“It Needs To Be Hard For People To Remain Unvaccinated”: Making The Case For Covid Challenges

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Dr. Leana Wen, CNN analyst and Distinguished Fellow at the Fitzhugh Mullan Institute of Health Workforce Equity at George Washington University, has caused a stir due to her recent declaration on CNN that “it needs to be hard for people to remain unvaccinated.” With France implementing a mandatory “health pass” and private companies like Morgan Stanley requiring vaccinations for employees to return to work, we can expect more protests and challenges around the world. Those cases are likely to focus on whether mandatory requirements are based on medical or political imperatives. Wen’s comment is likely to be repeated in many filings as another case of “saying the quiet part out loud.” She appears to advocate measures defined to coerce people to take vaccinations due to the continuing refusal of a sizable number of people.

Wen is a well-known medical analyst and the former head of Planned Parenthood. She is a visiting professor at George Washington University.

Wen made clear that health measures should be used to make life hard for people who refuse the vaccine so that they yield to public demands: “[b]asically, we need to make getting vaccinated the easy choice.” In the Washington Post, Wen also called for “Biden to make the case for vaccine requirements.”

There is already open pressure from the White House on private companies to require vaccinations. Morgan Stanley responded by doing just that this week. They can likely do so. The most serious challenges could come from those with religious objections. However, even if they are allowed to work remotely, Morgan Stanley CEO James Gorman stated in July that “If you want to get paid New York rates, you work in New York. None of this, ‘I’m in Colorado…and getting paid like I’m sitting in New York City. Sorry, that doesn’t work.” The message could not be clearer that working remotely will come at a penalty.

The Biden White House is clearly concerned that making vaccines mandatory will cause not just court challenges but a public backlash. However, such mandatory programs have been upheld. As I discussed in a column last year, there is a 1905 case where the Supreme Court upheld a state mandatory vaccination program of school children for small pox in Massachusetts. In Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905), the Court found that such programs are the quintessential state power rather than a federal power. It also held that “every well-ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand.” States are allowed to subject citizens to restraints to protect “general comfort, health, and prosperity of the State.”

The fear is that, as with social media companies carrying out censorship of political and social viewpoints, companies will now serve as surrogates for the state on vaccinations. The Administration would prefer to do precisely what Wen advocated: ratchet up the private penalties and difficulties for anyone who wants to remain unvaccinated.

The problem is when you have leading analysts arguing for such measures as coercive devices. While there is considerable deference on such matters, the courts could take note of such demands to make life hard on those who are not “getting with the program.”

As of July 11, a total of 159,266,536 Americans have been fully vaccinated. That is 48 percent of the country’s population. When you consider the extremely high rate of vaccination for those over 65, the percentage of adults under 65 is even smaller. Despite all of the press and bizarre reward systems, the government is clearly hitting a wall with many people declining the vaccines.  (For the record, I took the vaccine and all of my family has been vaccinated).

That is a sizable number of voters and the Democrats are leery of openly forcing vaccines before the 2022 election. That is why the push is to make life more difficult through private companies. However, if these measures are viewed as designed to coerce, courts may be more scrutinizing of the public health necessity for the measures.


355 thoughts on ““It Needs To Be Hard For People To Remain Unvaccinated”: Making The Case For Covid Challenges”

  1. 485,000 people in America died from tobacco last year. Stop smoking. Give the smokers a quicker method of suicide and get the medical costs down.

    1. Liberty2nd,

      Give us all the freshest numbers on the Deaths & Injuries caused by the US Medical Industrial Complex.

      Could it be that the suicide might be that a smoker or someone with a respiratory issue believes they’ll get great care from the hospitals & Big Pharma/Govt. when they go?


      AstraZeneca, J&J Working On ‘Modifications’ To Eliminate Potentially Deadly Side Effects
      Tyler Durden’s Photo
      by Tyler Durden
      Tuesday, Jul 13, 2021 – 03:25 PM

      Yesterday, the FDA confirmed that the Johnson & Johnson jab may be linked to rare side effects consistent with a neurological condition known as Guillain-Barré. The news was only the latest revelation of a rare but potentially life-threatening side effect caused by the vaccines. Both AstraZeneca and J&J have been linked to cerebral blood clots, while the Pfizer and Moderna jabs (which use a new technology known as mRNA) have been linked to heart inflammation in a small number of patients.

      Unsurprisingly, the media hasn’t devoted much attention to covering these defects. Authorities like the CDC insist that the benefits of the jabs far outweigh the risks, while Dr. Fauci took to CNBC Tuesday morning to offer reassurances about J&J’s new warning label while suggesting that private companies do more to coerce Americans to get vaccinated. more…………


      1. I heard about all of these things on NBC, but you really wouldn’t know whether “the media” cover these topics because you only watch alt-right media that tells you that mainstream media lie and cover things up. The risk of Guillan-Barre syndrome is miniscule, and polio vaccines can cause this condition in children, but we still give the polio vaccine. They aren’t sure that heart inflammation, which has been occurring in teenagers long before COVID, is related to the vaccine, but in the interests of transparency, incidences of this condition after vaccination is being reported.

    2. How does one die from tobacco?

      Every person suffers cancer constantly and repeatedly.

      Most people fight off cancer.

      People who die from cancer are those who, quite simply, fail in their fight against it.

      I once knew a woman in her 90’s who continued to smoke 2 or 3 cigarettes a day.

      I had a sister-in-law who never smoked with her breasts but died of breast cancer at 35.

      Your thesis appears a bit unstable.


  2. “Experience teaches us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent.” Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis

    But, but it’s a conspiracy theory!

    1. “of all the tyrannies, those sincerely exercised for the good of others my be the most oppressive.” C.S. Lewis

      1. “The most terrifying words in the English language are: I’m from the government and I’m here to help.”

        Ah, what did those old white guys know anyway. 😉




    Jul 7, 2021
    The HighWire with Del Bigtree
    The HighWire with Del Bigtree

    Dr. Robert Malone, inventor of the mRNA vaccine, sits down with Del to give his honest concerns about why this is the wrong technology to use against #Covid19 and, in particular, the extreme danger it poses to young people.


  4. I went to a large state university during a measles outbreak. It was around Christmas. Letter went out saying don’t come back to class in January without a new new measles vaccination. i was on campus during the break and just wandered to the infirmary for one. That was that. No uprising, People just did what they had to do without getting all caught up about their ‘right’ not to get vaccinated. Different times, certainly.

    As life went on, I became vegetarian, actively practiced eating healthy, taking care of myself with herbs, supplementation, acupuncture, etc. Worked in medical establishments, both conventional and more alternative. Never took a flu vaccine. But when Covid arrived I knew things were different…

    I got vaccinated as soon as I could because it’s a basically a social responsibility. Two reasons I say this…, as was later borne out by experience, Covid had the capacity to grow so quickly and exponentially that hospitals could’ve turned people away. This actually happened in several locations. Not like India. But way too close for comfort…

    And healthy or not, asymptomatic carrying of Covid is a real issue. You can not be personally affected yet still be responsible for passing it on to someone not set up to have it without serious consequence. To do that would be one hundred percent purely selfish. Don’t want to do that. Ever. And I don’t think others should be allowed to do it either….

    So my health regimen is turned toward counterbalancing any negative effects of the vaccine, but other than a slight fever the day after I got the J&J shot it hasn’t affected me negatively in any way. And I’ve had my health issues, believe me. I’ve got my miles on me.

