The Biden Administration Goes To War With The “Non-Vacs”: Is Coercion the Answer?

Below is my column in the Hill on the shift from reasoned consent to coerced consent in the campaign for vaccinations. The push by the Biden Administration for private companies to enforce mandates and restrictions has increased in the last week. There is a high likelihood of a new round of litigation as pressure builds for new mandates and even lockdowns.

Just before this column ran, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky was asked by Fox host Bret Baier “Are you for mandating a vaccine on a federal level?” She responded “That’s something that I think the administration is looking into.” Later she reversed herself by saying “I was referring to mandates by private institutions and portions of the federal government. There will be no federal mandate.” It was a telling response because she was asked about a federal mandate directly. She now says she meant to say a privately enforced mandates is what they are thinking about. The reversal may be a problematic as the original. It would confirm that the Biden Administration is using private companies as a type of direct surrogate for a public mandate.

Here is the column:

They didn’t get vaccinated.” Those words from President Biden summed up why his administration made a critical shift in its COVID policies, from mask recommendations to mandatory shots for federal workers. And that represents a third stage of government policy, toward a more confrontational approach to “them” — the increasingly demonized unvaccinated class that is roughly half of America.

But this stage could face legal challenges in coming weeks, as citizens and some states push back on mandates.

This month was a clear break from persuasion and a step toward coercion in dealing with those who refuse to be vaccinated. Even the normally staid Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is ramping up its rhetoric, declaring that the “war has changed” due to the Delta variant. For some, however, there is concern that Biden’s “they” is a declaration of war on them.

Clearly, there is a rapidly diminishing level of communication between the “vacs” and “non-vacs.”

Stage One: Reasoned consent

Until recently, the Biden administration relied largely on what could be called the “reasoned consent” model. Not unreasonably, it assumed that Americans would want the vaccine, given the dire consequences of being unvaccinated. For many of us, it took little persuasion. My family and I took the earliest possible date for vaccinations. But this first stage was in some regards a failure: While more than 85 percent of the high-risk population of older Americans have been vaccinated, roughly half of the wider population has not been fully vaccinated.

A myriad of reasons exist: distrust of government programs among some minorities and conservatives; people who previously had COVID-19 considering themselves immune; those concerned with religious or medical issues. Billions spent on state and federal outreach programs failed to penetrate that wall of resistance.

Stage Two: Induced consent

As long lines disappeared at vaccine centers, it became clear that many citizens have come to distrust the media and the government on this, as on so many issues. Anyone raising questions about the virus — even its origins — was censored by Big Tech, and politicians weaponized the wedge issue for their own purposes. Such censorship continued this week even for those merely suggesting a “pause” to examine the data. For people already distrustful of the government, the censorship and overheated rhetoric only confirm their suspicions.

Government officials then shifted from reasoned to induced or compensated consent. In Ohio, $1 million lottery prizes were offered to those willing to take the shots; other states offered free metro or free museum passes. It didn’t work — but that didn’t stop President Biden this week from telling states to use federal funds to offer $100 for every person who consents to take a shot. It is the monetization of vaccination under the logic that those not motivated by self-preservation will be persuaded by a C-note.

The government and the media, however, remain unwilling to engage vaccine resisters beyond stereotyping them as “Trumpers” or pandemic-spreading morons. That includes censoring questions and opposing discussion of whether the level of statistical risk should leave this to be a matter of individual choice, as with other viruses and illnesses.

Stage Three: Coerced consent

We are now entering the “coerced consent” stage. Unable to persuade or purchase consent, many are arguing to make it difficult to be gainfully employed or functionally active without proof of vaccination. It is a type of de facto pandemic passport. After indicating the administration was considering a federal vaccine mandate, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said this week, “I was referring to mandates by private institutions and portions of the federal government. There will be no federal mandate.”

Unwilling to face the legal or political challenges of mandating a vaccination program, the Biden administration has actively encouraged companies to bar unvaccinated people from planes, restaurants and other venues. The danger is that using companies to censor opposing views and restrict people can amount to a type of government-by-surrogate, a shadow state.

There clearly are good reasons why many companies and schools demand vaccinations to rejoin workplaces or classrooms. As expected, those rules have been upheld, including a recent favorable ruling for Indiana University.

More concerning are those calls to use mandates to make life miserable for anyone who still has doubts. German Chancellor Angela Merkel told her citizens that they will have fewer “freedoms” until they consent. Some in the media have echoed these calls, and some private organizations are following the same strategy. The NFL, for example, has been openly making life “a living hell” for NFL players who prefer to be tested but not vaccinated.

For the most part, the motivation behind government and private mandates are hard to litigate. Courts tend to defer to measures ostensibly protecting others from risk of illness; even in criminal cases, the government has been allowed to conduct “pretextual traffic stops” if it can cite an objective basis.

There may be new legal challenges ahead, however. First, those with religious or medical concerns can challenge mandated vaccination programs. CNN’s Don Lemon this week called for barring unvaccinated people from offices and businesses, insisting “It has nothing to do with liberty. You don’t have the freedom and the liberty to put other people in jeopardy.” In truth, there are constitutional questions when you force people to take medications or vaccinations that violate their religious beliefs or that fail to satisfy a rational basis.

States also are moving to counter private mandates or to bar mandatory masking rules; Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) just signed an executive order allowing parents to ignore masking orders for their children in the state’s public schools. That could force the hand of the Biden administration on implementing federal mandates or executive orders — a conflict that would raise core federalism issues.

The federal government is on shaky ground in mandating hood behavior or inactivity. In 2012 in NFIB v. Sebelius, Chief Justice John Roberts declared that “Construing the Commerce Clause to permit Congress to regulate individuals precisely because they are doing nothing would open a new and potentially vast domain to congressional authority.”

The greatest danger with the coercion model is that it will further deepen our divisions and turn vaccine resistance into a type of patriotic resistance for some people. Recently, a shocking poll found that almost 50 percent of Republicans believe “patriotic Americans [might] have to take the law into their own hands.” The poll shows how many Americans are increasingly alienated from the government, the media and the established order. Conversely, some commentators on the left have declared that the unvaccinated are terrorists using “biological warfare” against the nation.

Threatening to make the lives of the unvaccinated a “living hell,” or isolating them from society, likely will do little to increase the level of vaccination — but it will do much to increase the level of alienation in our society.

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University. You can find his updates on Twitter @JonathanTurley.

313 thoughts on “The Biden Administration Goes To War With The “Non-Vacs”: Is Coercion the Answer?”

  1. Let Biden push and threaten government workers. Most of them are the ones who voted for him. They now have him.

    How’s it like living with him?

  2. https://www.axios.com/obama-plans-birthday-bash-amid-covid-concerns-26278329-43be-473d-bf16-80b025e03912.html

    Be afraid. Be very afraid. Its even more LETHAL! The Delta variant can kill! Mask up! Stay home! Get vaccinated! It’s the deadly Delta variant! Ahhhhh!

    Also, 500+ party-goers celebrating with that selfless public servant at his “summer” estate. It’s okay for them, cuz they gonna be checked for covid vax.

    Don’t be stupid, people.

  3. A medical doctor I respect put it this way: risk tolerance is an individual decision NOT a collective one.

    I do NOT take medical advice from bureaucratic frauds and liars like Tony Fauci. Check around the medical community and you will learn there is little to NO respect for Tony Fauci.

