Oklahoma Teens Charged With Terrorism For Breaking Windows During Protests

download-9We have previously discussed my reservations about the use of federal charges of arson and other crimes to prosecute individuals accused of rioting offenses in the recent protests. The concern was the federalization of local offenses.  Now, however, I have concerns about state charges out of Oklahoma.  Teenagers are facing terrorism charges after allegedly helping to break in the windows of an Oklahoma City bail bonds business in late May. I have long raised concerns about the broadening of terrorism laws and this is an example of why I still hold such concerns. As the Justice Department explores possible terrorism charges, the Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater appears to be adopting an exceptionally broad interpretation of that crime. Among those charged was Malachai Davis, 18, who was shown breaking the window of the CJ Bail Bond building using what appeared to be brass knuckles.  That charge has a tragic irony because, according to his attorney, Davis’ father died in the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in 2001.

Haley Lin Crawford and Sydney Lunch, who both just turned 18, were charged with acting with a large crowd to unlawfully break the windows of CJ’s Bail Bonds in Oklahoma City on May 30, according to the Oklahoman. They were identified using Facebook Live video streamed by other demonstrators as well as the Crimestoppers bulletin below.

At least three others had been charged with terrorism after the May 30 incident.

Prater declared last month that those who incite violence in the streets are “criminals” and “[w]hen you employ these tactics for a political purpose, you are a terrorist.”  He denounced Black Lives Matter protestors of later trying to intimidate him and law enforcement to drop the charges.  Protesters held a sit in at his office.

I tend to agree with the Black Lives Matter position, contained in a petition on Change.org, that it is overreach “[t]o conflate acts of vandalism against property with acts of terrorist violence against human beings.” The Oklahoma Democratic Party has also spoken out against the charges.

By charging such property damage as terrorism, the prosecutor radically increased the potential sentence as well as the required bond.

What is curious is that others were charged with rioting (and at least one with assault on an officer) but Prater charged these individuals with terrorism. I do not see the dividing line between the cases.

Two other cases come closer to the cases we discussed earlier as possible federal terrorism cases linked to the burning of police vehicles.

Isael Antonio Ortiz, 21, is accused of burning an Oklahoma County sheriff’s van and attempting to burn a bail bonds business with others. Eric Christopher Ruffin, 26, was accused of encouraging the “wanton destruction” on Facebook Live. He is quoted from the Facebook video as saying every single one of those that kill Black people need to die and “that’s what happens when you got numbers outside.”

download-8This is Ruffin’s second charge. He was accused on May 30th of terrorism in relation to the burning of the van.  He was then charged in the bail bonds fire.  He went on Facebook Live before turning himself in to declare

“I’m innocent. You dig what I’m saying?We’ve got mounds and mounds of evidence. I didn’t burn nothing. I didn’t set nothing on fire. I didn’t tell nobody to do none of that s—. You dig what I’m saying? And … they’re doing this because, I feel as if … they want a fall person right now. … And it’s wrong. It’s wrong what they’re trying to do to me.”

He was also featured in this interview:

Ruffin’s threat (if tied to criminal acts) comes closest to conventional terrorism charge.  I still have some reservations, particularly with the Ortiz case, in treating wanton destruction as terrorism.  We have seen thousands of such cases during protests and they have not been treated as terroristic acts.  I believe that such charges would be reserved for the narrow category of criminals who use violent to terrorize communities or countries. Ruffin admittedly raises a viable issue, but we need to know more about the context and intent behind that statement.  I am still concerned about the use of the charge even with Ruffin even with his reckless and threatening words.

There are very serious charges that can be brought against all of these defendants, including the rioting charges levied against at least six other individuals.  I do not see why it is necessary to treat this as terrorism.  Terrorism is an offense that is quickly loosening its meaning and cohesion as a criminal charge as prosecutors reframe vandalism, property damage, and rioting as terrorism.  It seems as misplaced as calling the 9/11 attacks as a property damage offense.  The damage in Oklahoma was done in the rage of a protests following the death of George Floyd. That is no defense but the intent was not to terrorize. If it could be construed as terroristic, then any wanton property damage would become terrorism.

As I have said before, I tend to view these cases through the eyes of criminal defense attorney. However, I cannot see the logic and necessity of framing these crimes as terroristic acts.

176 thoughts on “Oklahoma Teens Charged With Terrorism For Breaking Windows During Protests”

  1. It is really awful. I think that all the shame must be on their parents. They didn’t pay many attention to their kids. So, here we go. I think that you can forecast what is going to be with your children if you have an access to their smartphone. I found this website https://bestparentalcontrolapps.com/spy-on-iphone-text-messages/ and installed some apps from there. It is really necessary today cause many children could be quite unstable.

  2. Meanwhile, a recent peer reviewed study released by the CDC found:

    Specifically, the results showed that children in middle and high school with coronavirus were most likely to transmit the disease. Nearly 19 percent of the contacts who shared a home with sick patients in that age group also contracted COVID. Children younger than 10 years old were the least likely to spread the disease (about five percent of their contacts got sick).

    The second-most likely age group to spread the coronavirus in their household were 70 to 79 year olds, who saw 18 percent of their household contacts become infected. In third were 60 to 69 year olds with 17 percent.

  3. These crimes are the definition of terrorism. Open up Webster’s and read. Its plain and simple. The charges are just.

  4. But the intent IS to terrorize the population in an attempt to scare everyone into giving the protesters what they want. Getting up on Facebook Live and calling for people’s deaths during a mob action is nothing less than inciting said terror. And its only property? You speak like someone who has never put their lifeblood into a business – it may just be property to you but its very definitely violence against that business owner who likely sunk in savings and years into their businesses. The acts of violence against the business owners are blatant attempts at letting other business owners know they either join the ranks or see their businesses go up in flames. That’s terroristic intimidation if I have ever heard it.

