Juror 52: Does Chauvin Have A New Challenge Over Juror Brandon Mitchell?

The conviction of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin was undermined this week after the previously anonymous Juror #52 went public with interviews to discuss his experience on the jury and support the movement to curtail police abuse. The problem was not the public disclosure of his identity (which jurors can elect to do) but what his self-identification triggered on the Internet. A picture soon emerged showing Brandon Mitchell wearing a Black Lives Matter T-shirt with a reference to the death of George Floyd. The image was raised as contradicting his answers in voir dire and raising an appellate question as to juror bias that could be used to challenge the conviction.

The photo trending on social media was originally posted on Facebook in August 2020 and shows Mitchell wearing a hat that says “Black Lives Matter” and a T-shirt that says “BLM” with the words, “Get Your Knee Off Our Necks,” a common reference to the death of Floyd. The photo was posted by his uncle Travis Mitchell with the caption “The next Generation being socially active representing in DC my son Marzell, my nephew Brandon Rene Mitchell, and brotha Maurice Jauntiness Johnson.”

There is, of course, nothing wrong with the photo and it reflected the pride of his uncle when they went to march in Washington to commemorate MLK’s famous 1963 “I have a dream” speech. The march emphasized the campaign against police abuse and obviously many protested the killing of Floyd. Mitchell insists that he did not go to protest the Floyd killing.

The issue is really how Mitchell answered the voir dire questions.  For example, Mitchell answers in the negative to two questions:

“Did you, or someone close to you, participate in any of the demonstrations or marches against police brutality that took place in Minneapolis after George Floyd’s death?” one question read, according to the newspaper.

“Other than what you have already described above, have you, or anyone close to you, participated in protests about police use of force or police brutality?”

On March 15, Mitchell was also asked by the judge on March 15  if he was aware of the Chauvin case and George Floyd. He responded by saying that he’d heard “some basic info about trial dates, etc from the news”, but not the sort of information “that would keep him from serving as an impartial juror.”

I am not sure why the defense could not have located this picture on the Internet, which may raise a collateral issue in any challenge. However, this is still a credible basis for further investigation and possible challenge.

In Irvin v. Dowd, 366 U.S. 717, 722 (1961), the Supreme Court stated “the minimal standards of due process” demand a fair hearing before competent and impartial jurors. See also United States v. Tegzes, 715 F.2d 505, 507 (11th Cir. 1983) (citing Murphy v. Florida, 421 U.S. 794, 799 (1975)(“constitutional standard of fairness requires that the criminally accused have ‘a panel of impartial, indifferent jurors.’”). In cases like Pena-Rodriguez, the Supreme Court has held that statements in the jury room showing racial bias justifies reversal. The line is more blurry on political bias, but few cases involve a juror who previously discussed the defendant and his case.

YouTube Screenshot

The controversy is strikingly similar to discoveries made about Juror 1261 in the trial of Trump associate Roger Stone. I wrote a number of columns about Tomeka Hart who clearly gave false or misleading answers in voir dire.  Hart is a Democratic activist and critic of the Trump administration. She not only participated in undisclosed protests and posted anti-Trump statements on the Internet but specifically discussed the Stone case.

However, District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson engaged in willful blindness to excuse Hart’s conduct and avoid ordering a new trial.  I predicted that the court would dismiss the motion rather than defend the defendant’s right to an unbiased jury. The court simply brushed aside these clear examples of bias.  Jackson wrote:

“The defendant has not shown that the juror lied; nor has he shown that the supposedly disqualifying evidence could not have been found through the exercise of due diligence at the time the jury was selected. Moreover, while the social media communications may suggest that the juror has strong opinions about certain people or issues, they do not reveal that she had an opinion about Roger Stone, which is the opinion that matters . . . To the extent one could consider any of the social media posts to be inconsistent with the juror’s questionnaire, they do not warrant a new trial because they do not meet the legal test for something that has been ‘newly discovered.’ [A] defendant seeking a new trial must establish that the information presented in his motion could not have been discovered earlier through the exercise of due diligence.”

I do agree with Judge Jackson that there is question of whether this information “could …have been discovered earlier through the exercise of due diligence.”  The court notes

“the foreperson’s views were certainly not hidden at the time of jury selection. The juror’s personal affiliation with Democratic politics was set forth in her written answers. She said straight out that she had opinions about the “officials” on the list of people who might be mentioned in the case, and Donald Trump was the most prominent, if not the only, ‘official’ named.”

This was publicly available on social media and the question remains why the defense was not aware of the past expressions of political bias by Hart.  One would have thought that Hart’s political past would have caused greater scrutiny of her past statements but, as I discussed previously, the transcript shows only a brief and matter-of-fact examination.

Jackson’s decision reveals the added burden faced by defendants in expensive, high-profile trials. Judge do not want to go through the cost and trauma of a new trial, particularly with the threat of rioting.  They talk a good game of the guarantee of a fair trial, but when faced with juror bias, they rarely act to defend it in such cases.

It is still not clear the extent of any bias in the case of Mitchell. Some reports indicate that he may have done podcasts on police brutality and the George Floyd case.  That would be particularly serious, though we saw in the Stone trial the lengths that courts will go to avoid the obvious.

The defense will have the same uphill battle in the Chauvin appeal and the question is whether there is anything in addition to to photo. It will also have to be prepared to answer, as in the Stone case, why it did not perform a full Internet search on prospective jurors.

319 thoughts on “Juror 52: Does Chauvin Have A New Challenge Over Juror Brandon Mitchell?”

  1. “Four former Minneapolis police officers are indicted on charges of violating George Floyd’s civil rights.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/07/us/chauvin-george-floyd-civil-rights.

    Excerpt:

    The indictment charges Mr. Chauvin, 45, and other former Minneapolis Police Department officers Tou Thao, 35, J. Alexander Kueng, 27, and Thomas Lane, 38, with willfully depriving Mr. Floyd of his constitutional civil rights during his arrest.

    The indictment alleges that by holding his left knee across Mr. Floyd’s neck and his right knee on his back and arm as he lay on the ground, handcuffed and unresisting, Mr. Chauvin used unconstitutional, unreasonable force that resulted in Mr. Floyd’s death.

    Mr. Thao and Mr. Kueng were charged with willfully failing to stop Mr. Chauvin from using unreasonable force. All four defendants saw Mr. Floyd lying on the ground in need of medical care and willfully failed to aid him, depriving him of his constitutional right not to be deprived of liberty without due process of law, which included Mr. Floyd’s right to be free from an officer’s deliberate indifference to serious medical needs, the indictment said.

    A second indictment also charged Mr. Chauvin with depriving a teenager of his civil rights during a September 2017 encounter in which the former officer is accused of holding the minor by the throat and striking his head multiple times with a flashlight.

    Mr. Chauvin held his knee on the neck and the upper back of the teenager, even after the child lay prone, handcuffed and unresisting, and that resulted in injuries, the indictment said.

    The latest charges are separate from the Justice Department’s ongoing investigation into the Minneapolis Police Department that Attorney General Merrick B. Garland announced on April 21. And they are separate from the state charges against Mr. Thao, Mr. Kueng and Mr. Lane.

