Facebook Under Fire For Keeping Antifa Page While Eliminating Far-Right Groups

Facebook is under fire this week after it was discovered that the company has allowed Rose City Antifa, a violent group associated with riots for many years, to maintain a Facebook page despite the company’s controversial program to take down certain sites.  As will come as no surprise to many on this blog, I would not have the page taken down on free speech grounds. My greatest fear is not Antifa (which I have criticized for years) but the growing censorship of the Internet.  While I recently testified about Antifa, and specifically Rose City Antifa, as part of a violent anti-free speech movement, I have opposed declaring them terrorist organizations and believe that their speech should be protected. While Facebook is a private company not subject to the First Amendment’s limits, it should adhere to free speech values on the Internet.

RCA is arguably the oldest Antifa group in the United States and was founded in Portland.  In 2013, various groups that were part of The Anti-Racist Action Network (ARA), including RCA, formed a new coordinating organization referred to as the “Torch Network.” This lack of structure not only appealed to the anarchist elements in the movement but served the practical benefit of evading law enforcement and lawsuits. While some have attempted to hold such members accountable, like journalist Andy Ngo who sued RCA for assaulting him, such lawsuits struggle with finding witnesses and assets for an effective case.  

Under Facebook’s “Dangerous Individuals and Organizations policy” the company pledged to “address organizations and movements that have demonstrated significant risks to public safety.” It has removed a number of far right and far left groups.

We have previously discussed how governments and politicians have demanded greater and greater censorship of the Internet, which is the greatest vehicle of free speech ever developed.  The erosion of free speech on social media and the Internet includes calls from leading Democratic leaders for years to implement private censorship of political speech, a view supported by academics who have declared that “China was right” about censorship.  Recently, Democratic Nominee Joe Biden pushed for censoring statements by Trump and others opposing mail-in voting.

My views of free speech are well known.  RCA is an extremist group but it also engages in protected speech.  We need to criminally address its conduct, not its speech.  It is the difference between advocating violence and acting violently. If the site is actively arranging attacks or directing riotings, it is more than just speech. It generally does not do that. It calls for counter demonstrations on such sites but leaves the violent elements to local members.  Once you start censoring such sites for the actions of some members, it puts the Internet on a slippery slope of speech regulation.  Many organizations, including Black Lives Matter, have had violent followers but there are still important parts of a non-violent debate over issues like racial justice.

However, there is another reason why these pages should not be censored.  It is far better to have such groups operating openly where they can be monitored. We saw in Germany that suppressing neo-Nazi groups just forced them underground while doing little to deter their expansion.  It is better for law enforcement and others to have these groups more visible.  On Facebook, these groups can be challenged and their extreme views exposed.  When forced underground, the groups claim that they are victims of “fascists” and their hateful views grow unimpeded in radical echo-chambers.

Antifa is arguably the most successful anti-free speech movement in modern history. It has the direct or indirect support of some academics and many students. Indeed, the recent controversy over statements made by a Connecticut professor and a Rhode Island professor on the killing of a conservative counter protester reflects how such views are become more common.  Some of these individuals oppose the free speech protections that we afforded them, at least when extended to those with opposing views.  However, they are the price of true free speech.

222 thoughts on “Facebook Under Fire For Keeping Antifa Page While Eliminating Far-Right Groups”

  1. Yesterday, Trump said the following about Reinoehl being killed by U.S. Marshals: “This guy was a violent criminal, and the US Marshals killed him. And I will tell you something: that’s the way it has to be. There has to be retribution when you have crime like this.” He is lauding an extra-judicial killing. That is NOT “the way it has to be.” The way it’s supposed to be is that law enforcement arrests the person, and he’s tried in court.

    Michelle Goldberg (NYT): “Trump’s encouragement of extrajudicial killing comes after a whistleblower described DHS demands to ‘modify intelligence’ to paint antifa as a domestic terrorist threat. This is a systematic effort to put a group of Americans outside of the most basic legal protections.”

    Oregon Live: “Officers who first confronted Michael Forest Reinoehl outside an apartment complex in Washington last week yelled no warnings or commands before firing and killing the Oregon man wanted on a murder warrant in the death of a right-wing demonstrator in Portland, according to a witness [Nathaniel Dingess]. … Dingess said he never saw a handgun on Reinoehl or saw him reach for anything. Other witnesses told The Olympian the night of the shooting that Rienoehl had a gun. … Police have said Reinoehld was found with a handgun but have not said if he fired any shots at officers.”

    1. Trump makes another ill advised remark using the world retribution. Reinhold was attempted to be arrested and he did not cooperate and was armed and i take Marshalls at their word if they were in fear of their lives by him.

      Hence, the shooting of Reinhold was in self defense. he was a violent and dangerous reprobate who had already signaled his intention to kill again likewise in the Vice interview. The Marshalls were under no legal requirement to wait for Reinhold to draw his gun like in a Hollywood cowboy movie. That is fantasy and not how it works.

      1. Let the Marshals testify about it under oath.

        Regardless, Trump saying “the US Marshals killed him. And I will tell you something: that’s the way it has to be. There has to be retribution when you have crime like this” is horrifyingly wrong. That’s *not* the way it has to be. Not only does there not have to be extrajudicial retribution, there is not supposed to be extrajudicial retribution. If they shot him in self-defense, that’s distinct from killing him in retribution. Any patriotic American should condemn this kind of language.

    2. CTDHD you are distorting what was said. Retribution is punishment not necessarily killing a person.

      It also wasn’t and extra-judicial killing. He wasn’t assassinated. The police shot back at a man who would have killed them if he could.

      You need to get a bit of common sense.

  2. The name “Facebook” is reference to the wrong end of the human body from which it’s customers represent. It is “Buttbook”. Or, in piglatin term: uttBaybook.

    1. Facebook was created the day DARPA shut down LifeLog. But of course, it is all just a sheer coincidence and Zuckie isn’t a stooge, but a master mind genius. Okay, sure, bahahaha 🤡

      And they had nothing to do with each other. Cant emphasize this enough. /sarc

      If you repeat something enough, ppl will start believing it.

  3. I’ve said it before, but here it is again:
    fFacebook is a useless product. Who (should) care what bozos around the world are thinking?
    Ditto for Twitter, Instagram, …

    ‘Nuff Said

    1. If you consider your life has a value to yourself/family interest & limited time is at a premium then one should consider that with so much other non-productive crap to waste your time on the internet with then why in the hell would anyone even consider going on facebook, twitter, etc?

      Anyway, I’ve got to go waste another hour of my life somewhere on the intertube. LOL:) IBB

    1. Any word on the these 2 thugs trying to drown a dog in Louisiana. I BET THE WOULDNT LIKE IT IF THEY WERE DROWN. 🤬🤬🤬

  4. Funny the media and Attorney General didn’t rush to report this to the public before cities began burning down.

    George Floyd swallowed a lot of drugs as he was being arrested.


    Nobody ever dies from swallowing a lot of drugs, do they?

    Not if there are several police officers nearby to charge with murder for political points.

  5. SMH at the irony of Graham’s tweet:

    Lindsey Graham a few hours ago:
    “It’s been 72 hours since I released 11 years of state and federal tax returns and challenged @HarrisonJaime to do the same. Crickets. What is he hiding?”

    Trump is the first president in decades not to release his federal tax returns. To quote Graham, “What is he hiding?”

    1. If it is an issue with you, then dont vote for him. If it is an issue with any candidate that does not release income tax info, then don’t vote for them. for others, this is not an issue and they will vote or not vote for the person for other reasons.

      Its that simple! And, given the way government lifers hate Trump, I suspect they have gone through his retuns with a fine tooth comb (unofficially) and if there was anything in them, the leak would be a flood coming form that office,

      1. Ron, I won’t vote for Trump for a variety of reasons. But my point here was more about Graham’s hypocrisy.

        I don’t share your suspicion. They cannot be audited without authorization, and they’re in a safe.

        Michael Grunwald of Politico interviewing IRS Commissioner John Koskinen before Koskinen retired in 2017:

        MG: You know I’ve got to ask: Are [Trump’s] taxes really being audited?

        JK: I can’t tell you anything about anyone’s taxes, so you’ll have to go with whatever he says.

        MG: You’re not going to give up his return?

        JK: It’s in a locked cabinet in a locked room that nobody’s in. You’ll need a key to the room and the cabinet to get it. We’re in the process of turning that cabinet into a safe. We keep all the returns from every president in there.

        MG: So have you looked at his return?

        JK: I had no authority to look at anybody’s returns. Nobody can, unless you’re authorized for the process of examination. I couldn’t look at my own return. Anyone who looks at anyone’s return [without authorization] is subject to termination. We take this stuff seriously. Everyone’s aware of the history of the Nixon enemies list. No individual employee can even select a return for audit; we get automated referrals, and they go straight to a committee. …

        1. Well if you believe that, then let me tell you about some great waterfront property in LA bayou country!

          Remember Obama and the IRS?