    No problem at all with a mandate for vaccination. None. At least with respect to Covid vaccine. Don’t want to hear any slippery slope b.s. about it either. Unless contraindicated for reasons scientific in nature, do your f ing social responsibility.

    And hats off to you and your family for doing the right thing, Turley.


    1. Anonymous

      Prize for most self congratulatory post this so far this month.

    2. You can not be personally affected yet still be responsible for passing it on to someone not set up to have it without serious consequence. To do that would be one hundred percent purely selfish.

      Why are the vulnerable not responsible for protecting themselves? We knew going in, there is a defined, finite, group of vulnerable persons. Age, finite list of co-morbidness, including obesity and diabetes. Before the vaccine I encountered what I assume were a married couple, she in excess of 200lbs, and he, carrying an oxygen tank, at the local Menards. I am perfectly fine taking my chances during the height of the virus and choosing how best protect myself. We have never before quarantined the healthy in response to a virus.

      1. Your elevated self-esteem will surely carry you through, iowan2. Might kill some others as a direct result of you looking out for number one, buy hey, you’re cool with it, right?


        1. I stopped a long time ago trying to run other peoples lives. I watch them make stupid decisions every single day. I cannot help those that refuse to help themselves. The govt is not the nations nanny. When the govt hijacks the roll of almighty protector, we get Fuaci and Cuomo.
          So take your sanctimony and trot off to be the moral exemplar you think you are.

          This is not about what I as an individual does. This is about the govt exercising power it does not have….because the people have not delegated that power to the govt.

          You are really stretching to find something to troll.

          I notice you turn mean and personal so you dont have to address the issue I raised. Why quarantine the healthy, we never have before. And we learned why. It doesn’t work.

          There are far too many people that believe the govt is looking out for the care and safety of its citizens. Nope. Never happens.

          1. I think it’s about morons who refuse to take social responsibility. But that’s just me.


            1. And who determines social responsibility? I don’t think it’s socially responsible to potentially compromise my healthy body for someone else’s perceived safety. If I’m harmed, I will be a burden to society. At that point, it will be the opposite of social responsibility. Besides,, there is zero guarantee my vaccination helps anyone else. There is not even a guarantee it will help ME. So please get off your high horse before you hurt yourself.

    3. I repeatedly contracted the flu until one year it settled, extremely painfully, in my ear. I have taken the flu shot religiously ever since. I suggest a flu shot to my family and anyone who asks.

      Why does an organization require shots to protect people who have already received the shot?

      “That dudn’t make any sense.”

      – George W. Bush

      If one has received the shot, one is protected, right?

      If Americans are free and enjoy the rights and freedoms of the U.S. Constitution, including a right to privacy, which, by definition, includes the rejection of infusions of substances into their persons, Congress cannot compel vaccinations, leaving Congress with no choice but to abide the outcomes of freedom.

    4. “do your f ing social responsibility.” “No problem at all with a mandate . . .”

      Ever notice that sacrifice of self to others is used to justify government coercion? Ever notice that “social responsibility” is a cherished propaganda tool of tyrants, everywhere, forever?

      (I know. I know: A “broad brush.” But, better a broad brush than none, at all.)

      1. It’s a tool for idiots that failed in appealing to authority, especially an authority that was the former CEO of Planned Parenthood. Oh, she’s a doctor and she’s concerned about saving lives. Right. Josef Mengele was also a doctor.




    Jul 7, 2021
    Most Banned Videos
    Most Banned Videos

    Banned off Youtube earns you a coveted spot on The Most Banned Videos channel, from the Pandemic podcast.

    “When one of the world’s most highly-qualified and respected medical professionals is consistently questioning how the response to the SARS-COV-2 pandemic has been handled, you have to sit up and pay attention.

    My guest is Peter McCullough, an internist, cardiologist, epidemiologist, and Professor of Medicine at Texas A & M College of Medicine in Dallas. He’s also the editor-in-chief of two prestigious cardiology journals and associate editor of another, and he has testified at the US Senate.

    Dr McCullough has already published more than 40 peer-reviewed papers on managing Covid-19 and has become fearless in taking on the medical establishment and US authorities, using what he calls ‘open-eyed’ journalists in mainstream American media to get his message across, one sound bite at a time.

    His key focus is on doing all in his power to halt the vaccine roll-out while continuing to campaign for the effective, low-cost, early medical interventions that have seen 85% of the over-50s who have benefited from these treatments avoid hospitalisation.

    Join me at the new rescheduled time of 4pm BST when Dr McCullough will be talking us through the highly effective protocols and strategies he and colleagues across the US and beyond have developed and why he believes this has been eclipsed by the quest for mass vaccination. We’ll also look at the differences in how the US and UK have managed their pandemic responses, and what — if anything — we can learn from them.

    Save 40% on Survival Shield X-2 Nascent Iodine RIGHT NOW!


    1. Shut up and get vaccinated before you get sick or pass on a horrible virus to those around you, daffodil.


      1. If “…those around you, daffodil…” are vaccinated and protected, they can’t be infected or damaged, right, pansy?

        Would you please provide a legal, constitutional basis for that order, comrade.

        Alternatively, you could ST-U, or, alternatively, ask mommy or daddy exactly how to proceed from here.

      2. Wait. China demonstrably passed on “…a horrible virus to those around…” them.

        You didn’t give China any orders regarding remuneration or corrective action.

        You seem pretty —-ed up, no?

        WT-, over!

  6. Off Topic: Mespo and I have been skeptical of the federal charges against men for plotting the kidnapping of Governor Whitmer. It looked too much like another ridiculous
    FBI fabrication to create a crime to ‘solve’ and make a political point.

    Now Yahoo news is reporting this: https://news.yahoo.com/fbi-allegedly-used-least-12-011301397.html

    It turns out that there are only 5 defendants in the case and 12 FBI activists [and maybe more not yet disclosed]. Did they even need the defendants when they had 12 poseurs willing to put this together?

    One reason for suspecting it was a put-up case was that the plot was ridiculous. At one point, if I remember correctly, Whitmer was to be taken out on one of the Great Lakes to be held on a raft. What is this? A plot from a Batman comic? Even story lines about superheroes aren’t that ridiculous.

    Come to think of it, having a team of at least 12 FBI plants in on a plot with only 5 defendants sounds pretty ridiculous too. Did they vote on their plans? The 5 would always lose that vote; they were heavily outnumbered by the feds in their group.

    1. “Show me the man, and I’ll show you the crime.”

      – Lavrentiy Beria

      Keep your eyes peeled for the Brown Shirts.

    2. Another video from 1/6/20 came out yesterday. Are they also FBI plants?

      Does a Leopard change his spots?


      NEW VIDEO: FBI Protecting Black Clad Provocateurs Who Led Jan. 6th Attack



      Jul 12, 2021
      The Alex Jones Show
      The Alex Jones Show

      Jim Hoft of the Gateway Pundit joins Alex Jones live via Skype to discuss FBI involvement in the protest-turned-riot at the U.S. Capitol on Janurary 6th, and he breaks down the latest news regarding the 2020 Presidential Election audits across the country.


