Breaking News: Students Prefer Courses Without Exams, Papers or Assignments

Professor Constance Kassor at Lawrence University in Wisconsin is reporting that her course has the highest enrollment in the university. She said that “this should tell us something about the current state of college students.” Indeed it does. Students have changed little. Kassor’s course “Doing nothing” gives credit pass/fail in a course that requires literally nothing beyond showing up: no paper, no assignments, no exam. Surprise: it is very popular.The Appleton Post Crescent, reported that the religious studies professor designed the course to help students deal with anxiety that they are not being productive. The idea seems to be to reduce that anxiety with a syllabus requiring no productivity beyond coming to class and hearing views on subjects ranging from tai chi, sleep habits and mind-body awareness.

It is not clear if Dr. Kassor thought that this would be a hard sell but she is reporting that it turns out that students like a course that requires nothing.

Frankly, I do not have a serious objection to a one-credit course on anxiety or stress relief if it is graded pass/fail. However, I am not sure how you fail such a class beyond simply not showing up. You are not actually required to relax if you are that gunner in the class.

Kassor is quoted as saying “This actually allows for students and for all of us to be deeper thinkers, to be more creative, to be more productive workers, to be better at our jobs.” Again, I am not sure that this is an avenue for deep thinking but it does show that college students remain rational actors.

150 thoughts on “Breaking News: Students Prefer Courses Without Exams, Papers or Assignments”

  1. Hilarious! And I prefer to get paid for drinking and golfing!

    I doubt I’ve added anything to this conversation, how many billions were spent for this stunning conclusion?

  2. Me and my wife were born in the late 50s. We met at UCLA in the late 70s. My background is Electrical Engineering and my wife’s is Finance. I ended up going to Community College to take English because UCLA taught English to writers. I was taught properly on how to write there. I all classes at Community College and UCLA there were tests and grades. When I went for advanced Management Training I also had testing in each course.

    We ended up going east due to business and our sons went to middle school and HS in Northern Virginia. This was in 96 and we found issues with the schools, the teachers, the admin, and the school boards. The way of teaching was not proper and we had issues. Me and my wife still had our sons go to school, but we tutored them through school to provide them what they lacked. They each graduated on different years and decided on different Trade Schools, which were much less then college. They make close around 6 figures, have houses, cars, and good bank accounts.

  3. I had an English teacher like this in high school back in the early 70s. First day he told us that as long as we showed up we would get a C. I felt nothing but disdain for this teacher and learned nothing from his class. Stupid early liberal.

  4. Oh my the students poo little anxiety deserves another all day sucker to suck on. One would think that they’re hunkering down in a fox hole somewhere in a foreign war. Soon the students will be getting a credit for spending an hour a week at the campus water slide. Excuuuse me if my heart doesn’t ooze with sympathy if their all day sucker is taken away. Palm applied to face.

  5. “she is reporting that it turns out that students like a course that requires nothing.”

    And yet, there are those that are surprised that many in this generation believe socialism to be the way forward. They have been taught to believe that in such a system, they’ll get by doing NOTHING. They might want to check with some old Chinese and ask them how well that worked out for them during Mao Zedong’s reign.

  6. Participation trophies, no grades even when failing, social passing to the next grade, multiple meaningless pronouns and zero discipline really prepares these brats for life, just NOT a successful, productive life!

  7. This is really great … parents have to ‘do something’ to pay for their kids taking the ‘doing nothing’ course. Even a one credit course costs! But then, if parents want to pay … well, then … Here is an idea … let the instructor teach the course without pay and if the students think the course is really valuable, take it for NO credit. That would be a real indication of the course’s worth.

  8. It’s telling how many people didn’t bother to read the article this column is talking about. Almost everyone has the wrong idea of what this course is really about. This professor and her colleagues made a very important observation. This has nothing to do with lazy students or “leftist ideology”.

    Here’s an excerpt from the original article,

    “ They exude an anxiety that they are wasting time if they aren’t being productive.

    And when they get a minute of free time, Kassor, an associate professor of religious studies, said she notices students will often spend it scrolling through their phones. So they asked themselves: How can we get students to be intentional about taking “down time”? How can we get them to reflect on who they are, what they need?

    They thought about crafting a contemplative studies minor. But that would just be one more thing for students to add to their transcripts and pile on to their already ambitious lists of undertakings.

    Instead, they developed a single course for students to take called “Doing Nothing.” It counts for one-sixth of a normal class, is graded as either pass or fail and meets for only one hour once a week. “

    This a genuine issue and it’s true. Students don’t know how to decompress or deal with anxiety. The professor hit upon an issue that is universal among students in every university or college. There’s a reason why it’s so popular. Not because it’s easy, but because it was a welcome change to learn how to actually have downtime and use it more effectively instead of just mindlessly scrolling thru their phones. It actually helps them think better. Scrolling thru your phone looking at tik toks for hours is not healthy. Students benefit from realizing there is more to down time than just sitting down and be glued to your phone.

    1. So students wasting their time is the colleges fault ?

      This is College.
      If you have not learned how to manage your own time by college – you do not belong there.

      You are not in college to learn mindfullness.

      In what world is scrolling through your phone being productive ?

      I would suggest that the professor is off by 180.
      Students do not need help doing nothing.
      They need help doing something meaningful.
      Taking a course in Doing Nothing is counter productive to that.

      If a student is suffering from anxiety – I am sure there is a “safe space”
      within 20meters, or the college will provide them with an emotional support lizard.

      1. “ So students wasting their time is the colleges fault ?”

        That’s not what they are saying at all. The professor made a valid observation.

        “ This is College.
        If you have not learned how to manage your own time by college – you do not belong there.”

        BS. These days a lot of students don’t really learn how to really relax or make use of their downtime. They are in college to LEARN and learning how to manage that as part of that their school offers apparently is what students seem to need. They pay for their education and if that’s what they see as something worthwhile why not? Why do you get to dictate how they should choose what they need?

        “ You are not in college to learn mindfullness.

        In what world is scrolling through your phone being productive ?”

        You’re not paying attention. The professor noted that students are NOT being productive when they are just buried in their phones on the only downtime they have. When they CAN use their downtime better they can actually think better and this. Course varies every time a professor of a different discipline offers an area of discussion that helps in that goal the better.

        “ I would suggest that the professor is off by 180.
        Students do not need help doing nothing.
        They need help doing something meaningful.
        Taking a course in Doing Nothing is counter productive to that.”

        This shows a lot of ignorance on your part. Doing nothing sometimes is meaningful. This is an alien concept to workaholics who never stop. It’s not healthy to the mind.

        1. ” Doing nothing sometimes is meaningful. “

          Do-nothing:
          couch potato, deadbeat, drone, idler, layabout, lazybones, loafer, lotus-eater, slouch, slug, slugabed, sluggard
          bum, derelict, good-for-nothing, ne’er-do-well, no-account, no-good, no-goodnik, slacker, vagrant

          Did you spend all 120 credits in the ‘do-nothing’ class?

          1. Anonymous, when they say doing nothing they are not literally saying to be a couch potato, be lazy, or a bum.
            Obviously you’re not reading for comprehension when the professor explain specifically what it is they do. Students these days have much more On their plate than students from your time or those of John B. Say’s generation. It’s easy to mock when it was easier and less stressful in their time. Students are expected to do more with less time these days and anxiety and stress are NOT healthy. This is why there is such a prevalence of energy drinking and going “extreme” at everything because it’s expected. What they don’t learn is how to actually relax, unplug, and just…do nothing. It’s ok to do that.

            Some those who are the workaholics and overachievers are also the ones who suffer the most health problems and mental illness issues. Those who actually learn to use their downtime more effectively are more likely to have better work/life balance which is more important.

            1. “Students these days have much more On their plate than students from your time or those of John B. Say’s generation”… that’s quite a bold assertion. How can you claim that? More on their plate because they have to define their pronouns or manage their social media?

              1. “ Students these days have much more On their plate than students from your time or those of John B. Say’s generation”… that’s quite a bold assertion. How can you claim that? More on their plate because they have to define their pronouns or manage their social media?”

                Yeah, it’’s a bold statement because it’s true. College or University is not the same as it was in your generation. University and college courses and requirements have changed a lot.

                Students are expected to do more with less time available just like in the real world. Productivity has increased thanks to such innovations such as iPads and iPhones, apps, and more efficient ways to cram more productivity into the shortest possible time. Some call it efficiency, others call it working harder.

                This has nothing to do with pronouns and managing social media. In fact it’s social media that has made things worse in terms of putting more on their plate. This is not your version of college or university. It’s THEIRS and we criticize it because WE had it a bit easier than they do. They have bigger expectations heaped on them than we did.

