NBC’s Chuck Todd Repeatedly Airs Clip Previously Denounced As Misleading And Wrong

Chuck Todd
Screenshot/Youtube

We recently discussed the false tweet sent out by CNN’s White House reporter Jim Acosta that mocked White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany for saying that “the science should not stand in the way of this.”  That quote was artificially clipped to leave the diametrically opposite impression from what actually said.  The clip suggests that McEnany was dismissing science when she was actually highlighting scientific work supporting the position of the White House.  While Acosta later sent out another tweet noting the real meaning and his colleague Jake Tapper corrected the false narrative on the air, Chuck Todd on Meet the Press decided to play the misleading clip not once but twice on Sunday. It was not just running an overtly misleading clip but defiantly doing so after other journalists have challenged the erroneous impression left by the clip.  The misleading quality of the clip clearly was not the problem but the appeal for Meet the Press.

Todd has previously had to apologize for misleading clips.

In Thursday’s briefing, McEnany repeated President Trump’s call for children to go back to school in the fall.

“The science should not stand in the way of this, but as Dr. Scott Atlas said — I thought this was a good quote, ‘Of course, we can do it. Everyone else in the Western world, our peer nations are doing it. We are the outlier here.’ The science is very clear on this. For example, you look at the JAMA pediatric study of 46 pediatric hospitals in North America that said the risk of critical illness from COVID is far less for children than the seasonal flu. The science is on our side here. We encourage localities and states to just simply follow the science. Open our schools.”

As noted earlier, she is clearly citing the science as supporting the position of the Administration. However, Acosta clipped the statement to make it sound like McEnany was dismissing the relevance of science:  “The White House Press Secretary on Trump’s push to reopen schools: ‘The science should not stand in the way of this.’”

 

The quote was McEnany referring to a scientific study and, right after the line quoted, McEnany said “The science is very clear on this.” She then two lines later added “The science is on our side here.” The entire quote was McEnany raising a scientific study that supports their position.  It is akin to a McEnany saying “National security is not relevant because the Defense Department report supports this policy” only to have Acosta tweet “The White House Press Secretary: “National Security is not relevant” in White House policy.

Tapper stood by the facts over the narrative when his colleague CNN’s chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta repeated the same false narrative that McEnany was having an “alternative facts kind of moment.” Tapper responded: “If I could just say, Sanjay,. I think she was just trying to say that the science shouldn’t stand in the way because the science is on our side. I don’t know that all of the science is on their side- and certainly, this White House, their respect for science knows bounds, let’s put it that way, but I think that’s what she was getting at.”

As bad as that incident was, it is not nearly as bad as Chuck Todd ignoring the controversy and the correction to repeatedly air the same misleading quote. NBC was fully aware that the clip was not just misleading but that it conveyed the opposite of what actually was stated in the press conference. Todd showed a clips of people denying the need to wear masks and stated that Trump is just ignoring the risks to push to open schools.  He then showed the clip of McEnany that is edited to cut off her reference to scientific data, making it sound that she was saying that the science was not important. The clip was played a second time later in the show. Unlike Acosta, Todd did not later even add the fact that McEnany continued on to cite the scientific support for the policy.  He just left the misleading clip without any clarifying context.

Screen Shot 2020-07-19 at 11.47.14 AM

If an ill-considered tweet is a venial sin for Acosta at CNN, this is a mortal sin for Todd at NBC. This was no careless tweet, but an airing made long after the false account was flagged during the CNN controversy.  It is another example of how the echo-journalistic model not only undermines the faith in the media but actually undermines the effort to fully inform the public on the pandemic. Rather than focus on legitimate questions about the Administration’s efforts, Todd instead knowingly played a false gotcha clip.

I have previously criticized Todd for omitting facts that did not fit an attack on the Administration as well as his repeated disparaging comments on Trump supporters.  These is a fundamental change in the media where such shaping of facts to fit a narrative is now commonplace. Indeed, it is essential to maintain an echo-journalistic model.  The result however is the lost of reliable sources to unbiased news. Many disagree with this President and this White House, but they still want to receive an accurate account of what is being said and done in Washington. Instead, they are given news tailored to the preference of hosts who see facts as the a type of clay to be shaped into a preferred image for public consumption. There comes a point where you are not long informing but indoctrinating the public.

I was hoping that Todd would return to the earlier clips to offer some context to show that the clip was the opposite of what McEnany clearly meant. However, the show ended without any context, clarification, or correction.  This week, many of us praised Chris Wallace for correctly challenging President Donald Trump for misstating the position of Joe Biden on defunding the police.  Biden’s comment on shifting funds was widely defended in the media as not meaning that he would support the more radical calls to defund the police.  Journalists objected that the statement was taken out of context in the interview. I agreed with that objection. Yet, those same voices in the media are silent on this false account against the White House and Todd went further in replaying the clip twice on the air.

436 thoughts on “NBC’s Chuck Todd Repeatedly Airs Clip Previously Denounced As Misleading And Wrong”

      1. Now it begins

        Mother of 19-year-old fatally shot in CHOP zone files wrongful-death claim against city

        Seattle Times staff reporter

        The mother of a 19-year-old Seattle man fatally shot last month in the Capitol Hill Organized Protest (CHOP) zone filed a wrongful-death claim against the city of Seattle on Monday, alleging city officials created a dangerous environment by allowing protesters to occupy six city blocks and that police and fire officials failed to protect or medically assist her son.

        The city has 60 days to respond to the claim before a federal lawsuit can be filed, according to attorneys representing Donnitta Sinclair Martin, the mother of Lorenzo Anderson. Anderson was shot multiple times early on June 20 at 10th Avenue and East Pine Street, near a boundary of the CHOP zone before it was cleared by police on July 1.

        Anderson and a 33-year-old man, who was critically injured, were shot that Saturday and were transported in private vehicles to Seattle’s Harborview Medical Center by volunteer medics. At the time, demonstrators had largely blocked off law enforcement access to the CHOP area amid demands for racial justice and calls to defund the Seattle Police Department (SPD).

        Anderson, who had just graduated the day before from Seattle’s Interagency Academy, was pronounced dead at Harborview. A suspect has not been arrested.

    1. It is time for all out Civil war…..Lock and Load. Bring it
      No more nice guys with Democrats….they are the enemy

      +++

      At the close of his program on Monday night, Fox News Channel’s Tucker Carlson revealed The New York Times had a story in the work that would divulge the location of his home, which could potentially put him and his family in harm’s way.

      “Last week, The New York Times began working on a story about where my family and I live,” he said. “As a matter of journalism, there is no conceivable justification for a story like that. The paper is not alleging we’ve done anything wrong, and we haven’t. We pay our taxes. We like our neighbors. We’ve never had a dispute with anyone. So why is The New York Times doing a story on the location of my family’s house? Well, you know why. To hurt us, to injure my wife and kids so that I will shut up and stop disagreeing with them.”

      Carlson reminded viewers that nearly two years ago, another such incident occurred when he was residing in Washington, D.C. An angry mob showed up at his home, forcing his wife to hide while the angry mob aligned with Antifa vandalized his home.

      He said the same could occur if The New York Times followed through with the story.

      “Editors there know exactly what will happen to my family when it does run,” Carlson continued. “I called them today, and I told them. But they didn’t care. They hate my politics. They want this show off the air. If one of my children gets hurt because of a story they wrote, they won’t consider it collateral damage. They know it’s the whole point of the exercise: To inflict pain on our family, to terrorize us, to control, we say. That’s the kind of people they are.”

      1. All this proves is how stupid the left is.

        And how poorly they foresee the consequences of their own actions – or pretty much anything else.

        1. https://hotair.com/archives/john-s-2/2020/07/22/patricia-mccloskeys-gun-didnt-work-police-received-prosecutors-ordered-reassembled-declared-lethal/

          Patricia McCloskey’s Gun Didn’t Work So A Prosecutor Ordered It Reassembled And Then Declared It Lethal. Manipulating and altering evidence in order to target and prosecute an innocent citizen. This is what Democrat officials do with the powerful position of public trust they hold. They don’t prosecute the lawbreaking “rioters” who break into private property; no, they go after law abiding citizens because Politics.

          Anyone who votes to give Democrats MORE power in this next election is literally INSANE.

      2. You have a right to protect your family- do it and making a preemptive strike on The NY Times could be found to be self defense??

  1. Seven States Report Record Number Of Hospitalizations. Texas & Florida Lead.

    Seven states — across the South and in the West — and Puerto Rico reported a record number of coronavirus patients hospitalized on Monday, further illustrating the rise in severe infections in some parts of the country.

    Florida, where virus hospitalizations have climbed steadily for at least 10 days, reported more than 9,400 covid-19 patients in the state’s facilities — second only to Texas, which alone accounts for nearly a fifth of the infected people hospitalized in every state that reports such data, according to a Washington Post analysis.

    Georgia, Nevada, Kentucky, North Dakota, Arkansas and Montana had each also reported new highs in hospitalizations by early Monday evening. Some states still do not report their current levels of patients hospitalized, a closely watched metric because it can presage changes in the rate of deaths, which often lags weeks behind reported infections.

    As of 8 p.m. Eastern time, states had reported 388 new deaths. It’s the highest number recorded on a Monday — when the figures are typically far lower than average — since mid-June.

    Edited from: “Seven States And Peurto Rico Report Record Breaking Levels Of Virus Hospitalizations”

    This Evening’s Washington Post

        1. Hospitalizations and deaths are tracking each other very closely – there should be about a 10 day lag between hospitalizations and deaths.

          Both numbers are NOT subject to significant error, and more importantly whatever error they have is the same now as it was in April.

          Further both numbers are reflections of what matters.

          Absolutely we hope no on gets C19, But lets not make that a justification to burn down the economy.
          What matters is serious illness and death. People who are hospitalized are typically seriously ill.

          So both those matters.

          Positive tests are not tracking hospitalizations or deaths. They are completely out of sync with each other and we are 8 weeks past their separating. If the increases in positive tests were meaningful – hospitalizations and deaths would have spiked.

          Not just small increases that were expected from reopening. But serious jumps.

          The test numbers are correct but they are no longer closely correlated to the actual infections and therefore they can not tell us trends.

          1. Actually that *should* be a 14-21 day lag between hospitalizations and deaths. More accurately, a 14-21 day lag between high capacity hospitalizations/ ICU inundation and deaths.

              1. It’s not ‘me’ John. It’s just the data. Good thing about data is it isn’t determined by personality. Florida, Texas and California death rates are on the rise now and will be building because their hospital inundations are just happening now. Let’s talk in 2 weeks on this…

                U of Washington death prediction models (that’s the model the White House used repeatedly in the spring) = 225k dead by November 1.

                1. “It’s not ‘me’ John. It’s just the data. Good thing about data is it isn’t determined by personality. ”
                  Except in Johnny B world Data is just made up.

                  “Florida, Texas and California death rates are on the rise now”
                  And would have to increase by a factor of 5 to hit NY.

                  “will be building because their hospital inundations are just happening now.”
                  Except they aren;’t – we have been over this repeatedly.
                  We are 6+ weeks past when the increases in hospitalizations would have had to increase dramatically.
                  We are 4+ weeks past when the increases in deaths would have had to have been dramatic.

                  “Let’s talk in 2 weeks on this…” and then two weeks, and then two weeks.

                  The Triump of leftism is always just arround the corner, the proof of your ideas is always just arround the corner.
                  But we never get there.

                  “U of Washington death prediction models (that’s the model the White House used repeatedly in the spring) = 225k dead by November 1.”
                  This would be the same model that predicted 4.4M dead in February.

                  1. “This would be the same model that predicted 4.4M dead in February.”

                    Do you have a source for that, John?

                    1. From February ? By now Google has demoted the link so far if I typed the exact name of the article it would be on page 23.

                    2. I’m sure you’ll find it, John. If it’s out there, it should be easy to find.

                    3. I have written programs for professional epidemiologists. And… With the data available in January I wrote a program. It predicted that _if nothing were done_ around 2 million would die in the USA. In February I used the same model but with more current data. 1 million. In March, still more data, again different results: 750,000. Running it today with the current data I have a total projected of 250,000, that is about 125,000 more. These projections do not include discovery of a vaccine. They also include the usual way virus immunity works with no re-infection.
                      *Models reflect the current knowledge and change drastically over time.*

                  2. John, you’re beyond help.

                    What you’re saying, by holding out the single worst epicenter of Covid as the standard for all epicenters of Covid, is that if they don’t touch the same exact numbers the pandemic doesn’t exist. It’s a logical fallacy. A willfull shoving of your head in the sand.

                    Not to mention you seem to be incapable of viewing data beyond a political/philosophical/ideological lens.

                    You’re in complete denial and may only be capable of hoping to understand the broader points of what is going on…

                    Some help: there is a pandemic in the U.S. the original epicenter was found to be in Washington state, soon to be followed by New York. 2/3’s of the cases in NY can be traced to a strain of Covid entering from Europe, the U.K. in particular, but also Italy. Covid ravaged NY and then through mitigation efforts the numbers receded. The rest of country went hog wild and relaxed Covid mitigation efforts believing it couldn’t get as bad where they were as it did in NY. They were flagrantly wrong. The president, knowing his re election chances were in the toilet due to his bungling of the pandemic, forced republican governors to live in denial, to try to mock Sweden with its ‘herd immunity’ approach to spike the economy by election day. That strategy is blowing up in his face. The only thing holding the economy from absolute free fall is stimulus from the Fed at this point.

                    And lo and behold, the pandemic spread to fertile ground, big population centers in the south and southwest. While the number of deaths may not equal the exact rate of NY due to improved therapeutics, hospitals in metro areas are indeed becomming overwhelmed as we speak and deaths will continue to rise in those areas. Why do we know this??? Because the broader pattern is exactly mimicing NY.

                    No amount of reductive statistical games can put lipstick on this pig.

                    1. No one in their right mind Trusts CNN.

                      You are correct the TMC data is just for Huston – the single largest City in TX almost double the size of the next largest, with almost 10% of Texans.

                      I beleive the current deaths per Day in TX and FL are each about 100 and the trend line is flattening.

                      The peak deaths per day in NY was 2000.
                      TX is 50% larger than NY, FL is 2M larger than NY with a much larger elderly population.

                      The data to support your hysteria is just not there.

                    2. “What you’re saying, by holding out the single worst epicenter of Covid as the standard for all epicenters of Covid, is that if they don’t touch the same exact numbers the pandemic doesn’t exist. It’s a logical fallacy. A willfull shoving of your head in the sand.”

                      You are making that judgement based on a spike in the single least reliable metric will disregarding the fact that all the far more reliable metric are completely at odds.

                      “Not to mention you seem to be incapable of viewing data beyond a political/philosophical/ideological lens.”

                      Again – you use a single metric – one that is sampled, which is OBVIOUSLY highly sensitive to sampling rates.
                      And insisting that is more meaningful than two other metrics that are more reliable, though lagging indicators, and that have no sampling issues. We record actual hospitalizations and deaths – not a random sample of hospitalizations and deaths.

                      “You’re in complete denial and may only be capable of hoping to understand the broader points of what is going on…”
                      There are no “broader points”
                      Facts are facts
                      Data is data.

                      “Some help: there is a pandemic in the U.S. the original epicenter was found to be in Washington state,”
                      Current data indicates this hit CA weeks before anywhere else.
                      “soon to be followed by New York. 2/3’s of the cases in NY can be traced to a strain of Covid entering from Europe, the U.K. in particular, but also Italy.”
                      So ?

                      “Covid ravaged NY and then through mitigation efforts the numbers receded.”
                      Nope, it receded exactly as it did elsewhere in the world – because it went as far as it could.

                      In the event you were actually successful, NY would remain permanently vulnerable – you could NEVER end the lockdown.

                      You have the odd notion that at the start a few people can spiral up to 100K rapidly,
                      But after lockdown has been released a few infections will No longer spiral back up.
                      That defies logic, that defies epidemiology.

                      Any population remains vulnerable to infection so long as the virus still exists and herd immunity has not been acheived.

                      This is absolute – there is no magical exception for states that locked down.

                      NYC is not in good shape right now because it locked down.
                      It is in good shape because it got slammed and there are very few people who are left that can be infected who have not already.

                      And if that claim is false – NYC will remain vulnerable forever.

                      There is no policy that C19 respects.

                      C19 does not say – oh, the people of NYC locked down, wore masks for a while and Social Distanced,
                      now that they have relaxed – I wont infect them.

                      Your argument is nonsense.

                      “The rest of country went hog wild and relaxed Covid mitigation efforts believing it couldn’t get as bad where they were as it did in NY. They were flagrantly wrong.”

                      The number of deaths and hospitalizations in TX and FL would have to increase 10fold just to reach the level of carnage in NY.

