We have been discussing how schools have been dropping the use of standardized tests to achieve diversity goals in admissions. That trend continued this month with Cal State dropping standardized testing “to level the playing field” for minority students. I have long been a critic of this movement given the overwhelming evidence that these tests allow an objective measure of academic merit and have great predictive value on the performance of students. One school, however, has returned to standardized testing: the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
“Our research shows standardized tests help us better assess the academic preparedness of all applicants, and also help us identify socioeconomically disadvantaged students who lack access to advanced coursework or other enrichment opportunities that would otherwise demonstrate their readiness for MIT.”
The refusal to yield on its standards may prove to be the single most important institutional decision of MIT since its founding.
The MIT decision stands in stark contrast to the decision of the University of California system. Notably, academics in the California system came to the same conclusion as those at MIT: these tests not only have the greatest predictive value for performance but play an important role in the advancement of minority students. University of California President Janet Napolitano, however, overrode those conclusions.
Napolitano responded to such criticism with a Standardized Testing Task Force in 2019. Many people expected the task force to recommend the cessation of standardized testing. The task force did find that 59 percent of high school graduates were Latino, African-American or Native American but only 37 percent were admitted as UC freshman students. The Task Force did not find standardized testing to be unreliable or call for its abandonment, however.
Instead, its final report concluded that “At UC, test scores are currently better predictors of first-year GPA than high school grade point average (HSGPA), and about as good at predicting first-year retention, [University] GPA, and graduation.”
Not only that, it found: “Further, the amount of variance in student outcomes explained by test scores has increased since 2007 … Test scores are predictive for all demographic groups and disciplines … In fact, test scores are better predictors of success for students who are Underrepresented Minority Students (URMs), who are first generation, or whose families are low-income.” In other words, test scores remain the best indicator for continued performance in college.
That clearly was not the result Napolitano or some others wanted. So, she simply announced a cessation of the use of such scores in admissions. The system will go to a “test-blind” system until or unless it develops its own test.
Ending standardized testing will have a notable impact on legal challenges to the use of race in college admissions. Last November, Californians rejected a resolution to restore affirmative action in college admissions.
Universities will now have to chose between the MIT v. UC models. The pressure on administrators is considerable to make tests optional in the name of equity. Many academics are unwilling to face the personal costs of opposing such changes when they could be portrayed as racist or reactionary.
The choice could not be more impactful for universities. MIT has decided to stand by its institutional commitment to academic excellence. It is a profile of academic courage that has been missing at many institutions of higher education.
What is the purpose of achieving “diversity” at the expense of quality? To just satisfy the loud yammering fanatics at the far left of the spectrum was a journey into destruction of reputation AND the false hope of many who were given access to schools far beyond their abilities thus causing further damage to their sense of self, (plus we ended up subsidizing many a troublesome cadre of minority students with an alternative agenda of using these resources as a cudgel against the main culture that, ironically, provided them the means with which to attempt their destruction of same.
“What is the purpose of achieving “diversity” at the expense of quality?’
That produces the JS’s and stupid anonymous’s of the world.
The purpose of “diversity” as promulgated by the Left is to break down notions of merit and land ownership using such specious arguments as “it’s racist” in an effort to force globalization on all of us which will of course blur any distinctins between individuals. This blurring of the identity lines inevitably leads to destroying nations, traditions and cultures which, of course, makes people fungible, i.e. easily replaceable. Why would corporations and governments want peope to be easily replaceable, you ask? Well, think about it. Which is easier to control: autonomous, land-owning, accomplished individuals engaged in individualized production or a horde of workers dependent on corporations or governments for all of life’s necessities and goodies? Stop by any beehive to get your answer to that and then figure out who will get to keep all the honey.
“What is the purpose of achieving “diversity” at the expense of quality?”
To destroy the concepts of “achievement” and “intelligence.”
Their motto is: Chop down the tall poppies.
The university accreditation depends on the percentage of students who complete the course of education and the status of their employment once they have graduated. In the case of advanced degrees, are the students well prepared to apply for and be accepted by graduate programs? Are graduate students capable of passing state and national boards? It is an exercise of pure frustration to put an under prepared student in a course of study that requires mastery of prerequisites. It. doesn’t matter how hard they try. They must follow a sequence.
If the students (the products of the educational institution) cannot meet these standards, the university has accomplished two things. First, they have saddled the student with a debt they cannot easily pay back and will indenture and cripple the student for life. Second, they have waisted years of the student’s productive time, a cost that must be factored into the financial equation.
Does the student have the necessary preparation to succeed academically? Do they have the drive and willingness to sit for hours? Are they willing to put in the hard yards to succeed? These qualities can be missed in the entrance exams. That doesn’t mean throw out the entrance exams. It should mean that admissions weighs other factors.
I know of one graduate program at a well known institution that has taken a long-range approach to the question of diversity. It took years to methodically build their academic vision. Faculty and administrators alike take part in well-designed program to identifying young talent in underserved schools and communities, much like sports programs do. They conduct high school programs that offer the students a glimpse into the profession and the academic road map to get there, offer mentorships for underserved students who show potential and have summer camps. The results of this long-range approach is a program that has the most diverse class nationally of similar programs, the highest entrance testing scores and the most students who pass national boards.
It is a difficult job for admissions to weigh all the factors that will contribute to a student’s success. What is the best way to accomplish this task? Surely there are more than two options that do not compromise the academic rigor required to enter and for completion of the program.
There appears to be a trend in students seeking the brand equity of the famous universities instead of seeking a more rigorous program in a lesser known institution. “Where did you attend university?”
It’s good to see the swing back to sanity and science.