    –NY Times

    1. Most of us are aware that Mrit Garland is doing an excellent job of demonstrating why we are fortunate he was never appointed to the supreme court.

      He also sees white supremecists under every bush.

    1. Pretty good.

      I would like to highlight for ATS the Tshirt that the Juror was wearing.

      It was NOT a BLM Tshit.
      It was NOT an MLK Tshirt.

      It was a “Get your Knee off our necks” TShirt featuring Floyd and Chauvin.
      It was inarguably a statement of guilt regarding Chauvin prior to trial.

      You are free to say whatever you want – but you are not entitled to do so and get on a jury.

        1. Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa.

          The Tshirt said “Get your knee off my Neck”. If that is not what you are seeing – you have the wrong Tshirt.
          There was more than one.

          The Floyd Chauvin image was from another Juror #52 post.

          Google is your friend.

          I would also suggest that if this is what has been discovered thus far – there will be more.

          On other legal blogs there has been a discussion of how this procedes.

          It is likely that Juror #52 will have to testify.
          It is probable that other jurors are going to have to testify about his conduct, though I do not completely understand that as jury deliberations are generally not examinable.

          1. “The Floyd Chauvin image was from another Juror #52 post.”

            Until you prove it, it’s just your claim, which I consider worthless, because you make a lot of mistaken claims.

          2. “Google is your friend.”

            That’s irrelevant to the fact that you’re the one who made the claim, so you’re the one who needs to prove it.

            I’ll remind you that you’ve admitted this in the past. Here’s a quote from you: “We establish the truth of claims by evidence. The party making the claim bears the obligation to prove their claim.

            You’re the one claiming “The Floyd Chauvin image was from another Juror #52 post.” You’re the one with an obligation to prove it.

              1. Approximately 120 comments belong to this guy, John Say. That’s almost 38% of the comments and most of his comments are quite long.

                He’s a piece of work, as are a number of the people who hang out on JT’s blog.

        2. Please read what is written on the Tshirt that YOU posted.

          “I suggest that you make an appointment with an ophthalmologist ASAP to get your eyes checked.”

          I further suggest that you might seek to get your morality checked.

          Criminal defendants are entitled to a fair trial, a fair and impartial jury, the presumption of innocence and the benefit of reasonable doubt.

          It is clear you have no interest in giving Chauvin any of these.

          I expect Chauvin to receive ALL of those. I expect EVERY criminal defendant to get ALL of those – whether they are a police officer or a previously convicted Felon.

          Each of those is a MORAL requirement.

          You may not deprive another person of their property, their liberty or their life MORALY without giving them every single one of those benefits.

          “It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.”
          Blackstone.

          I have zero interest in your complaints about slavery, or Jim Crow, or lynchings or whatever more modern instance of injustice you wish to raise, unless you are prepared to give the same rights the same due process, the same presumption of innocence to Chauvin as you are complaining we failed at in the past and you expect in the present.

          I have defended the rights of even obviously guilty defendants to a fair trial – where were you ?

          I have no idea whether Chauvin is a decent person or racist scum. I do know that for MANY reasons he did not get a fair trial, and that he is innocent of the crimes charged.

          If you wish to accuse him of being racist scum – make your case. That is not however a crime. Though I will expect compelling evidence for claims of moral failure.

          If you wish to assert that he is guilty of crimes not charged – present your evidence.

  2. The law is irrelevant in this case. The entire Chauvin trial is a sham. The case is strictly a political one and the law and the facts never mattered. The case is all about the power of the Authoritarian State and its Mob Rule and Leftist Political and Presstitute allies. Chauvin is a political prisoner of the Authoritarian State.

  3. One cannot explain the deaths of so many Black people in the US if I does not admit that White anti-Black racism exists and a significant proportion of Turley Blog commentators are incapable of admitting this. They can recognize Black anti-White racism which does indeed exist but racism on its own does not damage but racism in conjunction with an asymmetric power relationship does. Since European settlement of the Americas the privilege hierarchy has placed Whites in domination over Blacks which means Black anti-White racism is incapable of causing noticeable damage to Whites.
    Most of the things that most people believe about racism are WRONG:-
    BELIEF Racism is rare human behaviour.
    TRUTH No it is not, examination of the minds of the vast majority of members of species homo sapiens sapiens would find racism and if not racism other prejudicial ~isms driven by the same mechanisms of individual and collective psychology. These can be described as SCAPEGOATING beliefs and behaviours. They include:-
    1/ Economic class Prejudice;
    2/ Misogyny, ie hatred of women especially ones who believe they are entitled to the same rights as men;
    3/ Religious prejudice, ie hatred of those who worship the wrong supernatural beings;
    4/ Hatred of the residents of other (EVIL) nations, Russia, China, Venuzuela, any Muslim nation ………;
    5/ Criminals (blue collar and drug criminals) not respectable white collar criminals who righteously embezzle a few billion here or there;
    6/ People with WRONG political beliefs eg The EVIL woke or Trump supporters;

    Most people if accused of harboring one of these ~isms will indignantly deny and their hurt feelings will not be feigned. “I don’t have a INSERT PREJUDICIAL ~ISM HERE bone in my body” they will say. But prejudicial ~isms do not reside in the bones but in the grey and white matter of the brain. Most people who deny a prejudice will think they are telling the truth because they believe that their conscious mind is all of their mind and they are not consciously prejudiced. People sometimes acknowledge that they have an unconscious mind but the underestimate its size and importance. The unconscious is a mere 99.99%+ of the human mind. The conscious mind is a little annex that serves as the minds post office, receiving or sending verbal or written messages from or to other minds. In fact most of our thinking is done by the unconscious. We may think that our conscious minds are doing the work but in fact the unconscious is picking up problem resolution desires from the conscious and working on them in the background. We do not feel tired because of its working it is as if we have a powerful AI working for us powered by an unknown source not from our own resources. Eventually an answer may appear in the conscious.