      1. It does seem likely that the 1/6 ‘insurrection’ was another setup with government actors. I had assumed something like that would happen before the event. The opportunity was too tempting to be ignored by BLM. Antifa and the government agency subversives. I wouldn’t be surprised if elements of all of them were involved in concert or independently.

        1. I guess the positive in your idiocy is that you at least recognize what happened on 1/6 was a crime scene in a portapotty. Please give up the gullibility for self respect’s sake though. My god.


    3. The FBI made a scenario out of fabricated 302s to establish the fictional account claiming that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman in the JFK assassination.

      The FBI couldn’t change the fact that the ER physician who treated JFK said in a press conference, within minutes of the event, that he had inserted a tracheotomy through an entrance wound in the front of JFK’s throat proving definitively that JFK was shot from the front.

      The FBI was created in an atmosphere of corruption, coercion and extortion by J. Edgar Hoover who kept surreptitious dossiers for a living – literally for a living.

      Christopher Wray faithfully and ably carries on that tradition of corruption, that putrefaction.

  7. Jonathan: Getting vaccinated against Covid and the Delta variant would seem a no brainer. But many Republicans and Trump supporters have refused the vaccine. It’s a political statement. Trump supporters look to their leader who fought pandemic restrictions because he thought the rapid spread of the virus would hurt him politically. It turned out he was right for a change. He lost the 2020 election.

    There is an old saying: “It takes a village to raise a child”. So too when it comes to public health. It was only after state public health agencies around the country joined together in a collective effort that we began to get control of the virus. I live in a “red” state. It overwhelmingly voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020. Now my state has one of the lowest rates of vaccination and now has one of highest rates of infection in the country. The state’s Republican leadership has fought the Biden administration’s attempt to work with local health agencies to increase the vaccination rate. Now you would think, out of respect for their leader, Trump supporters would want to get vaccinated. You would be wrong. I mean Trump and Melania secretly got vaccinated back in December. And that came after Trump was hospitalized when he came down with Covid. We now know his condition was much worse than his doctors admitted at the time. Hard to explain logically but 40% of Republicans still refuse the vaccine. That’s why Covid and the variant are spreading uncontrolled in “red” states. Some of my neighbors say they are afraid of the vaccines out of the false fear that the long term effect of the vaccine will cause lasting damage to their DNA. This comes from people who don’t think twice about getting their flu shot in the fall. Some who refuse to get vaccinated want a “fake” vaccination card to show their employers. Talk about denial!

    When it comes to public health and public safety some “coercion” is inevitable. If you want to drive you have to pass a test and pay a fee. Don’t hear much objection by Republicans to these measures to protect pedestrians and other drivers on the streets and highways. It should be the same with Covid–to protect the public from infection, hospitalization and even death. But many Trump supporters and Republican politicians object to vaccination as a intrusion into their personal “privacy”. They even refuse to wear a face mask in public. Try that at any airport. You can’t get into the airport without wearing a face mask. Now private employers are requiring all employees to be vaccinated. A small price to pay to protect everyone. I doubt, as you seem to think, courts will want to strike down public health measures to fight the pandemic that still poses a threat to public safety.

    1. “But many Republicans and Trump supporters have refused the vaccine.”

      I feel like a broken record. But when the same commentors keep spreading the same lies . . .

      By far, the greatest resistance to vaccination is among Blacks and Latinos.

      Last I checked, those two groups vote overwhelmingly *Democrat*. If you want to clean house, perhaps you should start with your own.

      1. Sam: “By far, the greatest resistance to vaccination is among Blacks and Latinos.”
        It wasn’t long ago that many in the black community believed that AIDS had been invented to destroy black people. I suppose the logic was that it was presumably designed to target drug users and gays and would therefore hit blacks harder.

        That idea was absurd, but crazy ideas gain traction.

        Now with reports that the new, experimental, vaccines may interfere with reproduction the black community may suspect that the government is pushing genocide on them again. Didn’t somebody want to vaccinate everybody in Africa? They might ‘just say No’.

        Oddly, some ‘experts’ demanding that everyone be vaccinated were also vocal in the past about drastically reducing or eliminating human populations to protect Mother Earth or Gaia or whatever pagan goddess appeals at the moment. Now some wonder why these extinctionists are so enthusiastic about the experimental vaccines.

        I, of course, don’t believe any of that nonsense, but with trust in governments that have been caught lying time and again plunging to new lows I can understand how some people may embrace those notions.

        Since the vaccines are experimental and not FDA approved and nobody can predict what they will do in the longer term, some of the conspiracy addicts may end up making the right decision for the wrong reasons. But it may still be the right decision and that is what counts when your life and health are in the balance.

      2. According to CDC data, the full vaccination rate for African-Americans as of July 12 was 23.7%, the lowest of any racial or ethnic group.

        1. Daniel says: “According to CDC data, the full vaccination rate for African-Americans as of July 12 was 23.7%, the lowest of any racial or ethnic group.”


          The vaccines were developed mostly by white [and Asian] people.

          Given all of the anti-white rhetoric blacks have been bombarded with from the media and the government, why would they trust any vaccine developed by white people?

        2. There is a cultural reason for many blacks not wanting to accept the gift of another Federal inoculation. If you look back to the story of what happened at the Tuskegee Institute a century ago you may understand better just why many blacks are hesitant. Back then blacks were given shots of live syphilis so the medical forces could watch what happened. That they did but they provided absolutely not one thing to help those people who spent the remainder of their lives in insufferable pain.

          That is a known story in many black communities and I learned about it when I was a young waitress at a YMCA camp where the next generation of Tuskegee students ran the entire kitchen. People don’t forget that sort of horror and ought to be left alone given the overly political dimensions of what is going on now. It’s very difficult for many people to know just what is real and what isn’t and they are not all Republicans which really adds to the flavor of this being an agenda item based on politics and not medicine.

          First do no harm.

          1. Foggy World says: “Back then [Tuskegee] blacks were given shots of live syphilis so the medical forces could watch what happened.”

            I think that is a misstatement of what really happened.

            Nobody was given shots of live syphilis.

            With a cohort of patients who had been infected in the wild because of their own risky behavior the decision was made to compare outcomes between untreated patients and patients who received the treatment then available.

            That was a reasonable trial since the medications then available were toxic in themselves and one could question whether they were sometimes more dangerous than the disease then being treated.

            The ethical failure occurred when antibiotics that were safer and more effective than previous treatments became available. The decision was made not to use the antibiotics on infected and untreated subjects but to let the experiment run. That was clearly wrong. When antibiotics became available they should have been given to everyone in the trial. I doubt that it was racist. It looks more like too much dedication to protocols in a scientific trial.

            A much greater abuse occurred during the radiation experiments described in “The Plutonium Files”. Citizens, including children and pregnant women, were given doses of radioactivity, including plutonium, without their knowledge. Not much is made of that these days because blacks weren’t particularly involved so the race industry can’t rant about it.

            One fact that is grimly pleasant about that account is that some of the experimenters who gave high does of radioactive substances to ‘patients’ died of radiation induced diseases before their victims did.

            As for your original statement one could ask a couple of questions: Why Tuskegee? Because there was a high syphilis infection rate in that community, and you go where you need to go to get participants for your clinical study. Why blacks? Because Tuskegee had a very large black population who, as it happened, were infected with syphilis and available for study.