The everyone gets a trophy generation, has grown up, and is now in charge of many universities. So now it’s “everyone gets a diploma,” without doing anything to earn it. Self destruction, from hiring social justice warriors, is painful to watch. Equity used to mean that I had invested in something. “We of the resistance, demand that no one puts up any resistance, so we can continue to be the resistance, without meeting any resistance!”
Where is my comment?
Blazing Saddles was a relevant movie to this topic. Not The Irish! Where da white women at? Let the Africans in town to help fight the Indian tribe about to attack! No brains on Sunday. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. Praise Lard on Monday.
“Universities will now have to chose between the MIT v. UC models.” Really? They have two options in the entire universe?
Due to my experience, I have mixed feelings on standardized tests. I focused more on basketball, poker, and bridge (I know, it was a mostly white school in Minnesota) in high school and let teasing get to me when I got an A+ in math. I got good grades without trying too hard but not exceptional. Than as a Junior I took the PSAT and scored in the 95th percentile in Math and English. I was recruited by colleges across the nation and ended up going to Fisk University in Nashville where I got an amazing education while still playing basketball and a new game, Bid Whist.
Later in life I took a second job with the Princeton Review (not associated with the university) that prepared students for the SAT, ACT, LSAT, GMAT and other exams. I learned about the biases in the exam and for example how some of the word problems were easier if you were familiar with terms that everyone isn’t exposed to. I was into the Spelling Bee in 5th and 6th grade and had been exposed to lots of words.
Do wealthy families have an advantage on standardized tests due to additional exposure or the ability to pay for preparation? Absolutely. Can the tests identify outstanding minority candidates that might have been overlooked? That’s also true though many here would prefer they still don’t get an opportunity.
The current system has advantages based on wealth and class but it’s possible for a few “other Persons” to slip through the cracks. That sounds just like America!
The true “test” for colleges is output. Will the quality of their graduates diminish? If not, then the downside will be a higher number of unsuccessful students admitted – but were at least given a chance. There is, of course, nuance to that seemingly equitable statement. One being the overall lack of education students are receiving for the amount of tuition colleges are getting away with charging – and how this fact will impact lower income students that are admitted but destine for academic failure bc they weren’t screened by a standardized test. I guess time will tell in about 3-5yrs…
There is a major assumption that some of these schools were producing quality graduates in the first place. Another is that low income students are destined for failure. Why do you think that to be true? If aptitude isn’t determined by class, there must be some other reason, don’t you agree?
Many stellar thinkers had horrible poverty as children but proved they were refused to settle as victims and to identity politics, e.g. Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams, Condi Rice, to name a few. What carried and formed these greats was the love and support of a family member. Contrast that to blacks today, i.e. Daniel Moynihan’s essay on disintegration of the black family
know, it was a mostly white school in Minnesota
If Thomas Sowell or Clarence Thomas had been in your school, you would have been the first to organize their lynching. You use race in a manner that makes Jesse Jackson green with envy, and Al Sharpton blush white all over. Learn from Mr Williams: its not about the color of one’s skin
iowan2 seems to feel that low income means poor performance. I dispute that. You are projecting your feelings about me based on wishful thinking.
The “white school” does make a difference due to better supplies, teachers, and facilities. In my Sunday School class, in a Black church in the heart of the inner-city. Three of the students were National Merit Semi-Finalists based on testing. All three went to different white schools. The majority of the class attended the two Black schools in Minneapolis and didn’t see that success. Was that coincidence?
I agree with you that the color of one’s skin shouldn’t make a difference but the combination of segregation, redlining, unequal education, and other forms of discrimination based on the color of their skin really do.
“low income means poor performance. I dispute that.”
Low income may be correlated with poor preparedness due to lack of competition in earlier years and lack of a sound school system,
If one cares about those kids, they don’t put them into MIT so that they become discouraged and drop out. Only those that play the numbers percentage game would do such a thing. I will mention three ways of rectifying the problem.
1) Those students who fit into this category could go to a different school to further prepare them to enter elite schools or graduate schools. In that way, they will be better prepared to compete.
2) Instead of sending those kids to the top of the top based on diversity criteria, place them into top schools where they can compete and excel. In the long run, they will do better, and they can later get graduate degrees at MIT.
3) Revamp the school system and remove leftists and the teacher’s unions so that they stop obstructing the development of better schools for the disadvantaged. Some are so beholden to the belief in diversity and playing the numbers percentage game that they block their own people from moving forward. Why they do that is beyond my understanding.
“The “white school” does make a difference due to better supplies, teachers, and facilities”
Current practice refutes your wish-casting. To wit, America’s politicians for the past 3 decades have constructed palatial structures, flooded them with shiny materials, computers, latest & greatest technologies, and yet, national educational metrics across all groups have plummeted, except maybe for Asians.
As to teachers, the last 2 years have shown us they suck. Eliminate teachers unions and then maybe
“Current practice refutes your wish-casting. To wit, America’s politicians for the past 3 decades have constructed palatial structures, flooded them with shiny materials, computers, latest & greatest technologies, and yet, national educational metrics across all groups have plummeted, except maybe for Asians.”
Your imagination runneth wild!
I see this. Our organization has 1,100 employees. Over the last two decades, training programs have had to focus on teaching college graduates principles of plain writing, basic statistics, and how to use a financial calculator. Our training programs did not have to cover these issues I. The 1980s and 1990s. Back then we had fully trained employees 3 years. Today it’s taking 5 or more years to get new staff to the same proficiency level.
I won’t talk about the helicopter parents who think thier role is to shadow thier college graduates in the workplace.
Eliminate teacher’s unions and contracts.
Paul Schulte: “Eliminate teacher’s unions and contracts.”
That’s my idea of Heaven.
i taught school before Jimmy Carter created Dept of Education, when teachers were honorable people, if I say so myself, and the teachers lounge was a smoke-filled private paradise that reeked of Winstons, and stale Maryland Club coffee.