                1. “Yeah, it’’s a bold statement because it’s true.”

                  Do you think before you post ? Being bold does not make something true.

                  ” College or University is not the same as it was in your generation.”
                  Correct.
                  “University and college courses and requirements have changed a lot.
                  Students are expected to do more with less time”
                  False. Pretty much the opposite is true.

                  “Productivity has increased thanks to such innovations such as iPads and iPhones, apps, and more efficient ways to cram more productivity into the shortest possible time.”
                  Correct, these make it EASIER.

                  “Some call it efficiency,”
                  Yes,
                  “others call it working harder.”
                  Those would be obviously lying.
                  Computers exist to make life easier, If they made it harder they would not exist.

                  “This has nothing to do with pronouns and managing social media.”
                  Do not care.

                  “In fact it’s social media that has made things worse in terms of putting more on their plate.”
                  Then get off social media. It is not a requirement for life or college.

                  ” This is not your version of college or university.”
                  Correct, it is easier.
                  “It’s THEIRS”
                  No it is just college. It is not theirs – they do not own it.

                  “and we criticize it because WE had it a bit easier than they do.”
                  You are literally rejecting the entirety of history.
                  Each generation has it easier than the previous.
                  That is literally the purpose of progress.

                2. My wife is in graduate school right now.
                  My son is 2+ years into a computer science degree.
                  My daughter is about the same into a degree in counseling and social work.

                  I am well aware of how hard college is today.
                  The most authoritative books on computer science were written by Donald Knuth in the 70’s.
                  I still have my copies. My son can not even read them yet.

                  Course loads are lower, grades are dramatically inflated.

                  So we are clear – I expect my children to have an easier life and education.
                  That is why parents work as hard as they do.
                  I expect my children will strive to make the life for their children even easier.

                3. “They have bigger expectations heaped on them than we did.”
                  Really ? My father was a tank commander in the Korean war. I was just barely – by one month old enough to miss being drafted for Vietnam.
                  My grandfather fought in WWI. I grew up with the threat of nuclear anihilation.
                  One of the things I am most angry with those on the left is I only had children when that threat was gone, and you brought it back.

                  All the tools that YOU say are making my children’s lives harder were invented by my generation to make their lives easier.

                  You are so far disconnected from reality.

                  You think up is down,
                  and easy is hard.

            2. “Students these days have much more On their plate than students from your time or those of John B. Say’s generation”

              Such as? hey have literally no responsibility to participate in class, and complete the assignments.

              No one capable of signing your paycheck is concerned in the leas about your Twitter record or you demonstration attendance record.

              1. “ Such as? hey have literally no responsibility to participate in class, and complete the assignments.”

                University courses have more requirements these days than in the past. Also students are expected to do more with less and that doesn’t include working while at school for many of them.

                This is ONE class meeting once a week for one hour. Thats it. It counts as 1/6 towards their credit hours. This is not about being irresponsible. This is about what students are experiencing and this professor made an observation that all students agree is a problem. That is why so many students enroll in this class. This is literally what happens in the real world. Somebody notices a need and they provide a means to deal with it. This isn’t some class to just slack off and be lazy. It is about leaning how to use their downtime better instead of going to their phones.

                The point of the course is to identify ways to detach themselves from the pressures brought on by anxiety, and their course workload because it is NOT healthy to not address it. This is widely recognized in Europe and it is why there are laws separating work life and your personal life. That concept doesn’t exist in this county and it is an issue.

                1. “University courses have more requirements these days than in the past.”
                  Nope, less.
                  ” Also students are expected to do more with less”
                  Actually do less with more
                  “and that doesn’t include working while at school for many of them.”
                  Fewer students work today.
                  I worked while in school, with a normal academic load they will not even let you take today.

                  “This is ONE class meeting once a week for one hour.”
                  The problem is that it is for credit.

                  “This is about what students are experiencing and this professor made an observation that all students agree is a problem.”
                  If anything less than 100% of all students at any time ever anywhere did not agree that they needed a 1 credit course that had no requirements I would be shocked.

                  “That is why so many students enroll in this class.”
                  Because it is a free credit.

                  “This is literally what happens in the real world. Somebody notices a need and they provide a means to deal with it.”
                  And 9 times out of 10 they fail.

                  “This isn’t some class to just slack off and be lazy.”
                  sure sounds like that.

                  ” It is about leaning how to use their downtime better instead of going to their phones.”
                  JUst put down the phone. it is that easy.

                  “The point of the course is to identify ways to detach themselves from the pressures brought on by anxiety, and their course workload because it is NOT healthy to not address it.”
                  So see the school psychologist.

                  “This is widely recognized in Europe and it is why there are laws separating work life and your personal life.”
                  The standard of living in Europe is between 20% and 35% lower than the US

                  “That concept doesn’t exist in this county and it is an issue.”
                  Which is why our standard of living is higher.

                  Look arround you – it is the worst off people that have separate work and personal lives.

                  Regardless, you are free to structure your life as you please.
                  Just do not ask for college credit for doing so.

            3. Why is money paid for a college education? It is to educate the young to have more productive lives. You reveal who and what you are, a slacker. We see that in your responses where your facts are wrong. In class, you were twiddling your toes rather than trying to learn how to research and think critically. You feel yourself a success. You made it through life being a slacker reliant on others to work and think for you.

              “Students these days have much more On their plate than students from your time “

              Tell us what those things are and compare them to previous decades. You can’t, precisely because you are a slacker who comments without thinking or knowledge.

              ” It’s easy to mock when it was easier and less stressful in their time.”

              Cradle-to-grave is supposed to prevent the stresses of life. I guess the concept failed.

              ” Students are expected to do more with less time these days”

              Dumb. There were 24 hours in the day a century ago, and that hasn’t changed. Doing more? The actual workweek is diminishing and you think a diminishing workweek is doing more. Organic chemistry is being simplified. Is that to make the student study more? Are you an idiot?

              “This is why there is such a prevalence of energy drinking “

              Is the energy drinking booze or caffeine? Is the former the cause for the latter’s need?

              “Some those who are the workaholics and overachievers are also the ones who suffer the most health problems and mental illness issues. “

              More generalizations from an individual who knows next to nothing. It’s difficult to reply to a person who is so uninformed.

              1. “ Why is money paid for a college education? It is to educate the young to have more productive lives. You reveal who and what you are, a slacker.”

                S. Meyer, it is very obvious that you don’t read for comprehension at all. It is pointless to argue with the level if ignorance you carry.

                1. Svelaz, no one believes you and everyone knows you aren’t bright. You prove it every time you open your mouth. Stop trying to gaslight people.

            4. No Svelaz, students do not have more on their plate – they have LESS.

              That is normal, and it is OK. In fact it is exactly what every parent wishes for their kids – that their kids lives are easier in every way than their own.

              I have two kids in college right now. They are doing well and I am proud of them. But they have it easier than my wife and I. And that is how it should be.

              Mostly they have it easier because life overall is easier – again the benefits of rising standard of living.
              But partly they have it easier because colleges have lowered standards.

              Do you actually think about the claims you make before you post ?

            5. You keep making assertions that even if true are irrelevant.

              I have no problem with Colleges offering assistance to students with disabilities, or addressing mental health issues.
              I have no problems with Colleges helping students learn to manage their time.

              But not as a for credit course.

              College credit is for academic work – not for life skills training.

        2. “Why do you get to dictate how they should choose what they need?”

          I think that’s the point. It’s not about what they “need”. It’s about what the course load requires. If they are unable to meet those demands, they are unsuited for the program.

          1. “ I think that’s the point. It’s not about what they “need”. It’s about what the course load requires. If they are unable to meet those demands, they are unsuited for the program.”

            It is certainly what they need. Just because they have a heavy course load doesn’t mean they can’t seek better ways to manage that and this professor noticed that the majority of students don’t really know how to have real downtime which is important if you are going to have heavy course loads like that. It’s not about just toughing it out it’s about learning how to make it easier to do so. Nothing says you can’t or shouldn’t do that and that is the point. They are paying for their education and if their school offers such a course why not take it? It’’s their money and their choice.

        3. In the midst of your nonsense you actually make one important point.

          He who provides the gold makes the rules.

          But you operate off the delusion that students actually pay for their own education.
          Just as you have socialized undergraduate education you are doing so to post graduate education.

          You subsidize student loans and then forgive them.

          When you do that you make higher education EVERYONE’s business.

          In doing so you impose the worst possible structure for managing anything.

          Our debate over the merits of this are trivially solved in actual free markets.
          You and I disagree bout the merits and costs of this.

