Lawyer Linked to Hunter Biden Hit With Ethics Complaint

For those of us who have closely followed the Hunter Biden scandal, one figure remains mysterious in his role in the possible tax violations by the President’s son. Kevin Morris is a wealthy entertainment lawyer who reportedly paid off as much as $2.8 million in back taxes for Hunter. I have previously discussed the relationship and expressed uncertainty as to whether Morris was acting as a friend or a lawyer (use of personal funds in a representational matter can present ethical issues). Now, Morris is the subject of an ethics complaint by the conservative group Marco Polo, which lured him into a hoax exchange over disproving the laptop allegations.

In the aftermath of the New York Times and other media admitting that the Hunter Biden laptop was authentic all along, President Biden has shifted from his long denial of any wrongdoing to a type of addiction defense.

Morris received a text from “Jon Cooper” on May 19 saying he worked with an “OpSec [operations security] collective who has been breaking down the laptop.”  Morris took the bait in encouraging Cooper to share material on discrediting those who were using the laptop to implicate the Bidens. At one point, according to the Daily Mail, Morris tells Cooper “You know this is historic, right? Like you’re a hero. Like for reals.”

Morris allegedly threatened with the group’s association and engaged in unprofessional language after learning that he had been hoodwinked by the emails.

Morris was allegedly eager to get the faux researcher to produce material to deny the story.

Morris reportedly called the associate a “f***ing moron’, ‘f***nuts” and threatened that “I’m going to take all your money.” He added that “I know where you live” and “You’re going to enjoy being a buttboy for 20 years dude. Lube up.”

We have previously discussed such bullying rhetoric from lawyers like Michael Cohen. I have long denounced such threats as a scourge in our profession. Cohen, however, was disbarred for his crimes, not for his abusive conduct as a lawyer.

I am always a bit skeptical of such complaints, which can raise free speech issues in the curtailment of public speech. This includes past cases where I have opposed discipline for public criticism of judges.

This complaint, however, returns to the dangerously vague relationship between Morris and Biden. Was this an attorney-client relationship or a persona relationship? If it was the latter, the effort to discipline Morris would be even more problematic in my view.

In seeking to dismiss this action, Morris will have to add some clarity on that relationship. If he was acting as counsel, his financial transactions made prove more damaging then his verbal transgressions.

93 thoughts on “Lawyer Linked to Hunter Biden Hit With Ethics Complaint”

  1. As usual, all depends on the judge. Counting my blessings everyday that I no longer need to practice law

  2. What is stunning is that Hunter has (had) a tax bill of 2 to 3 million dollars. In the real world, there are gift tax consequences on top of that amount. What? How does a person get by with that? The IRS comes a knocking when they are short a few dollars from a regular citizen.

    This is the 900 pound gorilla in the room. Can we say audit? When does the trip wire finally trigger a full forensic audit? Oh, I forgot. We have two sets of rules, one for the regular folks and one for the ruling class.,

    This whole saga is bizarre. Hunter, according to his own account, has been the front man for the whole Biden family operation. He seems to be a tortured soul, and tired, especially now.

    “But I don’t receive any respect and that’s fine I guess. Works for you, apparently. I hope you all can do what I did and pay for everything for this entire family for 30 years. It’s really hard, but don’t worry, unlike Pop (Joe Biden) I won’t make you give me half your salary.”
    Hunter Biden to daughter Naomi, 2019

  3. Trying to understand what the Ethics Complaint is about here? The Marco Polo group misrepresented who they were when contacting this lawyer, and the lawyer cursed/threatened in response? That does not sound like wrongdoing on the lawyer’s part, it sounds like wrongdoing on the Marco Polo group’s part.

  4. You may be more comfortable….or less comfortable. “But you won’t know the difference.” …(dead) .do you remember 1908? Then why do you care if you remember 2008? Fist from the ‘ I care a lot” movie! No body cares. Inflation is rampant……and what do we do? Pour gas on the fire!!!! Yeah watch it burn! tires on the old railroad….So eighties! we give you all social security….cola…cost of living to keep buying at inflated prices…..okay they paid in for that promise…..But now 25% get a government dime promised by inflation! So so many get a raise…..”General” parties gets an 8.9 percent raise……on his already inflated no one else gets pension framework. Yeah 69 year old generals taking in ten thousand a month……their cost of living went up 8.9%……did it? But he sees his whole pension rise all ten grand a month….whilst the most someone on social security can get is…..based off 2790 and so a month. Is x too offset their groceries! It doesnt take much to do the math! When one quarter of our working population works for the government. We ain’t stupid. The question is how much longer do we worship you and you annointed?

    1. Compare….a nam vet get getting a cola increase of ten percent……if he was full diasabitlity…..about 300 a month. For him and his wife. Maybe covers the grocery differential. By inflation. Whereas the general gets a thousand a month… cola….How much food can his wife eat? And both them are getting it off my brother’s back! You should absolutely worry about my brother’s back.!!! You have no consideration for my brother’s or in in- law. You think you are going to stick them with the tab while also thinking you’ll draft them! You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you want people to pay outrages taxes for all ” self these sacrificing heroes….. ” then let us off the draft hook! But you don’t you want me to pay their cola…..and still be on your hook? To be the one who ends up dead. No deal! And the most I’ll pay in cola to all these “service’s men is the cola to support needs……not an across the how d raise. generals with only one side to feed who gets out pig pig rations!when 25percent of jobbs are government jobs…… We the people can’t afford to pay you cola anymore because that is fuel on a fire!

      1. At any rate is like to see the feds analysis on inflation predicted in january…..when the government checks full of kerosene come out. When the 25% or more get their govt check…..and expect everyone else is cool about working to pay it off!!!!!! Pretty much delineates the parties for their civil war. …..they line for and amplify!

  5. The United States is a laughing stock on the global stage. Clinton / Obama / Biden Inc did this to us
    Americans hate each other.
    Lies are declared truths
    Truths are ruled hate speech
    Biden has at a minimum mild cognitive impairment and memory loss, and everyone knows it.
    The DOJ makes the KJB look like patsies, pursuing parents, Catholics and ProLifers as terrorists.
    Our country is not slouching but prone for any nation to walk over us
    We are in total disarray
    Our universities have decreased while European and Asian universities climbed in global rankings

    Meanwhile the Axis of Evil gathers strength. Russia likely but China definitely believes war with the West is inevitable. Mao Zedong lives in Xi Jinping.

    Xi Jinping’s Endgame: A China Prepared for Conflict With the U.S.
    Since rising to power a decade ago, Xi Jinping has unleashed an array of campaigns to help ensure that China would prevail in, or at least withstand, a confrontation with the West. He has bolstered China’s military, reorganized the economy and remade society around a more ideologically committed Communist Party.

    Only the fit survive, which is less than a third of the nation.
    Get busy, America.

    1. Estovir,

      Even I can agree at times with Islamist when they are running off the Pedo Child molesters that have infiltrated the Teachers Unions & schools everywhere.

      The Pedo Teachers Unions are even spreading that Peco crap here in Oklahoma.


      HUNDREDS of Muslim Parents Shut Down Dearborn, Michigan School Board Meeting Over Democrat-Endorsed Child Porn Books
      By Jim Hoft
      Published October 11, 2022 at 6:22pm

    2. The only US President who has been a laughingstock is the fat orange clown who inspired “baby Trump” and “Trump on the toilet” balloons that would be displayed when he would travel overseas. Biden has a speech impediment. Period. His cognition is fine, but alt right media know their disciples are gulllible and fall for lies that equate stuttering with dementia or cognitive impairment. Trump has malignant narcissism, is a sociopathic, chronic liar, bully, misogynist and xenophobe who nearly destroyed our economy. This country is far from being in “total disarray”, but was in January, 2021 when it was handed over to Biden who: 1. turned around the worst economy since the Great Depression, all due to Trump’s incompetence, the trade war he started with China that caused shortages of computer chips and consumer goods, and caused unnecessary deaths and illnesses because he was clueless what to do about COVID and refused to defer to public health experts who warned him about how serious COVID was and the steps needed to curb the spread until a vaccine could be developed; Trump admitted lying about the seriousness of COVID in interviews with Bob Woodward: read his book “Rage”, published in September, 2020, before Election Day. Trump also told Woodward he would claim victory even if he lost, which the polls predicted would happen and did happen; 2. Biden turned around Trump’s 10% unemployment to virtually full employment; 3. got major legislation passed: the CHIPS Act, the infrastructure act, COVID relief and relief for veterans injured by burn pits; all Trump did was get a tax cut passed that mostly benefitted the very wealthy. That drove our national debt to record levels, and interest on this debt alone is contributing to inflation; 4. Biden got schools, businesses and restaurants open again, people can go on vacation and travel again.

      We have inflation, which always follows a recession, but Biden is taking steps to bring it under control. If Trump hadn’t caused such a deep recession, inflation wouldn’t be as bad as it is now. Trump’s deference to Putin, a murderer and dictator, plus his insults to EU and NATO allies, emboldened Putin to invade Ukraine because he believed that the rest of the world was so upset with the US that an effective defense couldn’t be mounted. He was wrong. Biden pulled together EU and NATO allies, and Finland, Sweden and Ukraine have petitioned to join NATO. These things would not have happened if Trump could have cheated his way back into office a seond time. You say “lies are considered truths”–what could possibly be a more-fitting description of Trump’s: 1. Big Lie; 2. claim of right to possess classified documents, claim all had been returned, claim that he is a “victim” of the “deep state” and polliticizing and raising money from his theft of classified documents? And, who appointed you to speak to what’s in the mind of China or its leaders?

      1. Gigi, this is not a speech impediment.
        I had a father with vascular dementia, and friends with Alzheimers.
        This is dementia. It is slower moving than vascular dementia.
        I would be happy to be wrong – in which case Biden is just a moron.
        But I am not, and it is not getting better.

        For his own sake he should not be president.
        What this looks like is that the Biden Syndicate was more concerned about milking the government tit for a few more years, than Joe Biden’s quality of life for his last years. While presidents have lots of creature comforts, the job is demanding and he can not do it.
        We once again have an incompetent president with his wife or others actually running the show.

        Further Democrats are building a meme – the last time we did this was Woodrow Wilson.

      2. Biden is getting booed – and not just in the US.
        Biden is weak. He just stupidly blackmailed the Saudi’s and they refused to give him what he wanted.
        Now he has to back up the threat – sucking democrats in congress int this to try and hide the fact that They just impeached Trump for this.
        And carrying out the threat is idiocy. This was a horrible blunder, there is no good outcome. and he has made it obvious he is weak.

        Weak presidents are dangerous.
        Many factors lead Putin to invade Ukraine – every one of those a mistake on the Biden admins part.
        But high among those was Biden was perceived as weak.
        Subsequently Biden had to play the strong man – the US is pouring billions into a war that never needed to happen While Biden tries to pump up his image as a strong president by dancing on the edge of nuclear war.

        Trump did not have the crisis’s that Biden has – Because Trump is not this stupid.

        1. There is no one weaker than a malignant narcissist whose ego is so fragile that he can be swayed with flattery: that perfectly describes Trump, and the Chinese, Saudis, Putin, Erdogan and the rest of the world all know it. I don’t know where Hannity, Tucker and the other liars at Fox get the nerve to speak for the mindset of other world leaders, but it’s an outright lie to claim that the rest of the world views Biden as weak. Biden has pulled together our EU and NATO llies. The rest of the world sees the truth, especially about Trump and what a total loser he has always been: fake persona as a self-made billionaire boy-wonder who thinks he charms everyone, and who has failed at more businesses and other ventures than most others would see in a lifetime. He’s a total phony and almost everyone knows it, except the disciples, of course.

