On Saturday, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) issued a surprising correction after claiming for a week that Algerian boxer Imane Khelif and Taiwan’s Lin Yu-Ting were actually born women and have Differences in Sexual Development (DSD), a range of rare conditions in which a person’s genitalia do not necessarily match with their chromosomes or hormone levels. In this weekend’s column, I cited that IOC claim that Khelif is not a transgender athlete. Yet, there remains considerable confusion on how the IOC and the boxing governing body is framing this issue and the question of gender.
IOC chief Thomas Bach said: “We have two boxers… who were born as women, raised as women, who have passports as women, who have competed for many years as women. And this is a clear definition of a woman.”
Bach chastised critics and warned them not to “confuse the two issues,” stressing that this was not “about the transgender issue.” However, he then confused many by saying “this is not a DSD case.”
The IOC later issued a correction:
In today’s IOC – Paris 2024 press briefing, IOC President Bach said: ‘But I repeat, here, this is not a DSD case, this is about a woman taking part in a women’s competition, and I think I have explained this many times.”
What was intended was:
‘But I repeat, here, this is not a transgender case, this is about a woman taking part in a women’s competition, and I think I have explained this many times.’
The key claim of the IOC is that both boxers were “born women.” Clearly, the identification on their passports (and how they were raised) can differ from country to country.
In 2023, the International Boxing Association (IBA) President Umar Kremlev explained the IBA’s decision to disqualify Taiwan’s Lin Yu-ting and Algeria’s Imane Khelif from 2023 Women’s World Boxing Championships. While there remains confusion on the testing used by the IBA (or the reliability of those tests), it issued this statement:
“Based on DNA tests, we identified a number of athletes who tried to trick their colleagues into posing as women. According to the results of the tests, it was proved that they have XY chromosomes. Such athletes were excluded from competition.”
Various media also did their own “fact checks” with outlets like USA Today stating that the “outcries from anti-trans celebrities and politicians” were based on false claims and the boxers were born women.
NBC also cited “attacks from anti-LGBTQ+ conservatives online who claim they’re transgender.” It stressed that the IBA could not be trusted since the group was banned by the IOC. (IBA was banned for corruption and financial related issues).
Notably, buried down in the CNN report on the controversy is a line that would seem significant that “Khelif… has not said she has DSD.”
In the meantime, IOC spokesman Mark Adams has said that these determinations are left up to each sport’s international governing body because “they know their sport and their discipline the best,” Adams added that “I hope we all agree that we’re not calling for people to go back to the days of sex testing which was a terrible, terrible thing to do. This involves real people and we’re talking about real people’s lives here.”
Yet, it seems odd that such major criteria of qualification would be left up to each governing body. There should be a consistent rule across the Olympics. Yet, the Human Rights Watch maintains that gender testing violates fundamental rights to privacy and dignity.
My friend Marc Siegel, Fox medical analyst, argues that the testing side can be as simple as a hormone swab.
Media is still insisting that these are not transgender athletes. Many articles cited GLAAD and InterACT. On Sunday, GLAAD was insisting that Khelif is not transgender, but is now referring to the DSD claim as something the IOC has maintained:
Imane Khelif is a woman.
Imane Khelif is not transgender and does not identify as intersex.
Because Imane Khelif was disqualified from the 2023 International Boxing Association (IBA) championship due to an unspecified gender eligibility test, which has different eligibility criteria than the IOC, there have been unconfirmed reports that she may have a variation in her sex traits, also known as differences of sexual development (DSDs).
DSDs are a group of conditions involving genes, hormones and reproductive organs. According to the NIH, some people with DSDs are raised as female but may have sex chromosomes other than XX, or elevated testosterone levels.
Athletes with variations in their sex traits, or DSDs, are not the same as transgender athletes. Conflating the two is inaccurate.
It is not verified that Imane Khelif has a variation in sex traits or DSDs.
If you are confused, you are not alone.
Legally, there continues to be a debate on the criteria used in these competitions. However, the GLADD statements seems to suggest that there is uncertainty on the underlying facts.