    The backers and funders of the violence and destruction have said point blank their goal is the destruction of the US as we know it. How is that any different than the actions of islamic terrorists who want to destroy America and have used violence to do so? Unfortunately, many of these people arrested are simply useful tools to that grander goal and I agree that terrorism charges should not be used against them when other charges will be easier to win and still put them away for a while. However, at what point DO acts of intimidation and destruction and violence which goal is to destroy US society rise to the level of terrorism in your book?

    1. George – the Mayor of Portland has tweeted that he has heard a rumor that the Feds are going to use live ammo tonight. Supposedly Mayor Wheeler meets with the rioters at 9 PM. Riots start at midniight.

      1. Paul,

        Here are three of Wheeler’s tweets that address the issue of live ammunition.

        Key tweet:

        ” I have spoken with the/U.S.Attorney of Oregon, Billy Williams, who assures me that the federal government has no plans to use live ammunition on Portlanders tonight,and that such an order would be unlawful. Nevertheless, I am sharing this information publicly out of an abundance of caution. If you plan to demonstrate tonight, please be safe.”

        All three tweets:


        “Mayor Ted Wheeler
        This afternoon I was made aware of concerns within the community that federal agents may be authorized to use live ammunition on demonstrators this evening.

        Mayor Ted Wheeler
        Given the deployment of federal agents to other American cities and the clear escalation of the federal government, this information was alarming. I have spoken with the/U.S.Attorney of Oregon, Billy Williams,

        Mayor Ted Wheeler

        who assures me that the federal government has no plans to use live ammunition on Portlanders tonight,and that such an order would be unlawful. Nevertheless, I am sharing this information publicly out of an abundance of caution. If you plan to demonstrate tonight, please be safe.

        9:16 PM · Jul 22, 2020·Twitter Web App”

  5. Jonathan Turley: “As I have said before, I tend to view these cases through the eyes of criminal defense attorney. However, I cannot see the logic and necessity of framing these crimes as terroristic acts.”


    1. Anonymous – normally I would agree, however I have been following Andy Ngo and he posted the reading list for Antifa, which includes a book/pamphlet entitled “Why We Break Windows”

      1. “How a Right-Wing Troll Managed to Manipulate the Mainstream Media”

        “When a milkshake to the face brought the spotlight on Andy Ngo, politicians and talking heads on both sides were happy to take on his cause: demonizing antifa”


        Paul – I’m sorry for what happened to Ngo, but I’m not a fan. I’ll take a look at the book/pamphlet, if I can find it.

        1. A milkshake to the face? I think you want to look up what that milkshake actually was and the images of the man’s face after the playful taps he received from Antifa. Are you saying that a man filming the mayhem and acting no different than most other journalists out there deserves what he got? You are then basically saying it should be open season on anyone who is trying to record what they see. Do you feel that the attacks on conservatives in Denver the other night were acceptable? If that is the case, we are going down a very dark road.

  6. https://hotair.com/archives/john-s-2/2020/07/22/patricia-mccloskeys-gun-didnt-work-police-received-prosecutors-ordered-reassembled-declared-lethal/

    Patricia McCloskey’s Gun Didn’t Work So A Prosecutor Ordered It Reassembled And Then Declared It Lethal. Manipulating and altering evidence in order to target and prosecute an innocent citizen. This is what Democrat officials do with the powerful position of public trust they hold. They don’t prosecute the lawbreaking “rioters” who break into private property; no, they go after law abiding citizens because Politics.

    Anyone who votes to give Democrats MORE power in this next election is literally INSANE.

  7. Seth Warner is a terrorist. The paid troll blithely copies/pastes the lying hit pieces published by the authoritarian yellow press. In a previous gig, Seth Warneris shown here in a heavy beard and tan colored dress screaming, howling, shouting unintelligible phrases.

    1. hahaha

      I lost that gig a long time ago, but thanks for the good memories.

      I no longer have the fake beard but do enjoy showing off my glam hair. it is really popular with all of the BBC in West Hollywood. When I’m not doing nails I’m taking dik on the DL and oh….feelz so gudz


        This is NOT Seth Warner.

        This is the same political goon known as Rhodes, MoFo and Gray Anonymous and countless goofy names that continue to multiply.


      Readers wonder how long the blog will be hostage to the goon who posted this.

        1. Olly, you’re okay with having some lunatic dominate this blog with countless names??

          You believe ‘thinkers’ appreciate having an in-house political goon to harass liberal commentators??

          Last Friday I found Turley’s comment thread heavily padded with comments that could be from rightwing militia types. You can see my report on “Res Ipsa Hits 43,000,000”, Turley’s column posted Saturday. I would bet those comments are largely the work of either one individual or a small group.

          I can’t understand why regulars like you would link this goon to ‘thinkers’. The comments this goon has logged are shockingly mindless.

          1. Thinkers don’t waste their time with that nonsense. Your acknowledging their posts simply assures you will get more of them, not less. This is not that difficult for anyone with a functioning left-half of their brain.

            1. Olly, the goon is present whether I acknowledge him or not. It’s not like ignoring the goon will make him fade away. As you can see from report, said goon has been responsible for a disproportionate number of comments. Therefore this entire blog has been compromised to a very large extent. Professor Turley, more than me, is the victim of this goon. But all the regulars are victims in the sense that this goon keep ‘blowing up’ each thread.

              1. But all the regulars are victims in the sense that this goon keep ‘blowing up’ each thread.

                You’re only a victim if you choose to be a victim. You’re giving them power over you. It’s understandable if you were 8 years old and haven’t learned that lesson yet. But I assume you’re an adult and you should have learned this lesson ages ago. Damn!

                1. Olly, you’re just a sour apple who knows Trump is going down.

                  But I’ll tell you what, Olly. I’ll start using bogus handles to attack every comment you make. And I’ll keep smearing you with lies. You won’t mind of course. Because ‘only 8 year olds let that upset them’.