          Absent public subsidies – neither your nor my views are important.
          Schools, teachers, colleges will try different approaches and some will produce better results than others.
          And those will prevail.

          If I am wrong all colleges will eventually do this.
          If I am not this will end in failure quickly.

          That is how free markets work.

          But as with almost everything YOU, the left touch – you destroy free markets.
          You move in an attempt to impose one size fits all solutions through excercise of political power.
          But you forget – it is not your money you are spending, it is mine.
          The moment you involve government directly or indirectly – you shift control from those actually involved
          to distant strangers who pay no price for poor decisions.
          Further you create ever more issues for unnecessary political conflict.

          The destruction that is going on all arround us in entirely your fault.

          Even where you can get 90% agreement from citizens – you still have 10% opposing you.
          Times one thousand issues, and you will inevitably have all of the country angry and distrustful of govenrment over atleast one issue that is significant to them.

          Every new thing you bring into the domain of government is something new for all of us to fight over.

          Is something new to divide us all further.
          Is a new reason for some to distrust government and our institutions.

          If you had a decent HS education you would know that one of the themes of the Arthurian legends is “man bears the seeds of his own destruction”. The central premise of the left – that government is the solution to problems, is why it must always fail.
          The only question is how much failure it will take and how large the backlash will be.

          The more democrats double down on moving left and refuse to move towards he center, the bigger the backlash will be.

          2016 was supposed to be a warning to change strategy.

          Instead Democrats have doubled down on left wing nut nonsense, and have only survived because the increasingly control the elites and the institutions. But that only takes you so far, and makes things worse when the dam bursts.

          Those of you on the left view Trump as an existential threat which is complete lunacy – 4 years of Trump were better than 8 years of obama, 8 years of bush and 2 years of Biden.
          Perfect ? No Trump is far from the great president he imagines himself to be.
          But he is great compared to any 21st century president.

          Regardless, keep doubling down on stupid. keep upping the ante, and you make it more likely that we will get someone who is an existential trheat.

          1. Students still pay for their education after taking out an education loan. Just because the loan is backed by a government guarantee doesn’t mean you get to dictate what they can or cannot choose what course they can take. The majority of those loans are provided by private banks and guaranteed by the government which gets the moneys back after the student finishes school. It’s still their money they are spending on paying it back.

            “ Absent public subsidies – neither your nor my views are important.
            Schools, teachers, colleges will try different approaches and some will produce better results than others.
            And those will prevail.

            If I am wrong all colleges will eventually do this.
            If I am not this will end in failure quickly.

            That is how free markets work.”

            Colleges and universities offer various kinds of courses that either fail or succeed ALL the time. They adjust their courses according to current markets and their needs in what kinds of careers are in demand and what industry needs. They also offer courses in things that are not specifically needed, but are beneficial to some people who wish to pursue a career that is unique in a certain part of the society.

            “ Instead Democrats have doubled down on left wing nut nonsense, and have only survived because the increasingly control the elites and the institutions. But that only takes you so far, and makes things worse when the dam bursts.”

            No. They survive because ultimately those ideas or policies do end up making sense in the end. You are relying too much on the flawed assumption that everything about the left MUST fail because it’s…the left. Look at what is going on in Britain right now. Conservatives are in chaos and disarray because their policies which are similar to what they push here are not working AND are making things worse. Brexit has turned into failure and now those who supported it are trying to blame those who were warming everyone else that it was going to be a bad idea as not warning everyone about it.

            These kinds of courses are NOT going to be about teaching student to be lazy, or couch potatoes, or slackers, or whatever. The name of the course is rhetorical and those criticizing it are making criticisms out of ignorance instead of reading for comprehension.

            1. So long as I am paying for atleast part of my kids education directly – I CAN dictate.
              So long as YOU are requiring me to subsidize the education of all students – I CAN dictate.

              You do not seem to grasp that whenever you make something part of government you give EVERYONE a voice an opinion.
              And frankly you have no right to ignore those voices or opinions so long as they are paying.

              You can not have the freedom that you want – with others footing the bill, that is a massive moral hazzard – which is an erudite way of saying – “Won’t Work”.

            2. Svelaz, no society EVER has thrived going in the direction you are trying to go.
              You are not going to magically defy the odds.

              You keep constantly citing Europe. The standard of living in Europe is 20-35% below the US.

              Here is the first in a great series on economics by PBS.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfRTpoYpHfw

              I would note that as always we have language issues.
              At the time this was produced “Globalization” meant Global free markets.
              As with most everything the Left has coopted the term and the application.
              and today it means something closer to Global governance by the elites.
              As a result of changing language – in the early 21st century the left opposed “globalisation” while today they embrace it.
              While the right supported globalization, and now they oppose it.
              The real positions of the left and right have not changed, just the meaning of the word.

              Regardless, PBS has done a 6 hour long series amazingly accurately covering the ideological battles of the past century in the domain of economics, and what has worked and what has not.

              The conclusion is damning – government control of the economy (and much of the rest of life) FAILS.
              While economic freedom (and most other freedom) raises the standard of living of all.

              The real fundamentals are not hard to understand. How to best apply those fundamentals deep into the trenches of an economy which has trillions of transactions per second is much harder. But we know what does not work – top down efforts to control fail.

              And your ideology is inherently top down.

            3. Brexit has not failed – it fundimentally has not even happened.

              The UK has massive problems – one of those being that conservative in the UK means something quite different from in the US.
              PM Johnson had one of the worst performances regarding Covid in the western world – his policies were as bad as the worst US Blue state.
              Truss’s tenure was short lived because she tried to combine tax cuts with spending increases and the bond markets massacred her.

              Those on the left in this country should SERIOUSLY think about that. The UK has an 89% debt to GDP rate, The US has a 125% Debt to GDP rate.

              The inflation we are seeing has forced governments to stop financing their own debt as that is the direct cause of inflation.
              But ending Central Bank Debt financing means a return of Market Discipline to government spending.

              Increases in the interest that the US must pay on its debt will rapidly swallow the entire federal budget.

              It has taken over 10 years for the nay sayers to be proved right about the dangers of government buying its own debt.
              But it may take 10 years to get out of the damage we have done.

              And the only good news is that with the mess that appears to be coming – the damage to the US will likely be less than much of the rest of the world.

        4. With respect to details

          We are discussing college and you are talking problems students should resolve in elementary school.

          If you are after a college degree – you had better hgas some idea how to manage your own time, and stress.

          If not – go back to HS.

          1. Nope. Still BS. We don’t teach how to manage downtime in elementary or high school. Ironically they do in European countries. Which is why they have better life/work balance in their societies.

            What elementary or HS classes teach students how to manage their downtime? Kids are loaded with homework and extracurricular activities in their free time by parents.

            1. Lots of things we do not teach in elementary school.

              Please do not try to sell european schools. In a few instances some are better – usually those doing exactly the opposite of what you are demanding. On the whole they are worse – though it is a race because we are rapidly ruining ours.

              Regardless, despite all the massive problems that the Woke have inflicted on them US colleges remain the best in the world – by far.
              Europe used to have the best – and they destroyed them – pretty much by following your advice.

        5. Your post is full of completely irrelevant responses.

          I have no interest in debating whether doing nothing is sometimes meaningful.

          That is not the question.

          The question is whether it is a legitimate use of college resources – and the answer is clearly NO!

          Students need 120 credits to get a bachelor’s degree.

          I expect that a college certifying that someone is competent enough at engineering to design a bridge that my life depends on is not going to have awarded college credits to “doing nothing” rather than calculating the moment in a steel beam.

          1. “ The question is whether it is a legitimate use of college resources – and the answer is clearly NO!

            Students need 120 credits to get a bachelor’s degree.”

            There are a lot of courses that are questionable in college, but students have an option of taking them. They are NOT required and if a study is willing to pay for them then it’s their choice. What you think is irrelevant. It doesn’t mean their degree will be any less significant if they choose to take the course. You do know that the “do nothing” description of the course is rhetorical right?

            Clearly you’re not grasping the point behind the idea of offering the course. Being blinded by your hatred of anything regarding the left is a problem.

            1. Absolutely students have some choices – electives.

              But underwater basket weaving is not an actual course. All electives are still expected to contribute towards the goals of an accredited degree program.

              Self help, down time are NOT legitimate for credit electives.

            2. I grasp the possibility – though far from your certainty that their might be some value to what you are ranting about.

              Regardless, it is NOT a legitimate for credit course.

              Colleges provide many services and resources for students – that are NOT for credit.