Some of the confusion may be due to the use of transgender versus intersex.
There is a difference between transgender athletes and intersex athletes. Transgender refers to someone who has a gender identity that is not in alignment with their sex.
Intersex refers to someone who has reproductive anatomy or genes that align with conventional definitions of male or female, including different chromosomal profiles. ESPN explained that “an example is someone who is partially or completely insensitive to androgens, such as testosterone. They may be assigned female at birth but have XY chromosomes because of their body’s physiological insensitivity to androgens.”
The athletes defending these two boxers have supported the claim that they are intersex athletes who were born female but have chromosomal differences.
What is most striking about the boxing controversy is that there appears little agreement on the underlying facts and testing. It is not even clear what Khelif has claimed in the past on these issues. That seems curiously undefined and irregular for a classification criteria. That was brought home by the confusion of Bach himself in warning against confusion on the issues.
On Saturday, Khelif defeated another female contestant, Hungary’s Anna Luca Hamori and Taiwan fighter Lin Yu-Ting also won the day before to advance to the semi-finals.
We do not know the actual facts here – because IOC is being disengenuous – i.e. being deliberately deceptive.
It is entirely irrelevant how these athletes have lived their lives.
What matters is Are these biological XX women. Are they doping, and finally do they have a genetic anomaly that has provided them male levels of steroids.
The later may not be relevant in non-contact sports. But it is critical in all contact sports.
* Senator Keeley
I feel insane
“The Birdcage”
@John Say
They really are. So what’s new? The modern left are *global* elites, and they all get the memos. The best thing Trump could do for us would be to get us the heck out of the web of the WEF, the UN, the WHO et. al., and I hope he does. A lot of people will have a temper tantrum, but that is also not new. The worst thing possible for this country would be, ‘to do what Europe is doing.’, as so many in the American left keep advocating like little fools. There is a reason this country was founded in the first place; in their privilege they seem to have forgotten that. 🤷🏻♂️
While I agree – all of these are choices.
In a different post I pointed out that there is absolutely nothing “wrong” about allowing MTF trans to compete in “women’s” sports.
But if we chose that – all athletes in women’s sports will quickly be MTF trans. Is that what we want ?
I would note that goes beyond sport to everything where we have sex distinctions.
Womens sports, Womens colleges, Wopmens social groups, Womens restrooms, Title XII, all law regarding discrimination against women.
If you decide – and ultimately it just a decision, that all set asides for women must allow MTF Trans – then MTF TRans will completely dominate the world of women. They will be the atheletes, they will break the glass ceiling. They will be nearly all “female” CEO’s.
There absolutely is such a thing as objective bioiogy. But there is no such thing as objectively correct sex preferences.
Ultimately this boils down to “fairness” and what is fair is NEVER objective. Life is not fair.
Whern we make rules/laws about “fairness” – we are inherently engaged in a subjective and norm driven process.
The essence of sport is evenly matched competition. That is why we group sporting events by ability and skill level. By age. By biological sex. To do otherwise is to destroy the essence of competition. In this case to risk the destruction of women’s boxing.
Did you see that boxer’s biceps? Most men would have a tough time developing arms like that. Compare them against biological females, even female boxers. There is clearly a massive difference in size and strength. But OK, let’s keep an open mind, maybe we have an extreme outlier.
I spent some time trying to get a handle on the underlying facts. They shouldn’t be all that complicated. Nothing more complicated than the IOC, or a good science journalist could clearly articulate. If they wanted to.
But to use the boxing analogy, the IOC and mainstream media did their best ducking and weaving to obscure the facts. More than anything else, the explanations read more like argumentative essays defending the IOC’s position. The best, and most credible, information I could find was that the boxer is a biological male with XY chromosomes but differences in aspects of his physical development but still provide advantages in size an strength.
Credibility is earned. Another boxing body clearly reached a different conclusion than the IOC. If the IOC and the media want to earn our trust, they bear the burden or stating clearly – and proudly – what they did and why. To do otherwise is to destroy our faith in the essence of sporting competition. And to destroy sport itself.