    Most of the time we think we believe our consciousness is doing it but in fact thoughts are rising up out of the unconscious. Skilled thinkers are using conscious and unconscious minds together like a man with a calculator.
    The unconscious is the source of many problems. Sometimes beliefs especially moral beliefs picked up and installed in the unconscious over a lifetime are silly and cause problem behaviour but if these beliefs never rise to consciousness one cannot examine them to realize how silly they are. For most people prejudicial ~isms do not reside in the conscious mind under the heading “Things and people that I hate” rather they reside in the unconscious under the Rubric “Unarguable beliefs that no sensible person would dispute” aka “common sense.
    Some common sense beliefs are COMMON SENSE but nasty stereotype constituting perjorative beliefs about members of species homo sapiens sapiens who are not human in the sense of being entitled to those rights that politically correct WOKE snowflakes from the latte sipping and chardonnay swilling classes refer to as human rights are also found here. We need terms for these people, I suggest UNPEOPLE, UNTERMENCHEN, DISPOSABLES, TORTURABLES or GOD’S STEPCHILDREN.
    The majority of Whites have such nasty stereotypes of Black people if they don’t know any Blacks, if they know some Blacks who are acquaintances they may allocate them the status of honorary human but of course other whites who do not know them will see them as UNPEOPLE.
    Some actions are controlled by the conscious mind but others performed under stress or fear or where there is a sense of urgency come direct from the unconscious hence police policing Blacks are often acting under the control of anti-Black prejudice. There is no surprise that George Floyd died.
    I believe Chauvin was of the belief that Blacks especially big black males have evil magic powers of superhuman strength. Chauvin was paralysed by fear that if he let Floyd breathe Floyd would use his EVIL MAGIC to kill him and the other 3 police. He believed that as long as Floyd was breathing Floyd was a threat and only stopping him from breathing would render him under control. Considered rationally this thinking is crazy, but because it is hidden in the unconscious it cannot be disputed. There is a term for such beliefs “IMPLICIT RACISM” and only psychological treatment of most Whites including some who are proud of their WOKENESS but especially agents of social control will stop the excessive Black death toll.
    To give you an idea of sillyness in the unconscious I will tell you what I have always believed and still believe about sexual morality. I was brought up a Christian and exposed as a child to the taboo against giving children any information about sex. A taboo is a very strong negative message and I never spoke about sex to my parents my teachers or anyone except a boy up the street. My parents are dead now but I have never explained to them why I avoided girls (and they never asked). I came to the conclusion that the foundational belief of Christianity can be expressed in 3 words and a punctuation mark in capitals and 100 point type “SEX IS SIN!” My father was a Presbyterian minister and I have been at many marriage services that he conducted. When he was reading the bit about “marriage being an honourable state” I always imagined the sounds of sniggering and tittering, “they are so evil that they are getting married to do the sex thing, snigger titter”. I have never approved of marriage considering not much better than rape. In my view Christianity should never have escaped from the 1st century AD if Christians had had the decency to follow their beliefs. Not all the ideas came from the taboo, there were also the public statements of sex obsesses evangelicals and anti-pornography campaigners. I once to my everlasting shame once advocated support for an organization called “the Welfare and Decency League”. In the first or second year high school Ion the way home from school I had a reverse Pauline conversion. It was a beautiful spring day and I was walking up a flight of steps through the bush. On one step I was admiring the beauty of God’s handiwork and on the next I decided that the idea of God was useless as it explained nothing, if God could exist without something creating him/her/it then so could the universe, but this did not free me from my Christian beliefs. Beliefs are locked in to emotions not rationality.
    It is only in the last 4 years that I have uncovered this toxic belief but I choose not to change it, it is far too late.
    I am as attracted to female beauty as any male but would avoid or in fact ignore or act hostile to any girl that attracted me. In 1989 my next door neighbours were a Chinese student and his wife who had Australian permanent residence as a result of the Tiananmen square massacre. The wife’s really cute younger sisters visited for a period of only six months to learn English at one of the private English language colleges that had sprung up like mushrooms at that time to fleece foreign students. Because she was leaving in in six months I did not need to think of her as potential girlfriend so I decided to practice social graces and make friends with her and in two weeks we were living together and were married within 4 months. Love at first sight was a concept that I always had treated with scorn. To my astonishment I found that she actually liked sex, I had always assumed that it was distasteful for women but I found that I was very reluctant to show excessive interested in sex and because my values from that vile religion of the worship of the single God who was in fact 3 a father, a son and a ghost with holes in it that raped a virgin to give rise to the son meant I considered any interest in sex to be excessive, I now recognize that my dysfunctional beliefs made me cruel to my wife.
    There are several different causes of psychological dysfunction, some people have broken brains and nothing much can be done for them. Some people have an imbalance in the sets of chemicals that run the brain and for some of them the correct set of psychiatric drugs can help but some people have toxic ideas in their unconscious mind with which society or dysfunctional families or bad experiences have programmed into them. For some of these cognitive therapy can work if it is available. If psychologists are unavailable for literate people a book by a good psychologist can work. I recommend A New Guide To Rational Living by Albert Ellis.
    It is possible to learn to access crazy ideas from the unconscious and the skill advances with practice. I consider the unconscious as like a turbid pot of simmering soup. With the soup you can see a muted orange which means that with a strainer you can fish out a carrot. With the unconscious one can get a feeling that an important idea is almost in reach a series of probings of the unconscious with questions as to “is it like this” or “is it like that” be may haul it closer to the surface. Writing posts on blogs, letters to newspapers or a diary can all help.
    I consider that two groups of people need pshiciatric or cognitive therapy: –
    1/ Government agents who have authoritarian power;
    2/ All members of the criminal underclass.

    Racism is not the same as EVIL. If people have racist ideas in their unconscious and these are shown to them they may get less racist. If members of the criminal underclass become aware of the unconscious beliefs that make them angry or react negatively to the presence of police or act out or commit crime they may do it less. Enviromental pollution can also cause violence and crime. One reason for the decrease in blue collar crime over 4 decades is the removal of lead from petrol. Lead from car fumes in dense inner city areas damaged brains impairing thinking and impulse control. Poor thinking and impulse control lead to poor decisions. Psychiatric or cognitive therapy for police and the underclass rather than prison may work better.

    1. After reading your comments. I will focus on this. “One cannot explain the deaths of so many Black people in the US if I does not admit that White anti-Black racism exists”. Ok I assume you are talking about I and other Blacks being killed by police. From 2017 thru 2020 less than 1000 of us were killed by police nationwide. We killed far more of each other EVERY year than the cops did in all 4 of those years. There are 44 million of us here what percentage of 44 million is 1000 ?? There are easily more than one million times a year one of us deals with a cop. Almost All of us know someone that has been stopped by police, but almost none of us personally know Anyone that has been beaten, shot, killed, or mistreated by the police. Do the math. Don’t believe people who don’t care about Black lives unless they can be exploited for political gain or financial enrichment.

      1. You noted that 100 blacks were killed by police in 4 years. How many of those blacks were killed by WHITE police ?
        Or are we presuming that all police – black white or hispanic are racist ?

        I have no doubt that racism exists in policing. I know many police officers – they – like all people beleif many stupid things – some of them may beleive stupid things about race.

        But what is the impact of that on policing ?

        What is the goal today ?

        BLM has just succeeded in putting its symbolic white racist police trophy up on the wall.

        Where do we go forward from here ?

        I have ZERO problems with communities deciding what their own policing should be.

        So what is it that poor minoritiy communities in this country want ?

        Do they want safe streets ? Do they want lower crime, less violence ?

        And how do we get those ?

        Is it possible to have both less agressive policing an lower violent crime in these communities ?

        And WHY are these NATIONAL issues ?

        I do not live in Baltimore, Minneapolis, Chicago.
        Most of the crime in the US takes place within small portions of the population.
        It is not those of us who live in well policed low crime neighborhoods that should have a voice in the crime problem in those few places in the country where that problem looms large.

        It is not the business of the federal government, or even the state, and often not even the city, but the local communities.

        Neither Biden, nor Trump can fix communities where crime is high.

        I have lots of ideas about how to fix problems in these communities – but it is NOT my right to impose those ideas on those communities by force.

        If these communities want less policing – that is their choice. If they want more black police officers – that is their choice.

        To the extent there is a larger voice in these issues, it is that we should be getting rid of laws that intentionally or otherwise harm minorities and harm those in poor and crime ridden communities.

