Below is my column in The Hill on the Derek Chauvin trial in Minneapolis. Last week, at least one juror was excused after he expressed fear that he or his family could be attacked after a verdict. (Conversely, another juror called the rioting necessary to advance the Black Lives Matter movement). The man explained that his neighbors had to flee the area after the riots following the death of George Floyd. That fear was shared by various jurors. It is not surprising when the courthouse is ringed in fencing and barbed wire and even police stations in the city are bunkered down. There are already protesters outside of the courthouse and a new “autonomous zone” in the city that is being criticized by police groups. Once again, the news coverage is highly siloed and divergent in such coverage with vastly different images emerging from the city as it prepares for possible rioting. However, it is the divergent coverage of the case itself that is my greatest concern.
The voir dire responses highlight the concern over venue in the case and the decision not to shift the trial to a different city. There is clearly a fear among jurors that there might be rioting if there is an acquittal for Chauvin. The voir dire selection also magnifies the concern over how the case has been covered in the media with the omission of critical defense arguments and evidence. I believe that there was a legitimate basis for a trial, but this is a stronger manslaughter than a murder case. The trial will give us a better view of the evidence but the coverage thus far has been dangerously incomplete in my view, as discussed below.
Here is the column:
Criminal trials have become such a predictable flashpoint for violence that cities create virtual fortresses around courthouses before juries are even seated. That is the case with the Minneapolis trial of Derek Chauvin, the first police officer to be tried for the death of George Floyd last spring.
The rioting that can follow a trial’s verdict is driven by deep-seated, long-standing racial problems. However, commentary by politicians and reporters can worsen those tensions, creating misconceptions of the strengths and weaknesses of cases. For example, before any investigation had been completed, Vice President Kamala Harris, then a United States senator, said Chauvin clearly “murdered” Floyd, while others insisted the crime was open and shut.
Trials, however, are based on the evidence and elements of crimes. They are designed to separate the material from the mythological. A good example is the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., in 2014, which provoked days of rioting. The shooting was widely called murder by national figures and commentators. To this day, because of wildly inaccurate media coverage, pundits and protesters still refer to Brown holding up his hands and pleading, “Don’t shoot!” However, the officers involved were never charged despite long, repeated federal and state investigations that found no criminal culpability. Indeed, the Obama Justice Department and other investigations refuted the hands up, don’t shoot claim.
Chauvin’s trial has some of the same problematic elements of incomplete or distorted coverage and commentary. It clearly is much stronger than the Michael Brown case — and one can not overestimate the impact of the videotape of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd’s neck for almost 10 minutes as Floyd pleads “I can’t breathe.” The video is seared into the minds of many, provoking anger and disgust. Admittedly, I view cases from the perspective of a longtime defense attorney, but this one has defense points that are rarely reported but could prove decisive in this trial.
The four officers charged — Chauvin, Thomas Lane, Alexander Kueng, Tou Thao — responded to a call alleging that Floyd passed counterfeit money. The first major defense point was captured on body-camera video as Lane spoke to Floyd, sitting in a parked SUV. When Floyd refused to show his hands, Lane pulled his gun and yelled at Floyd to show his hands. After Floyd replied, “Please don’t shoot me, man,” Lane put away his gun and said, “I’m not shooting you, man.”
Floyd is then seen staggering as he is moved to a police cruiser. He admitted he had been “hooping,” or taking drugs. He then resisted getting into the cruiser, saying he was claustrophobic and couldn’t breathe. Lane is heard offering to sit with him, roll down the windows and turn on the air conditioning. Floyd continued to insist “I cannot breathe.” A struggle then led to Floyd on the ground, with Chauvin kneeling on his neck. As shocking as the video image is, Chauvin is likely to cite Minneapolis police training material that describes such restraint for an uncooperative suspect.
The biggest defense point will come from official autopsy and toxicology reports. The autopsy did not cite restraint as the cause of the death, instead citing “cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained by law enforcement officer(s).” (The family’s autopsy disagrees, citing death by asphyxiation). The preliminary finding of the autopsy “revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease.”
The autopsy states that Floyd had fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system. The level of fentanyl was extremely high, and documents from the autopsy attribute the following statement to Andrew Baker, Hennepin County’s chief medical examiner: “Fentanyl at 11 ng/ml — this is higher than (a) chronic pain patient. If he were found dead at home alone & no other apparent cause, this could be acceptable to call an OD [overdose]. Deaths have been certified w/levels of 3.”
The toxicology report on Floyd’s blood amplifies that point, stating: “In fatalities from fentanyl, blood concentrations are variable and have been reported as low as 3 ng/ml.” Floyd’s blood showed almost four times that level. There is palpable fear that even discussing such countervailing defense issues will lead to accusations of being a racist or an apologist for police brutality. As a result, most of these details are routinely omitted from coverage, or only obliquely referenced.
There is both a legal and a political reason Chauvin is going to trial first: The “aiding and abetting” charges of the other officers are derivative on the Chauvin’s alleged crime of murder or manslaughter. The case against Chauvin is also the strongest and there is ample basis for criminal charges due to his failure to respond to Floyd’s medical crisis. Lane, a new officer, is heard at one point suggesting they move Floyd because he might be experiencing “excited delirium. Chauvin replies: “Just leave him.” Conversely, Lane has a stronger case for acquittal, which likely would inflame passions without a prior conviction of Chauvin.
