Bizarre, Constitutional Law, Politics, Society

Indiana Legislation Would Require NFL Teams To Refund Tickets Over Anthem Protests

Milo_Smith196px-National_Football_League_2008.svgLike many football fans, Republican Rep. Milo Smith is fed up with the protests by NFL players during the anthem.  However, while many fans are staying away from games (setting record low attendance numbers), Smith wants to require NFL owners to reimburse fans who object to the protests.  While I have expressed my own opposition to any demonstrations during the national anthem, I have previously stated that the ultimate decision rests with the team owners.  Like any business owner, a NFL owner can insist that employees refrain from protests during employment hours and activities.  However, this legislation would raise serious legal concerns and would likely not survive a legal challenge.

Smith says that he went to a game for the Colts and saw the protest and “it didn’t sit right with me.”  One can certainly understand that response, but he then sought to require reimbursement without any express promise from the owners regarding the anthem.  Indeed, the playing of the anthem has changed over the years.

Smith seems to believe that, because he would not punish the players, the bill would pass constitutional muster under a first amendment analysis.  However, there remains the right of owners to allow or disallow such protests as well as problem of requiring payment on a non-contractual guarantee.  Owners currently take the view that players may exercise their free speech rights before games.  To penalize the exercise of such allowed demonstrations would still raise free speech grounds for a challenge.  There is also the problem of exclusively penalizing football team owners rather than other teams or activities for such protests.

I fail to see the legal basis for a claim against owners based on tickets sold to fans and I believe a challenge to Smith’s legislation would succeed if it exclusively forced NFL owners to refund tickets for any protesting players on their teams.

168 thoughts on “Indiana Legislation Would Require NFL Teams To Refund Tickets Over Anthem Protests”

  2. they should have the right to protest as much as they want and as long as they want … after all the national anthem has no place in a football game or in any game between us teams … it should be reserved for our national team only, representing the usa at an international game … the whole world is making fun of us …of how stupid we are

    1. after all the national anthem has no place in a football game or in any game between us teams…

      The NFL is a business and the owners of these teams have as much right to include our national anthem in their pregame activities as the fan has at protesting what those activities are. Purchasing a ticket doesn’t guarantee anything more than access to a seat in the stadium.

  3. “Populist” Trump has endorsed DeSantos for Florida Governor. The billionaire kingmakers in DeSantos’ camp include casino owner, Adelson, also, the co-founder of Home Depot (how much are the per hour wages for HD employees?), Foster Freiss (friend to the religious right and thrice-divorced Bannon) and hedge fund magnate, Mercer.
    Who are the elite going to orchestrate to tell the poor saps in Florida to elect Desantos so that they can benefit from trickle down?

    2. Elite in FL supported re election of craven DWS despite DNC primary rigging. DWS gets campaign contributions from corporate prisons and pay day lenders industry. Poor saps indeed!

      1. Seniors in nursing homes and senior apartments put her over the top. They will continue to vote for her although she deserves to lose.

      2. Canova is challenging her again but those same seniors might put her in again. The primary is closed I think.

    3. Linda, just because you’re deluded and misinformed does not mean that you must constantly reveal this about yourself in a public forum. (PS, Sheldon Adelson wasn’t a co-founder of home depot. He’s a casino operator. But I understand, who care about facts if you’re a Leftist. Leftists make up their own “facts.”)

      1. Ralph, a careful study of Linda’s commas reveal that she did indeed identify Adelson as a casino owner, and an unnamed co-founder of home depot. Being a good Communist, she then sneered at the wages at Home Depot.
        But, I believe that she does feel that she must constantly reveal her delusions in public forums.

        1. The biggest threat to free enterprise is not an American segment that you, Sierra, call “leftist and communist”- labels you picked up from Fox. Murdoch’s oligarchy demands monopoly or oligopoly, both of which are an imminent, clear and present danger to the competition foundation upon which capitalism justifies its benefit.
          Stop being mentally lazy and stop regurgitating the talking points of the richest 0.1%.

            1. Cohn’s actions expected. The elite orchestrated Bannon and (with help from?) he got stupid people to vote for Trump.
              Those stupid voters decided the baggage of Trump’s opponent was worse than the undeniable, lengthy and mammoth pattern of Trump exploitation. With an unfounded and colossal leap of faith, those voters threw in their futures with a President who predictably screws and lies to them, daily.