  4. Gin Up the Delta Panic

    Why? Because irrationally terrified people are easier to control.

    The central issue for a pathogen is *not* the number of cases or the transmissibility of the pathogen. If it were, then there would be a “deadly pandemic” (with the demand for more government controls) every flu and common cold season. The essential issue is the *virulence* — the ability of a pathogen to cause serious damage and to kill its host.

    So are the Delta variants more *virulent*? From everything I’ve read, the jury is still out. (Which means that this Delta panic is based on ignorance.)

    However, if India (where Delta originated) is any indication:

    The Delta mortality rate in India is barely measurable on a graph (at some 1.2%). By contrast, the 2018-2019 influenza mortality rate for the *lowest risk* category (ages 18-49) was 1.8%.

  5. Not particularly anti vaxx but here is an observation.

    This would not occur in a decent, high trust society. Unfortunately, we are neither.

    The left has denigrated our values, heroes, religion, history, race and ethnicity for a long time.

    Therefore, don’t be surprised when a large segment of society just doesn’t trust what you have to say, particularly when the issue is politicized and polarized.

    Sure, let’s force roughly half the population to take an experimental substance into their bodies. What could possibly go wrong?

    I want a divorce.

    antonio

    1. Antonio (and I love your comments) – I DON’T want a divorce. If we can’t work out our differences it doesn’t bode well for the planet at large. If we want humanity to see a 22nd century, we are going to have to work this stuff out. Either we are humans trying or we aren’t. I don’t reject leftists as sub-human. We have played out this drama before, perhaps we can do it differently this time. At the end of the day, all any of us want is to live peaceful lives.

  6. America will be better off when millions of dumb unvaccinated itShayheads die.
    From sea to shining sea.

    1. Asians have the highest vaccination rates, followed by Whites, Hispanics and Blacks. No surprise here.

      When leftists make fun of the unvaccinated, they are attacking their own base.

      Lefties are going to have to have an out for their favorite victim groups.

      antonio

    2. I guess some might hold a similar opinion for a potential ADE-induced mass die-off of the vaxxed.

  7. Mandated experimental drugs on an entire population for an infection that has a 98%+ recovery rate? No friends, the ‘official’ reaction to “The Covid” outbreak is, and has always been, a gullibility and obedience test. Nothing more.

      1. And the test subjects are the ones trying something new (an mRNA vaccine without long-term testing). In ancient times the Darwinian survival of the fittest were the ones who allowed others to test new types of foods to see the results BEFORE eating those foods themselves.

  8. Let me start by stating that my wife and I have been vaccinated. Members of my family had Covid but none died. My sister was hospitalized after testing positive and had a bad case of something. Now, this whole thing was exaggerated from the beginning, particularly by Democrats. Most of the “cases” are actually test “positives” rather than diagnosis based on symptoms. I live in one of the first counties in the nation to report cases but it has never been widespread. (None of my family live here.) Of close to a million population, some 62,000 “cases” have been reported. Not a single case has been reported in my community. Yes, people have died but some 8,000 Americans die EVERY DAY and most of them are elderly, the same group among which some 90% of “Covid deaths” have occured. The media started off using the John’s Hopkins web site, which was flawed from the beginning because they don’t use actual data but use news reports, which were often inaccurate. If the media hadn’t gone wild, there wouldn’t have been hysteria, there would have been no lockdowns and Biden wouldn’t be in the White House. And deaths from flu would be at 1000-1500 a week instead of 15-20.

    1. I have been too, and in addition I have antibodies that I apparently have had since *January 2020*. At no point have I been a threat or at risk. Zero. It’s madness with a clearly designed purpose, and that doubles the insanity. I respect people’s personal choices. This should not be a point of contention in a free society.

      Incidentally, I have decided that the trolls here are either very young or very old and very calcified in their thinking. Cracks me up whenever they try to paint our host or the many men and women here in the actual field as the REAL trolls. I know they are being paid and think they are ‘just doing their job’, but that isn’t going to fly here. A literal free speech and legal blog that boldly proclaims it largely shares opinions was probably a very stupid choice on the part of their employers.

      They really do believe we are as Neanderthal in our thinking as the kids they hire to do their dirty work, or that as very grown adults with perfectly functional brains and rafts of life experience, they will somehow convince of us anything.

  9. Reasons for vaccine hesitancy:

    – From what we have learned, the risk of COVID-19 complications to young people are nil. Absent risk factors, most young people do not feel the need to get vaccinated.
    – Young women have concerns about the vaccine’s effect on their ability to bear children, as the vaccine was rushed. As such, even those with one or two risk factors (overweight, diabetes) decline the vaccine, even if they get flu shots every year.
    – Finally, a Los Angeles Times editorial pointed this out. “Granted, many unvaccinated people, particularly Black and Latino Americans, are leery of the shots because of the government’s poor track record when it comes to their communities’ health.” (Emphasis added) The CDC and WHO have done more than enough to earn mistrust, which predictably aggravated vaccine hesitancy.

  10. Axios has reported that former President Obama is celebrating his 60th birthday on Martha’s Vineyard next weekend with 465 invited guests and 200 workers in attendance, at his estate . Reportedly, they “ask” that everyone be vaccinated and take a covid test before attending. No word if they “ask” attendees and workers to wear masks, isolate after attending and get a covid test post visit, before circulating in the general public, which may be prudent behavior as vaccinated individuals are spreading the delta variant as asymtomatic carriers.

    DC mayor Bowser has reimplemented an indoor mask mandate to take effect the day AFTER she hosted a birthday bash, part outdoors part indoors, with approximately 200 unmasked guests.

  11. I bought some Pine Sol yesterday. It says right on the bottle that it ‘kills COVID-19’. So, a floor cleaner can defeat the virus but not a vaccine? This has all gotten so out of hand it’s probably nigh on impossible to disentangle fact from fiction. That this is likely intentional, with *livelihoods*, rather than physical lives on the line, is pure insanity. I am deeply troubled by our lack of regard for one another’s well-being, and it has nothing to do with physical health or vaccination status. If this had been the case when I was a kid over something like the mumps vaccine, I doubt society would have survived. Madness.

    1. James,
      “ I bought some Pine Sol yesterday. It says right on the bottle that it ‘kills COVID-19’. So, a floor cleaner can defeat the virus but not a vaccine?”

      You can’t ingest or shoot up with floor cleaner. It will definitely kill the virus within you, the downside is you won’t live to see the results either. BUT according to Trump you should try it. He suggested it as an alternative to fighting it. Good luck with your choice.

      1. BUT…BUT….BUT…..What about freedom? If the bridge is out and the sign says so, is it still freedom to keep driving to and off the bridge?

          1. James, you’re still…driving off a bridge. The survival rate is pointless if you are still determined to drive off a bridge. What you’re suggesting is exactly how lemmings behave. Let’s follow the crowd right off the bridge, says the one standing on the edge to the others.

            1. Hey, if you’re in the one percent, you’re in there one hundred percent of the time. Lol.

              eb

          1. Iowan2,

            Those who are claiming freedom to make their own choices which involve choices that will harm others in the process. His analogy refers to being warned that a bridge is out ahead, but the argument being used is the equivalent of let people decide whether to keep on driving until you drive off a bridge. I would point out while still using fishwings analogy that many who do choose to drive off the bridge find themselves regretting it midway thru the plunge seeking sympathy for their stupid decision.