          2. John Say, every major specifies certain required courses. Meeting these requirements is much more difficult than simply 120 credits, a requirement which is occasionally waived.

            And as you should know, engineering a bridge requires obtain a Professional Engineer’s license from the state, ordinarily after some time as an EIT, which requires it’s own exam.

            Maybe you should quit showing that you are a KnowNothing?

            1. The only part of your post I disagree with is your claim that I am a know-nothing.

              That and Why are you ranting at me ? Everything you are saying confirms what I have been posting.

              As you note many things are required to build a bridge – and you will never get to any of those without an accredited degree.

              Svelaz may or may not be correct about the benefits of much of what he is saying.
              What he is wrong about is whether they are a legitimate part of an accredited degree.

              This is much like the similar debate about elementary education.

              If you arrive at college – or your first job at McD’s and you are expert in CRT, but can not add 1 + 1 and get 2 – your education FAILED.

      2. “ If a student is suffering from anxiety – I am sure there is a “safe space”
        within 20meters, or the college will provide them with an emotional support lizard.”

        Mocking it just makes just amplifies your ignorance on why it was made into a course. It’s just one hour a week. It’s something that was noticed among students from staff that interact with them on a daily basis. It was a valid observation and mocking it because it seems ridiculous to you or because it’s a “lefty” thing ignores the importance that was recognized not just by this professor but her colleagues as well.

        1. Mocking this stupidity is the only appropriate response.

          You have been arguing the legitimacy of this for several posts.

          You have failed miserably.
          You have failed multiply.

        2. Every single argument you have made – even if True would change nothing.

          This is offered as a COURSE,
          It is not one.

          BTW I was not entirely mocking.

          If you come to college without the skills needed to perform in college there are a number of options:

          Leave college and get prepared
          get assistance from the college outside the curiculum.

          What should not be done, is to provide college credit for addressing your failure to be prepared or your fragile mental health.

          Should college provide college credit to students with drug or alcohol problems for completing rehab ?

          You said some students had dyslexia or ADHD – if colleges find it valueable to assist students with those issues – fine.
          But we do not give college credit for your efforts to overcome your own disabilities.

    2. “Scrolling thru your phone looking at tik toks for hours is not healthy.”

      So put your phone down.

      Aren;t we talking about the people who think they know how to run the world ?

      “You can’t even run your own life, I’ll be damned if you’ll run mine’

      1. “ Scrolling thru your phone looking at tik toks for hours is not healthy.”

        So put your phone down.

        Aren;t we talking about the people who think they know how to run the world ?”

        We are talking about students. People learning. They don’t know anything yet. That’s why they are going to college.

        You think it’s easy to just put your phone down or do something else. Even those who have issues such as ADHD or dyslexia will have trouble really knowing how to use their downtime. What students are dealing with today is not the same as when you were in college. It’s completely different.

        1. “”Aren;t we talking about the people who think they know how to run the world ?”
          We are talking about students.”
          Yes the idiots who think youy know how to run the world.

          “People learning. They don’t know anything yet. That’s why they are going to college.”
          Yet, that is not what you or they tell me.
          If they are old enough to choose to surgically alter their body to that of the opposite sex,
          they are old enough to manage their own time.

          “You think it’s easy to just put your phone down or do something else. Even those who have issues such as ADHD or dyslexia will have trouble really knowing how to use their downtime. ”
          I do not care if it is easy. Life is not easy. Dyslexia and ADHD are a small portion of people, regardless, there is no recent epidemic of dyslexia and ADHD.

          “What students are dealing with today is not the same as when you were in college. It’s completely different.”
          Yes, it is easier. Just as what I have had to deal with is easier than what my parents had to deal with.

          You seem to think I am ignorant of the world.

          I went to college, My wife went to college, My siblings went to college, my children are in college now.
          Nothing of consequence has changed much. What has is easier.

          1. “ What students are dealing with today is not the same as when you were in college. It’s completely different.”
            Yes, it is easier. Just as what I have had to deal with is easier than what my parents had to deal with.

            You seem to think I am ignorant of the world.”

            No, you are ignorant about a few things and that includes some aspects of the world.

            It’s harder and more expensive. Your experience is not proof that it equates to what others experience. That is part of that ignorance you have.

            “ You think it’s easy to just put your phone down or do something else. Even those who have issues such as ADHD or dyslexia will have trouble really knowing how to use their downtime. ”
            I do not care if it is easy. Life is not easy.”

            There you go. You just admitted the whole point. Life is not easy and that includes going to college or university. A professor notices an issue that would help students make it a bit easier to deal with the fact that life is not easy. You seem to ridicule the whole notion that making it easier is somehow a weakness or a failure. It seems like you are more resentful about the fact that they have an option that you didn’t when you were in college and are now lashing out because you had it “harder” and you “pushed thru” the difficulty. It’s a good thing THEY have the options YOU didn’t and you resent that by showing disdain at their “easier” life than yours and blaming it as a “leftist” thing because it’s easier than just admitting they have better options than you did. Now it makes more sense.

            1. It is more expensive – that is your fault.

              Recent studies by the FED found that for every additional $1 in federal student loans, the cost of college increases by $0.61.

            2. Logic eludes you

              “Life is not easy.”
              There you go. You just admitted the whole point. Life is not easy and that includes going to college or university
              “What students are dealing with today is not the same as when you were in college.”
              Non-sequitur.

              Do I actually need to explain the logic error here ?

            3. “The Finnish web site says they average 3hrs a day, BUT that is does not mean they don’t actually do 3hrs of homework a day.”

              average: equaling an arithmetic mean

              they “actually” do 3hrs of homework a day.

              Sometimes 2, others 4 but the mean amount of homework they do is 3hrs.

    3. You really really really do not seem to grasp that you are responsible for your own life.

      If College students are still toddler’s – that is not the responsibility of college to fix.
      Nor is it within the capability of colleges.

      If you are suffering from woke tiktok addiction – YOU must seek help.
      Pretty sure that every successful addiction program STARTS with the addict recognizing they have a problem.

      1. “ You really really really do not seem to grasp that you are responsible for your own life.

        If College students are still toddler’s – that is not the responsibility of college to fix.
        Nor is it within the capability of colleges.”

        No, you’re not grasping the point here. They ARE being responsible for their own lives. They KNOW that they needed something like this and the professor noticed it. Offering the class GAVE the students what they KNEW they needed. That’s taking responsibility for their lives. The students are PAYING for their education and when the school offers a course they KNOW will help them because a professor recognized a problem they had is not suggesting college students are “toddlers”. They are still young adults without real world experiences and still learning. This is just another notch in that learning process they can use.

        Students are the ones paying the college. If the school offers them a course they are interested in they what difference does it make what YOU think? It’s THEIR choice, THEIR education, THEIR life. You seem to be giving the “I used to walk 10 miles to school barefoot” argument. You’re jealous of others having options YOU didn’t have. Boo hoo. How dare those students have options you didn’t have or have professors who are proactive in addressing student needs. It’s one hour a week course. You and others seem to have gone on a bender of “leftist” mocking and derision over an issue they didn’t bother researching or tried to understand.

        1. If you have a problem with drug addiction – you should not get college credit for going to rehab.

          You do not grasp that college credit is not given to repair your deficits.

          1. “ If you have a problem with drug addiction – you should not get college credit for going to rehab.

            You do not grasp that college credit is not given to repair your deficits.”

            Sorry John, but it is you who is not getting it. You’re seeing this in purely literal terms and that is the problem. The whole point of the course is NOT to tread addiction. It is NOT to reward failure, and it. Is NOT enabling students to be lazy or couch potatoes.

            This is only a 1/6 college credit. That’s it. It’s what many universities and colleges do. They offer courses on other things that students may find appealing and worthwhile. You keep making this about what it should be. Schools still have to make money don’t they and offering these classes is one way to do so even if it’s merely 1/6 credit. There are a LOT of classes that are required for a degree and that are just as equally worthless in relation to the degree or course of study. Again, this is one way these schools make money. Ultimately it’s entirely a students choice whether to take the class or not. All the school can do is offer it.

            University and college is NOT what it used to be in YOUR time. You’re comparing it to what it once was and that is the flaw in your argument.

            1. Do you understand the meaning of literal ?

              literal: Avoiding exaggeration, metaphor, or embellishment; factual; prosaic.

              I am taking you at your word.

              Regardless we are not engaged in a debate over fiction or poetry.
              I expect that you will say what you mean.

            2. “This is only a 1/6 college credit.”
              So ?

              “That’s it. It’s what many universities and colleges do.”
              My son has been to two, my daughter 3 none have this. I doubt it is many.
              Regardless, fraud is fraud.