“America’s politicians for the past 3 decades have constructed palatial structures, flooded them with shiny materials, computers, latest & greatest technologies”
Too many of America’s politicians are bought by corporatists who want to flood schools with computers and the latest and greatest technologies and meddle in local control. ALEC runs roughshod over the electorate.
Teachers are told what to teach by administration. If they are leading things astray, astray it will go.
Enigma,
“I learned about the biases in the exam and for example how some of the word problems were easier if you were familiar with terms that everyone isn’t exposed to.”
That strikes me as a bias towards those who value (or at least frequently practice) reading and learning. Isn’t that the point of those tests?
Isn’t the “fix” to encourage reading and learning amongst those who currently struggle because they lack vocabulary (etc)–to bring them into familiarity with terms and concepts likely to be found on standardized tests and in the wider world?
While your perception is that the students didn’t do enough to do well o the tests. Studies have shown that the tests themselves are skewed towards those who the tests were designed for. I can document the biases, can you document the fault of the low-income students?
https://maclayandalusian.com
Enigma,
I’ve read some about the issues with standardized tests.
The fault is not *of* the low-income students, the fault is of the education available to them and the expectations others had of them. The only “fault” might be the low expectations they had for themselves. Sometimes when people cannot expect much because of poverty of situation, they end up not expecting much beyond that in other realms, too. They need someone to help lift up their eyes beyond their circumstances.
There might be “fault”, too, in a culture/environment that does not encourage academic excellence. Cultural values can maybe have racial/ethnic associations, but it seems to me that this issue of valuing knowledge and academics is likely closer to a class phenomenon. I do see low expectations for poor kids, no matter their race. Don’t give them homework–their parents won’t be able to or just won’t help them. Don’t saddle them with extra reading or writing–they won’t do it anyway because they won’t get the reinforcement at home. It’s sad. I was poor growing up; thankfully, my family encouraged learning, reading, and gaining knowledge, and we believed that our impecunious circumstances were temporary so long as we learned a lot, got good grades, and didn’t do anything stupid to hurt our health or chances of post-high school education.
I will reiterate:
That strikes me as a bias towards those who value (or at least frequently practice) reading and learning. Isn’t that the point of those tests?
Isn’t the “fix” to encourage reading and learning amongst those who currently struggle because they lack vocabulary (etc)–to bring them into familiarity with terms and concepts likely to be found on standardized tests and in the wider world?
It’s hard for me to accurately say how other cultures value education. I know for a fact the Black culture has always valued education, even from the point where reading and writing might cost their life, and I’m talking about well past enslavement.
You mentioned a culture.environment of low expectations, part of that culture was white teachers telling students to lower expectations, not to try to be a doctor or lawyer. Malcolm X wanted to be a lawyer but was discouraged by a white teacher.
Some of the bias in standardized tests is from not using “terms and concepts” that are familiar but those more familiar to the white and elite. White kids do just as many stupid things to hurt their chances yet the justice system polices and sentences them differently.
You say you aren’t but you are still holding responsible those who the system is geared to hold back.
I agree many black people value education, which has been proven by the many black people who have succeeded in medicine, economics, law, and many other disciplines. One tries to believe that black leaders would separate politics from the proper education of black children in NYC. They should be expressing themselves loud and clear in demanding more charter schools.
Those schools have paved the way for many black children to graduate from high school proficient in English and math to enter college based on their own merits. They can continue to excel in the medical or law school they attend based on their merits. They can do that no matter what anyone says.
The naysayers are the ones who obstruct such progress. They are too invested in historical black disadvantage. Such investment distracts the young from what they can do. They should cease looking backward and demand a better education for their children.
If the leaders and elders do not change the tactics involving victimhood and the blame game, success will be harder for these valuable young children.
Test.
I see you!
I will try to successfully submit my reply to you again, Enigma. I tried two or three times yesterday and it was swallowed by WordPress or something. Only two links, no cusswords. Sigh.
Darren,
I think WordPress swallowed my comment again. It only has one link and no cusswords. Would you be able to free the most recent iteration from the filter?
Looking forward to it.
Hopefully, Enigma! WordPress has gobbled it up at least 5 times! 🙂
Discovered the problem. Booker T. Washington got censored.
Enigma,
Sorry for the delay. It has been especially busy as of late (and even now I am procrastinating less fun work). 🙂
“Black culture has always valued education, even from the point where reading and writing might cost their life, and I’m talking about well past enslavement”
But is “Black culture” still valuing education to the degree their forebears did? I hear comments like “don’t be an Oreo”, which would be the absurd association of striving for education with “acting white”. I also see too many parents not parenting such that kids organize their time to prioritize studying, making a habit to read, and then getting to bed at a decent hour. The poorly parented kids who were mob-stealing from stores were not using their free time to learn independently.
https://video.foxnews.com/v/1289949136001#sp=show-clips
https://nypost.com/2021/11/22/mobs-of-looters-are-grabbing-goods-in-california-thanks-to-downgraded-shoplifting-laws/
There are certainly Black families who emphasize learning–I am sure your family does. I know “Craig of the Creek” is just a cartoon, but it’d be great if more families overall (no matter their skin color) encouraged exploration and learning the way Craig’s family does.
“You mentioned a culture.environment of low expectations, part of that culture was white teachers telling students to lower expectations, not to try to be a doctor or lawyer. Malcolm X wanted to be a lawyer but was discouraged by a white teacher.”
That was like 80 years ago. Nowadays, inn my area, I see low expectations too often for poor kids, no matter their color. Parents won’t or won’t be able to help their kids with homework (solution: don’t give homework). Poor kids don’t have great vocabularies (solution: don’t challenge them to read better books and improve their vocabularies). Poor kids won’t be able to handle challenging course material because they struggle more with reading and writing (solution: dumb down the material).