What is highly disturbing is that the IOC is obfuscating rather than clarifying.
There is a real issue here – that the IOC and sports generally are ducking.
There is little doubt that genetic factors can create an advantage for one person over another.
Pretty much every single athelete competing in the olymnpics has some genetic advantage that ordinary people do not.
These are the best of the best in terms of genertic advantage and THEN they are trained to gain every single further miniscule advantage possible.
All of this is to be expected.
I can not make heads or tails of what the IOC is saying about these atheletes. I do not care how they identify or how they were raised.
I care whether they are bviological males or biological females.
Purportedly they are not intersex – regardless Sport is going to have to figure out how to deal with actually intersexx atheletes if there are any.
I am not suree what the IOC calls sex testing – or why it is inherently bad. DNA is relevant – hormones are relevant.
We do not want athletes being dosed with sex steroids (sex hormones) regardless of their sex – PERIOD.
If there atheletes are XCY males – they should not be competing as females PERIOD. Even if there current hormone levels are consistgent with those of females, they have had a biological advantage throughout their lives that means they should be competing with men.
Conversely if their hormone levels are consistent with men – regardless of their genetics – they should not be competing with women.
If we are going to have women’s sport AT ALL it should be exclusively for genetic women who are not gaining advantage through the use of steroids.
The alternative is to eliminate women’s sport entirely and have everyone compete together.
This is NOT about how these athletes were raised, it is not about how they identify.
Outside of hollywood where reality is suspended and we pretend that fit women can beat the crap out of dozens of larger men in female lead action movies, in the real world a mediocre biological male is more physically able then the cream of the crop of women. Worse still in sports like boxing – pitting biological men against even the fittest women is DANGEROUS.
I do not care about the two atheletes in question. This MAY not be about doping or cheating. It is not about how these atheletes have identified.
It is not about DSD or Transgender or intersex.
It is about safe honest and fair competition.
Through sport in general – we MUST tolerate a wide ranger of advantages from genetics – no one arrives at teh olyumbics without some significant genetic advantages.
But unless we are going to eliminate women’s sport entirely – it MUST be restricted to biological women who are not doping.
In SPECIFIC sports such as boxing – it is reasonable to FURTHER restrict it to biological women who through some natural genetic advantage have male levels of steroids. It is one thing to say an XX women with a genetic/hormonal advantage can compete in the Discus against women that is merely nature being unfair – which nature always is. It is entirely different for contact sports where it is DANGEROUS.
* LORETTA
How about “natural born” female. Natural born is without surgery or doping. Passes the eye test and DNA is a detailed fingerprint. No one else has yours.
Sometimes you can’t get what you want.
Aside from the fact that the IOC is being deceptive – we can make the criteria whatever we want them to be.
But the criteria we choose will have consequences. If you allow MTF Trans in women’s sports – there will be no XX women in womens spoorts. If you allow people with significant natural or artificial advantages – such as doping – those will dominate.
There is no objectively correct answer – but the choices we make have consequences.
The increase in MTF women in women’s sports is resulting in a signifanct increase in injuries. It will eventually result in deaths, until all XX women are driven from women’s sports.
Is that what we want ?
We do not know what is true of these two boxers – and IOC is being evasive.
What we do know is that they are way out of the league of even the top 1% of genetically favored women.
Is that because they are intersex ? Because they are Trans ? Because they are doping ?
Or is it just a natural genetic anomaly ?
In any of the above cases we can choose to allow them to compete – or not. The decision we make will go beyond these 2 boxers.
*SENATOR KEELEY
Back on planet earth plain XX and XY were used. This solar system, what do you call it, may do something else.
Does this universe have a name? The Snickers universe I suppose.
