The FBI lived up to its international reputation in nailing the suspected mail bomber within just a few days of the first appearance of pipe bombs at the offices or homes of leading critics of President Donald Trump. He is Cesar A. Sayoc, 56, a Trump supporter and body builder with a criminal history. He has appeared at Trump rallies and identifies himself as a Native American for Trump. He has been described as a “muscle head stripper” for his former boss.
Sayoc worked for Chippendales as a tour manager who was convicted of battery and grand theft in 2014. This long criminal record includes a 2002 charge with threatening to “throw, project, place, or discharge any destructive device.” That a second-degree felony resulted in one year of probation.
He filed for bankruptcy in 2012
Sayoc filed for bankruptcy, in June 2012. At the time, he was living with his mother and owed more than $20,000 to creditors, mostly banks.
His total employment income the year before was just over $7,500. And he had collected about $16,000 in unemployment between 1009 and 2010, according to the bankruptcy records.
Syoc also lost his Fort Lauderdale home in a foreclosure in September 2009, according to court records. He filed for bankruptcy protection in June 2012. The court records in that case state he had just $4,175 in assets, including a 2001 Chevy Tahoe with 285,000 miles, and $21,109 in liabilities.
His van is covered in pro-Trump and anti-Clinton, anti-CNN stickers.
If he was the sole actor I’m glad he is off the street. From the little announced in the media it seems he is more of a common fool criminal who left so much evidence pointing to him he quickly sealed his own fate.
A more dangerous mail bomber was the Unabomber who was more calculated and intelligent who spread his attacks over time and used that time to improve the sophistication and lethality of his bombs. Fortunately, for today’s bomber his unfettered determination was his undoing.
If anything this incident shows the folly of investing nearly the entirety of one’s thinking toward politicians and assigning them such importance in their own lives. It can lead to fanaticism and the diminishment in the quality and diversity of one’s world. For this man, his obsession with politicians will likely end with his imprisonment, probably for life if convicted. How could that be preferable to what his life was two weeks ago?
I’m glad if he was the bomber that he is not threatening others, but what a wasted life he earned himself.
the dream-scene a classic
but if you consider our microscopic scale in the cosmos, how much seriousness should we ascribe to our own existence, really?
Classic false-flag set up.
Tell us more, oh wise one
His Twitter feed?
https://twitter.com/hardrock2016
Cesar Altieri
@hardrock2016
Current Booking Agent/Sales/Marketing/Promotions/Project Mgr Live Events Seminole Hard Rock Live.Former Professional Soccer Player, Wrestler, Cage Fighter.
Sunny Isle Bch / Hollywood Florida
Joined April 2016
The headlines blare: “Crazed Supporter of Politician Threatens Lives of Members of Congress and Others!”
Blame the Politician!!
Damn that Bernie Sanders and the pal he never met, James Hodgkinson.
at the end of the day, don’t get too worn out, not on this or anything else;
just make sure you make it to the polls on november 6 and VOTE REPUBLICAN! MAGA
Amen!!
MAGA: Mueller is Arresting GOPers again. I can’t wait until the week after Election Day when Mueller goes to federal court to indict tRumpistas.
Poor Paulie, he’s going to spend the rest of his life in the slammer. But, but, but my foot. Haha!
Mueller’s knickname at the the FBI was “boa constrictor.” He slowly but surely wraps around the target and then squeezes. Seems Mueller has “squeezed” Cohen, Manafort, Flynn, Popadopolos and several others into flipping on Herr Drumpfenfuher. I hear Mueller flipped pancakes at ihop on summer vacation.
In Mueller I trust.
He’s an International Socialist too?
This guy was run by DOJ/FBI/DNC/Intel “deep state” actors.
No republican would want to willfully and deliberately damage the republican image 2 weeks before the mid-term elections.
Read the histories and paper trails of Lee Harvey Oswald and Sirhan Sirhan.
This guy was impressionable, amendable, gullible and capable.
This guy was nothing – this guy was everything – this guy was twisted.
__________________________________________________
“He was like a gypsy.”
“He would show up and do an individual act and leave,” Valentine said. “He was dancing for a guy out in Oklahoma too.”
“If you met him and had a cup of coffee with him, you would have thought — this was going back about 5 years — that he was a completely normal person,” Lurvey said.
– Washington Examiner
________________________________
“Mail bomb suspect Cesar Sayoc was a ‘big muscle head’ stripper, says former boss The man arrested Friday worked as a male stripper, his former employer told the Washington Examiner. Ohio event promoter Tony Valentine said he hired Cesar Sayoc to strip on multiple occasions during the 1990s and that Sayoc traveled the country for similar appearances. “He really couldn’t find his niche in life, and I guess he found it now,” Valentine told the Washington Examiner. “Back in the ’90s, he was running around from Minnesota to the Carolinas to Florida. He was like a gypsy.” Valentine, who vouched for Sayoc in 2014 a grand theft court case, said Sayoc was “a big muscle head” who “wanted to be a professional wrestler — that was his dream.” He can’t recall Sayoc ever discussing politics or abusing drugs, Valentine said. He cannot recall asking about his sexual orientation. “He would show up and do an individual act and leave,” Valentine said. “He was dancing for a guy out in Oklahoma too.” Valentine said he would not employ Sayoc again. “He’s like 900 years old now. I wouldn’t hire a 50- or 60-year-old stripper,” he said. Around the time he wrote the letter for court proceedings vouching for Sayoc, Valentine said he heard that Sayoc was working as a female strip club manager and performing on the side at an all-male strip club. The all-male club did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Although Sayoc had some Native American stickers on his vehicle, Lurvey said “I don’t believe that he was, or is” Native American. “If you met him and had a cup of coffee with him, you would have thought — this was going back about 5 years — that he was a completely normal person,” Lurvey said.