          1. Ron,

            Are you referring to this Inspector General’s report, which concluded that between 2004 and 2013, “the IRS used inappropriate criteria to select tax-exempt applications for further review”? https://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2017reports/201710054fr.pdf

            If so, I object to what occurred, but it doesn’t back up your suspicion that “they have gone through his retuns with a fine tooth comb (unofficially) and if there was anything in them, the leak would be a flood coming form that office.”

            If you’re referring to something else, please clarify.

            1. CTHD.. What I am saying is since 2017 when he took office, there has been multiple, numerious, untold numbers of ” leaks” from various government sources that are illegal and can be grounds for termination.

              So what I am saying is the same illegal actions we find in other government agencies is going to occur in the IRS. Based on that belief, I think they have already looked. And, when only a percentage of returns are reviewed ( not official audits), but reviews to determine audits, the returns with the highest dollars and complexity are the ones pulled.

              If there was anything there, it would have been leaked in 3+ years.

              1. And I’m saying that just because you believe it doesn’t guarantee it’s true.

                Here’s something I believe (which could of course be mistaken too): if Trump had nothing to hide, he’d release his returns.

                1. So again it goes back to you believing that is important and my believing it is not.

                  I am more concerned about trade with China being fair at both ends, not free at our end and taxed out the butt at the other end. Cost jobs in America while increasing trade imbalance.

                  I am more concerned with unfair climate agreement requiring Americans to reduce output of CO 2 now, while allowing China, the largest polluter, to continue to increase through the 2030’s and not reduce to 2018 level until sometime around 2050. They take our jobs and they pollute the air!

                  I am more concerned with tax policy where industries find it profitable to move overseas because their taxes are 15%-25% and ours was in the 35% range.

                  I am more concerned with people burning down towns.

                  I am more concerned with people who have never owned a gun buying them because they are fearful of the leftest organizations shooting cops and demonstrators.

                  I could give a crap if Trump lies because his lies dont create government policy that lives on well past his administration like the progressive agenda supported by the left wing wackos that have taken control of that party.

                  I will say once again, I am not aligned with a party. I am aligned with policies. I would prefer anyone other than Trump with Trumps agenda. Even a democrat. But I am stuck with a choice between a little useful third party vote, a no damn way vote ( Biden) or an Oh Crap Trump vote. In a country like America, there is no reason we cant have candidates like JFK and Ronald Reagan every 4 years instead of Bush 43, Kerry, Clinton (H that is), Obama and Trump!

                  1. I’m concerned about the issues you list as well. It’s not either-or. It’s both-and. Take trade with China. His trade war has harmed us: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2020/08/07/more-pain-than-gain-how-the-us-china-trade-war-hurt-america/

                    You say “I could give a crap if Trump lies because his lies dont create government policy,” but the Executive branch creates all sorts of policies that build on his lies (like his lie about China paying the tariffs, when it’s American consumers paying them). His lies have contributed to people dying from COVID-19. Woodward has him on tape in February, privately admitting how much more harmful SARS-CoV-2 is than the flu, when he was publicly saying that it’s just the flu. Trump lied about the availability of tests. Take a look at some of his lies about all of this: https://web.archive.org/web/20200911224033/https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/08/trumps-lies-about-coronavirus/608647/
                    Almost 200,000 Americans have already died from it. If he weren’t so unfit to serve, he could have helped save many of those lives. For goodness sake, he has literally blamed Obama for not having developed tests for a disease that didn’t exist when Obama left office. He blames Obama for the inadequacy of emergency stockpiles that Trump over 3 years to replenish. He is a baby who takes credit for good things and blames others for anything that doesn’t go well. Unlike Harry Truman, who said “The buck stops here,” Trump literally said “I don’t take any responsibility at all.”

                    1. Please, I can not debate with someone who is blinded by hate of one man . If you really believe government can control a virus and its outcome in a free country, then there is no way for you and I to discuss that issue. We are not New Zealand restricting people to the cities. We are not South Korea where we can track 100% of the people with cell phones. While you are blaming Trump for covid deaths, police are dying and people who support your positions are shouting “hope they die” in front of the hospital.

                      I can only provide a non political summary of covid actions that takes over a hour to read and longer to analyze that shows how our government responded.

                      But I bet you forget when the alphabet news agencies who are now blaming Trump for ignoring covid, they also were ignoring it, the democrats were ignoring it and Trump was spending much if his time on the impeachment.

                    2. I’m not blinded with hate, Ron. I see quite clearly, and I have no problem having a fact-based discussion about it.

                      We can discuss it as long as both of us are trying to have a sincere and honest discussion. That’s certainly my goal. I recognize that the US, NZ, and SK have both similarities and differences. I’m not going to ignore the differences, but neither will I ignore the similarities, nor limit the comparison to those 3 countries. For that matter, there are similarities and differences between SARS-CoV-2 and previous pandemic illnesses, and we can also compare the various Presidents’ responses within the U.S. to different pandemics.

                      I’d seen you post that link previously and had already started reading it out of interest, despite knowing of other timelines. Likewise, I hope that you’ve chosen to look at the Just Security timeline I’d previously given you a link to (I hope you didn’t simply assume that your link was better, and that you needn’t look at my link); if not, here it is again: https://www.justsecurity.org/69650/timeline-of-the-coronavirus-pandemic-and-u-s-response/ The two timelines overlap, but each has info not in the other. I find it rather arrogant of the NOQ Report to claim that theirs is “definitive” when it clearly leaves out significant info; that they say “as far as we’ve been able to find, the only one of its kind” only means they’re not very good at searching for other significant timelines.

                      As for “I bet you forget when the alphabet news agencies who are now blaming Trump for ignoring covid, they also were ignoring it, the democrats were ignoring it and Trump was spending much if his time on the impeachment,”
                      a) Trump is President and has access to intel that neither the news agencies nor Congress has access to; he was getting the President’s Daily Briefings, and they were not. He also has a duty to care for the country to the best of his ability, regardless of what news agencies or anyone else is doing.
                      b) Trump was spending some of his time on impeachment and some of his time on other things, including golf and rallies. The coronavirus is absolutely one of the things he should have been spending significant time and energy on, drawing on all of the resources that he had access to as President.
                      c) Despite your claim, they weren’t all ignoring it. As a simple example, read this editorial by Biden that USA Today published in January (do you consider USA Today an “alphabet news agency”?): https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/01/27/coronavirus-donald-trump-made-us-less-prepared-joe-biden-column/4581710002/

                    3. OK this really needs to be our last comments on this situation since I am getting into discussions I have had with others concerning this situation before, for instance, if you will look at the budget cuts for the CDDC taht took place, you will find that the majority of that had nothing to do with preventable diseases and much was in issues like safety of sidewalks and playgrounds in communities. I looked at the line item budget for that agency and little came out of disease management.

                      I have also read the summary you provided and based on what I see, I do not see much that would have stopped the spread of the disease in this country or world wide.First China hid the fact they had it for weeks, We had people coming back from China exposed and once that got into the country, it could not be controlled. Look at Washington were once case became a pandemic and in New York were one case did the same.

                      You come from the perspective that government is the answer. I come for the perspective that government is the problem in most cases. I believe if a few things had happened differently, we may have had a different outcome.
                      1. Protection for medical workers.
                      2. Regular testing of nursing home patients and staff, with staff tested almost daily.
                      3. Mass transit in New York maintained at maximum operation spreading out riders and not limiting trains that crammed in essential workers in fewer trains.
                      4. Easing the limited use of Remdisivir when it showed signs of helping and using that on early stages of hospitalization, and not waiting until the end of life stage.
                      5. I support mask use.
                      6. In my state, all the small mom and pop stores that had no more than 10 people inside at any time had to close in rural counties. Where did they go to shop, Big box stores in larger cities, standing in line to get in, in the store with hundreds of others, even though they were limiting customers, standing in line to check out, What happened when they were exposed. They exposed others in rural counties where they lived. All stores should have remained open to spread the number of people out, not cram them into one or two stores.
                      7. High Schools and colleges should have been put on internet learning, but elementary schools left open.(Mask worn)

                      So we will just have to agree to disagree, you vote for Biden and I will vote for Jorgensen. And if you don’t live in one of 5-6 states, the outcome is already known.

                    4. Young, I don’t assume that Biden is the sole author, just like I don’t assume that Trump is the sole author of things that have his name as author. I assume that he contributed to it; you’re free to assume he didn’t. Either way, that editorial wouldn’t have been printed under Biden’s name without his approval, and it’s a fact that it was printed in USA Today in January with Biden’s name.

                    5. CTHD– You are free to assume Biden said okey dokey to the article. Makes no difference to the shock it gave me.

                      When I looked at it I thought that it was the type of article that a candidate for president with his years of experience should be able to write easily.

                      When I imagine the mind behind that article and compare it to the guttering candle that is Bidens mind it is a shock.

                      Having that article bearing his name doesn’t help Biden. It reminds us, starkly, what he isn’t and never will be.