                2. “You’re only a victim if you choose to be a victim.”

                  Not always/strictly true.

                  That said, Seth would do well to ignore…, but he apparently can’t and/or won’t…

                  1. He has a million choices available to him, up to and including leaving the Turley blog. At this point, he might as well change his user ID to Kick Me.

                  2. There’s a saying about advice:

                    “…the wise don’t need it…and fools won’t heed it.”

                    So just keep on doing what you’re doing, Seth, and see how it works out for you.

                    It’s Jonathan Turley’s blog and if he’s okay with the comments, then I guess you’ll have to live with them. And we’ll have to live with your ridiculous and over-the-top replies.

  8. Trump And GOP Governors At War With Cities

    New offensives against major cities from President Donald Trump and GOP governors are pushing at the central geographic fault line between the Republican and Democratic coalitions.

    On one front, Trump is taking his confrontational approach toward big cities to an ominous new level by deploying federal law-enforcement officials to Portland and potentially other locales over the objection of local officials.

    On the other, Republican governors, especially but not exclusively across the Sun Belt, have repeatedly blocked mostly Democratic local leaders from locking down their communities, despite exploding caseloads in cities from Atlanta to Phoenix. These orders represent a new crest in a decade-long wave of actions by Republican state officials to preempt decisions made by local Democratic governments.

    “We haven’t had issues that are so immediately pressing and so much involving public health and safety,” says Richard Briffault, a Columbia University law professor who has studied state preemption of municipal actions. While states moving to block cities from raising the minimum wage or declaring themselves an immigration sanctuary “are important issues … in the sense that these are pressing, in-the-moment decisions that are directly affecting the health and welfare of a lot of people, this is unique,” he told me.

    Edited from: “Trump Is Determined To Split The Country In Two”

    The Atlantic, 7/22/20

    1. Actually Democrat “lead” major metros are in a state of anarchy or insurrection against their own laws,

      or in the case of Portland, besieging federal courthouse, surrounding it, ripping down barriers and trying to break glass windows and doors, in overt acts of war against the United States.

      newspapers and politicians who are trying to make this into a Maidan style coup against Trump should stop the sedition Anarchy will only lead to worse of everything.

      You are supporting here with this Wapoo editorial garbage, a planned destabilization campaign against the lawful President Trump. In other words, Wapoo is leading an incipient civil war

      There will be two sides to that. figure out which side is for law and order if you value it. use your eyes

      1. Trump is looking for a campaign angle. He doesn’t GAF about security in Portland or any other place. You’re supposed to be states rights guys, but you’re ready for the unidentified muscle if he blows the whistle.

        1. “He doesn’t GAF about security in Portland or any other place.”

          Are you on his campaign staff?

          States rights don’t apply to Federal buildings. Is that too difficult for you to comprehend?

          I think you’ve got severe hypoxia due to always wearing a mask.

          1. As noted in JT’s column Trump is saying he’s going to send federal forces to cities like Chicago where federal buildings are not being attacked.

            1. Book, Rhodes is the same goon who’s been holding this blog hostage. He’s also gray anonomous.

        2. I don’t care about states rights anymore. That’s all theoretical BS to you guys, you toss it overboard whenever you like. So I wont be bound by it either

          I declare myself completely pragmatic from now on. Count me out from the ideologies.

          Because, as now I have zero ideological commitments, I can think clearly. But who cares about me, a nobody.

          But you will find more and more rivals of significance in the US who are likewise not encumbered, anymore.

            1. PS As noted, you are not threatened by any of this, nor is your tribe. You all live miles from the south side and near west side and probably never go to a park downtown. But if you did, I doubt the white protesters or rioters – which ever it was that day – would give you a 2nd look anyway.

              1. trust me i am the grey man, nobody notices me at all

                politics is always tribal, but there are networks of tribes. in life i am in nexus of many favorable positions, lucky for me, still am

                i feel bad for regular citizens less fortunate than myself who can’t distance themselves from the major metro chaos.

    2. “Republican governors, especially but not exclusively across the Sun Belt, have repeatedly blocked mostly Democratic local leaders from locking down their communities”

      Seth, you do understand that a Governor’s authority supersedes the authority of “local leaders”?

      And as JT covered yesterday regarding Presidential authority:

      “But how about the recent claims that the President is about to take over policing from cities like Chicago? The answer is that such a federal deployment without a request from the governors would be unwise but would be legal.”

      So you’re just whining like a volunteer bathroom monitor who got caught after school, and is about to get a well deserved beatdown.

      You’re always whining, Seth.

      1. Governors’ authority does not supersede local authorities unless they are county officers – which are legally under the state – or specifically called out. Supposed “small government” Republicans are more and more trying to write legislation usurping the authority of cities because in the bigger ones, those authorities are often blue. So much for that “principle”.

        1. Supposed “small government” Republicans…

          You apparently are unaware that that is a tell that you have absolutely no idea what is meant by limited government.

          1. the only principle Democrats have had is win

            don’t be surprised when the other guys get the same idea

            then it will get interesting

            1. don’t be surprised when the other guys get the same idea

              This is the path we’re on and it never ends well for the security of rights. This passage from Bastiat describes where we are today:

              Men naturally rebel against the injustice of which they are victims. Thus, when plunder is organized by law for the profit of those who make the law, all the plundered classes try somehow to enter — by peaceful or revolutionary means — into the making of laws. According to their degree of enlightenment, these plundered classes may propose one of two entirely different purposes when they attempt to attain political power: Either they may wish to stop lawful plunder, or they may wish to share in it.

              Woe to the nation when this latter purpose prevails among the mass victims of lawful plunder when they, in turn, seize the power to make laws!