                1. Does a tax plan that cuts Medicare by 4% qualify? Do the actions of DeVos in regard to for-profit university fleecing count? Does the taxpayer funding for 1/4 to 1/3 of the President’s tenure so that he can golf, count? Does the doubling or tripling of security expenses because of the jet setting of his family count? Didn’t one of his cabinet members have exorbitant travel expenses and then, resign because the cost received scrutiny? Didn’t Mnuchin and Louise Litton see the eclipse in Kentucky at the expense of the taxpayer? Those people in line before Dec. 31, trying to get a deduction for local and state taxes for the last time have been harmed particularly because their tax cuts are limited to 10 years while corporations get to keep theirs forever. The native Americans who fought the XL pipeline rerouting from an affluent neighborhood to their land, watched with despair, Trump’s cheerleading for the pipeline. Trump’s first prisoner commutation was for a guy who had almost 400 “illegal immigrants” working in his plant.
                  But more important is what Trump promised… jobs brought back, banks held accountable, China’s trade imbalance ended. The only people who have benefitted from Trump’s actions are the richest 0.1%.
                  What is oligarch Murdoch reporting about it on Fox- oh, that’s right…NOTHING.

                    1. Your point?
                      I’ll tell you about a situation in Ohio about the same time. When the farm of well-connected owners was raided, the owners claimed that since a contractor did the actual employing, they had no idea, no idea whatsoever that hundreds of men, women and children from Central America were working at the farm that they operated. They were oblivious to the hovels on the farm, where hundreds of the workers lived.
                      You and I agree, there’s a special place in hell for exploiters and their defenders, Paul?

                    2. Linda – we had a situation here with a car wash chair that hired illegals. What the Sheriff’s Office did was run an underground investigation into all of the facilities, which took about two years. They were able to prove that the owners knew what was going on. The owners and managers all did prison time, they should be out now. The car washes have been sold to various entities as single units.
                      It was right after this that the federal investigation of Sheriff Joe began. Funny that.

  4. Republican Rep. Milo Smith is soon to find himself as the new darling of the Fox News crowd. Regardless of the notion legislating bigger government those wily GOP’ers often rally against.

  8. What’s next? If you don’t fondly salute the massive mural of trump displayed at all sporting events then you will be arrested? Or if men don’t proudly wear their MAGA hats at games they will be barred from entering all future sporting events. GOP making sure your rights to protest are curtailed unless those protests are state sanctioned and approved by Jesus Christ. SAD!

  9. What happened to smaller government republicans?
    indiana balances their state budget every year. Seems like they may not want to take on a bunch of wealthy egotists and their gaggle of attorneys.

  10. The owners of NFL teams are free loaders. No city and state was stuck with a bigger bill for an NFL stadium than Indianapolis and Indiana.
    If a community pays for and receives benefit from a project, then it ought to be owned by the community. Cut out the cabal of team owners and prevent the extortion embodied in their threats of moving teams.

    1. If a community pays for and receives benefit from a project, then it ought to be owned by the community.

      I went to Yosemite this year. I pay for that park and I receive benefit from it. Who do I petition for ownership rights?

      1. Olly – you can send your petition to me. I have full ownership of Yosemite. 😉

      2. Prior U.S. citizens bought the park for themselves and for future citizens and other visitors.
        Your ownership rights as a U.S. citizen are no greater than nor, no less than other community members, writ large.
        Republican politicians are striving, in service to oligarchs, to privatize, steal and plunder American treasures that are collectively owned.

        1. Your ownership rights as a U.S. citizen are no greater than nor, no less than other community members, writ large.

          Apparently the government would disagree. As a disabled veteran, I pay no fees for access to these national parks. Thank you by the way. 🙂

          2. Fees are unrelated to ownership. For example, oil companies may use plutocratic influence to drill in parks and pay fees. However, when the park lands, themselves, are given over to the oligarchs, it will reflect a transfer of ownership. Then, the amount of the fees charged may prohibit your visit. Or, the public may find it is unwelcome. Republican Chris Christi (friend of Trump) defended his exclusive use of a N.J. state-owned beach this summer. A photo was published and he was booed at a ball game for it.
            Further down in this comment thread, there is a discussion about proportional payment to buy items, based on hard work.
            The mercenary soldiers employed by Erik Prince’s Blackwater were paid 2, 3, or 4 times the amount that the G.I.’s were paid. Rhetorically, did they work that much harder for the income used to buy items?
            I’m glad the parks let you enter for free. IMO, it is your due.

            1. Here is what I read: qw;lekvufnvmap;erjnfilopig;o/d?SUIRjpdnc volgpi/ir;jfnpmreoo/rukfnmc
              r[ro[]qpeofrcmif. I’m glad the parks let you enter for free. IMO, it is your due.

              Thanks.

    2. I have a Packers share. The “community” indeed does own the Green Bay Packers. Unique in pro sports.

    3. Kinda like the way Venezuela took over U.S. owned companies in their country? That’s the government behavior you endorse?

      1. The U.S. just destroys entire countries – its citizens, businesses and all — just not the natural resources found in them.
        That’s the government behavior you endorse?