– Washington Examiner
Peter Strzok, “We’ll stop him.”
Lisa Page to Peter Strzok, “POTUS wants to know everything we’re doing.”
Lisa Page to Congress, “The texts mean what the texts say.”
All roads lead to Obama.
Right wing pubs that wouldn’t know the truth if the truth hit them between the eyes.
By that you are of course referring to the right wing of the left? Sorry In our country, A Constitutional Repubic the center IS The Constitution and is not the space between Marx and Engels…. or Carville and Sanders.
When are we going to get a delete feature? How embarrassing.
This story is so convenient
. We’ll see what we will see.
he could have a had a job for Duteurte whacking commies and drug dealers for real in the Philippines if he was really so inclined, but at 50 or 60 a former bodybuilder probably doesn’t have much aerobic capacity to hump it through the hot and humid bush all day looking for quarry.
maybe the guy watched “Taxi Driver” one too many times
https://entertainment.theonion.com/mohawked-aviator-wearing-robert-de-niro-idles-cab-outs-1830003840
so he didn’t have a pot to piss in, tried to find some belonging with the Trump train, now he’s volunteered for prison. Well, it’s 3 hots and a cot for life. No more worries. 90% likely he pleads.
But if he doesn’t plead it will be interesting. Maybe he’s not the only perp, maybe there’s a bigger picture. let the investigation pan out
You mean it wasn’t a left wing conspiracy, Antifa, false flag, mob, democrat, George Soros funded attack? How is Fox Spews and the other right wing, lying, fabricating, xenophobic, homophobic, bigoted blowhard machines going to describe this individual? Here comes the mental illness defense again…..
well, it could be those things, let the police do their job sir.
Five Dallas Officers Were Killed as Payback, Police Chief Says https://nyti.ms/29DfZ2w Is Obama’s anti-cop, pro #BlacklivesMatter rhetoric responsible for 5 Dallas cops executed by a man inspired by BLM?
4frespeech – his truck pretty much screams come arrest me.
NO, IDIOT, but thanks for trying – check is in the mail.
Name is Filipino. Knife fighting style. Looked that up and looked up name frequency too.
Cesar is a Spanish name and often Pinoys have Spanish first names.
He looks pretty Caucasian for a Pinoy however so maybe hafu
I have nothing against Filipinos, btw. Always been good to me. in general I think they are swell people. one bad apple maybe.
Agreed. Every Filipino I’ve known has been a good person. Generous and loyal. Lots of them in the military. This one just had a screw loose. It happens.
I think he is Cuban.
Five Dallas Officers Were Killed as Payback, Police Chief Says https://nyti.ms/29DfZ2w Is Obama’s anti-cop, pro #BlacklivesMatter rhetoric responsible for 5 Dallas cops executed by a man inspired by BLM?
Great job FBI! Hopefully this is the guy and that he is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Now the nation can go back to their regularly scheduled uniformed loathing of others based on nothing more than 2 letters in the alphabet.
Hopefully he acted alone. Like the Bernie Bro who shot up the softball field.
I’m not a Sanders supporter. Yet I question if that particular nutcase was a Bernie Bro.
Time says he was
http://time.com/4818385/steve-scalise-shooting-james-hodgkinson-bernie-sanders/
Bernie wasnt responsible for that nor was BHO responsible for the BLM nor is Trump responsible for this. People who want to push this angle should feel free to do so however, that too will help turnout in the primary
you know the old song: “every hand’s a winner, and every hand’s a loser”
That’s interesting because Sanders, like Trump, often projected an angry, fed-up tone.
honesty that is OK. they are politcians and this is a democracy. it’s appropriate for them to channel and reflect our feelings. that is one of their legitimate roles. it’s true even of social leaders in other types of social systems. people have anger and it is
an important part of life and existence
That’s interesting because Sanders, like Trump, often projected an angry, fed-up tone.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
False equivalency. Bernie has never advocated violence, unlike Trump who does so regularly.
unlike Trump who does so regularly.
In your imagination only, Nutchacha.
I’ll second that, Olly. You know that you did not mention the Secret Service, don’t you?
Don’t be surprized if this is used against you😉 in an “exchange” with L4B.
I was concerned that solving this might end up as a long term project, as in the Unibomber case or the anthrax mailings shorty after 9-11.
A Native American Trump supporter who is too stupid to build a bomb capable of exploding – even after 12 tries. That’s actually hilarious. 😹😹😹
name is Filipino. probably I would guess that he did not intend for the devices to detonate. If I was his lawyer and I m not, but if I was i would prepare that case if attempted murder charges were laid. not that it will matter too much, if the just got consecutive sentences for each more easily proven offense of making a DD– not sure if they can get that but maybe so– then it would lay him back in prison for 90 years or so
Florence Colorado is where this guy is headed, that’s the Supermax where they put all the political prisoners
I was thinking the same thing last night, that it was a political statement and whoever was sending the bombs didn’t intend for them to explode. But then I learned today that they were filled a “pyrotechnic material,” and some had to be destroyed by the FBI because they were considered too dangerous to transport to their lab. If he didn’t want any risk of explosion he would have filled them with an inert substance that resembled gun powder, such as ground up charcoal briquets or mortar.
charcoal can catch fire and would get you a charge of incendiary device too
i doubt he was thinking too much about the whole nutty scheme
I don’t understand why the devices had timers. How could he predict when it would be near the target? You’d think they would have triggers for when the packages were opened.
ha al, now don’t ask too many questions
most of all don’t start reading up on designs– you know the NSA has got us all in its pantopticon
and i will give you something more interesting. did you know that the Unabomber was a test subject in troubling and almost sadistic psychological experiments when he was a student at harvard?