                      Even if as you claim TX and FL are dramatically spiking right now – they STILL have a very long way to go to reach NY levels.
                      At current rates it could take 3 months for TX and FL just to reach NY death levels.

                      ” The president, knowing his re election chances were in the toilet due to his bungling of the pandemic, forced republican governors to live in denial,”

                      This is the most idiotic of your claims. Neither Trump nor GOP governors can hide dead bodies any more than Cuomo and Murphy can.

                      Dead is dead – and there is no “denial” that will work.

                      One thing I will actually agree with you – if FL and TX reach the level of death that occured in NY.
                      There will be a Blue Tsunami.

                      What you are hiding from is that no matter what happens with positive tests – which appear to be headed down again – which is exactly what you would expect if the spike is do to increased testing – or a combination of testing and small increases as the country comes out of lockdown, that the reverse is likely true.

                      If there is no spoke in C19 deaths – if C19 fades quickly as seems likely – then rather than a Blue Tsunami, there will be a red one.

                      “to try to mock Sweden with its ‘herd immunity’ approach to spike the economy by election day.”

                      I have no idea what Trump or GOP governors are saying.
                      If they are attacking Sweden – which I think is what you are saying – they are wrong.

                      But what they say, does not matter.

                      Something you completely fail to grasp – not just in C19, but in everything.

                      What HAPPENS is what matters.

                      “That strategy is blowing up in his face.”
                      So you say.

                      Regardless, I am not making an argument based on “republican strategy”. I have no idea and no interest in that.
                      My argument is based on observed reality

                      TMC hospitalizations is up again today – by 13. Not 10,000 The 7 day trend is still down.

                      Ycharts deaths increased – exactly as I predicted – the data has a 7 day cycle. The new deaths – 1082 is maybe 10% higher than expected,
                      But still trending flat or down.

                      “The only thing holding the economy from absolute free fall is stimulus from the Fed at this point.”
                      This is a shared delusion of the left and the right. You can not “hold the economy together” with money.

                      Absolutely an engine needs grease to operate, but you can drown the engine in grease and it will work worse not better.

                      The only economic metric that matters is the value produced. PERIOD.
                      No matter how much money Dems and Repubs dump into the economy, no matter how much the Fed dumps in,
                      either we produce or the economy TANKS. PERIOD,

                      Trump/no trump Fed/no Fed.

                      “And lo and behold, the pandemic spread to fertile ground, big population centers in the south and southwest.”
                      Absolutely C19 likes dense populations – where it burns out fast.

                      “While the number of deaths may not equal the exact rate of NY due to improved therapeutics”

                      New Cases in FL are rising 9.71% – your metric. In NY they are rising 5.16%

                      In NY 90K have been hospitalized thus far.
                      In FL 22K

                      FL deaths are 5K
                      TX Deaths are 4K

                      TX+FL combined have almost 3 times the population of NY
                      and 1/3 the total deaths.

                      TX+FL combined are doing NEARLY 10 times as well as NY.

                      Things can get far worse in TX + FL and DeSantis and Abbot will still have done several times better than Cuomo

                      Every blue state with a population over 10M has more deaths than either TX or FL, several Blue states have more deaths than TX and FL combined.

                      CA which has locked down tighter than any other start in the country – that has near perfectly followed your rules – has had C19 far far far longer than anywhere else and still has more daily cases than TX or FL.
                      And has more deaths than TX and FL combined.

                      “hospitals in metro areas are indeed becomming overwhelmed as we speak and deaths will continue to rise in those areas.”
                      TX and FL have more than double the ICU beds of NY. And no data I am seeing shows them being overwhelmed.

                      “Why do we know this??? Because the broader pattern is exactly mimicing NY.”

                      Except they have not – Postive tests have spiked in many places – they are rising in NY too
                      MA, MD, NJ. CO, DE, in fact all of the country have rising numbers of positive tests on a 14 day trend.

                      “No amount of reductive statistical games can put lipstick on this pig.”

                      It is not called reductive games. It is called proper statistical analysis.

                    3. Yeah, you’re right, John. Dr. Birx got on the phone with 11 major cities today and warned them to undertake major mitigation efforts…, but hey, no problem, John Say maintains it’s all good. No problem at all.

                      K, Trumper.

                    4. This is quite interesting.

                      It is unfortunately long. It does not answer alot of questions. The experts here are not in agreement with some of what I have said.

                      Frankly they are not in agreement with pretty much anyone, the one thing they do agree with me on – is that the government response has been universally bad. Lockdowns are stupid.

                      They noted that Germany’s success appears to be entirely due to dealing much more effectively with people in elder care and nothing else.
                      And that failures throughout the rest of the world are entirely do to bad handling of elder care.

                      That lockdowns appear to have made that far worse not better.

                      They have pretty universally determined that policy decisions had nothing to do with science.
                      That they were driven by panic and the need of those in government to do something.

                      And they were very upset that despite getting massive amounts of data on C19 – that with very few exceptions none of the data is what we actually need.

          1. It’s an independent summary website that states it represents data from 10% of the population.

              1. They summarize bits of data for them. And as an aside, the summary posted is 10 days old. With a virus that has a 4:1 transmissability rate, easily twice that plus of the flu, 10 day old data is ancient.

              2. There is also no redirect. This page is being hosted on a cdc web server.

                Regardless, this attack is complete idiocy.

                If it is just a source the CDC is linking to so what ?

                CDC does NOT link to JHU, ycharts or world-o-meter, yet no one is trashing those.

                Bad data is going to be outed very quickly today.

            1. If there was a 400% increase in hospitalizations:

              It would show up EVERYWHERE.
              the cdc,
              the media,
              everywhere.

          1. John, Paint Chips requires even intellectual nourishment to be chewed before he can digest it. That is why he likes Wapo and the NYT. All he wants is a headline that acts as a talking point.

  2. Florida’s GOP Governor Retreats from Order To Open Schools

    Florida’s largest teacher union sued Gov. Ron DeSantis and Education Commissioner Richard Corcoran to overturn a sweeping emergency order that requires schools to physically open five days a week, saying the policy bypasses local leaders and defies national public health guidelines.

    The complaint, filed in circuit court in Miami-Dade County, comes as the Republican governor sought to distance himself from the order, which has been targeted by teachers, parents and school leaders since it was issued July 6.

    The order has made Florida a political battleground over schools and the coronavirus outbreak as DeSantis and Corcoran followed the lead of President Donald Trump and Education Secretary Betsy Devos, who are pressuring states to fill classrooms with students in the fall. DeSantis in recent days has backpedaled, making it clear on Monday that the mandate wasn’t his idea and putting his own education secretary on the defensive.

    DeSantis on Monday put the order squarely at Corcoran’s feet and said it was meant to give parents the option of sending their children back to school.

    “I didn’t give any executive order, that was the Department of Education,” DeSantis told reporters.

    The Republican governor advocated for students who would benefit from in-person classes, like those with special needs and learning disorders. He repeated his belief that most counties can safely bring students and teachers back to campus.

    Edited From: “Florida Teachers Sue As DeSantis Distances Himself From School Openings”

    Today’s Politico

    1. And yet MSNBC had a pannel of doctors and every single one wanted schools reopened and thought it would be safe for their kids.

      This is all left wingnut panic porn.

    1. “It’s Terrifying, Bill Maher is the voice of reason in the room!” Haha.

  3. TRENDS TRUMPERS DENY

    These trends are not really happening according to Trump supporters on this blog. Apparently middle-of-the-road USA TODAY is part of the ‘Deep State plot to take away our liberties and wreck Trump’s great economy”.

    As parts of the U.S. continue to suffer through surges of new confirmed COVID-19 cases, a USA TODAY study found Tuesday that almost half of all states are spiking at a faster rate than they had been in the spring.

    Idaho, for example, is adding 20 new COVID-19 cases per hour after it was adding five in early April. This comes as many states have been forced to pause or roll back their plans to reopen their economies in order to mitigate the transmission rate and not overburden health care capacity.

    Florida, meanwhile, saw its four-day stretch of new single-day cases of at least 10,000 snapped Tuesday but reported a record-high of new single-day COVID-19 deaths with 132.

    Gov. Ron DeSantis has blamed increased testing for the surge of new cases.

    “We have to address the virus with steady resolve. We can’t get swept away in fear,” DeSantis said Monday at a news conference. “We have to understand what is going on, understand that we have a long road ahead.”

    Some recent developments:

    The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement announced a Mexican man died of COVID-19 in Florida.

    Hawaii extended its quarantine to Sept. 1, delaying its plan to allow out-of-state travelers to visit the island by one month.

    Face masks are required in about 3,700 U.S. Walmart locations. The CEO says a national mask mandate is “something on our minds.”

    📈 Today’s stats: The U.S. has surpassed 3.4 million cases with over 136,000 deaths, according to Johns Hopkins University. Globally, there have been 13.2 million cases and over 575,000 deaths.

    📰 What we’re reading: Los Angeles and San Diego schools are going online-only in the fall. Will other districts’ reopening plans defy President Donald Trump and do the same?

    Edited from: “Coronavirus Updates: Almost Half Of All States Are Spiking At A Faster Rate Than Spring, USA Today Study Finds”

    USA TODAY, July 14

    1. REGARDING ABOVE:

      VIRUS SYMPTOMS TRUMPERS WON’T EXPERIENCE (or will they?)

      These days, “coronavirus” is often prefaced with the word “novel,” because that’s precisely what it is: a new strain in a family of viruses we’ve all seen before — and, in some form, had. According to the WHO, coronaviruses are a large family of viruses that range from the common cold to much more serious diseases. These diseases can infect both humans and animals. The strain that began spreading in Wuhan, the capital of China’s Hubei province, is related to two other coronaviruses that have caused major outbreaks in recent years: severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) and Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS).

      Symptoms of a coronavirus infection range in severity from respiratory problems to cases of pneumonia, kidney failure and a buildup of fluid in the lungs. They may appear 2 to 14 days after exposure to the virus.

      In April, the CDC added new symptoms of the disease to its list, shedding more light on how the virus infects patients. The symptoms now include: a cough, shortness of breath, fever, chills, repeated shaking with chills, muscle pain, headache, sore throat and a loss of taste or smell.

      Covid-19 spreads more easily than SARS and is similar to other coronaviruses that cause cold-like symptoms, experts have said. It appears to be highly transmissible, and since cases are mild, the disease may be more widespread than current testing numbers suggest.

      Edited from: “What You Need To Know About The Coronavirus”

      The Washington Post, 7/15/20

      1. C19 is a form of SARS.

        Aside from that – what is the point of your mass cut and paste ?

    2. Seth every day suggests or states that Trumpers this Trumpers that. he issues and endless flow of insult. the intended effect of this, per his masters in the mass media, is to discourage and demoralize Trump voters.

      This continuous repetition is a form of social engineering like advertising. of course advertising is exactly how the mass media makes its bread so they know a thing or two about it.

      the best way to avoid the toxic mind-bending repetition is to ignore and not consume mass media. newspapers, if they want to be useful, would tone down the editorial, and get more interested in reporting factual news and not persistently framing it to suit their covert and overt agendas. But we understand, dont we Seth, that’s what it’s all about.

      That’s what keeps guys like the richest man on Earth Jeff Bezos, signing the checks at Wapoo, his plaything. It is required to spin all news to fit HIS editorial interpretation. He doesn’t need to micromanage this– he just hires people who think like he does. and they bow, scrape, and jump to serve his interests as surely as Pravda ever licked the boots of the Russian Communist party

      See there is a sort of pretense in our American adulation that a “free press” which is owned by plutocrats and oligarchs will necessarily be less propagandistic than state run media.

      I have come to believe, this is false. Actually, private mass media is probably just as bad as state run media, it’s just nice to get a wider slate of offerings when private funding is allowed to support it. So it is only marginally better in my view than state run media. Yes and on a good day,. state run media can be better.

      You know I follow Chinese state run media, on the internet, and a lot of it is patently self serving nonsense, but a lot of it is pleasant and harmless information.
      Wouldn’t that be a nice change, to have some pleasant images instead of just constant bilge and dreck?
      Leave it to the CCP to actually come out with a product that even a guy who sees them as a dishonest foreign adversary can watch, and not get half as annoyed as when I take my daily dose of obnoxious NPR. If the CTV is Stalinist, the NPR is Trotskyite. I would rather hear Stalinists sing their anthems, than Trotskyites kvetch and complain, any day of the week.

      I’ll give you an example. One would never expect an interesting story like this to come out of the toxic sewerpipe of negativity that is NPR. But CCP serves up some interesting local information

      1. Yeah, Kurtz, we should avoid mainstream media and take our cues from Trump (and become a third world nation).

        1. third world nation big cities are safer than the USA now. figure that one out. because people like you want the US to be destabilized. for now. because you think then Trump will be gone.

          but maybe you wont be able to put the genie back in the bottle Seth. kind of like the USA paid the mujahadeen, then decades later, the very same in the form of Taliban had to be faced.
          See, today’s freedom fighter, can become tomorrow’s terrorist.

          so now Democrats rah rahs cheer on the BLM and think, they’ll break stuff now, people will blame Trump, then when Biden wins, we shut them down.

          Well Seth you may get your chance to see if all the riot and BLM etc sort of thing doesnt end up biting your guy in the butt if he wins. It sure will be interesting to see if it bears out

          1. Even the presumption that if they break stuff Biden wins is dubious.

            When polsters ask who do you think will win in Nov. rather than who are you voting for the result is 55:39 Trump.

            When polsters ask undecided voters is they know someone who they think is voting for Trump but not telling – 68% claim to know a “secret Trump voter” and 22% claim to know a secret biden voter.

            This question is used by polsters to try to ferret out secret voters among Undecideds.

            It is the standard trope of talking about a friends problem when you are talking about your own.

            If the economy does not start to improve – Trump loses.
            If C19 really nails us this fall – Trump loses.

            If peoples fears of violence increase – Trump wins.
            If Biden does not hold up through the debates – Trump wins.

            If Biden does not distance himself from the left Soon – Trump wins.
            At the same time if far left voters do not show up in large numbers for Biden – Trump wins.

            I have bumped into more people who I never would have thought would buy a gun – who are planning to buy a gun.

            I honestly think if the election was held today – it would go very close to 2016.

            But there is a long time before november and that time does not favor democrats.

            1. I tend to see it exactly oppostite, John. Every day is another day for Trump to show his incapablility of doing the job. I think there’s a greater chance of Trump not being on the ticket in November than of him winning (short of massive Russian help).

              1. Why after the past 4 years would any sane person still be trying to sell the Russia nonsense.

                The only assistance Russia provided to a US presidential candidate was to Clinton.

                The actual assessment of CIA analysts which Brennan kept from getting into the ICA was that Putin favored Clinton.
                that he could work with her, while Trump was likely to keep his campaign promises and that would (and has been) bad for Russia.

                But here you are selling collusion delusion II.

                I think you should provide your MOCA score.

                “I tend to see it exactly oppostite, John.”

                You tend to see most everything in the least logical way possibile.

                Regardless, assuming you vote, your assessment will be about 1/120Mth of the total

                “Every day is another day for Trump to show his incapablility of doing the job.”
                The fact that Trump does not do as you wish is not incapability.

                Much of what you wish, is not within the constitutional powers of the president.
                Trump too often talks authoritarian – but unlike Obama he sticks within his constitutional powers.

                “I think there’s a greater chance of Trump not being on the ticket in November than of him winning (short of massive Russian help).”
                Ah, this nonsense again.

    3. “TRENDS TRUMPERS DENY
      …Idaho, for example, is adding 20 new COVID-19 cases per hour after it was adding five in early April. This comes as many states have been forced to pause or roll back their plans to reopen their economies in order to mitigate the transmission rate and not overburden health care capacity.”
      —–

      It makes on want to laugh at the hysteria from Paint Chips. Some of us pay attention to all the numbers but yours are selective demonstrating a damaged intellect.

      A horror that during opening and increased testing Idaho had about 20 new cases. I wonder what Paint Chips was thinking when NY had 2,000 deaths in a day many coming from nursing homes where the patients were killed by left wing stupididy. That doesn’t concern this mental midget.

      1. Alan, the entire state of Idaho has about the same number of people as The Bronx. It is also one of the most isolated states in the country.

        1. Paint Chips, it was your article that was dramatising Idaho and Covid deaths. I guess you didn’t bother to read the article before you posted it. Maybe you should critically read anything you post before doing so.

          Why not get back to NY with nearly 2,000 deaths a day and the democratic leadership that killed thousands of old people.

        2. I would also note that isolation means it took a long time to actually get a toe hold in idaho.

    4. And yet the death and hospitalization rates are declining.

      You do know that at some point this all runs into a wall.

      If the death and hospitalization rates do not rise – either

      you have to admit that the rising number of positive tests (that have started to decline) are an artifact of increased testing

      OR
      That C19 has magically become less fatal.