  9. Trump’s Response To Protests Echoes Syria

    Some presidents, when they get into trouble before an election, try to “wag the dog” by starting a war abroad. Donald Trump seems ready to wag the dog by starting a war at home. Be afraid — he just might get his wish.

    How did we get here? Well, when historians summarize the Trump team’s approach to dealing with the coronavirus, it will take only a few paragraphs:

    “They talked as if they were locking down like China. They acted as if they were going for herd immunity like Sweden. They prepared for neither. And they claimed to be superior to both. In the end, they got the worst of all worlds — uncontrolled viral spread and an unemployment catastrophe.

    “And then the story turned really dark.

    “As the virus spread, and businesses had to shut down again and schools and universities were paralyzed as to whether to open or stay closed in the fall, Trump’s poll numbers nose-dived. Joe Biden opened up a 15-point lead in a national head-to-head survey.

    “So, in a desperate effort to salvage his campaign, Trump turned to the Middle East Dictator’s Official Handbook and found just what he was looking for, the chapter titled, ‘What to Do When Your People Turn Against You?’

    “Answer: Turn them against each other and then present yourself as the only source of law and order.”

    America blessedly is not Syria, yet, but Trump is adopting the same broad approach that Bashar al-Assad did back in 2011, when peaceful protests broke out in the southern Syrian town of Dara’a, calling for democratic reforms; the protests then spread throughout the country.

    Had al-Assad responded with even the mildest offer of more participatory politics, he would have been hailed as a savior by a majority of Syrians. One of their main chants during the demonstrations was, “Silmiya, silmiya” (“Peaceful, peaceful”).

    But al-Assad did not want to share power, and so he made sure that the protests were not peaceful. He had his soldiers open fire on and arrest nonviolent demonstrators, many of them Sunni Muslims. Over time, the peaceful, secular elements of the Syrian democracy movement were sidelined, as hardened Islamists began to spearhead the fight against al-Assad. In the process, the uprising was transformed into a naked, rule-or-die sectarian civil war between al-Assad’s Alawite Shiite forces and various Sunni jihadist groups.

    Al-Assad got exactly what he wanted — not a war between his dictatorship and his people peacefully asking to have their voices heard, but a war with Islamic radicals in which he could play the law-and-order president, backed by Russia and Iran. In the end, his country was destroyed and hundreds of thousands of Syrians were killed or forced to flee. But al-Assad stayed in power. Today, he’s the top dog on a pile of rubble.

    Edited from: “Trump’s Wag The Dog War” by Thomas Friedman

    Today’s New York Times

    1. “when historians summarize the Trump team’s approach to dealing with the coronavirus, it will take only a few paragraphs:”

      These will not be good or thoughtful historians. But then they will presumably have been educated in a history department in an American University, which tend to be infested with lazy Stalinist ideologues.

    2. Very dubious source there, the CIA/NYT and its imperial spokesman Tom Friedman. So, you’re against Trump, but FOR regime change in the Middle East. That’s the core of the anti-Trump faction in a nutshell. You don’t give a rat’s ass about social justice. You’re simply using the rightly outraged Blacks and confused white kids as cannon-fodder. If and when the CIA Dems retake the White House (and that’s a very big “if”), you’ll throw them under the bus in the twinkling of an eye and get on with the business of trying, unsuccessfully, to bring the rest of the world under US-led global capitalism, no matter how many millions have to die for it. You are the real fascist.

        1. Let it go, Seth. Want to stop a certain behavior? Ignore it. Your responses roll back on you, unfortunately. That said, reasonable people see and understand what’s going on…

          1. Anonymous, the goon is present whether we acknowledge him or not. Every day this goon keeps padding the comment count with endless, goofy sounding puppets that compromise the blog’s integrity.

            And if you’re ‘not’ the goon, find another handle. Because the goon keeps using a gray anonymous.

            1. I’m not ‘the goon.’ And I’m not going to find another handle.

              She or he is an ass. Ya gotta let it go.

              As far as the ‘blog’s integrity’, that’s on Jonathan Turley.

              Scroll past the nonsense.

  10. Portland Crackdown Headed By Expired ‘Acting’ Secretary Of Homeland Security

    Tom Ridge, who served as the first Homeland Security secretary under George W. Bush, said Tuesday that DHS “was not established to be the president’s personal militia,” and added, “It would be a cold day in hell before I would consent to a unilateral, uninvited intervention into one of my cities.”

    What’s also problematic here — and perhaps even illegal — is the man calling the shots. This controversial effort is being spearheaded not by a duly confirmed DHS secretary, but by acting secretary Chad Wolf, whose long-running service in that role runs afoul of the law, according to experts.

    Trump has made use of acting Cabinet officials in ways with no apparent precedent. As I wrote back in February, by that point he had had acting officials in Cabinet-level jobs for more than 2,700 combined days across 22 jobs — about 1 out of every 9 total days. That compared to about 1 out of every 29 for President Barack Obama. (“I like ‘acting’ because I can move so quickly,” he told CBS’s “Face The Nation” last year, adding, “It gives me more flexibility.”)

    And Trump exploited acting officials at DHS like nowhere else. The agency has been run by an acting secretary — first Kevin McAleenan and now Wolf — for the past 469 days. That’s equal to more than 15 months and nearly 37 percent of his entire presidency. In that entire time, Trump has failed to even nominate a permanent DHS secretary for the Senate’s consideration.

    In other words, the man running this controversial effort has not been signed off on for his current role (Wolf was confirmed to be an undersecretary at DHS). The lack of confirmation for his current position is a problem for two reasons.

    One is that the Federal Vacancies Reform Act only allows acting officials to serve for 210 days after a vacancy is declared or a new permanent head is nominated and rejected. Wolf has served 251 days. Because a new nomination hasn’t been announced, much less rejected, the clock has never reset.