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/06/harvard-and-the-making-of-the-unabomber/378239/
Mr Kurtz – according to the miniseries Manhunt: Unabomber, he was part of the MKUltra experiments at age 16. I do not know how true that is.
This is a “political statement”? No, this is a whacky tRumpista who sent bombs to prominent Democrats. It doesn’t matter one wit if the bombs weren’t capable of exploding. Thus RWNJ will spend the rest of his life at a supermax.
Either they’re disappointed that the bombs didn’t explode or disappointed that the false-flag theory did “explode”. Hence their fascination with the MacGuffin bombs.
This just in from the desert. The Rascal owners of Arizona’s ‘MinuteMaid Men’ have identified the culprit as the illegitimate son of Nancy Pelosi. Apparently they reunited a few years ago and have been plotting to make Trump look bad. Little did they know at the time they fomented their dastardly scheme, that nothing could make Trump look bad. It’s like stink on merde, there’s nothing to add. The package is complete.
Clearly, he’s deplorable.
Aside:
“…’enhanced’ sentencing…”. Seems to take a bit of the sting out of it.
Enhanced is an adjective historically associated with modifying words with a positive sentiment or disposition. The transitive verb form is defined as follows: to increase or improve in value, quality, desirability, or attractiveness.
Don’t you love when the government takes a perfectly good work like “enhance(d)” and makes it useless? It started with the TSA’s “enhanced” screening procedures. Yup, that sure improves the attractiveness and desirability of a good groping.
I don’t care who the suspect is or what he believes; I don’t care whether he supports Trump; I don’t care if this is all a ruse and he’s a hardcore Democrat.
Anyone who carries out an attack, competently or not, especially against public officials, should be eliminated from existence.
Partisan bickering about nutbags like this is ridiculous. Blaming anyone outside of the sender is shameful. It isn’t the orange moron’s fault, and it’s not CNN’s either.
When Republicans were attacked on that baseball field, I was equally enraged — irrespective of any ideological disagreements.
If they got the right guy, there should be one on the way to Elizabeth Warren for stealing his heritage.
PC Schulte,
– Come to think of it, Sen. Warren was one of the high-profile Democrats who did not get a mail bomb addressed to her.
Maybe the perp. excluded her as a target because of the possibilty of her 1/1064 Indian heritage.
Warren’s went to her teepee. Common error for another “Native American”.
mespo Did she go by horseback ? (I will never get tired of this subject. 🙂 )
I certainly hope so.
Mespo,..
– I think she was on horseback.
I saw a clip where Trump said to Warren: “and the horse you rode in on”, but they bleeped out the first part.
🙂
😂
Maybe bombs sent to Elizabeth Warren, Nancy Peolsi, Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer haven’t been discovered yet, or maybe he didn’t mail them yet. Privately, I predicted there would be bombs directed to Kamala Harris and Cory Booker before they were even discovered based just on the fact that they are also on Faux News and Trump’s hit list of “enemies of the State”. So far, the facts of this matter show:
1. The Faux News/Trump hateful rhetoric directed towards Trump’s critics has consequences. The bombs may or may not be duds, and may or may not have been intended as a warning. Maybe Sayoc isn’t any better at building bombs than he is at doing anything else in his life so far, but there was active explosive material inside the plastic pipe that could have been detonated intentionally or accidentally, and that places us all at risk. Postal facilities and postal trucks could have exploded, and airplanes or trains carrying the mail could have exploded and killed lots of innocent people. This isn’t some kookie nut case making a political statement. This is an act of domestic terrorism. People like Sayoc lack the insight and judgment to place in proper perspective the over-the-top hate spewed by Trump, Limbaugh and Faux News. I wouldn’t discount the possibility that Sayoc could have believed that the targets of his bombs were actual “enemies of the State”, and that his actions were patriotic.
2. Trump affirms, once again, that he is no leader, that he is not patriotic or altruistic, and that he is incapable of rising to the job of POTUS. No wonder the rest of the world laughs at him. But, it’s not funny.
OK, so they were acts of terror. no problem with that part of your first point. Charge Sayoc with such crimes give him due process and then lock him up.
point number 2 simply does not follow. and those assertions about Trump are false. Trump has responded to this appropriately
part of the problem the mass media has with Trump is that he dares to criticize them. ‘
they think they are untouchable, which is why they wet their pants over Kashoggi. Saudis are ruthless violators of human rights day after day but let them harm a hair on a journalist’s head and now the Saudis are in trouble.
If you think that just because a guy named Sayoc committed crimes that Republicans must now tuck tail and run from Democrats, SORRY AINT GONNA HAPPEN!
Shepard Smith (his time slot) made the mistake of conflating Trump’s rhetoric with the bombs. Chris Wallace set him straight as they got into an unplanned heated debate. If they put up a youtube of that discussion it will be worthwhile. Shepard Smith ended up looking very bad.
Smith has long been given to outbursts and exhibitionistic displays. Not sure what his appeal ever way.
He has appeal and has done some good work when it is divorced from political opinion.
No, pal, “the media” reflect the views of the majority of Americans. They are correct to point out that Trump is a chronic, habitual liar, and that everything he does is for personal vainglory. He has no leadership skills, and has no desire to try to bring this country together, including now, during this historic domestic terrorist attack on former Presidents, members of Congress and others who have criticized him. Because the media, other than Faux News and Limbaugh, call him out for his consistent missteps and failures, he has enouraged his disciplines to attack reporters and hecklers. He is a disgrace to the office of POTUS.
No, pal, “the media” reflect the views of the majority of Americans.
No one remotely familiar with the opinion research done on journalists would utter this remark.
If they’ve nailed the right guy, the Democrats will be flogging this for years.
Your attitude reminds me of those Germans who refuse to forgive the Jews for the Holocaust
J S
There’s a lot of that mentality on this blog. Trump supporters are just like that.