          Trump was impeached for trying to leverage Congressional aid to Ukraine in exchange for ginning up lies about Biden and for starting an insurrection because he lost a free and fair election. Yes, weak Presidents ARE dangerous, as Trump’s stupidity and failures prove. The rest of the world knows Trump is all bluster and bragging, and that he’s dumb as a rock. Putin had his fat, orange errand-boy for 4 years, and he carried out his errands: insulting America’s EU and NATO allies, lobbied to try to get Russia back into the G-7, kissing up to Putin, former KGB agent and a murderer, but the worst of all was publicly siding against his own intelligence and in favor of Russia at Helsinki. Trump promised to get the US out of NATO if he could have cheated his way back into power a second time–and who do you think told him to do this? Biden has restored these fragile relationships, and now NATO is stronger than ever, and it is NATO that is helping Ukraine to hold off Russia. Sweden, Finland and Ukraine have all petitioned to join NATO.

          Trump is the CAUSE of all of the major crises Biden has faced: 1. Afghanistan: despite publicly pushing the Big Lie, once it was clear to Trump he had lost, he ignored the advice of military leaders and pulled all but 2,500 troops out. All of our military leaders cautioned against it, but Trump didn’t listen. He also turned loose 5,000 imprisoned Taliban, didn’t arrange for any air or land base, and didn’t involve the Afghanis in negotiations, so they just gave up. This set the stage for the disasterous withdrawal that Republicans try to blame Biden for; 2. COVID: raged out of control while Trump fought off advice from public health officials, lied and downplayed the seriousness, pushed quack cures like Hydroxychloroquine, refused to set an example by wearing a mask and insisted on dominating news conferences instead of letting the doctors talk freely because they wouldn’t go along with his lies and fake predictions about when the crisis would pass; 3. trade war with China: caused shortages of consumer goods and computer chips, which Biden has passed the Chips Act to try to mitigate. There are shortages of goods now that the economy is back, which is driving up prices, helping to fuel inflation. 4. tax breaks for millionaires pushed the national debt to record levels, which was predicted. Interest on these loans is helping drive inflation. Biden has brought that down by several trillion. If there’s one thing Trump knows nothing about, it’s finance. He’s always been deeply in debt, and relied on his Daddy to bail him out of one financial mess after another. After his father passed, the bankruptcies started. He did it to the US, too–national debt at a record level; 5. the economy: Trump inherited a booming economy created by Obama from the ashes of Bush’s disasterous presidency, and he turned it into the worst economy since the Great Depression. His mishandling of COVID forced factories, schools, businesses and restaurants to shut down for almost 2 years, people lost their jobs–10% unemployment rate, and those who were able to work from home did so. Fuel prices were driven down because school buses weren’t running, businesses were closed down with people working from home, and not taking vacations. Now that Biden has brought us back, demand is high, but supply hasn’t ramped up. Plus, sanctions against Russia have helped drive fuel prices higher, which is a worldwide phenomenon. Trump’s irresponsible handling of COVID caused an estimated 130,000 unnecessary American deaths. By every measure, Trump has been the worst president in recent US history. Biden has done an amazing job of bringing us back.

          1. Natasha, your endless lies and repetition is boring. Are you able to back anything up that you say? It appears you are not able.

          2. Gigi,

            Guess what – in the real world you have to deal with other people – some of them are malignant narcicists – I would suggest calling them that is NOT the way to win their favor.

            I do not like the Saudis – or pretty much all mid-eastern leaders, I am no fan of Putin.
            I would absolutely agree that there is absolutely no excuse justifying is invasion of Ukraine, and in a perfect world, he would be forced to leave.

            But we do not live in a perfect world.
            If you want oil or gas – you must either drill for it in the US or deal with Putin, the Saudi’s Iran, Madoro, or any number of other pretty bad people.

            You left wing nuts capped US production – leaving you stuck dealing with one malignant narcisict or another.
            Or getting wiped out at the mid-terms because prices are so high people will not vote for you – because they are not stupid, they know who screwed the pooch.

            Separately Putin has 50% of all the nukes in the world. Like it or not that means we do not have the same choices in dealing with him in Ukraine.
            Or are you saying “to hell with the nukes, push Putin back to Russia even if that brings about 3B deaths” ?

            I have strong principles – but at the top of the list is, there is nothing worth killing 3billion people over.

            Something that should have informed our foreign police BEFORE Ukraine got invaded.

            As I noted before Obama was actually trying to improve US relations with Russia and Putin – while dealing with Stupid Own Goal misconduct by Biden and Clinton in his own administration. Clinton’s lies about Trump and Russia – force the entire left, and media and obama to make it impossible for Trump to improve relations with Putin or Russia.

            Why exactly is it that you left wing nuts are so stupid that you just HAVE to keep poking the bear ?

            Nobody says Putin is a good guy. He is a not so hot guy with 6000 nukes.
            Nobody has asked you to sleep with him.
            Just quit being stupid and constantly poking him.

            Whether you like it or not – it is in the best interests of humanity to stop this war BEFORE it kills half the world and send the other half back to the dark ages. And ending the war almost certainly means NOT destroying Russia and Putin.
            You can hope of r a coup if you want – but those most likely to take Putin out in Russia think he is being too restrained.
            You should never forget that sometimes god punishes us by giving us what we want.
            Russia could have an even more dangerous leader than Putin

            Please I beg of you.

            Take a step back, chill out and think about Whether you are willing to risk obliterating the world to get whatever you want.

            I would remind you – that you can not cancel Putin or russia. You can remove him from Social Media, but that will not change the fact that he has 6000 nukes. There is no “safe space” from Putin.

            Facts are stuborn things – they do not step aside because left wing nut ideologues wish the facts were different.

            We are going to have to deal with Putin and all the rest of those people you have just called malignant narcicists.
            If that is true – do you think it is a good idea ?
            Biden said he would never shake hands with the Saudi’s easy to say for a demented person on a soap box.
            Biden found being president was not so easy.
            Because of his own energy screwups. And because he triggered a War in Ukraine with someone holding half the worlds nukes and nearly all of Europe’s energy, he ended up having to go begging to the Saudi’s and others of those malignant narcists,
            And he got his hat handed to him.

            Biden has always been weak – the world knows it. He is weaker now than ever.

            Weak presidents are dangerous – they are more likely to do stupid things that suck us into wars to look strong.
            Actually strong leaders can do what is right, not what looks good.

          3. Gigi,
            We have the transcript of the phone call to Zellenski,
            We know what Trump said about the Biden’s.
            It was very little. He asked Zelenski to look into their prior conduct in Ukraine.
            At that time we did not have the Hanter Biden laptop – though I beleive the FBI did.
            But we did have hundreds of documents from Ukraine itself, court documents from Ukraine and eastern Europe, depositions,
            as well as hundreds of documents recovered via FOIA requests from the US state department specifically, but also the Vice Presidents office,
            and other government agencies.
            There are no “Lies” – the Biden’s syndicates involvement is Ukraine was extensive, highly suspicious and with near certainty criminal.
            But that is not the Standard Trump had to meet. All Trump was required to have to request an investigation was the possibility that the conduct was criminal. Given this was foreign relations – possibly not even that.
            The left has claimed there was a threat and a quid pro quo – yet all the testimony congress took never produced either, Trump had very little involvement in Ukraine beyond the phone call with Zelenski and one conversation with the EU ambassador, where Trump was explicitly asked if the Aide was to be connected in any way to a slew of things – including investigations beyond the Biden’s and Trump refused to connect them.

            YOU have set the impeachment bar to anything a president does that is politically beneficial – and by YOUR standard Biden is obviously guilty and should be impeached and removed.

            Of course YOU standard is obviously bogus. It will likely take some time, but I expect history to rememberdemocrats and the left of the current era as Politically corrupt and destructive of our institutions.

            I would note that the Military Aide to Saudi Arabia was congressionally authorized, and there is absolutely no doubt that Biden told the Saudi’s that if they did not delay the production cut until after the election that he would delay their aide for a year. He did not have congressional authorization to do that. The purpose of Biden’s blackmail was blatantly political. Democrats are NOW rushing to turn Biden’s threat into legislation – they will likely fail – regardless you can not undo corruption by congressional authorizzation after the fact – and if you succeed in getting congress to authorize this – all that will do is make democratic congressmen part of the corrupt act.

            You are quite littlerlly blackmailing a foreign Allie over military aide for the purpose of political advantage in an election.
            If as you claimed with Trump that is impeachable – IT STILL IS.

            Worse still Biden has for the past month been busy PROVING the allegations regarding Ukraine.
            First is his hot mike remarks that “no one F#$Ks with a Biden”, and then there is the obviously political and obviously seeking advantage in an election blackmail of a foreign Ally. Do I need to replay the Youtube Video of Biden in 2015 saying “Fire the prosecutor investigating the business my son represents, or a Billion Dollars in Aide to Ukraine dries up” ?

            So lets look at reality:
            2015 Biden – Personal benefit, Overt Threat, indisputable Quid Pro Quo.
            2019 Trump – Political benefit, no threat, No QPQ
            2021 Biden – Political benefit – to the entire democratic party, Overy Threat, indisputable Quid Pro Quo.

            This idiotic nonsense of “But Biden did it with his fingers crossed, or on a monday, therefore it does not count” is just stupid and hypocritical.

          4. When dealing with those of you on the left – in particularly you I am reminded of the nonsense that prosecutors went through years ago.

            There were a series of Criminal cases where defendants tried to argue innocence, claiming that SSRI’s or other legal drugs were the real cause of their conduct. Though there was atleast one instance were a defendant tried to blame his conduct on Hostess Twinkies – hence these defenses earned the name “the twinky defense”. I beleive the killer of Democrat Harvey Milk in San Francisco raised the Twinky Defense.

            Prosecutors rushed to congress demanding laws to bar the dreaded “twinky defense” terrified that juries might let murders and serial killers off.
            For all I know some state actually passed laws barring the infamous twinky defense.

            This was ludicrous – Juries were not swayed by the Twinky Defense. If the best you can do when charged with murder is raise the twinky defense – go ahead, everyone sees through it.

            Everything the left, democrats, You argue – is just twinky defense nonsense.

            Biden’s conduct is not exactly the same as Trump’s – it is worse. On multiple occasions.
            Most people see that despite your claims.

            Further you get the actual facts wrong – in all cases.
            The Aide Biden threatened to delay or withdraw in 2015 and 2022 was congressionally authorized.
            Both of Biden’s threats are Overt. There is no doubt Biden threatened the Ukrainians or the Saudis. There is no actual Threat by Trump.
            In 2015 Biden was seeking an illegitimate personal benefit – using government power. in 2022 he was seeking a political benefit in an election using government power. Trump sought legitmate actions by the Ukrainians that might have political benefit.

            By any reasonable standard – Biden’s conduct is more egregious.

            But go ahead with the “twinky defense”

          5. Insult Trump all you want. Most of your insults are just stupid and obviously false.

            Stupid people do not succeed at Residential real estate in NYC, commercial real estate in NYC, Cassino’s, Beauty Pagents. Golf Courses, World Class Hotels, Televison Entertainment and Politics – just to name the things I can remember. Success in multiple fields is the strongest indicator of actual genius. This is the feature of people like Franklin or Newton.

            But lets Pretend Trump was stupid, Lets pretend he was Putin’s erand boy, lets pretend that he was a clown in Europe.

            For 4 years – the US started no new military conflicts and substantially reduced our military involvement world wide.
            For 4 years – Putin did not invade anybody. He invaded Checknya under Clinton, Georgia under Bush. Crimea under Obama, and Ukraine under Biden. But Putin did not invade anybody under Trump.
            The mideast was more peaceful under Trump. It is less peaceful now.
            The risk of global nuclear anhilation under Trump was far from our minds. Biden has it on nearly everyone’s mind.

            We had 3 years of stable almost 3% growth and one pandemic year with ultimately zero growth after democrat lockdowns.
            Now we are back on the Obama economic yoyo – only worse.
            There was almost no inflation under Trump,
            There is 40 year record inflation under Biden.

            And it goes on and on and on.

            Biden is a failure

            Lots of republicans attack his competence.