              “They offer courses on other things that students may find appealing and worthwhile.”
              So ?
              My son does not find data structures appealing. I do. Regardless, it is a for credit course in computer science.

              “Schools still have to make money”
              They are not having any trouble.
              Should offer drugs ? That would help make money.

              “There are a LOT of classes that are required for a degree”
              About 40.

              “and that are just as equally worthless in relation to the degree or course of study.”
              If true those should be gone too.
              Of course you are wrong. but that is an aside.

              “Again, this is one way these schools make money.”
              The mob makes money loan sharking.

              “Ultimately it’s entirely a students choice whether to take the class or not. All the school can do is offer it.”
              Do you think about what you write first ?
              Should schools offer underwater basket weaving ?

              “University and college is NOT what it used to be in YOUR time.”
              Correct, it is easier. more expensive and involves much more coddling.

              “You’re comparing it to what it once was and that is the flaw in your argument.”
              A feature not a flaw.

              All change is not good. In fact MOST change is bad.

              We are in agreement colleges have gotten more expensive and less rigorous.
              While the price of a college degree has increased the value is being diminished.

        2. You do not seem to grasp that your arguments do not matter.

          Should college students be provided with subsidized or free laundry service while at college ?

          I think not, managing your own life is part of becoming an adult.
          You disagree, many colleges do also.
          That is ok.

          But know college offers college credit for teaching you to do your own laundry.

          1. Now you’re just oversimplifying in order to avoid the point. You don’t want to recognize or agree the fact that this is a valid issue by trotting out this silly notion about laundry. Come on john you’re better than that.

            Not everyone is prepared when they get to college. You seem to think that by that time everyone should be ready and responsible for the realities of life after high school. These are young adults who STILL have a LOT to learn and college is where they learn what they missed in their earlier years. You see this as some form of failure and neglect the fact that these are still young adults who have zero experience or are just starting to live in the real world.

            College is where they learn something new besides their chose field or career. They are there to learn new perspectives and ways to do things besides what “they should already have known”. College and University is more than just getting college credits and that seems to be the part that you are not getting. You are viewing this in a purely as some sort of zero sum game. It’s far more complex than that.

            1. “Now you’re just oversimplifying in order to avoid the point. You don’t want to recognize or agree the fact that this is a valid issue by trotting out this silly notion about laundry. Come on john you’re better than that.”
              Reductio ad absurdum

            2. “Not everyone is prepared when they get to college.”

              Then they should not be there.

              Not everyone is prepared to be a nascar driver either.

              Regardless, if you arrive at college and are not prepared to be there – that of course is also a failure of the college admissions process, and arguably fraud on their part,

              But if the college wishes to make the effort to get you fully prepared – they may do so.
              But providing college credit for work necescary to get you to where you were supposed to be day one is fraud.

              If I hire an engineer, I expect that they will have had 120 successful credits of college level work – not 100, with an extra 20 of college prep.

              1. “But providing college credit for work necessary to get you to where you were supposed to be day one is fraud.”

                That is Svelaz’s underlying argument. He wants everyone equal (In that way, intellectually handicapped people do not stand out). That is an impossibility, so he wants everything to function in a fashion to make everyone equal. If the premed student cannot pass organic chemistry, let him substitute underwater basket weaving for organic chemistry.

                When he gets improper care from a physician that causes him harm, he will do what Democrats are noted for, SUE. He will demand those that permitted a doctor to graduate with underwater basket weaving be subpoenaed before Congress which will immediately declare some sort of racial discrimination and demand that premed students study more black history and eliminate mathematics and physics. Once done he believes medicine will be great, and we can all go on living happily.

                1. The equal start argument is both stupid and independent.

                  If a college wishes to magically get all students to some impossible equal starting point – they are free to do so.
                  But you can not get college credit for the effort to reach equality with other students.

                  Many private colleges have diversity programs that accept unqualified minority students.
                  If that is what they want to do – fine.
                  They can put effort into getting a student that is behind caught up.
                  But they can not offer college credit for the effort necescary to reach the starting line.

                  There is an independent issue regarding whether they can charge the student to get them to the same place most other students are.
                  I think if they were not clear when they accepted the student that they would need remedial work – then they are engaged in fraud.

                  If you offer a student entrance to college without qualification, KNOWING they are not fully prepared – that is fraud.

            3. I would note – you can not even keep your arguments straight.

              Is this remediation for failed HS education ?

              Or is it something else ?

              Make up your mind.

              From one moment to the next you can not seem to know what it is YOU think this is.

              I have laid waste to your claims that myriads of outside accredited curicula course deserve credit.

              Some of those may have value, some are worthless.

              As best as I can tell you are seeking to give college level credit for study hall. They did not do that at High School.

              As to the shotgun approach you are using.

              Additional prep for unprepared students:
              Refund their money and send them home, or provide them the remedial work they need FREE and without credit.

              Assistance in dealing with anxiety depression, etc:
              Probably a good idea. Not for credit.

              Study Hall:
              Not for credit.

              Respite from the hassles of the world:
              not for credit.

      2. “ Pretty sure that every successful addiction program STARTS with the addict recognizing they have a problem.”

        The irony of that statement couldn’t be more obvious. The professor RECOGNIZED a problem here. She offered a solution to it and students, a lot of students, agree with her assessment. That’s why her course is so successful.

        Dealing with stress, anxiety, and knowing how to just “do nothing” is a valuable tool to address it. This is widely recognized in Europe. Even in Finnish schools they don’t ever give homework to students. They recognize the importance of students time and home time. This is one of the reasons why they are consistently ranked among the best education systems in the world.

        1. The irony is that you missed the point entirely.

          Successfully dealing with addiction starts with the ADDICT recognizng they have a problem.

          Regardless, we do not give college credit for going to rehab.

          The course is sucessful because students are offered something for nothing.

          1. “ The course is sucessful because students are offered something for nothing.”

            Again you are NOT reading for comprehension here. It is successful because students ARE getting something beneficial out of it. That is how to more effectively use their free time besides just burying their heads into their phones. This is not merely about an “addiction” it’s about doing something different than going straight to your phone. You’re completely missing the whole purpose of the course because you can’t grasp the concept of the benefits of “doing nothing” and that is a rhetorical phrasing of what it is that they are doing. They are indeed doing something they are not literally doing nothing and just sitting around and that is the crux of your problem. You are taking this way too literally and basing your gripes on that mistake.

            1. What I am doing is ignoring your myriads of straw men.

              “Again you are NOT reading for comprehension here. ”
              Your problem is that I do comprehend.

              Ignoring some spin regarding claims of the college and you that this is successful.
              And your blatantly idiotic claims that pretty much anything in sync with your ideology must be successful.

              The point is that everything – whether beneficial or not, is not entitled to college credit.
              You keep ignoring that.

        2. Svelaz, I highly doubt you have a clue about european and particularly finnish education.

          Nor is it relevant.

          Since you want to devolve to that though – Singapore has one of one of the most intense education systems in the world.
          Their students out perform those throughout the world by a substantial margin on all tests.
          Yet the head of education in Singapore has said the US education system is better.
          Americans outperform Singapore in life. We produce more leading engineers, more leading scientists. more entrepreneurs, more of all the things that will change the world. That will improve everyone’s life.

          1. “ We produce more leading engineers, more leading scientists.”

            Nope. The majority of those leading engineers and scientists are foreign students learning here. “WE” are not producing engineers and scientist that are our own. There’s clearly a caveat in that statement of yours.

            “ Svelaz, I highly doubt you have a clue about european and particularly finnish education.”

            Unfortunately you are incorrect on that assumption.

            1. ““ We produce more leading engineers, more leading scientists.”
              Nope. The majority of those leading engineers and scientists are foreign students learning here. “WE” are not producing engineers and scientist that are our own. There’s clearly a caveat in that statement of yours.”

              False. and irrelevant.
              Of 4.7M engineers and Scientists in the US 1.1M are foreign born.
              Those foreign students as you say – come here. learn here, and many of them stay here. And I welcome them.
              WE produced them.

              But if those like you keep ruining our education they will quit coming and we will be poorer.

              “” Svelaz, I highly doubt you have a clue about european and particularly finnish education.”
              Unfortunately you are incorrect on that assumption.”

              You have already proven I am incorrect by significnat false claims regarding Finnish education.

              Again you could be correct 100% of the time by just checking your facts before posting.

            2. “For example, an average high school student in the US has to spend about 6 hours a day doing homework, while in Finland, the amount of time spent on after school learning is about 3 hours a day.”

              I would love to know the US HS student that spends even 3hrs a day on homework.