Dems and Reps are more and more like the Hatfields and McCoys. It doesn’t matter too much which side you are on. You just better keep fighting because you face a worse situation if you don’t.
It’s easy to say that’s wrong and your enemies should lay down their arms. Except your enemies may have a reasonable suspicion of what you will do with your arms if they give up theirs first.
So no I won’t be the first to surrender verbally or under any conditions of conflict. But I’m up for horse trading. If Dems want to help deport the 10 million or more illegal immigrants here, I am willing to help ban bump stocks. How’s that for starters? Lets negotiate and you peaceniks can show me how it’s done
Kurtz: What about all these illegals who are arrested and it turns out they’ve been deported 5, 8, 10 times before and they just turn around and come right back? “Deportation” doesn’t mean anything without a means of keeping them out permanently, so I wouldn’t give up ANYTHING in exchange for a promise of deportation.
giving up bump stocks aint much I know. but deportation is a big consequence, pretty much for any illegal from anywhere besides mexico. the multiple deportation criminals are almost always mexicans. contiguous border, obvious reason.
Kurtz
Obama broke all records on deportations. He deported the criminals and repeat offenders, over a million in one year. He left those that came as children and were in school, productive, had equity, etc for later. Now, your offer to ban unnecessary deadly machine-gun accoutrements in order to have done something that is under way, is telling.
How about we just take each issue, one at a time and deal with it. No need to blame, trash talk, lie, etc. In other words, no need for Trump and his mob mentality. Everything is fine in this country, basically. The fact that an imbecile like Trump is held in check to some degree is proof of that. It is a case of refinement and fine tuning. The revolutionary moves would be: banning all financial support of candidates beyond $100 per registered voter, registering every gun owner and gun regardless of how they procure their arms, back checking and educating every gun owner, etc. If the second amendment is so sacred then why are the NRA and the gun manufacturer lobby advocating less control, or allowing idiots to obtain arms. That doesn’t appear to be anything other than making money. The second amendment does not include one word that speaks of the individual. The entire amendment pertains to the group, the state, the society, the militia, etc. How did it get so perverted.
issac – the newer states (after the first 13) have the militia as part of their Constitutions. Now I have aged out of Arizona’s militia, but I am available for the Home Guard.
Paul
Does the Home Guard have a Rascal Brigade, mechanized infantry?
issac – have you seen Dad’s Army? All nine seasons are available on Netflix now.
i agree that Obama deported many aliens. I think his policy about DACA was not all that bad. I also think it was good to let a lot of visa overstays slide when there were weak asylum claims for example. I would like to see ten million illegals deported but the quirky Jeff sessions wants to focus on a few thousands of people with minor paperwork problems instead.
I agree that bump stocks are insignificant. They can be banned or not and it wont matter.
Background checks are already very detailed and sufficient. They were not always sufficient and the NRA appropriately helped gun dealers and lawmakers and regulators fashion good background checks that did not infringe lawful gun buyers. Presently, they go through a lot. I have bought a gun or two in my day and I know.
Limits on donations can’t work here. it’s unconstituional. Not just under one single case Citizens United but the whole logic and body of law that went into it that is very sound. It’s just a system that people don’t like, and i can understand why, because corporations buying elections is a very real thing and it’s scary. Well, lots of aspects of freedom are scary. Hell life is scary. Not sure that can be fixed.
thank you for your feedback isaac
Kurtz
Background checks can be thorough but are not involved in every gun purchase. You can buy a gun privately, at a show, swap meet, online, etc and skirt the check. The point that escapes most everyone who gets riled up at ‘more’ regulations is that if the second amendment is perceived by gun enthusiasts as so sacred then why is in not sacred in realizing that only those who are responsible, not criminal, well trained, registered, etc should have guns. There is no original address to the individual and guns as it is perceived today, in the second amendment. The time spoke of security of the state, society, militia, not the individual first. It goes without saying that at the time it was written almost everyone had a firearm. What is written pertains to the society having the right to protect itself. The second amendment is founded in the society. Today it is founded in the individual. That is the reason the right to bear arms has become so perverted and dangerous to the very society to which it originally pertained. There is no total fix for this uniquely American problem. However the carnage can be reduced without taking away the guns of rational, responsible, and accountable Americans. That was the goal of the NRA until the coup of ’77.
Bump stocks represent the extreme condition of what constitutes an ‘arm’. A bump stock turns a weapon into a virtual machine gun. The very demand for unlimited fire power, weapons beyond hunting rifles and shotguns and handguns illustrates that dangerous facet of the extreme gun enthusiast. The second amendment was not written with the idea of fire arms being toys but for protection against foreign threats. The extreme positions today are, for the most part, based on the right to own weapons for other than protection and hunting but for perverse self expression. It’s a question of dialing back gun ownership to pre ’77 perspectives.
Limiting donations is not unconstitutional. It is only recently unScalia. Scalia perversely interpreted the Constitution. Unfortunately with this SCOTUS we will continue to have an oligarchy. The US is unique in allowing its political candidates be purchased. This results in an oligarchy. As a Republic or Representative Democracy, or whatever, this is not what was intended. If other countries, almost all democracies, can control the influence of the mega wealthy, restrict them from purchasing politicians, then why can’t the US? The answer is the same as the health care insurance problem, it has evolved into a problem that owns the government. To replace the private system with a single payer system would put between half a million and a million people out of work. A wealth generating segment of stock investments would disappear. Thousands of CEOs would have to go without multimillion dollar salaries. Thieves like Rick Scott would not become Governor of Florida, twice. People would pay a third the monthly premiums they pay now for the same care. The money saved could go to improve America’s 25th place to where it was decades ago.