            Democrats should PRAY he has dementia – because it would be much worse if he was this big a F#$Kup without the fig leaf of dementia.

            It would take thousands of words to list all the things Biden has F@#K’d up in less than 2 years.

            But this is not a contest between Trump and Biden.

            Biden is an abject failure PERIOD – by any standard and compared to any president since Buchannon.

            No one shoudl be talking about whether Biden runs in 2024. He should resign now, and go home to Delaware to be with his family.
            I would guess he prefers the WH because his family Sucks. The only decent member died years ago.

            I think Harris will be a worse president. But that is irrelevant. It is past Time for Biden to go.
            It was past time for Biden to go in 2016. But like a Zombie he returned.

            Unlike your visceral hatred of Trump – I do not hate Biden – though despite the demented grandfather image he has cultivated for many decades, he does not appear to be a good person.
            I just want him gone.

          6. Are you really still trying to argue Covid ?

            Here is the JHU Covid Dashboard.
            You can look at actual data for the US and the world.


            Your arguments are full of schiff.

            Many of the bad things you talk about under Trump – did happen – only in some blue states.
            Much of the country did NOT do the stupid and destructive things that blue state governors did.

            The results ? No difference with regard to Covid, but far less economic damage.

            There is only one fundimental difference Between Trump and Biden regarding Covid.

            Biden promised he could do better, Biden – like you claimed that Covid actually listens to experts – which it obviously does not.

            Biden actually did worse with Covid that Trump – but that is not his fault – C19 does not give a $hit about What Fauxi are other Faux experts claim.

            What is his fault – and yours is LYING about it.

            Masks do not work – our public health experts knew that or shoudl have from the start. 14 Randomized Control Tests of Masks in the 21st century have ALL found no statistically significant reduction in the transmission of ANY respirator virus.

            Beyond that – the data has been solid since May 2020, There is not a single public policy response that has been effective with Covid.

            At this point all but the Blind can see that for all the left’s derision of HCQ or Ivarmectin – at the very worst – they are as effective as masks. vaccines, lockdowns, all other public health attempts to reign in Covid.

            Nothing has worked.

            In eleven Months Trump had 300K deaths. In 22 Months Biden has almost 800K.

            No place in the world has stopped Covid.

            You can completely predict Covid anywhere form Demographics and geography.

            If anything it is the public health eqperts efforts to “flatten the curve” that have resulted in Covid likely becoming endemic.

          7. The business model of all real estate businesses is debt leveraged profits.

            If Trump was not in debt he would not be making money.
            Please read ANYTHING about real estate investing.

            Trump has lost money – most people in business do.

            Musk blew up the first 5 rockets he launched. SpaceX lost money for a decade.

            Amazon was under water for its first decade.

      3. Do you think none of us were alive in 2020 ? That we do not remember ?
        Inflation does not follow recession. It is caused SOLELY by bad monetary policy.
        That poor policy can be traced all the way back to our response to the financial crisis.
        Trump’s Covid spending made this worse, but the single largest contributing factor responsible for most of the inflation is Biden’s massive spending coupled with the fed monetizing the debt.
        This massive spending is also why Biden saw relatively good growth in 2021.
        But the benefits of the spending are going and the monetized debt hits us with a double whamy.

        Trump had 3 years of nearly 3% growth that was not debt financed. The US economy should be averaging 3.5%, so 3% is subpar.
        But it is the best sustained growth in the 21st century.
        Biden like Obama has returned us to the roller coaster, High growth one quarter tanking the next.
        Trump had a recordbreaking drop in GDP due to the 2020 lockdowns, with an equally dramatic recovery – growth we have never seen before.
        The net result was zero growth in 2020 despite Covid. Regardless, there was no recession under Trump.
        We are headed into a recession with Biden. Given that we have had 2Q of mild negative growth and at best stopped inflation from getting worse – this recession is not over, and will get worse. Nor is this in doubt. The Fed is trying to cause a recession to bring inflation down – that is how it works. They are trying to keep the recession mild – so far the recession is mild, but inflation is not coming down. That means this will get worse.

        In Jan 2021 Biden inherited a country that had a tail wind. He could have done nothing and been viewed as a great president.
        Instead he has F#$ked up – the mess we have now is HIS mess – All of it, inflation. recession, rising violence, rising global political instability.
        Democrats own all of it.

        All this talk about a red wave in November – that is Democrats fault. Had you just done nothing – you could have coasted to high approval, a strong economy, and continued control of government.
        If there is not a red tsunami in November – that is because Republicans stepped on their own d#$k.

      4. Left wing nuts seem to think that what someone says that someone else said is more important than what people did.

        Woodward profits by selling books. I do not care what he says Trump told him. I do not care what Trump told him.
        I care what was done.
        What was done was NJancy Pelosi unconstitutionally locked down the capital while in session and a large election protest slammed into her locked doors and in some places turned into a riot. That is regretable. It is not close to the horror of one night in portland. No one brought guns, no molotov cocktails, no lasers blinding police, no frozen water bottles, no rocks. Republicans are just not very good rioters.
        Aside from the west tunnel where the capitol Police violated the rules of engagement and started using lethal force against protesters resulting in the most violent responses, the remainder of the protest was relatively peaceful.

        Putin invaded a neighbor when Clinton was president, when Bush was president, When Obama was president, and when Biden was president.
        Trump is the only president that Putin remained peaceful. Further Putin invaded other countries everytime the US and NATO started talking about letting a country bordering Russia into NATO. Putin invaded other countries when he thought the US was weak and distracted.

        Multiple factors drove Putin to invade Ukraine – every one a blunder on the part of Biden.
        Biden strangled US oil and gas to apease the left. This weakened europe, made them more dependent on Russia, held russia build up currancy reserves.
        Biden and NATO countries started talking about Ukraine joining NATO – myriads of experts on eastern europe predicted that would end badly.
        In the Past the US and NATO talked about Georgia joining NATA – Russian invaded.
        Clinton fostered an anti-russia coup in Ukraine – Russia invaded Crimea.
        Obama’s relations with Putin were a feckless roller coaster. Alternatingly fawning and trying to strike deals and then sanctioning.
        Are you so young that you have forgotten Urainium One ? Or the 140M that the Clinton foundation collected from Russian Oligarchs, or the 1/2 million speaking fee paid to Bill Clinton ?
        The collusion delussion has always been absurd. Durham is barred from telling the Jury that Danchenko was a russian asset – But you know, or should know. The only 2016 campaign collusion with Russia was Clinton. And the actual CIA assessment was that Putin beleived he could work with Clinton, but not trump.
        I have no doubt Trump wanted a friendly relationship with Putin as president. But far more important than Sanctions or all the lefts idiocy about Putin was that Trump’s america First policies near universally weakened Russia. Abundant energy makes the entire world more peaceful and disempowers Putin and other oil thugs. Pushing Europe to abandon their green nonsense nd return to actually sustainable energy policy – makes the entire world safer and deters Russian agression. Pushing Europe to stregthen its own defense, deters russia, and frees the US to concentrate our forces in Asia which is the most important focus of foreign affairs and the greatest threat to global security.
        Finally Biden projected weakness from the start of his presidency.

        A few days ago in Florida Biden was caught on an open mike saying “nobody f#$ks with a Biden” – Saudi Arabia just replied – everyone F#$ks with the Biden’s.
        With Biden as president the US has gone begging to foriegn countries multiple times – and come up empty handed.
        That is real disrespect, That is the best evidence of weakness you could possibly have.
        And again All of his own making.
        The current threat of nuclear annihilation is small, but it is real. It is more real than it has been since the Cuban Missile Crisis.
        And again – it is Biden’s making.
        This war should not have happened. But given that it has there are good reasons for the US to provide assistance to Ukraine.
        There are good reasons to use this to weaken Russia. But that is a dangerous game.
        “A nuclear war can never be won, and must never be fought,”
        Ronald Reagan 1984 SOTU.
        There was an opportunity for negotiated peace in the spring. Biden tanked it.

        You say Biden is not demented – that only makes things WORSE, mental incompetence is an understandable excuse.

        1. Literally EACH of your Fox talking points is a lie. I’m not going to waste time going through all of them on a beautiful fall Sunday because you are a delusional fan of the fat orange slob liar. But here’s one: Uranium One: HILLARY CLINTON HAD NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THAT. Stop lying about it.

          1. “Literally EACH of your Fox talking points is a lie.”
            Nope. Do not follow Fox.
            But I do follow the facts.

            “I’m not going to waste time going through all of them on a beautiful fall Sunday because you are a delusional fan of the fat orange slob liar.”
            Not a Trump fan.
            But I do look to correct garbage.
            And you do not live in the real world
            Your posts are filled end to end with complete nonsense.
            You do not even have events in anything close to the same order.
            And you have no grasp of basic economics.

            “But here’s one: Uranium One: HILLARY CLINTON HAD NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THAT. Stop lying about it.”
            That is debateable, but irrelevant.
            Uranium One WAS a deal the US made with Russia during the Obama Administration.
            My argument – which you completely missed was that when Biden and Clinton were not screwing up in Russian and Ukraine,
            Obama was actually seeking to build a good relationship with Putin – Something that was actually WISE.
            That repeatedly went to H311 – because of Clinton shenanigans, then Biden shenanigans, and they Clinton Caliming Russia stole the election which resulted in Obama sanctioning the crap out of Russia.
            Given what we now know about the 2016 Election – not only do YOU, The Left, Clinton, the media, Obama owe Trump an apology – you also owe Putin and the russian people an apology.

            I know such things are impossible for you – orange man bad an all that.

            Nor am I trying to make excuses for Putin.
            At the same time you can add sanctioning the crap out of Putin for something he did not do to the list of Reasons he was pissed and invaded Ukraine.

            Regardless, to repeat the point – OBAMA sought to improve relations with Putin and Russia – that was a GOOD thing Obama tried.
            The Uranium One deal is EVIDENCE of OBAMA seeking better relations with Russia. We can debate the merits of the deal. We can debate how much corruption was involved. We can debate Clinton’s involvement.
            But the FACT is that it is absolute evidence that OBAMA sought improved relations with Russia

            I know that you left wing nuts can not get past Today’s narrative of Putin = Hitler to remember that at one point the Obama “the anointed One” was actually heavily involved in improving relations with Russia.
            AND THAT WAS GOOD.

            Of course you had to go all ape$hit because I mentioned that Hillary and Biden F#$ked that up during the obama administration – and later.

          2. I do not follow fox, and my Facts – what you keep calling “talking points” are readily available from many sources – some in econ 101 texts, some just being old enough to remember the last time the Fed had to deal with inflation this high.

            But you do have a separate problem here.

            A FACT does not become false because you think (or even actually) Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity said it.

            The NY Times is actually right on occasion.

            Regardless, if your only source of information is inside your own bubble – then quoting John Stuart Mill (Clue: he has never appeared on Fox)

            “He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion… Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them…he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.”

            ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

        2. Take notice that GiGi’s comments have changed all the replies to Turley’s article. This is what Dems and paid trolls do on sites like this. Whenever the conversation speaks about truth and facts, a troll like GiGi turns to Trump as a game changer. Trying to convince a troll about facts and truths is a waste of time.

          1. I have no expectations of changing Gigi’s mind.

            But she makes fake claims
            Refuting them provides information for others.

      5. You are correct Sweden and Finland would not have joined NATO and NATO would not have come together to defend Ukraine.

        Because there would be no war.
        So long as the US was capable of providing the EU all the enregy it needed – Russia had no leverage over the EU.
        So long as The US and NATO refrained from saying stupid things like maybe Ukraine should join NATO – Russia had no reason to attack Ukraine.
        So long as the US had a strong leader as president that Putin feared and respected – Russia was not attacking Ukraine.

        It is likely that a 2nd Trump term would have seen US relations with Russia improve, as the Collusion delusion nonsense died and it became possible for Trump to work with Putin.
        I would note that the US and Russia worked together in the Mideast under Trump – But Trump made it absolutely clear – the US was in control, and US pilots would shoot down Russian jets if they interfered in US operations, and US Frigates countered Russian Frigates when they tried to interfere with US goals and objectives. Trump made it clear who was in charge.