              Regardless the claim that Fins have no homework is false.

        3. Your arguments are all over the place.
          Most are likely wrong.
          But even when they are right they are irrelevant.

          You confuse achieving excellence with achieving normal-lacy.

          We do not give college credit for overcoming addiction.
          We do not give college credit for managing ADHD or Dyslexia, or Depression, or Anxiety.

          We do not give college credit for being Trans of Gay or Black.
          Or for overcoming discrimination.

          These all may be laudable accomplishments.
          They may even contribute to achieving excellence – just a managing your hygiene is a necessity for excellence.

        4. Finland requires about 3hrs a day of homework according to the Finnish Dept Education.
          Of course the Finn’s claim the US had 6 hrs of homework a day. I do not know about others,
          but I never personally averaged even 3 hrs a day. The finn’s claim that more homework correlates to lower performance.
          Except apparently in asia where elementary and HS students are never not doing homework except when they are in school and have the highest test scores.

          But NONE of this has anything to do with giving college credit for doing nothing.

          The details of how to most effectively teach are an important topic for research – you cited the Finn’s – they have among the smallest class sizes and the greatest levels of individual attention – a well known factor in success.

          You do not seem to understand that just because you think an idea is good does not make it so.

          I recently listened to Bill Barr on Bari Weis’s honestly, discussing rising violence and crime. Barr was agressively pushing a return to all the draconian law enforcement that developed from the mid 80’s through to recently. Simultaneosly he was rejecting just about every recent “reform” of law enforcement.

          Barr is almost certainly right about one thing – a return to the policies of a decade ago will reverse the trend to rising violence.

          It is near certain that in the long list of policies of the “law and order” crowd some of those policies were efective at reducing crime and violence.

          It is also near certain that among the reforms we have brought in over the past decade – some of those have NOT contributed to rising violence.

          But like your claims regarding Finnish education, Barr presumes that each and every policy was sucessful and lowered crime and violence.

          One of the top factors in the upcoming election is crime and violence.
          And whether you like it or not, the right, the Bill Barr types OWN that issue. The left has LOST the fight.
          That does not mean that Barr is right, that every draconian law enforcement policy is a necescity, or that the left is entirely wrong, that atleast some law enforcement reforms have been beneficial.

          But people look arround and they see rising crime and violence – and they are going to give the Bill Barr types the power they need to end that.

          Barr is doing the same thing as you – he has taken a shotgun to the problem, and so long as any of his policies have a benefit, we will be stuck with all of them.

          But there is a difference between Barr, and you and the left – by the criteria that people care about – Barr succeeds, you and the left do not.

          1. Barr’s approach to crime and violence is nothing more than going back to the “build more prisons” approach to problems that are better dealt with by fixing and facing social inequalities that persist. Barr’s approach is basically throw the trash away in prisons and problems will go away. All that does is shifts problems behind a “closet” instead of dealing with the cause in the first place.

            Putting people in jail is not a solution. It’s a avoiding the hard work of fixing the underlying causes. The approach is the easiest way to deal with it because it just involves putting people in jail and forgetting about. It. That idea has never worked and it’s always been a bad idea. Going back to that old failure is a failure to think differently.

            1. God, you are dense.

              Barr’s approach is multifaceted.

              I am near certain that many of those facets are WRONG.
              That said, Barr’s complete approach will with near certainty revert back to the levels of crime and violence we had previously.

              A growing majority of Americans will buy that.

              The approach of those on the left is also multifaceted.
              I am near certain that some of those facets are RIGHT.
              That said, the left’s complete approach will with near certainty increase the levels of crime and violence.

              A growing majority of Americans will not buy that.

              It is near certain that Barr – and the part of the GOP that embraces his approach have won this argument.
              And will be dictating policy for another decade – whether you or I like that or not.

              This outcome however is YOUR fault.
              There was an opertunity for slow rational stepwise reforms, where we could assess which worked and which did not.
              You eschewed that took a shotgun approach and will with near certainty see all reforms reversed and possibly more draconian policies imposed.

              I am not interested in debating the details of criminal justice reform with you – because like with nearly every issue you allow a warped and broken ideology to blind your thought, and when you end up with power the results are disaster.

              I do not know what actually works and what does not – though I beleive that with the evidence provided by the recent reversal of trends and the measures that have been taken over the past 5 years we probably have the data to tell what did work and what did not.

              Regardless, it should be evident to all but left wing nuts, that abruptly imposing new policies without real study based on ideology is a failure.
              One democrats are going to pay for.
              That does not mean you are wrong about everything – it means you were wrong about somethings, and the net result was negative, and you are unwilling or unable to make an actual assessment.

            2. I do not agree with long sentences.

              But the FACT is that putting people in jail for long periods DOES work.
              It is expensive and inefficient – but it works.

              We can and should do better.
              But the measure that voters are using is the level of crime, not the efficiency of the criminal justice system.

              Your arguments make it clear you do not understand that.

    4. It is interesting – you constantly defend things because they are values of the left – not because they are good ideas.
      It is not even necescary for something to work for you to defend it – it just must reflect what you view as good intentions.
      That it is a bad idea and a misserable failure is fine if intentions were good.

      Conversely those who actually succeed in the real world – especially those who not only succeed but whose success benefits the rest of us – they MUST even evil motives,

      Do you understand that if you create a world in which failure is rewarded – if your intentions are good,
      and success is punished – because success is by defninition eveidence of mad intentions, that world MUST decay into poverty ?

      1. “ It is interesting – you constantly defend things because they are values of the left – not because they are good ideas.”

        Not true. I defend things because they are good ideas. Not just because they are “values of the left”. You mock anything regarding the left even if it’s just a simple common sense approach to something. Your partisan bias doesn’t let you step back and see something for what it is. Instead you immediately head into mockery or denigration just because it’s an idea from the left. That’s pretty sad.

        “ It is not even necescary for something to work for you to defend it – it just must reflect what you view as good intentions.
        That it is a bad idea and a misserable failure is fine if intentions were good.”

        That’s how people find out what works and what doesn’t and things can be adjusted so it does end up working. You immediately call it a bad idea and dismiss it out of hand. A lot of “bad ideas” have turned out to be beneficial throughout history.

        1. “Not true. I defend things because they are good ideas. Not just because they are “values of the left”.”
          False, you litterally do not distinguish between values of the left and good ideas.

          You have made a number of claims that X is beneficial to people – I agree with some of those and not others.
          But whether they are benefitical is a testable fact, not an ideological claim – except that is all it is for you.

          You claimed the Finn’s give no homework – that is false, The finnish dept education web site says that on average Finn’s get 3hrs a day.
          You claimed that students perform better with less homework – again the Finnish DOE web site says that Asian countries have more homework and perform better.

          I am not specifically looking to debate homework – just point out that YOUR simplistic claims are nonsense.

          “You mock anything regarding the left”
          The left makes themselves infinitiely mockable.
          If you do not want mocked, do not say stupid things.

          “even if it’s just a simple common sense approach to something.”
          The point exactly – you can not distinguish between your ideology and common sense.
          I would suggest despensing with the term common sense – because like most such phrases, it nearly always means – what my ideology leads to, and deal with proveable facts.

          “Your partisan bias doesn’t let you step back and see something for what it is. Instead you immediately head into mockery or denigration just because it’s an idea from the left. That’s pretty sad.”

          My bias is for facts.

          ““ It is not even necescary for something to work for you to defend it – it just must reflect what you view as good intentions.
          That it is a bad idea and a misserable failure is fine if intentions were good.”
          That’s how people find out what works and what doesn’t”
          No it is not, nor is that what you do.

          I have said this over and over – most ideas fail – without regard for their intentions.
          That is the norm.

          “and things can be adjusted so it does end up working.”
          More evidence of ideology driving reality – most ideas FAIL – they can not be adjusted.
          Failure is not always a reason to discard rather than adjust – but is usually is.

          “You immediately call it a bad idea and dismiss it out of hand. A lot of “bad ideas” have turned out to be beneficial throughout history.”
          Not really.

          Success is quite hard. You really do not grasp that.
          The norm is not that we take a bad idea and adjust it until it works,
          it is that we go through dozens of good ideas until one works – a little, and then we revise it over and over – mostly failing, and going back,
          until we improve a little.

          One of the miracles of real free societies is that individuals can go through this cycle incredibly rapidly.

          How many rockets did Muck blow up, before one worked ?
          How many botched landings, before one worked ?

          Failure is far far more common than success.
          But the benefits of success are so great they outweight the costs of many failures.

          But this is only true when we are free to try and fail over and over.