The problem with the second amendment is that firearms have become a commodity regulated by the first rule of capitalism, what the market will bear. The same problem exists with health care. There are certain basics that should be rights and not subject to the rules of the private sector. There is no shortage of ways to make money.
Isaac you are right that there are no checks for private sales
I predict within 10 years that private sales will have to be routed through an FFL. that will come next. and probably no big deal, but a lot of people will ignore it.
as to no reference to individual right in 2d amendment, wrong. WRONG
when the word “people” is used in bill of rights, THAT IS THE WORD THAT MEANS INDIVIDUALS. there are three persons in the constitution: the federal, the states, and the people. the people means individuals. the second amendment protects BOTH the states and the people. simple. read US v Heller and all a hundred law review articles if you want to understand this better than that long screed indicates that you presently do.
as for bump stocks, who cares, take them away. trust me i can make any semiauto bump fire. it’s not aimed fire so it’s just goofing around. i don’t care if i cant goof around with guns thats never been the point… but they have to craft the rules so that they don’t try and take away all semiautos or then it will be denied
as for capitalism i am a small time investor in gun stocks and the only good news that comes when democrats get elected in big numbers is all the gun nuts go stock up and sales go through the roof. sales are down under Trump and it will be the one consolation if Dems get a blue wave that sales go back up. so Kapitalist Kurtz has hedged this outcome in advance
i am also a proud investor in cigarettes, booze, and gambling for the record. pot stocks i would get into if I knew the right one but for now they all seem like so much hot air. LOL
Kurts
Heller vs Schmeller; the Constitution is revisited through the political bias of the SCOTUS from time to time. If a SCOTUS that truly reflected the majority of Americans was to be in place, it would support a second amendment that is interpreted to focus on ‘the people’ to mean the society; a society that comes with a rational perspective of responsibilities and regulations-‘well regulated’, rather than this hillbilly perspective of ‘me and my guns’. As Joe Rogan mentions, ‘The Constitution was written with a feather.’ The founding fathers would be flabbergasted to see that next to nothing new has been written in way, way, over two hundred years. A similar situation exists with the Catholic Church. There were many more than now but still way, way, too many in the administration of the Catholic Church, along with too many followers, that believe that pedophilia is just something that comes with administering god’s words, as they are interpreted. The recent history and ongoing actions of the Pope and his crew illustrate this, along with of course, sincere hopes that the sins of the fathers will stop, somehow. One can hear the religious fever when a gun nut speaks; and especially when Wayne the Peter pontificates. Ollie North, well?
Your reflections illustrate cynicism and perverted perspectives of that which is interpreted from East to West, 180 degrees, depending on who buys whom. These problems, guns, health care and insurance as a commodity instead of a service of the government, the status quo in coal and other fossil fuels over renewables, etc are there and exacerbated due to the oligarchy that is the US. If ever there was a step backward it is Trump and the oligarchs that he leads. They purchase and control both sides.
Taking private funding out of elections is not a violation of the Constitution but a violation of a perverse interpretation of the Constitution. When someone states that something in the Constitution means, ‘exactly that’, someone else can, with equal argument, state that it means something completely different, even the opposite. The second amendment means whatever the SCOTUS of the moment decides it means. Something to ponder, Scalia referred the issues of gun control to the states. There is no way to control the transfer of arms between states. The second amendment is a federal paper. At this time, only someone who is biased can argue one way or the other. This flexibility negates the sanctity of the Constitution.
Your generalization says it all (this is not a compliment)
You know Mr. Silberman, somehow I think sending non functional ‘bombs’ in the mail to Democratic politicians and injuring no one in the process is an activity at some distance from murdering people in job lots of 400-500 every day at 8 different locations over a period of 2 or 3 years. But that’s just me.
The low end of your range is 2.34 million and the high range is 4.38 M. You know that the exactly and precise number was 6 million and there is no room for argument or you can be charged in Europe for thoughtcrime.
Sorry but I must consider reporting this verbal outrage to the ADL, Tabbarrok the Denier. And to think I was just praising you! My Noachide status is in jeopardy. I must rescue it.
That refers to the toll at the eight extermination camps, which was around 3 million. Millions of people died elsewhere.
Of all the people you might waste air defending, no clue why you’d pick Robert Faurisson, David Irving, or Mark Weber.
free speech topic on blog, why i refer to faurisson’s persecution as you rightly inferred,
irving, because you brought him up, and I think he’s got a lot of really excellent books that are under-rated for their abundant detail and sound use of primary sources, just a pet peeve i have about some history books is that they are a bunch of propaganda and not a lot of detail
weber, dont care I said
Most people are familiar with the names of the major concentration camps – Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Dachau, and Treblinka, for example – but few realize that these were not the only places where Jews and other prisoners were held by the Nazis. Each of the 23 main camps had subcamps, nearly 900 of them in total. These included camps with euphemistic names, such as “care facilities for foreign children,” where pregnant prisoners were sent for forced abortions.
The Nazis established about 110 camps starting in 1933 to imprison political opponents and other undesirables. The number expanded as the Third Reich expanded and the Germans began occupying parts of Europe. When the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum first began to document all of the camps, the belief was that the list would total approximately 7,000. However, researchers found that the Nazis actually established about 42,500 camps and ghettoes between 1933 and 1945. This figure includes 30,000 slave labor camps; 1,150 Jewish ghettoes, 980 concentration camps; 1,000 POW camps; 500 brothels filled with sex slaves; and thousands of other camps used for euthanizing the elderly and infirm; Germanizing prisoners or transporting victims to killing centers. Berlin alone had nearly 3,000 camps.