So, the IOC can’t come up with a satisfactory definition of “woman”, and you MAGA mavens want to criticize Justice Ketanji Jackson for demurring on the question asked by the Home-Ec major from Tennessee, who was trying to set her up for some issue down the road. If Justice Jackson had provided a definition of “woman”, and then some case came before the Court involving a challenge to someone’s eligibility for sports or something else based on their gender, Republicans would use that definition against Justice Jackson, who saw their agenda and short-circuited it. This entire flap proves that defining “woman” isn’t cut and dried.
The standards institute annouched that we no longer have male or female threads, they are now know as male-idenified or female-identified threads, unless they’re cross threaded in which case they get to be either.
“[I]n American democracy at the time of its birth, all individual human rights were granted on the ground that man is God’s creature. . . The West has finally achieved the rights of man, and even to excess, but man’s sense of responsibility to God and society has grown dimmer and dimmer.”
— Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Commencement Address at Harvard University
I was going to offer you the solutions for cancer, war, starvation, etc, but you were mean to me, so I burned it all in the fireplace.
You have no solutions.
From law to politics to Olympic sexuality — I can no longer ascertain what Turley’s field of expertise is supposed to be. or whether he’s even supposed to have a field of expertise and is now assumed to be a planet-roaming gadfly commenting on anything or everything, as the mood strikes him and as buttressed by his loyal trolls who treat his every utterance as holy script.
We know the extent of the things you can not ascertain, basically anything except stoking your narcissism.
not narcissism, but rejection, so he or she feels compelled to strike out. Maybe a writer who was rejected in favor of one of JT’s articles? Maybe rejected by a lawyer for a date? Maybe lost in court? SOMETHING is driving this person to this blog everyday, despite declaring that he or she hates it.
So ? tens of millions of People read his posts.
Normally a birth certificate is sufficient to assign gender but not always.
In the Dominican Republic there is a small population among whom some boys appear to be girls at birth and are raised as the girls they appear to be but at puberty male genitalia emerge and they continue life as the boys they actually are.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981
In cases like this a piece of paper like a birth certificate does not resolve the questions of sex or gender. I believe there is a similar group in Africa.
What does resolve the issue are the chromosomes, XX for female and XY for Male. There are cases for issues even with this, like the rare Kleinfelter Syndrome XXY, but abnormalities and genetic diseases should not be part of the fundamental baseline, XX is female and XY is male.
The second issue is testosterone. If a female, XX, dopes herself with testosterone it confers an advantage in athletic competition and she should be disqualified.
If a female has an inherent biological anomaly that produces excess testosterone it also confers an advantage and she should probably be disqualified.
If the intention at an athletic competition is to have baseline females compete while putting their native ability and their years of disciplined training and hard work on the table, and nothing more, then it is clear that a chromosome test combined with a test for testosterone and any performance enhancing drugs is essential.
Otherwise after their years of hard work and training you might as well put these women into the ring with a gorilla. It is delusional and will get some of these women permanently injured or killed at some point.
As for those who carry the delusion to the point of declaring a transgender no different from any other person of the gender they transition to, I have two questions:
1. Why are male to female transgenders breaking so many records and winning so often in female sports?
2. Why are no female to male transgenders winning anything in male sports?
“What does resolve the issue are the chromosomes, XX for female and XY for Male. ”
Young: That is too difficult for the ignorant race hustlers and leftists to manage. They do not have the intellectual ability to use the Western notion of proof. In other words, is the theory reproducible?
Instead of proof, they rely on feelings and fleeting ideas. They rely on the practices of the Nazis and Stalin, only to reject them later when told to do so, but then they willingly replace those ideas with new ones that are essentially the same as the old.
* LORETTA
The definition of woman is being reset. XY is male. The reset is: you are a woman, Lia, but not for sports purposes. Any admission or recognition by all people is a gain. All people will eventually concede to be rid of the problem. Same for marriage reset.
Normative reset by social psychology. Durkheim but don’t hold my feet to the fire. Intersex and trans can also be subject to suicide and delusional so there’s the guilt coercion.
My unlearned opinion. There are people , very sophisticated people pushing this agenda.