      OR
      That there really was no spike in actual cases,

  4. Trump just passed over 20,000 lies or misleading statements per the Washington Post count.

    I would put the mainstream media’s record against Trump’s any day of the week.

    Turley tries to both sides this by saying here is one Trump lie, here is one MSM out of context quote, so see it is the same.

    It is not the same. Trump lies so many times people cannot keep up with all the lies. He creates an entire gaslit world for his followers to live in. Mcinaney, too, lies many many times on his behalf. Let’s talk about those.

      1. well, here’s a big list of fibs

        then there are the big lies and omissions the media makes. those are lies and omissions of framing: language that excludes as a possibility, something the writer dislikes.

        so for example. there is no reckoning now, of the massive BLM protests effects on spreading the COVID.
        there is no accounting for the fact that if the COVID restrictions could shut down other lawful activities like church and work, then, the COVID restrictions most certainly applied to public PROTEST gatherings too.

        but the mass media has zero discussion of that legal reality, none

        in fact I have not heard it mentioned anywhere outside of Breitbart, that the COVID restrictions applied to the large public protests. which they definitely did.

        Oh, we heard about it a lot when the gun guys crowded into statehouse in Lansing. But nary once with the hundreds of massive Geo Floyd protests.

        And they absolutely did have a causal effect on the current wave

        in other words, the blue state and city leaders that green lighted the big protests, and refused to shut them down,. were doing an unconstitutional omission, by not enforcing an emergency pandemic restriction — which i have always maintained here, contrary to some liberterians — i have always maintained that the restrictions were lawful in theory.

        but if they are not applied fairly to citizens, then they are unlawful. and yes they have been applied unlawfully and unfairly.

        only BLM gets to have unlimited public assembly now, everybody else is limited to like ten people. oh, and tickets get handed out plenty, but never to the blmers.

        so here we have a big F up by the blue state leaders who encouraged the spread of covid, which they blame on trump every day and every hour, but ignore their own contribution.

        and we have a big omission type lie in that the media never addresses this angle and it is not a small angle, nor even a nuanced one. it is a pretty understandable DENIAL OF EQUAL PROTECTION

        in effect the blue staters are treating the BLM LIKE THE NEW ARISTOCRACY– THEY’RE ABOVE THE COVID RESTRICTIONS!

        so those are not little fibs, those are big fat lies.

        https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/7/20/21331216/columbus-statue-protest-police-vigilantes-grant-park-lightfoot

        HERE’S LORI LIGHTFOOT TELLING HER OWN LIES ABOUT A MOB OF VIOLENT CRIMINALS THAT ATTACKED POLICE IN CHICAGO LAST FRIDAY
        THEY WERE BLM -ERS MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT.

      2. Has Wapo corrected the colliusion delusion claims yet ?

        If not why are they to be beleived ?

        Have you ?

        How many emails and texts do you need from Strzok saying – we scoured the earth and could not find collusion – in Jan 2017, before you grasp you have been lied to by Obama, Biden, the Press, the FBI, the DOJ, Comey, Rosenstein, Muller, ….

    1. So wapo has defamed Trump 20,000 times.

      And you still trust it ?

      Have they corrected the ten thousand false claims of lies about the collusion delusion ?

    2. “I would put the mainstream media’s record against Trump’s any day of the week.”

      You would ? What has the MSM run on the collusion delusion that was true ?

      “Trump lies so many times people cannot keep up with all the lies.”
      Again if you are going to defame someone else.
      If you are going to claim moral failure rather than just error,
      YOU are obligated to prove your claim.
      A lie is not an error, or a difference of opinion. It is a deliberate attempt to deceive.

      “Mcinaney, too, lies many many times on his behalf.”
      Again if you are going to defame someone – you had better prove it.
      McEnany is far more precise than Trump, She has researched the issues beforehand. She shows up well prepared and
      ready for the BS that the MSM is about to toss.

      She states the facts very clearly and specifically
      If as you say she is lying that should be very easy to prove.

      But you have not done so.

      You claim that Wapo has 20000 Trump lies.
      No what they have is Wapo lying about lying 20000 times.

      You have failed horribly here with every claim you have made.

  5. Trump Flounders In Interview With Chris Wallace. Virus Denials Come Up Short

    The interview was especially combative when it touched on Covid-19, which has infected 3.7 million and killed more than 140,000 people in the US.

    Wallace repeatedly pressed Trump about the death toll, which the president attempted to deflect by pointing to mortality rates in other countries and saying the US had “one of the lowest in the world”.

    “That’s not true, sir,” Wallace said, correctly.

    The argument continued, and Trump asked his press secretary, Kayleigh McEnany, to “please bring me the mortality rate”.

    “You have the numbers, please?” Trump asked. “Because I hear we have the best mortality rate. Number, number one low mortality rate.”

    Waving a paper, Trump said: “I hope you show this on air, because it shows what fake news is about.”

    “I don’t think I’m fake news,” Wallace said.

    Wallace then showed a montage of Trump’s comments minimizing Covid-19, by saying it will “disappear” at some point.

    “I’ll be right eventually,” Trump said. “It is going to disappear. I’ll say it again, it’s going to disappear and I’ll be right.”

    Wallace asked if Trump’s past comments about coronavirus disappearing, which have not been borne out, discredited him.

    “I don’t think so, you know why? Because I’ve been right probably more than anybody else.”

    Trump went on to say masks can cause problems (they do not) and to say an increase in testing is why the US has such a high number of cases. It is not.

    Trump also called White House expert Dr Anthony Fauci “an alarmist” and when asked about a daily death toll around 1,000, said: “It is what it is.”

    Edited From: “Donald Trump V Fox News Sunday: Extraordinary Moments From Wild Interview”

    The Guardian, 7/20/20

    1. REGARDING ABOVE:

      Supporters ‘believe’ Trump’s denials that the virus is surging. But the Chris Wallace nterview revealed Trump as shockingly out of touch.

      1. ” But the Chris Wallace nterview revealed Trump as shockingly out of touch.”

        If you think that is true then provide the 5 best statements in order that prove you correct. We all have access to the video so prove your case or run away as usual.

      2. “Supporters ‘believe’ Trump’s denials that the virus is surging.”
        Not a supporter.
        I beleive data.
        The data shows we are slowly coming to the end of this.

        “But the Chris Wallace nterview revealed Trump as shockingly out of touch.”
        non sequitur

        1. Of course John is a Trump supporter. That’s what he spends most of his time here doing, including Bahgdad Bob like contortions involving “up is down” statements given with a straight face.

          The data does not show we are “coming to the end” of this as cases are surging in the US, which already leads the world in cases and deaths.

          https://covid19.who.int/?gclid=CjwKCAjwgdX4BRB_EiwAg8O8HbiKUTbhVBplXvIjkUeGQXovUPIaGTAkac-2ncy9RECN6TnO-rMesxoCdIIQAvD_BwE

          We still have no clear plan, do not have enough testing facilities, and our economy is tanking for the 2nd time in 3 months – I can see that on the streets of my small city in a red state.

          Deaths as a % of cases is due to various factors – all good – that include increased wariness of seniors and compromised individuals, increased use of masks and social distancing, increased awareness of beneficial treatments by medical personnel, and increased testing means earlier treatment for some patients.No experts are predicting this going away quickly – we are only 2 months from flu season – and John is no expert.

          “…There is also no indication that the death rate is lower because the coronavirus itself has become less deadly, Dr. Ogbunu said. Mutation is a normal part of any virus’s evolutionary trajectory, but these genetic changes are often inconsequential.”

          https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/03/health/coronavirus-mortality-testing.html

          1. Book, thanks for contributing. But this argument is beginning to feel ridiculous. Coverage of the pandemic has been voluminous in mainstream media. It is obvious, to any discerning reader, that this pandemic is still a major threat. Yet Trump supporters want to keep this argument going like this is another ‘deep state plot’. Which illustrates what we have known for 4 years at this point: ‘Trump’s only real talent is starting arguments’.

            In fact, that is a major reason this pandemic has made the U.S. look Third World. Trump has no concept of how to lead or govern. Trump’s abilities begin and end with the Culture Wars. He is a one-trick pony who only knows how to agitate. And for that one reason alone the pandemic is surging when is should be in retreat by now.

            1. “It is obvious, to any discerning reader, that this pandemic is still a major threat.”

              And yet so many people – with data to back them up disagree with you.

              “Yet Trump supporters want to keep this argument going like this is another ‘deep state plot’.”
              And yet the “deep state” did get caught plotting.

              Regardless – you are the one keeping this argument up.
              There will be new death and hospitalization data today and tomorow and tomorow, and I do not know what it will take to get through to you.
              But eventually it must get through your head, you are fixated on a unicorn, a misleading artifact.
              That all the rest of the data is running against you.
              That even if you were right – that still means fewer and fewer people are getting seriously sick. Fewer and fewer people are dying.

              If everyone in the country gets mild C19 and no one dies – you would still be ranting.

              “Which illustrates what we have known for 4 years at this point: ”
              Yes – the left is bat $h!t crazy.

              We have listened to you rant that the end of the world is near for 4 years – and still the end has not come.
              The economy is already recovering. C19 will pass, most things are better than 2016.
              No one in their right mind wants Obama back.
              All the rants of the past 4 years – lies. No collusion delusion. But yes the Obama administration spied on a political opponent and for the first time ever a president sabotaged his succesor.

              Trump has not invaded any other country – first president since Carter.
              China has been contained.
              Whatever the problems in the mideast – they are not ours.
              US has a secure energy future.
              The EU has an energy guarantee from the US that severely constrains russia.

              “In fact, that is a major reason this pandemic has made the U.S. look Third World.”
              And yet that is purely in your head. The US as a whole is indistinguishable from the EU, The EU has more deaths – but also more people,
              the overall death rate is about the same. Red states are doing much better than Germany, Blue states about as well as Belgium, France, Spain and Italy.

              In fact there is no real evidence that policies anywhere have made any difference.
              You should take that as a win – otherwise red states have done 5-10 times better than Blue.

              “Trump has no concept of how to lead or govern.”
              No he just does not do so as you wish. He sticks to the constitution, Further when he speaks he is speaking to the american heartland – not you.

              “Trump’s abilities begin and end with the Culture Wars.”
              Those are your problems not his. He uses your PC nonsense against you, and makes you rabid and frothing.
              Meanwhile he goes about the actual job of president.

              He has deregulated more than anyone since Carter – and the world has not come to an end.
              Your air is just as clean as when Obama was president, your water just as pure. It is still impossible to get a drug approved.

              Regardless Trump has done all these things you loath – and nothing bad has happened.

              “He is a one-trick pony who only knows how to agitate”
              Of course he agitates you – if you do not get your way you are agitated.
              Chill out.
              Enjoy yourself, the world is actually a pretty good place.

              “And for that one reason alone the pandemic is surging when is should be in retreat by now.”

              Only in your head.

          2. “Of course John is a Trump supporter. ”
            Because you say so ?
            I disagree with Trump on several issues.
            But that does not mean I defame him.
            People are not evil because I do not agree with them.

            “That’s what he spends most of his time here doing, including Bahgdad Bob like contortions involving “up is down” statements given with a straight face.”
            More ad hominem rather than argument.

            “The data does not show we are “coming to the end” of this as cases are surging in the US, which already leads the world in cases and deaths.”

            Your honestly citing the WHO ?

            BTW the EU has more deaths than the US. half of europe has a higher death rate/million than the US.
            If we could just get rid of those damned blue states the US actually would have incredibly low mortality.

            “We still have no clear plan”
            And we need one for what ?

            It is a virus. It does not care about your plans.
            Go to work, do your job, try not to get sick. That is the only plan you need.

            “do not have enough testing facilities”
            Why ? If you have symptoms – stay away from others.
            If they are bad – call your doctor.

            We do not test for the flu. We assume that if you have flu symptoms, you have the flu.

            “our economy is tanking for the 2nd time in 3 months”
            Not according to any data I have seen.
            Maybe CA is going to hell.
            But the rest of the country isn’t

            “Deaths as a % of cases is due to various factors – all good – that include increased wariness of seniors and compromised individuals, increased use of masks and social distancing, increased awareness of beneficial treatments by medical personnel, and increased testing means earlier treatment for some patients.”

            If believing all of this makes you feel better fine. The outcome is still better.

            “No experts are predicting this going away quickly – we are only 2 months from flu season – and John is no expert.”
            No expert has been right about much so far. My record is better than the majority of experts.
            BTW my opinion and that of all those who agree with me is actually based on …. “experts” (and data and logic).
            You seem to think that “experts” are speaking with one voice – they are not. They have not been from the start.
            You just pick and choose the experts you wish to beleive.

            “…There is also no indication that the death rate is lower because the coronavirus itself has become less deadly,”
            That is correct, which means that the confirmed infections are no longer correlated to actual infections in the same way trhey were before (or people are secretly dying and burying themselves)

            “Mutation is a normal part of any virus’s evolutionary trajectory, but these genetic changes are often inconsequential.”
            Correct – but it is actually true that evolution favors viruses becoming weaker over time.

          3. Depending on the state it has been 6-8 weeks since the rise in the number of cases.
            Far more than long enough to show and effect on deaths.

            There is no reason for anyone to “lie” or to mislead on this. Time will tell no matter what.

            It is entirely possible that in a week deaths will spike.
            It is also highly improbable.

            But you can keep waiting for a spike all the way until the election and beyond.

            As I said – time will tell. In fact it already has.

            The question is how long will it take for time to beat the facts into your skull.

            One of us is wrong, and it will be self evident.

            The differences between us are:

            I go to a fair amount of trouble to be sure I am write before making claims – to avoid having to admit error.
            When I am actually wrong – I admit it.

            You do neither.

            What puzzles many of us is how you can be wrong so often and not learn anything.

            You have bought into an ideology that is rife with error.
            It rarely is correct.
            This is self evident.
            Yet you are blind to it.

            Part of the problem is that modern leftism is nihilistic – it denies that there is a reality.
            This makes it inherently unfalsifiable.
            It makes it a religion. Something you accept on faith.

          4. “include increased wariness of seniors and compromised individuals”
            Interesting hypothesis, but false. Everyone – including seniors is becoming less wary – this is natural, and normal.

            “increased use of masks and social distancing,”
            Again interesting, but not what is happening – people are wearing masks less frequently and social distancing less,
            and they are going out more. The roads are congested again.

            “increased awareness of beneficial treatments by medical personnel”
            There have been gains – but nothing that would result in a factor of 10 reduction in the death rate.

            “increased testing means earlier treatment for some patients.”
            It does ? Then why are there less hospitalizations ?
            Why is the average age of new cases down by several decades ?
            We are not treating people sooner, we are detecting people who are positive by not sick.

    2. Wallace was not totally prepared and made many errors. This is proven by him utilizing intermittant discussion that did not occur with Trump preventing Trump from being able to rebut hiim.

      That is the problem with you lefties. You lose, claim otherwise and then you write that you won. Intellectual dishonesty runs rampant on the left.

      1. No, Alan, quite the opposite. Wallace revealed Trump as ‘totally unprepared’. Trump was ‘totally unprepared’ for a critical interview by a Fox personality. The usual softball questions were missing from this interview (which threw Trump totally off-balance).

        1. You have a video of the interview and so do I. Find the five most significant portions where you believe Trump failed. He actually did quite well with Wallace. Wallace did something I consider unprofessional to help him look good but that is par for the course with the media.

        2. “No, Alan, quite the opposite. Wallace revealed Trump as ‘totally unprepared’. Trump was ‘totally unprepared’ for a critical interview by a Fox personality. The usual softball questions were missing from this interview (which threw Trump totally off-balance).”

          I have not seen the interview yet. It is possible that Trump was not prepared. Though Wallace has a reputation for being tough.

          The problem is not that Wallace was tough – but that he was WRONG.

          He was just disagreeable on questions that there is no clear answer to.

          You do not call someone a liar unless you can prove you are right.
          5 of 10 people agree with you is NOT sufficient to call someone a liar.

          I do not care that Wallace challenged Trump.

          do care that Wallace adopted a narrative that is not nearly universally accepted as if it was gospel.

    3. Trump was bragging and Wallace was very innaccurate on several points.

      If you are going to claim something is “not true” you damn well better be right, and your claim better be OBVIOUSLY correct.
      If you accuse someone of lying where the claim is merely debatable – the error is YOURS.

      Wallace failed.

      The US is not “one of the lowest in the world” – most data from most of the world is just not trustworthy.
      Does anyone think Myanmar is reporting accurately ?

      But within the developed world the US is doing about average. The US as a whole is doing about the same as the EU as a whole.
      Many US states are doing far better than Germany (like TX and FL). While NY is doing worse than Belgium.