Past cases also show the danger of pushing for higher-range murder charges, which may satisfy public demands but magnify the impact of acquittals. Such overcharging in the George Zimmerman case, focusing on second-degree murder, reduced the stronger case for manslaughter. Instead of significant time on a lesser charge, Zimmerman’s prosecutors got nothing.
Chauvin’s prosecutors pushed for a second-degree murder charge in addition to manslaughter. But, clearly concerned about the sharp-cliff impact of acquittal, they are urging the trial judge to add a lesser third-degree murder charge. That still requires proving Chauvin was guilty of “perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind.”
If Chauvin is acquitted of murder, many are likely to be unsatisfied by a second-degree manslaughter conviction carrying a presumptive sentence of 41 months to 57 months, rather than a sentence of up to 15 years. The anger is likely to be greater if they were never told of the defense arguments and evidence. Chauvin’s trial shows the same profile as past cases with a mix of heightened charges and heightened expectations in what is a difficult prosecution case. Chauvin could very well be convicted of murder but, if not, the incomplete commentary and coverage will only add to the ensuing unrest.
Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University. You can find his updates online @JonathanTurley.
Minimally, manslaughter. The array of charges thrown at Chauvin is exactly what would’ve happened to Floyd had he lived through the encounter. The OD canard is pure distraction as Floyd was walking and talking until being kneeled on for 8-9 minutes as a gathering crowd vocally added protest to Floyd’s statements he couldn’t breathe. Track record of the militaristic kneeling submission tactic killing people in multiple locations and situations. Chauvin’s track record of overzealousness, and in this case his rebellion toward the crowd response…
Should not be a problem gaining conviction. But will it? Just look at the comments to this post.
Elvis Bug
Elvis Buggery:
Your knowledge of the operative drug is truly underwhelming along with your clumsy mastery of the facts. But I’ll give it to you, you’re consistent.
Hey, no one accuses me of not knowing the world of intoxication. At least no one who isn’t talking out of their butt.
EB
Note how JT only mentions that “a PRELIMINARY finding” does not show physical signs that support asphyxiation or strangulation. What JT leaves out is that the actual report 20 pages long doesn’t mention a lack of physical signs.
Conflating a preliminary finding and parts of the actual report is a disingenuous attempt to frame the argument.
No!!! JT would *never* do that. Shocking.
EB
“does not show physical signs that support asphyxiation or strangulation.”
The official autopsy stated all the findings. The findings didn’t change with the political addendum that followed.If stopped and thought along with read you wouldn’t be writing the first thing that comes to your mind and we wouldn’t have to wonder where you get your crazy ideas.
S. Meyer, you have no idea what the office report says. Nobody has seen it yet. The people who have are noting that it is not part of the full report.
“ A full autopsy report on George Floyd, the man who died after being restrained by Minneapolis police last month, reveals that he was positive for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. The 20-page report also indicates that Floyd had fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system at the time of his death, although the drugs are not listed as the cause.”
In the corrections notes it states, “ The story also incorrectly suggested a preliminary report released Monday said the autopsy “revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” Those words were cited last week but were not part of the report released Monday.”
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/04/869278494/medical-examiners-autopsy-reveals-george-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus
The autopsy report can be viewed by anyone.
Your article, June 4 2020. Wake up Svelaz, It’s march 12 2021.
SM
“the OD canard is pure distraction”
Hey Basketball Bugs. How’s your reading comprehension?
“Fentanyl at 11 ng/ml — this is higher than (a) chronic pain patient. If he were found dead at home alone & no other apparent cause, this could be acceptable to call an OD [overdose]. Deaths have been certified w/levels of 3.”
Walworths, stop proving you’re an idiot. You can walk into any ER in Appalachia tonight and see a moonshine drunk good ole boy literally walking around at .04 alcohol level after getting pulled in on a DWI. In other words past a level that would be clinical death in some people.
Clearly, Chauvin’s defense team wants to speak to morons like yourself and get them on the jury.
EB
Defense autopsies need to be taking with a grain of salt. The coroners autopsy found no evidence of murder. The readily available online, the mainstream media has yet to air the video clip of George Floyd screaming “I can’t breath, I can’t breath” when he was resisting arrest while the police were trying to place him in the backseat of the patrol car, this is BEFORE he was taken to the ground and a knee was placed on the SIDE of his neck, a tactic taught to police during training, apparently so it can be.. you know, actually used in the field when needed. No George Floyd said he was claustrophobic and it appeared he was having a panic attack and not wanting to comply and take a seat in the back of the patrol car. Now, I can relate as I’m claustrophobic and it’s almost like an inventory reaction to do all you can to avoid being put in that situation. That being said, all the drugs in his system certainly had to contribute to his state of mind and panic. The on real problem I have is the police holding him down for almost 10 minutes. That makes little sense. I’d be very interesting in know the officers reasoning behind that.
That autonomous zone should be shut down with extreme prejudice.
Whites should have rioted (aka “protested”) after OJ was acquitted.
Do the very best video portions show the knee pressing down on the neck at the front, at the spot where air or blood would be cut off?
I have not seen that. A knee on the bones next to the neck won’t choke.
If he didn’t choke him you must acquit.