            As for ‘giving them syphilis’ as you believe, that is not only untrue but also unnecessary because so many people in that community had acquired the disease naturally. The last time I looked at this study a decade or so ago it was noted that the high rate of infection for syphilis in that community is about the same today as it was then. The treatment may have changed, but the behavior leading to infection apparently has not.

          2. Foggy World; “That is a known story in many black communities and I learned about it when I was a young waitress at a YMCA camp where the next generation of Tuskegee students ran the entire kitchen.”


            I was wondering where you had learned that. My first guess, wrong as it turns out, was that it was in one of those horrid ‘studies’ classes.

            It is truly unfortunate that misinformation like that is flowing uncorrected in the black community. It is like the idea that AIDS was created for black people. It is not only untrue but it is extremely destructive to society that resentments are allowed to grow because of false information. I suspect that some people who know better are content to let these grievances grow even though untrue.

            I don’t expect it to be corrected soon. I once wrote a recommendation for a young black woman because she was very bright and deserved the spot she was seeking. But she astonished me when she asked if I remembered about the time that “MLK freed the slaves”. She still got the recommendation of course but I was saddened to see someone this smart graduate from high school without that perception being corrected. People like her are not being well served in our society.

          3. The Israelite slaves were out of Egypt before the ink was dry on their release papers.

            But then, they had the capacity, acumen and gumption for success and self-reliance; they weren’t of the nature of parasites.

      3. Blacks and Hispanics know better than to *trust government* when it is a FACT that people of color were the ones *targeted* by Margaret Sanger/Planned Parenthood for genocidal destruction through abortion. How is this COVID-19 vaccine any different. People of color are the ones suffering the most from inflammation of the ovaries or testes, leading to sterility. Niki Minaj sounded the alarm on that one, and they tried to shut her up.

    2. The Vaccines are APPROVED FOR EMERGENCY USE ONLY!!! They have not completed their Clinical trials and all adverse side effects reported and investigated – They won’t be approved for probably close to 2 more years, IF they will be approved. I am not going to take any vaccine which has not been APPROVED by the FDA (and I don’t mean ‘emergency approval)!

      1. Certainly not while the conditional risk of the disease is lower than the vaccines. Not when 80% of the cases are in overweight and obese people. Not when the high risk of viability is with comorbidities correlated with age. Not when a majority have either crossreactive or acquired immunity. Not when there are inexpensive, effective therapeutic treatments with safety profiles established over decades, globally, that prevent infection and mitigate disease progression. Not when the UK reports that vaccinated individuals are still vulnerable over an indefinite time and 6x more likely to die from the delta mutation.

        PHE: SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation in England

        h/t Oh Stop The Stupid!

        1. Where did you get the idea that the risk of the vaccine is greater than the risk of the disease, or that there are inexpensive, effective therapeutic treatments? Tell us, please.

    3. Dennis: “Getting vaccinated against Covid and the Delta variant would seem a no brainer. But many Republicans and Trump supporters have refused the vaccine. It’s a political statement. Trump supporters look to their leader”

      In the ‘no brainer’ department I read your comment no further than that statement to recognize an absence of brains. Trump pushed creation of the vaccine at a time when Fauci and others said it wasn’t possible to be made in the time Trump wanted.

      Trump has endorsed getting the vaccine so I am not sure how you pretzel that into the idea that Trump followers are declining because of him.

      Add to that about half of the staff at the CDC and about half of Fauci’s large staff had not gotten the vaccine a few months ago. Are they Trump followers? There has been a strange silence on that subject since then.

      James, who got the vaccine, posted a very good comment below and I responded in this way which might answer questions you haven’t thought to ask:

      I know a number of medical people who have not been vaccinated for the reasons you [James] articulated so well. Not long ago it was admitted that roughly half of the CDC staff had not been vaccinated and about the same percentage of Fauci’s staff. The reasons were not given but it is not unlikely that they were similar to the concerns you gave.

      I would add that nobody knows the long term risks that come with the vaccines. Could there be autoimmune problems? Could the vaccine accelerate an underlying or hidden autoimmune progression? I know of one such death where that appears more likely than not. A patient (a relative) with a disease that usually progresses slowly crashed after getting the vaccine.

      It is harder to make an informed decision when hateful politics has polluted everything. The same people (some here) who warned that HCQ and Ivermectin were dangerous and should never be used for Covid despite years of wide use of these drugs around the world with minimal side effects now demand that everyone take a jab that is not FDA approved and that has not undergone enough trials to estimate longer term risks. Meanwhile some of the vaccines appear to be causing graver side effects than HCQ or Ivermectin ever did.

      Add to the mix that trust in government is justifiably at historic lows and I suspect a significant number of people will never risk this vaccination.

      1. Here’s what Dr. Fauci actually said:

        During the Presidential debate, Donald Trump said we’d have a vaccine before the end of the year. This was true—with a catch. Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious disease doctor, went on the BBC today to discuss COVID-19 with Andrew Marr, and said exactly when he thought you’d be able to get vaccinated.
        When Will We Get a Coronavirus Vaccine, According to Fauci?

        “I believe he said that correctly,” Fauci said of Trump’s promise. “We will know whether a vaccine is safe and effective by the end of November, the beginning of December. But,” he continued, “the question is, once you have a safe and effective vaccine or more than one, how can you get it to the people who need it as quickly as possible? So the amount of doses that will be available in December will not certainly be enough to vaccinate. Everybody, you’ll have to wait several months into 2021. But what will happen is that there has been a prioritization set, so that individuals such as healthcare workers will very likely get first shot at that as well. Then likely people who are in the category of being at an increased risk of complications that could start by the end of this year, the beginning, January, February, March of next year.”

        “But when you talk about vaccinating, a substantial proportion of the population, so that you can have a significant impact on the dynamics of the outbreak, that very likely will not be until the second or third quarter of the year,” he added.

        Marr then asked about the anti-science attitude in “today’s America. How important is it that politicians and public figures set an example and follow the science?”

        Fauci answered: “Oh, I think it’s very important because you know, we, we have a situation which is understandable. People look at what their leaders say and do, and you can positively or negatively influence behavior. One of the things I’m concerned about in the United States is that part of the anti-science translates maybe into anti-vaccine, particularly amongst some of the more vulnerable people like the minorities in our population. It would really be if we have a safe and effective vaccine, but a substantial proportion of the people do not want to take the vaccine because they don’t trust the authority. That would really be unfortunate if that’s the case.”

        “As for yourself, 35 states in America are seeing dramatic rises in cases and, in many, hospitalizations. No matter where you live, wear your face mask, avoid crowded, hang outdoors more than indoor, practice good hand hygiene, and to get through this pandemic at your healthiest.”

        So, again, more lies about Trump’s dazzling performance vis-a-vis the vaccine, and how he allegedly proved the experts wrong. What Dr. Fauci said was spot-on.

        As to the long-term effects, if the vaccines were more dangerous than the disease, we’d know it by now. You Trumpsters keep ignoring the reality of the risk of non-vaccination, and that is full-blown COVID, with respiratory failure, mechanical ventilation, organ damage, and if you survive, long-term effects of damage to lungs and other organs. Now, we have the more dangerous Delta variant. Experts, who know a whole lot more than you or I, looked at the data, the lack of serious initial side-effects, the efficacy and the risk of allowing COVID to spread unchecked, and approved it for emergency use authorization. The only catch was checking on the long-term effects, which takes a long time–years. Waiting years for full studies would be irresponsible and result in unnecessary deaths and illness. We also don’t know when or whether a booster is needed., but so many millions of doses have been given that if the vaccine was dangerous, there would be proof by now.