These camps were used for a range of purposes including: forced-labor camps, transit camps which served as temporary way stations, and extermination camps, built primarily or exclusively for mass murder. From its rise to power in 1933, the Nazi regime built a series of detention facilities to imprison and eliminate so-called “enemies of the state.” Most prisoners in the early concentration camps were German Communists, Socialists, Social Democrats, Roma (Gypsies), Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuals, and persons accused of “asocial” or socially deviant behavior. These facilities were called “concentration camps” because those imprisoned there were physically “concentrated” in one location.
Millions of people were imprisoned, abused and systematically murdered in the various types of Nazi camps. Under SS management, the Germans and their collaborators murdered more than three million Jews in the killing centers alone. Only a small fraction of those imprisoned in Nazi camps survived. As many as 15-20 million people may have died in the various camps and ghettoes. JVL
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This is the link to Allan’s excerpt:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/how-many-concentration-camps
are you guys telling me the number now ranges from 3 million to 20? Now there’s quite a range. I thought they had it nailed down to 6 million not one less nor more. shows how little I know.
No Kurtz. A lot of people were killed in concentration camps. The Jews that were killed were killed because of their religion and Hitler wanted all Jews killed. Gypsies, Catholics, political prisoners, etc. were also killed. The number of Jews killed is commonly thought to be 6 million but I have read newer estimates approaching 7 million. The rest that were killed were non Jews.
“shows how little I know.”
If you say so. Loads of people have been killed based soley on ideas being promoted. In this case it was religion killing around half of the Jews of the world. Then again we can consider people like Stalin and Mao that outside of war and for reasons of power with their leftist ideology killed over 100 million people in the last century.
Kurtz, did you ever see the movie Schindler’s List?
no and I don’t intend to. i have had enough guilt thrust upon me in life for being a white male gentile and I don’t need much more.
that they were grossly and unjustly oppressed as a group I don’t dispute.
it seems that as in every other event of mass homicide, the exact number of jews killed versus died of typhus or starvation or summarily executed is actually not known. However, when I say this to people, in the past, having learned my lesson not to bring it up anymore, but when I was younger and stupider, I observed that this made people very uncomfortable to hear.
Also, a couple decades ago, plus or minus a few years, still curious about such things, i looked at the census of Jews in Axis controlled areas on the eve of the war. That was number A. I subtracted the “6 M” figure that is not-debateable i have often been told and was fully aware of back then. That was B. The result C, and, as Norman Finkelstein observed in a book released around the same time, does not equal D, which is the number of “survivors” that have been asserted to have been in existence after the war by major jewish organizations.
That means that either A, B, or D must be wrong. Maybe all three are wrong. Either the census was wrong, or the number was not really 6, or the number of survivors was exaggerated; or perhaps all three figures were off. How wrong? How would I know. I am not a demographer nor a historian. But I do know that people can’t debate that because then they are antisemites and obsessed and discredited. And indeed, some people are obsessed with it. and are cranky and wierd as hell. So I just leave it alone.
For me It’s a small topic but one that comes up with other major “genocides” and “ethnic cleansings” of recent history such as the Armenians or the Cambodians to say nothing of the Chinese or the Ukrainians.
I went to a museum and saw a big exhibit about Chinggis Khan. It seems that there is no question he exterminated many cities and perhaps tribes or nations. I wonder if a thousand years hence people will have a fawning exhibit about Hitler like the one I went to about Hitler.
I would bet that in a thousand years the human race itself will probably either have evolved into some kind of AI borg or will have gone extinct.
Schindler’s list is not about guilt. Somewhere along the line you seem to focus your attention where it probably doesn’t belong.
The film is not for creating guilt. It so happens to be a brilliant movie brilliantly directed and in the age of color and more was done mostly in black and white. The acting was superb. Everything about the film made it the great film it was. Your reaction tells alot about you.
I don’t think you need feel guilt or believe that their lives were worth more than other lives. I do think your reliance on Finkelstein is misplaced for much of what he says doesn’t ring true to the many expert historians of many religion and races. There are a few writers that are popular among anti-Semites. Generally anti-Semites search out those writers but sometimes people read them and become confused. That is always an unfortunate event.
The actual number or the religion of the people killed isn’t the most important bit of knowledge to be gained from that period of history. More important are the lessons that we should learn. I’ll let this rest for the time being, but you might still wish to see Schindler’s list.
[Finkelstein, a self hating Jew, needs a reason to blame Israel and not the terrorist organizations that exist in the area that kill their own as well as Israelis. He probably feels that the Holocaust is a way for Jews to exploit their existence in the Middle East when they have been there for thousands of years.]
well finkelstein can speak for himself. I don’t know what a self hating jew is. Jewish people call a lot of Jews that. one of my friends said “the jewish antisemites are the worst ones of all!” I asked him ” do you include Saul of Tarsus in that?” (Saint Paul) and he laughed and clapped me on the back.
I find that my jewish friends– i have few, but a few I do have– they are less punctillious about what is antisemitic and what is not, than many gentiles who seem overly cautious to debate anything with jewish people
“They are less punctillious”
Kurtz, a lot of the racism and anti-Semitism seen isn’t real. It’s due to ignorance.
I feel free to criticize various jewish groups or historical figures or things, at the same time I feel free to be friends with jewish people, and appreciate their good points of the jewish nation as such, throughout history and today, here there throughout diaspora and in Israel. I also feel free to criticize israel, just as much as I would criticize any Arab state, or group of arab peoples. I don’t try and be fair, because i am partial to my own kind, just as I observe most jewish people and arabs to be. In that, I feel closer to most jewish people and most arabs, than the average white anglo saxon christian american who is scared out of their boots to identify with their own kind.
in this way, I feel that i have been enriched by the diversity of my social interactions with Jews and arab people, so that I feel free to be ethnocentric like them. but, I know as a white guy I am supposed to be totally atomized, so I keep frank comments like these under “nom de plume”
you know, when you grow up in America, you interact a lot with Jewish people and a lot of their stuff is familiar to us either by personal contact or via Hollywood which Jewish actor Ben Stein boasts is controlled by Jews. Just as Henry Ford used to say a long time ago. But contact with Arab-Muslims is more at arms length. There is not the familiarity. But, I have had some contacts with Arab Muslims especially Syrians and Palestinians that have been really wonderful and I think on the whole I like them. In America that is; who knows what the experience would be if one were an American stuck over there. I don’t want to know, actually. by contrast, again, Americans who visit Israel almost always enjoy the trip and are treated well. I think there is some credit due on that account.