The carotid arteries are outside the bone. It’s that big vein you use to check your heart rate when you put your fingers on the side of your neck. Pressing on that for 10 min can kill.
That’s why wrestlers who put you on a chokehold for 10 sec or less can get someone unconscious.
Svelaz– “That’s why wrestlers who put you on a chokehold for 10 sec or less can get someone unconscious.”
***
Oddly, coming from you, that is true. I have seen it demonstrated.
And Floyd was not unconscious so, obviously, pressure on his carotid–per your own analysis–could not have been a factor.
Young, not every carotid artery is the same. Even a partial restriction along with his conditions can be just as deadly. Add to the fact that George Floyd was full of adrenaline from the fear or panic he was experiencing. He might have been able to remain conscious longer. That’s why you don’t have kids or idiots doing that to just anybody. Wrestlers already have been medically cleared. You don’t know what medical conditions a complete stranger has.
It is outside the spine yes but it is inside the muscular v shaped carotid sheath.
There are two carotid arteries.
A partial restriction of one, is not going to be as deadly as a restriction of both. I suspect this is precisely why they authorize the knee on the neck hold, because it is a neck crank on one side that does not constrict the entire neck thus to cut off blood flow in both carotids.
Sal
Anonymous sal, a partial restriction on one on a healthy adult may not be deadly. George Floyd was not healthy or in top condition. Doing that for 8 min is authorized?
i dont know about the duration. it seems like a long time, it seemed excessive at first blush but i guess we can wait a while and hear the evidence. do you have an open mind about this svelz, or is he convicted in your mind already? Sal
They’re also above where Chauvin’s knee was placed. They’re on the neck, not the back.
I’ve actually seen someone get knocked out from one(1) punch to the carotid. Backfist. It was nasty, but quick.
EB
EB, Austin power’s judo chop is just as effective FYI.
+10
EB
“The carotid arteries are outside the bone. It’s that big vein you use to check your heart rate when you put your fingers on the side of your neck.”
Ignorance that is laughable. The Carotids are arteries not veins. One doesn’t put their fingers on a *vein* to get one’s heart rate.
Read the autopsy report and the microscopic of the brain. What you think exists doesn’t.
S. Meyer, wow you got me. I’m destroyed for all eternity, BWAHAHAH!!
You’re hilarious. Hey when do you move up to 5th grade?
I guess Svelaz you still don’t understand the dozen or two other times I got you in the last couple or responses to you.
SM
In the light of the autopsy report and the related interviews with prosecutors and the FBI, how can the prosecution prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the restraint was the cause of death? If that cannot be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, how can he be convicted of any of the charges?
Daniel: “how can he be convicted of any of the charges?
***
Media lies, government lies, mob terror.
Based on the fact that it took Floyd 9 minutes to die under Chauvin’s knee, it would be hard to say that Chauvin’s actions did not – at the least – substantially contribute to Floyd’s death. And as Floyd kept telling Chauvin that he could not breathe, it would have to be found that Chauvin should have realized that he could well be causing Floyd to die. Consequently, a jury should find that Chauvin’s actions constitue manslaughter, at the least.
Floyd was saying the same about not breathing while he was standing and resisting being put in the police car. Nothing in the autopsy report connected the neck restraint with his death.
Doctors will sometimes look in the face of a patient and ask if they can breathe. If they answer, one way or the other, they can breathe. If they are unable to answer at all it is time to act fast. Floyd was talking and breathing but for drugs and health. Once before he swallowed a lot of drugs when facing arrest and had to be hospitalized.
Relying on the drug issue won’t help Chauvin. It’s a poor excuse.
Floyd may have already started to experience a breathing issue before being taken to the ground. That still doesn’t excuse the officer from ignoring the pleas. Being a police officer it’s his responsibility to be aware and knowledgeable about the people he interacts with. Chauvin didn’t care. He was willfully negligent.
That still doesn’t excuse the officer from ignoring the pleas. Being a police officer it’s his responsibility to be aware and knowledgeable about the people he interacts with.
You’re confusing the duty of police officers to Serve and Protect with that of doctors to Do No Harm.. It’s a fine line law enforcement has to walk. A doctor would respond to Floyd’s pleas as a medical crisis. A police officer has to weigh an entirely different set of circumstances and potential outcomes other than life or death. Chauvin could argue that he was fully aware and knowledgeable of the person he was interacting with and thus followed approved procedures by ignoring the pleas.
Chauvin didn’t care. He was willfully negligent.
Didn’t care about Floyd’s life? You’ll have to prove that. Especially given the fact his duty was to care about many other things other than the pleas of a suspect. Willfully negligent? Again, you’d have to prove that. He is more than likely to argue he was willfully cognizant of the chaos around the situation and was following approved procedures. Remember, Floyd was the suspect in a crime, he was the one resisting arrest, he was the one that had high levels of fentanyl in his body, he was the one with underlying medical issues. While the outcome was tragic, it was absolutely a series of events initiated by Floyd, not Chauvin.
Olly your argument is flawed for a couple of reasons. First. A doctor has only one encompassing dictate to cause no harm and render aid. Police officers have a more to contend with and are responsible for the wellbeing of the person under their custody.
The officer already had Floyd in handcuffs and on his stomach. His safety or that of any bystander was not in question. Everyone around him was telling him he couldn’t breathe. People literally saw him struggling. The officer didn’t care. He was willfully negligent under legal definition.