“Some of the bias in standardized tests is from not using “terms and concepts” that are familiar but those more familiar to the white and elite.”
Why are these “terms and concepts” more familiar to “whites” and elites? Is it because they learned them and the black kids didn’t? Well, teach the black kids so they know the terms and concepts that will help them attain their aspirations. Those “terms and concepts” are from the accumulation of knowledge and experience and endeavor gained over thousands of years. You mention Malcolm X–he *always* carried books with him–he read every free moment he could get find–5 minutes here, 5 minutes there while he was waiting in lines or whatnot. Booker T. Washington walked like 500 miles so he could go to school and get himself educated after having worked in the salt mines. He said at the Tuskegee Institute:
“As we continue to place [Black] men and women of intelligence, religion, modesty, conscience, and skill in every community in the South, who will prove by actual results their value to the community, I cannot but believe, I say, that this will constitute a solution to many of the present political and social difficulties.”
So they will be judged by the content of their character.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. held education in very high esteem:
“Education must also train one for quick, resolute and effective thinking. To think incisively and to think for one’s self is very difficult. We are prone to let our mental life become invaded by legions of half truths, prejudices, and propaganda. At this point, I often wonder whether or not education is fulfilling its purpose. A great majority of the so-called educated people do not think logically and scientifically. Even the press, the classroom, the platform, and the pulpit in many instances do not give us objective and unbiased truths. To save man from the morass of propaganda, in my opinion, is one of the chief aims of education. Education must enable one to sift and weigh evidence, to discern the true from the false, the real from the unreal, and the facts from the fiction. The function of education, therefore, is to teach one to think intensively and to think critically. But education which stops with efficiency may prove the greatest menace to society. The most dangerous criminal may be the man gifted with reason, but with no morals.”
Malcolm X, Booker T. Washington, and MLK fought to improve their circumstances and the circumstances of others, and I think the different tacts by these men can be utilized for the success of any person–not just Black children–education through books and education through the hands. Both elements create a balanced knowledge of and engagement with the world, a real utility. Dr. Ben Carson seems to have gained an excellent education on both fronts, for instance.
“You say you aren’t but you are still holding responsible those who the system is geared to hold back.”
I don’t think “the system” is geared, exactly, to hold anyone back (though, I supposed we could discuss this ill-defined idea and better understand what we mean by it). But, yes, they are responsible for their own learning, just like anyone. Malcolm X, Booker T. Washington, MLK, and Ben Carson held (and hold) the responsibility for their own education with pride.
You put enough time and effort into your response that I’ll come back to it later to respond more fully. Yes, the Black culture values education highly. Your links come from sources not known for portraying Black people in their best light. I would go as far as to say that Fox in particular never portrays anyone Black in a positive light unless they espouse particular values, then usually to put down other Black people,
“The System” is designed to differentiate. Stste-controlled HBCUs have been woefully underfunded on purpose by legislators and lawsuits are only beginning to document that fact. Without looking it up, Maryland just had a $577 million settlement to make up for the underfunding of four HBCUs which includes the inequitable distribution of federal funds. Segregated school still exist that are nowhere near equal. Any effort to change acceptance guidelines that have greatly favored applications are met by claims of reverse discrimination. I’ll come back later to respond more.
Enigma– “Stste-controlled HBCUs have been woefully underfunded on purpose”
+++
If we have historically black colleges at all can we also have historically white colleges?
There are hiundreds of them
So what ?
Did anyone say you could not create or attend HBCU’s ?
Enigma wants to be able to discriminate, but does not want to be discriminated.
He does not understand logic or hypocracy.
You can say whatever you want that does not make it true.
Regardless, there is no obligation for anyone to portray anyone “in their best light”.
This is narcist BS.
Not especially looking to defend Fox, they have problems – but atleast they are not the rest of the completely bran dead left wing media.
Do many – right and center, grasp that 17% of the population is responsible for almost 50% of the murders ?
Yup.
Those same people grasp that in the past and today that same population has produced some incredible people.
Whether in areas like sports and music traditionally associated with that culture or science, economics, medicine, …
We should not be portraying any race in “their best light” – frankly we need not portray races, just individuals.
If you are unhappy with the funding of HBCU’s – Fund them yourself.
Education is not the legitimate business of government – College far less so.
Worse still increased government higher education funding has directly corresponded with increased college expense, and descreased college quality.
Nor is this an unusual pattern – whenever government subsidizes something the cost goes up and the quality declines.
Healthcare and Education being prime examples.
You do not like that ? So What ? It is reality, and it does nto care what you like.
It does not care what race you are.
You are complaining about Segregated schools in the same breath you are talking about HBCU’s ?
If you are opposed to segregation – then lets actually end it – no more HBCU’s.
I am not talking about “reverse discrimination” – I am talking about discrimation – choices made based solely on race.
“I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
Martin Luther King, Jr.
If you beleive that – Act like it.
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”
John Roberts
I would note that for most of human history – including today and through most of the world, the vast majority of people are homogenous with regard to race, creed, even culture.
Diverse cultures such as the US are the exception – both historically and at the present.
Most of Africa is large majority black. India is nearly entirely indian and they discriminate based on shades of skin within the same race.
Near the entirety of Asia is asian. There are almost no blacks in China – or Russia.
You live in the most diverse time in history in the most diverse country in the world. You live in the least racist time, in the least racist country in the world. Sure we could do better – just get government OUT of it.
The left likes to rant that Slavery was institutionalized in the US constitution – Correct, it had to be, it requires force to get everyone to discriminate. Jim Crow was a series of discriminatory LAWS – aka government – because post civil war in the south people did not discriminate enough.