        1. Natch said: “What Dr. Fauci said was spot-on.”
          You can always be ‘spot on’ when you are allowed to speak with a forked tongue and say one thing at one time and another thing at a later time. See Karen’s catch of Fauci parselspeak on this thread.

          1. He’s a politician masquerading as a doctor. This means at some point he traded in his Hippocratic Oath for the Hypocrite Oath taken by many in the political class.

    4. I’m not a Republican nor Trump supporter. My decision not to accept the mRNA/DNA vaccines has nothing at all to do with politics!

      The mRNA/DNA vaccines are still classified as experimental and likely will be through 2023 when the phase 3 trials complete.  For that reason alone, I will not take one of these vaccines.

      Then there are serious questions about the spike protein that these vaccines use to trigger an immune response including if they can handle Covid mutations and is there a risk of vascular damage that may show up months or years from the date the vaccine jab was done.  Animal tests have shown vascular damage.

      There are numerous examples of vaccines and drugs that seemed to work initially but months/years later were discovered to cause serious problems.

      I don’t fear Covid. If you do, then it is YOUR responsibility to protect yourself, which may mean locking yourself in your house and never coming out because you are unable to conquer your fear of Covid (or any other risk one would face in their daily world). I refuse to embrace your fear.

      As for Wen, she has been a reliable CNN scaremonger from the very beginning of this Covid scamdemic. I laugh at her always full of fear, strident yapping when I see her on the TV. Just because someone can put DR. in front of their name doesn’t mean that they know what they are talking about. Never forget that 50% of the MD’s graduated in the lower half of their classes.

    5. “Getting vaccinated against Covid and the Delta variant would seem a no brainer.”

      (1) We don’t know the long term risks of the vaccines. That’s why it’s only authorized for emergency use.

      (2) The risk of side effects(including death) appears much higher than any other FDA approved vaccine.

      (3) Will the government pay my health bill if I get sick from the vaccine? A: “no way.”

      (4) We don’t know how long the protection afforded by the vaccine lasts. If you need boosters then the risk of side effects increases even more.

      (5) The risk benefit profile for young people shows that they should NOT take the vaccine. Never before have we vaccinated children so that
      older people have better health outcomes…this is immoral.

      (6) Ivermectin does appear to work. If and when this is shown to be true, then the FDA will be forced to withdraw emergency approval because there is an alternative non-experimental treatment.

      One last point. The legal reasoning behind Jacobson is the same reasoning that was used to intern the Japanese during WW2 and it was also used for forced sterilizations.

  8. Apparently the American Founders did not intend for comrade Dr. Leana Wen to become a U.S. citizen, much less preach to Americans.

    Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1798 and 1802 (four iterations)

    United States Congress, “An act to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization,” March 26, 1790

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That any Alien being a free white person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States for the term of two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof

    And comrade Wen would not have been allowed to vote by the American Founders in the 1788 election with its severely limited turnout out of just 11.6%, as voters must have been male, European, 21 with 50 lbs. Sterling/50 acres.

    We know who built America.

    Who, exactly, destroyed it?

  9. “With France implementing a mandatory “health pass” and private companies like Morgan Stanley requiring vaccinations for employees to return to work,…”

    – Professor Turley

    France is not under the dominion of the U.S. Constitution.

    Morgan Stanley is private property which Congress has no power to “claim or exercise dominion” over.

    The legislative and executive branches are provided no power or authority by the Constitution to impose any nature or degree of healthcare on citizens.

    Forcibly infusing substances into the person of a citizen is irrefutably an “…unreasonable…seizure…” and constitutes nullification of the right of a citizen “…to be secure in their persons,….”

    Actions of tyranny and dictatorship by any governmental level are illegally assumed entirely outside of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

    Constitutional rights, freedoms, privileges and immunities cannot be nullified by legislation.

    That communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs) in America suffer a rabid, psychotic desire for power and omnipotence, does not confer said power and omnipotence on them as licitly derived from the U.S. Constitution.

    “You can’t handle the truth.”

    – Colonel Jessup

    You can’t handle the truth of the scope and breadth of American freedom. You can’t handle the fact that individuals are provided maximal freedom by the Constitution and Bill of Rights, while government is severely limited and restricted merely to the role of providing security and infrastructure in order to facilitate the maximal freedom of individuals.

    Freedom and Self-Reliance

    Individuals constitute the collective Sovereign while government is merely the Subject of the Sovereign, its concierge, its slave.

    4th Amendment

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

  10. It is hard for me to wrap my mind around the idea that we can be forced to participate in an experiment. When someone chooses to participate in experimental research we ask them to sign informed consent. At this point I don’t think we have enough information or are even allowed to have enough information, to make an informed decision about taking the vaccine.

    It is completely unethical for anyone to suggest that people should be punished for not participating in an experiment.

  11. The 1905 decision was written by Oliver Wendell Holmes. He also wrote a decision that a woman he considered to be an idiot could be sterilized,based upon his 1905 ruling. The
    Mass. law only required a fine, not a compulsory vaccine.So, the expansive understanding of a eugenicist’s precedent from over a century ago seems bizarre to me. Also, these are experimental gene therapies, not vaccines as legally defined by law. The FDA specifically refused to do systematic studies following injection, in violation of rational scientific practice. So, there is no rigorous investigation of these injection outcomes, which VAERS reports to be over 9000 deaths and thousands of injuries. Informed consent, as required
    by the Nuremberg Code, is thus rendered impossible. Leana Wen is one of the World Economic Forum’s “Young Global Leaders” and is faithfully in sync with the “Great Reset”
    agenda, which is explicitly “transhumanist”. The sale of aborted children’s body parts for chimeric experiments by her “Planned Parenthood” attests to this. A glance at the WEF
    “Strategic Partners” sees Astra Zeneca, J&J, Pfizer, Wellcome Trust, Pfizer, Google, Facebook, Blackrock, Goldman Sachs, HSBC, IBM, JP Morgan Chase, Open Society Foundations and numerous other giant corporations. Morgan Stanley, mentioned above, is one, and is leading the way to the “Private-Public” “New Normal” governance which
    sees “Community Health” specified by the State enforced by “Strategic Partners”. The web of censorship, cancelling, propaganda, surveillance and outright lies are all intrinsic to the neutralization of our autonomy as human beings. Our protection is in the Principles of Natural Law, upon which our legal heritage is based. It is those Principles which must
    be vigorously asserted in the face of the “New Normal” tyranny being imposed upon our people.

    1. Smallpox had, I think, a 30% mortality rate amongst the young. While it’s arguable that the state can force people to take a vaccine, the state has to prove that they must have people take the vaccine. COVID’s CFR is very low, and it’s at least as lethal as the flu if you’re healthy. COVID is a selective killer of those at the end of their life that are already very ill. The government forcing a young person to take the (experimental) vaccine, when they have near-zero risk profile, seems incredibly unethical and dangerous. Not even in the same room as smallpox or polio.

  12. How very nazi of them. As a jewish person this country is scaring the hell out of me. What happened to America?

  13. It needs to be HARDER to murder innocent babies instead of aborting them, and selling their parts.

  14. If the government or any other entity forces (against their will) an individual take the vaccine and that individual suffers permanent damage or it results in their death, wouldn’t that make those entities liable for damages?