    And University of Michigan law Prof. Nina Mendelson, an expert on federal vacancies, says that 210-day window was violated even before Wolf was appointed, given that McAleenan served more than 210 days himself as acting secretary.

    “The language of the Federal Vacancies Reform Act is very clear,” Mendelson said. “It’s 210 days, beginning on the date the vacancy occurs, so an acting secretary cannot serve legally past that time.”

    Edited From: “Trump’s Portland Crackdown Is Controversial. The Man Spearheading It Might Be Doing So Illegally”

    Today’s Washington Post

    1. Ridge is full of it. There are feds roaming the streets of every major city in the form of ATF, collaring people left and right for gun crimes, and DEA, for drugs, and FBI.

      then the marshalls. the marshalls go where they want same way.

      these guys were deputized to assist in protecting federal property, in case you missed it, the freaks in Portland are “protesting” outside the federal building and have physically attacked the deputies. they are literally attempting to besiege the courthouse which is already boarded up because of attacks and besmirched with grafitti


      the news media does not show this because they are liars and co-conspirators in this destabilization campaign against law, order, and America’s lawful government

      1. Kurtz, the article correctly points out the Chad Wolf’s ‘Acting’ appointment has expired. Every protester arrested in Portland could conceivably challenge their arrest on grounds that Homeland Security was headed by an expired appointee.

        1. they can say whatever they like. they are besieging and assaulting federal courthouse which in any other time in American history would get one SHOT TO DEATH by armed federal marshalls. if i had to pick the one building in any city I would be most afraid to attack it would be the federal courthouse

          this is insanity and you are apologizing for it.


          the marshalls should shoot these rioters and restore order now. why are they derelict in protecting federal law and order and property and the lives of the workers inside?

          perhaps the next thing will be rioting in jails. you guys have no idea what kind of genie you’ve conjured out of the bottle

          1. Kurtz is the same guy who has said prosecutors have too much power and the FBI is corrupt, but now he wants summary executions on the spot and an end to citizen’s rights to protest. Take a pill. Yes, we’d all like to see the rock throwers in cuffs – the Chicago Police Chief said they arrested 12 at the Grant Park riot – but no, this is not a civil war and if you think it is, you are a snowflake, too precious to make it through real strife. Hell, I lived through the late 1960s with scores of dead people on the streets of both races .and that was a picnic compared to Weimar Germany

            1. well, Democrats green lighted anarchy, so law and order is out the door

              I prefer tyranny to anarchy. Anarchy is more dangerous than tyranny,. contrary to what a lot of libertarians think
              but they misunderstand a lot of things.
              anarchy green lighted by government factions, such as Mao Green lighted the Red Guards during Cultural Revolution, very very dangerous

              anarchy is even more dangerous than civil war, although, it is usually just a preface to it

    2. in this clip, the ANTIFA are employing the “tortoise shell” formation that the Romans used to use, in their felonious assault on the federal courthouse in Portland, as they dash forward hurling rocks at the federal building’s glass doors and windows. how can this be tolerated?

      this is inconceivable that it is happening and the national media is HUSHING IT UP and scolding the President of the United States

      I tell you what is fully licit, moral, and justified now. ATTACKING OFFICES OF THE WASHINGTON POST

      all of their little news-boxes should be pillaged and destroyed. because they are enemies of the people. The lying fake news must pay for its role in instigating this insurrection!

      however, they hardly have any such little newspaper dispensers anywhere anymore, because they don’t sell many newspapers anymore, nobody likes them

      PS the anarchists assaulting the federal courthouse should be shot., all of them, killed, today.


      1. “PS the anarchists assaulting the federal courthouse should be shot., all of them, killed, today.”

        You might want to rethink that, Kurtz.

  11. Terrorism is a catch all charge that can be brought at the discretion of the state to beef up the charge. Destruction of property for the kids breaking windows should be enough. The mutt torching a car or building should get the maximum and be nailed to the wall. Blanketing all these diverse actions/crimes with an over all terrorism charge is the same as sicking the dogs on the crowds and turning on the fire hoses. The authorities should catch the bad guys and nail them to the cross, while allowing the protesters to protest. The strongest argument the police can make is to differentiate between the scumbags out torching and destroying and the protesters marching around with signs. Somewhere here there must be leadership.

    1. Here are some peaceful protesters looting a gun store in Fayetteville North Carolina


      Notice the lack of diversity– perhaps 50 looters, nearly all African Americans it seems. where were the pasty faced geeks of ANTIFA when this one got sprung?

      the only white guy I saw stealing actually grabbed an american flag around 1:03. i found that hilarious. yes, he was the only one who stole a flag. the rest went for guns and sneakers

      1. I post an unbiased statement about those who are arsonists, looters, and property destroyers getting treated like criminals and not protesters and those peacefully protesting being allowed to protest peacefully, and you respond like a racist White Supremacist. You continually out yourself.

        1. gee isaac guess what. i dont care what you think of me.

          did you like the video of all those peaceful black protesters looting guns?

          see that is why us law abiding white Americans with clean records and jobs want to have the right to own guns. simple proof., you get it or you dont

          1. You cared enough to respond. So, I’ll keep saying; you come across like a bushwhacker, selecting excerpts that back your racist position. Your sort should be the last to be allowed anywhere near guns.

                1. issac – being armed to protect your property is part of the Constitution. I am also armed.

  12. I have my doubts that Prof. Turley has a clue what “terrorism” really is. By definition, it’s an act that is designed to spread terror. There doesn’t have to be a bomb or firearm, any act that causes people to fear is terrorism, and it’s as an effective weapon as nuclear bombs.

  13. “my reservations about the use of federal charges of arson and other crimes to prosecute individuals accused of rioting offenses in the recent protests. The concern was the federalization of local offenses.”
    All I can say JT is that you will think differently after ‘they come for you’ – as they surely will!
    Education is NOT indoctrination. Other days, other times.