S. Meyer–
I think you are right. Too much of our culture, particularly the education racket, has abandoned the Western Canon of logic and proof and the idea that behind our beliefs and biases there is an actual reality that will ultimately reckon with us even if we are not inclined to reckon with it.
As great a loss is the loss of skepticism, the notion that what you believe and what everyone else believes may not be entirely true. To approximate Feynman’s comment: However beautiful your theory may be if it doesn’t account for the facts you need to look for something better. I am reminded of Kepler’s search for a solution to the problem of orbits. He hit upon a truly beautiful model with layered regular solids that resolved the problems of the Ptolemaic system, the Copernican system, and Galileo’s view. But it did not describe the observed orbit of Mars. Well it did to the extent that previous observations described it but there were the newer and more precise observations of Tycho Brahe. With regret Kepler set his truly gorgeous model aside saying if God sent such an observer as Tycho we must use him. Then Kepler moved on to discover elliptical orbits, a wonderful achievement.
Maybe it would help if our schools spent more time, a lot of it, teaching the history of science and philosophy and more hands-on science. And maybe not.
Excellent interview:
https://youtu.be/SDdyaFX_JMA?si=G65IbLJnP80G8qwS
Sometimes I think only Israel stands for civilization as we have known it. Europe is a mess and the US government and media are sinking.
Israel is worse today, for more unfaithful, than when they turned their backs on YHWH after crossing the Red Sea. Roughly 21% of people in Israel are Orthodox Jews. In fact, the only reason Jews were supposed to have a land for themselves is because of the covenant YHWH established with Jews. Since most people in Israel today have “rejected the divine origins of the Torah and denied the obligatory nature of Jewish ritual observance”, their demand to possess the land of Israel is moot.
I have known many Orthodox Jews (physicians and their families). Very impressive people. Reformed Jews? About as lackluster as most Roman Catholics, a source of tremendous shame.
Approximately 10 percent of American Jews identify as Orthodox according to Pew — fewer than Reform and Conservative— however they tend on average to be younger and have larger families, which has led some to conclude that they will represent a growing share of the American Jewish community in the years to come. Approximately 21 percent of Israeli Jews are Orthodox, according to a 2016 Pew study, though non-Orthodox religious movements are less widespread in Israel than they are in the United States.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/orthodox-judaism/
@Estovir
Thoughtful comment but my experience leads to a slightly different view while allowing you may have the better of it.
Many of our friends, many physicians, are of Jewish ancestry, more than I realized until one of them died of Covid and we went to his funeral service which was conducted by a rabbi. Another friend, also a doctor, married a Jewish girl although he is of Asian descent. I think they were both fortunate in their choice. Though both are Americans, the wedding was half Jewish and half Japanese and was spectacular; what a way to begin! Wonderful! Later he was one of the first responders to 9/11 and came close to being killed when the tower near where he was treating injured came down. Couldn’t be prouder to call him a friend.
Though our friends are so thoroughly secular that I didn’t know they were Jewish until a chance remark or at the funerals [two of them now] I saw them involved with the ceremony, I could over years detect a strong core sense that they were still Jews and still saw Jewish culture as an essential part of who they were.
I think I saw them as I see myself, fundamentally Christian although lacking many of the core beliefs while keeping the core values. I could comfortably be Jewish or Christian without changing much of anything. Both cherish life.
At the same time I take your warning, Israelis should not drift so far from God and their core identity that they jeopardize their existence. Nor should we.
” Since most people in Israel today have “rejected the divine origins of the Torah and denied the obligatory nature of Jewish ritual observance,” their demand to possess the land of Israel is moot.”
@Estovir: Why? If you use the Torah as the sole link to the land, then just one remaining Jew would inherit it. (A Jew is defined as one born to a Jewish mother or who went through the ritual conversion.)
Jews have many interpretations of the Torah, which is essentially 613 rules (commandments) of life. A Jew fulfills many of them but cannot meet them all.
“their demand to possess the land of Israel is moot.”