        During the Trump administration the Saudi’s were not snubbing us every change they got. Trump struck win-win deals with the Saudis that were good for us and good for them. Biden has gone to them hat in hand twice and not only been rebuffed, but had his bluff called when he threatened them.

        Do you honestly think that the Saudis respect Biden ?

        We have gone 30 years without thinking of the threat of nuclear war. Now it is in the back of all our minds.

        My wife and I adopted children specifically because the fear f nuclear annihilation had passed.
        Now my kids are growing up with the same fear I had 40 years ago.
        If something starts within a few hours 300m people will be dead – 100m in the US, Within a year 3B people – almost half the world will be dead, and the west will be set back a century. The only people still alive in the US, EU, Russia will be hundreds of miles from anything important.

        We have not even thought about that for 30 years. Now it is constantly coming to mind.
        It is likely this will pass – but not soon enough, and not without cost.
        We already has spikes in crime, suicide, drug overdoses, violence, anxiety and depression from Covid – add the fear of buclear anhiliation to the mix – do you really think that is a recipe for a bright tomorrow ?

        Those of you on the left – your policies, your president, your arrogance and ignorance have brought this about.

        And you are clueless as to the cuases of inflation and can not seem to remember the country 22 months ago.

  6. “You’re going to enjoy being a buttboy for 20 years dude. Lube up.”

    I always take note of good leftist using homosexuality as a personal smear. Its like they treat them as second class persons, just because to they way they were born.

    Remember when Cobert called President Trump, Putins ‘rooster’ holster….good times

  7. This guy says, “Look Hunter, I’ll pay off your IRS bill if you just give two hundred of my business cards to all your friends in China and around the world.” I bet his return on his investment was very satisfying.

  8. Wouldn’t it be true that a 2.8 million dollar ‘gift’ of money to pay taxes would be itself a taxable income item, thereby increasing Hunter’s tax tab?

  9. A friend has to asks you whats wrong, a good friend has a shoulder for you to cry on, but a best-friend knows where to bury the bodies. I would have to ask where this gentleman would stand in that description. Just asking for a friend.

    1. but a best-friend knows where to bury the bodies

      That’s a good metric, but it leaves out this level of friendship

      This happened locally about 10 years ago.

      A girl drove home way too drunk. She hit a man, and he lodged in her windshield, head first. She made it home, into the garage and called a “good friend” and told her she needed help. The friend showed up, in the wee hours of the morning, surveyed the disaster….and pitched in, to get the still alive man out of the windshield and into the trunk of her car, and found a spot to dump the now deceased man.

      Now, that’s a friend.

    2. Well e said his bff too China spy was mia! Come on man..either that was real or inter was delusional!

  10. Boy oh boy. Wouldn’t you like to have a good buddy who payed off 2.8 million in back taxes for you. Maybe one of the 87,000 new IRS agents should look into this Biden kid. I’m sure that they just won’t be able to fit it into their workload. After all, they have lots of investigations into parents who want to know what their kids are being taught on their oh so full agenda. It makes you wonder how much this guy paid to Hunter’s drug dealers. Joe says, “Ethics? We don’t need no stinkin ethics.”

  11. OT

    “My hope is the Competition Committee looks at this in the next set of meetings, and you know, we take the dresses off.”

    – Troy Aikman

    “ESPN ‘Monday Night Football’ analyst Troy Aikman said Thursday that he shouldn’t have made the misogynistic comment that he did during the Kansas City Chiefs’ win over the Las Vegas Raiders earlier this week.”

    – Ryan Young, Yahoo News

    1. Is affirmative action misogynistic, misandristic, or just plain antithetical and unconstitutional?

      Does “we take the dresses off” mean, politically, America finally repeals the 19th Dumbmendment?

  12. Scum associating with scum.

    Few people give $2.8MM without expectation of consideration.

    The Biden family has incurred another obligation.

      1. Enigma, please sight your source. Otherwise we must consider that you have only made it up in your head. We anxiously await your further enlightenment.

        1. The money wasn’t given to Kushner, it was given to an investment firm.

          Svelaz elsewhere started on a tirade over this same issue. Here is my response which explains what occurred.

          I responded to Svelaz

          What happened? Saudi Arabia has a public investment fund of about $640 Billion. They smartly diversified their assets. If one bothers to look at the financial aspects of this investment, it seems to be a good deal all around. According to what Svelaz has copied, they profit off by taking a share of the profits, Affinity makes, and have an investment vehicle.

          They know Kushner ( I frequently know the people involved in my investments.) Kushner understands their needs and will not embarrass them. There was a concern that this was a new venture, so the Saudis being shrewd businessmen, only provided 500 million of the 2 Billion untilAffinity met specific criteria. Affinity Partners, which is in the US is scrutinized like other investment firms and has to meet the usual requirements.

          Now Svelaz, instead of being your usual silly self, tell us how much scrutiny existed for Hunter’s investments. To date, we see checks routed all over to hide the money trail and legal issues on every step Hunter has taken to get money. We see Hunter’s partners in jail, and there are videos, phone calls, and texts involving Joe Biden. What we do not see is interest by any government agency to investigate. Bobulinski provided material to the FBI that would lead to a widespread investigation and likely convictions. The FBI didn’t call Bobulinski back, showing they were hiding any criminality performed by the Bidens.

          Now, silly Svelaz, you can tell me what I said that is wrong and provide facts as I have. You won’t because you are a silly person ignorant of almost everything.

          1. Hunter has business deals with foreign entities.
            Kushner and many others have foreign business deals.

            What is the difference ?

            It is crystal clear that the “value” being traded in everything that Hunter touches is Hunter’s political connections – fundimentally Hunter is selling the government power of his father – that is the product, that is what people are investing in. Hunter’s leverage of the US government.

            What is the value that Kushner and others are providing ? Investments in real estate, or other real value. Both in and out of power contra the left there has been no effort by Trump or his family to leverage influence with the US government – frankly they have none. If anything they have the hostility of the US government.

            This is like the idiocy that purportedly Trump can only borrow from foreign banks subsidized by Russia.
            Really ? The people who have gotten money out of Russia are the Biden’s.

            Though atleast you can say one thing. Joe Biden is a subscriber to the “Take their money, and then screw them on the way out the door” school.

            Regardless, you can rant and rave. But the entire Trump family trades value for value – and does not trade on government influence.
            Trump had none as president. If the Trump family had needed influence in the State department to get a deal while Trump was president – the state department would have screwed him. Probably openly.

          1. The story is behind a paywall so very little of it is visible. What little is refutes the headline.
            This money was provided to a private Equity Fund that Kushner is affiliated with – it is an investment.
            It is not a gift. It is not even payment for services.

            The only way Kushner benefits from this money is if he makes alot of money investing it.
            Obviously if he does he is entitled.
            Nor does Kushner get to keep the money – the investor will expect it back – with interest.
            They will demand that rapidly if Kushner does not deliver profits.

            This has no resemblance to paying Hunter Biden to deliver government influence.

            1. You’re so helpless at finding information when you don’t want to know it. Here’s another source that mentions the $25 million Kushner receives annually for managing the fund.


              Not the first time Kushner got big money. Qatar gave him a $1.8 Billion bailout by leasing his loser 666 5th Ave property for 99 years, paying the whole 99 years up front. Who does that. Follow the timeline to see the pressure Trump/Kushner applied to Qatar to get them to go with the deal.


              1. “You’re so helpless at finding information when you don’t want to know it. Here’s another source that mentions the $25 million Kushner receives annually for managing the fund.”

                Enigma, you tell John he is hopeless when he is not. Then you provide an article and do not know what you are reading. Maybe you should be looking at your own lack of ability, not Johns’s.

                Here is the first paragraph you are discussing. I will explain it to you because you seldom understand anything dealing with Trump that involves business or numbers. We have gone through these things before and you are always lacking in your knowledge and understanding.

                “Former first son-in-law Jared Kushner received a $2 billion investment from Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund — with expected annual management fees of $25 million — according to a new report, drawing comparisons to first son Hunter Biden’s overseas business ventures.”

                The $25 million is based on 1.25% of the $2 Billion which is the brokerage fee. Another posted the NYTimes article which I believe said the Saudis would get 40% of that fee (that is trusting others). That is $10 Million leaving $15 to be divided up among the partners and perhaps the individual brokers.

                The $2 Billion wasn’t given to Kushner. It was an investment in an investment house. The Saudis put down $500 Million until they were satisfied.

                Kushner is not being paid to buy and sell securities. You should know that. I wrote a bit more in this thread and my name is signed so you can locate it easily.

                1. Further neither Kushner nor Trump are public servants.
                  Joe Biden was for Hunters Deals.

                  Nor do I care what Hunter does. The only thing that matters is Joes involvement

                  1. John, the important thing is that Enigma misused the data like he has done in the past and can’t seem to recognize that so he does the same repeatedly. Others on the blog do it as well. Unfortunately Democrat legislators have engaged in the same misuse of data as has the media.

                    I don’t know how many times I have corrected Enigma. It amounts to every engagement I have with him. If he can’t learn after so many failures how do we expect other people to respond outside of the blog.

                    We need better educated people and that doesn’t involve women, black or hispanic history. It involves teaching children critical reading skills and the basics that too many on this blog lack.

                    1. The ideology of the left does not include the concept of truth as non-fungible.

                      We have taken thousands of years to develop the systems of philosophy. law, justice, economics, …. that we have.
                      They are not perfect, but they are by far the best we have.
                      If you are incredibly brilliant and incredibly lucky, you might be able to add a tiny bit or correct a minor error.

                      It is blatant ignorance on the part of the left or presume that a handful of people started from scratch and in a few years came up with something that works 1/1000th as well much less better.

                      We should always strive for better. But the odds of reject everything quantum leaps is nil.

              2. Wow, Kushner – a Billion in his own right is paid $25m for managing a hedge fund.
                Wow! Scandalous!

                1. That money pays for a lot of things. It doesn’t all end up in Kushner’s pocket. Based on the deal, maybe none of it does.

                  1. Enigma, you are spewing mistruths again. Even the NYTimes article provides information demonstrating you are wrong. If you had basic knowledge of finance, you would be embarrassed to make such ludicrous statements.

                    The 2 Billion is not Kushner’s. It seems that your mind has returned to your fantasy world.

                  2. What I see is that Kushner was paid to do a very specific and legal job – invest $2B and make a profit investing it – that means putting that $2B where it will have a positive impact, Where it will produce more of what people want and need, and create jobs. and that if Kushner failed to do that – someone else would end up with that $2B to invest.
                    Why would someone pay Kushner to invest their money ? Because he has invested his own money such that he is now worth at least a billion, so he obviously knows how to do so.
                    I would further note that Kushner – a jew, was instrumental in negotiating the Abraham accords – the only successfull mideast peace deal since Carter, and the largest deal ever. It is self evident that he is a highly capable person. Frankly it is self evident that most of those who surround Donald Trump are highly capable. While most started with silver spoons they have made the double platinum on their own.
                    These are people who have made the world better for their existing – as established by the fact that they have become very wealthy by providing others with something they wanted and needed and where prepared to pay well for.

                    While Hunter Biden was given money from all kinds of people – for no discernible purpose. He was well paid as a Burisma board member – but he has no skill that qualifies for that task. The vast majority of us look at Hunter grasp rapidly that no one gave him money to build bridges, construct casino’s, manage hotels, or any other productive task within the private domain. The vast majority of us presume – quite accurately that Hunter Biden’s valuable skill is leveraging government to the benefit of his clients. Many other people do the same thing – Manafort and the Podesta’s as an example. But again their ability to profit as lobbyists still rests on their abilities. None of them have a sugar daddy.