                    6. CTHD. After reading the summary you sent, I see there were many decisions or lack of decisions that were wrong. But there are some that I question as to the impact they had on our current situation. For instance, the cut in the CDC budget was not a “cut”. It was a reduction in the growth of spending in the CDC. It was a “Washington D.C.” cut, meaning if you make $25.00 a hour today and I told you you would make $35.00 in 2022, but later come back and say, its $30.00, I have cut your wages by $5.00.

                      I do think that shipping million of medical supplies to china was stupid when it was needed here. But there are things reported here, by a group of writers that are considered half way between moderate (center) and far left, that are not reconciled with some of the things in the report I posted. There are comments in your summary where Trump ignored the situation, all while the summary I posted shows actions being taken by CDC, NIH and other organizations active during the beginning of the pandemic

                      My point. I have never trusted government. I have not trusted reporters since about 1995. So when I read summaries that have conflicting information or do not contain critical parts of various summaries, I question the information being posted. I now want to know why the summary I posted did not include that information that was in the one you posted covering pre-January 2020. And why didn’t informatio in the one I posted get into the one you posted.

                      So my conclusion. Said this before, but in a different way.
                      Trump- Don’t trust him, women especially should not when close.
                      Trump- Lies
                      Trump- Policies that will last many years, I like most
                      Biden- Nice guy, except around women
                      Biden- Lies also, has a record of them, they just don’t come multiple times a day.( Don’t ask for details, just remember he is a politician)
                      Biden- Policies that will last many years that I do not like.
                      Conclusion, will not vote for either one, will vote FOR Jorgensen to give a third party one more vote to a goal of qualifying for matching funds and a place at the next presidential debates. Voting should always be voting FOR something instead of holding your nose around stink and picking the least offensive one.

                      We desperately need competition between parties and not just the duopoly that the two parties have on Washington today. I can not image two elections worse than the last one and this one , but it will happen in the future sometime. When one has to make a choice between Trump, who many dislike, but could vote for him, and then look at Harris as president because Bunker Basement Joe is being hidden from the public 50 days before the election, that is not a good choice. No presidential candidate qualified to be president should be holed up and not out in public letting people know where he stands on almost a daily basis 50 days before the election.

                    7. “I do think that shipping million of medical supplies to china was stupid when it was needed here.”

                      That is true, but no one recognized that it was needed here. I wonder what our CIA was doing? They are supposed to be looking for threats to the US, but they were too busy doing things they weren’t supposed to do.

                      Ron, AID’s (HIV) was detected by a clerk. He noted a certain drug was being requested and the amounts were unusual. Shouldn’t our CIA noted that something was going on in China and that they were collecting PPE equipment from all over the world? That was unusual and unusual is one of the thing the CIA looks at when protecting us from our enemies. What were they doing that occupied their time so that they didn’t see this coming?

                      “There are comments in your summary where Trump ignored the situation,”

                      You have made some very good statements in your comments but the question I would ask is what major figures wanted to act quicker than Trump?

                      Biden? No.
                      Pelosi? No
                      Schumer? No.
                      Fauci? No.

                      What did the democrats believe was the most important question of the time? A hoax in order to impeach a President in an attempt to stop him from doing things while in office. Now after tying his hands and criticizing every move he made against Covid they want to claim he was too slow. Are those democrats crazy? Yes.

                      In summary, based on the facts, who is responsible for the slow response? Not Trump. He responded quickly. The democrats refused to even focus on the Covid virus. Not only that but the democrats severely criticized and impeded Trump’s actions when he chose to close our borders. Democrats are interested in power but have little interest in protecting America and its people.

                    8. Allen ” What were they doing that occupied their time so that they didn’t see this coming?”

                      Hummm, with the number of leaks out of the spook agencies, I have my thoughts.

                      And if you can find my comments to CTHD, much of what you said I had taken the same position. But I was asked to review a summary provided that listed some covid timeline issues that were different from the one I provided. I did that and based on that timeline, one can take the position that Trump is 100% responsible for covid getting into the country due to defunding CDC, elimination the global pandemic team and other non actions.

                      But I dont take that position. I know when they say he cut $1.3 billion over 10 years, that is not a cut. It is reduced growth in spending. I also have read from multiple sources 6-8 months ago that the elimination of the global team did not eliminate that function. It was reassigned. But this is government, media and politics.

                      Did Trump do everything right. No! But neither did Cuomo, the Covid darling of the left. Biden and Pelosi called Trump xenophobic. when he stopped China flights. Later he stopped flights from middle east, Pelosi called him a racist. Our governor closed down every small business, making everyone to stand in lines at Costco, Sams and a few other big box stores. Rural people came to cities, and some contacted C19 and took it back to the country side. All while not protecting nursing homes, the most vulnerable.

                      It is just like political ad attacking Sen. Tillis for cutting veterans healthcare. Yes, but the funds were transferred to a program of Veterans Choice, were they can choose providers, not military providers. There was no cut in total.

                      The issue is few people investigate political messages, media reports and social media post. If they did, I dont there would be so much misrepresented facts.

                    9. “Did Trump do everything right. No! But neither did Cuomo”

                      If one breaks the potential responses into what could be done one is faced with the facts that highly transmissible respiratory viruses do what they want. Eventually everyone that is not naturally protected from the virus ends up with the virus.

                      What we can do: create a vaccine that may or may not work, find medical treatments for the disease and isolate people from the disease with PPE that has some effect or total isolation that depends the ability to keep people in isolation. Then there is testing which is really part of isolation.

                      What we know is that the vast vast majority of deaths are with nursing home patients, the elderly and the sick

                      What did Cuomo do? Absolutely nothing and what he did do killed thousands. He placed Covid patients into nursing homes which is the stupidest thing to do. He pretended to do things but he was unprepared even though he was warned the state had inadequate ventilators and PPE. He also knew that under normal flu conditions certain hospitals became overloaded with regular flu cases and people died. He did nothing to fix those hospitals and they are mostly the same hospitals that were overloaded with Covid.

                      Right or wrong, what did Trump do?

                      He permitted the free market to act which reversed the way the Obama Biden administration handled the normal flu and any pandemic. It was the rigid control by government that prevented adequate testing. It was government, thank you Obama and Biden that even supported the Chinese lab where this virus most certainly came from. It was Obama and Biden that supported the shifting of jobs to China along with making American healthcare dependent on our enemy, China.

                      Therefore in record time starting from near zero due to the failures of the Obama and Biden administration Trump

                      Built up PPE equipment and ventilators far faster than any other administration could have done.

                      Built hospitals in areas needing help and supplied those hospitals with staff. In NY he bailed out the failed governor providing virtually everything including a surplus of hospital beds where Covid patients could have been kept instead of sending them back to the nursing homes.

                      Fast tracked medications and paid in advance to get vaccines ASAP. Instead of 3-5 years we may have one in less than a year due to the efforts of our President.

                      He is getting equipment that didn’t exist to nursing homes so that testing can be done on site throughout the country and has set up a way of handling this type of problem in the future probably with some of the same laboratory machines.

                      While doing all of this he has been restocking federal stores of PPE Ventilators etc.

                      To try and slow the spread of the virus he banned travel from a number of countries.

                      Virtually everything Trump did or tried to do was met with derision by democrats who had no plans of their own. They were too busy trying to destroy a presidency not caring about American lives.

                      As far as CTDHD and Btb, they are both liars and can never be trusted. Take note that they cannot provide democrat plans to fight the virus except those plans already attempted by Trump and managed far more efficiently.

                      The democrats are using this virus and children to try and influence the coming election. What has been forgotten by democrats are the small businesses. Democrats get their campaign contributions from large businesses and those businesses have been kept open while the small businessman has been closed shut. Democrats are supported by the teachers unions which are destroying the education of our children and at the present they want to keep children at home and businesses shut until the election is over.

                      I can go on and on but I never in my life thought that one political party could become so anti-American and hurtful to Americas citizens. However, I have learned that there is a segment in our country of despicable people like the ones named above who are more than willing to cause pain to their neighbors. That is why we see BLM and Antifa killing people and police while destroying neighborhoods and making life intolerable to regular people like you and me.

                    10. Ron P, of course we are not as small as NZ or S Korea, but that is not an excuse for what happened here and Trump – he’s the f..king President then and now, not reporters or Joe Biden – complete failure to lead as well as is possible in our country in a crisis. He failed to marshal resources only he was able to to supply the country and not only failed to help implement sane and responsible guidelines for citizens, he actively sabotaged that effort and continues to do so. Hell, you don’t have to imagine he did this on purpose. He admitted it to Woodward. You can watch him everyday. Yesterday he actively broke Nevada law by hosting too many inside in a rally – and without face masks except those behind him on the stage who were directed to – and then he said we’ve turned the corner on the virus.You eat this BS for dinner? I don’t. The corner we’ve turned is that we are now on the edge of – wait for it – FLU SEASON!!! You think there might be a reason the winter months are the worst for viruses? And this toad is pretending – as he has all along – that it’s a hoax, it’ll just go away.

                      Unbelievable, but people still buy what this guy sells.

                    11. BTB, People only see what they want to see and ignore everything else. Both sides of the debate. Just like my comment about voting. Who did I say I would vote FOR and why?