        1. You’re responding to Linda’s desire that all NFL teams should belong to their communities? Because that was the comment I was responding to.

          1. Sierra,
            Don’t the tenets of free enterprise explain that business owners invest in and then, recoup the costs of doing business from their customers? Why are taxes paying for NFL stadiums, clearly a cost of doing business? In the context of free enterprise, how does a person justify the extortion used by business owners when they threaten to move teams, in order to exact payments from taxpayers? How exactly does capitalism fit as a description for a monopoly that limits team expansion?
            (Listening to Fox, makes listeners mentally lazy.)

  11. NFL team owners tolerate the actions of NFL officials whenever they make calls that favor the Patriots, because the owners know that if N.E. is in the Super Bowl, a large TV audience is insured, and regardless of which team wins, a portion of the ad revenues generated is doled out to all of the teams in the NFL.
    Equally, if not more important is that a large TV audience is good PR for the league’s 2018 season.

    Major league soccer is corrupted, and so is the NFL – if only to a lesser degree.

  12. I don’t see how this would be prosecuted in court. Imagine if this were applied to a place like Disneyland. A customer catches Mickey Mouse “out of character” or their favorite ride malfunctions and sues for a refund. Should the Cleveland Browns ticket holders be able to sue because their team hasn’t won a game? The expectations of receiving a certain experience at these games could vary wildly. Should the owners be responsible to provide a refund every time an expectation of service is not met? As much as I would love to have everyone respect our nation, flag and anthem, I would never want to compel people to do so legally. Like anything else, just don’t buy the product or service.

  13. The bums signed contracts ,and inherent in these contracts, is to refrain from antics which have controversial subjects/demonstrations/the display of posters,signage,outside personal actions that may damage the team and league’s image,etc..
    And those “hiding behind the scenes” agents of theirs, who, should be chastised also for their clients questionable behavior/s, should be looked at by the league to see what is in their contracts in controlling their clients, that is, if possible.

  17. I like you Mr Turkey but not all businesses can do what you say. The NFLPA has a collective.bargaining agreement which specifies terms. I don’t know what is in it but blanket statement here is dangerous. Also, can an owner force a Canadian citizen to respect that US flag?

  18. I went to my first NFL game in 30 years last weekend in Phoenix. I won’t be going back to see another NFL game any time soon. I see no need to pay money to be assaulted by mindless and very loud music played over the PA system, to hear an announcer repeatedly say THIRDDD DOOOWWN in a loud obnoxious voice, or to sit through numerous TV-induced time outs, waiting for the action to resume. Plus the added bonus of the opportunity to overpay for mediocre food in the stadium.

    I have much better uses for money devoted to leisure activities.

    I don’t let players who refuse to stand for the National Anthem get me upset anymore than I allow some stranger sitting next to me at a game to get me upset if they don’t stand for the National Anthem. And I view refusing to stand due to indifference to be more problematic than refusing to stand in order to make a point.

    I’m not going to let someone I don’t know who doesn’t stand during the Anthem provoke me to anger or criticism. Their refusal to stand, to the extent it is a problem, is their problem, not mine.

    1. I haven’t attended a NFL game but I found that going to the movies is an experience best avoided. For me a fifteen dollar price is debatable in value but having to endure the rest of the punishments outweighs the entertainment value.

      In my youth theaters were refreshingly quiet as the audience began to enter the theater. Nothing was on the screen. Then perhaps five or ten minutes prior, previews were shown before the film.

      I only visit the theater once every two or three years so the change I realized is marked, not gradual. The volume now roars to such a degree I had to retreat to the men’s room to fashion earplugs using pieces of paper towel. For twenty minutes it seemed the captive audience is forced to watch banal commercials continually. Then the previews where, when I saw the remake of Blade Runner, of films that were only about explosions and ridiculous super-hero buffoons destroying whatever chance I might have to return for another movie.

      75 cents in the late 1970’s for a matinee was a great price and going to the movies was fun. Now, it is more like working overtime at a bad job. Better it is to wait a couple years when you can purchase the DVD at Goodwill for three bucks.

      1. Darren, We went to watch Darkest Hour last night. It’s well worth the horseshit @ theaters. Although, as I watched the crowd exit the theater, the average age was 55-60. Oldman deserves an Oscar. But, being an unabashed conservative, he doesn’t stand a chance.

    2. Don de Drain – the Arizona Cardinals play in Glendale, not Phoenix. I have not been to a game since the franchise moved here because I do not like the Bidwells who own the team, stadium, and surrounding area. St. Louis was glad to get rid of them. I would agree with everything you say.

  19. When politicians attempt to succeed in legislating their own pet peeves it seldom ends well for the citizenry.

  20. How patriotic of you. Maybe people who threaten peaceful protestors should be “penalized.”

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