    1. All I can say JT is that you will think differently after ‘they come for you’ – as they surely will!

      Absolutely! That’s why on the Michigan teacher thread I asked him what stand he is taking at GWU. Turley has a tendency to decry the loss of freedoms by packaging it in legal theory, but I have yet to see him say what he’s actively doing to confront the abuses. He seems to function more like a legal drone, flying over the melee and launching inert legal missiles. Things are getting worse, not better.

  14. I tend to agree with the Black Lives Matter position,…that it is overreach “[t]o conflate acts of vandalism against property with acts of terrorist violence against human beings.”

    Who are you and what did you do with Turley? The first clue that you’ve abandoned reason is agreeing with BLM…on anything. What we’re witnessing is not a one-off event where a couple of juvenile delinquents decided to vandalize property. This is a complete breakdown of civil society by anarchists intent on destroying the systems necessary for safety and security of our citizens. The reason you don’t have the aspect of terrorist violence against human beings in this story is because the business owners were wise enough to not try to stop them. You’ve no doubt seen what happens when these terrorists are confronted. This anarchy we’re seeing is terrorism and it will only get worse if those that think like you treat it as garden-variety vandalism. And the mayors and governors willfully enabling this should be charged as well.

    1. we are entering civil war territory. perhaps one day we will look back and see that it was already underway.
      by embracing riot and arson and apologizing for disorder and chaos, cities have anointed BLM rioters as the deputies. This means war. They want our blood.
      the law abiding citizens of all races stuck in major metros are now kidnapped by hoodlums. But many major metros support the BLM faction. It is too hard for us to sort this out. We need to remove ourselves from the major metros and those who remain need to be presumed to be hostiles. That is where this is headed.

      Because whatever happens in the election, this is bound to happen again.
      Rember Ferguson? Obama, a black Democrat president, but BLM lit that part of ST Louis on Fire to fight racism
      That was 2015. Now it happens in so many different places all at once. This means they are an INSURGENCY that will need to be treated like one.

      That is up to the officials. F or us on the ground, the civilians, we must realize: a big sort has to happen. those orderly, decent, and productive citizens who can support themselves, who do not hate whites, and who want law and order, must exit the major metros now en masse. There is some evidence that this is happening.

      from the countryside, from our exurban redoubts around the country, we will have the upper hand.
      the vast land of flyover, is most of the nation’s geography, all its agricultural land and water supply, in short, everything that really matters for sustainable social existence.
      From this position of power, we can reorganize. Then the war actually starts, when we start hitting back.

      In this civil war, the plan of victory is simple. Encircle the cancers that the major metros have become, allow the remaining decent civilian population to flee before the shooting commences, and then wipe out the anarchist cancer that has infested our nation. Ghengis Khan style victory will be necessary.

      this is the plan. either back down from this chaos, nutjobs, or this WILL happen. I only predict. I do not threaten. I command no man. I am a nobody and I would never violate the law and havent had so much as a speeding ticket conviction in over a decade. I am totally peaceful. But others are not. We can understand what they will do to win. .

      if you think a big nation like this can be ruled by a Democrat party one state tyranny that has its base in about 30 major metros mostly on the coasts, that is a pipe dream

      and it will eventually vanish up in smoke, literally.

      by the way, there is a historical blueprint for a civil war lead in a large nation from the countryside. Republicans need to study not the “Founding Fathers” who were united in dislike of King George overseas. We must look to a more contemporary conflict in the 20th century: It is the Chinese civil war won by Mao. Yes that Mao. We, meaning decent law abiding people, on the threshhold of this conflict, should study Mao’s organization of the civil war against the comprador KMT and how he won. Sorry to say this but we are going to have to start by discarding the tired old bromides of the Enlightenment that are holding us back. Take those mental chains off and then study, prepare, organize..

      1. We are not entering a civil war and no one wants your blood. Despite hyping on both sides, including yours, race relations in the US have never been better or more promising for the future, though admittedly starting at a very bad place. The protesters and rioters are a very small number of young people with nothing to do because it’s summer and the virus leaves few alternatives for work or fun. Your a smart guy. Quit the hype and drama. You’re not going into the streets and you know it.

        1. well 15 people shot in Chicago since I was conversing with Seth and Absurd about the city last night.

          anarchy is actually worse than civil war. civil war might be an improvement.


          in 2016 homicides in Chicago were eclipsing nations that were or are in an open state of civil war inside the last decade.
          in 2020 the homicides are breaking records far beyond 2016
          at what point is it civil war?

          I mean what do you call this riotous attack on the police friday in Grant Park that ended with 49 police injured? Is that civil war? or just anarchy. I guess when BLM starts using guns instead of sharpened pvc pipe spears, commercial grade fireworks, and frozen water bottles? Or will you have another word for it then, too?

          1. Gee, i forgot. Nowadays, civil war emerges from anarchy. Usually the anarchy is when a government collapses. Major metro governments are collapsing. The anarchy is there. Civil war certainly is a possibility. But the federal structure of our government is flexible, maybe it wont happen. I have no crystal ball.

            Theory of insurgency: can look it up in the books about modern day ones.

            Here is a good one by an Israeli military historian, from many years ago, but keen insights


          2. As you noted, the Chicago killings are mostly black on black gang BS. You are not the target and that is not civil war. In the late 60s and much of the 70s the riots featured much hostility to whites and you did not want to be white and get caught up in it. The protests and riots now are bi-racial or mostly white and they are not aimed at white people. Our kids get along pretty well, or at least a lot better than in the past and the fact is most white Americans – even Trumpers – and black Americans don’t hate people on the other side and want things to work out. Eventually they will and there is no reason for despair or for fanning the flames. Accept the reality that there has been progress and no reason to think it won’t continue, and that goes for both white and blacks.