The procedure is for a person who is constantly resisting. Floyd wasn’t once he was on the ground. Keeping him under his knee for that length of time was not necessary. All he had do do was roll him over on his back.
Chauvin, being the professionally trained person has the responsibility to recognize the situation. He didn’t. He deliberately ignored everyone including the other officers. That’s willful negligence.
Police officers have a more to contend with and are responsible for the wellbeing of the person under their custody.
Make up your mind. If the police officer has more to contend with, then why did you describe his duties exactly as that of the doctor? The rest of your emotional rant is rejected. Unless you’ve been trained (I have) in security force techniques, you have no idea of the various ways a restrained suspect still poses a threat to him/herself and others. But hey, keep pretending you are a mind-reading and law enforcement expert.
Olly, you’re not comprehending. Chauvin already had Floyd under control. Claiming he was concerned for the safety of the public is a poor excuse when the person is in handcuffs and on his stomach. Anybody in that position poses no threat. They can’t do anything, much less get up on their own.
A doctor doesn’t have to restrain a patient by putting his knee on his neck for 8 min while his arms are restrained behind his back. A doctor would asses the condition of the person he’s dealing with not ignore it because of safety.
So tell me mr security experts how can a person handcuffed with his hands behind his back and on his stomach threaten the officer or the crowd around him? Enlighten us, please.
“Everyone around him was telling him he couldn’t breathe.”
This is how Svelaz thinks. Everyone tells him what to think and he does.
The autopsy shows no injuries caused by the police that would have killed Floyd. The coroner said that if Floyd had died at home no one would have looked further because it was clearly not a murder and would be written up as a drug overdose.
S. Meyer, sorry to spoil your attempt at seeming to be smart, but video evidence of the crowd does show people telling the officers he couldn’t breath. Chauvin’s own fellow officers were telling him as well.
Here’s a distinction you fail to grasp. Pressure on the neck will not show injury. Visible injury is not required to be a cause of death.
Furthermore stating that if Floyd died at home nobody would have looked further because it was clearly not a murder doesn’t change the fact that Floyd DIDN’T die at home. He died under a police officer’s knee on his neck.
Clearly an officer with his knee on his neck for eight minutes while pleading for his life is not murder either? Riiiight.
Did you ever function as a lifeguard, EMT, medic or physician. When they are in the midst of a serious problem? people are always yelling out things to do.The one right next to the patient is the one that likely knows the most unless one enters the picture who has superior medical knowledge.
You have so little knowledge on almost everything that it is hard to believe you are an adult.
SM
Yes, willfully negligent. He was asked by two different bystanders (one of whom self-identified as an off-duty first responder) to check Floyd’s pulse, and he refused to do it. They made no effort to resuscitate him.
The restraint can be the cause of death because absent the restraint (knee on the neck) Floyd wouldn’t have had a heart attack. The fact that Floyd was already in panic from being in his position AND handcuffed with a knee on the neck could have triggered a heart attack. Then there’s the problem of the length of time the officer had him in that position. I doubt any police cadet endured 10 min with a knee on the neck on hard pavement during training. Training is often done in gyms with pads on the floor. If they want realistic training cadets should be subject to the very same conditions like being taken down on pavement, grass, mud, etc. knowing the differences on his such restraints feel like would make them more aware of when to stop or when not to do it.
Unfortunately police training consists mostly of mindless execution of procedure without real consideration to the situation at hand. They are not trained to think, just act to procedures.
It’s a similar situation with the woman who got shot in the Capitol. Many claim she was murdered. The officer was following procedure just as he was trained.
“with the woman who got shot in the Capitol. Many claim she was murdered. The officer was following procedure just as he was trained.”
***
If she had been a black BLM activist the Capitol would have been demolished to a chorus of cheers from the media.
BLM activists didn’t break the windows into the Speaker’s Lobby. Trump supporters did that.
Video is coming out along with witness statements– it was mostly by Antifa and BLM.
Young, you’re confused. The proud boys group specifically dressed as Antifa members so they could blend in, unfortunately they didn’t realize that Antifa was not at the rally.
“dressed as Antifa members so they could blend in,”
***
Nobody dresses as Antifa to blend in with Trump supporters.
Are you imbibing a little of Floyd’s favorite snack? Several of us have noticed you seem a little more divorced from reality than usual today.
Truly entertaining seeing someone leaning on the ‘it was Antifa’ fever dream talking of someone else being “divorced from reality.” Impossible to make this up.
EB
EB, especially when it’s so obvious and hilariously embarrassing.
Young, “ Nobody dresses as Antifa to blend in with Trump supporters.”
The proud boys did.
“ Far-right group Proud Boys claim they will attend January 6 DC rally ‘incognito’ and wear all-black to blend in with antifa protesters”
“ The Proud Boys intend to take further steps to blend in with other protesters.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/proud-boys-attend-january-6-dc-rally-incognito-all-black-2021-1%3famp
Yes, I saw that. Perhaps you missed that a leader of the proud boys was an FBI informant. Probably more than one of them was. Remember the Hutaree Militia? At least some of the proud boys photos at the disturbance show no effort to disguise as Antifa. At least one was wearing a shirt that said Proud Boys– Some disguise.