        Zoning laws, employment licensing laws, minimum wage laws, all the myriads of laws that deprive people with less resources of opportunities.

        This is the vast majority of the “regulatory state”

    2. Your screed is not only incredibly verbose, but stupid and wrong in every conceivable way. You know absolutely nothing. Here is a simple fact that you should dwell on. More than 90% of Black homicides are committed by Blacks. If you want to understand why this is so, which is highly doubtful in your case, here is a video to set you straight:

    3. Carl: “One cannot explain the deaths of so many Black people in the US if [one] does not admit that White anti-Black racism exists….”

      ***
      I can. Most murdered black people have been killed by young black men. More than 54% of ALL murders in the country are committed by black men who constitute only about 7% of the total population.

      Anti-white [and anti-Asian and anti-Hispanic] racism by blacks is a bigger problem than anti-black racism in this country and it is getting much worse.

    4. Racism is not rare – it is quite common. We all have preferences, typically decreasing in strength with distance.
      Family, clan, tribe, friends, state, nation, race, creed. We all prefer those we share more in common with – even when what we share is immutable and often meaningless.

      Not only do we have these preferences, but their strength varies.

      In the past we were willing to enslave those of a different race or nation or creed.

      Today the strength of racial preferences in the US is LESS of a factor that myriads of other things inside our control.

      Each of
      Finishing HS,
      getting a job
      Not committing a crime
      Not having children out of wedlock
      Not forming a family until you are able to

      Each alone have a greater impact on your future in the US than your race.

      In fact if you are white and you fail at any or all of these your future will be as dim as if you are black or hispanic.

      Are there exceptions ? Certainly. There are people in this country who remain deeply racist – but they are rare.

      Racism is not rare – but consequential racism is.

    1. Absent medical intervention long before parmedics arrived, Floyd was dead when he took way too much fentanyl.

      There is a legitimate claim that once Floyd was arrested the government because responsible for his heatlh.

      There was with near certainty some positive duty to thwart the drug overdose – given the availability of Narcan.

      But that is not murder. Nor is it Chauvin’s specific duty.

  4. The internet is a big place, and no small defence team can be expected to have searched all of it for each potential juror. In the case you cite the juror openly stated her party allegiance.

  5. the black juror wearing hte BLM tshirt lied in voir dire and he screwed Chauvin.

    Chauvin WILL either get a new trial or win on appeal

    BET ON IT

    1. Did you read the article or just the headline? The same exact thing happened in Roger Stone’s trial. The Judge ignored the juror’s lies and told Stone to pound sand.

      Why shall it be different for Chauvin?

      Further why did not Chauvin himself and/or his legal team uncover Mitchell’s lies pre-trial?

      1. Constance– It sounds like you are okay with jurors lying to get on some trials.

      2. That’s the point being neglected. Chauvin’s defense lawyers not being thorough enough with jury vetting is their problem, not the court’s. Any discovery after the fact still does not negate the facts presented at the trial.

        1. The accepted practice is to gather a juror’s statements under the assumption that an honest citizen will be truthful if he is fit to be a juror. That is the core practice and it existed long before the internet. Is it malpractice in your mind for a lawyer to accept the word of a black man without investigating him? That seems to be your position.

          1. Personally I am of the view that courts should extremely narrow voir dire.

            That prosecutors and defense should be forced to accept 12 randomly selected jurors that are not mentally incompent or directly conflicted.

            Who in their right mind would want a jury that is made of people who know nothing about anything.

            But that is not the system we have. And in the current system it is the duty of the state to assure an impartial jury

        2. “That’s the point being neglected. Chauvin’s defense lawyers not being thorough enough with jury vetting is their problem, not the court’s. Any discovery after the fact still does not negate the facts presented at the trial.”

          False. The constitutional requirement for a fair trial is a duty of the STATE. Not the defendant.

          While the law as it currently exists – which is in error, often places that burden wrongfully on the defense attorney, the courts still reverse convictions and grant mistrails when the defense attorney errors deprived the defendant of a fair trial.

          So no matter how you slice it this is coming back to bite you in the ass.

          This some issue arrose with the Stone trial. Judge Jackson was arguably close to right (according to the law in placing the blame on Stone’s attorney’s. But that only kicked the can down the road. It is highly likely that Stone would have been granted a new trial eventually – had Trump not fully pardoned him. At worst, new attorney’s would have claimed ineffective assistance of counsel. an appeals court would agree, and Stone would have gotten a new trial – several years from now.

          You are looking at the same thing now.

          The Chauvin trial was political theater. I can not predict the future. I do not think Chauvin’s short term prospects are good.
          The entire legal system remains terrified that BLM will burn the country down – with Maxine Waters leading the charge, and Joe Biden quietly egging them on.

          But the time will come when the courts will not feel presured and it is likely they will reverse then.

      3. Defense attorney’s do not have infinite resources – the state does.
        The burden of providing a fair trial constitutionally rests on the state – not the defense.

  6. The fact that there was overwhelming evidence would not, or ever prove to a Trump supporter that the cop would do any harm. Whether it be a cop or con-man president there is no way they would see evidence and facts as factors in any kind of wrongdoing. What would they say if a white jury member wore and was seen wearing a MAGA hat or shirt? And the cop was found not guilty.

    1. Fish, this has nothing to do with anyone’s political affiliation. Why do you Lefty’s always reduce any conversation to who someone supports politically? This is about how our judicial system works. Where party affiliation means nothing.
      It also is NOT about guilt or innocence. It is about giving someone a constitutionally protected fair trial.
      And if the juror committed perjury in order to get on the jury than Chauvin did not get a fair trial.
      AND I THINK HE IS GUILTY AS CHARGED!
      But that’s not the subject .matter athand.

      1. Paul, he did get a fair trial. One cannot prove that a juror lied simply because he stated an opinion long after the trial is over. It was the responsibility of Chauvin’s lawyers to fully vet each juror. If they didn’t do so it is not reason to seek a new trial.

        1. The juror participated in events that asserted Chauvin’s guilt BEFORE sitting as a juror.

          Get you timeline correct.

          You are having a lot of Biden moments

          1. John to Svelaz:: “You are having a lot of Biden moments”.

            ***
            I noticed that, too. I am not sure this Svelaz is the same as the old Svelaz.

          2. “The juror participated in events that asserted Chauvin’s guilt BEFORE sitting as a juror.”

            Once again, John, you are mis-portraying the 8/28/2020 march and rally in DC commemorating the 8/28/1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom where MLK Jr. delivered his historic “I Have a Dream” speech.

            1. The Juror attended a speech at that rally by relatives of Floyd about Chauvin and Floyd’s death.
              He wore a “Get your knee off my neck” Tshirt with Floyd and Chauvin on it.

              “First, Juror 52 said the march was for voter registration, then it was related to MLK Jr and he wanted to see D.C. In the end, it was for George Floyd. While it was on the anniversary of MLK’s ‘I have a dream speech,” it was billed by the National Action Network as the “Commitment March: Get Your Knee Off Our Necks,” and featured speeches by several Floyd siblings.”

              I am not misportraying anything.