            1. Wanna see lying in action?

              btb here: “fact is most white Americans – even Trumpers – and black Americans don’t hate people on the other side and want things to work out.”

              btb there: “The GOP is no longer the party of Lincoln – most of them now are Confederate sympathizers in their lily white party”


              Auchi wa wa!

              1. OK, so mespo has a point. There are some regular posters here who do hate black people and constantly bring it up, but this board is far right of the American people.and is full of right wing crackpots.

                Thanks for the hand mespo.

                1. Deep down Big Mess has the right intentions. He probably doesn’t know it but it’s true. Bahahahahaha

        2. BTB, it’s buttheads like you who deny the existence of the indoctrination through education by the colleges, as well as K-12. The teachers union are all for the destruction of America. They will be the first to suffer the consequences of being lying and going to fascism. A price will be paid. Ur just a bottom feeder of a septic tank.

      2. Sorry to say this but we are going to have to start by discarding the tired old bromides of the Enlightenment that are holding us back.

        You have it backwards. Read Kant’s What is Enlightenment and you’ll see how accurately he describes our current body politic. Thanks to our progressive education system, we’ve already abandoned the enlightenment philosophy. Keep in mind, the Enlightenment is what motivated us to a war. A re-enlightenment will help us see that what’s happening is well passed being light or transient causes and we’re deep into a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism,. I do agree this is a war that was cold, the Left is making it hot.

        1. Olly, the “left” you are hyping is a bunch of kids with nothing to do because it’s summer and the virus. Some are pandering because of the emotional impact of Floyd, but no one of importance or adult age and disposition favors riots.

          I get that Trump is selling what you are and it might be his last shot at winning, but it is not 1968 in any sense of that time. I was there. Not close, not even a wiff.

          1. but no one of importance or adult age and disposition favors riots.

            Then you are tacitly admitting the governors and mayors enabling these anarchists are functionally adolescents. Adults that don’t favor riots use whatever force is necessary to secure the rights of every citizen.

            1. Olly, the “governors and mayors enabling these anarchists” are absolutely blameworthy if they are and at least should be judged on their handling of their particular crises, but there is a difference between enabling and strategic holding back of force in the interests of less mayhem and respecting citizens rights of protest. Kurtz has been telling us how bad the Chicago Mayor is while posting about the protest turned riot (and planned that way by some participants but clearly not all or even most) in Grant Park. Watch the police video posted on this board and decide how you would have handled it. Then read the mayor’s comments in the news article I quoted below it. You think she was “enabling” that behavior? You think the police should have just waded in busting heads? There were kids there and many who most likery had no idea what was planned.

              Yes, judge the governors and mayors on how they handle these situations, but consider what they are dealing with, remember we have a right to protest, and consider whether violence yields less or more violence in these situations. Lastly, imagine the protesters are MAGA anti-virus close down protesters joined by Proud Boys and Charlottesville type alt right Nazis and consider if you might be reacting differently.

              1. remember we have a right to protest,

                We have the right to peacefully protest. When peaceful turns to violent, it is the duty of government to restore order with whatever commensurate force is necessary. Treating these anarchists like some kind of controlled burn is the antithesis of what these governors and mayors swore an oath to do. The reality is this country is in a drought of reason, with the media pumping rhetoric that’s giving us Santa Ana-like conditions and these governors, mayors ignorantly believe these bored children playing with matches simply will be contained. We are reaping what has been sown for decades.

                1. Olly, we agree that we do not have a right to protest with violence, and if as you think the violence grows and spreads because of managing it rather than attacking it, you’ll be right. So far the federal officers have made it worse. The mayor and government have a responsibility to all citizens to maintain safety as well as arrest criminals and the 2 goals don’t always align. Remember, some of the people in Portland – I don’t know the relative numbers – are still peaceful protesters, so the answer you seek is not easy. There are a group of suburban “moms” who are on the front lines of some of the protests recently in hopes of calming down the situation, as well as no doubt creating sympathy for the cause.

                  This is not easy.

                  1. Your peeps need to hire a Madison Avenue marketing firm and re-do your image. You don’t stand a chance in hellll against Americans. Just saying

                  2. the peaceful protesters are all breaking the mass gathering prohibitions whcih are in place in all these particular states due to COVID

                    show me if I am wrong about that, the specific edicts which allow these mass public gatherings

                    and they are spreading disease to say nothing of disorder, and the spike in cases reveals this. for which you blame Trump of course.

                    regular people are prohibited and bound by emergency covid restrictions, why not protesters?

                    because they are mob who deem themselves above the law. and you apologize for them

                    1. I DK about mass gathering rules in these locations, but if you do, post it. Where i live there is virtually no enforcement of rules on other things like masks in places of business and they are violated all the time – less so since everyone is now scared sh..less. I don’t think there is a rule about mass gatherings here.

          2. “Olly, the “left” you are hyping is a bunch of kids with nothing to do because it’s summer and the virus. Some are pandering because of the emotional impact of Floyd, but no one of importance or adult age and disposition favors riots.”

            What you may be seeing is the new generation of young people, conditioned throughout their K-12 experience, and culminating in four-year degrees based on post-modernist constructs. It’s a self-defeating philosophy that at once asks for treaties through intersectionality, but at the same time overrules this detente because, in the end, power is the ultimate tool. 1970s Peking street violence is where this is headed, since once the common enemy of the intersectionals is confronted, the only thing left is the grappling for power amongst the intersectional hierarchy. The Constitution may yet prevail, mainly due to it’s much more robust argument, but it will most likely take an entire generation and disintegration of life as we know it into some sort of menial, hand-to-mouth existence. I hope I’m wrong.

            1. They scare you Kurtz? You think this is a serious revolution? Yeah, kids. 50 of them throwing rocks. I’m fine if some of them get shot, but don’t hit the suburban moms mixed in who think they are protesting for the rights of others.