                    12. Ron,

                      FWIW, Rich Weinstein, the author listed for the NOQ timeline, is aware of the Just Security timeline, as it’s one of the sources he drew on. I don’t know whether Just Security is aware of the NOQ timeline, but there’s a note at the bottom of the JS timeline page inviting readers to send suggestions and providing an email address for that, so perhaps you want to email them. (I did that once earlier, and they took my comment seriously.) If you don’t, perhaps I will.

                      I agree that some of the things that are noted might not have had a significant impact; they’re listed in an effort to be comprehensive. But others *are* significant. I’ll take just one set of related choices — about how the Trump Admin. responded to the need for personal protective equipment (for first responders and in hospitals) and regular masks (for the general population). The JS article noted: “Mid-to-late December 2019: A team of government public servants in Alberta, Canada responds to reports of an “influenza-like virus” in China by increasing their emergency stockpile of hospital masks, gloves, and gowns.” One of the questions in the Pandemic Playbook that the Obama Admin. gave to the Trump Admin. was “Is there sufficient personal protective equipment for healthcare workers who are providing medical care? If YES: What are the triggers to signal exhaustion of supplies? Are additional supplies available? If NO: Should the Strategic National Stockpile release PPE to States?” Another page lists “key decisions,” including “Determine whether Strategic National Stockpile resources are necessary” and “Prioritization and allocation of resources subject to the Defense Production Act (DPA).”

                      If the Trump Admin. had been acting competently, they would have started thinking about PPE in December like some of Canada did: checking what the status of the Strategic National Stockpile was (both in terms of numbers and in terms of whether any of the stockpile was outdated and needed to be replaced — something they should have been checking on an ongoing basis anyway), checking the status of hospitals around the country, etc., and adding to the SNS if needed. The NOQ timeline cites an article titled “The US was offered millions of masks in January. The Trump administration turned the offer down. A Texas medical supply company told the federal government it could make 1.7 million N95 masks for the US per week — but no order came.” Why didn’t they act on this? If needed, Trump also could have could have invoked the Defense Production Act early on to produce needed PPE. For that matter, the Admin. could have ordered regular masks to distribute around the country (even making some available at no cost — so that whoever needed one could just take one when entering a store or getting on a bus or if they were poor and worked and/or lived in close quarters), encouraging all Americans to use them in public as a small patriotic act to help our fellow Americans.

                      He also should have guaranteed to businesses that the feds would purchase PPE and then distribute it to the states, so that businesses would know that they had a guaranteed purchaser and to prevent what happened, where states were competing with each other to purchase PPE, driving prices up and making delivery less certain. Not only did Trump do little to help with PPE, but the feds sometimes seized PPE that had been ordered by states. It was a mess.

                      I think there are a slew of examples like this where the Trump Admin. f’d up. I truly don’t believe that Trump cares about the many people who’ve died or otherwise been harmed, except to the extent that it reflects poorly on *him*, because he’s a malignant narcissist who lacks the capacity for empathy. Look at his rally last night: lots of people crowded together indoors, most without masks on, except those sitting right behind Trump in view of the cameras. Trump said that he wasn’t worried about contracting it, because he was far away from people. But he expressed no concern about his fans contracting it. If he actually cared, he wouldn’t have held an indoor rally.

                      We were supposed to be the best prepared country in the world. We have less than 5% of the global population, but 20% of the global COVID deaths. It’s shameful.

                    13. Well first, I hope you read my various comments where I mentioned voting.

                      Second, one can not compare deaths in America where the pandemic hit early and compare to countries like Brazil and India where the virus hit later, more was known and their government was not as restrictive in using drugs compared to us. If I get the virus, my doctor decides I need to be hospitalized and my healthcare team thinks certain drugs given early is appropriate, I do not want some f-+% up government FDA employee telling them, no, he has to be terminal before using Remdisivir or HCQ like happened with many early here.

                      You blame Trump. Fine. I blame government, all of it. You believe government works for you. I believe government mostly works against me. There are few things federal government does well or efficiently. I believe moving as much down to local level as possible. You seem to want more controlled out of Washington.

                      That is the difference between progressive Democrats and Libertarian Republicans.

                    14. Ron, who you are voting for does not cancel out your comments excusing the incompetent (points to the scoreboard) and dishonest (listen to the tape) reaction by our President to the virus.

                    15. I could give a flying F— what the president did or did not do with the virus. I do not believe anything that comes out of Washington could have changed anything as to the results. I think the FDA restricting use of various drugs had a much greater impact on mortality than any other government decision. If you go into the hospital in serious condition, I believe it is between you and the doctors what drugs they use. When you become critical or grave, the chances if any drug being used off label or unapproved compassionate use is greatly reduced in effectiveness. Look at the early states impacted and death rates compared to states impacted later and their death rate. Using drugs later in the pandemic earlier in hospitalization, cut mortality considerably. The early deaths are on the FDA!

                      So yo can support govt and I will continue believing govt is the problem, not the solution. Trump made mistakes. But not as big as FDA interference and governors like Cuomo.

                      It is a belief between progressive democrats and government control and my libertarian beliefs that the least amount of givernment is the best government.

                    16. False, it has not “harmed us.” that is brookings institution nonsense. they are parroting their donors’ interests.

                      he has harmed business interests of massive multinational corporations that exploit slave labor in china to the detriment of American workers. ‘

                      so the controlling ownership and managerial interests hate him for it. simple as that.

                    17. Brookings Institution Partnered With Shanghai Policy Center Under Scrutiny for Spying
                      Shanghai Academy acts as a front for Chinese spy recruitment, according to FBI

                      Alana GoodmanAugust 14, 2020 5:00 AM
                      National Security

                      Brookings Institution / Wikimedia Commons
                      The Brookings Institution, a prominent Washington, D.C., think tank, partnered with a Shanghai policy center that the FBI has described as a front for China’s intelligence and spy recruitment operations, according to public records and federal court documents.

                      The Brookings Doha Center, the think tank’s hub in Qatar, signed a memorandum of understanding with the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences in January 2018, the institution said. The academy is a policy center funded by the Shanghai municipal government that has raised flags within the FBI.

                      The partnership raises questions about potential Chinese espionage activities at the think tank, which employs numerous former government officials and nearly two dozen current foreign policy advisers to Joe Biden’s presidential campaign. continued:


                    18. Ron,

                      Yes, I read your various comments where you mentioned voting. For me, this is less about voting than about having a clear understanding of what occurred and the various people who are responsible.

                      “You blame Trump. Fine.”

                      Just to be clear: he isn’t the only person I blame. I’m simply saying that he is the most powerful person in the U.S. (arguably in the world), and he is the person who has the greatest blame. Just like I don’t blame Johnson alone or Bush 43 alone.

                      “You believe government works for you.”

                      Please don’t pretend that you know what my beliefs are, unless I’ve told you. I believe that the government sometimes works for me and sometimes against me, and that it varies a lot by the area of the government and that within a single area, it also varies by person. There are good people and bad people in the government. Some of the bad people are simply inept, but some are corrupt or even evil. Yet others are just people whose values are different from mine.

                      “You seem to want more controlled out of Washington.”

                      Sometimes I want more, sometimes I want less. Depends on the issue. These kinds of overgeneralization strike me as unproductive.

                    19. “These kinds of overgeneralization strike me as unproductive.”

                      And therein lies the problems with any kind of discussion over the internet. One can get the impression of one set of circumstances and they are completely wrong. And I am not sure how on a site like this we can discuss our own political persuasion, especially when Trump dislike overtakes every discussion.

                      I can only say if you look at the policies of the Trump administration, I support most of them.
                      I do not support Obama era policies of health care, Global climate policies and regulation
                      I do not support past government unfair trade policies that has taken many jobs from America, while protectionist policies in china do not allow our products into the country.
                      I do not support tax policy that makes our tax rates higher than foreign countries, making it beneficial for companies to move overseas.
                      I am open to climate agreements as long as they are equal in treatment for all countries, not the Paris accord crap Obama signed.
                      I am open to a government option for healthcare to COMPETE with private insurance for subscribers, with the funds in PPACA and Medicaid going to support those subscribers.
                      I can even be persuaded to support a minimum wage that is based on a national average of $15, as long as it is adjusted by a wage index in each metropolitan area. For instance, the minimum would be $20 in NYC and San Francisco, but $10 in Little rock Arkansas. $15 in NYC is poverty, almost starving, while you can survive nicely, especially unmarried at $15 in Arkansas.

                      What I can not accept is a President that in the constitution is given very limited domestic powers in the constitution, while those powers rest with the House and Senate.I can not accept that person being expected to do things a king would do and when he or she can not by law, they get blamed. They can propose something, but that is it! And given the hatred of the house that was totally engrossed in the impeachment when covid hit our shores, there is no way in hell Nancy Pelosi would have supported Trump in anything he asked for. She would have said he was trying to misdirect attention from impeachment and she was not going to fall for it.

                    20. Ron, CTDHD wrote back to you saying: “you mentioned voting. For me, this is less about voting than about having a clear understanding of what occurred and the various people who are responsible.”