Something similar happened in Portland. Mayor Wheeler said the destruction was caused by Proud Boys but those arrested had already been identified as Antifa and then released by the leftist prosecutor. The real Proud Boys were generally prosecuted.
A lot of effort is going on to claim that only Trump supporters rioted. Not so.
People should ask themselves when has there been a major Trump rally where Antifa and BLM didn’t show up? And we are supposed to believe they skipped this one?
Young, “ Yes, I saw that. Perhaps you missed that a leader of the proud boys was an FBI informant.”
So you admit that your claim, “nobody dresses as Antifa to blend in with protesters” is false.
Yeah, their leader, regardless of being an informant still convinced the group to dress as Antifa. A lot of them did. The funniest part is Antifa wasn’t there.
Whitmer case falling apart; feds indict their own informant/ provocateur
https://www.unz.com/estriker/feds-indict-own-informant-as-gretchen-whitmer-kidnapping-case-unravels/
No, it wasn’t.
Here are names of over 200 people arrested –
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases
Many are known Trump supporters. AFAIK, one — John Sullivan — is known not to be a Trump supporter; however, he also doesn’t identify himself as being either Antifa or BLM.
I dispute that Ashlii the homicide victim of the Capitol Police, was putting her killer into any fear of for his life or grave bodily harm. There was a strong and secure barrier and they had broke a little hole in the window high up and she was trying to crawl through it. She was unarmed. He could have just shoved her head with his hand and kept her out easily.
Secondly, she was committing trespass. Normally we don’t want police to shoot and kill trespassers, rather, just arrest them. Isnt that right? Or are you on record that we should shoot tresspassers? Not very liberal of you Svelz.
Thirdly if he shot, why did the other cop not shoot? No Svelz, it was not procedure. It was an over reaction at best, at worst, intentional unlawful homicide.
We all understand justice is not blind here. We understand why that cop was not charged and Chauvin and company were. The power of the mob to intimidate is why.
Sal Sar.
I would add that the media have carefully concealed the fact that Ashli’s killer was a black police officer. (close analysis of video will show this– the Wapo video in particular) But the white police officer who stood alongside, also aiming his gun, did not fire on her. This has a racial dynamic that is prone to anger the white population and so the mass media has suppressed it.
But the question is, why does the mass media never fear to anger the black population? Why do they ever play up the racial identity of police who kill black offenders or suspects?
The answer is obvious. Because the mass media wants to enflame the black population against the white, because it wants to anger them and incite them.
Why would the blessed mass media want such a thing? Especially considering, most of the reporters, and nearly all the executives, have white skin?
Here we get back to the billionaires and their agenda. Their agenda is to unbalance everyone, divide and atomize everyone, and thus keep themselves free and unharmed from hundreds of millions of people who have every good reason to unite against the billionaires and expropriate them and try them for their crimes against society.
Because the majority population is still white, they will tend to incite forces against white people more often. if one day whites become a big minority, and some other ethnic group becomes dominant, then the reporting will work vice versa. So we can see that they like to talk about how the CCP abuses the Uighurs in China, because, they are trying to keep the Chinese government off balance. Now that is not to say the Uighurs are not abused– yes they are! But the question is why does the mass media report on it
Billionaires are masters of the old Latin strategy: divide et impera
Sal Sar
Sal sar, the race of the Capitol officer who shot Ashli is irrelevant. It was not a one on one interaction. Ashli chose to be participate in a riot. She got shot because police officers were protecting lawmakers. It’s their job. One officer firing his gun does not require others to do the same. Their job is not to indiscriminately shoot at any one trying to force their way in, but they ARE authorized to shoot if they deem the threat valid. He deemed it a threat and correctly acted according to the threat.
Anonymous sal sar, “ There was a strong and secure barrier and they had broke a little hole in the window high up and she was trying to crawl through it.”
You forget, she was trespassing on government property where lawmakers were being threatened. A strong secure barrier ceased to be secure the second the window was breached. A hole is not “small” if it’s big enough to for someone to crawl thru.
Just like in any military installation. Trying to force your way into a protected government perimeter deadly force is authorized.
Just because one cop shoots doesn’t mean another has to. One shot is usually enough to get the attention of the crowd trying to force their way in that they will be shot if they continue. Their job is to protect the lawmakers who were still in the room. Like it’s always said about those situations. They had to make a split second decision, right?
No liberal says you shouldn’t shoot trespassers, especially those who are forcing their way into a room and chanting threats. That woman unfortunately paid the price for participating in the rioting. She wasn’t murdered. She was just shot because others were committing violence and attacking officers.
If we applied Svelaz logic to the Antifa that besieged the federal courthouse in Portland for weeks, then the feds could have just mowed them all down with machine guns. They were a lot more nasty than that lady. They were shooting incendiaries at the building and the marshals and a whole lot more.
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/16/acting-secretary-wolf-condemns-rampant-long-lasting-violence-portland
We get your logic Svelaz: cops shoot Republican, good! Shoot Democrat, bad. That’s what it will look like more and more folks. Very sad for the Republic.
Anonymous SM, no. You have comprehension problems.
Antifa members were vandalizing federal buildings, EMPTY federal buildings. Protecting property vs. protecting VIPs inside a building under siege are two very different things.
You don’t kill anyone for damaging buildings. Buildings can be repaired. People being harmed or threatened when the mob is constantly chanting death threats presents a more valid reason to use deadly force. Obviously that didn’t factor into your simple thought process.