There is a rule in sales – “All things being equal, it is who you know”, there is a corralary. “All things being not so equal, it is who you know”.
And finally – while how well you know someone matters, even mere aquaintance will give you a leg up.
I have 5 apartments – the majority of my tenants today are black. The worst tenants I have were white.
I do not care what race people trying to rent from me are – I care whether they are going to be problems and whether they can pay the rent.
I have also hired people for different jobs throughout my life. Nearly all have been white – because almost no minorities have ever applied.
Regardless hiring people is hard.
I have very limited time to put into hiring. JUst as I do not call every plumber in the phone book and spend an hour interviewing each – I look cursorily at a couple and pick one and if they do a good job I stick with them.
The same is true of hiring. I get dozens often as many as a hundred applications for a job.
I rarely have time to interview more than 3. So however many applications I have I am going through them all ACTIVELY looking to get rid of people. You misspell something – chuck it. your gramar is poor – chuck it. You want too much money – chuck it.
I doubt that I ever pick the best person for the job – that is some myth they teach. I am after efficiently hiring “good enough”
Fair ? Nope. But that is the real world – get over it. You will never change it.
Finally, you want to be absolutely guaranteed to get the job all the time everytime ? It is easy – work for yourself.
Absolutely the “system” is designed to diferentiate – Duh!
Read my post on hiring. If I have 100 applicants and 1 job – I need to efficiently say NO 99 times.
I do that by making choices – discriminating.
Oh, and efforts to change things are ALWAYS resisted.
We should ALWAYS be slow to change and very careful about it.
Rapid change is incredibly dangerous. People do not like chaos and rapid change is chaotic.
Further most of the time the BAD system we already have is actually and presumptively better than the changed system.
Successful change is quite hard. Most change – no matter how good it sounds is WORSE that what preceded it.
JT, wrong seal on the post. MIT is a private university. The seal on the post is UMASS a public college.
University faculty are fighting back against the illiberal elite
CONCERNED FACULTY: Free speech is a fundamental U.Va. value
https://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2022/04/concerned-faculty-free-speech-is-a-fundamental-u-va-value
Time to remove all Federal Money from high education….as MOST is wasted…case example $2 Trillion in unpaid loans! Visit a college campus and see the LUXURY they are squandering the money on! I have have been to most of the elite schools of the NE and Mid-atlantic…it is appalling!
Safe Spaces should be outlawed as well….or can we have WHITE PEOPLE safe spaces? The Democrats in the SOUTH loved White People Safe Spaces till the Civil Rights!
the reason liberals want to destroy the TEST, 45% more men than women score in the top range (1400-1600) of the SAT—up from 31% more men on the old SAT.
So they weight the GPA, which many times…is basically a measure of how subservient you are to a Teacher!
Assuming your figures are correct. Do you believe men score higher because they are men or is it due to other factors?
My experience with very smart women, is they are great at memorizing information. Tests that measure what you learned over the last weeks, they do very well. The take expansive notes, and cram before exams. Applying that knowledge of other disciplines is where they start to falter. My sons freshman engineering class was 60% female, the graduating class is was less than 10%. Passing calculus is a feat, Applying calculus to another application is where intelligence enters.
Are you saying women are inherently less smart than men?
enigma: “Are you saying women are inherently less smart than men?”
Frederick Douglass thought so in 1866……women were less smart, less important, less deserving…….He did not think women should vote! And as a black man, along with all black men, he was allowed to vote 50 years before any woman of any color. The height of “less than”!!
If you want to switch topics to misogyny, Black men were/are/can be just as misogynistic as white ones. The ability of Black men to vote sooner had little to do with the preferences of Black men but of white ones with the originalist thinking some insist we follow today.
Black women were among the leaders of the suffrage movement, until they were literally asked to march in the back and their idea that women could unite to discuss their issues like lynching. BTW, the ability of Black men to vote and later Black women was compromised by voter suppression, lynching, poll taxes, literacy tests, lack of polling locations, election police. Your assertion that all Black men were allowed to vote is ridiculous. Look up the Ocoee Massacre in 1920 when a whole town’s Black population was killed or burned out because two Black men tried to vote, You say what you believe to be true, it simply isn’t though.
I wouldn’t. I would say, however that we have plenty of empirical evidence that generally speaking the brains of men and women work differently. Our learning styles and areas where we excel are different. Not saying one is inherently better than another, but there are probably to a certain extent careers which require the particular style of one or the other that either men or women will disproportionately excel in.
Based on your belief, would you show a hiring preference for one gender or the other based on the task? If “empirical evidence” showed certain races do better would you use race as a criteria for hiring? Would you even consider that there might be bias in what is being measured and how scores are evaluated?
I would hire based on their past performance and career achievements. Based upon what sort of position I was hiring for, however, I could make a statistical prediction of what sex would most likely be the successful candidate. Statistics are not a 100% guarantor, but they do help in spotting trends and they do help in estimating the available pool of people to recruit from. I make no prediction regarding race, and indeed my previous post made no mention of it.
My wife and I own an executive recruiting agency. We’ve been doing this for 13 years on our own, more counting our prior employer. We can tell you from the moment we get a request from a client who the candidate will most likely be. We have had a few contracts over the years that had a requirement that goes against type. They tend to be very lengthy and difficult and we usually build in a higher fee. You just don’t have a lot of men lining up to be directors of HR and you don’t get a lot of female oilfield engineers.
I would think a more poignant and personal question would be is what factors matter to you if you were looking for a doctor or surgeon to treat or cure a life threatening illness. Race? Gender? or patient survival rate?
Race and gender wouldn’t initially be factors. If the doctor’s car had a Confederate flag flying I’d find another doctor. Survival rate can’t be compared apples to apples. Some doctors perform higher risk surgeries or might work in conditions that affect survival.