            1. “Those who are claiming freedom to make their own choices which involve choices that will harm others in the process. “

              Now we will get to another unanswered question of Svelaz’s lousy logic.

              If the vaccine protects the individual then the individual will not be harmed by the unvaccinated person.

              Explain your logic.

              SM

              1. S. Meyer,

                “ If the vaccine protects the individual then the individual will not be harmed by the unvaccinated person.—SM.

                Explain your logic.”

                You’re wrongly assuming that the vaccine is going to protect every one 100%. You know it’s not and nobody claims it will 100% protect you. The most effective vaccine is 93-96% effective. Meaning the majority of people are protected from its worst effects and prevents transmission to others.

                The whole point of having a large majority of people vaccinated is so the virus has fewer opportunities to replicate and mutate into a new variant. The threshold for that event to happen would be when 70% of the population is vaccinated. The more the better. But, with so many putting out misinformation and deliberate falsehoods about the vaccines like it will make you sterile, or it will make you magnetic, or it has microchips to track you, etc, etc, etc. more and more people buy into those falsehoods and misinformation about not being approved or having to wait for 10 years before finally being able do believe it is safe.
                Plus you have people who are misled about how bad COVID is and that it’s just like the flu who end up getting it and spreading to others unknowingly and ignorantly.

                The current surge on COVID infections and hospitalizations are 99% from the unvaccinated. The virus is spreading like wildfire among the unvaccinated and giving it more chances to mutate once again. It’s not too far fetched to assume the delta variant is reinfecting people who already had the alpha variant and hitting them quicker and getting sicker than last time.

                Those choosing to remain unvaccinated are threatening everyone else including the vaccinated because the vaccine is only 93-95% effective. Because there is increasing spread of a new variant by the unvaccinated they they are forcing others who protected themselves by getting vaccinated to lose their freedom to live normally again.

                A new vaccine resistant mutation will emerge if unvaccinated idiots keep getting themselves and others sick and then endangering every else again. If that happens it will force government to mandate everyone get vaccinated.

                1. Svelaz, you have just made an excellent argument against cars. Someone else’s car can run off the road and kill another person. Therefore, people should be forced to stop driving. That type of idea is idiotic, but that is precisely what you are espousing. We cannot eliminate all risks, so you must demonstrate the risk you are trying to abate.

                  You make a lot of statements that are falsehoods. You have made them before, but for some reason, you refuse to prove the statements you make even after others have provided evidence that your facts are mostly wrong.

                  The threat of death to a young and healthy individual was extremely low before the vaccine. With the vaccine, it is even lower. That makes what you say meaningless. However, from history, we know you will continue producing meaningless statements, errors and lies.

                  I await you to correct your incorrect facts in this post and elsewhere.

                  1. S. Meyer,

                    “ The threat of death to a young and healthy individual was extremely low before the vaccine. With the vaccine, it is even lower. ”

                    WAS low, but now the majority of people who are affected by the new variant are younger because the older folks have been vaccinated.

                    Just 25% of 12-15 year olds are fully vaccinated.

                    It’s not death that’s the issue, it’s the disruption that will ensue when more kids have to stay home from school. They still have to quarantine for nearly two weeks and if family members are unvaccinated they can end up in the hospital or miss two weeks of work. Therefore impacting the economy once again.

                    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/07/29/hospitals-in-southern-us-reporting-record-numbers-of-children-hospitalized-amid-delta-surge-though-deaths-still-extremely-rare/amp/

                    1. “WAS low, but now the majority of people who are affected by the new variant are younger because the older folks have been vaccinated.”

                      The death rate hasn’t gone up. The rate of death is low compared to earlier numbers and for the young it remains low.

                      Your own article’s headline says “Though Deaths Still Extremely Rare”

                      Death and morbidity are the issue and have always been the issue. Your IQ must be below 80.

                      SM

        1. That’s a bs analogy. You have no proof the bridge is out, just a government sign telling you it is. Lemmings will just stop and wait to be told what to do next. Critical-thinkers will stop, walk up to the bridge and assess the risk before they proceed. At this point, only lemmings are trusting the government signage.

        2. So becoming infected with a Delta variant is akin to driving off a bridge.

          And yours is the “party of science?!”

          The proper analogy: For some 99% of drivers, that bridge is actually a puny pothole.

          But I understand. Deceit, terror, and control are the order of the day. So a bridge it is.

      2. Thank you for validating my thought above regarding trolls, Svelaz. Trump isn’t capable of controlling my behavior in the world, nor is anyone else, including you.

        Conversely and bizarrely, presuming you are a grown adult, a man you have almost certainly never met seems to control the majority of yours without lifting a finger.

        You are the one that has to live in your head, so you decide if the bug in there is useful or not.

        If this comes as a double post, my apologies to the audience and the mod.

        1. James,

          “ Trump isn’t capable of controlling my behavior in the world, nor is anyone else, including you.”

          Trump may not be capable of controlling YOUR behavior, but he has been able to do so for his most ardent fans. You know the reference to the Jonestown mass suicide about drinking the kool-aid ? Trump has successfully done what those people did. Fully believe in what one individual told them to believe. The unvaccinated are a version of those people being enabled by a few nut jobs.

          Trump has the ability to influence a lot of people.

          1. . The unvaccinated are a version of those people being enabled by a few nut jobs. Like a full quarter of health care professionals? Are they all idiots?
            Just admit the CDC etal have created their own credibility gap. No one else to blame.

            1. Iowan2,

              Just because they are healthcare professionals doesn’t mean they can be ignorant too. Plus no one says healthcare professionals aren’t Trump supporters or but into the conspiracy theories influencing a lot of people.

              They can spread covid to other patients in the hospital too and patients can sue.

              Many are protesting company vaccine mandates as wrong, but they CAN do that. Plus these people don’t have to take the vaccine, they still have a choice. They can choose not to take it, but in doing so they can look for work elsewhere. Their freedom to make their own decisions is completely intact. Plenty of fast food franchises are looking for workers and they don’t require proof of vaccination…yet. Remember you don’t have a right to a job.

              1. Considering that all the vaxxes are still deployed under EUA, employers assume a lot of liability by mandating vaxxes. Even with FDA approval, they would have to tie themselves in knots to demonstrate how a COVID vaxx is necessary for most people’s jobs.

                1. Cato, employers are also liable for not putting adequate safeguards for their employees if some of their employees are vaccinated. If one dies because others refused to vaccinate the company is liable for the death.

                  Companies cannot be sued because they require vaccinated employees. They can’t force employees to get vaccinated, but the CAN give them a choice. You can continue to work by being vaccinated or choose to not vaccinate and look for work elsewhere.

                  The decision is entirely on the employee. He has his freedom to choose.

          2. “Trump may not be capable of controlling YOUR behavior, but he has been able to do so for his most ardent fans. “

            Svelaz, please don’t be foolish. Trump didn’t expend all that energy trying to get the vaccine produced so it wouldn’t be used. My friends and I all took the vaccine at the earliest possible moment.