              I would further note that the issue is not just bias:

              it is the appearance that a biased juror was alowed on the jury without appropriate scrutiny.

              It is the duty of the state to assure a fair trial.

              If they did not examine Juror #52 sufficiently – even if such scrutiny MIGHT have allowed him seated, What else did they miss ?

              1. “He wore a “Get your knee off my neck” Tshirt with Floyd and Chauvin on it.”

                No, John, his t-shirt had MLK Jr. on it, as I pointed out more than once earlier. Are you astoundingly ignorant, or are you instead lying? I even posted a link to a photo of it this morning.

                “The Juror attended a speech at that rally by relatives of Floyd about Chauvin and Floyd’s death.”

                Prove that he attended that speech. Your personal word is worthless to me.

                You quote some unnamed person, and you expect me to treat their opinion as if it’s a fact. Facts exist, but his opinion isn’t one, just like your and my opinions aren’t facts.

                Once again, I have no interest in discussing with you whether the trial was fair. The SOLE thing I’m discussing here is whether Mitchell lied on his questionnaire and the portrayal of the 8/28/2020 march and rally.

                1. I will visit the opthamologist – When you do. the TShirt YOU linked says “Get your Knee off our neck” – a reference to Floyd and Chauvin.
                  It also says BLM and has an image of MLK.

                  I was incorrect regarding the image on THIS Tshirt, You are STILL ducking the FACT that the text STILL refers to Floyd and Chauvin.

                  There are several other images on the web tied to Juror #52, He Still attended a speech specifically about Floyd and Chauvin.

                  Other legal sources have identified other Jury questions that he did not answer honestly – that do NOT have loopholes.

                  I would note that some questions inquired into BLM event participation. I do not inherently think that is disqualifying.
                  But it must be answered honestly – as the defense has the right to explore whether that extended beyond mere political action to a conflict with respect to this case. Wearing a “Get your knee off our necks” is a clear conflict with this case.

                  There will be further inquiry into Juror #52 and likely other jurors.

                  Do you wish to bet this is the end of what is found ?

                  I am pretty sure that more has already been found. Google is your friend.

                  I do not care – there is already enough for deeper inquiry, and that is all that matters.

                  And AGAIN the requirement of a fair trail falls on GOVERNMENT and ultimately US.

                2. No the SOLE thing you are discussing is NOT whether Juror #52 lied – you have addressed a number of other issues – and that is presuming we can identify which anonymous you are. Regardless, you are posting as anonymous, if you want the benefits of posting under an identity – DO SO.

                  I am not interested in arguments that you make that rest on requiring the rest of us to distinguish your posts from other anonymous posts.

                  If there is confusion – that is your problem. And when you attempt to clear it up – you are not entitled to be beleived.
                  That is one of the prices for posting anonymously.

                  So that you are clear – I do not have a “bug up my ass” about that. I am just not willing to let you slither away from your errors, and lack of credibility because you post as anonymous.

                  You are free to do so. You are not free to demand the rest of us impossibly attempt to sort out various anonymous posts to create an identity for you.

                  So let me make this simple. When you make claims that rely on prior posts – you are not entitled to be taken credibly.
                  When others make claims based on assumptions that rely on prior posts that may be yours – they are entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

                  That is one of the many costs for posting anonymously. There are also benefits – you can not be defamed. You can not be held accountable for your posts. You can not harm the credibility of the person you actually are by your posts.

                  But those benefits come at costs. You can not have one without the other. Not even if you are a leftist who believes many things that are false, and thinks that mere beleif makes them true.

    2. “The fact that there was overwhelming evidence would not, or ever prove to a Trump supporter that the cop would do any harm.”
      Not a Trump supporter. I have never once voted for him. Nor is this about Trump. It is about a specific instance in Mineapolis involving George Floyd and Dereck Chauvin. It is not about police generally. it is not iconic.

      There is one relevant question – did Chauvin murder Floyd.
      And the only answer is NO.

      Is all police conduct justifiable ? Of course not. The officers that pummeled Rodney King acted criminally.
      There are other specific incidents were the actions of the police were varying degrees of wrong.

      “Whether it be a cop or con-man president there is no way they would see evidence and facts as factors in any kind of wrongdoing.”

      Maybe the problem is your inability to present FACTS.

      I have asked you and others on the left repeatedly for examples of actual misconduct.

      I can provide several examples of police misconduct of varying degrees – actual murder by police is quite rare though.

      I am not the one who looks at many different things and always sees the same thing.

      “What would they say if a white jury member wore and was seen wearing a MAGA hat or shirt? And the cop was found not guilty.”
      Nothing. A MAGA hat is not a statement about the police officers guilt or innocence.
      It is a purely political opinion it is NOT specific to a specific criminal allegation.

      While attending a George Floyd rally is unarguably a statement about George Floyd’s death.

      You are making the false equivalence that a general political symbol reflects the same bias as specific acts that reflect a specific position on Chauvin’s guilt.

      In fact even if person wore a “Chauvin is innocent” T-Shirt that would not inherently constitute cause to remove them from a jury.

      The legal presumption is INNOCENCE. Not guilt. You are EXPECTED to start a trial assuming that the defendent is innocent until proven guilty – not the other way around.

      1. “There is one relevant question – did Chauvin murder Floyd.
        And the only answer is NO.”

        So you Say, John Say…, but no matter how many times you Say it, you will still be wrong.

        1. “There is one relevant question – did Chauvin murder Floyd.
          And the only answer is NO.”

          “So you Say, John Say…, but no matter how many times you Say it, you will still be wrong.”

          Nope, the facts are the facts, Chauvin did not suffocate.
          That should have been the end of the prosecution – atleast for murder.

          Unless you are claiming the prosecution claimed that Chauvin killed Floyd some other way ?

          Did Chauvin Stab Floyd ? Did he shoot him ?

          The trial testimony was that Chauvin put Floyd into a sustained stress position that suffocated him.
          While there are strong arguments that claim is impossible – because Floyd could not have been suffocated that way.
          The critical problem is that Floyd did not suffocate.
          Floyd’s blood oxygen levels were normal. Suffocation does not occur with normal blood oxygen. That is a tautology.
          Suffocation is by defintion deprevation of oxygen.

          Regardless I am not saying that Chauvin did not murder Floyd – the FACTS are.

          7B people can all claim the sun did not rise this morning, and yet it did.

      2. John Say, “There is one relevant question – did Chauvin murder Floyd.
        And the only answer is NO.”

        According to the law, he did.

        In Minnesota third-degree murder requires prosecutors to prove that someone caused the death of another “by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life.,

        Chauvin clearly showed disregard for human life. This is why his indifference to Taylor’s pleas were relevant.

        Another Minnesota officer was charged with murder not long ago with third degree murder. ” in 2019, former Minneapolis police officer Mohamed Noor was convicted of third-degree murder in the death of Justine Ruszczyk Damond after she called 911 to report a possible sexual assault in progress in the alley near her house. Noor fatally shot Damond from the passenger seat of a squad car, firing across his partner, who had been driving”

        ““What would they say if a white jury member wore and was seen wearing a MAGA hat or shirt? And the cop was found not guilty.”
        Nothing. A MAGA hat is not a statement about the police officers guilt or innocence.
        It is a purely political opinion it is NOT specific to a specific criminal allegation.”