      The “disappearing” thing is even more stupid. All of us (except possibly those on the left, who appear to actually want death and destruction) wanted this to disappear sooner. It is possible that it will never disappear. That is unlikely. It is certain it will not disappear as fast as Trump hoped. But there is still no meaning to this.

      Would Wallace have attacked Churchill for being upbeat about Dunkirk ?

      :”Trump went on to say masks can cause problems (they do not)”
      Of course they do – even if they might have value – the vast majority of people wearing them do not use them properly and they are arguably worse than nothing if you are constantly fidgeting with them or if your nose is out.
      They are known to reduce your blood oxygen slightly.
      and there is substantial scientific debate on their effectiveness.

      “and to say an increase in testing is why the US has such a high number of cases. It is not.”
      Because you say so ? Trump is correct and you are obviously not. This has been beaten todeath on this blog.

      The atlantic article claims it takes 3-4 weeks for deaths to match case increases – that is false deaths lag by 10-14 days.
      Regardless it has been 6-8 weeks since the increase in cases and deaths and hospitalizations are declining slowly

      The most reasonable explanation for the difference is that increased cases are the result of increased testing.

      But if you want alternative explanations:
      The virus has mutated and it is 10 times milder.
      Red state doctors are far better than blue state ones and they cure severe Covid without people going to the hospital

      “Trump also called White House expert Dr Anthony Fauci “an alarmist” and when asked about a daily death toll around 1,000, said: “It is what it is.””

      The current toll is 415, not 100, It has only reached 1000/day twice since the start of June, the last time was 10 days ago.
      Faucci is an alarmist.

  6. Lots of comments, and I think I saw just one or two that pointed out that the science is not supporting re-opening schools in the way that Trump wants. It is sad where the the press secretary has a quote taken out of context while lying to the people, and the story is the quote out of context.

    1. Over and over again real numbers have been shown to you and you run away only to repeat yourself over and over again.

      You must be btb’s sister.

        1. I can’t say much what is happening in California, but the expected increase in cases was expected with the opening and with more testing. If suicides increase by only 10% because of Covid that will be approximately equal to the number of deaths in Florida.

          So far the young are faring well and we need the economy to work. Otherwise we could face an economic collapse which is what the left wants so they can instill their type of socialism just like they have in Venezuela.

          I notice how you don’t use real numbers in your discussion. There will be more deaths no matter what we do and no matter how much damage we do to the economy. Eventually all people might lose their desire to police their actions themselves so that the strict laws make them act totally inappropriately leading to even more deaths.

          You can’t discuss this intelligently so you post generalized articles that say nothing.

          1. Alan, your denial is such that arguing is a waste of time. You’re obviously doing your very best to avoid genuine news.

            This pandemic has ‘laid bare’ many problems in this country. Among these problems is the lack quality, truthful information penetrating the rightwing bubble. Trump supporters like yourself are inside a vacuum-sealed dumpster where the only source of information is Donald Trump.

            1. Paint Chips, can you tell me what I am denying and whatever you think it is. Tell us what it means.

              Run away little boy. Come back when you wish to discuss details.

            2. “Alan, your denial is such that arguing is a waste of time. You’re obviously doing your very best to avoid genuine news.”

              Nope, there are just lots of us who are sick of the left wing panic porn that has been the news the past 4 years.

              How did the collusion delusion pan out ? You were lied to – by Obama, the Obama administration, FBI. CIA, DOJ, by Mueller,.

              How did the impeachment nonsense go ? You still think it is inappropriate to ask for an investigation of someone who blackmailed a foreign country for personal benefit ?

              C19 will go the same way. We will all look back on this and wonder why we panicked.

              “This pandemic has ‘laid bare’ many problems in this country. Among these problems is the lack quality, truthful information penetrating the rightwing bubble.”

              We all have the same information. Some of us know how to analyse data – we had an actual education in math. Some of us spent our time in college studying advanced underwater basket weaving.

              “Trump supporters like yourself are inside a vacuum-sealed dumpster where the only source of information is Donald Trump.”
              JHU, ycharts. worldometer, RCP coronavirus tracker, TMC hospitalization data.
              Not one of these is Trump.

              You pay FAR MORE attention to Trump than those who disagree with you.
              I do not care much what he said last, that put a bee up your bonnet.
              I do not much care what Trump says.
              I care what he does.

              The evidence is that government policies have no effect on C19.

              So Trump sole role is to be Churchill and try to put a good face on Dunkirk.

              Beyond that we need to reopen schools and the economy and get back to our lives.

              Should we take some precautions – depending on our own individual risk factors and choices certainly.

              I am not likely to do anything in a crowd for a long time.
              I am not likely to dine out for a while.

              I have a mask and wipes with me in public and I use them where required or when I feel there is more risk.
              My kids are in their 20’s. They are in good health. They should just go about their lives – being a bit more careful about the possibility of infecting their older parents.

              That is not only what we should do now – but what we should have done from the start.

              That is not Trump speaking.

              Take a step away from the panic porn.

              What does it take for you to learn who and what you can trust ?

              How long are you going to continue to buy excrement from people who just keep lying to you.

              When this latest rant about c19 fades as the deaths and hospitalizations fail to materialize,
              are you FINALLY going to sit back and reassess ?
              Or are you going to keep buying $h!t from people who lie to you ?

              1. Physicians in Italy, China, USA, etc will diagnose cause of death using diverse methods, both objective and subjective. The same applies with clinicians within the USA as expected.

                Numbers from the CDC, John Hopkins, etc should be taken with a grain of salt. The numbers will be reliable 3 years from now but not until then.

                https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm

                Technical Notes: Provisional Death Counts for Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19)

                Comparing data in this report to other sources

                COVID-19 deaths may also be classified or defined differently in various reporting and surveillance systems. Death counts in this report include laboratory confirmed COVID-19 deaths and clinically confirmed COVID-19 deaths. This includes deaths where COVID-19 is listed as a “presumed” or “probable” cause. Some local and state health departments only report laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 deaths. This may partly account for differences between NCHS reported death counts and death counts reported in other sources.

                Cause-of-death classification and definition of deaths

                Coronavirus disease deaths are identified using the ICD–10 code U07.1. Deaths are coded to U07.1 when coronavirus disease 2019 or COVID-19 are reported as a cause that contributed to death on the death certificate. These can include laboratory confirmed cases, as well as cases without laboratory confirmation. If the certifier suspects COVID-19 or determines it was likely (e.g., the circumstances were compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), they can report COVID-19 as “probable” or “presumed” on the death certificate (5, 6). COVID-19 is listed as the underlying cause on the death certificate in 94% of deaths (see Table 1).
                Pneumonia deaths are identified using multiple cause-of-death codes from the 10th Revision of ICD (ICD–10): J12–J18, excluding deaths that involve influenza (J09–J11). Influenza deaths are identified from the ICD–10 codes J09–J11, and include deaths with pneumonia or COVID-19 listed as a contributing cause of death.

                Pneumonia and influenza deaths are included to provide context for understanding the completeness of COVID-19 mortality data and related trends. Deaths due to COVID-19 may be misclassified as pneumonia or influenza deaths in the absence of positive test results, and pneumonia or influenza may appear on death certificates as a comorbid condition. Additionally, COVID-19 symptoms can be similar to influenza-like illness, thus deaths may be misclassified as influenza. Thus, increases in pneumonia and influenza deaths may be an indicator of excess COVID-19-related mortality. Additionally, estimates of completeness for pneumonia and influenza deaths may provide context for understanding the lag in reporting for COVID-19 deaths, as it is anticipated that these causes would have similar delays in reporting, processing, and coding.

                Estimated completeness of data

                It is important to note that the true levels of completeness are unknown, and the estimates provided here are only a proxy. In cases where mortality rates are increasing rapidly, particularly when excess deaths due to a novel cause are occurring, values for completeness for recent weeks may exceed 100% even when NCHS has yet to receive all available data. Conversely, if the number of deaths was elevated in prior years due to a severe flu season, for example, estimated completeness in the most recent weeks may be lower than the true value. To avoid relying too heavily on comparisons to a single week of a single prior year, estimates of completeness included in this release are based on the average counts in a given week across 3 prior years (e.g., the 12th week of 2017, 2018, and 2019).

                Source

                NCHS, National Vital Statistics System. Estimates are based on provisional data.

                1. The data we have is invaluable.

                  But it is also necessary to grasp that it is imperfect.

                  We can do comparisons, but we should never rely on small differences.

                  We have to use what we have to look for big patterns because small ones can not be trusted – the data is just not good enough.

        2. Do you understand that even if things actually went and you left wing nuts wish – all you would have is Red states with lots of C19 cases and few deaths ?

          Deaths were near 4000/day in april. They were 2000/day in NY, They are 415 yesterday. TX the purported epicenter of this has hospitalizations dropping.

          Lets just say the red states are seeing this huge spike – and yet no surge in deaths ?

          That would just prove that blue state governors were incompetent, and killed people needlessly.
          NY had 32K deaths. TX has had 4K and TX has a 50% larger population.
          To be comparable to NY TX must get to 45K deaths.

          At the current rate that would take 450days – and the TX death rate is declining.

          I will make you a bet.

          If TX hits 45K total C19 deaths I will vote for Biden.
          If TX does not exceed 10K deaths you agree to vote for Trump ?

          1. John, Trump supporters have this manic desire to keep the conversation focused on ‘only’ deaths. Because if you believe Donald Trump, the virus is ‘no worse than a cold’. Therefore in the minds of Trumpers, deaths are the only important statistic. By this odd measure the virus is in retreat since deaths are down. This whole line of thinking is massive denial. The virus is surging in most of the country and businesses are afraid to reopen for fear of litigation and other complications. What’s more, THERE IS NO FEDERAL LEADERSHIP.

            1. John, Trump supporters have this manic desire to keep the conversation focused on ‘only’ deaths.

              Because that’s the most reliable metric and that’s the most salient problem. This is not that difficult, Peter.

              1. Absurd, if you believe this virus is ‘no worse than a cold’, you are in the vacuum-sealed dumpster with Alan and John.

                1. I can’t find where DSS said “no worse than a cold” and John who did say that added a bit of explanation which is true “For the vast majority of people that is true ”

                  What isn’t true is your out of context statement. I won’t call you a liar because I believe that you have reading comprehension problems. However, you do have a chance, which you won’t take, to show us why John was wrong.

                  You are an hysteric.

                  1. If you are under 40 and morbidly obese, or have other serious health issues – you should be scared of C19.
                    You should be scared of the flu.
                    You should be scared of a cold.

                    There are numerous factors that contribute to the severity of C19.
                    Age is one – this gets progressively worse the older you are from so mild under 20 you may not know you have it to nearly killing you at 90.
                    Health is another – if you are in bad health C19 is going to be worse for you. If you are in good health it will be milder. Multiple health issues is a real downer. Most deaths have multiple health problems.
                    Race – unfortunately C19 seems to be racist. Maybe it was created in a lab in Wuhan by the KKK.

                    There are some other factors that we strongly suspect – such as Vitaman D levels. This explains why there is a strong latitude correlations as well as some strong diet correlations.

                    You can take all the demographic factors, and latitude and diet and predict the C19 behavior in every country in the world with a hugh level of accuracy.

                    But there is no correlation to policies.

                    1. “You can take all the demographic factors, and latitude and diet and predict the C19 behavior in every country in the world with a hugh level of accuracy.

                      But there is no correlation to policies.

                      John, Covid will act in its own fashion no matter what but policies do affect how the Covid virus effects us. The biggest effects are seen where there is stupid policy. That was seen in the nursing homes and had the policies of the democrat governors responsible been different there would have been less deaths.

                      That I believe is undeniable and seems to conflict with your general argument.

                    2. Sorry, my remarks were too generalized.

                      There is no doubt at all that bad policies resulted in harm.

                      I would further clarify that I was not saying that policies had no effect at all – they had lots of effects.
                      Nor that they had not effect of any kind on C19 – it is pretty clear that many polices do result in “flattening the curve”
                      Flattening the curve does NOT reduce total infections. It does not reduce total hospitalizations, and absent the failure of the healthcare system it does not reduce total deaths. Only two potential benefits come from “flattening the curve” – slowing the progress of C19 sufficiently may allow the development of better treatment or even a vaccine – but to be effective the delay would have to be significant and the cost would be extremely high, the 2nd benefit is to the healthcare system – and this benefit only occurs if absent flattening the curve the healthcare system would be overrun and that would result in more deaths. In much of the world that benefit is mythical. In less developed countries the healthcare system is not adequate to benefit severe C19 patients regardless, in more developed countries the normal rate of C19 does not appear to exceed the capacity of the healthcare system. NYC as an example never exceeded 1/4 of its surge capacity.

                      So for all but a few rare exceptions “flattening the curve” has no benefit.

                      I expect as a result of C19 experiences that the dogma of “flattening the curve” to be revised, and that it is likely to be restricted to diseases with an R0 about twice than of C19 where there are known beneficial treatments.

                      Though who knows. There was excellent reasons to doubt the need for, or effectiveness of flattening the curve from the start.
                      It requires a very specific and narrow set of circumstances to be beneficial

                    3. One of the lessons we SHOULD be getting from C19 – that most people are clearly missing, is that the power of government to provide consequential benefit is very close to nil.

                    4. Hey, I actually agree with Allan on this one. Of course I’d add to his ‘stupid policy’ cauldron the actions/non actions of the Governors of Florida, Texas and Arizona around opening up too early and in too broad of a fashion. California, after being the first to begin mitagation, has nullified a lot of early successful policy by opecning up too early and too broadly after kowtowing to the screaming ‘no mask’ lobby.

                      Truth be told, Covid doesn’t respect policy other than massive testing, contact tracing, and data driven sequential opening policy. Stop gap measures = social distancing, monitoring of data with the tendencies of Covid in mind and, even though we haven’t experienced it yet other than states being forced to fend for their own due to the gigantic federal ‘peacing out’ measures, government backstopping of medical equipment and PPE.

                      Not rocket science. And these are the policies/measures proven to work, not only in segments of the U.S, but around the world.

                    5. And yet TX, FL, etc still only have a fraction of the deaths that NY has.

                      Reopening was never a mistake.

                      Closing was a mistake.

                      It accomplished nothing.

                      I small increase should occur as we reopen.

                      You still do not grasp the fundimental science of “flattening the curve”

                      It does not reduce the number of infections – nothing short of a vaccine does that.

                      All it does is spread C19 over a longer period of time at great economic expense.

                      If your hospitals are not overwhelmed – there is no benefit to flattening the curve.
                      That is not some talking point – that is the science.

                      No one sane beleives you can accomplish anything but by time with the policies we are following.

                    6. CA has been locked down tighter than anywhere in the country. Far worse than NY.

                      C19 arrived in CA probably a month early than the rest of the country.

                      So if your policies work – why is CA having problems ?

                      I can tell you exactly why NY is past this.

                      It is simple – once C19 got into the dense population of NYC there was no stopping it.

                      C19 is always going to spread faster and hit harder and die faster in the most dense populations.

                      Regardless, you are being critical of CA – but they did everything that you claim is necescary, they did it “correctly”
                      They did it before everyone else, they did it more rigidly and they kept closed longer than everyone else.

                      The point is exactly what I have been saying over and over, that the real “experts” knew from the start, that is the actual sscience,

                      C19 does not give a $h!t about your policies.
                      They buy time – MAYBE, nothing else.

                      CA is the largest population in the country, but it is also a physically large state. It has several large cities – but they are not near the population density of NYC.

                    7. Oh and may I add government policy that’s successful includes massive stimulus because without it we’d be in the midst of a ’30’s style depression right now. We may still get there depending on what happens in D.C. this week.

                    8. Thing is, the hands off government can’t do anything crew has a track record now: states in the U.S. with governors under Trump’s influence, Brazil, Iran and Sweden. All of them leaning almost as their only resort on herd immunity ideology in the teeth of evidence that says the costs of herd immunity as a primary strategy for dealing with Covid to be too great to the health care system (and the populace). Add to that the fact that Sweden, in their herd immunity strategy, is no better off than their surrounding countries on an economic plane and we can see what ‘flat earth’ Covid policy looks like versus policy proven to have positive effect.

                    9. “Thing is, the hands off government can’t do anything crew has a track record now: states in the U.S. with governors under Trump’s influence,”

                      Yes, unemployment in red states is currently 1/3 that of blue states.

                      “Brazil, Iran and Sweden”
                      These countries are under Trump’s influence ? Really ?

                      “All of them leaning almost as their only resort on herd immunity ideology in the teeth of evidence that says the costs of herd immunity as a primary strategy for dealing with Covid to be too great to the health care system (and the populace).”
                      How so ? Red states are spending LESS than Blue states on C19. Sweden has been less negatively economically impacted.

                      “Add to that the fact that Sweden, in their herd immunity strategy, is no better off than their surrounding countries on an economic plane”
                      False. Sweden has had just about the least negative economic impact from C19. Sweden has also had the least disruption of their lives.