                    The OBVIOUS concern regarding Hunter Biden is that he profits by leveraging the influence of his Senator/Vice President/President Father.
                    And more importantly that that action is corrupt – that Joe Biden is doing more than treating his son favorably, that he is personally profiting from his son selling the vested power of the offices that Joe Biden has held.

                    This is also why I have repeatedly said – the Issue with respect to Hunter is NOT Hunter Biden or his conduct – it is Joe Biden.

                    Ultimately the Biden’s made a great deal of money – and none of it was from trading value for value in the free market – or more accurately none of it was from trading a value that was not renting government power.

                    So that I am clear – drug dealers are less dangerous than those who trade public power for personal profit.

              3. Can’t verify your claims – the sources I am checking disagree. The records I find indicate the building was sold By Kushner in 2018
                But it really does not matter.

                It is not your or my business what Jared Kushner buys or sells, nor to whom.

                From what I can tell – if you are correct. Kushner bought a property for 1.8B, sold out portions of it for a couple of hundred Million and then leased what was left for 1.8B for 99 years.

                Sounds like a good deal to me.

                1. Different topic John:

                  “Remembering 2012 in Arizona When Libertarians Elected Kyrsten Sinema”

                  “So, it is not silly to say Libertarians often elect socialist-oriented candidates, people opposed in almost every way to the principles of limited government and personal liberty.”

                  “Democrat Kyrsten Sinema 121,881 or 48.66%

                  Republican Vernon Parker 111,630 or 44.46%

                  Libertarian Powell Gammill 16,620 or 6.63%”

                  What if the vote had been 51% for Republican Vernon Parker?


                  1. I reject your premise.
                    You do not seem to grasp that I do not agree.
                    Libertarians did not elect sienama, democrats did,
                    and republicans failed to do what was necessary to win libertarian votes.
                    But if you feeel strongly enough about this – then push my snap runnoff

                    You must win by 51% or there is a runnoff.
                    That means there is a 2% difference between the winner and any other candidate.
                    Beyond everything else that is a major anti-fraud issue. It is really really hard to commit fraud that large without getting caught.

                    That is the gist,

                    But I will try an sort of end to end recommendation.

                    No voter registration.
                    No primaries.
                    Reasonable requirements to get on the ballot for the general.
                    Voting in person only with valid ID that establishes:
                    That you are who you claim to be,
                    That you are resident in the precinct.
                    That you are eligible to vote.
                    If you can not meet those requirements, sign an affadavit, have your photo taken, and vote, I will not even make it provisional.
                    But I will prosecute you later for Fraud.
                    Paper ballots filled out by hand.
                    Counted by scanning at your precinct.
                    No more than 15,000 voters per precinct.
                    Precinct counts made public within 3hrs of polls closing.
                    All the rules absolute – if you do not count votes by 3hrs after closing, you report what you got and your done.
                    Voter outrage will hopefully fix the problem next election.

                    So by the next morning we know the results.
                    If one candidate gets 51% of the vote – we are done.
                    If not, Drop the bottom half of candidates – rounded up
                    and vote again the following week.
                    Rinse repeat until you are down to two candidates.
                    If no one has 51% with only two candidates either:
                    As you will have had 2 rounds – if a candidate won both rounds they are elected
                    Flip a coin,
                    or have the legislature decide.

                    This is not meant to cover every detail.

                    No courts AT ALL.
                    less susceptible to error and fraud.
                    Simple process that is the same everywhere.
                    There are no convention centers with 200 people counting 2M ballots.
                    Bottom up design.
                    myriads of forms of fraud, and cheating are harder, more likely to cancel out, and more likely to get caught.
                    Rounds should be quick – little time to campaign, no time to reset a fraud operation,
                    more opportunity to get caught if you engage in fraud with each round.

                    You wasted vote argument disappears completely.
                    I can vote as I please.
                    If my candidate is gone by the 2nd round,
                    I can vote for another or not vote as I please.
                    Things like your sienama claim are impossible – to win you must get 51% of the vote.

                    1. I spent yesterday as an election canvasser checking mail-in ballots that have already been filled out (working in Dem-Rep pairs, with Board of Elections members and county workers there to supervise if anything has to be changed — such as creating a duplicate copy of the ballot when someone mistakenly filled the ovals in with a pencil instead of a pen), and I can tell you: it’s a PITA having to check every individual ballot. People can be sloppy in filling in the ovals, and they make mistakes that they sometimes try to correct (e.g., crossing out an oval that they’d filled in) and other times don’t notice (e.g., writing the name of a write-in candidate but neglecting to fill in the oval next to “write-in”).

                      My county has a good process for in-person voting: people vote either by hand or with a ballot marking device that prints out their choices on a ballot, and both groups first feed their ballot into a ballot counter that tells them how the ballot will be counted (e.g., if they accidentally overvoted, or if they didn’t darken an oval well enough for the vote to be counted, it will let them know), and they can then either submit the ballot to be counted or they can “spoil” the ballot if it’s not going to accurately capture how they intended to vote and can fill out a new one. There is a paper trail for every person who votes, but the counting occurs electronically.

                      As for “vote again the following week,” it’s much better to have ranked choice voting where people vote once and the system essentially runs an instant run-off until someone gets at least 50% + 1 votes (which is a more accurate description than 51%, as it only has to be greater than 50%).

                    2. In most states the activities you described doing are illegal – and should be in all states.

                      I am not accusing you.
                      Just presenting the problems of mailin ballots.

                      No one but the voter should be making changes or duplicating ballots.
                      Except incredibly rare instances in which a ballot is litterally damaged in processing and even that needs to be incredibly carefully monitored.

                      When you vote in person and the Voter screws up – THEY get to spoil their own ballot and fill out a correct one.

                      That is the only legitimate means to deal with error on a ballot.

                      The moment you interoduce mailin ballots – that problem becomes enormous.

                      I am sorry – if you submit a mailin ballot and there are problems that require correction – if the voter can not correct them – then the ballot must be rejected. That is the only legitimate action that can be taken.

                      Again I am not commenting on your personal activities. I do not know the laws in your state.
                      But I am addressing what the laws should be – and in most places are.

                      Whenever you allow people other than the voter to alter a ballot – or the ballot envelope information you introduce the opportunity for fraud.

                      I would note that goes beyond fraud by election workers.

                      Ballot envelopes containing incorrect or incomplete information – could be innocent error by the voter.
                      Or they could be the evidence that the ballot itself is fraudulent and was submitted by a third party that does not have all the information.
                      By allowing election workers to “cure” ballot deficiencies that increases the opportunity for fraud.

                      And this is just one of the many many many problems of mailin ballots

                      There is nothing we can do to make voter Fraud impossible. But it is important to make it very difficult.
                      The incentives for Fraud are enormous. The number of jobs, and the amount of money and where it goes that hinge on each election is enormous. The amount spent on elections demonstrates the stakes.
                      Fraud is a cheap and efficient way to get votes.

                      The most dangerous frauds are those that can be done large scale with few people.

                      One of the reasons for inperson voting and secret balloting, is that handling of ballots never takes place outside the control of election officials.
                      In 2020 in every single swing state (city) the number of ballots and the number of people who voted do not reconcile – they are not even close.
                      That may be sloppiness and error. It also may be an indicator of Fraud. In inperson secret ballot elections you KNOW that differences between the number of ballots and the number of voters is the consequence of error or fraud by election officials – you know where to look,
                      Further election officials KNOW that if there are discrepancies THEY will be scrutinized.
                      One of the most damning findings from the AZ audit was that ballot handling was so bad that 1/2 of all ballots had some error.
                      Whether that was an error by the voter, or an election official handling error. Regardless, the commonality of errors meant that nearly all anti-fraud measures were useless. As a single example – precinvts ran out of ballots, so they photocopied blanks and handed them out.
                      As a result there is no means to tell if a ballot that is not officially printed is a fraud or legitimate.
                      If processes are rigorously followed – ballots can be treated like currency and the same antifraud measures used on currency can be used to identify fraudulent ballots. If they are not followed – that check disappears.

                      The AZ audit did not find clear and convincing evidence of Fraud – aside from the almost 50K duplicate ballots.
                      But it did find that nearly every anti-fraud measure had been compromised such that there was no way to tell if there was fraud or how large it was.

                      Election fraud is actually uncommon. That is true because in most races the scale of fraud necessary to alter the outcome is too large to hide.
                      All the antifraud measures, that were circumvented in 2020, and continue to be in my state, are there not to prevent fraud, but to make large scale fraud much harder and more likely to get caught.

                      The 2000 election was decided in FL by a couple of hundred votes. There is no election system sufficient to prevent a couple of hundred fraudulent votes out of millions. The GA cobb county random signature audit of only 5000 ballots found 30 instances of highly likely fraud.
                      30 sounds small – until you understand that was in only 5000 ballots.

                      One of our big problems is that increasingly elections are decided by very narrow margins. The tighter the election – the greater the incentive to fraud. That is a major part of why I suggest that all elections must be won by 51% of the vote. Only the most egregious claims regarding 2020 exceed 1% of the vote. The TTV “2000 Mules” ballot harvesting claim – which is highly credible. is only about 0.5% of ballots in 6 states.

                      If you require a win by 51%, that makes successful fraud nearly impossible – atleast if there is reasonable adherance to the normal anti-fraud measures

                    3. Ranked choice voting has many many problems. It fundimentally only works reasonably in cases where you have two leading candidates and every other candidate has tiny percents of the vote. The moment you have 3 or more candidates with significant voters ranked choice voting produces anomalous results. While it did not fail in NYC – it came close – specifically because there were 3 leading candidates.

                      RCV also has problems if a voter only makes a first choice. If their candidate is dropped, they are gone from the election.

                      Snap runnoffs have three important features.

                      First all voters get to reconsider their vote knowing the initial outcome.
                      Next less serious voters tend to drop out – exactly the voters we want to drop out.
                      Finally mounting successive fraud operations is exponentially more difficult.

                      RCV has none of those features.

                      My 51% requirement is NOT specifically tied to Runnoff’s
                      Even if you use an RCV system you should ALWAYS require 51% to win.
                      If you can not get atleast a 2% difference between the winner and other candidates – then DO NOT USE THE VOTE.
                      Flip a coin, kick it to the legislature. Decide the outcome by some measure completely independant of any possibility of voter fraud.
                      This is really important.

                      50%+1 is almost the maximum possible incentive for election fraud in a close race.
                      It is also the arrangement most guaranteed to have holy wars after the fact and to obliterate voter confidence in the result.

                      The standard margin of error in counting votes is about 3%. In FL in 2000 we saw multiple recounts of single counties or less with results varying by several hundred votes from one count to the next.

                      Any decision by voters that is not atleast 2% between candidates is no decision at all.
                      Even if the election were conducted perfectly and there was no fraud – a margin of less than 2pts between the winner and loser is not sufficient to confer legitimacy. You forget that the purpose of elections is to justify the use of force by government against the people for the purpose of implimenting policies. We can not use force against people justified solely by the fact that one person on one day in November voted a specific way.

                      If you can not win a large enough majority – then the next best option is to bar the new government from implementing any new policies.
                      I would note that a majority vote is not the ONLY requirement to use force against people. but it is an absolute requirement.

                      50%+1 is a very very dangerous standard. it alone undermines confidence and trust in government.
                      The purpose of elections is for candidates to demonstrate they have earned that trust.

                      Better to have an impotent caretaker government than one without a mandate.

                      50%+1 also maximizes the incentive to engage in the gerrymandering that the left rants about – in reality the frequency of gerrymandering is the same for each party. On net it probably only moves the house 4 seats or less each cycle.
                      It is also dangerous because it encourages legislators to create districts with the smallest margin of victory.

                      The larger you require in law the margin of victory to be the larger the disincentive to gerrymandering.

                      If you actually want to dramatically reduce gerrymandering – make the required margin of victory even higher.

                    4. “You do not seem to grasp that I do not agree.”

                      Why do you think that? There is no question you disagree. Of course, libertarians did not elect Sinema. They voted for the libertarian candidate.