        Then a juror wearing a BLM shirt is not sign of bias either according to you. A BLM shirt is not a statement about a police officer’s guilt or innocence as well.

        “In fact even if person wore a “Chauvin is innocent” T-Shirt that would not inherently constitute cause to remove them from a jury.”

        False. The key phrase, “would not inherently constitute cause to remove them from a jury” is quite a stretch. No lawyer would accept a person wearing a such a shirt as an objective juror.

        “The legal presumption is INNOCENCE. Not guilt. You are EXPECTED to start a trial assuming that the defendent is innocent until proven guilty – not the other way around.”

        Correct.

        Chauvin was ultimately proven guilty by a jury.

        1. ” “There is one relevant question – did Chauvin murder Floyd.
          And the only answer is NO.”

          According to the law, he did.”
          Nope. the prosecution claimed Floyd was suffocated.
          He was not.

          “In Minnesota third-degree murder requires prosecutors to prove that someone caused the death of another “by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life.,”

          Read ALL the words – like “caused death” – Floyd did NOT die of suffocation.
          You keep ignoring this.

          Chauvin did not give him the Fentanyl – Hall did.

          “Chauvin clearly showed disregard for human life. This is why his indifference to Taylor’s pleas were relevant.”
          Again completely irrelevant unless Floyd died of suffocation.
          I would further note that AGAIN as west testified to by PROSECUTION witnesses on cross – People who are being arrested CONSTANTLY plead. “I can’t breath” is a common plea – medical pleas are very common. Floyd was pleading that “I can’t breath BEFORE he was arrested.

          If you say Chauvin was being indifferent – at what point did Floyd pleas go from ridiculous to meaningful ?

          If you say the police must ALWAYS take the pleas of those they arrest seriously – you should not be surprised if in very short order – everyone arrested makes medical pleas.

          This is a frequent problem for those on the left. Biden and the left spent 4 years ranting about the border and about increasing immigration and about unaccompanied minors and families and … and low and behold the moment they gain power – masses of illegal immigrants rush the border – unaccompanied minors at rates never seen before, Families, …..

          You do not seem to understand that when you telegraph to people how to get favorable treatment – they LISTEN, and they will LIE, and it is often impossible to tell the lies from the truth.

          So are you going to call paramedics everytime anyone is arressted ? Are you going to release every out of control arrestee the moment they say “I can’t breath” ?

          How do you know chauvin was indifferent to human life. Maybe he was just jaded by the myriads of people who “claimed to be unable to breath before – of the fact that Floyd said he could not breath for 10 minutes BEFORE being arrested.

          Do the police have portable lie detectors ?

          “Another Minnesota officer was charged with murder not long ago with third degree murder. ” in 2019, former Minneapolis police officer Mohamed Noor was convicted of third-degree murder in the death of Justine Ruszczyk Damond after she called 911 to report a possible sexual assault in progress in the alley near her house. Noor fatally shot Damond from the passenger seat of a squad car, firing across his partner, who had been driving””

          So ? I have no idea the complete facts of the case – and likely you do not either. Maybe it was murder, maybe not.
          I would note in the Noor case the office did shot someone who was NOT a criminal.
          Further the officer SHOT someone – they used deadly force – just as was used against Alishi Babbit – when NOT protecting their life or that of another.

          Floyd died of a heart attack caused by a drug overdose.

          “Then a juror wearing a BLM shirt is not sign of bias either according to you.”
          This juror was wearing a shirt that said get your Knee off my Neck, and was at a George Floyd Rally – BOTH are specific references to THIS case, and BOTH are assertions that Chauvin was GUILTY.

          “A BLM shirt is not a statement about a police officer’s guilt or innocence as well.”
          Correct – but that is NOT the facts specific to this juror. I do not care that he went to BLM rallies.
          I care that he participated in George Floyd specific events and wore a T-Shirt that presumes Floyd was murdered.

          ““In fact even if person wore a “Chauvin is innocent” T-Shirt that would not inherently constitute cause to remove them from a jury.”

          False. The key phrase, “would not inherently constitute cause to remove them from a jury” is quite a stretch. No lawyer would accept a person wearing a such a shirt as an objective juror.”

          No PROSECUTOR would. Regardless, the standard is not “objective” – that is the prosecutors standard. The standard is capable of giving the defendant reasonable doubt.
          Juries are inherently required to err on the side of the defendant.

          That may not happen in the real world – but it is the constitutional and moral requirement.

          “It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.”
          William Blackstone – that would be from the pre-eminent Blackstone’s commentaries on law that are the foundations of western law.

          “Chauvin was ultimately proven guilty by a jury.:”

          No he was convicted. Not at all the same thing. Innocent people are convicted all the time.
          The LOW estimate is that our prisons have about 2.5% of their population as people who are ACTUALLY innocent.

          My wife is a public defender, and has TWO people on the innocence projects “exhonerated” list – this is people who were convicted and later PROVEN to be innocent.

          A conviction sends you to jail. It does not PROVE anything.

          Facts and evidence PROVE things and Juries frequently get things wrong.

          If we look at the prison population and change from “actual innocence” – to just, not guilty of the crime they were convicted of – it is likely we are well into double digits.

          Our legal system is very poor at determining guilt and innocence accurately.
          What saves it most of the time is that as bad as it is, to a large extent the people facing our legal system are guilty of Something.

          I have been pulled over by police many times in my life. I am not a big fan of the police. I can only think of a few instances in which I was actually doing what the officer accused me of. But the vast majority of the time – I was breaking the law.
          While this was traffic offenses, it is no different for felonies and misdemeanors.

          As I said – I am not a big fan of police. I have experience officers talling bald faced lies repeatedly first hand,

          I am not interested in the debate over whether Chauvin is a good person. That is not relevant and I do not know the answer.

          Nor are we debating whether he should have been fired or charged with some lessor offense. There was no trial for a lessor offense.
          I have no evidence to weigh.

          What I do know from THIS trial is that Chauvin did not murder Floyd.

          That is all. That is what is relevant.

          His alleged indifference – is only meaningful if he did kill Floyd.
          He did not – as such evidence of indifference is irrelevant.

          You have demonstrated complete indifference to Ashli Babbits life – are you guilty of her murder ?

          No, because you did not kill her.

          Indifference – alleged or proven is not a crime. It is an element of SOME crimes.
          Alone it is meaningless. 3

    3. Trump is a scum bag and a con man. The fact that you deny the same for Biden means you describe yourself above.

  7. Darren Smith HELP.

    Is there an easier way to get in touch with you than putting your name in a random comment?

    Do you as moderator have access to my email address? If you do you can contact me by that. For the other way do you have an email address by which commentors can contact you?

    I have lost a comment in one of the filters but am no longer sure which post it was a comment for.

    Regards Carl.

    1. I don’t think that Darren has a public email, but JT does — https://www.law.gwu.edu/jonathan-turley — and I’ve used that to communicate about comments here. My guess is that Darren will see an email from you if you send it to the address listed there, just say something like “please forward to Darren” in the subject line.