                      “and we can see what ‘flat earth’ Covid policy looks like versus policy proven to have positive effect.”

                      Sweden has had less death per capita than the UK, Italy. Spain, Belgium and has thus far only done slightly worse than France or the US.
                      The Swedes also know as they work their way through C19 – that they are done, that it is not coming back.

                    10. You keep saying things as if they are fact.

                      Where is there this “proven policy” ?

                      The US is almost a perfect laboratory.

                      C19 hit population dense blue states hard and fast
                      a big killing machine.
                      Because it hit hard and fast it also burned out fast.

                      Thus far there are 3-5 times as many deaths per capita in blue states as red.

                      It seems pretty clear that whatever blue states did there is no evidence they had better policies.

                    11. “Thing is, the hands off government can’t do anything crew has a track record now: states in the U.S. with governors under Trump’s influence”

                      this is false. there are numerous red states which have had modest quarantines and modest reopening and modest increases well under control

                      the big problem all along has been in major metros which are almost completely run by Democrat mayors, regardless of what state they are in

                      if there is an indication of partisan responsibility for the COVID mess, which I do not believe in either direction overall, but if there was, it would actually reflect more poorly on Democrat local leadership.

                      the massive public protest / riot/ felonious ambush and assault and battery on 49 Chicago cops friday is an example of why

                      a funeral in Illinois for example can only have ten people
                      https://www.dph.illinois.gov/sites/default/files/20200407_Funeral_Homes_Guidance_V3.pdf

                      unless the funeral is for George FLoyd, aka, a protest in his name, in which case it can have tens of thousands

                      how fair is that? not fair.
                      How does allowing these massive public gatherings not spread COVID

                      IT DOES spread COVID is the answer. and Democrat mayors like Lori Lightfoot not only allow it, they applaud it.

                    12. John apparently thinks repeating the same BS over and over makes it true.

                      There are a variety of reasons why people are not dying now at the rate they were when we had the first outbreak and speaks to the success of masks, social distancing, testing, and learned treatments that are superior. Death remains a lagging indicator requiring new cases. We have that now in spades across places which reopened too quickly and without a plan or adequate preparation, which is what John thinks are good practices. Zero experts agree with him, but that’s nothing new for our boy wonder who thinks he knows better than all the experts except the Great Expert in the WH he is always backing up.

                      Given that there is some indication that immunity for those who have contracted the virus may last a matter of months, herd immunity may not work as a plan. Further, as early polling indicated, people will self quarantine or not based more on their own concerns for personal safety than any edicts to reopen by politicians. I am witnessing that now in my area where the rednecks are hiding too. The damage to the economy – again – was predictable.

                      The point in masks, social distancing, and testing with contact tracing is to stretch out infections so medical resources are not overwhelmed – one of our local hospitals just closed elective surgeries down, again – give more time to vaccine development, and provide information to medical providers to anticipate and allocate resources. Lastly, citizens who know there is a plan and witness safe practices will more likely go to the store and keep the economy going. The wild west Bahgdad John insists on does none of this and results in overwhelmed hospitals, scared consumers, dead patients, and no end in site.

                    13. “John apparently thinks repeating the same BS over and over makes it true.”
                      No actual evidence as well as logic and reason make it true.

                      Regardless, you are the one who seeks to impose your will on others by force, the burden of proof is on you.

                      ” am getting tested every day. There are a variety of reasons why people are not dying now at the rate they were when we had the first outbreak and speaks to the success of masks,”
                      So we have no proof at this point that masks work at all – and you jump to t. hey are effectively reducing the death toll in FL and TX by absolutely massive amounts.

                      “social distancing,”
                      You claim Sweden is in trouble – yet Sweden has been VOLUNTARILY social distancing from the start ?
                      Regardless – data ? Studies ?

                      “testing,”
                      Really ?
                      If testing prevents C19 – I am getting tested every day
                      “and learned treatments that are superior.”
                      Yes, remedsivir – when it is available, and the supply is for only 10,000 treatments, reduces the death rate in severe cases by 50%.
                      HCQ – which you lefties eschewed reduces death by about 20%. WE have millions of doses of that, but the left and the media have so slimed that few doctors are using it.
                      Steroids – again only 20% effective

                      So where is it that TX and FL have managed a 10000% improvement over NY ?s.

                      “Death remains a lagging indicator requiring new cases.”
                      Not by 60 days

                      Lancet has death by 19 days.

                      https://media.drugs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Covid-Progression-Chart-scaled.jpg

                      “We have that now in spades across places which reopened too quickly and without a plan or adequate preparation, ”
                      We do ?
                      ycharts has daily deaths today to 372. That is 1/10 the peak.

                      “which is what John thinks are good practices. Zero experts agree with him,”
                      There are plenty of experts to support my argument – the entire Swedish health ministry to start.
                      Regardless, what experts have been right so far ?

                      “but that’s nothing new for our boy wonder who thinks he knows better than all the experts except the Great Expert in the WH he is always backing up.”
                      I can find multiple experts to support my arguments for anything – that is a trivial exercise.
                      Quit pretending that is meaningful.

                      “Given that there is some indication that immunity for those who have contracted the virus may last a matter of months,
                      herd immunity may not work as a plan. ”

                      That actually makes lockdowns an even stupider idea. If immunity is short lived we need to get through C19 globally as fast as possible so that it is completely eradicated before immunity fades.

                      Assuming arguendo that your approach worked – which it does not, absent immunity you are stuck locked down forever.

                      “Further, as early polling indicated, people will self quarantine or not based more on their own concerns for personal safety than any edicts to reopen by politicians.”

                      Have I ever challenged that ? That is an argument AGAINST your nonsense. The Swedes did almost the same things as other countries.
                      But they did so VOLINTARILY.

                      You can spray PSA’s about maxking and self quarantining and …. to your hearts content. I have zero problems with that.

                      It is irrelevant whether they work or not if people choose to do so voluntarily. Someone excerpted an NEJM article on masks that essentially said it is irrelevant whether they work or not – they make people FEEL safer. I have zero problems with that – so long as you do not use FORCE.

                      “I am witnessing that now in my area where the rednecks are hiding too.”
                      1). I do not care.
                      2). I honestly beleive very little of what you say. You defame others without proof and you are still buying into the debunked collusion delusion.
                      3). You have terrified the shit out of people needlessly.

                      “The damage to the economy – again – was predictable.”

                      That is right – there was NEVER a reason to lockdown.

                      “The point in masks, social distancing, and testing with contact tracing is to stretch out infections so medical resources are not overwhelmed”
                      NYC – the epicenter never exceeded 25% of normal capacity. They did not come close to emergency capacity.
                      We agree what the point was – the point proved pointless.

                      I will further note that protecting medical resources only matters if they are effective.
                      If there are no effective C19 treatments – then hospitalizing C19 patients is a waste of resources.

                      “one of our local hospitals just closed elective surgeries down”

                      Another MISTAKE that the idiots on the left have forced on us.

                      In my community we have multiple hospitals. We even have one large hosptial that shutdown about 2 years ago that is sitting empty.

                      Our response to C19 has been to put C19 patients in EVERY hospital and to have them on separate floors.
                      A much better approach is to leave Hospitals open as normal, performing all normal functions EXCEPT C19, and to dedicate specific facilities for C19. Put C19 patients in the emergency facilities – the tents in central park.

                      Do not EVER let them into normal hospitals. Not unless things get so bad we exceed emergency capabilities.

                      Just like we should keep C19 patients out of nursing homes – we should keep them out of regular hospitals.

                      “again – give more time to vaccine development”

                      So your plan is to lock the entire country down until January ? Or next August if Trump’s expidited program fails and it actually takes 18 months to develop a vaccine ?

                      You just do not get it.

                      You can not shut down that long. People will revolt and risk death FIRST.

                      “and provide information to medical providers to anticipate and allocate resources.”

                      There is someone that is not fully informed about C19 ? There is a medical provider that can not find all they need to know in a few seconds ? The internet quit working ?

                      You keep manufacturing tasks that get handled all the time automatically without your interference.

                      “Lastly, citizens who know there is a plan and witness safe practices will more likely go to the store and keep the economy going.”
                      Because you say so ?
                      You have a fixation on plans. What are you some soviet commisar ?
                      If you do not want to be called a socialist, do not act like one.

                      Does the economy have some overall top down government plan ? Healthcare ?
                      To the limited extent either do – those have been failures.

                      People do not need government plans they are perfectly capable of running their own lives.

                      What they need is idiots like you to quit hawking panic porn.

                      “The wild west Bahgdad John insists on does none of this and results in overwhelmed hospitals, scared consumers, dead patients, and no end in site.”

                      BTB – the end is obviously near. The pattern has been much the same accross the world.

                      Everywhere this ends – we all know it. It ends even if you do nothing – usually faster, though there are so many demographic variables.

                      You say things are going to hell. Well at the current death rate it would take almost 500 days to match deaths in the past 120 days.
                      That sure sounds like near the end.

                    14. John conveniently ignores the fact that the “blue states” were where the pandemic first hit and since then citizens and medical personnel have learned better behaviors and medical resources have been increased. Deaths have been declining for precisely all these reasons. not some imagined superiority of red state medical practices (though they learned from the earlier blue experience) or red state policy, which is showing itself to mainly be f….d and ushering us into a 2nd way economic crash.

                    15. “John conveniently ignores the fact that the “blue states” were where the pandemic first hit and since then citizens and medical personnel have learned better behaviors and medical resources have been increased.:”
                      I do not ignore that at all.

                      In fact most of the dictats you are trying to throw at red states now were too late to have any impact on Blue states.

                      I do not disagree that we have learned – and we should thank blue state doctors for that.

                      But the best treatment we have is remedsivir – and we have about 10K treatments of that and it results in a 60% reduction in deaths.
                      That is not getting us very far.

                      HCQ and some steriods produce a 20% reduction in death.

                      For the current positive test/death numbers to be accurate – you would need a 10000% reduction in death.

                      “Deaths have been declining for precisely all these reasons. not some imagined superiority of red state medical practices (though they learned from the earlier blue experience)”
                      I agree, but the improvement is not withing several orders of magnitude of explaining the differences in outcome.

                      “or red state policy, which is showing itself to mainly be f….d and ushering us into a 2nd way economic crash.”

                      The DJIA crashed between 2/18-3/23, it has been rising since.
                      NASDAQ recently set a record high.

                      Unemployment for red states is 5.2% avg, for blue it is 15%.

                    16. John’s screed again is too long to read – he’s not worth it – let alone respond to, but a few key points:

                      I do not advocate for a shut down, but like virtually every medical and epidemiologist – John is neither and has virtually no support for his position among them – but for reopening smartly and cautiously to avoid both further crisis as many states are now again facing, and panic among citizens who are also, after all, consumers. We damage the health of citizens and the economy practicing the “what me worry” Trump and John approach.

                      Anyone living in these states – or at least in mine, which is one of the worst right now – can attest to the empty streets. This is not from government edict but from fear. By the way, our local hospital which cancelled elective surgeries are not “leftists” (wtf?) they are businessmen trying to keep it on the road.

                      Lastly John in his ignorance suggest we can out race the virus in a few months, as if herd immunity can develop that quickly and before that immunity fades, as some recent research suggest may happen. Yeah, great plan there Evil Kneval.

                      More intelligently, we can reopen with a plan – need a new president, obviously – and given our success so far in tamping down deaths through various means, bide time until the vaccine. That is the best we can hope for and do.

                    17. “but like virtually every medical and epidemiologist – John is neither and has virtually no support for his position among them – but for reopening smartly and cautiously to avoid both further crisis as many states are now again facing, and panic among citizens who are also, after all, consumers. We damage the health of citizens and the economy practicing the “what me worry” Trump and John approach.”

                      So your argument is nothing – I am am clearly wrong – you are clearly right, experts support you and none support me – but you refuse to
                      actually say what it is that these experts and you are after.

                      “Reopenting smartly” is meaningly buzzwords. Reopen – dont – pick.

                      There is no such thing as government “smartly” managing the economy. If there was the USSR would rule the world and the US would have gone socialist as Paul Samuelson predicted years ago.

                      Neither you nor any epideimologist on the planet – in fact NO ONE has the skill to manage an economy.
                      Every effort to do so has been disasterous – and most disasterous and bloody.

                      And you still have not botthered to say what “smartly” is,

                      Much of the country has already reopened – including blue states – albeit quietly. Much of it has been succussfull.

                      You keep ranting that we are in the middle of a 2nd wave – but we are clearly not. Hospitalizations are not skyrocketting, Deaths are not spiking. People are doing fine.

                      Yet you keep ranting in vague and meaningless phrases – that mean little more than ‘i am right and you are wrong – no matter what I say, or what you say’

                    18. Not seeing this mass panic you rant about. What state are you in.

                      I am in PA a blue state that is purportedly going through your smart reopening. – or whatever Gov. Wolf’s dictat of the day is.

                      Most of the state is ignoring him. The police are not enforcing his edicts. Nearly all businesses are reopened.

                      Few people here even know what the govenors rules are – they are going about their lives and making their own choices.
                      Traffic is back to normal. Parking lots are full, Some people wear masks, many do not.

                      PA got hit bad – but not like NY and NJ. Though Wolf has been a total Ass.

                      PA was doing 8K tests per day in April, now they are doing about 15K tests per day.
                      TX BTW was doing 15K tests per day in April, they are doing 85K tests per day now.
                      FL was doing 20K tests/day in April. they are doing 80K/day now.

                      FL has also been confirmed to have a massive reporting problem – hundreds of test centers are reporting 100% positive testing, but when they are asked to confirm they actual rates are running about 9%.
                      So we really do not know FL’s numbers.

                      JHU where my numbers came from says that most states are misreporting their data, that they are combining antibody, seriology and infections tests and reporting if any of these are positive thus they are NOT reporting actual infections but the number of people who have been infected in the past.

                    19. BTB – I am not SUGUESTING anything. I am flat out telling you. If immunity is short lived – then everything you are doing will make things WORSE not better.

                      You constantly throw up all these straw man arguments – and I shoot them down – because if they are actually true – your own approach is disasterously stupid.

                      If Immunity is short lived there are only two choices – Covid is here forever, you will never get rid of it – all your policies are useless because when you relax them it will inevitably come back, at best you might buy yourself a short period of peace, But it will be a few months at most.
                      There is one and only one means to eliminate a virus with a very short level of immunity – that is to acheive global herd immunity as quickly as possible.

                      You are correct that is not a very good option – if even one country fails to go along – the effort is useless.

                      That is the reality of immunity is short lived.

                      Fortunately there are no indications that is the case. We have countries and states that have taken a very long time to peak, but we have never had one country in the world that has had a real 2nd wave. We have had no country bring C19 down to next to nothing and then have it return.

                      Unless you are clueless – that does not mean those countries followed the right policies. It means they have acheived herd immunity.

                      Because if they had not – the C19 would have returned.

                      You say the experts say otherwise – this is not so. The entire history of epidemics is uniformly the same.

                      Where any reasonable duration of immunity is acheivable, The virus comes, spikes and goes forever.

                      Specifically for viruses that have seasonal attributes, the virus may spike and die before spring, and then spike a 2nd time the next fall.
                      But once herd immunity is reached – the virus burns out never to return.

                      We can acheive herd immunity by infection, we can do it though vaccine.

                      There are no other routes.

                      Until sustained herd immunity is reached – the virus will be around forever and once again – it will not give a $h!t about your policy choices.

                      You keep saying the experts support you – no the experts are NOT rejecting 200 years of epidemiology.
                      No C19 is not miraculously different from every virus ever.

                      But back to your “evil knevil” claim.

                      Presuming – as is likely that immunity lasts atleast a few years,
                      It is NOT necescary for a globally coordinated effort to reach herd immunity in a very short time.
                      The virus can be eradicated one or several countries at a time – but it must be acheived globally before immunity fades or the virus will be with us forever.

                      Further it IS actually wiser for each country to get through the epidemic as quickly as possible.

                      The leftist nonsense you are selling is NOT science, it is NOT epidemiology.

                      It is this faux theory that a virus can be eliminated without immunity

                      If FL and TX are really spiking because of bad policy – this will very shortly return to NY and NJ. So long as there is a sufficient number of infectable people in some state or country – they are at high risk of resurgence.

                      That is the real science.

                    20. “More intelligently, we can reopen with a plan”
                      Because C19 checks communities out before hand and if a community has a plan – it skips them and goes elsewhere.

                      If a community has sufficient infectable people, and the virus is still present in that community at all, or can come in from elsewhere – their will be a surge of infections. No plan in the world stops that.

                      “– need a new president, obviously”
                      Clearly – because you need to implement this plan – that you do not even know what is, that the SCIENCE – which you keep pretending you get to make up, rejects.