            Once again you are spouting mistruths. Here is a video. Are you going to tell me that this video is fake?

            https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/07/joe-biden-and-kamala-harris-anti-vaxxers.php

            Now, as usual, you will run away.

            SM

            1. S. Meyer,

              “ Svelaz, please don’t be foolish. Trump didn’t expend all that energy trying to get the vaccine produced so it wouldn’t be used.”

              Trump spent a lot of energy trying to downplay the seriousness of the virus. All he did was promote a program that rushed the production of a vaccine only to sow doubt about it because it was…rushed. Even you say it wasn’t tested adequately, but Trump rushed it successfully. So, why blame the FDA for the early approval when it’s Trump who pushed for its quick approval?

              1. “. . . only to sow doubt about it because it was…rushed.”

                I believe that that “doubt” was spread by cretins such as Cuomo, Biden, Harris, and countless MSM talking heads.

              2. “Trump spent a lot of energy trying to downplay the seriousness of the virus.”

                Svelaz, try not to be so foolish and lie by telling only part of the truth.

                Initially, Trump closed America to Chinese tourists while the left played foolish political games that killed many people.

                Trump then pushed the vaccine. All of this demonstrates Trump was aggressively trying to reduce Covid risk.

                However, Trump was right. Those who died mainly were the sick and elderly, so the lockdowns he found undesirable were undesirable.

                “All he did was promote a program that rushed the production of a vaccine only to sow doubt about it because it was…rushed. ”

                My gosh. That sounds like pure ignorance. Of course, Trump rushed it because he was concerned about the virus. If he didn’t rush it, we probably would have needed to wait another 3-4 years before we had the vaccine. Your statements conflict with one another.

                The real problem has come from the left and Biden. They have sowed doubt because they have turned Covid into a political issue. You still haven’t responded to the following video.

                https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/07/joe-biden-and-kamala-harris-anti-vaxxers.php

                “Even you say it wasn’t tested adequately, but Trump rushed it successfully. So, why blame the FDA for the early approval when it’s Trump who pushed for its quick approval?”

                I never believed anyone could be as dense as you or so lacking in knowledge. You have absolutely no understanding of science, risk or logic. I might say testing is inadequate to date (absolutely true), but that doesn’t mean I don’t advocate the vaccine for the elderly and sick or anyone else who wants it.

                SM

      3. “BUT according to Trump you should try it.“

        Svelaz, that is a lie or pure Stupidity. Your choice.

        SM

        1. S. Meyer,

          No lie, Trump did suggest using disinfectant to get rid of COVID by either injection or some other form of putting disinfectant inside your body to kill it. He even suggested shoving a powerful UV light inside your body to get rid of covid.

          The whole world saw him make that suggestion.

            1. Olly, from your own link,

              “ A question that probably some of you are thinking of if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposedly we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. (To Bryan) And I think you said you’re going to test that, too. Sounds interesting, right?”

              Here he mentions the UV light and bringing it inside the body.

              Here’s him suggesting another kooky idea, injection of disinfectant.

              “ And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful.”

              It’s pretty clear he thought it would be an option.

              1. A rational person would conclude he was talking about the science behind the UV lights and disinfectants and how effective they are on the virus. Newton was attacked for his crazy theory on gravity. Penicillin was discovered because Fleming left some petri dishes uncleaned and found a mold was preventing a bacteria from spreading. Sometimes the oddest of suggestions will inspire the greatest of discoveries.

                1. With the logic we hear from Svelaz, we would have a lot of dead or very sick asthmatics on our hands. Who ever came up with the foolish idea that one could actually inhale something that would control or break an asthmatic attack? I guess people did, but they would have been jeered by Svelaz.

                2. Olly,

                  “ A rational person would conclude he was talking about the science behind the UV lights and disinfectants and how effective they are on the virus.”

                  Olly if you knew anything about ultraviolet light (UV) being used as a means to kill covid you would know that UV light causes skin cancer. He proposed a way to put it INSIDE the body.

                  Disinfectants are poison when injected into people as Trump suggested as an idea.

                  “ Sometimes the oddest of suggestions will inspire the greatest of discoveries.”

                  Very true, but Trump’s suggestions were not only odd, they were scientifically unworkable and obviously dangerous.

                  1. Who would have thought one could inject a toxic dye so that the heart and its arteries could be seen in preparation for cardiac surgery?

                    It sounded ludicrous over one-hundred years ago even though it had been done on an animal in the mid 19th century.

                    Svelaz, ignorance is not an excuse for the type of stupidity you demonstrate.

          1. “No lie”

            Total lie because you took it out of context and omitted the other statements made.

            He actually was thinking out of the box and correctly. In the past I corrected your lack of knowledge on the subject and explained the science and what has been tried and worked. You disregard everything that has been proven so that you can maintain your lies and repeat them over and over again.

            SM

      4. Sometime shortly after the comment about bleach from Trump, the tap water in my community smelled as though it came straight from a swimming pool. I received a “we don’t know what you are talking about” response from the water department. When the positives declined dramatically a few months ago, the smell of bleach is now gone. The county has a very good case fatality rate, with no one under the age of 35 dying and only one under 45.

        Just saying.

        1. DSB,

          They don’t put bleach in swimming pools. You’re confused. They put chlorine in swimming pools. Smh.

          1. “They don’t put bleach in swimming pools.”

            Svelaz, you are an idiot. People use bleach in swimming pools because, like the ‘chlorine’ bought to chlorinate pools, bleach provides the necessary chlorine. The differences in products are based on how they are bound to the inactive ingredients. Chlorine comes in 3 forms, gas, liquid and solid. Go to the elementary school and ask one of the kids for help.

            Guess what? I use salt to add chlorine to my pool, and it could be right off the table if I had enough.

            Don’t you get embarrassed at this type of ignorance?

  12. Turley seems either deliberately ignorant or naive.

    “ A myriad of reasons exist: distrust of government programs among some minorities and conservatives; people who previously had COVID-19 considering themselves immune; those concerned with religious or medical issues. Billions spent on state and federal outreach programs failed to penetrate that wall of resistance.”

    Turley should know full well why it this problem exists. It’s not just simply “distrust of government programs”. It’s the deliberate politization of the pandemic and vaccination. The very reasons why there is so much hesitancy is because of the spread of misinformation and outright falsehoods about vaccinations and the effects of COVID itself. Turley unwittingly of stupidly is party to that problem by making the argument that such misinformation and falsehoods be allowed. He rails agains censorship of such misinformation and falsehoods by private social media companies while at the same time. Laments the current situation. Turley’s arguments that such misinformation should be treated as protected speech couldn’t be more wrong. That misinformation and falsehoods are no different than yelling “fire” in a crowded theater.

    They are resulting in preventable deaths and unnecessary hospitalizations. By deliberately downplaying the severity of the situation. What is happening is the opposite of the “yelling fire in a crowded theater” and is equally as damaging. It’s now about yelling that everyone will be fine and there’s no real fire in a theater clearly being engulfed in flames. Getting vaccinated is the equivalent of being able to head to the exits while the unvaccinated are those waiting to see how bad the flames really are until it’s too late. They won’t get out until they get burned or the fire is at their feet by then the exit is no longer available.

    The government is acting as the firefighters who are pleading with those still in the theater to get out, now they are past the point of pleading, they are actively forcing those ignorant and oblivious to get out by limiting their choices.