    1. You mean as in noblesse oblige? As when in _The Iliad_, Sarpedon tells a countryman to be heroic by “tak[ing] our stand amid the foremost.”

      Nah. Heroic responsibility went out with the lie that Western civilization is racist.

  15. Dr. Wen wants people to be forced to take an experimental vaccine to “save lives.” Why didn’t she want to force women to use non-experimental birth control to you know, “save lives”? Did she not believe it should be hard for women to get pregnant that didn’t want to get pregnant? Effing hypocrite.

  16. Fauci: It is a ludicrous right-wing conspiracy theory that the government supports vaccine mandates.

    Also Fauci: We support vaccine mandates in private businesses, public schools, and by states. We think there should be more vaccine mandates. We support social media censorship of messages that we disapprove of, even though they may be true.

    1. You caught him! This is the type of thing that has destroyed trust in government.

    2. Prove Dr. Fauci said these things. Provide a source, or admit you are repeating something you heard on Tucker, Hannity, or one of the other morons you are devoted to .

  17. The root of the problem lies with the question, what is the government’s purview?

    Is it the government’s job to force anyone to receive a vaccination, or any other medication, into their bodies? Is it the government’s job to coordinate with social media in order to censor private citizens sharing any information that runs contrary to the official government line, regardless of whether it’s true or not? Is it the government’s job to punish anyone, or create a caste system as pertains to the use of public spaces, or public education, in order to force compliance?

    I took the Covid vaccine because I have asthma, and one of my triggers is respiratory infections. I’m high risk. After my second dose, I experienced two days of tachycardia, where my heart rate hovered at a racing 116, alternately revving to 125. I was so exhausted that I stayed in bed. I didn’t brush my teeth or hair. I only dragged myself out to make sure my son was fed, and to deal with the rattle snake he found in our backyard. Because of course there would be a rattle snake in my backyard the day that I’m wiped out with a 125 bpm. My doctor said not to worry about it, because it was such a common side effect. He said I only had to to go to the ER if it “bothered me.” Only a rattle snake bothered me enough to get me out of bed. If I didn’t suffer any permanent damage, then I’ll gladly take a couple of days of total and complete lethargy and tachycardia, but I’d sure like to know for sure.

    Pretending that it’s weird to be concerned about these side effects is disingenuous and insulting.

    There is no way I’d agree to this shot for my kid, who is 11 and an extremely low risk category for Covid itself. I’d want to wait and see how well it’s tolerated. Wait for more data on any long term effects on the millions of us who took the vaccine.

    This is an Emergency Use Authorization vaccine. Clinical trials in general cannot encompass the myriad combinations of genes, healthy, nutrition, and other physiological variables that make up the entire population of the country. When a vaccine or mediation is released to the general public, that’s when you really see what unintended consequences can pop up.

    This vaccine is an important weapon in our arsenal to fight this virus that likely escaped from a lap studying gain of function and allegedly the weaponization of coronaviruses. But it’s not as mild as a tentatus shot.

    No one should be forced to receive anything into their bodies. No one should be made a second class citizen if they don’t. What is this, the medical version of The Handmaid’s Tale? The point of the vaccine is to protect yourself, so that you can function in a world with the contagion.

    1. Karen,
      I’m sorry you had tachycardia. It is unnerving.

      Tachycardia is associated with hypomagnesia:

      It wouldn’t surprise me if the vaccine depleted your magnesium a bit.

      I have had occasional bouts of tachycardia and was able to slow my heart rate by getting extra magnesium.

      Hope you are feeling better!

      1. The bottom line is that Karen doesn’t know why she had tachycardia, which is why she should have gone to the ER or a doctor’s office. She should have had some blood work done and an EKG at least. She cannot say that tachycardia was caused by the vaccination.

        1. http://www.cdc.gov › coronavirus › 2019-ncov Tachycardia is NOT listed as a side-effect of the COVID vaccine. The post is from June 24th, so I doubt Karen’s story about her doctor being blase’ about her having tachycardia.

      2. Thanks, Prairie Rose! I only had tachycardia for a couple of days. My doctor said it was a really common, well known side effect of this vaccine, and that many of his patients experienced it.

        1. Karen,
          I am glad you are feeling better. It is an unnerving, worrisome feeling. I was scared my situation would go badly south, so it was a relief that magnesium lotion and some chewable magnesium brought my heartrate back to normal.

    2. The Left’s position on this issue is somewhat ironic – especially coming from a person associated with Planned Parenthood. No loner my body, my choice?

    3. Karen: you are not qualified to discourage people from getting vaccinated. You neither have the education nor licensure to contradict the opinions or recommendations of physicians and public health officials. You are not qualified by virtue of legal training to offer your opinions about the rights or responsibilities of citizens and government in dealing with a public health crisis either. It is the height of arrogance and ignorance for you to even think you have a right to an opinion contrary to that of someone like Dr. Fauci, but this is just more of what Trump has done to this country: caused dumbass believers to question science, to believe they have an equal right to an opinion on matters of science, to question the motives of government and to disregard facts (like the Big Lie). All of this is due to Trump’s massive ego and his inability to accept the harsh truth that he did a lousy job, he botched everything, including the pandemic and the economy, and the majority of Americans voted him out of office. Therefore, government must be evil, their motives must be bad, and anyone who contradicts Trump is bad, like Dr. Fauci.

      Government, both state and local, has always had the authority to quarantine people with contagious disease. They used to hang a sign on the front door of houses of people with things like typhoid and other contagious diseases. Persons inside the household could not leave until they either recovered, had to be hospitalized or died. Food and medicine were brought to them, but they were not free to go around infecting other people. People like Typhoid Mary, who was a real person, and who was an asymptomatic carrier of typhoid, were banned from handling food, and when Typhoid Mary ignored public health orders and kept on working in restaurant kitchens, she was taken to one of the Brother Islands in New York to live to protect the public health of New York.

      Karen: here’s a little dead giveaway that everything you say comes from alt-right media: they are supporting Trump’s attacks on Dr. Fauci. Last weekend, Trump led a chant of “lock him up” against Dr. Fauci. See, Trump has no real message or record to run on, so he has to have a foil: it was Hilary Clinton, and now, it’s Dr. Fauci and only because Dr. Fauci made Trump look like the incompetent loser he really is by contradicting his lies. Kristi Noem and other Republican syncophants call the vaccine the “Fauci ouchie”. How clever. How stupid. They lie about the “government” going door to door to force vaccine on people. That is done by volunteer community groups who go door to door and offer the vaccine. They have a nearby van with nurses ready to give the shot, but they are not employed by the government. But, hey, never let a little lie get in the way of feeding red meat to the ignorant–keep stirring them up–keep convincing them they are “victims” of the “deep state” that is “forcing” vaccination.

      And, I don’t believe your little story about the doctor leaving it up to you to go to the ER. Tachycardia is NOT a recognized side-effect of the vaccine. And, according to you, you couldn’t get out of bed or otherwise engage in activities of daily living, including personal hygiene, so the tachycardia WAS bothering you. Your story doesn’t add up. Also, if you really care about your child, you’ll get him vaccinated. The Delta variant is spreading among children, too, and some of them are dying. You don’t have the medical sophistication to contradict the opinions of pediatricians, either. The sad truth is, you think you do. That’s what Trump has done to this country.