I did know some Saudi-Kuwaiti types back in school however and I can tell you i severely did not like them at all.
I hope the readers don’t mind me typing such things out; one of things I failed to be sufficiently trained upon in my extensive education was “judging everyone by their own merits as an individual, etc etc etc.” I failed that course. I have always been interested to see a person’s ethnicity and religion as an integral part of themselves and I always will. And i Think only a fool is blind to such things.
Kurtz, it’s not your criticism that stands out rather your intense focus. Discussion is fine and more than one point of view is frequently understood to be quite Jewish. You have a right to personal preferences. We all do.
“ I know as a white guy I am supposed to be totally atomized, “
I don’t think that should be, but that sounds like a leftist argument that is had by many of all religions and races. They are wrong. Many Jews and Arabs identify with the left. As we see on this blog, many Americans do as well. I think they are all wrong.
“Hollywood which Jewish actor Ben Stein boasts is controlled by Jews. “
Jews have been productive people. Look at the Nobel Prizes handed out. But also don’t forget that when one is denied ownership of property and has to be able to leave on a moments notice with only what they can carry they gravitate to things that are not easy to find or take away. Knowledge is one of those things. Thus lawyer, doctor, teacher, etc. might make sense as would diamond merchants since diamonds are very portable and can be easily carried.
Outside of their political environments Arabs and Jews can get along real well. My favorite NYC comedy club and eatery years ago was owned by an Israeli and run by a Syrian. Israelis generally have very little difficulty dealing with Arabs as long as they know they aren’t going to be killed.
also yad vashem says there were 6 death camps but who’s counting eh?
or maybe just 2 fixed chambers with zyklon b and others were supposedly just mobile gassing vans using diesel fumes. i cant keep it all straight
whatever. just remember kids, don’t ask two questions that will really piss folks off:
a) why didn’t they just shoot them? and
b) how many russians died during the war?
those always get you in trouble. questions bad, atonement good!
1. The war in the Soviet Union was fought largely in the Ukraine and White Russia, so why not ask about White Russians and Ukrainians?
2. The tremendous loss of life can be attributed to bad strategy, bad tactics, and the usual dysfunctions of Soviet political economy. One critic of Stalin offered a guess that about 3/4 of the death toll in the Soviet Union during the war could be attributed to these factors.
3. You want to invest in BS of the Irving / Weber variety, go ahead. Waste of time and rather malicious. I’m sure Giraldi loves that stuff.
I don’t know about Giraldi’s interest in such things but I get your point
Irving is good, I have his books, he’s a cad, but a good historian. Check him out for yourself, be like him and check the primary sources and not just all the secondary ones. Weber is another matter, not worth discussing.
Overall, the exact numbers of any historical tragedy are less important than the order of scale.
As for the Russians I think their losses were considerable, on an order of scale that most students of history don’t appreciate. But the Russians do not have much influence in the American media nor universities of course so their story is untold.
Getting into Ukraine in the 30s is a whole other story, of course, and an even more unwelcome conversation in academia
One person’s suffering versus a whole group. Or as against a different group. this is an interesting theme in human experience.
Irving is good, I have his books, he’s a cad, but a good historian.
He sold books on military history. He was also a self-described ‘moderate fascist’. At one point he offered an estimate that 75,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis. (Mark Weber preferred 350,000 Jews dead from all causes) I don’t think he’s one of the world’s better historians.
Who cares if he called himself one thing or another .VIlfredo Pareto was a fascist, but more importantly an economist; and Heidegger was a nazi, but more importantly a philosopher. Von Braun was a nazi and employed Jewish slave labor at peenemunde but he was also a rocket scientist who helped put a man on the moon. And Irving is a basically just a historian.
The book on the Nuremberg Trials is a fantastic book and if memory serves, it foot-notes that the Red Cross at one time in the early postwar period estimated about a million and a half dead jewish people victimized in the war. Normally the Red Cross is considered a credible source. I can’t look it up now, but I Found this on the internet. The flaws and merits of such numbers are not my business; but as a lawyer I know I better not discuss it in Europe if I want to stay out of jail.
https://www.quora.com/Theres-an-International-Red-Cross-document-stating-that-the-total-death-toll-across-World-War-2-concentration-camps-was-around-270-000-Is-it-fake
He is a military historian and his use of primary sources which he personally collected makes him a cut above the usual historian which just takes one secondary work after another to justify their conclusions. Irving did history the old fashioned way by talking to people who were there and analyzing primary source documents.
Dont get too distracted by all the self promoting stunts he took at various times in his life. He is a cad and probably a bad person in many ways. That does not matter if what you are looking for are good books.
you know long before he and deborah lipstadt were fighting it out in court in England over whether or not he was an antisemite, he wrote a book on Dresden which was good enough for Kurt Vonnegut to quote at length in Slaughterhouse Five.
https://www.dailybulletin.com/2017/09/09/so-it-goes-a-kurt-vonnegut-tour-of-dresden/
it seems that the numbers of civilians David Irving estimated to have been burnt alive by the Allied bombing of Dresden was incorrect and has been revised downwards. That is fine. Maybe it was 75,000 in one night instead of 150,000, or whatever. A matter for historians I think not me. But a lot were still burnt to a crisp and probably for little strategic purpose other than to murder enemy civilians. aka “Terror bombing”
i put that phrase into google and it gave me “Strategic bombing” instead. maybe this is what Sayoc believed he was doing: something “strategic.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II
A little counterpoint which is perhaps worth recalling in this article about a recent series of attempts at terror. Sometimes it’s all a matter of perspective. Be careful what paths you take, never know where they may end up
Why would I care one way or another about what Kurt Vonnegut had to say?