    1. . The very reasons why there is so much hesitancy is because of the spread of misinformation and outright falsehoods about vaccinations and the effects of COVID itself.

      And the CEDC is a major source of this misinformation.

    2. It’s the deliberate politization of the pandemic and vaccination. The very reasons why there is so much hesitancy is because of the spread of misinformation and outright falsehoods about vaccinations Do you mean Kamala Harris declaring she would never use a vaccine approved by the Trump administration? If saving lives is the goal why did no every single does of vaccine go to the finite group of those most vulnerable>? Or why did the FDA delay approving emergency use(voluntary use) of the vaccine until after the Election? Tens of thousands of lives would have been saved. But the bureaucrats are driven by politics, not science.

      1. Iowan2,

        “ Do you mean Kamala Harris declaring she would never use a vaccine approved by the Trump administration?”

        Taking her declaration out of context doesn’t help your argument.

        Trump claimed the the major companies rolled out their vaccines because of operation warp speed. Most didn’t take part on that program and those that did ran the risk of having the credibility of their vaccines questioned because of Trump’s incessant lying. There was a reason why she made that statement.

        “ If saving lives is the goal why did no every single does of vaccine go to the finite group of those most vulnerable>?”

        Because the Trump administration had no real strategy on how to distribute the vaccines. It wasn’t until Biden got into office that a coherent distribution strategy was implemented and did prioritized getting to the most vulnerable first. Remember when those 65 and younger couldn’t get the vaccine for a while?

        “ Or why did the FDA delay approving emergency use(voluntary use) of the vaccine until after the Election?”

        Well, because they were making sure the approval process was being followed. I thought most didn’t trust the vaccines because it was …rushed. Now you question why it wasn’t rushed? So it’s bad that it wasn’t rushed, and it’s bad if it was rushed. Right?

        This is exactly why there is so much hesitancy and doubt, because Trump supporters are constantly contradicting themselves on the reasons why people should be skeptical of the vaccines.

        It’s politicians who are putting party before country and idiot pundits like Tucker Carlson and Laura Inghraham spreading disinformation while being safely vaccinated.

        Yes it is being deliberately politicized by republican Trump supporters.

        It’s ironic that the states that are having the most cases are republicans states with the lowest vaccination rates. Even in Missouri Trump supporters are sneaking around getting vaccinated because they are realizing they are getting rightly blamed for the new outbreaks.

          1. S. Meyer,

            As I said context matters this is what she actually said,

            “ If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.”

            The only phrase conservatives focused on was the last one. “But if Donald Trump tells is that we should take it, I’m not taking it.

            Here’s what Biden actually said,

            “ Americans have had to endure President Trump’s incompetence and dishonesty, when it comes to testing and personal protective equipment. We can’t afford to repeat those fiascos when it comes to a vaccine. … Let me be clear: I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don’t trust Donald Trump, and at this moment, the American people can’t either. Last week, Senator Harris and I laid out three questions this administration’s going to have to answer to assure the American people that politics will not play a role whatsoever in the vaccine process. If Donald Trump can’t give answers and the administration can’t give answers to these three questions, the American people should not have confidence.”

            https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/23/tiktok-posts/biden-harris-doubted-trump-covid-19-vaccines-not-v/

            Your link didn’t even quote the entire statements they made.

            1. Biden and Harris continuously made people fearful of the vaccine. They changed their mind around the time they took office.

              They made numerous comments and your reply doesn’t address any of those.

              SM

              1. S. Meyer,

                “ Biden and Harris continuously made people fearful of the vaccine. They changed their mind around the time they took office.

                They made numerous comments and your reply doesn’t address any of those.”

                No they didn’t. It’s funny that you don’t post their full comments. If they have made numerous comments post them in full. Prove me wrong.

                You asked for proof of context. I gave you exactly what you wanted. You’re just playing your usual game of moving the goal posts.

                1. You provided nothing of value. It didn’t deal with his statements.

                  There are too many snippets proving Biden negative on the vaccine. At one time it was a daily feature.

                  I will not attempt to prove things to you. That is impossible. You provided a CRT paper and denied a student wrote it. When I quoted from the bio in the paper, that he was a student, you still denied it. I had to repeat myself again and again. If in the future the same discussion came up you would probably still deny a student wrote the paper.

                  You are given proof and then you lie the next time you post. There is no way to deal with an ignorant liar.

        1. Well, because they were making sure the approval process was being followed.
          You’re just making up wild rationalizations absent a single fact. The FDA was not waiting for any information. Approval before the Elections would have save Dementia Joe from the elder abuse meted out by his wife.
          The evidence abounds that bureaucrats are lousy governing bodies. Hiding behind science and refusing to do risk benefit analysis is no better than rolling dice to make decisions.

        2. Such ignorance to think that those who refuse to be vaccinated are Trump supporters. Do some research instead of spouting lies.

  13. The ever-shifting justifications for the coercion and vitriol leveled at the unvaccinated are troubling.

    First, we were assured that the vaccines have Saddam Hussein election results levels of effectiveness at preventing people from contracting and spreading the virus. Ok–if that is so, why does it matter that some people choose not to be vaccinated? By the vaccine advocates’ own assertions, they pose essentially no risk to the vaccinated, who are incredibly well-protected by this wonder drug.

    Then, our ever-inconsistent public health experts said, “Hm, well, maybe the vaccine is not so effective at preventing people from getting or spreading the illness (after all, in a recent outbreak in Massachusetts, 74% percent of the ill were vaccinated–a slightly higher percentage, indeed, than the vaccination rate for the Commonwealth as a whole), but it protects very well against severe illness.” Ok–but again, how does that justify forcing the unvaccinated to take the vaccine, or any other coercive measures against the unvaccinated? If the vaccine is essentially a therapeutic, that reduces the severity of the illness but doesn’t reduce its spread, then why can’t each individual decide if they need that therapeutic?

    The core problem is that President Biden and the Democratic Party more broadly have tied themselves so thoroughly to the vaccines that they cannot allow any critical thinking to interfere with the relentless push to vaccinate more and more people. One could see this clearly in a recent CNN tweet: “Vaccination alone won’t stop the rise of variants and in fact could push the evolution of strains that evade their protection, researchers warned. They said people need to wear masks and take other preventative steps until almost everyone is vaccinated.” How does that make sense? If vaccination doesn’t stop the rise in variants, and could actually lead to the emergence of vaccine resistant variants (which is, of course, consistent with basic evolutionary science), then why would reaching the point when “almost everyone is vaccinated” change anything? Indeed, if it is the case that vaccination pushes the evolution of strains that evade their protection, then that would seem to suggest that the vaccines should be used as sparingly as possible–only for the elderly and those with underlying health conditions that significantly increase the likelihood of an adverse outcome from COVID. That way we protect those people while limiting the risks of creating vaccine resistant (and potentially more dangerous) strains.

    But under the current political discourse, one is simply not allowed to ask these sorts of questions, even though they are obvious from what is being said. The only approved perspective is: “Yes, the vaccines are wonderful, and we should not stop until every single person gets the vaccine.”