                      It’s a totally meaningless statement that can mean whatever one wants. It’s an attempt to put words together in a generic sense to sound smart. She fails.

                      She continues in the same manner: “there are good people and bad people…” The secretary is an expert in trivialities. She continues with the same drivel: “Sometimes I want more, sometimes I want less.”

                      She is not responding to what you wrote rather responding to a generic statement with generic answers. Did she read what you wrote? Does she care about what you wrote? She has only one focus, orange man bad.

                    21. Yes, but I try to respond and give some semblance of facts in those responses. But there are times where comments a parsed by different people and my response becomes trite and anything but nice. That seems to happen with me regularly because I have a libertarian leaning, but also understand much of what we have today in government today will never go away, so I look to ways to compromise and limit government involvement as much as possible. That confuses both those on the right and left.

                    22. Ron, re: “I could give a flying F— what the president did or did not do with the virus. I do not believe anything that comes out of Washington could have changed anything as to the results,” I strongly disagree on both counts. Of course the Trump Admin. could have done things to positively affect the results. I gave you an example earlier re: the Strategic National Stockpile, the Defense Production Act, and personal protective equipment for healthcare providers and first responders / standard masks for average people. Another example was testing. Another example was how poorly the Trump Admin. dealt with people returning to the U.S. in response to his travel restrictions: he created super spreader events with people packed into crowds. Another example is Trump’s choice — both earlier and now — to have large rallies where the virus can be spread. Another example is not having removed the CDC specialist working in China to help detect and contain disease outbreaks in China. Another example is not cutting the funding for the PREDICT project — “designed to identify and prevent pandemics related to animal-born viruses”. There’s a long list of things of things that could have changed many outcomes, and the combination of all of them is likely quite significant.

                      If you assume from the get-go that nothing “that comes out of Washington could have changed anything as to the results,” is there anything that could change your mind about that, or is your mind closed to the possibility of change?

                      “I think the FDA restricting use of various drugs had a much greater impact on mortality than any other government decision.”

                      They didn’t disallow off-label use. Doctors can prescribe off-label regardless of whether there is or isn’t an Emergency Use Authorization.

                    23. ” I gave you an example earlier re: the…”

                      All those things CTDHD listed were depleted by the Obama / Biden team and had to be created virtually from scratch. The production of many of those things were outsourced to China by the Obama / Biden team.

                      Trump almost had to reinvent the wheel and did so quickly and efficiently. CTDHD’s problem is that she is a secretary that files leftist talking points without thinking and that creates an ignorant individual. When she talks about super spreaders I won’t bother to discuss what that means. I will add that Pelosi and many democrats were inviting “super spreader” events when Trump was busy closing the borders. Some democrats even called it xenophobic and others referred to such actions as racist. Does CTDHD lack intelligence or is she a liar? Could she be both at the same time?

                    24. There are different reasons for different beliefs. Many based on selective interest. My beliefs in C19 are shaped by my beliefs in government incompetence and “expert” advice given the president early in the process.

                      I will admit I was unaware if many issues like USA shipping millions of dollars worth of supplies to China and depleted reserves by Obama. Here again, govt incompetence. Why not replace after using, why ship out when needed here?

                    25. Ron, the federal government needs to be small leaving far more power to the people and the states. That would avoid a lot of the problems we are seeing. Instead it is growing and the nation is moving toward a giant California/NYS control over the people. Before the lefties applaud that idea they should think about impending bankruptcies and deterioration of services. They should also look at how Cuomo, a likely leader of such a nation in the future ignorantly killed thousands of Covid patients and did nothing to provide NYS with its Covid needs. That is something Cuomo left to Trump and then tried to shift blame when the blame is justifiably Cuomo’s.

                    26. Ron, you’re simply wrong re: “a President that in the constitution is given very limited domestic powers in the constitution, while those powers rest with the House and Senate.I can not accept that person being expected to do things a king would do and when he or she can not by law, they get blamed. They can propose something, but that is it!”

                      The President has power to do all sorts of things, not just propose them. An example is that the President can invoke the Defense Production Act. Another example is that the President has the power to speak honestly with the American people instead of lying over and over. Imagine if Trump had actually spoken to the American people like Churchill did: calmly explaining the seriousness of the pandemic and asking all Americans to patriotically wear masks and consistently wearing one himself and demanding that everyone around him wear one. But no, he couldn’t bring himself to do it. He had the power to tell the CDC to leave a position In China to help detect and address disease outbreaks there. He had the power to make sure that the Strategic National Stockpile was properly stocked. …

                      “There is no way in hell Nancy Pelosi would have supported Trump in anything he asked for. She would have said he was trying to misdirect attention from impeachment and she was not going to fall for it.”

                      That’s a reasonable conjecture, but I actually think if Trump simply marshaled scientists to make the argument and said that we need to follow the science, she wouldn’t have responded as you predict. It’s not as though the House was at a standstill during the impeachment trial.

                    27. CTHD, we are never going to agree. You have your beliefs concerning Trump and I have my beliefs concerning government. But I will just pick a few items from the timeline.
                      1/21: CDC’s Dr. Nancy Messonier “announced that a few days earlier the CDC had ‘finalized development’ of its test and used it to confirm the first coronavirus infection in the US, a man in Washington State who had traveled from the Wuhon region.”
                      “In coming weeks, we anticipate sharing these tests with domestic and international partners” she said. “… we continue to believe of this novel coronavirus to the American public at large remains low at this time.” Source: Washington Post 4/18 “Contamination at CDC lab delayed virus tests’ rollout”

                      Test later was flawed . Why? I say government incompetence, did not verify effectiveness/reliability
                      Another “expert” Trump relied on for advice saying risk to American puboic “low”.

                      1/21, “Gilead is presently shipping enough doses of the drug to China to treat 500 patients and is increasing its supply in case the clinical trials are effective.” ( remdisivir)

                      1/26: “The American people should not be worried or frightened by this. It’s a very, very low risk to the United States,” Fauci says on The CATS Roundtable. “It isn’t something that the American public needs to worry about or be frightened about.”

                      Again, another “expert” giving “dont worry”” advice.

                      1/26 “On Sunday, Dr. Nancy Messonnier, director of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, said the risk to the American public for contracting this virus continues to be low.”

                      Another experts low risk advice

                      1/28: CDC Director Robert Redfield to colleagues: “While we believe the 2019-nCoV poses a very serious health threat, the virus in not spreading in the US at this time and the CDC believes the immediate health risk from 2019-nCoV to the general American public is low.”

                      Experts advice!

                      1/31: Washington state coronavirus patient treated with investigational, unapproved Ebola drug
                      Remdesivir has not been approved for use by the Food and Drug Administration, although doctors can pursue “compassionate use” of a drug in the event of a serious health condition where the benefits outweigh the risks. The patient consented to this treatment.

                      Govt red tape increasing deaths since drugs not used during earlier stages when mire effective!

                      2/5: Gilead’s Remdesivir Begins Trials as Researchers Publish Positive In Vitro Results

                      More govt red tape!

                      2/17: Fauci announces that the risk of coronavirus infection in the U.S. is “miniscule,” according to USA Today. Fauci, one of the top experts in the field and a senior White House coronavirus adviser, also told the paper that people shouldn’t wear masks unless they are contagious. (By April 3, Fauci appeared to endorse national stay-at-home orders

                      Expert advice!!!!!

                      So there is more, Fauci told america no human to human soread, then there is.

                      If Trump was not going to follow their advice, why are they employed as the experts to give advice?

                      Everyone can pick and choose actions to support their positions. Because for every action, their are alternatives and one can find many alternatives about this virus. Just look at Sweden and America. Sweden basically stayed open. Deaths per million 579. USA, ( with high population states locked down, screwed the economy, severely impacted kids without internet access to schools, etc) deaths per million 601. What Sweden did was protecting elderly and sick. Governors did just the opposite.

                      AND…if my doctor and I agree that “Special X ” unapproved drug would save my life if given within 3-4 days of diagnosis, then I dont want some lifers in D.C. making it illegal until I am just hours away from death! Look how long it took for remdisivir to be used effectively!

                      DO YOU?

                    28. Nancy Pelosi and almost every other democrat were doing the best they could to obstruct the President no matter what he did. That make what you say B.S.

                    29. CTHD..one other thing that I look at differently than you. I live in a state where our state health dept gives daily updates, we have numerous communicable disease doctors from various parts of the state giving updates in their area and a governor that uses facts, data and science to support his actions. There are still fewer than 50% wearing a mask, and when they do, it is under their chin or at least nose exposed. These people are not going to follow any politician when it infringes on what they want to do. Even in California where people follow the governor like cattle following the lead bell, there are many ignoring any directives they dont agree with. And, althkugh I social distance and wear a mask, there is much I disagree with concerning our governors actions. I understand some refusig to folliw.