I care because the guy’s self-declared as a creep. That in turn affects what he fancies an interesting historical problem is and it affects how he weighs evidence.
thats legit
nonetheless, his book on Nuremberg Trials is superb. I have read and heard a lot about Nuremberg and his book is one of the few that brings out some of the really salient details. at least from a legal perspective.
Contrary to whatever mass media has depicted of him, Irving’s books suggests that he was a big admirer of Churchill and Roosevelt. And, Robert Jackson, US Supreme Court justice, who was chief prosecutor at Nuremberg; and I think you took a dig at him once here. You might find his stock going up if you read that book
just making conversation.
He was a popular writer whose work sold well in a particular moment. That’s it. I’m not depriving myself of anything consequential by ignoring him. There’s only so much time in a day, a week, a year. My interest in imaginative literature extends to what has survived, to what illuminates the warp and woof of daily life in an era that interests me (e.g. the 1920s), and what engages me generally. He doesn’t hit any of those tick boxes.
well as an american who was a POW in Dresden the time of the terror bombings, he had a rather unique perspective and his book is considered fine literature
but you can care about whatever you like, i just offered it.
He had a long history as a peddler of unserious, radical chic politics.
Vonnegut’s was a socialist. But thankfully he was not a politician. I like some of his books. Hemingway was very nearly a communist but his books were fantastic. So what? Do you deprive yourself of the joy of art and literature because the creators had defective views on politics or sexual vices? That would be a loss not for them, who are dead, but for you. They are gone and we are enriched for their laudable works not their stupid opinions.
He is a military historian and his use of primary sources which he personally collected makes him a cut above the usual historian which just takes one secondary work after another to justify their conclusions.
No, it makes him a cut above Howard Zinn. Unless they’re writing a synthesis, ordinary history faculty will use primary sources as a matter of course.
it foot-notes that the Red Cross at one time in the early postwar period estimated about a million and a half dead jewish people victimized in the war. Normally the Red Cross is considered a credible source.
1. What was he citing in that footnote?
2. When was the estimate made, how was it made, and for what purpose?
Somehow, I suspect if you got your hands on the document to which he was supposedly referring, you’d see he was playing games with you.
maybe. read the book and let me know. i am not going over it again.
there are some interesting things about Nuremberg many people don’t appreciate, like many or most of the charges being ex post facto laws, that would have been illegitimate charges under American or English law, if not Soviet– and at least one of the participants Rudolph Hess was sentenced for a whole lot of crimes in which it was impossible he played any active significant part since he was locked up in England the whole time, and for which he stayed locked up until he died.
my mind is drawn to anomaly; what does not fit the pattern. i had a pattern given to me in my education, and it’s become intellectually amusing for me to sound out the anomalies in that education.
usually, when you resolve an apparent anomaly, you find a deeper pattern that is even more meaningful that the simpler one that overlaid it in the first place.
the pattern that a lot of people don’t appreciate is how much and how fully, all justice is victor’s justice, fundamentally; and yet how much procedures matter. in america one of our most intriguing political features is the large number of elections we hold every two years. it is a marvel of the peaceful transition of power, and we are to behold and particpate in it yet again in weeks
DSS – back in 1961 when I was doing a high school paper on German concentration camps, the total number of Jews dead from all causes was 5.5 million. Then you added 500,000 other dead of all causes in the camps. Total roughly 6 million.
so hes Filipino or partly so. interesting. eventually someone will ask: was he born in America?
Oops, I just did
Why do you think he’s Filipino? He claims to be Native American. By looking at him, I would have guessed a white Hispanic, probably Cuban, but who knows these days. Everybody wants to be an Injun. Except me.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6321331/Suspected-mail-bomber-identified-Cesar-Altier-Sayoc.html
guys says he’s Filipino and so is name.
male strip show organizer? Sounds a little nutty. most promoters are nutty. almost a job requirement
CNN and Enigma will be bummed that they can’t blame it on a white male.
Oh. that won’t stop them from trying. This is nectar for the gotcha gods.
True but it’s like Swift Boat Veterans or whose the War Monger Party or the Victimizers of Women Party. So you just ignore them. State the facts and do it for the rest of the readership who aren’t machine tools of the lefts Collective. Better to just use them then discard them .
hell it seems like hillary was the war monger’s favorite but who’s counting eh?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-sachs/hillary-is-the-candidate_b_9168938.html
The Democrats? No such thing. This isn’t a democracy and they are far from being democratic. Now if you are referring to the socialists in one of their three main names etc. that’s different.
But I’m not into other world, mystic, subjective fiction. Life is too short. Why waste it?
TTTP: I dunno, since Sayoc is a minority and was employed as a male stripper, the Dems will likely go easy on him. Like they are with Keith Ellison. Now if he were a white male, we’d never hear the last of it.
Yes, exactly like how the Republicans keep flogging the fact that the man who shot Steve Scalise was a Bernie Sanders supporter.
It’s not mentioned much all things considered, and he tried to kill a mess of people, nearly succeeding in re Steve Scalise. Nothing that’s emerged about this case indicates it was anything but a prank.
I wonder how TttP might feel if he were to receive one of these packages in the mail. Would it be simply “a prank”? Is it “a prank” when one attempts to terrify or terrorize another human being?