          This is also one of the reasons for parretto’s law.
          Most people can not deal with the extent of failure necescary to succeed.

          Your ideology rests on magical beleifs.
          Not the “common sense” you claim.

          It is not as an example common sense that less homework will produce better learning.

          1. “ The finnish dept education web site says that on average Finn’s get 3hrs a day.
            You claimed that students perform better with less homework – again the Finnish DOE web site says that Asian countries have more homework and perform better.‘

            You’re over implying here. The Finnish web site says they average 3hrs a day, BUT that is does not mean they don’t actually do 3hrs of homework a day.

            Here’s an actual reference to what they ACTUALLY do,

            “ Lastly, there is no homework or surprise test given to students in Finland. Teachers believe that the time wasted on assignments can be used to perform hobbies, art, sports, or cooking. This can teach life lessons and have a therapeutic stress-relieving effect on children.”

            https://thelogicalindian.com/amp/education/finland-education-model-35552

            “ The truth is that there is nearly no homework in the country with one of the top education systems in the world. Finnish people believe that besides homework, …”

            https://in-finland.education/homework-in-finland-school/

            Their system is successful and they emphasize that in Asian countries homework is a big thing but that comes at a cost of students stressing out and often committing suicide because of the pressures to succeed. They are literally creating stressed out kids all on the notion that they MUST be learning at every free moment they have. Finland has a much better system that produces successful individuals without the immense pressures that Asian kids have.

            1. OECD actual data on Homework.
              In the US students do an actual average of about 1hr/day.
              Which is the same as most of the world.

              I doubt the Fins do 3 hrs a day.
              I doubt they do none.
              I woudl expect they are close to everyone else – 1hr/day.

              Rank Country Average Homework Time, Per Week
              1 China 13.8
              2 Russia 9.7
              3 Singapore 9.4
              4 Kazakhstan 8.8
              5 Italy 8.7
              6 Ireland 7.3
              7 Romania 7.3
              8 Estonia 6.9
              9 Lithuania 6.7
              10 Poland 6.6
              11 Spain 6.5
              12 Hungary 6.2
              13 Latvia 6.2
              14 UAE 6.2
              15 US 6.1
              16 Australia 6
              17 Hong Kong 6
              18 Croatia 5.9
              19 Macao 5.9
              20 Netherlands 5.8

            2. So you cite the logical indian – who provides mind reading of finnish teachers and this somehow Trump’s data from the Finish DOE ?

            3. I am not trying to sell Singapore.

              Just pointing out that you are full of Schiff with counter examples.

              Neither Finland nor Singapore match the US in criteria such as nobel winning scientists or other post school measures of per capita successful education.

              There is much wrong with US education – both elementary and college.

              There are even things we could learn from Europeans – I am not sure about Finnland but in Sweden and many other european countries education is either private or partially private.

              The swedes as an example have both public and private schools and both are funded by the state using something similar to vouchers.
              Parents decide where to send their kids.

              Regardless there is much wrong with US education – but before we borrow from Europe we shoudl verify we are improving not making things worse. European education – especially colleges leave alot to be desired.

            4. There is lots of information regarding stress in kids.

              YOU are causing it – the LEFT.
              Social media is a major factor.

              As is the left wing nut shift from individuals to the collective.

              Edward Hall did some excellent research into stress in social animals in the 60’s
              Crowding is stressful, Monocultures are stressful.

              Real diversity – particularly diversity of though reduces stress.
              Out colleges get ever more stressful the more ideologically homogeneous they become.

              Socialism is incredibly stressful.

      2. Do you understand that if you create a world in which failure is rewarded – if your intentions are good,
        and success is punished – because success is by defninition eveidence of mad intentions, that world MUST decay into poverty ?”

        Nope. Success isn’t punished. But even in this society failure IS rewarded. That culture is especially true in the corporate world. But that’s still beside the point. This course is NOT about rewarding failure. It’s about recognizing that not everything is about constantly adding more and more to your plate when it’s already full. The need to be filling every moment of idle time with more things to be productive ignores the need to rest, put aside the “work” and “pressures” of schoolwork, work, and other issues IS important. Seeing it as a weakness or a “lefty” idea is an inability to recognize that it IS a problem not everyone knows how to handle. Getting new ideas on how to do that or even a new perspective IS part of what college is about.

        1. It is self evidently true that so long as standard of living rises, success is being rewarded sufficiently and failure punished.

          The course is not about rewarding success.

          We reward success.
          We do not reward failure.
          We do not reward getting by.
          We do not reward people for not being drug addicts or rapists. or murderers

          College credit is a reward for accomplishment leading to competence in a specific field.
          It is for actual success, not for failure avoidance, or just getting through the day.

          1. “ We reward success.
            We do not reward failure.
            We do not reward getting by.
            We do not reward people for not being drug addicts or rapists. or murderers”

            There’s your problem. You think this is about rewarding failure. It’s not. You’re still not grasping the concept about the course. It has NOTHING to do with failure. It has to do with an issue that was observed among students in that they are not really utilizing or realizing what downtime really is about and many students acknowledge that as an issue.

            There are courses on how to manage time more effectively, courses on being more efficient with school work or how to do certain things that make you more productive. This course about “doing nothing” is nothing more than just another one of those courses that allow students to learn to utilize their downtime or free time in the most effective way that benefits their ability to handle their heavy course work.

            This is NOT about being lazy or rewarding failure. It’s about recognizing early on the benefits of balancing work-life issues without just relying on your phone or doing MORE work when “doing nothing” is actually a more effective way to be more productive in the end. The last thing you need is burned out and stressed out students suffering mental and health issues long before they join the workforce. it would give them an edge in being better prepared to handle the rigors of life outside college or university when they learn how to have real downtime. This shouldn’t be controversial at all. Especially in this society where we have the most productive workers in the world, and that comes at a very high price in mental and physical health.

            1. “There’s your problem. You think this is about rewarding failure.”
              Nope, I do not care what it is. Only what it is not.
              It is not anything that justifies receiving credit.
              Which YOU do not grasp.

              “You’re still not grasping the concept about the course.”
              I do not care what the concept is.
              What I care is that you are rewarding conduct (or non-conduct) that is NOT earning merit.

              All your arguments about what benefits MIGHT come from this course – ones you have NOT actually proven and are mostly dubious,
              are irrelevant. I do not care if this fake course hypothetically results in some positive benefit for the student.

              “It has to do with an issue that was observed among students”
              If a teacher observes that most students have genital warts – can they get credit for getting Treatment for Herpes ?

              You keep using vague language – because being specific destroys your argument.

              ” in that they are not really utilizing or realizing what downtime really is about and many students acknowledge that as an issue.”
              Don’t care and not relevant.

              “There are courses on how to manage time more effectively, courses on being more efficient with school work or how to do certain things that make you more productive.”
              Not for credit at any college I ever attended.

              You keep operating under this delusion that anything that MIGHT improve a students life should receive credit towards a degree.

              The answer is NO!.

            2. Beat that straw man.

              First, I understand your claims.
              They are WRONG.
              They are also Irrelevant.

              Everything that you think improves a students life is not entitled to college credit.

            3. I would further note that like typical leftists you presume that because you like the way something sounds – that it works.

              You made claims about school in finland – they were both wrong and even according to real world data do not work even if you were not wrong.

        2. You keep making arguments that whether they are true or not – are not relevant.

          If you are an addict – go to AA or NA or seek help.

          If you have ADHD – seek help
          if you have Dyslexia – seek help.

          But you get college credit for accomplishing the requirements for the degree, and by extension for the jobs the degree qualifies you for.
          Not for addressing issues that might make accomplishing those requirements easier.

          If as you claim this down time has value – then the reward will be for the improved performance.

          By rewarding the downtime itself you are ASSUMING that there is a benefit rather than rewarding the actual accomplishment.

          1. “ If as you claim this down time has value – then the reward will be for the improved performance.

            By rewarding the downtime itself you are ASSUMING that there is a benefit rather than rewarding the actual accomplishment.”

            There IS no assumption here. There are literally thousands of studies supporting this. It’s especially evident in Europe where it has been long recognized as highly beneficial.

            You are making it about pure performance and outcomes. This is showing that there is more to it than the simplistic black and white goals you are imposing it s should be. You view this a rewarding failure and that tells me you are viewing this from the point of view of a workaholic who can’t understand why would anyone see “doing nothing” as beneficial. Success is not always about working the longest hours or the most without taking a break. The need to be full on working 60- 80 hours a week to prove just how productive and successful you are is self defeating in many ways. Increased poor health, less time for family, and actually enjoying life are put on the back burner indefinitely. It has a very heavy price and most learn pretty late that this isn’t always the best thing to do.