                    30. Ron,

                      Re: why the tests were flawed, I’d want to an investigation of why that occurred. Saying “government incompetence” is too broad a category to be helpful (in the sense of adding safeguards that will help prevent it from happening again). Was it simply sloppiness? were people feeling pressured to produce a test de novo instead of using tests that had already been developed internationally? why did the FDA initially prevented state and commercial labs from developing diagnostic tests? were there sufficient reagents, and was that something that should have been assessed earlier as part of an effective federal pandemic response? … Maybe this has already been investigated, and I simply haven’t read it. But I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to guess. We need an evidence-based review, and then appropriate policy changes.

                      I think it’s important not to cut quotes off in ways that change their meanings. For ex., on 1/21, here’s a longer excerpt of what Messonnier said “we have now confirmed the first case of novel coronavirus in the United States. … we continue to believe the risk of this novel coronavirus to the American public at large remains low at this time. … We are monitoring the situation closely and working to keep you informed every step of the way. … We are aware that this situation could change quickly. … there is new information hour by hour, day by day that we are tracking and following closely … Information is rapidly evolving and we hope that over the next coming days, the situation will become clearer and certainly as you point out, the key issue that we all need to understand is how easily or sustainably the virus is spread form human to human and that is information we don’t completely have nailed down yet. But we’re continuing to work globally with all our partners to better understand it. …”

                      She clearly wasn’t saying that the risk is “low” in any absolute sense.

                      Also recall that on Feb. 25, when Trump lied, tweeting “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!,” Messonier responded “Ultimately, we expect we will see community spread in this country. It’s not so much a question of if this will happen anymore but rather more a question of exactly when this will happen and how many people in this country will have severe illness.” She described “non-pharmaceutical interventions,” like school closures, business teleconferencing, etc., and added “I understand this whole situation may seem overwhelming and that disruption to everyday life may be severe.  But these are things that people need to start thinking about now. … in general we are asking the American public to work with us to prepare in the expectation that this could be bad.  I continue to hope that in the end we’ll look back and feel like we are over-prepared, but that is a better place to be in than being under-prepared.”

                      And Trump was reportedly “furious” with her, because he was worried that the CDC’s warnings had “spooked” the stock market (words in quotes from various news reports at the time that had those words in quotes), and there were reports that he was even thinking about firing her. And you can see in his tweet that he was trying to downplay the concerns (as he said to Woodward) and that he was focused on the stock market, not on public health.

                      Something similar if you look at Fauci’s entire 1/26 interview: he also says that it’s “an evolving situation” and “Every day, we have to look at it very carefully,” and “it’s something we, as public health officials, need to take very seriously.”

                      And I have to admit that I wonder whether Messonnier and Fauci had access to all of the intelligence that Trump had access to at the time. I honestly don’t know. I also don’t assume that them telling the public not to be worried at the time indicates what they were saying to Trump at the time. It’s entirely possible that they were simultaneously urging Trump to have the Administration act more urgently in certain ways.

                      So if we’re going to look at what these officials were saying at different points in time, we need to look at much more than your brief quotes. We also have to interpret things in context: when Fauci said that people shouldn’t wear masks unless contagious, there was a mask shortage. It’s no surprise that he’d triage how they should/shouldn’t be used. The bigger issue is: why was there a shortage? Because of lack of preparation.

                      “If Trump was not going to follow their advice, why are they employed as the experts to give advice?”

                      We don’t know what they were advising him in private. It’s foolish to think that people reveal in public everything that they’ve said in private.

                      Re: Sweden, their results were still much worse than their Scandanavian neighbors.

                      Re: “Special X,” your doctor cannot honestly agree that an “unapproved drug would save [your] life if given within 3-4 days of diagnosis.” They can *dishonestly* agree to that, pretending to know something they don’t actually know. But if the drug hasn’t been approved yet (which is distinct from off-label use), we shouldn’t pretend to know things we don’t actually know.

                      Re: “These people are not going to follow any politician when it infringes on what they want to do,” I’m not convinced of that. There’s a huge political split in who wears masks, with Democrats more likely to do so: https://news.gallup.com/poll/315590/americans-face-mask-usage-varies-greatly-demographics.aspx If it were advocated by all politicians, including Trump, and also by scientists, perhaps some of the people who are currently resistant would wear them. I remember that a bunch of people who’d tweeted about not being willing to wear masks also said that they’d buy masks when the Trump campaign started selling them.

                    31. “… Maybe this has already been investigated, and I simply haven’t read it.”

                      Finally you have provided a correct answer.

                    32. CTHD, I appreciate your detailed responses, but I cant spend a lot of time finding old articles where I have documented previous data on other sites. Maybe I need to create a file that includes these when I need to access.

                      So I will take your comments and begin looking at old data and if I find it I will share.

                      So, the issue with depleted mask and PPE. I said this occurred during Obama, you said Trump. This supports both positions.


                      Also, about 1/2 way through the article.
                      “Warnings about the United States’ lack of preparedness for a serious pandemic have come from both inside the federal government and elsewhere since at least the early 2000s and as recently as last year.”

                      Here again, multiple administrations seemed to fail. One can not put all the blame on Trump.

                      So in looking at this, the buck stops at the Presidents desk. But there are many solutions to a problem in congress had they taken the threat serious. And government agencies have ways to address issues through senators and representatives. My Point, Everyone since 2000 can be blamed.

                      AND, I did say the Trump administration shipped bunches of PPE to China. Who recommended that? Who approved that? I doubt Trump did it personally. It was wrong.

                      Finally, you missed my drug point. Remdisivir had gone through approval for Hep C in 2009. It did not work, but was safe. It was then tried for ebola and was found to work against certain virus infections. It wasvsafe. So I was not saying a doctor using an untested and unsafe drug. But if a drug is safe for something else, I, ME, MYSELF, along with my doctor should be the ones saying to use it, not some lifer in D.C. following 1000 pages if red tape rules. China began using it off label in March or Apr. The FDA did not approve it until Aug.

                      Wikipeadia “On 28 August 2020, the FDA broadened the Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) for remdesivir to include all hospitalized patients with suspected or laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, irrespective of the severity of their disease.[101][102] The Fact Sheet was updated to reflect the new guidance.[84]”

                      How many died because compassionate use was limited to the most seriously ill?

                    33. Ron, I see that Allan has been busy telling you insults and false claims about me. He’s been doing this for months, and I stopped responding to him long ago. I’m not going to go into examples of the many vile things he’s said about me personally, but I will suggest that you take his claims with a grain of salt.

                      For example, I saw his comment to you that things I’d “listed were depleted by the Obama / Biden team and had to be created virtually from scratch,” and your response to him that you were “unaware if many issues like … depleted reserves by Obama.” Allan’s claim is false. A reminder that Trump lies a lot. Trump has said things like “We didn’t have ventilators. We didn’t have medical equipment. The tests were broken — you saw that. We had broken tests. They left us nothing.” But that doesn’t mean it’s true. And you know for a fact that Obama didn’t leave “broken tests,” because it’s literally impossible for the Obama Admin. to have developed tests for SARS-CoV-2, since the virus didn’t exist when Obama left office in 2017. And the SNS wasn’t depleted when Trump came into office either: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/fact-check-trump-falsely-claims-obama-left-him-nothing-national-n1201406 Moreover, if it had been true (which it wasn’t), Obama’s been out of office for years, so it would have been the Trump Admin’s responsibility to replace any depleted reserves in 2017. Unfortunately, Trump lies a lot, and Trump supporters often accept his lies.

                    34. “Ron, I see that Allan has been busy telling you insults and false claims about me. He’s been doing this for months, and I stopped responding to him long ago. I’m not going to go into examples of the many vile things he’s said about me personally, but I will suggest that you take his claims with a grain of salt.”

                      You need to reread what was left in the stockpile and why initial tests didn’t work. They were following prior administrative methodologies. You will say the same about Cuomo but we have evidence about Cuomo not buying more ventillators as recommended and evidence of his placing Covid patients in Nursing Homes. We know that the stockpiles were not full and we know the initial failures of testing and that was due because of government limiting testing to government agencies which are behind the times. Government even closed down an investigator twice when she tried testing for a strange unknown virus.

                      Yes we had some ventillators like we did with other needed items but according to Cuomo he needed 20,000 + more. Trump filled everyone’s needs and more. He keeps producing.

                      Trump opened all of this up to private industry and that is why things happened so quickly. We have an amazing private sector that is being destroyed by the left. The Biden family was enriched through the selling of American companies to Chinese government owned companies such as AVIC which is tied into the Chinese airforce that benefitted from such a sale. He sold America down the drain in that transaction and others. Obama’s economic policies caused a loss of jobs as companies went off shore. That is why a lot of medications and equipment along with basic items used to create other things ended up in short supply.

                      I will discuss any of the points that CTDHD thinks need to be discussed. I have done so in the past on many of thse issues and others have done a better job than myself. But even there she keeps pretending those explanations never existed.

                    35. CTHD, this is the point of view I support.

                      Norway has reversed some easing due to increasing cases.
                      Denmark still has over 3,300 active cases
                      Sweden reported 108 new cases yesterday, lowest since march, significantly lower than Denmark and Finland.