                      One can simplify what happens in a split vote by using the Sinema-Vernon race returns for a fictitious Trump-Biden race.
                      Sinema 48.6 Biden
                      Vernon. 44.4 Trump
                      remaining votes 6.6

                      Biden wins. His ideas are almost the complete opposite of libertarian beliefs. Many of Jo Jorgensen’s ideas are similar to Trump’s. Had they voted for Trump, a candidate that could win, Trump would have won. Jorgensen could never win.

                      They were looking for perfect, and Trump was only good. They got Biden. That was a bad choice.

                      Perfection is the enemy of good. Where is the logic?

                      You have taken the choice on the table to another that doesn’t exist. You are suggesting a snap runoff. Maybe that is a good idea.
                      Let us run the numbers.

                      But, first look at the results of the voters if they could watch the vote and change who they vote for until they are finished. I think it is safe to assume most would prefer Trump.

                      Biden’s votes remain the same, Trump’s increase up to 6.6, leaving him with up to 51 and Biden 48.6

                      You provide an alternate fix, the non-existent snap runoff. Since we have to rely on what exists, we can’t consider the snap runoff even though it leads to the same conclusion of a Trump win.

                      I have no problem that you are settled on splitting the vote which leads to a Biden victory that none of the voters intended.

                      That leaves us mulling the adage that perfection is the enemy of good.

                      In essence, the vote is for or against the adage, not the names seen on the ballot.

                    5. I have addressed this is several other posts.
                      You are trying to blame me and libertarians for outcomes that YOU do not like that the system is designed to produce.
                      I would note that as a rule the impact of greens and similar parties on democrats is much worse than libertarians on republicans.
                      When forced libertarians split 60:40 republican. Do you really think 40% of greens go to republicans ?

                      Regardless, the “problem” you ranting about is not with libertarians, it is with the election design.

                      I do not think any candidate Ever should be elected to office without 51% of the vote.
                      That does happen the vast majority of the time, and it is the fact that does happen that assures us that in the overwhelming majority of elections fraud is not relevant. The TTV 2000 Mules exposed ballot harvesting maxes at about 1% of the vote in the effected states.
                      And that was possibly the largest fraud operation ever.

                      Getting 2% is exponentially harder. While I do not think we just ignore election integrity if a candidate can get 51% of the vote – the value of winning an election is just too high. If you do not make it very hard to pull off – you will get fraud.
                      Though I would note that not only are larger operations harder to pull off, they are also easier to catch. Injecting a million votes into an election without someone somewhere finding damning evidence is really really hard – and the bigger the number needed the exponentially harder.

                      The next problem is that several points of fraud even if it does not leave direct evidence will leave indirect evidence – just too many places where most people will go – that does not make sense.

                      This is one of the big factors in 2020. Trump had large rallies. Biden could not get 100 people anywhere. There were myriads of signs all over that the polls were wrong that there was no large voter desire for Biden. While enthusiasm of Trump supporters was over the top.
                      I am using 2020 as an example. The point is the larger the fraud the more likely people will look at the results and go – that does not make sense.

                      This is also why I have serious concerns about polling. We have had 3 elections in a row where most of the polls have been off – beyond the margin of error. All overstating democrats support. 2020 in particular. Many polls were off 10pts. Whatever the explanation – polsters must do better – the value of their product diminishes with falling accuracy.

                      I suspect – but can not prove bias and malfeasance. First the left likes to talk about voter supression – THAT is voter supression.
                      Significant error in polling depresses the vote of the candidate that is behind. It is perfectly OK for political parties to try to disuade their oponents candidates from voting. It is NOT ok for the press or pollsters to do so.

                      The 2nd possible reason is to provide cover for larger fraud. That is really dark. But so many of the players in all of this have engaged in conduct that is egregious – even criminal, further leftism litterally destroys morality. The core of leftist ideology is that if I beleive something to be true, nothing is prohbited to accomplish it. People who would attempt to destory some of the most significant art in all history or dump milk all over the floor in grocery stores, People who would fraudulently claim to have been assaulted by people in MAGA hats – these are not people who can be trusted to act legally and morally. When the ends justifies the means – the law no longer matters.

                      Anyway back to the point – require a 51% win and your problem goes away.
                      If neither candidate gets 51% – find another solution to elect people.
                      My proposal is snap runnoffs. But frankly, you can go straight to flipping a coin.
                      That BTW actually has major pluses. We can test the coin ahead. The oportunity for fraud is low, and the entire electorate knows the winner is elected by chance – there is no mandate. If a party can not win an election commandingly it should be severely limited constitutionally in what it can do. We do not have such provisions in the constitution – but we do have the fact that everyone knows if you won on a coin toss, you essentially start out as a lame duck and you start out trying to win the support of the people who did not vote for you.

                      Coin toss eliminates court battles. Further it eliminate dubious sweeps. There are 35 house races that are tossups, and 7 senate races – if the election were held today. If voters are truly close to evenly split in those races then giving one party 4 senate seats and the other 3, one party 17 house seats and the other 18 is no big deal. While coin tosses are not guaranteed to do that that is by far the highest odds,
                      and frankly it pretty accurately reflects the “will of the people”

                      I would further note that the 51% to win rule dramatically diminishes the value of gerrymandering.

                      Personally I would still do snap runnoffs – if someone can not win 51% in TWO tries, it is absolutely clear the electorate is evenly split.
                      Again go to a coin toss or give the legislature the decision – DO NOT kick this into the courts.
                      Or another alternative. Throw out all candidates and start over. That can not be done for President. But it can be done for every other office.
                      If your favorite choice as senator can not win after 2 tries, start over from scratch and have a new election in 6 months.
                      In the coleman franken mess in 2008, it took more than 9 months to seat Franken – and the process delegitimtized the courts and election officials.

                      Those are my ideas. I do not pretend they are the only answer.
                      But the most important suggestion is 51% to win, and DO NOT kick this to the courts. Do something else. Courts are not an effective anti-fraud measure. Random chance is. Almost anything else is.
                      And recognizing that the person ultimately placed in office DID NOT WIN, is actually a PLUS. It disempowers them.

                      I would note that if we decided the states where Biden did not get 51% of the vote by coin toss – my guess is Trump would have about a 40% chance of getting re-elected.

                      And I would note that is a major anti-fraud measure. Who is going to invest massive amounts of effort to win an election by fraud, fall barely short and then risk losing on a coin toss ?

                      Though if I were to chose – I would send elections short of 51% to the state legislature – Let the people the state voted into office decide the close elections.
                      But I suspect that is more politically unpaletable.

                    6. “You are trying to blame me and libertarians for outcomes”

                      Absolutely not. I have no adherence to one party. I am dealing with logic and the idea that perfection is the enemy of good. Essentially, that is what should control the decision. Don’t let guilt decide for you.

                      You seem to think party affiliation controls my thinking. That is not true. I am pragmatic and interested in how I can obtain good policy. I am not looking for perfection, as I recognize compromise is the only way forward.

                      I have no objection to your 51% vote, but that is not what we have presently. However, if we did have that vote, we wouldn’t have Biden because libertarians and others would accept the good rather than the perfect. (Make no mistake. I know what you are talking about.)

                      You delved into a flip of a coin which is interesting. Randomness is not bad. I think the Athenian Democracy used a bit of randomness. Bill Buckley would have chosen the first names in the telephone book.

                      I think you are fighting against the fact that our government is failing because the checks and balances are not in place. The government has gotten too big, so we see self-indulgent people running for office, knowing that is where the money is.

                      For the most part, the federal government should have a lot less effect on our lives. We shouldn’t be that interested. The three branches should be doing their jobs, but they aren’t. That is why the courts are involved, and everyone focuses on power.

                    7. ““You are trying to blame me and libertarians for outcomes”
                      Absolutely not. ”
                      Litterally false.
                      Your argument is littlerally that candidates you like would win if no one voted for libertarians.
                      That is both false and an argument resting entirely on oucomes.

                      “I have no adherence to one party.”

                      “I am dealing with logic”
                      You are, but the criteria you are measuring results by is a value laden outcome.
                      You can defend the holocaust in exactly the same way – as long as you place no value on jewish lives.

                      “the idea that perfection is the enemy of good.”
                      That is a value – it is not a principle
                      Further as you love to attack me for – it is an “over generalization”

                      “Essentially, that is what should control the decision.”
                      No. It is a value, not a principle, and not a rule of logic.

                      ” Don’t let guilt decide for you.”
                      Guilt has nothing to do with it.

                      “You seem to think party affiliation controls my thinking.”
                      No. But I do think your desired outcome does – because you say it does.

                      “I am pragmatic and interested in how I can obtain good policy.”
                      You are – and that is a VALUE, not a principle.

                      “I am not looking for perfection”
                      Neither are libertarians.

                      “as I recognize compromise is the only way forward.”
                      Now shifting to a NEW value – that is also not a principle, but you are asserting as a principle.
                      And again over generalizing.

                      Actually compromise is not even a value – for most. It is a tool, one of many.
                      It SOMETIMES is a useful tool, But like all tools it is not good for everything.
                      Hammers are not a good way to cut wood.

                      “I have no objection to your 51% vote”
                      That is a pragmatic solution to YOUR problem, one that meets your values and does not require anyone to compromise principles.

                      “but that is not what we have presently.”
                      Nor do we have what you want.

                      Your demanding that I change how I vote.
                      I am saying NO! But that you CAN change the voting process and solve the problem that your demand that I change how I vote was intended to correct.

                      I have gone into a fair amount of detail on my proposed voting scheme.
                      I think it is an excellent outline of a means to radically improve election trust and integrity.

                      But I am not claiming it is the only way, or the best way.
                      It is just A solution that addresses lots of problems with elections in a way that is efficient – i.e. requires the least amount of force – government, and is designed to reduce opportunities for conflict, and increase trust.

                      If you value convenience, and you do not care about fraud – there is nothing wrong with entirely mailin voting.
                      Even if you do care about fraud there are ways to have mailin voting that dramatically reduce fraud – though not nearly to the extent that in person secret ballot elections do.

                      The BIG question is, is trust in government a value or a principle (or more accurately, a requirement derived from principle)

                      The social contract requires trust. Elections are the primary means that we establish trust in government.
                      Without that Trust – government is neither legitimate nor efficient. The less trust there is in government the more force government must use.
                      Establishing trust in government is not a principle, but it is a requirement for working self government.

                      I am arguing that trust is more than a value, it is a requirement. I strongly suspect you agree.
                      Further the chaos we have now is the consequence of a poorly trusted government.

                      Principles and requirements can be compromised, but doing so is perilous.

                      Your arguments are glossing over the distinctions between values and principles and the necessities of principles.

                      Your disagreemnt with me is over values.

                      Those on the left are not really arguing differently than you – they are arguing different values.

                      “However, if we did have that vote, we wouldn’t have Biden because libertarians and others would accept the good rather than the perfect. (Make no mistake. I know what you are talking about.)”
                      You are likely correct, but I do not care. My goal is not to prevent Biden from getting elected.
                      It is to get Government that is trusted. It is my beleif – and likely true that the more broad the support we require to form legitimate government the more “conservative” – in the sense of unlikely to disrupt the status quo, it will be.

                      One of the problems those on the left do not understand is that nearly everyone wants change – but we do not each want the same change.
                      the majority of us will accept whatever we currently have over any specific new proposal. We want our own change – not that of our neighbor.

                      “You delved into a flip of a coin which is interesting. Randomness is not bad. I think the Athenian Democracy used a bit of randomness. Bill Buckley would have chosen the first names in the telephone book.”

                      Anything choice – not just elections, where the outcome is inside the margin of error, any outcome is random already.

                      The left rants that Biden indisputably won the 2020 election. The only indisputable fact about 2020 is Biden won the popular vote.