She was trying to get into the Speaker’s Lobby while there were still Representatives on the floor of the House. That officer’s job was to protect the members of Congress and their staff who were still on the floor.
Peculiar that the Defund-The-Police mob is defending the shooting of an unarmed woman who was a Republican.
No objections from them when Antifa and BLM in Seattle and Portland sealed doors to occupied police buildings and set them on fire, apparently intending to burn them alive.
Young, you’re hilarious. Whining victimhood for all its ignorant glory.
You say Antifa members are criminals because they are vandalizing abs settings things on fire. But this “innocent” woman who joined in on a riot where lawmakers were getting death threats and vandalizing property ended up getting shot is a…victim? She got shot because she was an idiot. She’s a victim of her own stupidity. It’s as simple as that. The attempts to make her into this “innocent victim” add just downright hilarious.
Have you seen how she could screech on her youtube videos??? She goes on to the list of those who got shot while performing a home invasion.
EB
“Floyd wouldn’t have had a heart attack. “
More demonstration by Svelaz that he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Where did the coroner say that Floyd had a heart attack?
“Unfortunately police training consists mostly of mindless execution of procedure without real consideration to the situation at hand. They are not trained to think, just act to procedures.”
What an insult by an ignorant poster talking about people that are trained and many very well trained.
“It’s a similar situation with the woman who got shot in the Capitol. Many claim she was murdered. The officer was following procedure just as he was trained.”
Are officers trained to shoot at people known not to have any weapon? What type of craziness are you purveying?
S. Meyer, “ More demonstration by Svelaz that he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Where did the coroner say that Floyd had a heart attack?”
Here ya go, “ The autopsy report from Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Office concludes the cause of death was “cardiac arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/04/869278494/medical-examiners-autopsy-reveals-george-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus
Police officers are trained to make “split second decisions”. I’m order for that to happen they are trained to the point that they don’t have to think. They are trained to believe that if they just follow procedure they don’t have to worry about the consequences.
When people die their hearts stop. Maybe you are not aware of that.
SM
Daniel, the simplest explanation and the one that is very hard to ignore is the duration. 8 minutes is a long time. Having your knee on someone’s neck for 8 full minutes while they are telling you they can’t breathe has no real defense. If you want to see just his excruciatingly long that is. Set a microwave oven to heat a meal for 8 min and see how long it really takes to wait. Now imagine at the same time someone telling you they can’t breathe during the entire time you wait. I’m sure that after a minute of pleading you stopped caring. Your knee is still on the neck of an unconscious person while you wait for the microwave to finish.
I doubt any police training lets you stay on someone’s neck for that long on a nice comfortable gym mat.
I’m not a lawyer (dad, uncle, cousin, sister: lawyers all). Dad said, “You do not go to court for justice; you go for a decision.”
Yes, it looks bad to see someone saying “I can’t breathe” with a knee on his neck. (Does a policeman need to justify what he is doing to any bystander? It would have taken a while to explain that he wouldn’t stay in the car because of breathing problems so he’s on the ground.) The hold used was the result of training and was known to not cause breathing problems. There is evidence that the hold did not lead to strangulation. There is reasonable doubt as to the cause of death. Almost 4 times the level of fentanyl needed to kill regardless of what anyone did.
Are there any other pertinent facts at issue?
“ The hold used was the result of training and was known to not cause breathing problems. ”
That’s an over generalization. Training is always conducted under very controlled conditions and assumes the person has no underlying health conditions. The soft gym mats and relatively safe environment in which the training occurs doesn’t involve people yelling at you or the person pleading to breathe. The whole point of having those types of holds is to subdue a violent thrashing individual. George Floyd was already in handcuffs and prone. There was absolutely no reason why a knee to the neck was necessary.
No training will include denying EMT’s access to the individual who clearly is already subdued. The length of time was intentional. It was aggression and disregard for life.
Read this yesterday on The HIll and it’s a very good article. I do doubt we’ll see the violence predicted after the full or partial acquittals as Trump is now out of office and the leftist planned “impromptu” outrage isn’t needed by the globalists any longer. Plus who wants to make Seniley Joe look any worse.
Trump being out of office will have ZERO effect!! Mob will act out. Because our ” woke” leaders have told them it is ok to do so.
No, the mob heels to its masters — Seniley Joe and Ghost Kamala.
The claim of systemic racism unleashed on this country has become an out of control pandemic all it’s own. Globalists may have started it, but it has quickly spread out of their control. It’s infected our military, colleges, universities, K-12, small business, corporations, everywhere. There is no Operation Warp Speed initiative on the horizon for this. We are closer to total anarchy than peace. And given the actions of this administration and congress, we are more likely to see martial law before we see anything else.
Just read this piece in The Federalist and it’s spot on.
No, the imperious but concerned souls behind our government’s expansion tell us. Our success is a greater reason to expand their authority. Their lust to control our work and workouts, even in post-pandemic America, has grown with their power. Our plagues, it turns out, are many, requiring not only freedom from the virus but from hate, financial insecurity, and racist mathematics… The pace of this unraveling is unprecedented. Scared people, threatened with chaos, do as they are told. They support putting up fences around the Capitol, censoring speech, banning children from attending schools, socialized medicine, gun control, and other assaults on freedom. When our long-held beliefs and traditions are characterized as radical, fringe ideas, what will hold us together with other than the strength of the collectivist state?
https://thefederalist.com/2021/03/12/its-not-insurrectionists-destroying-our-norms-its-the-new-authoritarian-left/
There will be no justice in this case for Chauvin, who will get the max time for the max time, and the Feds will hit him with hate crime charges to keep him behind bars for the rest of his life. What we get is the flip-side of jury nullification to placate the mob.