      No, government cannot force anyone to be vaccinated, but what it can and should do is limit the ability of people who refuse vaccination to unhindered mingling with those who are vaccinated, because this spreads COVID. The more it spreads, the more chances for mutations that could be even more deadly. No one has the right to threaten the country’s public health and possibly even our entire future. The long-term effects of COVID aren’t fully understood because it’s not been around that long, but some victims do have long-term organ damage. Vaccination has already made a dramatic difference in reducing deaths and illness, but the numbers are creeping back up, and it’s the misinformation by alt-right media that is partly responsible. Areas where infections are raging are in Trump country mostly.

      1. It is the height of arrogance and ignorance for you to even think you have a right to an opinion…

        Bwahahahahahaha! That should be tattooed on your forehead and then photograph you as the poster child of the totalitarian left.

        1. Olly, I don’t bother to read that hysterical anti-semite’s posts any more. They’re so full of lies why bother? Did she really opine I don’t have the right to an opinion, without any irony?

          1. Oh, yes and more.

            but this is just more of what Trump has done to this country: caused dumbass believers to question science, to believe they have an equal right to an opinion on matters of science, to question the motives of government and to disregard facts (like the Big Lie).

            Damn that Trump, encouraging citizens to question science, or the motives of government. sarc/off

            The funny thing is, she is attracted to your posts like no other. Opposites really do attract. Keep up they great posts!

            1. There is a minority who are encouraging people to question scientists, the motives of their political patrons, and their journolistic publishers. Generally speaking, the consensus. And to be more responsive to science in its diverse and developing observations and conclusions in a near-frame of reference: probable rather than plausible, and a conditional risk management framework.

              1. There is a minority who are encouraging people to question scientists, the motives of their political patrons, and their journolistic publishers.

                That should be a majority. Scientists, engineers, experts in their respective fields, are not infallible. The medical student that graduated last in his class is still called doctor. Appeal to Authority is a logical fallacy, yet it is a tried and true tactic used on the American people that are gullible enough to accept it. We should question everything, gather evidence so that we can make reasonable decisions.

      2. What government “can and should do is limit the ability of people who refuse vaccination to unhindered mingling with those who are vaccinated . . .”

        Every point in your second paragraph (which is proper government policy) contradicts that sentence. The government has no right to quarantine or “limit” *healthy* individuals. Such a policy is a desire to punish those who refuse to obey the “Higher Authorities.”

        “[I]t’s the misinformation by alt-right media that is partly responsible. Areas where infections are raging are in Trump country mostly.”

        That’s just false. By far, the greatest “vaccine hesitancy” is among Blacks and Latinos.

        1. No one’s trying to “punish” anyone, but what about people who aren’t Trump followers and who don’t want to get sick or die from COVID? Like me, for instance. I don’t want to get sick or see my family members get sick, either. Don’t vaccinated people have the right to expect government to take reasonable steps to protect their future health? COVID is spread by people. Multiple colleges & universities are denying class admission to those who refuse vaccination, as are many businesses. Governments are still requiring masks to enter public transportation or public buildings. You may have the right to refuse vaccination, but you don’t have the right to live as though you don’t pose a risk to others, especially when the reasons are not valid.

          And, if you look at a map of the US overall, the highest number of infections and deaths are in Trump Country. Blacks are leery of vaccination because the government used to experiment on them to their detriment and without their consent. There was a syphilis study done on black men (at Tuskeegee, I think), in which the victims were intentionally denied antibiotic treatment just to study the natural course of syphilis, what symptoms it causes and how long it takes to die. Of course, there was no informed consent. Henrietta Lacks’s cancerous tumor was taken, without permission, at Johns Hopkins, to create an immortal cell line to study the efficacy of chemotherapy and other drugs. Her cells are still alive decades later, and are referred to as the HeLac immortal cell line. Her family only recently learned about this. She was black. Latinos are afraid because many of them are illegal and want to stay under the radar. They are afraid that if they give an address, the government will deport them. The point being that blacks and Hispanics aren’t refusing vaccination because of lies–there are other reasons, which can be overcome. However, the Trump followers’s excuse for refusing vaccination is based on lies they hear on alt-right media, distrust of science and government, coupled with a desire to try to derail Joe Biden’s presidency. Those are NOT valid reasons.

          1. Don’t vaccinated people have the right to expect government to take reasonable steps to protect their future health?

            Make up your mind, either the vaccines are effective or they are not. If they are effective, then any other government action is unreasonable, because the vaccinated don’t have to be concerned about their future health being affected by the unvaccinated. If they are ineffective, then vaccine mandates are unreasonable. Which is it?

            1. “Which is it?”

              It’s both, or neither — depending on the day of the week and which desire needs to be satisfied.

              C’mon, Olly. Get with the program. Consistency is only for the unwashed masses. The Higher Authorities are beyond such bourgeois logic.

              1. C’mon, Olly. Get with the program. Consistency is only for the unwashed masses.

                Yeah, however I’m not as Kant described as under self-incurred tutelage. I was taught to think for myself, you know, ask questions, use logic and reason. So if I’m being told that I need an experimental vaccine so that people that are vaccinated don’t get sick, then the obvious question is why, they’re vaccinated? It would be a choice I’m making to risk my health, not theirs. Same goes for mask mandates. If you believe masks are effective, and you’re concerned about your health, then wear a mask. I happen to believe every law-abiding citizen should own and know how to use a firearm safely. Using their ahem, logic, it would be perfectly reasonable to use the force of government to achieve that. This is what you get when a large percentage of our population has no idea what rights they have that didn’t come from government.

          2. “Don’t vaccinated people have the right to expect government to take reasonable steps to protect their future health?”

            You mean the vaccine does *not* protect you?

            That is precisely the type of contradictory, public health message that has some people wondering: What the hell is going on?

          3. “I don’t want to get sick or see my family members get sick, either.”

            Then stay home. If you are vaccinated, what are you worried about?

            The Science says that T-cells of previously infected people are chugging along quite happily upwards of 8 months, could be for longer.

            1. But, they don’t know how long immunity lasts, and even if you’ve been vaccinated, you can still get COVID, but you are highly unlikely to die or end up on a ventilator. Nevertheless, there have been a small handful of vaccinated people who still died from COVID. Eventually, with enough replication of the virus, there will be a resistant strain that current vaccines don’t cover. This is the point.

              If anyone should stay home, it’s people like you who have been indoctrinated to question science, question government and question everything but Trump.

              1. But, they don’t know…This is the point.

                And you have every right to choose to allow the government to experiment on you. The government has no right to force that experiment on anyone. By the way hypocrite, you rabidly opposed government if it involved anything the Trump administration did. That’s opposing political science.

              2. ” you are highly unlikely to die or end up on a ventilator.”

                Yep, you are right, I am highly unlikely to die or end up on a ventilator. My demographics indicate that chance is fairly low anyway, and, I’m trying to eat healthfully, keep active, go outside, and take targeted supplements–all of which further lower my risk.

                “indoctrinated to question science”

                Good. Science is supposed to be questioned as truth is sought.

                “Question government”

                Good. They should be questioned. You believe their assertions about WMDs?

                “question everything but Trump.”

                Um. I did. You forgot I did not vote for him either time.

                Since when did it become not okay to ask questions?