                      If the left is correct – the electoral college was decided well inside the margin of error. That is not a win.
                      If the right is correct and there were 800,000 fraudulent ballots – that is close to the worst case. TTV is actually claiming 350K accross 6 states.
                      If you eliminated ever “Fruadulent” Ballot – Trumps “win” would still be well inside the margin of error.

                      In both cases the results are inside the margin of error and essentially random.

                      “I think you are fighting against the fact that our government is failing because the checks and balances are not in place.”
                      Yes, and no. You are correct that our govenrment is failing because checks and balances have been removed.
                      But that is a different issue.
                      The first problem – and possibly the cause of the check and balance issue is the lack of trust.

                      To be clear I am not a big fan of Trust in govenrment. But independent of my personal distrust, the FACT is that the less trust govenrment has the less legitimate power it has. Ultimately “checks and balances” are just means to empower those that did not give government its trust power to thwart actions that requires high trust.

                      In parlimentary systems a vote of no confidence results in the dissolution of government. That is a bit too much for me.
                      But the concept is important – though it should not be binary.
                      The ability fof government to act, should be determined by the degree of trust that government has earned.

                      “The government has gotten too big, so we see self-indulgent people running for office, knowing that is where the money is.
                      For the most part, the federal government should have a lot less effect on our lives. We shouldn’t be that interested. The three branches should be doing their jobs, but they aren’t. That is why the courts are involved, and everyone focuses on power.”
                      All true but not what I was debating.

                    8. You might have a guilty mind and believe I am trying to blame you and libertarians for outcomes. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I am pointing out a logical and mathematical fact while calling for reflection.

                      “Your argument is littlerally that candidates you like would win if no one voted for libertarians.”

                      You are reading the tea leaves poorly in this case.

                      “You can defend the holocaust in exactly the same way – as long as you place no value on jewish lives.”

                      That is a crazy statement, and I don’t think any changes in the wording would make it any better.

                      “the idea that perfection is the enemy of good.”
                      That is a value – it is not a principle”

                      It is neither. It is a statement that is true in many cases.

                      “Further as you love to attack me for – it is an “over generalization”

                      I do not love attacking you at all. I agree with you most of the time, but over-generalizations sometimes cause our agreement to suffer.

                      >>”Essentially, that is what should control the decision.”
                      >No. It is a value, not a principle, and not a rule of logic.”

                      No. The question is, should I search for unattainable perfection, or should I accept the good and work in perfection’s general direction?

                      >>”Essentially, that is what should control the decision.”
                      >No. It is a value, not a principle, and not a rule of logic.”

                      We differ. In this case, I believe perfection is the enemy of good.

                      “But I do think your desired outcome does – ”

                      Yes, my desired outcome affects how I think about things.

                      “You are – and that is a VALUE, not a principle.”

                      My comment: ” I am not looking for perfection, as I recognize compromise is the only way forward.” refers to resolving conflicts in a society where ideas are far apart, but not so far that one would want to go to war.

                      “Your demanding that I change how I vote.”

                      Nowhere do I demand anything. I would prefer you to reflect because we are dealing with a struggle to maintain the American dream that is in tremendous danger.

                      I don’t have objections to changing the voting process, but that will not be for the next election though you can try. In this instance, I will have to choose what we have over something that doesn’t yet exist.

                      “I have gone into a fair amount of detail on my proposed voting scheme.
                      I think it is an excellent outline of a means to radically improve election trust and integrity.”

                      I think it is interesting, and could be preferable, but it isn’t the law right now.

                      “Your arguments are glossing over the distinctions between values and principles and the necessities of principles.”

                      I think you are making too much of a fuss over them. I am telling you what I believe and how I act. I am not demanding anything from another person.

                      “Your disagreemnt with me is over values.”

                      I’m not going to engage in where this type of discussion leads us. Though you might deny it, it mimics the type of discussion one has with a Randian where they create their desired definition of a word. Such discussions are counterproductive. However, if you wish to have such a discussion, we need agreement on definitions.

                      “My goal is not to prevent Biden from getting elected.
                      It is to get Government that is trusted.”

                      If you want the government to be trusted, a win for another Biden term would not be in your interests.

                      “The first problem – and possibly the cause of the check and balance issue is the lack of trust.”

                      I disagree. The first problem is too much money in Washington incentivizing self-serving politicians and people to make DC their destination.

                      Willie Sutton was asked why he robbed banks, answered: “Because that’s where the money is.”

                      In essence, the size and wealth of the government are bringing the bank robbers to Washington.

              1. That is a hit piece seen as soon as one reads the headline that doesn’t discuss any of the details.

                Here are some of the facts involved in the deal.

                “Former first son-in-law Jared Kushner received a $2 billion investment from Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund — with expected annual management fees of $25 million — according to a new report, drawing comparisons to first son Hunter Biden’s overseas business ventures.” news article

                The $25 million is based on 1.25% of the $2 Billion which is the brokerage fee. Another posted the NYTimes article which I believe said the Saudis would get 40% of that fee (that is trusting others). That is $10 Million leaving $15 to be divided up among the partners and perhaps the individual brokers.
                The $2 Billion wasn’t given to Kushner. It was an investment in an investment house. The Saudis put down $500 Million until they were satisfied.
                Kushner is not being paid to buy and sell securities. Other people are hired to do that job.

                IMO it is a good deal for all involved including the US and the American people. The US was not sold down the drain like it was from the Biden Crime Syndicate. Probably almost all on this blog have money invested in this fashion. The 1.25% is what pays the bills of the investment company.

              2. Again your article is spin and mostly false inuendo regarding legal activities.

                Central to the claim is that Kushner botched the 666 park avenue deal.
                Did Kushner overpay ? I suspect that is correct. I overpayed for the first property I bought.
                I still did very well on it.
                Kushner held 666 Park Ave for 10 years. During that time he paid the mortgage, sold off rights to the retail portion for more than 100M.
                Assuming the mortgage was 15yrs and that he put 20% down, that means that in 2018 when he sold the building his equity was more than $1B
                That would mean that he substantially more than doubled his original investment.
                And if you can not figure it out – even if he sold 666 Park Ave at a loss (something that almost never happens) – he still would have made money.

                Neither you nor the authors of your linked peice have a clue – I was going to say about commercial real estate or investing – but the truth is they do not understand life or being an actual adult – a problem that you constantly demonstrate.

                With respect to the Saudi investment money – it is 2022. Donald Trump does not hold public office. Jared Kushner is not a public servant.
                I do not give a schiff if MBS wants to give him $2B out of the kindness of his heart. But that is obviously not what happened.

                As is typical of those on the left – you assume that whenever significant money changes hands – especially when people you do not like are involved – that it is your business and that it is corrupt.

                The only legitimate role of govenrment in free exchange is prohibiting the use of force or fraud and holding the parties of an agreement to whatever terms they freely agreed to. That is ALL.

                You and I have a legitimate interest in the private activities of others ONLY
                When force or fraud are involved
                When government power is part of the transaction.

                Lobbying our government is legal. But it is our legitimate interest to scrutinize such transactions.
                One of the reasons to severely limit government is to reduce the frequency with which government acts in the free market because all government action in the free market is an opportunity to rent government power – and that is CORRUPT.

                You claim that someone paid off a tax bill of Kavanaugh’s – if that is correct – there is a significant public interest in assuring that there is no quid pro quo. That the payment is really a gift with no strings attached – which is unlikely. Or that if there are strings – those are that it is a loan not a gift and that Kavanaugh is paying it off. Regardless, I will be happy to impeach Kavanaugh if he participates in a SCOTUS decision where those who paid off his tax bill have a clear financial interest in the outcome.

                All of this assumes that Kavanaugh actually had a tax bill that someone else paid off.

                Someone did pay off Hunter’s tax bill – that is not a crime, but it absolutely demands public scrutiny – specifically because Hunter is inarguably engaged in government lobbying.

                Whatever Kushner is dong with the Saudi’s is not your and my business. There is no potential renting of the power of the US government involved. It is irrelevant whether it is a good deal, a sweetheart deal or a bad deal. That is between the parties – not us.
                Absent a credible claim of government rent seeking – I do not care and you do not even have a right to know.

                1. It isn’t my article.

                  Enigma is the one who suggested you read it, you complained that it was behind a paywall, and I looked up a non-paywalled copy for you. You’re welcome.

                  1. It is a worthless article without any pertinent details written for the ignorant. That ignorance is demonstrated when is is used it to prove a point where there are people that understand these things. Enigma is ignorant with regard to simple finance. You posted it without a disclaimer, so you can take a bow and stand with Enigma.

              3. You do not seem to be able to have the adult cognative ability to accurately grasp what is your business and what is not.

                Kushner’s private dealings – good or bad are not your business.

                Hunter’s actually private dealings are none of mine.
                Hunter’s dealing’s become a matter of public interest and importance when there is an opportunity for government rent seeking.
                Where there is the possibility that the power of the government vested in a person are being bought and sold.

                That possibility alone is what is required for us to have a legitimate interest.

                Our interest in Hunter is automatically justified because all of his actions are lobbying government.
                That is not inherently illegal.

                The proof necescary of corruption to successfully prosecute as a crime is quite high – and should be.
                But the standard of proof necescary for voters to make choices, or to require those involved to leave public office is NOT very high.

                We should not have to need to convict a public official of criminal conduct beyond a reasonable doubt to remove them from office.

                This is also why supressing the hunter Biden laptop story is itself lawless.
                Voters need not determine that Biden is a crook beyond a reasonable doubt to refuse to vote for him.
                They are entitled to know what evidence there is.

                The Access Hollywood tapes Damaged Trump with voters.
                I am not sure I would have voted for Trump but for them.
                But they ended any possibility I was going to vote for him in 2016.

                And that is perfectly fine.
                Voters are entitled to knowledge of the character of those who seek public office.
                And they are free to vote based on their own standards not those of a criminal court.

                I have no doubt that Hunter Biden is guilty of crimes.
                But I do not think he should be charged based on what we have so far.

                But Joe Biden would not have been elected had the press done its job.
                Oddly Hunter Biden should not have to pay – because the press burried the indications that Joe Biden was corrupt.

                At the same time, much deeper investigation of Hunter’s activities – not to send Hunter to Jail, but to determine whether Joe Biden should remain president is absolutely warranted.

                The LEft scrutinized the crap out of Trump’s entire life when he was president.
                That scrutiny was justified – even if the idiots writing the articles had no understanding of reality.
                Again we are entitled to know th character of our public servants.

                Those dealings of Trump or his family that actually involved the use of public power with a potential for personal gain require deep scrutiny – not just public scrutiny but the scrutiny of law enforcement. Contra the Left – Trump has very little of such dealings.
                While The Biden family is entirely about exactly those dealings.

      2. Enigma – smears and logical fallacies don’t belong on an intellectual blog.

          1. Enigma, the truth certainly isn’t in the headline, “How Did Jared Kushner Get $2 Billion From the Saudis?
            Hint: It’s not because of his track record as an investor.”

            The Saudis did not give Kushner $2 Billion. Buying and selling securities isn’t Kushner’s job. Once one understands the meaning of the words, one can read the article, but one already knows it is a hit piece.

            The deal is legitimate and was scrutinized by many different authorities. Even Congress did an investigation. Did you see such an investigation of Hunter Biden or President Biden, Chairman of a criminal enterprise?

            I believe the Saudis got a good deal, as did Kushner and all those who invested alongside him. I think it is even good for our nation.

          2. The portion of the article that can be read says it is an investment in a hedge fund.
            Do you have any evidence it is anything else ?

            1. The details of this deal are easily found by anyone wanting to know, including Kushner getting paid $25 million annually to manage the fund. How does that compare to Turley saying someone might have paid off Hunter Biden’s tax bill of $2.8 million? These aren’t even clos to being the same things.

              1. “The details of this deal are easily found by anyone wanting to know, including Kushner getting paid $25 million annually to manage the fund.”

                I know you haven’t had time to read my earlier reply, but did you ever think of making sure of your facts and understanding what the written word was saying?