                      “and given our success so far in tamping down deaths through various means”
                      You have ? If that is your criteria – we need to indict blue state governors for MURDER.

                      I will make you another Bet.

                      I will vote for Biden in Nov. if ANY red state exceeds the deaths per capita of NYC.
                      if you will vote for Trump is NO red state reaches 1/2 the deaths per capita of NYC

                      You claim that you are “the plan” – is the purpose of the plan to save lives ? or is it just to have a plan ?
                      Assuming the former, isn’t the actual measure of success the overall death rate ?

                      So long as that is true we have a long long long way to go before any red state has killed the same # of people per capita as NYC.

                    21. “bide time until the vaccine. That is the best we can hope for and do.”

                      If that is your best hope – you should not be voting for Biden.

                      Biden has no clue how to get to a vaccine.
                      Biden will listen to the experts and allow thousands to die waiting for a perfectly safe vaccine.

                      If there is something in September – that is not dangerous as hell, Trump is likely to force it out the door by executive order.

                      But it is trivial to tell from your own remarks – that you will wait for the perfect vaccine – no matter how many people die first.

                      Because you has a smart plan.

                    22. John’s accusation that reopening smartly means a government run economy is both ridiculous and belies his underlying ideological based motivation for believing what it dictates he must believe and the hell with the facts – including the complete failure of the President’s and Sun-belt governors no-plan reopening. It also explains his pretending to know more than scientific experts on climate science and even hurricane tracking, because those suggest levels of common action in response and not just pure market adjustments as his religion insists. Of course examples of effective government action abound and do not therefore lead to affirmation of Soviet Russia as he pretends. His black and white thinking says it all and reveals his intellectual weakness. It’s typical of libertarians who think they have found the unified theory of morality and government in a complex world which has nothing to do with this simplistic explanation. He’s told us as much with his insistence on what is “moral” (his version) and the black and white world he describes.

                      Well anyway, of course setting health and safety standards for reopening is not a soviet style planned economy, or even close to it, but all the same to John. He even yesterday described a local hospitals closing elective surgery – clearing it’s docket for increased virus cases in our surging area – as an act of “leftists”. WTF? This is a private hospital in business to make money and no one in government told them to do that. That doesn’t compute for John and unfortunately there is a lot in the real world that does not compute for him.

                    23. “John’s accusation that reopening smartly means a government run economy ”
                      Ot not only obviously does – it already has.

                      The Dali Lama did not decide what businesses were essential, or how far apart people had to be in a store or resturaunt.

                      Governors did. Further they did so without consulting their legislatures.

                      MAYBE there is limited ability for a governor to act unilaterally for a short time in an emergency.

                      But we are far past a short time. Not only do we have government dictating – and quite badly, how the economy is run, but we have a single person dictating.

                      We have quite literally exactly the conditions our founders revolted against.

                      It is far past time for the courts to say that governors have gone past their emergency powers and further constraints on people must be imposed by actual legislatively enacted laws – not the edicts of governors.

                      “is both ridiculous and belies his underlying ideological based motivation for believing what it dictates he must believe and the hell with the facts”

                      The ideological issue is yours Governors are already running the economy. This is not in question. Businesses and individuals do not have even the poor freedoms they normally have. Those freedoms have been severely limited.

                      That is literally government dictating. That you fail to grasp the obvious reflects YOUR ideological delusions.

                      I would further note that the only difference between what we have now and socialism, is the justification for meddling.

                      The meddling is fundimentally the same.

                      You can buy drywall – but not paint, You can buy vegetables, but not tomato plants.

                      You can stay in your home – but not your vacation cabin.

                      You can play video games – but not basketball. Nor can you hunt or fish or go boating.

                      You can protest the police, but you can not go to church.

                      And on an on.

                      Idiotic pointless, dictats that are self contradictory, and most have little bearing on C19 and its spread at all.

                      “including the complete failure of the President’s”

                      You continue this claim – but you have still not demonstrated a power the president has that Trump has failed to use.
                      The fact is that public health is the domain of the states – Governors.

                      “Sun-belt governors no-plan reopening.”
                      And yet there are 5 times the deaths per capita in Blue states as red.

                      You keep pushing this phoney narrative that blue states have done well and red states badly.

                      Yet the facts absolutely contradict that.

                      “It also explains his pretending to know”
                      Not pretending – all of us can go out and read the actual science of epidemics.

                      It is virtually unchanged for more than 100 years. We have known how epidemics behaved long long before we knew what caused them.
                      This is not rocket science.

                      “more than scientific experts on climate science”
                      I do not claim any such thing.
                      But I do know when someone else’s claim has FAILED.
                      The CAGW thesis has FAILED.
                      That is self evident.
                      Predictions that are off by 2.5 std dev – are not scientific predictions – they are bad guesses – or they are religion.

                      All I claim is to grasp self evident failure when I see it.

                      “and even hurricane tracking,”
                      First we are not debating tracking – no one disagrees over where a huricane has been.
                      We are talking about predictions.

                      The science on that is really poor. That is not intended to be an insult – it is just quite difficult (prediction future climate is about a billion times harder).

                      Regardless – your and my disagreement is not even about that.
                      It is your blindness to the fact that NOAA made a prediction Trump offered that prediction to the public and NOAA then changed the prediction.

                      This is not a disagreement about science. It is another of your stupid disagreements about facts that are self evident.

                      “because those suggest levels of common action in response and not just pure market adjustments as his religion insists.”
                      I have no idea what this BS means. You are the one drowning in ideology and relifion.

                      “Of course examples of effective government action abound”
                      Then you should have little problems demonstrating those.
                      Just to be clear, I have never said we do not need SOME government.

                      Government is force. It’s job is to use force to protect our rights.
                      That is a difficult task and it is rarely done well or efficiently.
                      But there is no alternative we have found to government for that task todate.

                      But any problem that does not require force to solve, should not be solved by government.
                      Government is inefficient – even within its legitimate domain.

                      It is always more inneficient that individuals acting ou their own outside the legitimate domain of government.
                      That is not religion. That is thouasands of years of experience.

                      Some of the worst of which is within the past century.

                      “and do not therefore lead to affirmation of Soviet Russia as he pretends.”
                      No all big government does not lead to the USSR – though the left is channeling Mao and stalin to an unbeleivable extent today

                      But all big govenrment fails.

                      I noted Barro’s data – from arround the world.
                      Government spending generally is between 25-35% as efficient as private spending. This is not some religious claim.
                      This is a significant part of the life’s work of the 4th most respected economist in the world – one from Harvard – not the Mises institute.
                      And you will get no better support from the top 3 or the top 10.

                      There are thousands of economic studies that have been done on the effect of size of government on standard of living.
                      The conclusion of all is pretty much the same.

                      For each 10% of GDP that government consumes, the rate of improvement in standard of living DECLINES by 1%.
                      If that spending is on social welfare programs the decline is 1.25%.

                      We have not plumed the limits of this – obviously failed states with no government to speak of have abysmal standards of living.
                      Btu we know the conclusion about is robust down to governments sizes of 19% of GDP.

                      “His black and white thinking says it all and reveals his intellectual weakness. ”
                      This is not an argument, it is ad hominem.

                      If you want to make a claim – prove it.

                      My thinking is not B&W BTW – I am just not open to pretending that what has failed repeatedly in the past is somehow going to work magically today – because you wish otherwise.

                      If you have real world evidence to support any argument you wish to make – provide it.

                      As an example you keep arguing this C19 red state failure – Blue State success narrative.

                      Who knows if red state deaths actually spike for months, it is possible that you might ultimately prove correct.

                      But as of Today – the Blue States you claim have done it right have 5 times the per capita deaths.

                      I do not know whether Red State governors know what they are doing. But clearly blue state govenors do not.

                      You keep making this claim that the US resembles a 3rd world country. That would be NYC.

                      “it’s typical of libertarians who think they have found the unified theory of morality and government in a complex world”
                      That’s right – the world is complex – and getting more complex by the minute.

                      It is far too complex to be managed top down.

                      The only libertarian simplicity, is grasping that government fails at complexity.

                      The idiotic simplistic unified theory that fails is YOURS.

                      And BTW humans pretty much universally reject the arbitrary use of force as immoral. That is not a libertarain concept.

                      Or can I murder you – just because I want to ?

                      The use of force MUST be justified to be moral. Again not a libertarian concept.

                      But one YOU elide constantly.

                      “He’s told us as much with his insistence on what is “moral” (his version) and the black and white world he describes.”
                      Is there an argument ? If you disagree with the enlightenment understanding of morality – go ahead – make your argument.
                      Prove something better. No one is stopping you. I would however note that the entire concept of modern government and law rests on that moral foundation.

                      “Well anyway, of course setting health and safety standards for reopening is not a soviet style planned economy, or even close to it,”

                      1) It isn;t ? Of course it is.
                      2) it is also self evident that is NOT what you are doing

                      As noted above – why is it safer to buy a tomato than a tomato plant ? to buy drywall than paint ? To shelter at your home rather than your vacation home ?

                      The self evident fact is that no “expert” has a clue what is essential and what is not. In fact our society is so incredibly complex today that absent a return to the abject poverty of the 17th century – most everything is essential.

                      Perhaps you have heard of Malsow’s hierarchy of needs.

                      Only those things at the very bottom of that pyramid are “essential”, but as human standard of living increases, we climb that heirachy.

                      If you try to hack things out from the middle you will find that most everything depends on everything else in some way.

                      We shutdown resturants and suddenly we found ourselves dumping milk into the sewers and Killing cattle in the fields.

                      FDR had to abandon trying to manage the economy top down in order to fight and win WWII.

                      Further you fail to grasp that health and safety are just values.

                      Cave men burned wood and $h!t in badly ventalated caves poisoning themselves and dying young – because they also needed food and heat to survive.

                      The high levels of health and safety that you experience today rest entirely on the high standard of living that you have.

                      If you eliminate fro the economy everything that does not meet some arbitrary standard of essential that you decide – you also eliminate the production of wealth that allows you to have the level of health that you expereince.

                      In 1900 US life expectance was about 45. today it is 78. If you reduce standard of living you reduce life expectance,
                      People took shitty jobs in the past that the knew would eventually kill them – because without those jobs death came sooner

                      Over time Humans shifted from wood and peat and dung for energy to coal, to oil, to gas, not because they were cheaper – they were not and still are not, But because they were cleaner and safer. These were choices people made because they could afford them.

                      If you reduce standard of living – you reduce the health and safety that we can afford.

                      “but all the same to John. He even yesterday described a local hospitals closing elective surgery – clearing it’s docket for increased virus cases in our surging area – as an act of “leftists”. WTF? This is a private hospital in business to make money and no one in government told them to do that. That doesn’t compute for John and unfortunately there is a lot in the real world that does not compute for him.”

                      That would be FALSE. Hospitals did not decide to stop elective surgery on their own. They did so at the direction of government.

                      “March 20, 2020- Albany, NY- Governor Andrew Cuomo holds a press briefing on Coronavirus, Announces cancel all non- critical elective surgery, “

                    24. Given the futility of responding to a true believer like John’s non responsive post, a few points:

                      In defense of his ideological rigidity, with which he struggles to explain all events, John accuses me of just representing an alternative rigidity, without saying what it is. John, it’s pragmatism – what works? As a longtime business owner I am both a participant in and beneficiary of our market economy, but that does not require me – as it does John – to deny the benefit of government involvement in initiatives either too big, too long range, or not profitable enough to be accomplished by private businesses. Among these are land grant universities, universal health care insurance for seniors – both of which are more efficient and cheaper than their private counterparts – infrastructure needs, including the interstate system, ports,etc., public hospitals and housing, universal baseline retirement, technological initiatives and research – including the system which yielded the internet that we are conversing on now, and a high percentage of medical advancements – and providing steady cash flows during the booms and busts which are inherent in market economies. All countries in the developed world have learned the value, if not necessity, of these uses of government. If John wants to counter with the agreed to failure of the Soviet economy as the proof of overall government futility, he needs to update his data by using China.

                      John repeatedly has ascribed opinions to me that I have not expressed. No, I have not praised blue state responses to the virus, though I have accurately stated that lessons were learned in those first hit states which have led to the decline in deaths relative to case numbers in obvious ways John wants to pretend demonstrate a superior plan – there is no plan in most. Hellooo! Old people are staying home! Yeah, rocket science. This simple improvement is something John wants to see compromised with their kids and grand kids partying it up.

                      The local hospital I mentioned which stopped elective surgery – again – is not under Gov Cuomo’s authority, nor was last week in the month of March. John offered an edict from that official in that month as proof for his contention that it showed government interference.

                      Long story short, libertarians are easy pickings, but quickly become tiresome and boring. Do you have another act John?

                    25. Do you have an actual argument ?

                      Do you have one EVER ?

                      You are projecting.

                      I have made arguments providing facts, data and support for my positions. That is not ideology, that is real world facts, logic, reason.

                      I do not accuse you of rigid ideology – your own conduct and posts accuse you of that.

                      “As a longtime business owner I am both a participant in and beneficiary of our market economy, ”
                      Neither relevant nor credible.

                      “deny the benefit of government involvement”
                      The real world facts do that. I have asked you REPEATEDLY for EVIDENCE – a real world example of a government program that was beneficial and efficient. The fact is you should be required to JUSTIFY anything you seek to do by force A PRIORI – but I am letting you get away with after the fact proof that what you choose is effective.

                      Yet you have failed to do so. You should think that with myriads of regulations and government actions – you should be able to find one instances where government action had changed a trend, bent a curve, resulted in an improvement that was not already self evidently happening.

                      Yet, you have offered nothing – zip, nada, zilch.

                      There must be atleast one instance in hundreads of governments over the past several hundred years where you could demonstrate that govenrment outside of its core functions of punishing actual criminals, enforcing an arbitrating contracts, and enforcing torts, and providing national defense that you could come up with something that demonstrably worked.

                      Even the laws of probability should mean that no matter how bad government is there should be a few success stories.

                      BTW – I do not doubt that there are a few, though I will be surprised if you can find any.

                      In then end you need to find more than a few counter examples. For this type of govenrment action to be legitimate, it has to be effective pretty much ALWAYS – not once in a while.

                      You are not allowed to use force to beat up your neighbor – because once in a while they might actually deserve it.

                      “Among these are”

                      I did not ask you for claims – I asked you for examples – that means you are obligated to prove that the examples that you provided were effective – that the outcome was better than if government would have done nothing.

                      “land grant universities”
                      The constitution prohibits the federal government from holding land in the states but for very narrow purposes.
                      From the start of this country the government has been selling or giving away its holdings. Because out founders were clear that property needed to be held by private people. To the extent there is a problem with “land grant univertsities – it is that the government was just to get rid of the land period – and not fixate on the purpose.

                      Beyond that – isn’t providing some benefit selectively to one group inherently disadvantaging those who accomplished the same thing without government assistance ? Aren’t you cheating those universities and colleges that did NOT arrise as a result of land grants ?

                      You do not ever seem to consider more than the obvious first order effects of anything you do.

                      “universal health care insurance for seniors”
                      Which is the single largest factor in driving the cost of health care through the roof.
                      and has had know known benefit for seniors.

                      The insurance companies have extensively studied health insurance for decades – some studies running more than 50 years.

                      THERE IS NO HEALTH BENENFIT TO HEALTH INSURANCE.

                      Insurance companies were desparate to find one. There is none.

                      More recently there was the result of the famous oregon experiment – where the state of oregon was able to provide health insurance to about half of all indigents in oregon, and did so on a randomized basis.

                      The results should have devastated the left – no discernable difference in health outcomes between those who got insurance and those who did not.

                      You do not just get to assert that something works because it sounds good.

                      Everyone supports the “All Puppies Go To Heaven Act” – until they discover it is a plan for mass euthanizing dogs.

                      You have to PROVE the claims you make. pleasant sounding programs are not proof of effectiveness.

                      “both of which are more efficient and cheaper than their private counterpart”
                      FALSE – the burden on YOU is to prove that.
                      Medicare is heaving subsidized by private insurance. One of the reason that M4A is so expensive is that medicare is already rediculously expensive – it is running several hundred million in the red every year – and that deficit will get exponentially worse the larger the portion of the healthcare market medicare makes up – and that is based on the government estimates – the reality is almost certainly worse.

                      We have had ports throughout the world without government, and even within the US the ports are privately owned. Government has a policing role as well as a tarriff role.

                      The actual trade and trade infrastructure is PRIVATE.

                      “public hospitals”
                      The overwhelming majority of hospitals in the country are PRIVATE – and always have been. Even today about 30% of them are catholic and have been for hundreds of years. Though PPACA has been very effectively destroying private religious hospitals which are slowling being bought up by private conglomerates.

                      “Public housing”
                      Really ? Every here of Cabrini Green ?
                      Public housing has been a disaster – it is unsafe, badly maintained. and a huge waste of money.