I wouldn’t care if they are dressed in an SS uniform or as Mao himself. “Can you do your job?” is the only important factor. The beliefs of other people are not my business or concern.
The beliefs of other people make a hell of a lot of difference in medicine. “Empirical Studies” show that many white doctors believe Black people have a higher tolerance for pain and therefore offer less pain medication.
https://batten.virginia.edu/about/news/black-americans-are-systematically-under-treated-pain-why
Black women die during childbirth at three times the rate of white ones. The major reason cited is that some health care professionals pay less attention to Black women.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cdc-report-black-women-die-from-maternal-causes-nearly-3-times-more-than-others/ar-AAVRjbp
You may have the luxury of not being concerned about your SS doctor. I won’t willingly submit myself to someone less concerned about me as a person and unlikely to care if I live or die.
“Black women die during childbirth at three times the rate of white ones. The major reason cited is that some health care professionals pay less attention to Black women.”
Enigma always seems to have a racist slant when claims of victimhood are made. What he says might have some truth to it or not. I don’t know, but one might ask if black doctors attending such women are trained well enough or are as attentive as they should be. I am not claiming anything negative about black doctors, nor am I stating they are the only ones to treat black women. Instead, I am answering Enigma’s race-baiting question, “is that some health care professionals pay less attention to Black women.” I wanted Enigma to see that his vision could be broader than he might desire.
Maternal morbidity is too significant a subject to play such games with.
Let me list a few causes of maternal mortality.
Drugs and alcohol
pregnancy at a young age
non-compliance
substandard care
Socio-economic status.
Health problems (sickle cell, Hypertension etc.)
I think Enigma’s question is worth looking into, but I think we will find the six listed items to be more significant causes.
Poor patient outcomes are going to show in their performance record. What more do you need?
No one is getting decent pain meds today. I just had a colostomy reversal in 2020. I got Tylenol and I’m as white as the driven snow. The surgeon I had was a little Korean woman about the size of a 12 year old. She’s the best in the region and I never had a moment’s hesitation letting her split me stem to stern.
enigma, exactly what do you disagree with?
I’ll give an example
We hired a girl to work in our precision Agriculture division. Variable rate fertilizer, seed application, driven by grid soil sampling.
This girl graduated high school in 3 years, and went to Iowa State and graduated in 3 years. BS in animal science. Her advisors said she would be accepted at the vet school if she applied. She got married instead.
Do you think this girl is smart?
After a year, on the job she came up to me. (2 year AA degree) and asked how big is an acre. I, looking confused, answered 43,560 square feet. She replied, yes she know that. But. if a field is 2640 ft X 1320 feet thats 3484800 sq ft /43560=80 acres. But how big is one acre? so I walked over to a calculator, punched in 43560 and hit the square root key.
Smart yes, Applying it was a real challenge for her sometimes. But she went to a 2 day prep session and passed the Certified Crop advisor exam. Something I had done 8 years previous walking in off the street, taking the test in the fist time offered to the public, no one knew what to expect, and 75% failed.
There is cramming for a test smart. and understanding the material smart. I’m the later.
Women think differently. While more than good enough grades to get through the engineering discipline, they lack the problem solving portion of what makes great engineers. Women do not find the challenge something they ever think they can master.So they change majors pretty quick.
Stop digging, the hole is only getting deeper. Judging all women based on an individual isn;t a good look.
“enigma, exactly what do you disagree with?”
With respect, that’s not the issue for him.
He’s hunting for a way to shoehorn “racism.”
“Do you believe men score higher because they are men or is it due to other factors?”
Women score higher than men on the verbal section (EBRW). Is that because they are women or other factors?
What a refusal to answer a question. Maybe women generally read more or any number of other things but I don’t believe it’s because they are women. The answer is other factors, just like men scoring higher on math (assuming it’s true).
What a refusal to answer a question. Maybe women generally read more or any number of other things but I don’t believe it’s because they are women.
I know the “experts” insist differently, men and women are different. That include mental aptitudes. I think women make great Dr’s Not as good architects. Seems men are better Chefs….in the high end high pressure establishments. Cops seen to be men. Does not make them inferiror, nor does it mean they cannot succeed. We are talking about the masses, not the exceptions. A lot of this is driven as much as desire, rather than IQ
Maybe women generally read more
So there are differences is how much a woman reads and how much a man reads. Sex makes a diffence in that area, but not a difference in standardized tests.
Just admit it. Male and female are different. Some of that difference shows up in scholarly aptitude/performance.
Men and women are generally socialized differently. That’s what you get from me. Your argument justifies misogyny and taken to its logical conclusion in other areas; racism.
Do the arguments “socialized differently” and “Male and female are different” exclude one another?
Liberal White Guilt says race should be a factor when other institutions of higher learning consider applicants. With that in mind, how do historically black colleges and universities (where LWG should have near zero influence) decide which students are accepted into them? Do SAT/ACT scores play a lesser role? If so, is it due to the tests being presumed biased compared to academic achievement/GPA of the student applying? What other factors, other than test scores or prior achievement, have equal or higher consideration excluding economic background? (I excluded economic ability/background because I believe the student should never be penalized or denied admission on that basis alone.)
There’s a lot of discussion on what Ivy League, MIT, and other colleges and universities ‘should’ do to increase diversity. How does merit come into play in the Admissions Departments at say, Grambling State vs Stillman vs Alcorn State vs Howard?
“Liberal White Guilt says race should be a factor when other institutions of higher learning consider applicants”
Just maybe they’re asking to consider past discrimination that excluded those students? White people still have the legacy system which perpetuates their advantage.