  14. My own elderly (but in great shape) aunt claimed that people who are not vaccinated are putting HER LIFE AT RISK, and repeated the leftist mantra that they are like terrorists, lol. This shocked me as my aunt is a fairly moderate democrat and also has some conservative views. I tried to reason with her and explain that it normally takes years for drugs to get FDA approval PRECISELY BECAUSE long-term testing needs to be done to prove the safeness of said drugs before the FDA will allow it to be on the market and that because the various Covid vaccines were rushed through and approved in three or four months NO ONE knows for sure what the long term effects are and that THAT ALONE is reason enough for people to decline to get vaccinated if they so choose. She wasn’t having any of it! lol. I also got a little upset with her and said, “listen, this is America and you’re not the only American who gets to decide what’s best for themselves!”. I personally choose to get the vaccine because my wife is a nurse at a prison where almost all inmates eventually got covid, but I don’t begrudge anyone who doesn’t feel comfortable getting this or any vaccine, for WHATEVER REASON they decide.

    1. Flip side is the vaccines have much more supporting data behind then than the treatments for covid do at this point. Mix that with general SARS COV immunity clocking in at 6-9 months, unvaccinated, and the evidence is overwhelmingly for vaccination at this point. I did it right away. Totally happy I did.

      eb

    2. RC,

      Normally it takes years for new drugs to be approved that’s true. HOWEVER, a pandemic pandemic is an entirely different situation. The vaccine HAS been proven to be safe and effective with literally billions of doses already administered. The side effects are rare and affect a very small percentage of the population.

      Covid vaccines were rushed thru BECAUSE Trump wanted and often promoted rushing it. Then he raised doubts about it because of what he took credit for, getting it approved in record time.

      The bigger problem is that the people who are “waiting” for conditions to show them the vaccine really is safe are the ones getting infected and spreading it to others and in the process giving the virus more chances to mutate again into a variant that will render the current vaccine ineffective therefore starting the whole cycle all over again.

      Vaccine development and its safety have seen leaps in advancements in the last couple of decades and it no longer requires decades of testing to get approval.

      The average length of time for approval of drugs is 12 years, but that’s for drugs to treat things that are not highly contagious or able to affect the entire population.

      COVID vaccine testing is being carried out with the most intense scrutiny and constant studies, all which continue to show its safe.

      1. Normally it takes years for new drugs to be approved that’s true. HOWEVER, a pandemic pandemic is an entirely different situation. The vaccine HAS been proven to be safe and effective with literally billions of doses already administered. The side effects are rare and affect a very small percentage of the population.

        I seem to recall that was almost the precise argument made for the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine. Do the blog archives reflect your support for HCQ?

      2. @Svelaz said, “… it no longer requires decades of testing to get approval.“

        No, cash on the barrelhead in the form of equity participation and a cushy revolving door job suffice. Safety is soooooo Twentieth Century.

  15. And yet the Administration has allowed 1 million illegal immigrants to enter through Mexico with the vast majority untested and unvaccinated. And from the candidate who cast doubt on any vaccine approved by the Trump Administration. The lies and hypocrisy arising from the mouths and actions of this administration, including Dr. Fauci are breathtaking. Blaming the uptick in COVID cases on republicans is just another piece of propaganda from amplified by the administration’s partners in the media

    1. Trying to scapegoat immigrants for the current surge in COVID cases is as disingenuous as it gets. Florida is currently the epicenter for the most cases and hospitalizations in the country. Florida doesn’t get immigrants from the border. They are getting all their infections from the unvaccinated citizens, Trump supporters, who are adamant about their “natural “ immunity.

      You have people in Missouri sneaking around in disguise and making sure their vaccinations are secret because they were the ones who spread this disinformation about the vaccines only to get it due to their realization that they are going to get the blame and they rightly are getting the blame.

      Tucker Carlson is vaccinated, yet he still spews doubt and misinformation about the vaccines. Fox News employees ARE required to be vaccinated.

      “ Fox News has a strict COVID-19 policy that includes the kind of vaccine passport Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham and other right-wing hosts have railed against”

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/fox-news-covid-protocols-vaccination-passport-memo-tucker-carlson-2021-7%3famp

      1. “Trying to scapegoat immigrants . . .”

        “Scapegoat”?!

        I thought that the unvaccinated are the sinners. Or is it just that unvaccinated Republicans are the sinners? Was there a Royal decree that pardoned Blacks and Latinos? Perhaps there was an Executive Order compelling the virus to avoid the “chosen ones?”

        The virus does *not* infect migrants? They cannot transmit it? They have some magical migrant-immunity? Or is it that just those migrants favored by the Biden administration are immune from natural laws?

        And yours is the party that “follows the science?!”

      2. “Florida is currently the epicenter for the most cases and hospitalizations in the country. Florida doesn’t get immigrants from the border.”

        Is it? Can we trust you? When have you been accurate? Quite infrequently. The average number of deaths in the past week has been less than the number of deaths in some individual Cuomo-curated nursing homes.

        Florida has a spike. However, the border is being brought to Florida by Biden, illegally, and many other parts of the country. If anyone knows hospital personnel who has to go into many patient rooms, ask them if in areas where there is a sudden increase in Covid if they have seen illegals. I do happen to know some such people, and they have said they see illegals.

        That doesn’t mean all of the patients are illegals. They aren’t. But it means the infection started south of our border and was brought in illegally by Biden. This is part of the Biden hypocrisy that causes many to distrust anything the government says.

        If Covid is so dangerous that vaccine mandates are being considered, why is Biden bringing Covid into the nation.

        You will run away from that question as well.

        1. S. Meyer,

          “ They aren’t. But it means the infection started south of our border and was brought in illegally by Biden. This is part of the Biden hypocrisy that causes many to distrust anything the government says.”

          Proof?

          1. Svelaz, it seems you believe our borders are sealed and no migrants are coming through.

            Or you believe migrants cannot have Covid.

              1. You can’t even answer basic questions.

                To you the border is sealed and migrants cannot have Covid. If you differ with the statement, say it.

                1. A. Meyer, you said, “ But it means the infection started south of our border and was brought in illegally by Biden.”

                  Proof? You should be able to provide it since you’re making the claim.

                  1. “Proof? ”

                    You don’t accept proof.

                    One of many examples: You posted a paper on CRT written by a student. You denied he was a student. I told you that was what the bio said. You continued to say he wasn’t a student. I don’t remember how many more times this scenario was repeated. I even quoted the bio to show the word, student. No apologies. You go on to the next item where you were previously proven wrong.

                    Biden brought Covid to our borders and around the country, further complicating the Covid situation we presently face. He has brought in M-13, other gangs, rapists, child molesters, killers and other criminals. He is bringing in resistant TB and other diseases. He is impoverishing Americans. No one needs to prove it. You need to prove the opposite.

                    SM

                    1. Bug, there is no reason for you to prove your ignorance again and again.

                    2. S. Meyer, you’re deflecting. You made the claim. So obviously you have readily available proof.

                      “ Biden brought Covid to our borders and around the country, further complicating the Covid situation we presently face. He has brought in M-13, other gangs, rapists, child molesters, killers and other criminals. He is bringing in resistant TB and other diseases. He is impoverishing Americans. No one needs to prove it.”

                      Except you do need to prove it. If what you’re saying is true you should have readily available proof of your claim that Biden brought all those things.