The injustice for the public comes in the form of the message that crimes by favoured or protected groups cannot or will not be effectively policed. The treatment of AntiFA & BLM crimes in Oregon, as well as the prosecution of the two gun-toters in St. Louis suggests that not only are the public on their own regardless of their political persuasion, but they are also not allowed to effectively protect themselves from favoured or protected groups
Cato, I will add another injustice to your comment by reminding you of the two LAWYERS in NY who were caught red handed tossing Molotov cocktails into police vehicles. Well after many, many months word leaked that they got a deal and they are pleading out. Of course we have not heard what said deal is and so they will get the usual slap on the wrist and go quietly back to their firms with their bar ticket intact.
So tossing weapons of war at police is not an INSURECTION?
He’ll be found not guilty. As he probably should.
The rioting that can follow a trial’s verdict is driven by commentary by politicians and reporters creating misconceptions of deep-seated, long-standing racial problems.
That is a more accurate statement. I grew up in Minneapolis, before Democrats turned it into Mogadishu. What city would be safe with a change of venue from the Democrat’s traveling band of brown shirts aching for violence and mayhem? What city is safe from rioting, looting, arson, murder when these anarchists have the full support of the sitting V.P. and much of the Democratic party? At least in Black Hawk Down, the Somali’s weren’t aided and abetted by the Democratic party.
Professor Turley, you are showing conspicuous gallantry to report the full facts of this case. That is no exaggeration.
As for the media, subscription journalism has become an ugly and cowardly enterprise.
The same can be said for woke academe. Weaponizing foolish, young narcissists so Professor Clueless Snob can hide in his ivory bunker and enjoy the chaos.
Diogenes– Yes, Professor Turley is showing courage in reporting the truth as near as it can be determined while it unfolds.
A few other members of the legal profession are proving bright Pole Stars in these times. I would add the lawyers posting at powerlineblog.com and ProfessorJacobson.and attorney Branca at legalinsurrection.com.
And then there are those of Atticus Finch Courage standing up and fighting while the government and mobs are howling threats of harm and destruction: the defense lawyers in the Duke Lacrosse case, Trayvon Martin shooting, and now Chauvin who is being defended it appears by one man.
We are fortunate we have such people still in this country. They remind us it is still worth standing up for.
I should not omit Sydney Powell in the Flynn case.
I’ve noticed the same thing, Young. Our moral leaders may be accumulating. And not just attorneys, but also some prominent journalists and academicians. Let’s hope they accumulate faster than the bad guys. Mob rule stops at the border… or it starts at the border.
And inciting the mob are race-hucksters such as Floyd family attorney, Ben Crump:
“This [trial] will be a referendum on whether police are held accountable for killing Black people in America in 2021.”
In America, the purpose of a trial is to determine whether an *individual* is guilty of the crime(s) charged. Only a tribalist believes in “trial by public” or in sacrificing the defendant to appease the blood-lust of a mob.
If Chauvin is found not guilty, and the barbarians rampage, scum like Crump will be partly responsible for the mayhem.
So if some black guy is banging your head into the sidewalk you’re supposed to let him render you disabled or dead or risk a manslaughter charge?
Curri – I agree. The Trayvon Martin prosecutors never deserved a conviction, but I believe at least one of them deserved bar discipline.
Top indictment defiantly overcharged. This was done by antifa fan Ellison to placate the woke left. Will have the same outcome as Zimmerman and Freddy Gray. I am tempted to say that the overcharging is not only to placate but to get a not guilty to prompt more rioting. But no need for that conspiracy theory. There will arson , looting, property damage effecting totally innocent people regardless of the verdict. Including my prediction, hung jury. Would love to own a business that sells plywood in Minneapolis now. The really sick part is why this discussion of rioting is even happening. Arson , looting and property damage not to mention attacks on law enforcement are all crimes. If those crimes had been dealt with appropriately this past summer the the in evitable rioting would be minimal. And no, it was not ok what happened in D.C. on Jan. 6th. Because that happened by a handful of Trump supporters it does not give a get out of jail free card to the left to commit crimes ( rioting) for perpetuity. How about we just judge every event on it’s own merits? Put the totally unproductive and juvenile whataboutism to bed forever. And to those on the left, please do not ask everyone with an I.Q. over room temperature to believe that the inevitable rioting is being done by white supremacists ok?
Paul, I will only add that there will be rioting whatever the verdict is. Please note the riots that occur these days after a local team WINS a championship. If Chauvin gets acquitted the store will burn, if he gets manslaughter the stores will burn and if he gets murder 2 the stores will burn.
My point exactly. Don’t understand the rioting logic after a sports win. But maybe because I am not a left wing insane individual. I am sure there is a ” woke” rational for rioting after a sports win. Even though those riots pre date Trump I am sure he is to blame in some way. That and of course the Left’s excuse for every deviant behavior regardless of facts, racism!