“Just maybe they’re asking to consider past discrimination that excluded those students?” Actually, I was looking for your own opinion, instead of what white liberals with guilty consciences might think or say; they’ve been very clear – minorities can’t achieve success without their help. I know that’s horse-shineola and you do, too. Please don’t defend them.
I don’t think “Liberal White Guilt” plays a role in anything. I see it as a right-wing made-up thing that doesn’t exist in the wild. It’s been given a name as an excuse not to do the right thing.
As far as how HBCUs do admissions. Historically, I’m talking 1860-1880 or so, the first schools like Cheney State, Wilberforce, Fisk, and others were closer to elementary schools and gradually increased the level of education. Remember they started from it being illegal to read.
There was a first round of land grant colleges that mostly didn’t include Black schools. During the second wave, there were a number of state-run land grant HBCUs, most of which had A&M in the title that have always been underfunded compared to their white counterparts. In Maryland alone, the four HBCUs were just awarded $577 million to compensate for past underfunding. This has been true all over the country.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/maryland-s-four-hbcus-awarded-577-million-in-underfunding-lawsuit/ar-BB1gHkpF
Current admission standards at HBCUs are all over the place as I understand it. The elite schools, Howard, Spelman, Morehouse, Fisk, Hampton and a few more have very high standards. They at least used to actively compete for students with high SAT/ACT scores but also have programs for students that need more help by sponsoring Pre-college programs to prepare students for admission.
Having played college basketball, I got the opportunity to travel to about 40 other HBCUs over four years. The various state-schools like Savannah State, Alabama State, Florida A&M, and others had guidelines dictated by their state’s Board of Regents and the standards were basically the same as for the Primarily White Institutions. I am aware of some HBCUs whose mission is to be more inclusive but I can’t tell you anything about their specific standards.
You feel that minorities shouldn’t require “help.” While I can’t speak for everyone, it would be nice to have a level playing field that has never existed.
“You feel that minorities shouldn’t require “help.” I’ve never made that statement and completely disagree with that presumption. Underprivileged minorities, just as underprivileged everyone else, do need help with the economic part of a higher education. Every academically-qualified student, regardless of how the college/ university determines that qualifier, should be granted the needed funding assistance to meet tuition, books, and room and board and/or have a sliding-scale the student and family can reasonably meet. Not everyone will qualify for scholarships or grants, but the school itself should help the students that are accepted. Government loans are, at best, a last-resort option.
“While I can’t speak for everyone, it would be nice to have a level playing field that has never existed.” Define ‘level playing field’. If you’re unable to identify or unwilling to have any minimum-level standards that apply to every student applicant regardless of race or class, you’ll never reach the theoretical, level field. If you want to throw out SAT scores as a minimum qualifier, ok, then by what other measures do you propose to compare students that meet the level playing-field you seek? As I’ve been (hopefully) clear, financial assistance for students and families who need it is already on the table. No student should be turned down based on that alone. Nor should race. Yes, it still exists, there’s no point denying it. It’s also why I asked about traditionally black institutions of higher learning. Is it safe to say it’s practiced there, too, with racial preferences? It’s wrong when it’s practiced there, too. But there’s nothing wrong with learning and living with people you’re comfortable being with. That’s simply human nature and isn’t racist in and of itself.
At what point do you expect everyone to take responsibility for themselves and accept the consequences of the decisions they make? Blame-shifting is as old as time and has never fixed anything. Nor does living in the past, where minorities of all races were vulnerable to abuse by the tiniest majority in town (ask the Irish and Chinese about their history in a younger United States), then telling students today they’re no better off than those folks were then does them a tremendous disservice. A better option is to yes, talk about reprehensible past transgressions, then point out the success stories of people who’ve surpassed the low-expectations of the majority and achieved far beyond their own expectations. Tell the stories of Frederick Douglass, Oprah Winfrey, Byron Allen, Michael Jordan, Walter Williams, Cheech and Chong, Chris Rock, Will Smith, and Dr. Carson…people who’ve achieved success outside the walls of the University mind-set. If they start by hearing they can’t make it on their own, they’ll never try. You appear to be your own success story. Are you saying it’s despite your circumstances? Then share that story with the younger generation. Give them the encouragement to believe in themselves ‘because’ you’ve made for yourself. It certainly can’t hurt the generation behind us.
Good chat. Stay safe.
Entering “Race” should be illegal on ANY FORM beyond a medical form. My child…white….perfect SAT…astounding accomplishments and grades….was rejected from a number of Ivies…where children who had the RIGHT color with many less accomplishments were accepted! But “She” was lucky…because a white or asian boy has to be THAT much better than her….in the sciences…to be accepted! She tutored many of these lesser kids and was surprised at how inept they were. Ivies don’t let you fail any longer either. Look at any engineering school…you will see it loaded with girls who are MUCH less capable engineers, but are there…because administrators force it! FACT is 45% more men than women score in the top range (1400-1600) of the SAT—up from 31% more men on the old SAT. So liberals will DESTROY THE TEST…
” My child…white….perfect SAT…astounding accomplishments and grades….was rejected from a number of Ivies…where children who had the RIGHT color with many less accomplishments were accepted!”
Two thoughts on your comment. Maybe the Ivies took a look at her father’s social media? Also, how do you know the accepted children of color had less accomplishments? I’m sure you believe it with all your heart but how do you know?
You can bet prospective employers will note the change? Graduate’s from MIT have completed their education because of merit not because of social equity. Will they want someone who can complete the task or someone having difficulty defining “what’s a woman” or in need of a “safe space”?
many prospective employers want diversity drones. So don’t get your hopes up!
many prospective employers want diversity drones. So don’t get your hopes up!
many prospective
employersHR departments, want diversity drones. So don’t get your hopes up!It takes some work, but with networking you can find your way to the person the HR dept sends candidates to.