    2. Carlyle

      I am sorry but I cannot restore the comment you wrote. In the comment you made several permutations of a word that the owner of this website instantiated as being prohibited. You knowledge of this is shown by making permutations of the proscribed word by modifying it several ways, with the exception of one that was left intact and caused the software to flag it out. It is not just a string of characters that the host of the website sought to prohibit, it is the meaning conveyed that he wishes to curtail. It would be against the spirit of his directive to allow a workaround permutation of that which he has disallowed.

      1. Darren.

        That word is necessary as a way of connecting to the malign stereotypes that a significant proportion of whites, maybe a majority have of Blacks.

        The things that happen to Blacks at the hands of police and vigilantes like George Zimmerman happen because in situations of perceived urgency or stress these stereotypes in the unconscious connect directly with the muscles.

        If one bans a word connected to the perjoritive stereotypes and substitutes another word such as “The N-word” the perjoritive stereotypes migrate slowly to the new word that eventually becomes equally toxic and end up in University teachers being persecuted for any discussion of racism that uses even sanitized versions of historical texts. The stereotypes exist as long as the dominance relationship between the classes who consider themselves respectable and the members of the despised underclass exist.

        I doubt that JT ever examines the comment stream such as this one (I imagine he does not have the time). If he did he should be horrified. Once upon a time the commentators on JT’s blog were fairly balanced and civil but that was 20 years ago. Now the commentariat has moved far far to the right. My use of WMD level sarcasm is milder than the average. There are only Natasha and Fishwings left to balance the right wing sludge. Even commentators whom I years ago considered balanced have moved far rightward.

        On a second matter, is there an email address or a permanent thread like the departed corrections thread that one can use to contact the blog maintainer that I believe is you. Shouting out your name in a random post is very inelegant. If there is not already such a facility I suggest one be instituted.

        I agree my particular post laid on the industrial strength sarcasm too heavily. One I made to RAW STORY in a similar vein got me banned from that forum. I will be more careful in future.

        Carl.

        1. Carlyle,
          I agree with what you discussed in the first three paragraphs about the circumnavigating course of some words from being labeled preferable and then inevitably becoming pariah. But it seems that in our host’s views, if I may conjecture and speak of him, the “here and now” of the words’ or ideas’ maligned natures might have contributed to their removal. Yet whether I agree with it or not matters not since it is his weblog and his house rules are of his personal purview. What some others here fail to understand is that Professor Turley’s personal website is more akin to a “closely held” entity than it would be for a general utility or perhaps a large corporation. As such, I would propose in terms of what he chooses to remove from his comment section or his own articles afford him a greater degree of liberty to do so. It is more like his household of where he resides than the public park a few miles away. For example generally in Trespass Law a person has an absolute right to evict an unwanted guest from their residence, with or without cause, for any reason he or she deems proper. When the police were called for a person refusing to leave, if the trespasser was not an immediate family member or for example rented a room there, the reason for the eviction is irrelevant. Once the homeowner said he wanted them to leave that was all the police needed to hear…and its either they leave immediately or they go to jail. So back to the closely held notion, if someone attends a gathering at Professor Turley’s house and starts acting in a manner the host objects to; out he goes…and that’s the end of it. But they are more than welcome to walk to the city park and spout their words off in a manner they see fitting. That is how it works with his website and using another website that allows other forms of speech they prefer to utilize.

          As you wrote in the second matter. It generally is better, though less elegant as you mentioned, to just make the request in the form of a comment if you wish to message someone here. It might seem unintuitive but it is actually faster. Creating a dedicated e-mail address would work better elsewhere but in this case with the mechanics of our workflow it might at best not make much difference time wise and worse it could result in ping-ponging between those who would have to monitor the e-Mail address concurrently. The website in the past used the Corrections page’s comments section but that has been turned off. It was rather cumbersome to have to continually monitor it.

          Thank you for the suggestions. I will share your ideas with Professor Turley next time I speak with him.

          1. Darren, this is certainly an interesting point of view. I do find it ironic that the professor criticizes other platforms for doing what you just explained, the only difference seems to be the size of the “house”. Facebook and twitter are just bigger “homes” of someone else. Still a very interesting insight.

          2. “[I]f someone attends a gathering at Professor Turley’s house and starts acting in a manner the host objects to; out he goes…and that’s the end of it.”

            Hear, hear!

  8. Trial conducted in a city held hostage by rioters. (No change of venue.)

    Jurors not sequestered.

    Proceedings tainted by public announcement of civil settlement.

    Politicians and community activists openly call for guilty verdict — or else.

    Anyone with two eyes can see what that “or else” means.

    A dishonest juror obviously biased who used the verdict to “make a statement.”

    Grotesquely irresponsible media pundits who used Chauvin as a poster child for “systemic racism.”

    Collectivist commentators itching to steal an individual’s liberty to fix social “ills.”

    Whatever the facts of the case, that was *not* the process of objective law. That was mob rule.

    1. Understand what “Systemic racism” really means

      It means “all white people are guilty even if they are not

      “systemic racism” is a notion that if taken seriously by the government, will mean genocide of white people, or if we fight back, at the very least, race war.

      I know some will find this assertion extreme,. why, then?

      because if it is systemic, then we all bear responsibility. and it can only be changed by destroying “We” that is white people

      white people need to wake up, and quit tolerating this “systemic racism” lie.

      anywhere it is stated it must be opposed.

      and not just in ideas. the people who advance it, as a notion, must be personally attacked

      this ultimately will be a war for survival

      1. If we are not going to allow the left to mutilate the meaning for words for political purposes – we can not do the same ourselves.

        Do atleast some on the left intend what you are arguing – likely. Further even if those numbers are small, that outcome is possible just because of the control of the narrative excercised by the left as well as their totalitarian nature.

        I do not beleive that the vast majority of people understand where the left is leading us. I do not even beleive the majority of the left understand the possible outcome of their own positions. These people are engaged in utopian thinking.

        They are increasingly little separated from those who brought Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Castro, and Chavez for power.
        Left utopianism leads to bloody tyranny.

        I doubt the majority of germans supported the extermination of the jews. They merely turned a blind eye or tepid support to their demonization. The rest was carried out quietly by the extremes.

        In the USSR while bourgeois were the first victims, quite quickly – communists ate their own. We already see signs of the same thing today.

        Sure Ben Shapiro and Ticker Carlson draw the ire of the left, but as much vitriole is directed at left wing nut professors with heterodx views, Or JR Rowling, or Martina Navratilova,

        Come the “revolution” Trump may be lined up at the wall first, but it is already clear that the left is fully prepared to kill off its own heretics shortly their after.

        There is no doubt that real Jim Crow was “systemic racism”. But this country today does not have systemic racism.

        There are still racists – of every color. If you are asian you are twice as likely to be the victim of black violence than white violence.

        There ware certainly still problems.

        At the same time if we do not recognize that we live in the least racist moment in time, in the least racist country in the world, we quite litterally risk creating the very racism we are decrying.

        Will we see the rise and triumph of anti-white racism ? Maybe, but we are equally likely to recreate racism against non-white and particularly black minorities. We are not there. We may even be a long way away. But we are headed towards – not away from more racism, not less.