                      It’s very convenient to suddenly have a scapegoat did everything you can’t explain. It’s the immigrants fault we are in this new mess. Right?

                    3. Svelaz, someone told me that there are nutcases out there that didn’t know Biden’s policies permitted the borders to be open with people packed so closely together that the immigrants were living in a petri dish spreading whatever disease they had to huge numbers of others.

                      Thank you, Svelaz, for letting me know that my friend was right. There are nutcases out there that don’t know this.

                    4. Svelaz, I am sure the 24 illegals and criminals in the van were all wearing masks, spread 6 feet apart and were tested for Covid before getting into the van. (sarcasm off)


                      Multiple dead, injured in crash with van full of suspected illegal immigrants
                      Eleven people are reported dead, and 13 injured.

                      As many as 11 people were killed and 13 injured after a van suspected of carrying illegal immigrants crashed in South Texas on Wednesday.

                      The crash occurred in Encino, on U.S. 281, roughly 55 miles north of McAllen, a border town, Fox News reported.

                      The van that was carrying 24 people in it crashed into a utility pole after veering off the road, Lt. Chris Olivarez with the Texas Department of Public Safety told Fox News.

                      https://justthenews.com/government/local/multiple-dead-crash-van-full-illegal-immigrants?utm_source=breaking&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter

                      SM

      3. “Florida is currently the epicenter for the most cases and hospitalizations in the country. Florida doesn’t get immigrants from the border.”

        So your argument is: Florida — therefore immigrants don’t get Covid, and can’t spread it elsewhere?

        That’s a lame attempt at deflection.

    1. Very interesting quote, translated: “The vaccine will set you free.” It conveys the same ironic message as the earlier similar quote above the gates at Auschwitz that “work (arbeit) will set you free.” Also important to reflect on the fact that eugenics enthusiast Bill Gates on the Stephen Colbert talk show explicitly stated that the vaccine was the “final solution” to end the “pandemic.”

  16. Im not sure which part of public health you don’t understand or why you seem oblivious to the dangers posed by refusals to take even the most minor steps to protect one’s self and others, that is, mask up. Covid is no hoax. You can’t shoot it with your gun or nuke it. We have to work hard to drive down the number of cases and limit the damage as much as possible. The right wing always has some reason these steps should be take it’s not 100% effective, people who have been vaccinated still get sick and on and on. No one seemed bothered by Republican loyalth loyalty tests to be on a congressional committee or to work at the WH.

  17. Since the current surge is due to the hesitancy or ignorance of the unvaccinated after encouraging and promoting vaccinations after months of waiting for it them so people could get back to work and get the economy going again. Now with with the entirety of the unvaccinated bringing back mask mandates and disrupting businesses trying to start back up and threatening the economy again it may come down to more businesses mandating their employees be vaccinated or lose their jobs.

    That’s already happening with hospital systems and governments requiring state employees to be vaccinated or be tested every two weeks.

    Thanks to all the misinformation and outright falsehoods about the vaccine we are being forced to re-employ mask mandates and possibly bring back certain restrictions.

    There are no excuses this time and as the Alabama governor so succinctly pointed out its time to blame the unvaccinated for this mess.

    1. There is not excuse for Biden bringing in Covid and sending immigrants transmitting Covid all over the nation.

      SM

  18. Gee, aren’t vaccines supposed to primarily protect the person vaccinated? How is an unvaxxed person a threat to them? Given that these have from day one been admitted as being non-sterilising vaccines, i.e. they reduce severity of symptoms but do not necessarily prevent infections and re-transmission, it was quite careless to roll these vaxxes out en masse precisely because they would add to evolutionary pressure for new variants to develop. Delta appears to be more virulent, but fortunately less lethal. Will that always be the case?

    This gives a perverse result that the vaxxed are a serious threat to the unvaxxed. Furthermore, since the vaxxed can transmit to others, it would seem illogical to give the unrestricted access to venues even with other vaxxed. By any reasonable logic, the vaxxed would necessarily need to be tested and masked to avoid being threats to others, vaxxed or not.

    Fortunately for the guilty parties who created the current situation, they have either been indemnified by law or granted the shield of sovereign immunity, which is much more useful than their experimental genetic therapeutics are for the hundreds of millions upon whom they’ve been inflicted.

    1. Cato,

      “ Gee, aren’t vaccines supposed to primarily protect the person vaccinated? How is an unvaxxed person a threat to them?”

      This is the biggest misconception about the vaccines. None are 100% effective. Pfizer is 95%, moderna, 90%, Johnson & Johnson, 80%. These are my estimations I may be off by some FYI. Regardless, the unvaccinated who are spreading the new more virulent variant do put the vaccinated at risk of getting covid delta 5% may experience breakthrough and may be contagious to the unvaccinated. The difference is those who are vaccinated will experience milder symptoms to no symptoms and not need hospitalizations.

      The vaccines are no longer experimental. They have been in use by literally billions of people worldwide. Their safety and efficacy have been shown to be well documented.

      1. Proof of the maxim of MPAI.

        If you took the jab, you are test subject in Phase three trials. All of the vaxxes are deployed on Emergency Use Authorizations, pending more safety data. Tens of thousands of deaths coinciding with COVID vaccinations have been recorded worldwide, and it is commonly accepted by authorities that the adverse events reporting is likely to be significantly understated. Just because vaxxed people aren’t dropping like flies now (but think of that the next time you read about a 23-year old having a heart attack), doesn’t really indicate what will be experienced in two, five, or ten years. People getting vaccinated are subjects in the largest medical experiment employing novel, relatively unproven technology in all of history. There is plenty of documentation that shows these are not nearly as effective as hoped … that is why you are hearing more and more about “breakout” cases, and those are vaxxed people, not unvaxxed.

        The problem is an epidemic of premature vaccination.

      2. These vaccines ARE experimental and we are the test subjects. Normal vaccine test procedure takes 3-4 years before they are given full approval for general use. And that applies to conventional vaccines. The Covid vaccines are a new, unproven type of vaccine (mRNA) which have never been used in large scale before. They do not work the same as the traditional vaccines do and there is no certainty about possible long-term effects.

      3. ” who are spreading the new more virulent variant”

        Where is your proof Svelaz? I forget, you don’t know what proof is.

        You still haven’t learned the difference between transmissibility and virulence. Then I forget, you don’t know the definitions of the words you use.

        “The vaccines are no longer experimental. “

        That is news to the FDA and CDC. Then again you have a problem with definitions. You don’t feel they are necessary. The only thing necessary to you is how you feel about the word.

        SM

      4. “. . . the new more virulent variant . . .”

        You can chant the word “virulent” until you’re blue in the face. Delta cannot hear you.

    2. Cato,

      “ Delta appears to be more virulent, but fortunately less lethal.”

      It is more lethal. It’s hitting younger people and sending more to ICU’s. It won’t be long before deaths start to increase. Previous outbreaks always started with increasing hospitalizations followed by deaths later on.

        1. I was going to suggest he/she demonstrated the logical flaw of post hoc ergo propter hoc, since the deaths will follow as they always have, but your answer is more to the point.

        2. Olly, like I said, right now we are seeing increasing hospitalizations. It’s the early stages. It won’t be long before increasing numbers of deaths will follow.