            Not everyone related to success requires that every waking moment be filled with sometime to be done in order to not be seen as “lazy’ or a “failure”

            1. No there are not litterally thousands of valid studies support this – or pretty much any of the wacky left wing nut claims you make.

              You made this bogus claim regarding Finland – Finnish students have about 3hrs of homework per day according to the Finish DOE web site.
              That is more than I averaged in elementary and HS. The website claims this reduced norm – as compared to 6hrs results in better performance.
              But acknowledges that Asian countries with 6hrs or more homework out perform them.

            2. Citing Europe generally is citing failure.
              European improvement in standard of living is about 1% lower than the US and has been for a long time.
              The european Standard of living is 20%-50% lower than the US.

              The US has more than 50% of the top 100 universities in the world.
              The US has 350M people – Europe has 540M, the world has 8B.

              EU GDP 2022 is expected to be about 16T that is below 30K/person
              US 2022 GDP is forecast at 22T that is 62K/person.

            3. “You are making it about pure performance and outcomes. ”
              Yes, and no.

              Do you want to go to a romantic dinner with your wife ?
              Do you want to go to the theater ? a ball game ?
              Do you want the free time to walk in the woods ?

              Every non-economic quality of life factor in existence requires economic performance to achieve.

              Under Biden the average american family has lost about $500/month.
              That is dinner out and a movie with your spouse once a week.

              “This is showing that there is more to it than the simplistic black and white goals you are imposing it s should be.”
              What it shows is that you have no understanding of the maslow’s hierarchy of needs.

              What you call my black and White performance goals are the means to acheive higher order wants and needs.

              “You view this a rewarding failure and that tells me you are viewing this from the point of view of a workaholic”
              Absolute rubbish.
              Rising standard of living is producing more of what humans value with less human effort.

              Please reread the part about LESS HUMAN EFFORT.
              If you want to be a workaholic – fine.
              But economic efficiency does not mean working more or harder.
              It actually means working LESS while producing more.

              “who can’t understand why would anyone see “doing nothing” as beneficial.”
              Again beat that straw man to death.

              This is not about what I understand. You continue to argue as if it is about forcing me to accept your values.
              It is not. Your values are self evidently poor, You demostrate that with every post on any subject here.
              But that is not the question

              Everything YOU think has a beneficial effect is not entitled to a reward.

              The reward for beating an addiction – is beating the addiction. Not having that demon destroy your life.

              College credit is not for everything that might make you a better person.

              “Success is not always about working the longest hours or the most without taking a break. The need to be full on working 60- 80 hours a week to prove just how productive and successful you are is self defeating in many ways.”
              Keep beating that straw man to death.

              “Increased poor health, less time for family, and actually enjoying life are put on the back burner indefinitely. It has a very heavy price and most learn pretty late that this isn’t always the best thing to do.”
              Pummel away at that straw man.

              “Not everyone related to success requires that every waking moment be filled with sometime to be done in order to not be seen as “lazy’ or a “failure””
              Beat the stuffing out of that straw man.

      1. People not being able to put down their phones is a real issue. It’s no different than any other addiction and there are plenty of studies showing that.

        You could say the same thing about work. If you can’t put down your phone for an hour you don’t belong in the workforce, right?

    5. If these people aren’t smart enough to put their damn phones down and get on with their studies, they don’t deserve the privilege of attending university. If their imaginations and experiences are so lacking that they can’t understand the REAL stress of children working for pennies on the streets of every developing nation and people literally starving due to lack of resources and opportunity around the world, all the ‘feelgood’ classes in the world will not help them overcome their own ‘stresses’. Stop wasting your sympathies on these indulged/self indulgent wasters.

      1. Horatio,

        “ If these people aren’t smart enough to put their damn phones down and get on with their studies, they don’t deserve the privilege of attending university.”

        Again this is purely a BS excuse and a failure to read for comprehension on just what this course is really about.

        This is not just about students not being able to put their phones down. This is about students who never learned or understand what it real downtime means and why it can be beneficial to just simply “do nothing”.

        Kids these days don’t really get any downtime. The moment they start elementary school they are already overwhelmed with homework and constant extracurricular activities their parents keep putting them into so they are “more productive with their free time”. This goes on well into high school with the expectation of filing their day with something to do all the time. Especially by parents’ who feel they need it have every moment of free time filled with an activity because just sitting idle is somehow a bad thing. Kids are already under enormous pressure to stay busy with something and that is on top of school work. So in many ways they never really learn how to have real downtime and wind down from those everyday pressures and most do so by burying themselves into their phones which is everyone knows is not healthy.

  9. Finally someone has taken a step to improve the efficiency of the education process. Now, university administrators should review their entire education process and fully streamline it. Make it a 1 stop experience – student chooses courses, brings tuition check for courses selected, upon receipt of payment student is issued diploma for his or her chosen field. In and out in 1 day. Saving university and students peripheral costs of actually attending classes. A win-win for both Universities and students.

  10. American education is an unconstitutional, communist redistribution of wealth program conducted for the benefit of communist teachers unions and communist professors unions.

    Congress has no enumerated power to regulate education, or tax for or fund the unconstitutional Department of Education, the legislation establishing which must be struck down by the Supreme Court through immediate Judicial Review, as the Supreme Court recently struck down unconstitutional Roe v. Wade retroactively.

    Teachers/professors unions must be decertified and strikers fired.

    Lower education is private and locally contracted by elected local officials.

    Higher education is private.
    ______________________

    JUDICIAL REVIEW IN THE UNITED STATES

    The doctrine of judicial review holds that the courts are vested with the authority to determine the legitimacy of the acts of the executive and the legislative branches of government.

    – DOJ, Office of Justice Programs
    ___________________________

    Marbury v. Madison

    The U.S. Supreme Court case Marbury v. Madison (1803) established the principle of judicial review—the power of the federal courts to declare legislative and executive acts unconstitutional. The unanimous opinion was written by Chief Justice John Marshall.

    – Library of Congress

  11. Seems the biggest mystery is why Lawrence University would allow this. Dr. Kassor’s syllabus is literally the junk food of education.

  12. I have a big problem with a class that costs the students (or parents) costly tuition and fees to do or produce nothing. Is that the point? I would love to see the self study that the dean’s office must provide the accreditation team when they are due for their sight visit.

    This would be like a carpenter cutting without measuring or a physician prescribing without an exam, a pilot flying without a flight plan.

    They are signing up for study hall. Is this the class that the taxpayers will pay for?

  13. Isn’t this just an extension of the free tuition, free food, free healthcare, free housing…free, free, free that these ignorant pseudo-socialists have been indoctrinated to expect? Now they want free acclamation of their lives without virtue of any effort. MY, my my, aren’t they the most special little creatures – bless their hearts. Now just who wants to leave this great nation in the hands of such human flotsam?

  14. Locally physical education courses meet twice a week for one credit pass/fail. It is only required to attend, not necessarily to participate. Even so, only a small proportion of undergraduates enroll.

  15. OT:

    Federal Judge allows Missouri and Louisiana Attorney Generals to depose Dr. Anthony Fauci, former White House Press Secretary Jennifer Psaki, FBI Supervisory Special Agent Elvis Chan, and other Biden officials in social media censorship case regarding COVID.

    I hope Professor Turley discusses this ruling

    https://ago.mo.gov/docs/default-source/press-releases/doc-90—order-regarding-witness-depositions.pdf

    UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT WESTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA MONROE DIVISION

    STATE OF MISSOURI ET AL
    VERSUS
    JOSEPH R BIDEN JR ET AL

    CASE NO. 3:22-CV-01213

    MEMORANDUM ORDER REGARDING WITNESS DEPOSITIONS

    IT IS ORDERED that to the extent that Plaintiffs move to depose the following parties, the request is GRANTED: NIAID Director and White House Chief Medical Advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci; Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of White House Digital Strategy Rob Flaherty OR former White House Senior COVID-19 Advisory Andrew Slavitt; former White House Press Secretary Jennifer Psaki; FBI Supervisory Special Agent Elvis Chan; CISA Director Jen Easterly OR CISA official Lauren Protentis; Surgeon General Vivek Murthy; CDC Chief of the Digital Media Branch Carol Crawford; and Acting Coordinator of the State Department’s Global Engagement Center Daniel Kimmage.

    MONROE, LOUISIANA, this 21st day of October 2022.

    Terry A. Doughty
    United States District Judge

  16. What does education have to do with it? The expectation is that life is equitable, inclusive, and socially progressive. All’s fair in lust and abortion.

Leave a Reply