                      And when evaluating death rates, when the pandemic hit a country results in higher death rates for thosebearly, like Italy, NYC and Sweden when too many unknowns were in March and April

                  2. Ron P writes:

                    “I could give a flying F— what the president did or did not do with the virus. I do not believe anything that comes out of Washington could have changed anything as to the results….”

                    Waiter, check please. I’m done.

                    1. I know. Hard for me to give Turley the click with this amount of flat earth-ness that’s so prevalent here.

          2. What about Obama and the IRS Ron? You do know that several investigations found no purposeful screening of political groups beyond the fact that certain names suggested political activities by groups seeking charity status. As with the wealthy getting their way with the IRS due to their lack of resources, the problem with the Cincinnati office was also lack of resources and agents taking short cuts. Obama had nothing to do with it. Look it up on something other than right wing propaganda pages.

            1. Why should I spend the time looking something up that I could care less about when the same is not done for Trump when the alphabet news begins spreading 1/2 truths?

              When the left begins reporting COMPLETE and accurate facts, then I will begin giving the same consideration.

                1. And I told you why. But to further the discussion, a large number of conservative groups filed suit against the IRS for illegally targeting them. But James Comey, the “excellent, competent, legal mind” that found Clinton did nothing wrong also said the IRS did nothing wrong. He was at least consistent in siding with left decisions. But in 2017, the treasury department agreed to settle the lawsuit. Claims by over four hundred conservative groups based on being discriminated against by the Internal Revenue Service was settled for a large very substantial amount that was described when it occurred as precendent setting at the time.

                  So when I said I believe IRS employees would do something illegal and mentioned this case, does the government settling for millions+ (very substantial)support my thinking?

      2. well said ron. if you don’t like it then dont vote for him. but it’s not required by law so get over it CTHD

        1. Kurtz, many if not most of the issues we discuss here do not require by law positions each of us take. Based on your response I guess none of us should be here. We should just get over it. You know that your guy is lowering one bar after another for presidential behavior that you are going to hate like root canal when those who follow him decide to continue. You might consider that.

      3. Ron the IRS does not have the resources to effectively battle rich guys with armies of lawyers, so no, you can’t count on the IRS. It is estimated that 18-20% of income is not reported in the US each year, leaving to about $500 billion in lost revenue, and those most likely to get away with it are the wealthy with lawyers.

        It’s too bad that in yet another effort to enable a low life scumbag like Trump, the GOP is willing to abandon a very good tradition in place since Reagan, of major candidates releasing their tax returns. Above you made excuses for Trump lying about Covid and then failing his duties – purposefully I might add, though in fact he probably is incapable – to lead us during the crisis. This all leaves a stain you know.

        1. on the one hand, Book expresses a legitimate concern that armies of lawyers employed by the richest bad actors can stifle proper prosecutions.

          on the other hand, IRS has a pretty good track record for collections over the past 2 decades. the OVDP program is a case in point.


          it was a major success at pursuing americans with stashed and hidden overseas income. the biggest case was against the “beanie babies” guy

          one the low end, tax law should be respected too. in the old days IRS used to bring more cases against small tax cheats. now they mostly ignor them. the theory in the old days was that the IRS is NOT JUST a collection agency but also involved in equal protection of laws which means sometimes little guys need a spanking too. now they are pretty much focused on efficient collections, however

        2. BTB, like I said, if it is an issue with you, then vote for someone else.

          Maybe it is because I worked in Finance for 35+ years and know national audit companies are not going to sign their name to fraudulent tax returns. After Arthur Andersen actions by a few in that firm caused financial ruin for many partners, changes have occurred where fraud in large firms would be extremely difficult.

          So for me, this issue is not and has never been an issue!

          Now your resource comment. Someone looking for dirt outside normal job does not take from IRS resources, just like dirt dug up in other agencies leaked about Trump.

    2. Trumps hiding his tax returns for his own privacy interests just like i hide mine. Not from the IRS, from prying eyes of mischief makers.

      The IRS doesn’t have a problem with it then neither should you.

      1. No doubt you’ll tell Lindsey Graham the same thing about Jaime Harrison’s tax returns, right Kurtz? Or did you miss that I was pointing out Graham’s hypocrisy, where he asks “What is he hiding?” about Harrison but not about Trump?

      2. BS Kurtz. No one cares about yourtax returns and what it might mean regarding your forthrightness and possible encumbering debt or loans.

        1. everyone has privacy interests and privacy helps protect people from fraud. senior citizens get preyed on a lot based on various forms of tax and identity theft related schemes

          that is way below Trump’s level but one suspects the more the assets the juicier the prize.

          I am not up on the details of this linzy grahm stuff I don’t much like him and won’t waste my time on his petty quarrels

      3. Mr K, right!
        If you are Bunker Buden, you dont fear the press. They look at his, “oh thats nice”…..” hum, maybe I dont look any further here”….
        If your Trump, you know exactly where it goes. It can be squeaky clean and they will comment on a deduction and make it look improoer, if not down right tax fraud in the media. And when people believe the alphabet gibberish and almost down right lies, there is no way to come out looking honest.

        When he agrees to release them, then I will begin believing he is losing mental capacity.

        1. Trump *did* agree to release them.
          He lied.

          2014: “If I decide to run for office, I’ll produce my tax returns, absolutely. And I would love to do that.”
          2015: He again sys that if he runs, “I would release tax returns. … I would do it. … I have no objection to certainly showing tax returns.”
          2016: When asked about releasing his returns, he said “I have big returns, as you know, and I have everything all approved and very beautiful and we’ll be working that over in the next period of time. … you’ll be very satisfied.” Later, he tweeted “In interview I told @AP that my taxes are under routine audit and I would release my tax returns when audit is complete, not after election!” Then he said in a debate “I’m under a routine audit, and it’ll be released, and as soon as the audit is finished it will be released.”

          He’s provided no evidence that he’s under audit. Nothing prevents a person from releasing tax returns while under audit. He also could have released his returns from previous years, presumably no longer under audit even if they were at some point (which, again, he never proved).

          And his promises go back further. For example, at one point he said he’d release his returns when Obama released his long-form birth certificate, “I’d love to give my tax returns.” He didn’t do it. He’s an unrepentant liar.

          1. So again, dont vote for him if this is that important. Johnson lied about Viet Nam. Bush 41 lied when he said he would not raise taxes. Clinton lied when he said he did not have sex with L. 43 lied about WMD’S. Obama lied about keeping your insurance and doctor. I have lived through so many lies they dont worry me. Its not important. It happens daily.

            1. Again: I’d never vote for Trump. He’s a malignant narcissist who is doing tremendous harm to the country. As far as I’m concerned, he’s the worst President in the history of the country. Our discussion has never been about whether I’d vote for him. It’s been about things like whether Lindsey Graham is a hypocrite (he is), whether your suspicion that “they have gone through his retuns with a fine tooth comb (unofficially) and if there was anything in them, the leak would be a flood coming form that office” was warranted (I don’t think it is), etc.

              And Trump’s lies are on a whole different level than any other politician I’ve ever encountered. He says whatever he finds convenient to say in the moment, no matter whether it’s true or false. Here’s a good database of thousands of his false claims, though it’s incomplete, because the reporter tracking it left the Toronto Star: https://projects.thestar.com/donald-trump-fact-check/
              You apparently don’t think lying is important. I do think it’s important. I disapprove of it for Obama, Bush, Clinton, … too. But none of them is a pathological liar like Trump is.

              1. CTHD.. “And Trump’s lies are on a whole different level than any other politician I’ve ever encountered.”

                I do not believe there can be any lie greater than those directly causing the deaths to 282,000 USA and allied deaths in Viet Nam or over 4,700 deaths in Iraq.

                Show me one lie that Trump based a policy decision that was the direct result to deaths.

                So here is NBC 2019 list. Which one ranks with Jihnson or 43?

                1. Why on earth would you suggest that I focus on an NBC list from 2019, when COVID-19 has killed almost 200,000 people in the U.S. in 2020, and created additional health problems and economic hardship for millions, and we’re not at the end of it?

                  Why are you asking me to identify a single lie from Trump and compare it to a combination of actions/statements from Johnson or Bush 43? Make a choice: if you want me to identify a single lie from Trump, then you start by identifying the single lie from Johnson or from Bush 43 that you want to compare my choice to.
                  OR, if you’re instead going to talk about a combination of all of Johnson’s choices in the Vietnam War and all of Bush 43’s choice in the Iraq War, then you should accept all of Trump’s choices in dealing with the pandemic.
                  Up to you which way we go, but I assume that you’ll choose the latter, since you’re talking about cumulative deaths in Vietnam and Iraq, neither of which are the result of a single lie.

                  1. There is no way to debate an issue with you. Bush said Iraq had WMD’s. We went to war. There were no WND’s. Johnson said the communist would take over southeast Asia. We went to war in viet nam. They did not take over SE Asia. So I asked just what has Trump SAID that a decision was based on that caused deaths.