                      “universal baseline retirement”
                      Can you actually use the right words – there is no such thing as “universal baseline retirment” – there is social security which as always been a boondoggle. It is a means of ripping off the poor and working classes. Any moron can do better than SS. Myriads of companies have had private systems that have been incredibly effective and raised people out of poverty.

                      Not only does SS impoverish people – it impoverishes their heirs. If I invest privately, whatever I do not spend before I die goes to my children, SS goes to the government. SS is a deliberately socialist program and its actual beneficiary was always intended to be government. Once again you fail. SS is inefficient, and a loser compared to any private equivalent. And if you do not grasp that you are clueless.
                      ” technological initiatives and research”
                      Government does not pay for most research – it is mostly private, and government research is by far less efficient producing less benefits.

                      “including the system which yielded the internet”
                      How old are you ? I was actually arround as the internet was created.
                      Nearly everything about its development was private. It ran over the private phone network, it used private hardware,
                      It was based on work done by the Model RR club at MIT.

                      Very very little of the internet has its foundations in government research grants.
                      But if you want to play that game – well the foundations of the whole thing go back to Babagge

                      “high percentage of medical advancements”
                      Nope. Government medical research has been disastrous – yeilding very little of benefit. Nearly all medical advances are private.

                      “and providing steady cash flows during the booms and busts which are inherent in market economies.:”
                      So something that never really happened is providing benefits ?

                      “All countries in the developed world have learned the value, if not necessity, of these uses of government.”
                      All politicians in the world have learned the political benefit of controlling the economy.
                      That is all.
                      We have a situation where all the incentives are wrong and we know it, and it is slowly destructive – and you are celebrating this ?

                      The largest source of political corruption arrises from the private benefit that can arrise from public control of the economy.

                      The entire concept is ridiculously stupid and corrupt. If you get government out of the economy you end by far the largest single source of political corruption. And you have private entities investing in actual inovation in the competitive market rather than trying to buy policiticans.

                      You really are incapable of grasping the actual impact of your idiotic actions.

                      Here is the beginings of an education http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html

                      “If John wants to counter with the agreed to failure of the Soviet economy as the proof of overall government futility, he needs to update his data by using China.”
                      China is easy – try reading this – by Ronald Coase one of the 4 most influential economists of the past 100 years.
                      Regardless the story of China’s rise is rooted entirely in the post mao willingness of the chinese govenrment to turn a blind eye to incremental increases in economic freedom at the margins that were ruthlessly destroyed under Mao.

                      Abhsolutely NOTHING about the rise of china has anything to do with the Chinese government – beyond turning a blind eye to sureptitious increases in economic freedom. I would further note that Coase who died in 2013 noted that China must move to providing political freedom or it will retrench – which is exactly what we are seeing under Xi.

                      https://www.amazon.com/How-China-Became-Capitalist-Coase-ebook/dp/B00885UFU4/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&hvadid=77721791406287&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=how+china+became+capitalist&qid=1595595892&sr=8-2&tag=mh0b-20

                      “I have not praised blue state responses to the virus”
                      You can not claim that red states have failed without implying that blue states have succeeded.
                      You can not claim that other countries have done better than the US without turning a blind eye to the fact that the actual US failure is in vlue states.

                      “though I have accurately stated that lessons were learned in those first hit states which have led to the decline in deaths relative to case numbers in obvious ways”
                      No you have FAILED to make that case. The improvements in medical care have been modest. The difference in death rates is dramatice.
                      What is obvious is that medical treatment is NOT responsible for the difference in deaths.

                      “John wants to pretend demonstrate a superior plan”
                      You are clueless. My argument is ANTI central planning. You are the great beleiver is government plans.

                      “Old people are staying home! Yeah, rocket science. This simple improvement is something John wants to see compromised with their kids and grand kids partying it up.”
                      You have no idea what gibberish you are spouting. This is not about Old people staying home. Not only are the vast majority of deaths in older people – they are in institutionalized old people with serious health problems.
                      Recent observations from “experts” on data based epidemiology beleive that more than half of all C19 deaths world wide are in people who were dying within 6 months NO MATTER WHAT. They are expecting that when the data is fully sorted that there will be no change in the yearly total death rate in 2020 in the world or in individual countries as a result of C19.

                      Once again – you get some idea in your head – it sounds good and you claim that is what will happen or what did happen – without ever bothering to check with the data.

                      “The local hospital I mentioned which stopped elective surgery”
                      ” is not under Gov Cuomo’s authority”
                      If it was in NY it absolutely was.

                      Regardless it is impossible to address vague claims. There is no way to be able to verify anything you claim – and you have a track record for innaccuracy and error.

                      “John offered an edict from that official in that month as proof for his contention that it showed government interference.”
                      You made a broad claim and I refuted it.

                      Separately there is excellent reason to beleive your claim is nonsense.

                      The elective surgery facets of hospitals are always independent of the infectious disease treatment.
                      Often these are in different physical facilities.

                      There are probably 6 or 7 elective surgery centers in my community. Only one of those is in the same physical building as infectuous disease treatment. And even there they are substantially separated vertically and horizontally.

                      Now had we been wise we would have kept C19 (and influenza and all infectuous diseases) in entirely different facilites. As we did in the distant past, and as they did in China – in so called fever hospitals.

                      There is absolutely no problem doing all the myriads of things that our medical systems do all the time – so long as we do not mix those with C19 patients. And there is minimal reason for those things to be shared.

                      The decision to bring C19 patients into our hospitals was nearly as stupid as sending recovering patients into nursing homes.

                      Long story short,Left wing nuts and other statists are easy picking – because they are completely clueless, they have no idea what the actual facts are and they are fascinated by sparkly claims, without ever bothering to check that the baubles live up to expectations.

                      REgardless BTB – again you have FAILED.

                    26. John might make fewer internally inconsistent and just plain stupid arguments if he tried fewer words. In his case a direct ratio is evident. We get your inability to grasp complex issues and desire to fit them into rigid libertarian beliefs, but being ruled by one simple principles is turning you into a simpleton.

                      My ownership of a business for 50 years now is relevant to my understanding of how markets in the real world as well as my appreciation of them. That you doubt that I do is of no matter to me. I’ll still make payroll every Wednesday.

                      After spending paragraphs denouncing my supposed unwillingness to cite examples of beneficial government initiatives he offers garden variety crackpot libertarian reasons why those I do cite (say what?) are not beneficial. Of course no state or country in the world is run on his principles – and never will be – , which should give a smarter human pause.

                      A few:

                      Citizens through our elected state and federal governments have decided that universities are of direct benefit to individuals who attend – and who should definitely be appreciative of Joe Six Packs partial funding of them – and indirect benefit to the state and nation in which they are located. That privates can’t compete is something John might address – never mind. Over the head of a libertarian, but no matter.

                      Poverty among seniors was a serious problem in the early 20th century and of course before, and is now much lessened due to SS and Medicare. Even middle class senior GOP strongholds like The VIllages would not exist without them and Grandma and Grandpa Jones out on the back 40 would have to leave their mobile home without them. Medicare pays significantly less than other retail and insurance companies and sets the pricing. This is exactly the method used by all the other developed countries which also feature universal coverage and per capita payments of roughly 60% what we pay (and with similar results and patient satisfaction levels) – the government negotiates the price with providers (in some countries the government is the provider).. If John doesn’t know this he should type less and read more.

                      Perhaps he prefers private toll roads to the interstate, doesn’t care that public hospitals are usually the go to care givers for those without his means, and doesn’t understand that public housing exists in every city of any size, and while not what we aspire to, provide housing with amenities like plumbing for those making the minimum wage. If there was a better alternative, they would not be in places as diverse as Oklahoma and Maine. Yes, I knew Cabrini-Green as my daughter lived a few blocks away, and it’s a lesson in the failure of large sterile and modern hardscapes that some architects and planners liked on paper.

                    27. “John might make fewer internally inconsistent and just plain stupid arguments if he tried fewer words.”
                      Naked assertion
                      Worse you not only do not prove error,
                      you do not even specifically assert it.

                      BE SPECIFIC. Try clear specific words, actual arguments – using facts , data, logic and reason.

                      Not vague naked assertions that do not have any connection to reality.

                      If claim inconsistencies – then Identify them SPECIFICALLY.

                      Otherwise you are just engaging in muddy defamation.
                      Why is that not surprising.

                      “In his case a direct ratio is evident.”
                      And yet there is no substance to anything you write.

                      “We get your inability”
                      Is there are mouse in your pocket ?
                      I speak for myself – you speak for yourself.
                      You are neither king nor pope.

                      “My ownership of a business for 50 years now”

                      BTB – you have tried to sell the collusion delusion – as somebody who has actually created and run many businesses, I am dubious about your claims of business experience.

                      “is relevant to my understanding of how markets in the real world as well as my appreciation of them. That you doubt that I do is of no matter to me. I’ll still make payroll every Wednesday.”

                      I have a great deal of respect for those who have successfully run businesses – having done so myself.
                      People who have had to make payroll do not spew the nonsense you are spewing.

                      People who have been in business long grasp that the most fundimental aspect of business – or life is the creation of value.
                      That that is both the cause and the payment for all improvement.

                      You are competely clueless to that.

                      “After spending paragraphs denouncing my supposed unwillingness to cite examples of beneficial government initiatives he offers garden variety crackpot libertarian reasons why those I do cite (say what?) are not beneficial. ”
                      It is garden variety that the sun rises every morning and sets every night. Something is not crackpot because it is banal.
                      Regardless, you have slandered my arguments – you have not refuted them.

                      “Of course no state or country in the world is run on his principles – and never will be”
                      Actually false.
                      WE can look at every single country in the world – and to the extent that they incorporate greater freedom – they improve, and to the extent that they do not they fail. You cited China – I would strongly suggest reading Coase on China – or actually learning about China, or India, or much of the rest of the world.

                      Or you can read
                      “The Commanding Heights: The Battle for the World Economy” which is a compellingly documented survey of the battle of ideas in economics and how it played out in the world economy and what the conseuqnces of different ideas were from immediatley post WWII through the 21st century.

                      There is also an excellent PBS/BBC series that is more digestable than the book – but you really need the book for the data.
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfRTpoYpHfw

                      I would further note that there is a multi-millenia example of successful anarcho-capitalism – the most extreme form of libertarianism.
                      And that would be the relationship of the nations of the world to each other.

                      So your claim that libertarianism has no expamples of success is ludicrously stupid – we have myriads.
                      Everything else keeps failing. The entire world depends on incorporating atleast some libertarianism into their governance to be able to survive.

                      “which should give a smarter human pause.” absolutely – the lack of any success of anything else should give you pause.

                      “Citizens through our elected state and federal governments have decided that universities are of direct benefit to individuals who attend”
                      And this is supposed to mean ?

                      If we all decide that heterosexuality is no longer beneficial and quit practicining it – will humanity magically survive by reproducing from fingernail clippings ?

                      Make an actual argument – FACTS, DATA, LOGIC REASON.

                      Not this idiotic nonsense that your personal preferences or even those of some majority will magically work because you have decided they will.

                      Wheels are round rather than square because that works – not because people decided they prefered round wheels.

                      “That privates can’t compete is something John might address”
                      Trivial – Private anything but in this case education, has never had a problem competing.
                      If we evaluated private education based on cost and value – public education would have vaporized long ago.
                      I beleive the current cost of public education is about 16K/student/year.
                      There are a dozen of the best private schools within 20 minutes of me that cost less and do far better.
                      There is a highly elite boarding school within a few miles that costs slightly more and will not only educate you far better by will leave you connected for life.

                      At the oppose end of the spectum there are catholic schools – educating a significant percent of students in the country, at a tiny fraction of the cost of public schools and doing a better job overall.

                      Public schools exist for a single reason – government FORCE.
                      They could not compete if they had to deliver value to justify their cost.
                      No one would pay 16K to go to a public school when they could go to a catholic school for 1/6th that or an excellent private school for 1/2 that.

                      never mind. Over the head of a statist no matter.

                      “Poverty among seniors was a serious problem in the early 20th century and of course before,”
                      Because you say so ?

                      relative poverty was a problem in every era before the currrent one – and in the future will be so for every era before.
                      Because at all ages and all classes we will always have been poorer in the past that the present.

                      In the 1400;s 99.99% of people lived in abject poverty. They labored from dawn to dusk to survive. The slightest blip could result in catastrophe and starvation or death.

                      Those have not improved because of social security and medicare – they have improved because we increasingly produce ever more value – because our standard of living rises.

                      “is now much lessened due to SS and Medicare.”
                      There is no evidence that SS disrupted an improving trend dating long before FDR.

                      There is no evidence of any actual benefit from medcate.

                      “Even middle class senior GOP strongholds like The VIllages would not exist without them”
                      What nonsense. You seem to think because your imagination is limited that getting rid of something that has been little benefit and great cost would automatically make us worse.

                      “Grandma and Grandpa Jones out on the back 40 would have to leave their mobile home without them.”
                      I would suggest actually learning something about how people lived in the past. While it is absolutely certain they would live better today – just because of rising standard of living, you spray this nonsense that had some stupid program of yours never happened – that people would be worse off not better.

                      I live in a community with lots of amish. They do not collect Social Security, they have multigenerational families that follow a long circle of birth life and death – a circle that functioned in much of the world long before SS and functions in much of the rest of the world today. ‘

                      I am not setting the amish up as the ideal just proof that you do not know what you are talking about.

                      I would note that the very programs you celebrate have destroyed not just the extended family, but even the nuclear family in the US.

                      Was that such a good thing ?

                      Absent SS we would not all live like the amish. But the presumption that old people would all die in poverty – or that they all did in the past is both historical nonsense and the absence of any ability to see the world in anyway but through your statist blinders.

                      “Medicare pays significantly less than other retail and insurance companies and sets the pricing. ”
                      The result of which is that 25% of the cost of medicare is subsidized buy private medical care – that is not savings, that is just passing the buck. I would further note that medicare has the worst track record for fraud – at tremendous cost.

                      You may not grasp this – but politicians actually do – M4A is highly unlikely – because expanding medicare will radically increase its cost as it consumes the private healthcare that subsidizes it.

                      “This is exactly the method used by all the other developed countries”
                      Actually no it is not. The health care systems in Europe and other developed nations are extremely widely varied.
                      Most have completely private providers, Most have markets set prices – not government. What most have in common that the US does not is a mandate that everyone must have insurance – that is all. With a few exceptions much of the rest of the world is actually more free market than the US in healthcare. Even the UK has a rapidly developing completely free market private healthcare and insurance system that ultimately will either replace the NHS or relegate it exclusively to the poor.

                      “which also feature universal coverage and per capita payments of roughly 60% what we pay (and with similar results and patient satisfaction levels) – the government negotiates the price with providers (in some countries the government is the provider).. If John doesn’t know this he should type less and read more.”

                      Again you are making blanket and false statements about the rest of the world. Which you clearly are unfamiliar with.
                      Switzerland has an entirely free market healthcare system. They have a health insurance mandate and some fundimental requirements for that health insurance – which are the OPPOSITE of what you imagine – the swiss REQUIRE that patients must pay 1/3 of the cost of ordinary medical care, and certain portions of major medical. The swiss are aware or what statists are not that there is massive moral hazard in health insurance. And that controlling moral hazard is a requirement to control medical costs. Moral hazard does not exist in private insurance – absent government regulation, because insurance companies would not survive if it did.

                      “Perhaps he prefers private toll roads to the interstate”
                      Again a complete lack of imagination.

                      First – when is the last time you traveled the interstate ? I can not get very far today without an easy pass.
                      Is there some fundimental difference in your mind between public and private tolls ?

                      Prior to (and even partway through) the construction of the brooklynn bridge every major bridge in this country was constructed privately.
                      Tammeny hall FORCED the Brooklynn bridge int ot he public sphere – it should be enough to grasp that public infrastructure began with Boss Tweed to grasp the process is corrupt.

                      Regardless there is a major city in China with entirely private infrastucture. Roads sewers, etc. The businesses in the city get together and agree what needs done and pay for it themselves, and ordinary people end up with the benefit. This occured because they were tired of waiting for government to solve their problems.

                      In most of the world roads are private.

                      Regardless, you seem to think that the only to get infrustructure is through tolls.

                      I remember when I first bought internet services from a private ISP as a flat rate per month. I was releatedly told the flat rate model would got away and be replaced by data rates or minutes like phone service. Yet what has actually happened is that phone service has gone to flat rates.

                      The point is that you should not presume that if government does not provide something that there is only a single private way to provide something and pay for it. There is not. You have no immagination.

                      I find it hard to beleive you have run a business.

                      “doesn’t care that public hospitals are usually the go to care givers for those without his means”
                      For most of US history that would have been catholic hospitals.
                      You are also blatantly ignorant of hospitals. Every hospital in the country is required to accept whoever comes to their door.
                      And the vast majority did so long before that was law.