              1. oh, the news media is not showing the guys ripping down barricades, ripping protective plywood off glass doors and windows, and trying to breach the courthouse entryways. they are showing “moms” and you are buying it like a sucker

                maybe Tom Fittom and Andy Ngo are fabricating the videos I just posted>? is that what you think? because i posted the clips of the people assaulting the courthouse.

                i have always believed that if I or anybody else attacked a federal courthouse they would be shot dead by marshalls. I can only ask, what is going on.

                is this a mutiny?

                oh boy, i bet you would like that book. Maidan comes to America, Well, if that’s how it ends up, elections will never matter again. they will henceforth always be fake. because when the apparat do not like the result they can mutiny.

                1. Give me a f….g break! Please Kurtz, don’t faint. The bad men …. I mean bad boys will go away soon.

                  Hey, you told us the Chicago mayor was soft on the Grant Park riot. No, she wasn’t and she also said she’s not taking down the Columbus statue or renaming where it is.

                  1. Her police force is tougher than most and i think the police superintendent is a sincere public servant.
                    i have my doubts about lori lightfoot
                    but they too are allowing mass gatherings of BLM protesters that are explicitly unlawful under the state COVID guidelnes

                    it is a denial of equal protection for the black population or the black protest faction to be exempt from COVID regulations that bind the rest of us.

                  2. I am telling you in all seriousness, if somebody in a regular city tried to break a glass door entryway into a federal courthouse with a rock, they would be shot dead by federal marshalls as SOP and nobody would care.

                    why are these hooligans allowed to do this?

                    1. 1. They would not be shot dead. Yes, they’d be arrested.
                      2. Whether right or wrong, the Portland police are trying to manage the situation to minimize further damage and violence while allowing citizen protest, which is a 1st amendment right. Maybe you are right that they should use more force but you are definitely wrong in saying it should be indiscriminate. So far the federal officers have not successfully squelched the violence. The fact that the protests have gone on this long is BS in my opinion. An election is coming up and anyone who cares about civic improvement should be working on that, not hanging out on the street with their buds every night. I don’t know enough details to know whether local authorities have f…d up, by clearly we can say they have not succeeded.

                    2. Whether right or wrong, the Portland police are trying to manage the situation to minimize further damage


                    3. well, I am just telling you how regular federal marshalls think. if they are there standing by the metal detectors waving lawyers and citizens into the courthouse, and then a mob of guys comes up and throws rocks at the front door, the marshalls are drawing down and shooting in defense of their own lives and others.

                      it is perfectly legal to shoot someone throwing a stone at another person because when one is in fear of grave bodily harm or death, there is no legal obligation to use less than lethal force. this is textbook law and it applies to federal officers as much as it does to citizens. so yes i believe, not the moms you were posting pictures of, but the rioting black clad freaks trying to break into glass doors in the courthouse, should be shot on the spot and it would be entirely licit. i showed the clips of this and I dont need to keep posting them, this is ridiculous. it is not just moms in yellow shirts there. those are in one place and the freaks trying to breach the perimeter are in another place.

                      i guess the only qualification on that would be, that if nobody is in there, then there may not be a reasonable fear of grave bodily harm., right now it is possible the federal courthouse is mostly deserted but probably not entirely, there is probably an FBI office and a federal prosecutor’s office. as there are in most federal courthouses. so i very much doubt nobody is in the courthouse. this is preposterous.

                      as a person who has been coming and going from federal courthouses my entire lifetime including when i was a wee lad, i find this utterly amazing breakdown of law and order and civil authority. that any Democrat or American of any stripe are apologizing for this lawlessness is utterly shameful

                    4. I will also add that the Portland police are not in charge of federal courthouse security the US Marshalls are. And federal judges may command them. If the federal judges or magistrates there have failed to order the marshalls to repel the attackers then those specific judges or magistrates are are derelict cowards and deserve no respect from me or other Americans.

                      the federal judges and I have known more than a few, whom I do respect, would order a strong response that would establish a perimeter a sufficient distance around the courthouse to prevent the United States property and authority from being shamed by these anarchist scum. The failure of the local police would not be tolerated by them. In fact I have seen them set up barricades from time to time for various security reasons and there is nothing in law stopping the federal authorities from flat out taking land in the streets adjacent to the courthouse for their own defense. NOTHING in law prevents this. In case you forgot the federal government is the supreme authority in the United States

                      They also do not need to ask for permission to place more feds on the streets. FBI never does, DEA never does, ATF never does. They may have liason and deconflicting mechanisms with local police but they do NOT ask for permission.

                      If you believe they do then you have been watching too many movies. That is not reality. They have a good relationship with locals most times and places but they think they are supreme and they are.


                    5. “2. Whether right or wrong, the Portland police are trying to manage the situation to minimize further damage and violence while allowing citizen protest, which is a 1st amendment right.”

                      Apparently, there is no objectivity with you folks these days. Graffiti, murder, arson, assault have generally been labeled crimes in the past, I believe. Speech comes out of my mouth, or my pen, or typing fingers.

              2. I’m fine if some of them get shot, but don’t hit the suburban moms mixed in who think they are protesting for the rights of others.

                It’s time we brush up on what terrorism/terrorists look like.

                In summation, one can draw a general composite picture into which fit the great majority of those terrorists from the eighteen urban guerrilla groups examined here. To this point, they have been largely single males aged 22 to 24…who have some university education, if not a college degree. The female terrorists, except for the West German groups and an occasional leading figure in the JRA and PFLP, are preoccupied with support rather than operational roles….Whether having turned to terrorism as a university student or only later, most were provided an anarchist or Marxist world view, as well as recruited into terrorist operations while in the university.

          1. Did you accidentally hit post before finishing your point? I ask because that comment is not in dispute. At least by me.

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