                    And do not say Covid 19 until you can tell me you read the summary I posted and tell me how what the democrats did, how the words out of Fauci’s mouth. Bidens campaign managers mouth, Bidens mouth and Pelosi’s mouth did not contribute to the current situation.They called Trump xenophobic and racist for banning travel into the country!!!!I . Today i read an article about increases again in Massachusetts. People are disregarding governor orders, restaurants were open not following regulations and other regulations were being ignored. People will not follow orders in a free country.

                    This is a free county!! What part of that do you not understand? You can not get over 50% even to wear a mask. And when a governor orders covid postive patients into nursing facilities, fully aware of the risk causing almost 7,000 nursing home deaths in New York, why do you think citizens in high percentages are going to listen to anything a government tells them to do?

                    1. “do not say Covid 19 until you can tell me you read the summary I posted”

                      Again: I’m working my way through it. But I also expect YOU to read the summary that *I* posted. So let’s reconvene tomorrow night after we’ve both read both. You should also read the timeline of Trump’s lies about the coronavirus that I linked to.

                      And again, you say “So I asked just what has Trump SAID,” but I’m not going to compare only [what Trump said] with [what Johnson and 43 said + what they did or didn’t do]. Make it an honest comparison. Neither war was caused by a single statement. They both involved lots of statements and actions, and sometimes their choices not to do something were as significant as the choice to do something.

                  2. They wear masks and submit their pet dogs in North Korea.

                    Needs To Be Committed likes the North Korean adherence to “dog”ma.

                    She’s a good comrade!

                    Women Are Man Enough!

                    Merit Not Gender!

                    Level The Playing Field – Force Actual Competition.

                    Abolish Affirmative Action, Quotas, Welfare, Food Stamps, WIC, TANF, Medicaid, “Fair Housing,” “Non-Discrimination,” etc.

                    Every Man Should Do His Duty.

                    Whose Duty Is It To Make Americans?


                    Let’s Get To Work Ladies!

              2. malignant narcissist — Natacha said this about a thousand times. Are you natacha? I thought so before. it’s ok to admit it.

                1. No. LOL that you think two people using the same phrase — a phrase used by hundreds of thousands of others — means they’re the same person. No doubt you also think all of the people using “libtard” are just one person.

                  There’s even a new documentary out with psychiatrists and others discussing Trump’s malignant narcissism, called Unfit.

                  1. There are also psychiatrists–one at Yale, I think–who are diagnosing President Trump from afar.

                    I suspect you know that is unethical. Sort of like prescribing medication for patient’s you haven’t personally interacted with.

                    As for the other, Kurtz, has recognized that you and Natcha share similar behaviors on this site. That isn’t flattering by the way.

                    1. Psychiatrists have a greater ability to observe Trump — from watching his public behavior — than they ever have with a typical patient. Some mental health professionals think it’s unethical; others don’t. Some specifically point out their Duty to Warn.

                      And yes, I know of the book “The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President,” though I haven’t read it.

                    2. Dude, you support Trump. You have no standing to discuss ethics.

                      BTW, maybe work out your problem with women before you post here. It’s embarrassing.

  6. Why the surprise with Facebook’s coddling of Antifa? Facebook continues to promote Penn State’s (the Sanctuary City for Pedophiles) trafficking in the child sex trade.

  7. Facebook and companies like it have become a threat to our democracy, this includes Amazon. It is difficult to deny that in our modern world many large companies already have more power than most nations and their power continues to grow at an alarming rate. In the past, it was large oil conglomerates that held the power but today much of it has shifted to technology companies.

    Knowledge is power and this means is not just about large conglomerates that produce products or energy but extends into how internet companies, in particular, have placed themselves in the position where they control the communication networks collecting and storing data on all of us putting them in a position to manipulate us in every way. The article below explores where this may lead.


    1. Thou Shalt Not Covet.

      Not only are your positions unconstitutional, they constitute sin.

      Congress has no power to claim or exercise dominion over private property – which by definition, in case you missed it, is not public.

      Congress has no power to regulate anything other than money, commerce and land and naval Forces.

      You do support the Constitution, right, comrade?

      You’re free, go pursue happiness – make your own company; your own success.

      1. Hmmm. So I guess in your opinion all monopolies are okay and there should never be any antitrust measures?

        I do agree with your comment about Congress and therefore, it seems that its exempting these tech monopolies from liability is something that should never have been done and should be immediately lifted.

  8. “Assange prosecution would put journalists around the world at risk”

    Trevor Timm, co-founder of the Freedom of the Press Foundation, tells a court that if the US prosecutes WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, every reporter who receives a secret document will be criminalised”

    By Bill Goodwin, Computer Weekly

    Published: 10 Sep 2020 9:30


    1. Anon — I have had the same thought for awhile. I can’t see any significant difference between Assange and Ellsberg other than that the Clintons and deep state want to destroy him. Trump should pardon.

  9. . . hardly surprising. Zuckerberg can barely stand up, his leaning so far to the Left. Would Obama have been re-elected in 2012 w/o Zuck’s multi-million dollars worth of free personal data gleaned from Facebook accounts? . . . maybe

  10. We are not responsible for what we are doing. Our mothers made us what we is. So it’s up against the wall redneck Berliners….

  11. Young — Elizabeth Warren *is* genetically a small fraction Indigenee, i.e., so-called American Indian.

    1. Yes, she is, but not as much as I am and I would think it disgraceful to make the claims she did.

        1. David, You know she did more than ‘just’ pass on what her mother told her. She filled in sections and checked blocks that let her claim benefits intended for people of color who presumably had disadvantages because they actually had color rather than looking like a typical Beacon Hill pasty-faced WASP.

          If she looked like Sacagawea instead of Cotton Mather’s wife I wouldn’t complain, but she doesn’t.

          And then, there are those fake and stolen ‘Indian’ recipes. Why do that fraud?

          Rattlesnakes have more morals.

          1. Young, you’ve been misled.

            By the way, I’ve met 3 rattlesnakes, right down there by my boots. Rattlesnakes have fear, not morals.

            1. Misled? You mean the Pow Wow Chow recipes are genuine Indian recipes from her family? Remarkable coincidence that her tribe came up with the same recipes, word for word, as a French chef, don’t you think?

              1. Young, you have let your dislike of Senator Warren turn to prejudice.

                As for Pow-Wow Chow, I have never heard of it. I assume that it is just Made Up by a Faux Neuz source. No French chef did that.

                As for checking forms, I used to check American Indian once the instructions stated to indicate all that apply. I did so based on what my mother told me. However, subsequent research into that branch of the family shows no sign of an Indian bride. So I don’t so designate anymore.

                How about just dropping this?

                1. I can drop it but if you haven’t heard of Warren’s “Pow Wow Chow” book just Google it. No secret. She was cheating. I am surprised how many people have plagiarized. Laurence Tribe, whose book on constitutional law I have, Doris Kearns Goodwin who wrote Team of Rivals, Stephen Ambrose whose book, D Day I liked a lot, Alex Haley who wrote Roots, and, of course, MLK whose graduate thesis was copied so perfectly he even copied errors from the original. I wouldn’t do it and I think you wouldn’t. Not our culture and too proud to stoop to it.

        2. It’s a reasonable wager her mother told her the truth – that her maternal-side grandmother’s family lived in the old Indian Territory ca. 1893. At that time, the population of the Indian Territory was about 180,000. At the time of the 1890 Census 50,000 were on the tribal rolls and the rest were classified as whites, ‘colored’, and ‘claimants’. The estimate issued in the Statistical Abstract published three years later had it that there were 71,000 Indians in the territory, suggesting that the population of whites and ‘colored’ was around 110,000. Most people living in the Indian Territory were not Indians.

          Elizabeth Warren’s maternal-side grandmother was born in Missouri of parents born in Missouri. They’d settled in Arkansas by 1880 and then were to be found in the Indian Territory 13 years later. The whole family is listed as ‘white’ in the 1880 Census returns. Elizabeth Warren’s grandmother died in 1969, when the future law professor was 20 years old. Her grandmother’s father died in 1924, when Elizabeth Warren’s mother was 11 years old. Over the period running from 1910 to 1970, her mother, grandmother, and great-grandfather lived their lives in one of four counties in Oklahoma nestled in a block of territory which was about 300 miles by 60 miles in dimension. The notion that Pauline Herring got the idea in her head that her ancestry was Amerindian and then passed this on to her daughter beggers belief.

    1. These socalled myths are actually pretenses that the ANITIFA usually maintain under the legal guidance of one of their living masterminds Mark Bray who has crafted his essay there and also the “handbook” with two things in mind:



      SPLC showed how these kinds of pretenses can be shredded, over the decades,by their numerous suits including the one against kkk of Robert Shelton.
      The message is a basic one that plantiff lawyers working on hard targets know: Sue the targets enough times, vigorously and eventually you will get the win

      there are all kinds of joint and deriavative forms of liabiity. Take it from the SPLC, they stretched them well and far enough to be used against ANTIFA and their backers

      put this one in the “model complaints” file folder., one day we will see the names of various ANTIFA actions and BLM and their backers in the defendant lines.


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Res ipsa loquitur – The thing itself speaks