          This has been the pattern throughout the pandemic after every surge. It is my view that it will be more lethal as it progresses and overwhelms hospitals. I hope I’m wrong, but as it has happened before it’s only a matter of time before it gets worse.

          1. So, you’ve concluded it is more lethal, but you’re still waiting for the bodies to show up.

            Don’t quit your day job.

          2. Svelaz,
            I appreciate your admission that while the delta variant is proving less lethal, you feel it will become more so. I doubt this variant will further evolve to be more lethal, but as the number of infections increases, we will no doubt see an increase in deaths. One thing for certain, there will never be a majority support for mask mandates, lockdowns, school closures, business closures, etc. as long as this administration floods this country with illegal aliens potentially infected with Covid or it’s variants.

            Therefore the denominator, the number of infections, is certainly higher, and the same number of deaths accordingly would yield a lower rate of mortality. In other words, the virus is less deadly than even the best official statistics can say.
            https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/1/covid-19-delta-variant-hospitalizations-deaths-far/

      1. “It’s hitting younger people and sending more to ICU’s. “

        Increased hospitalizations indicate that more relaxed admissions are taking place. At the beginning of the crisis people had many relatively severe symptoms and were sent home to prevent a bed shortage. That was also the initial reason for the lockdowns. Today people are admitted to the hospital and even the ICU with much less symptoms.

        1. S. Meyer,

          “ Increased hospitalizations indicate that more relaxed admissions are taking place. At the beginning of the crisis people had many relatively severe symptoms and were sent home to prevent a bed shortage. That was also the initial reason for the lockdowns. Today people are admitted to the hospital and even the ICU with much less symptoms.”

          No S. Meyer. Your ignorance is massive.

          Increased hospitalizations are not due to relaxed admissions. It’s due to the delta variant sickening people faster and more people getting infected quicker. Hospitals are starting to reach capacity and they are seeing younger people having severe symptoms.

          People aren’t admitted to an ICU because they have less symptoms dumba$$. The ICU is specifically for people with the most serious symptoms.

          This is the kind of ignorance that is fueling these new surges.

          1. You are totally ignorant. You don’t understand triage. You don’t understand the economics of hospitalization. You don’t understand that when the hospitals were full in 2020 a higher percentage of hospitalized people died. Death tells even a stupid person that the illness was more severe or less remedial than when more people walk out alive. That means the actual degree of “sickness” for those entering the hospital was greater in 2020.

            Despite all the facts presented on this blog you continue to make things up and lie.

          2. “Increased hospitalizations . . .”

            That hospital visits increase after a virus spreads is *not* a news flash. That happens every new cold and flu season.

            To create more Covid panic, your side is playing games with words (once again). Now you’re conflating “hospital visits” and “hospitalizations.” Some catching the variants are *visiting* hospitals for therapeutic treatment — the very treatments that your side denounced for some 18 months.

  19. This Administration is proving the “Carter 2.0” theory true. They are not capable of making decisions that fly in the face of poll results, with the possible exception of printing more dollar bills. If they want a mandatory vax, with penalties for non-compliance, then do it. Or at least be honest about it.

    People of my age have small pox scars on their left arm, and I can remember the sugar cube laced with the polio vaccine that everyone in my school had to take. Big difference is the EUA designation. And, BTW, I have received both of my shots – voluntarily

    1. I was think about those very same examples! Imagine if the Eisenhower administration or its opponents had politicized the polio vaccine! What politicians on all sides are doing over this pandemic and vaccine is criminal.

      1. It talk nearly a decade for the Jonas Salk to develop and extensively test his polio vaccine before it was made available to the pubic. His son Doctor Peter Salk said in 2020 the covid vaccines should not be rushed.

        1. Salk’s polio vaccine was not sterilising, so while it was useful for protecting individuals, it had the potential to expose the public to greater risk because those who received it could still transmit polio to others. This is why a sterising oral vaccine was developed and became the preferred prophylaxis. Salk’s son’s caution reflects the experience of hard lessons learned by rushing out non-sterilising vaccinations.

        2. It was necesasary to rush them because of the threart to hospitals.

          What the vaccine scolds are missing is that it is only sufficient to vaccinate old people to eliminate the threat to hospitals.

          1. Most hospitals say they are full at a certain number, but that number can be expanded and is when needed.

            What percent of hospitals reached their true capacity and were overflowing without nearby facilities with empty beds? Even in NY the number was very small.

        3. And instead of having secret parts of his formula, Jonas Salk donated his discovery to the people of this Country. He never made a dime profiting from his work. I lived through that era and none of the heavy handed things going on today happened back then. The single thing I recall is the swimming water in lakes and the ocean were tested before being opened up on a summer day. Kids went to school and adults went to work. No masks and no quarantines. That approach worked because of the consistency of government behavior and the absence of threatening people. When the vaccine was finally approved there was no resistance because people trusted the then system.

          And when HIV/AIDS surfaced no one overreacted though some stayed away from venues where it had surfaced. The Fauci who carries on every day with doom and fear still 40 years later has not provided a vaccine or even a decent therapeutic solution. He is like a man who has done a 180 turn and his demeanor is just not helping things at all. And he doesn’t provide clear thinking and most people end up having difficulty accepting his “wisdom.” Starts off with no masks needed and at one point was talking about people wearing three. He leaves it to others to do the data mining which does indicate that this may just be a serious flu but such a small percentage of people have died that his reaction frankly is off putting. And to find out that he was using US tax dollars to support that gain of function lab in Wuhan is frankly astounding.

          And no work is being done for people who have known illnesses that would not be helped with a vaccine with so many dangerous side effects. Doctors just refuse to get involved in providing the information needed to apply for an exemption to the point where one wonders if they are under pressure, too.

          1. Masks are irrelevant in preventing polio because it comes from contact with food or water that is contaminated–mostly ponds, lakes, rivers and streams where people would go swimming. The reason people wanted the polio vaccine is due to FEAR of the illness–if it doesn’t kill you, it can cause permanent paralysis. Even now, 50+ years later, recovered polio victims sometimes suffer from “secondary polio”, in which nerves that were damaged during their initial infection start failing. So, this previously-unknown long-term effect of polio wasn’t known until fairly recently. Vaccination is effective in eradicating polio and the risk for after-effects. So is vaccination for COVID.

            With COVID, we keep getting push-back based on lies, and for political reasons. People on this blog keep claiming that in the US the death rate is 1%, which is a lie. The overall death rate from COVID in the US, per Johns Hopkins, is 1.7%, but higher for people with certain health and other conditions, like age. That was for the Alpha variant, and data are still being collected for the Delta variant. But… the big question mark is what are the long-term effects of COVID? We don’t know because it hasn’t been around that long, but we do know that some survivors of initial COVID infection have long-term fatigue, memory problems and other health problems. How long will these things last? No one can say with certainty, which is why people need to start believing the scientists and stop listening to alt-right media and self-proclaimed know it alls like some who post on this blog. The vaccine is not worse than the disease, and COVID is not a hoax, like people in Arkansas seem to believe.

            1. Amen, Natacha. That so many Trumpists believe that Covid is a hoax lies at the feet primarily of Turley’s Fox News. Turley believes that good medical information is an effective vaccine against malicious disinformation. I’d like to ask him how he thinks that’s working?

              Jeff Silberman

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