        We have rapidly rising violence in inner cities – and little hope of that declining anytime soon. The fear of white suburban and rural america that urban violence will move to their neighborhoods will grow with the violence. And the more it grows the more the view that the root cause is race will grow on both sides.

        The left is quite good at creating the problems that they claim they are trying to solve.

    2. Amen & Awomen.

      Nor was it an example of blind justice

      And this is a major problem we are facing today.

      The left is quite literally arguing – and ENFORCING the concept that what constitutes right and wrong, what constitutes crime is different depending on the race of the victim and the race of the alleged purpetrator.

      Alishi Babbit was clearly murdered – George Floyd was not.

      Those on the left here constantly want to make Alishi responsible for her own death at the hands of police.
      There is no doubt that a gun shot fired by a police officer that struck Babbit in the neck killed her.
      There is no doubt that Babbit posed not threat of death of serious bodily injury to anyone immediately prior to being shot.
      Yet the left wants to claim that Alishi bears the responsibility for her own death.

      How exactly is protesting and petitioning government in a public building something that makes you complicit in your own death ?
      And in what world is it that taking 3-10x the fatal dose of Fentanyl is NOT being complicit in your own death ?

      Massive double standards on the part of the left.

      That would be bad enough – but these double standards have now been imposed by force through government.
      That is the rule of man, not law. That is lawless and that will end very badly.

      1. John Say, “Alishi Babbit was clearly murdered – George Floyd was not.”

        False. There is distinction that is uncomfortable for those that claim she was murdered.

        “Those on the left here constantly want to make Alishi responsible for her own death at the hands of police.”

        She WAS responsible for her own death. She was TRESPASSING on government property illegally. She was already committing a crime. She was trying to get INTO an area where the public was NOT allowed. Multiple people were forcing their way into the chamber where legislators were still in. Officers were authorized to use deadly force to protect the legislators. Babbit was engaging in a criminal act. Just like any officer shooting a suspect who presents a threat he was clearly justified in shooting Babbit. She was not just an innocent bystander. She was actively committing a crime. There is no double standard here.

        1. Svelaz are you ok with shooting trespassers? Can I shoot a trespasser lawfully? No, I can’t. Not unless in fear of my life. The cop who murdered her had no fear of his life. Middle aged unarmed woman trying to squeeze through a little hole behind a secure barricade. And you’ll notice the other cop didn’t shoot did he.

          https://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2013/12/is-it-ever-legal-to-shoot-trespassers.html

          Now let’s rewind to last year and see how Svelaz and his friends spazzed out because a bunch of trespassers got guns merely waved at them. None of them shot.

          Double standard much?

          https://nypost.com/2020/07/20/gun-triggered-st-louis-couple-hit-with-criminal-charges/

        2. “John Say, “Alishi Babbit was clearly murdered – George Floyd was not.”

          False. There is distinction that is uncomfortable for those that claim she was murdered.”

          There is ? Then you would be able to cite it.

          The applicable federal law on the use of deadly force by a federal officer requires that to use deadly force against someone they must be an IMMEDIATE threat of DEATH or serious bodily injury to yourself or others.

          There is no exception for killing someone in the midst of a crime – unless that crime is murder or agrevated assault.

          Babbit was not arrmed.

          She was no serious threat to the officer or anyone else.

          I would note that Babbit was not under arrest, It does not appeat that she was warned, and it is near certain she heard no warning.

          Further the officer shot her in a way that was a risk to other people – including other officers.

          There were police on the other side of the door immediately bedside her – and they did nothing to stop her, in fact they got out of the way of those trying to get into the speakers lobby as soon as it was cleared.

          “She WAS responsible for her own death. She was TRESPASSING on government property illegally.”
          It is public property not “government property – further it WAS or should have been open to the public.

          It was not posted no tresspassing. She was not warned not to tresspass.
          Please look up the law on Tresspass – because you are fully of Schiff.

          Further, if she had been tresspassing and given notice – the officer STILL would not have been permitted to use deadly force.

          “She was already committing a crime.”
          You already lost that argument – but lest assume for the sake of argument that she was.

          Are the police allowed to shoot Tresspassors ? When is the last time you heard of that happening ?
          Can they shoot people for dealing drugs ? Parking in a no parking zone.

          Tresspass is typically a summary or misdemeanor offence.
          There are specific requirements for Felony tresspass and those were not even close to met.

          And even if Alishi was committing Felony Tresspass – that is not sufficient to justify the use of deadly force.

          “She was trying to get INTO an area where the public was NOT allowed.”
          I did not see a no trasspassing sign – did you ? Where ?

          Further we have been through this before. It has not been established that Alishi was climbing through the broken window.

          And AGAIN – even if she had been – the LAW does not provide that is a justification for the use of deadly force.

          “Multiple people were forcing their way into the chamber where legislators were still in.”
          False, the legislators had left the speakers lobby. Watch the videos. You can see the last people in the lobby leave out the back and close the door. AFTER that the officers in front of the door where the protestors were moved away from the door.
          THEN Alishi is shot.

          But lets say hypothetically that there were still representatives in the lobby.

          The police are NOT authorize to use deadly force to prevent members of the house of representatives from having to face angry members of the public.

          “Officers were authorized to use deadly force to protect the legislators.”
          From IMMEDIATE threat of death or serious bodily injury.

          Not from angry citizens protesting government.

          “Babbit was engaging in a criminal act.”

          Nope. She was not tresspassing, and even if she was that is a summary or misdemeanor,
          But ever if she was committing a felony – she was trying to pick pocket one of the representatives – that is NOT a justification for the use of deadly force.

          Deadly force by a federal agent requires an immediate threat of DEATH or serious bodily harm

          Not an angry citizen protesting.

          Even if Alishli had a Gun – unless she had been aiming it at a person – the shooting would not be justified.

          ” Just like any officer shooting a suspect who presents a threat he was clearly justified in shooting Babbit.”
          Alishi did not present a threat.

          Please actually read the law – you have been making up the law regarding Floyd and you keep making it up regarding Alishi.

          “She was not just an innocent bystander.”
          No, she was an angry citizen petitioning government and protesting a lawless election.

          “She was actively committing a crime.”
          Nope.

          “There is no double standard here.”
          Of course there is.

          Floyd was arrested for passing a counterfeit $20.
          That is an actual crime. It is a serious crime. It is an actual felony.

          Would the police have been justified in shooting Floyd had they done so while he was in the store passing the counterfeit $20 ?

          Of course not.

          While you have failed to demonstrate that Alishi was committing a crime – even if you succeeded – law enforcement – and in this case specifically federal law enforcement, may not use deadly force just because someone is committing a crime – even a felony.

          There are very specific requirements to use deadly force. They are SLIGHTLY lower in most states for police than for ordinary people – but not much. The federal standard for the police is the same as for ordinary people – with a few exceptions such as crimes involving nuclear materials that are completely irrelevant here.

          The use of deadly force is only allowed where there is an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury.

          The only person that died at the capital was Alishi. Serious bodily injury is an assault that could kill someone.

          You do not have that. In fact you did not have that anywhere at the capital – except the murder of Alishi.

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