              2. That is correct – these do not compare.
                Kushner is getting paid to manage 2B in asssets.
                If he does nto do the job well – the investor will take the money elsewhere.

                Hunter received money for being Hunter Biden.
                Is there actual evidence of Hunter ever doing any actual work – besides selling access to his father ?
                Dealing drugs does not count.

                1. It is thus far alleged that someone paid off Hunter Biden’s taxes which makes him the equivalent of Brett Kavanaugh. You didn’t even touch the pressure on Qatar to bail out Kushner’s 666 Park Ave property which was breaking him.

                  Don’t get me wrong, Hunter Biden may need to go to jail. But if you can only see the wrongdoing in your political foes and not those you support. We’ll end up with more Trump’s (take your pick, they’re all grifters).

                  1. If you don’t understand the $2 Billion Saudi investment, you certainly cannot understand the Qatar deal. I don’t know how you were able to do your job (Description provided by you.) unless you have intentionally decided to misstate the truth for ideological reasons.

                  2. “It is thus far alleged that someone paid off Hunter Biden’s taxes”
                    That is not alleged, it is proven. For the most part I do not care – except my concern for what was secured in return.

                    “which makes him the equivalent of Brett Kavanaugh.”
                    If you say so – though I do not recall anyone paying off Kavanaugh’s taxes – certainly not millions.
                    Regardless, If true I would be similarly concerned about what was secured in return.

                    “You didn’t even touch the pressure on Qatar to bail out Kushner’s 666 Park Ave property which was breaking him.”
                    Because your source made lots of claims – fairly detailed ones – many of which were at odds with known facts. making the whole article suspect.
                    Also because a large part of those claims is innuendo, not fact. Kushner spent a large part of the Trump administration negotiating mid-east peace. Without any doubt he was all over the mideast and negotiating with representives throughout the mideast.

                    The claim that 666 Park ave was breaking him is complete nonsense. I do not know whether it was a good deal for him or a less good one.
                    What I do know is that he was not defaulting on his loans. You left wing nuts constantly try to paint the normal course of business as either malignant or impending doom.

                    One of my businesses is “due Dilligence” – the evaluation of commercial properties, that are being bought. sold, or refinanced.
                    My company evaluates a specific aspect of the properties themselves typically for lenders to assure that the deal they finance does not leave them in trouble. I am one part of a whole independent army that evaluates these properties prior to sale, purchase or refinance. Further we are independent – independent of the buyers, sellors, and banks. In many instance I do not know who the buyer, sellor and sometimes even the bank that is my client is.
                    I have assessed properties on Park Avenue before. I have assessed probably 60 properties in Manhattan similar to 666 park Ave.
                    I assess a couple of hundred properties a year.

                    No one MUST buy, sell, or refinance. They do so because it is of benefit to them.
                    Kushner bought 666 park ave in 2008. Comercial properties are refinanced, or sold typically every 4-7 years. Kushner sold 666 Park Ave after 10 years. You claim Kushner was bailed out – if Kushner held 666 Park Ave for 10 years – It was more than half paid off – That means Kushner had a Billion dollars of equity in 666 park ave. He did not have to sell, he wanted to. Further it is near certain that when Kushner cashed out, he used that money to invest AGAIN – probably in about $10B of properties and in 10 years he will be worth 10-20B instead of only 1B.
                    That is how commercial real estate works. That is how it works if you buy a crappy single family home at a tax auction for 50K, Or if you buy a 1.8B property on Park avenue. I would note that US had a housing bubble bust. It has NEVER had a commercial real estate bust.
                    I do not want to make claims about he future – China has a 16-28T bubble in commercial real estate that appears to be bursting right now.
                    It is china so the details are murky. In the US we have had recent issues in specific market segments – retail space has problems driven by the shift to online sales. But there are few bankruptcies, and most places are maintaining sufficient occupancy to meet their cashflow.
                    Regardless Kushner is not in retail space primarily and there is no retail space surplus in manhattan regardless. The either area that is stressed is office space. This is specific to the shift to working from home driven by Covid. That does not apply to 666 Park Ave as it was sold in 2018.
                    Thus far there is no bust in the commerical office space market. But occupancies are way down. I assess a significant number of office buildings and most are half occupied and only 75% rented. But most real estate investment breaks even at 75% rental. Thus far I have not seen distress in the commercial office space sector.

                    The point of all this is your claim that Kushner was “bailed out” – is idiocy. Industry wide I am aware of only a single Billion+ default in commercial real estate over the past 10 years.

                    “Don’t get me wrong, Hunter Biden may need to go to jail.”
                    I really do not care at all about Hunter Biden the lawless hedonist.
                    I have no compelling interest in jailing him. I do not care any more about him than any other entitled crackhead, scofflaw, who sponges off of others and can not even manage to pay child support.

                    Except to note – that description does not fit – Jared Kushner, Trump or any of his kids. You can like or dislike them. You can note they were born with a silver spoon and oportunities the rest of us have not had. But none of them are the disasterous mess that Hunter Biden is.

                    “But if you can only see the wrongdoing in your political foes and not those you support.”
                    I see wrongdoing where there is wrong doing. You have presented no evidence of actual wrong doing by Trump or any of his family.

                    Your evidence of wrong doing are just the normal conduct of business in the free market – people buying and selling things and getting paid for it.
                    Outside of your source I have not even verified that Qatar was involved – but I do not care – because the buyer got a building and Kushner got cash which he with certainty invested elsewhere. I every example you cite involving Trump or his family – value is traded for value. In this case buildings are traded for cash or cash is paid to invest large amounts of money – in things like buildings and companies, that make other things and provide jobs, and Kushner is paid for making that investment PROFITABLY.

                    In the Hunter Biden example the value Hunter receives is cash. In the Value Hunter provides is nearly always some form of lobbying.
                    Lobbying is not illegal. People like the Podesta’s and Manafort and even Hunter Biden are free to profit by lobbying congress or government to act beneficially to their clients. Only those of you on the left seem to think that is wrong – and only when Republicans do it.
                    Tony Podesta was the ACTUAL agent of a foreign country in Manaforts activities. Manafort never had direct dealings with the US government.
                    Hunter Biden was aggressively lobbying the state department on behalf of Burisma – this is well documented an legal.

                    The HUGE problem is that in all of Hunter Biden’s activities – Joe Biden played a role.

                    Joe had a little lamb,
                    Little lamb, little lamb,
                    Joe had a little lamb
                    Its fleece was white as snow.

                    And everywhere that Joe went,
                    Joe went, Joe went,
                    Everywhere that Joe went
                    Hunter was sure to go.

                    And profit, and Joe also profited and THAT is the problem.

                    ” We’ll end up with more Trump’s (take your pick, they’re all grifters).”
                    You keep saying that, but you have never demonstrated it.

                    Kushner exchanges value for value. Trump exchanges value for value.
                    Musk, Bezos, Gates, …. exchange value for value.

                    What people are concened about is what is the value Hunter is providing in return for the value he is receiving ?

                    Trump’s, Musks, Kushner’s exchanges are not your or my business so long as they are free market exchanges of value for value.
                    But the moment influence within govenrment is one side of the exchange – they involve all of us.
                    When those inside government are profiting by selling their government power influence – that is corruption and that is our business.

                    1. “I’m waiting for you to make the argument that a few hundred thousand isn’t as much as $2.8 million which somehow is less than $25 million a year.”
                      Why would I make an irrelevant argument ?

                      It does not matter how much money is involved. If the exchange is a free market exchange not involving government rents seeking – it is none of your business.

                      Elon Musk is paying 44B for Twitter – does the fact that number is even bigger make it public corruption ?
                      Of course not.

                      “Someone paid off Kavanaugh’s debts, what will he give them in return.”
                      So you say.
                      If true – you have a relevant point of inquiry.
                      There still has to be rent seeking for it to be public corruption.

                      ” If there were a reasonable explanation he’s had plenty of time to provide it..”
                      Other people are not obligated to tell you what you want to know about their private lives.
                      BTW that includes Hunter.
                      Prior to the laptop Dump all of what was available regarding Hunter came from FOIA requests or records from Ukraine.
                      I.E. Government – not personal records – and that was more than enough to start an investigation.

                      The records on the Laptop are public because of Hunter’s own conduct.
                      You lose your privacy when you leave your laptop at a computer repair shop and refuse to pick it up or pay for it for over a year.

                    2. Enigma, you never stop jumping from one false claim to another. When the evidence comes in you run away.

        1. Investments are not gifts.
          The expectation is profit. Exactly the same expectation you have when you put money in your 401K.
          Kushner has a track record of delivering.

          What was the expectation of those giving millions to Hunter Biden ?

      3. De onliest peoples wut is racist is dem heinyous white folks!

        Kanye West Says ‘Black People Don’t Have Connections’ Like Jews, Fueling Classic Anti-Semitic Stereotype
        Dec 2nd, 2013
        Published: 10.14.2022

        ExtremismAntisemitism in the US

        From:Center on Extremism

        Ye, formerly known as Kanye West, has recently used his media presence and social influence to espouse antisemitic tropes about Jewish intimidation, power and control.

        On October 6, Ye joined Fox News’ Tucker Carlson after his decision to wear a “White Lives Matter” shirt at Paris Fashion Week garnered heightened media attention. During the interview, some of which was not aired on Fox that evening, Ye made a series of offensive and conspiratorial claims about Jewish people and Jewish identity. Ye claimed that Jews are actually Black people, saying that when he refers to Jews he means “the 12 lost tribes of Judah, the blood of Christ, who the people known as the race Black really are [sic],” and posited that Planned Parenthood was the product of a collaboration between the KKK and Margaret Sanger “to control the Jew [i.e. Black] population.” He also said that it is impossible for him to be fairly described as antisemitic, because as a Black person he is actually a Jew.

        Ye also told Carlson that he believed Jared Kushner only arranged peace agreements between Arab nations and Israel “to make money.” At another point, Ye stated that he wished his children had learned about Hannukah instead of “a complicated Kwanzaa,” because Hannukah would at least “come with some financial engineering.”

        The next day, Ye shared screenshots of text messages on Instagram insinuating that Jews are using their purported control over his peers in the music industry to intimidate him and defiantly said that “no one can threaten or influence me.” The post has since been deleted.

        Ye also said that Jewish people “toyed with” him, and that they “tried to black ball anyone who opposes” their “agenda.” This tweet, in which Ye ominously referred to going ‘death con 3 on JEWISH PEOPLE,” raising the specter of violence, was later removed by Twitter.
        Unpacking Kanye West’s Antisemitic Remarks

        While Ye has been no stranger to controversy and antisemitism in recent years, this dangerous rhetoric may help advance the spread of existing false and antisemitic narratives shared by extremist groups.

        – ADL

        Los Angeles councilmen caught in racist remark scandal resist resignation calls
        Politics Oct 13, 2022 11:41 AM EDT

        LOS ANGELES (AP) — Two Los Angeles City Council members held out Thursday against overwhelming calls for them to resign after a recording surfaced of them participating in a secret meeting where a member made crude and racist remarks over redistricting tactics.

        Gil Cedillo and Kevin de Leon have issued no statements since Nury Martinez, who made remarks about a colleague’s Black son along with crass comments about Armenians and Jews, stepped down as council president Monday before resigning her seat Wednesday.

        However, acting council President Mitch O’Farrell said he had spoken to Cedillo and “I sense that he is making some progress toward that decision.”

        – PBS

      4. Equity

        equity noun

        eq·​ui·​ty | \ ˈe-kwə-tē
        plural equities
        Definition of equity

        1a : justice according to natural law or right specifically : freedom from bias or favoritism

      5. The Constitution does not establish equality or the outcome of any individual’s “pursuit of happiness.”

        The Constitution does not guarantee the popularity or disfavor of any individual or group of individuals.

        The declaration of the colonists stated their belief that men are CREATED equal by God.

        Equity is the ABSENCE of bias and favor as is the case with unconstitutional affirmative action.

        We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

        – Declaration of Independence

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