              3. By all means, let’s not question the gub’ment. Do as they say. Always. The gub’ment wouldn’t lie to you.

                Don’t be a Dum dum, Natacha.

          4. The Left has a very selective memory. It was only last fall that cretins such as Cuomo, Harris, and Biden undermined public trust in the vaccine.

            I guess that if you have a “D” after your name, “science” is malleable.

          5. “[T]he Trump followers’s excuse for refusing vaccination [includes] a desire to try to derail Joe Biden’s presidency.”

            Sally, a staunch Republican, is sitting at home wondering whether to take the vaccine:

            “Let’s see. If I do get vaccinated, it might protect me along with my loved ones who are not vaccinated. On the other hand, if I don’t get vaccinated, I can topple a president.”

            Remind me, again, who the conspiracy theorists are.

                1. To give the devil her due: Sometimes, she’s a treasure (at least to me). She’s like a tank: Bold, unrelenting, a crystal-clear purpose. She’s on the wrong side. But sometimes you have to admire the enemy’s weapons.

      3. Natacha

        “It is the height of arrogance and ignorance for you to even think you have a right to an opinion contrary to that of someone like Dr. Fauci…”

        And there in a nutshell, we have the Lefty mindset – according to Natacha, Karen is not allowed a contrary opinion.

        Natacha, you can make your statement because you are in the U.S. which supports your right to your opinion – no matter how stupid.

        1. Thoroughly impressed with the number of unmitigated fools here on the Turley blog.


      4. Natch said: “this is just more of what Trump has done to this country: caused dumbass believers to question science, to believe they have an equal right to an opinion on matters of science.”
        I suppose your view is genuine, but it is wrong. Science as an approach to understanding the world in contrast to being a dogmatic religion, thrives on skepticism and contrary opinions.

        To give you a clear example, Copernicus was a Catholic canon who, by your standards, was disqualified from having an opinion about the solar system. Francis Bacon was a lawyer. Roger Bacon a Franciscan Friar, Henry Cavendish just a very odd wealthy recluse with unusual interests. James Hutton trained as a physician but learned many other things.

        Science belongs to anybody with the wit and curiosity to take it up. Anyone has a right to form an opinion, but in science he must be able to defend it as well as say it.

        There is no priesthood to whom we must offer all deference.

        We can feel comfortable disagreeing with Fauci and anyone else. If you want to attack, attack the ideas with better ideas; don’t expect us to bow to anyone.

        1. Richard Feynman lectured the National Science Teachers Association. The topic: What is Science? He had this lecture in a book of lectures but I found it on the net. http://www.feynman.com/science/what-is-science/

          Young, I think your answer “Science belongs to anybody with the wit and curiosity to take it up.” is along his line of thought. It’s a simple lecture that I post to you in order to say your job was well done. I didn’t post it to Natacha because her mind is closed and therefore to her science doesn’t exist.

          1. Thanks! I admire Feynman and have read some of his books and still watch some of his talks on the internet. I liked the one on the double slit experiment especially. He was a great man with boundless imagination.

          2. I just read his talk and liked it. I noted this “Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.” You are free to doubt experts and look at the evidence for yourself and look to experience.

            A couple things of a personal nature jumped out. He described his father’s telling him that everything, including him, is powered by the sun. I have done the same with my grandson, most recently watching ducks on a lake and telling him they were powered by the sun and if he could make a mechanical duck that could paddle around it probably would be powered by the sun as well. The probably is because we now get some energy from nuclear reactions, nuclear power plants and geothermal power which, of course, gets heat from nuclear decay in the depths of the earth.

            The other thing I liked was that he had a lab where he did sort of experiments when he was a kid. I didn’t know that. But I had one too and I suspect I caused more of a ruckus with mine than he did with his or he would have mentioned it.

            All and all, it was a humorous and entertaining talk that made clear what science is really about.

            By the way, he really doesn’t like the “science says” approach to settling issues. Nor do I.


            1. By the way, I am not implying that I learned as much with my childhood lab as Feynman did with his. I doubt that would be possible. He was brilliant. What I mostly learned–and some folks insisted on it–was Don’t Do It Again.

              1. “What I mostly learned–and some folks insisted on it–was Don’t Do It Again.”

                Same here. Years ago chemistry sets contained much more dangerous components, plus there are always household chemicals one could add. We mixed up a bunch of chemicals that exploded in a finished garage and set fire to what it landed on, drapes, couch, etc. It had a low flash point so when we put the small fires out they relit but the things it landed on fortunately had higher flash point, so we didn’t burn the house down.

                It was useful then and later. I learned to prepare a site, be aware and think of what could happen. It was an important experience because that experience early in life taught me how to do things safely.

                1. Sounds like that experience taught you to light things on fire, not do things safely.

                  1. Anonymous the Stupid, you can’t read, think, or act intelligently.

                    I said: “It was an important experience because that experience early in life taught me how to do things safely.” Your deceit is clearly seen with your comment.

                    1. “okey dokey sparky”

                      Finally, a glint of intelligence from an otherwise ignorant person known as Anonymous the Stupid. Did you ask your mom for help figuring out this answer?

                    2. Allan goes for the mom jokes right away, breaking out the big guns in the genius repartee he was just so born to inhabit.

                    3. “Allan goes for the mom jokes right away, breaking out the big guns in the genius repartee he was just so born to inhabit.”

                      OK, maybe it wasn’t your mother. Maybe it was your uncle, brother or another kid down the block whose next stop is to be your roommate in the mental hospital. There has to be a reason for a humorous comment coming from a dolt like you.

                2. S. Meyer– That was great! So you knew even as a kid that actual, hands-on experience opens the door to thinking scientifically. Anyone can read a book, but actually getting the chemicals and seeing what you can do is a wholly richer, more informative and sometimes more dangerous venture. The risks are worth the rewards and I wish kids could still get chemistry sets. Mine was a Chemcraft though Chemcraft would not have recognized or approved the version I had after a number of additions. Your style of thinking and basing your conclusions on actual evidence while being willing to change as evidence changed had me wondering if you had an early background in hands-on discovery. It shows. Nothing teaches and shapes one so well as a few failed experiments followed by discovery and success.

                  1. By the way, I thought I was going to burn the house down by accident too. The experience does inspire prudence.

                    1. Thanks for your comments. I’m glad to hear that another almost burned a house down while learning. Failure is common to those that have entrepreneurial ,scientific spirit, and curiosity .The others don’t venture far from home base and require others to preplan their lives.

                      Chemistry is neglected yet it is a common occurrence in maintaining a household, as is physics (don’t drop the baby on its head), mathematics (balancing a checkbook) along with a lot of other scientific disciplines. Most things we do are linked to STEM so the parent should be a major educator of the child. That is what Feynman’s father did. He didn’t teach static knowledge, rather he used everything around him to point to the physical commonalities that surround us.

        2. Young, I decided to stay a few seconds and look at the site http://www.feynman.com .

          There is a video demonstrating Feynman’s humor. Knowing you, you probably read some of his books like I and heard the story before. However, this viewing will be in Feynman’s own voice and drums.

        3. “If you want to attack, attack the ideas with better ideas; don’t expect us to bow to anyone.”

          Well said. And very Jeffersonian:

          “Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”

          1. I love that quote. The useful idiots however will claim it comes from slave-owing, old white guy, and therefore it must be racist.

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