                      “and doesn’t understand that public housing exists in every city of any size”
                      And is an abysmal hell that everyone in it wants out of.
                      Worse still public housing actually costs the government much more than private housing would have cost overall.
                      This is your idea of success ?

                      “and while not what we aspire to”
                      Nothing government ever does is. Worse it not only does not improve, it actually degrades.
                      Cabrini Green is fortunately gone.

                      “provide housing with amenities like plumbing for those making the minimum wage.”
                      On one of my many business endeavors, I am a landlord. All my tenants are minimum wage – they all have plumbing and all the other amenities you would expect, and they are better off than public housing.

                      I must provide my tenants with competitive value for the rent I collect. I can not charge more than market prices, and I must provide all the benefits that they would get elsewhere. And I am constantly improving my apartments because I must to continue to attract tenants.

                      “If there was a better alternative, they would not be in places as diverse as Oklahoma and Maine.”
                      Because you say so ?

                      “Yes, I knew Cabrini-Green as my daughter lived a few blocks away, and it’s a lesson in the failure of large sterile and modern hardscapes that some architects and planners liked on paper.”

                      Absolutely Cabrini Green is a failure of architecture. But it is also a failure of the vision of statists like yourself.
                      Cabrini-Green would have been absymal had it been more aestheticly human. Though I would note that we have myriads of cabrini-greens arround the country – because that soviet style appeals to statists everywhere. And they all fail the same.

                      But even at smaller scale – my town has public housing that resembles town houses. It has all the problems of crime and drugs and degradation as cabrini green.

                      The fundimental problem is government ownership. The government is an abysmal steward of what it owns. Tenants do not care, and govenrment will not evict or place demands on tenants and government itself does not care.
                      Landlords would be jailed for the conditions that government allows its tenants to live in.

                2. “Absurd, if you believe this virus is ‘no worse than a cold’, you are in the vacuum-sealed dumpster with Alan and John.”

                  For those under 20 – it is not nearly as bad as a cold – that is a fact – even Wapo has reported that.
                  Most people under 20 have no symptoms. They usually do not even know they had it.
                  It is far less bad than a cold.
                  If you are between 20-40 it is about as bad as a cold.
                  If you are over 40 and especially if you have other health issues it can be very serious.

                  How seriously you should be concerned about C19 depends on your age and health.

                  1. Good thing we isolate people by age and that these kids all take care of themselves at school and home.

                    1. Your daughter is 45. She’s not in danger from this virus.

                    2. How many teachers do you know in their 60’s ?

                      Regardless, if you are a teacher and you are terrified – quit. I am sure there is someone younger to replace you.

                    3. The median retirement age for teachers is 59. It’s a reasonable inference that the % of teachers who are over 60 is in single digits. Teachers over 50 with BMI issues would also be a modest share. You need to furlough the vulnerable.

                    4. If the impediment to reopening schools is some small portion of teachers who are elderly or in poor health.

                      Reopen the schools. We can solve the teacher problem.

                      There is no reason a few thousand teachers should keep a few million students out of school.

                3. Peter, in Introduction to Reading Comprehension, you will learn that a statement about taxa is only a statement about the essential and invariant properties of those taxa. Your seasonal flu and the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic are both derived from influenza viruses. That doesn’t mean they’ take the same course or have the same distribution of effects. Coronavirises are one of the types of virus which generate colds, not flu. Doesn’t mean that the course of the illness is the same as that of an ordinary cold.

                  1. well TIA you’re treating language seriously as if words matter. that’s not something Democrat cheerleaders are used to doing.
                    they are irresponsible propagandists from top to bottom

            2. “John, Trump supporters”
              Did not vote for Trump in 2016, not likely to in 2020.
              “have this manic desire to keep the conversation focused on ‘only’ deaths.”
              Because deaths are the most important
              Ask anyone – do you want C19 and live or C19 and die.
              I am pretty sure Trump supporters will pick C19 and live – maybe lefties would prefer dying.

              I have also noted that hospitalizations are dropping.
              That means serious cases are dropping.

              If there is a real huge spike in asymptomatic cases – I do not care.

              I do not beleive there is. I do not think you beleive there is either.

              “Because if you believe Donald Trump, the virus is ‘no worse than a cold’.”
              For the vast majority of people that is true – in fact for people under 20 it is typically much less severe than a cold.
              The majority of people who get it never know.

              “Therefore in the minds of Trumpers, deaths are the only important statistic.”
              Hospitalizations matter too.

              Both are significant for another reason – they are uneffected by changes in the frequency of testing.

              “By this odd measure the virus is in retreat since deaths are down.”
              Not at all an odd measure. And yes the virus is in retreat.

              “This whole line of thinking is massive denial.”
              Nope, when you have a collection of statistics that give you conflicting conclusions. you have to evaluate those statistics.

              Deaths and hospitalizations are:
              The most important numbers.
              The most accurate numbers
              The least distorted numbers
              If they are going one way and some other measure that is less accurate and less important is going another.
              We discount the importance of that measure.

              I have offered to bet my vote against yours.

              How much confidence do you have in your claims ?

              If every one of 330M people got a 14day flu we would not have closed schools or shutdown the economy.

              WE did not do that because some people had mild symptoms, We did that because 4000 people were dying per day.
              Now it is 400.

              On the average day in the US 7400 people die from other causes.

              “The virus is surging in most of the country and businesses are afraid to reopen for fear of litigation and other complications.”
              If you are a business and you do not wish to reopen – don’t.

              ” What’s more, THERE IS NO FEDERAL LEADERSHIP.”
              Not important. and further, you would not follow no matter what Trump did.

              I do not need the federal or any other government to tell me how to live.

    2. Get yourself a news source that doesn’t have their knee on your neck.

      This below is now old news about how Dr Fauci/NIH/CDC were cooking the science/numbers they’ve been feeding you/gen pop.

      This is why Trump got out of WHO & pulled the hospital’s number of cases/deaths from CDC & gave it to HHS last week.

      ( If they had one case, they were told to count it as 16 cases!!!)

      BTW: always a great time to start Home Schooling & forgot public sh*thole schools!

      https://banned.video/watch?id=5efab695672706002f367a0a

      1. Conservatives, what will it take to make you quit the gov. schools??? Stop it already. This no longer the age of “go along to get along! Spot on Oky1

  7. Shame on Acosta and CNN and Todd and NBC! Jonathan Turley is Correct and a very Honorable MAN!

  8. And I was hoping you’d give up the nit picking to focus on the real problem here…, that the adminstration is trying to fit itself into the group of countries who’ve done the work and lowered cases enough to sequentially and safely open schools in the fall (for in person classes). However it looks to be that you’re doubling down on the technicalities of how the press secretary got caught in splitting hairs.

    Maybe this type of trolling for hits will someday circle back into relevence once again, Professor. But for now, you’re solidifying your cheerleader role in the collapse of the nation.

    1. Actually partly because of the trolls like you on this blog and the intolerant Dems, gun sales are up, so up that we at home can not find AR-15 rifles x 2. So nah, when the Dims unleash their Spartacus, Americans will be ready

      Trolling for dollars is so 2016, ya know?

      😉

        1. +10

          bug gets it right.

          plenty of ‘cray’ on display in the comments section

      1. We found this video on AR-15 setup very helpful. We get our gear at SPORTSMAN’S WAREHOUSE. Plenty of inventory

        1. I like the fixed iron sights tandem with the optics. I think optics are over rated. Mainly you need a rifle and know how to use it. better a level gun you can use than fancy gadgets you cant

          ps NODS are not NADS. NADS are gonads. NODs are night operating devices. this guy talks too much jargon

    2. “And I was hoping you’d give up the nit picking to focus on the real problem here…, that the adminstration is trying to fit itself into the group of countries who’ve done the work and lowered cases”

      and yet that would NOT be the case – there is no evidence that any countries policies have had any effect on C19.
      You can predict outcomes throughout the world based solely on demographics and latitude.
      There is no policy choice that correlates to a better outcome.

      “enough to sequentially and safely open schools in the fall (for in person classes).”
      The actual science is that C19 is much less dangerous from those under 20 than the flu – there was never a reason to shut schools down in the first place. There was never a good reason to shut anything down in the first place.

      “However it looks to be that you’re doubling down on the technicalities”
      No we are doubling down on facts, data, logic, reason and science.

      ” of how the press secretary got caught in splitting hairs.”
      No, that would be the press, and the left. You got caught selectively editing to distort the meaning of what McEnany said to paint it as meaning the opposite – even the edited part does not actually clearly mean what you claim. Regardless it is clear with two sentences of context that the press lied.

      I would ask you – do you personally wish to continue to obviously falsely defame McEnany ? Do you have no shame ?

      “Maybe this type of trolling for hits will someday circle back into relevence once again, Professor.”
      It is the left and the media engaged in trolling here.

      “But for now, you’re solidifying your cheerleader role in the collapse of the nation.”

      What rot. The nation is in no danger of collapse. The only threat to the country at the moment is from the left.
      Trump’s most egregious conduct is inconsequential compared to his predecessors.
      While he has fallen short of very ambitious promises, he has also accomplished large portions of many of them.
      And the world has not come to an end.

      A significant reduction in new regulations, a significant reduction in old regulations, has not lead to poisoned water, and food, people dying in the streets.
      Releasing the fracken has dramatically altered the US position in geopolitics for the better, and yet US CO2 emissions continued to decline – if that even mattered.

      The economy may not be living up to Trump’s braggs, but it is the best economy in the 21st century. There is still an excellent chance that with a deliberately caused and severe C19 recession that Trump’s 4year growth will still average better than Obama’s.

      Obama promised to get us out of stupid wars in the mideast. Instead he started new ones.
      The US will not be fighting in the mideast very shortly.
      Obama promised. Trump accomplished.

      Please name a single Trump related issue that is any kind of threat to the country ?
      There aren’t any.

      You and your ilk have spent the past 4 years in a gigantic temper tantrum over nothing.
      You have made it clear that you are all a bunch of clueless toddlers, and should be treated as such.

    3. I’ll bet you didn’t say that with a straight face. Obama taught you well, “whatever we do, blame the conservatives first for the same thing. It will shock them into silence.” It is as laughable a former thread of threatening us with civil unrest if we don’t ignore the facts. Well, we are there now, and you might see the next wave of civil unrest as something you very much regret.

  9. When NBC Nightly News decided it was “news” that NASCAR banned the Confederate flag, the video footage they chose to air as Lester Holt mouthed the words someone typed into a teleprompter for him showed a Confederate flag waving at a NASCAR event. Except the video also had a Trump flag waving next to the Confederate flag.

    Lester Holt did not mention the presence of the Trump flag. The intent was to manipulate viewers subconscious. NBC wanted viewers to associate in the minds Trump with the Confederate flag. Sort of a subliminal marketing technique.

    I watched how ABC covered it. The video footage they chose to air while their millionaire marionette read words from the teleprompter did not have a Trump flag next to the Confederate flag. They chose not to try to manipulate their viewers into associating Trump with the Confederate flag the way the NBC propagandists did.

    A day or two later NBC Nightly News ran the eleventeen billionth negative story about Trump. This time, as the millionaire puppet Lester Holt mouthed the words someone typed into his teleprompter, NBC flashed a photo of Trump in the background. The photo was very unflattering. The photographer caught Trump in an unposed moment making a goofy face. There must be several thousands of photos of the President of the United States to choose from. NBC Nightly News chose a very unflattering. Again, it’s manipulative. Another subliminal trick to make the viewers feel a certain way.

    From what I can tell nothing Holt said was false. But NBC engaged in manipulative propaganda nonetheless.

    Some might form the opinion that NBC is an enemy of the people.

    1. Chuck Todd is a Democrat hack masquerading as a TV journalist. He should come clean and get a job at the Democrat Nat’l Committee.

      1. Warren……….I think Chuck is a 14 yr old cheerleader named Debbie who is itchin’ to bring her pom poms on-set.
        Maybe next week, Debbie!

  10. Why hasn’t ATT’s CNN already registered as a Foreign Agent for Commie China???

      1. NYT doxxing Tucker. tsk, tsk. they are targeting him and attempting to intimidate him by encouraging third party violence

        that can cut both ways… maybe somebody will go kinetic on NYT… ya know, “direct action” stuff like ANTIFA talks about all the time
        i’ts not just left wing nutjobs who pop off, all kinds can do the same.

        when you destroy law and order, ya never know what’s coming next. can be pretty unpredictable. but some fools always want to give it a try

        tick tock tick tock, this pressure cooker is counting down…. play with fire, get burned

  11. Jon Sez —- Wrong again. The latest Worldometer figure for US deaths due to COVID-19 is 412.

    1. David. There is no context in what you say. We don’t have a quote of what John said or a location. That leaves the decision of who is right up to the reader. Since John has been right with regards to numbers more than you one has to conclude that what you say is wrong.

      Copy and include the context of your remarks in your response

      1. Allan: please shove the nearest broom stick up your butt and push it around the room for us.

        1. Why would you say such a stupid thing except for the fact that you are a boor with aggressive tendencies.

          I guess you like hearing conclusions without any data. That demonstates a lack of intellect.

              1. Put the spellcheck down and use a calculator. Then let us know in English what you have found. That is something you won’t and can’t do. The calculator doesn’t think and neither do you.

            1. As the article points out, and as the previous path of CV 19 holds, the time to assess deaths is 3 weeks out from hospital & ICU inundation. In other words 14-21 days from now in Florida, Texas and Arizona. Let’s talk then.

              What you’ve done here is cherry pick one of the many graphs, meant to be used as a predictive comparison for the states now experiencing ramp up by looking at Covid’s previous pathways. A before leading to a projected after. I don’t think your dishonesty, disingenuousness and trump fueled gullibility can let you do anything other, to be honest.Fox news trained this thinking model in you. Problem is, it’s totally flawed thinking based on an overly reductive dishonesty. A divide and conquer technique which can’t work when faced with the truth because the only recourse available to you is to get people to deny what they’re seeing with their own eyes and experience.

              How’s it working out for you so far?

              1. You constantly find out that what you have said is wrong and you constantly push the discussion into the future which proves you wrong again. You never say anything that commits you to anything more than generalities.

                Tell us how many are going to die in Florida in the next 14 -21 days. You won’t put a number but in 14 to 21 days you will once again say we have to look in 14-21 days.

                I didn’t cherry pick any graph. I showed you a graph from YOUR article that represents the truth and demonstrates that the mathematics you suggest for the future will put Florida and Texas in the same league as those states in the graph.

                Anything is possible but if one can run the numbers the likelihood is extrememly low and not something one uses to create appropriate policy.

                You actively continue to say I am lying but what I have said in the past is mostly consistent with what has happened. If you had evidence for your claims you would show the evidence but you depend on lies and refuse to deal with the facts.

                1. This is what happens when teachers spend more time teaching boys they can be girls and girls they can be boys and all the white children they are racist, rather than math.

              2. The purported increase in infections in TX began before Mid June
                In FL if began in early june.
                In AZ it began in late may
                CA which has been on the tightest lockdown in the country has had a rising trend since march.

                It has been 6-8 weeks – you should already see a significant rise in deaths and hospitalizations.

                What we actually saw was the small rise in both consistent with reopening and we are now seeing both slowly decline.

                Conversely CA is showing a very slow rise in the deaths per day.

            2. Your article is a forecast – and not a good one. ‘

              Good forecasts are useful.
              But they are still guesses, not data.

  12. So all these people pointing to the news and the facts as evidence that this Administration has “botched” the coronavirus response, what news? What facts? As this blog post points out yet again, the news and the facts are routinely twisted and shaped to fit a narrative. According to Prof. Raoult, the common pattern of a pandemic is: the bug appears, it accelerates, it weakens, and it disappears on its own for reasons nobody fully understands. In the rest of the world, the virus is following that pattern. Miraculously, in the US, the virus is not following that pattern, at least according to our “news sources.” I don’t believe the news sources. It used to be – at least, four years ago – that you would get the news on the major networks served with bias sauce. You could usually find your way to the facts under the bias. But that has changed. Similarly, the CDC, the FDA, none of these agencies have ever had what you might call a spotless reputation. I think the CDC is still trying to determine if Lyme Disease is real. They said they’d let us know. We don’t know how many Americans have died of COVID19 because testing is not required and even if it were, who’s to tell us they’re not simply lying to us? In the same way, there are so many accounts now of people who didn’t even get tested and yet got reports back that they had tested positive. We simply cannot depend on the news media or government organizations to tell us the truth. The thing with Kayleigh, I can’t even find it in myself to be outraged anymore. This is what we expect from CNN and ABC and NBC. There will never be consequences and thus, things will never change. I appreciate your making it a subject of your blog.

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