Dope killed George Floyd….Here’s the problem as JT posted:
Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease.”
The autopsy states that Floyd had fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system. The level of fentanyl was extremely high, and documents from the autopsy attribute the following statement to Andrew Baker, Hennepin County’s chief medical examiner: “Fentanyl at 11 ng/ml — this is higher than (a) chronic pain patient. If he were found dead at home alone & no other apparent cause, this could be acceptable to call an OD [overdose]. Deaths have been certified w/levels of 3.”
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
At 46, Floyd had three severely narrowed coronary arteries, including one that was 90 percent blocked, autopsies show. His heart was slightly enlarged, probably the result of long-term high blood pressure.
Floyd was a smoker, and he had spent years using street drugs. On that evening, the autopsies reveal, Floyd had a large amount of fentanyl, a small amount of methamphetamine and THC — the active ingredient in marijuana — in his blood.
A life of crime and drug addiction killed George Floyd. We all know that. Officer Chauvin was just the last person to see him alive. The neck restraint is an approved method of controlling a resisting perp and the fact that Chauvin offered him help before the overdose death destroys any claim of malice necessary to the mens rea for the most serious charges. It’s a dead bang loser in normal times but has a faint chance in the racially charged times like today where juries are left to be intimidated by the leftist mob. No worries, the appellate courts can get it right later.
Whether George Floyd had fentanyl, meth or HTC in his system doesn’t negate the fact that the officer continued to ignore his pleas that he couldn’t breathe. The official autopsy report doesn’t cite the chemicals as a cause of death. His pre-existing conditions may have made the situation worse for Floyd, and the continued need for the police officer to keep his knee on his neck was not justified once he was already in custody.
Making excuses for the fact that the officer did put his knee on his neck with the full weight of his body on it is completely besides the point. As a police officer he should have recognized the problem, but he deliberately ignored it. Clearly the officer’s overzealous need to subdue George Floyd was deliberate.
One way to win an argument corrupt prosecutor style is to misstate many facts and conceal others. Essentially everything you said is false.
Young, you’re going to have to prove my statements are false.
Sevvy:\
“Whether George Floyd had fentanyl, meth or HTC in his system doesn’t negate the fact that the officer continued to ignore his pleas that he couldn’t breathe.”
*******************************
Guess you missed the part where Ofcr Chauvin put Geo. Floyd in the back seat of the cruiser, tuned on the air conditioner and asked if he could do anything else for his “breathing” problem. Also you skipped the part where the serial felon resisted confinement, had to be subdued and insured he’d be controlled using approved methods that, of course, do not result in airway obstruction. Oh and we all know career criminals never lie about anything while in police custody to get out of police custody when return to jail is almost certain.
You leftists do live in a world apart.
Mespo– Nice summary!
Young:
I could do this closing argument in my sleep.
Floyd claimed he was claustrophobic and couldn’t get in an SUV but he was in the driver’s seat of a minivan when he was arrested. The man was obviously delusional.
Mespo, “ Also you skipped the part where the serial felon resisted confinement, had to be subdued and insured he’d be controlled using approved methods that, of course, do not result in airway obstruction. ”
Just because a method is approved doesn’t mean it didn’t obstruct his airway. You have no way of knowing that.
Officer Lane, kept asking about Floyd’s inability to breathe. Chauvin didn’t care. Chauvin still had his knee on Floyd after he stopped breathing.
Just because “criminals lie” law enforcement officers are supposed to ignore them even when everyone else around them are telling you that the guy IS having problems. It’s a poor excuse to say because criminals lie every person in custody should be ignored.
The officer did not ignore any pleas that Floyd couldn’t breathe. There was simply nothing he could do to help him breathe.
“But I ask no favors for my sex. I surrender not our claim to equality. All I ask of our brethren is, that they will take their feet from off our necks, and permit us to stand upright …”
—Sarah Grimké, 1792
Chauvin could have taken his knee off Floyd’s neck.
“Chauvin could have taken his knee off Floyd’s neck.”
Next Anonymous will tell us what Patrick Mahomes should have done.
The criminals need new flat screen TV’s and washer/dryers so I’m sure they’re ramping up for a shopping spree.
MSM, WOKE CROWD, BLM, DEM’s? have already found him Guilty. If you don’t do what they want, Guilty with severe punishment, then they are going to riot and destroy and burn?????? No Fair Trial needed. It appears the y are nervous about a jury finding him guilty so they reinstated a dismissed charge, they are hoping to get him one way or the other. Welcome to the WOKE, DEM, BLM, Social Justice era of free trials and democracy. Unfortunately this is going to end badly no matter what.
Its funny to read how those involved in the criminal justice system feel that they should be insulated by the true will of the people. I say set up a hanging tree and let the mob rule.
Mob rule isn’t good for society.
Find jurors who are committed to listening to the evidence with an open mind and accept their judgment peacefully.
Can we apply that “justice” to folks who advocate mob rule, too?
The public wokesters are not happy to get a taste of it: Piers Morgan, Sarah Silverman, Naomi Wolf suddenly see the danger, and, amusingly, academics who fight to get colleagues mobbed are shocked when the mob bangs on the doors of their offices and homes.
Young:
I always like that part in the movie where the monster turns on its creator.
Yeas. That is often the best part. Almost the only thing I am enjoying now with Jacobin monsters ruling the citadel and the streets.