Big kudos. Then again, engineering is one field where you can’t simply fake it – you either have the knowledge, skills, understanding and can apply them, or not. I think over the next ten years that will be a truth revealed about most professions as we mop up this mess.
The problem is not getting into college. The problem is getting through college. Standardized tests have been shown to be an accurate predictor of performance at the college level. So what happens is, you take the standardized tests out of the equation, you let a bunch of people into college (of all different backgrounds and ethnicities including white kids) who have no business being there, and they flunk out the first semester, or, at that point you are forced to make the decision to take grades out of the equation because grades are “racist” too and then you hand out college degrees all willy nilly. It’s really the intellectual equivalent of printing money and sending checks to people to stay home and then wondering why we have inflation.
Kudos to MIT. Not all high school graduates should go right on to college, even if they did well on standardized tests–at least not at 17 or 18 when they graduate from high school. Many people feel that young adults should get the “college experience”–That is a damned expensive experience. After a little world experience (room and board, responsibilities, holding a “real” job of some sort for 40 hrs, learning to handle their own expenses, and more), most high school graduates will be more ready for college and have a better idea of what they want to study. College should not be a way-station, a holding pattern to life.
True that. As many likely know, there is an intentional gap year in many other countries where kids do service work, internships, etc. would work wonders here IMO. Then again, our kids might use it to smoke out and play Xbox. The institutions are not the only factor at in play here, methinks.
Great idea. Eliminate all objective measirements of skill. I wonder if colleges will apply this philosophy to thier athletic teams.
Kudos to MIT.
It’s “overrode,” not “overrided.”
I was going to post that, but kudos for beating me to that.
How about some colleges should be exclusively merit-based like MIT while some colleges strive to be more diverse with less emphasis or no emphasis on standardized tests. There are plenty of good colleges to satisfy every student’s needs and aspirations.
Jeff, in other words schools like MIT and other science and math based schools should use the tests and schools like Oberlin that promote Gender Studies, Black Studies, Queer Studies, Trans Studies et al should not use the test.
Fast forward ten years: students that went to the non-test schools are begging the government to forgive student loan debt as the students that went to test schools are making huge salaries, have paid off their loans and ARE NOT HIRING the graduates of the non-test schools.
Fast forward twenty years: Jeffsilberman argues to have his school loan forgiven because Fox News has ruined him and made him unable to earn a living. Anonymous blames Trump for his failure to pay off his school loan. Natacha blames racism for her inability to pay off her school loan.
Fast forward thirty years: Chinese Administrator of the United States Xi Ping Jr announces that all American schools will ban entrance exams while the Chinese Homeland will only have TEST SCHOOLS.
Hullbobby,
I’m glad you have a sense of humor
Jeff, just so I understand. Merit based precludes diversity? Sounds like the racism of low expectations. And to extrapolate into the real world, the individual who is most qualified should ALWAYS get the job. And we are back to the ” who decides” conundrum. What if my grandson is not admitted to the college of his choice ? Maybe because he wanted to go there all of his life? Or just because it is close? And he would have tested better than those who did get in? Is it fair that he is excluded? How do we decide fairly when merit is excluded? What are the determining factors? Let me guess.
As with most things” progressive” the equation is backwards. You don’t have the components ” rigged” in order to get a subjective outcome. That is lunacy.
The patients have taken over the asylum.
Paul,
No one is privileged to get into the school of their choice even if they have the grades. The Ivy Leagues turn away most students who have sufficient test scores. Your grandson should apply to several schools because there is no knowing which one will accept him. Hopefully, he is a great athlete and will be recruited and given a full scholarship. Getting into the college of your choice is a bit of a crap shoot. As a betting man, you should know that.
Jeff, point well taken. But my first question was not a rhetorical one. Does merit based preclude diversity? And let me state that any ” formula” that promotes ” diversity” over ability, passion, hard work, creativity, knowledge etc. is just wrong. I think many factors should go into admission. Just like a job application. But I think merit based testing is certainly one of them. Again the goal of the elimination of these tests by those who promote their elimination is that the result of the testing does not give them their desired outcome. That is ass backwards.
I owned a business. Nobody was going to get a job unless they filled out an application. On that application was a prior employee list, education status and personal references.
All of these were vital components in my decision making. Not all were taken equally. But the absolute determining factor was a face to face interview. Now I know that is not possible for all college applicants. So merit based testing gets moved up on the list. It was a small company . about 25 employees. But you know what? My insurance broker who had about 150 trucking companies in his portfolio said that 71% of my employees were minorities. And out of all of his customers I had the lowest rate employee turnover. And I didn’t have a diversity, equity and inclusion department. What I had was a ” can you help me make this business successful” department. And that department had a staff of one. ME.
What those who what to take testing out of the process are really talking about, but won’t say the word, is quotas.
And that is wrong.
while some colleges strive to be more diverse with less emphasis or no emphasis on standardized tests.
Exactly what is the goal in such a system? And what areas are not important in College. Chemistry, math, reading, writing, civics, science, What part of a highschool education is meaningless?
I didn’t say that any part of high school education is meaningless. You have said it. Not I. The goal is to fulfill society’s needs and and to cater to everyone’s desires.
You said there is no need to test for proficiency is some areas. Those areas have no value. It you can ignore proficiency, you can ignore the subject altogether.
Diversity isn’t a goal, it’s a demographic. It has no intrinsic value in and of itself. If I am looking to hire I want the best engineer, doctor, etc. not the best White, Black, male, female or whatever engineer or doctor. Out in the real world the only thing that matters or is relevant is competence.
A student can be competent in many occupations without requiring scientific, medical or engineering skill.
Jeff, no reply to my comments/ questions from April 6 8 :42 am?
I did