@ S. Meyer– That statement puzzled me as well. As far as I am concerned their claim to it has roots thrust deeply into the mists of history, because they in fact do have it, and because they have the better life oriented culture, and because they are the better people. It isn’t an accident that so many of the advances in science, particularly in physics, are because of thinkers who have at least some Jewish inheritance. I have sometimes wondered if the hostility to the Jewish people doesn’t come down to simple envy. Humanity owes them a great debt but instead….
To Seth and Young,
The existence of Israel is based on a covenant with YHWH. From Genesis through whatever last book you have in your Old Testament: covenant theology is a unifying theme.
Jews historically did not have a “bible” or “old testament”, which is to say they did not have a canon (list) of official books, other than the Pentateuch / Torah. It wasn’t until the Catholic Church, in the 4th Century, convened a council, as a body of bishops that determined which books were officially inspired and hence to be included in the canon. It then that the Jews responded with their own canon. It was the Catholic Church that created the canon of the Bible, a salient point most Evangelical “fundamentalist” Christians fail to consider. Jews have a Rabbi as their “local pope”. Rabbis disagree with other Rabbis, and thus serve as a great deal of uncertainty in their practice of Judaism from group/tribe to group/tribe (Judaism was based on the 12 Tribes of Israel / 12 sons of Jacob). The Catholic Church is similar with its bishops (rabbis) and these also disagree with other bishops, as it is today. However, the centrality of the Papacy gives Catholicism certitude. Judaism lacks this centrality. Ditto for Islam. Alas, none of this really mattes in the most important thing: a personal, covenant relationship with YHWH / God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit.
As stated, Israel today has forsaken that covenant relationship given only 21% believe the divine origins of the Torah and denied the obligatory nature of Jewish ritual observance”, according to the link I provided, “myjewishlearning”. Once you break a covenant, then neither party is bound by it. All throughout the Old Testament, countless prophets are sent to warn Israel, and each and every time they reject the Prophet. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Amos…the list is long.
Covenants require performance. See:
The Covenant: A Relationship with Consequences
At Sinai, the Israelites pledged their allegiance to God and accepted the punishments that would result if they betrayed God.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-covenant-a-relationship-with-consequences/
A prominent 20th Century Jewish theologian, Richard L. Rubenstein wrote the above article. However, even he wrestled with God, and broke his covenant. He became a non-believer because he could not reconcile the Holocaust with the existence of YHWH’s covenant.
Catholics are worse. I’m not even sure 21% of Catholics in the world are as observant as Orthodox Jews in Israel, a huge sad state of affairs. I have always found the practice of Judaism, as seen in Orthodox Jews, inspiring, moving, providing permanence. The Physicians with whom I worked at Mt Sinai Medical Center in Miami Beach were towering giants. They were the best of the best when it came to physician specialists. As Jews gave up their covenant, they faltered as a people. Just like Catholics. Ditto for Christians, all 20,000 denominations and growing
While Catholics should go to Mass, should pray daily, should read Scriptures daily, should study Early Church Patristics, and of course follow Church promulgations, none of these are worth a hill of beans, if they do not have a personal relationship with Christ One of the greatest Catholic mystics, St. Catherine of Siena, known for excoriating the Pope hiding in Avignon, France, and got him to return to Italy, was illiterate. She wrote nothing. She could not even read. Her writings were written by others who listened to her dictate. Consequently, it is possible to be illiterate and ignorant but still have a personal, covenant relationship with Christ or YHWH.
Expecting people today to have a personal, covenant relationship with their Creator is asking them to give up their vices, their pills, behaviors that led to their chronic medical conditions, etc.
No Covenant relationship leads to death of the soul.
Sam, below, wants us to believe “fabulous wealth” and “individualism” are all that matter . Well, that’s expected of a post-modernist atheist who has more in common with Friedrich Nietzsche, Jean-Paul Sartre, and Michel Foucault. Giant intellectuals like Saint Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, John Henry Newman, Edith Stein, Peter Kreeft, Jesuits Avery Dulles, John Courtney Murray, and Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and an endless list of towering canon of men and women of reason.
“Jews historically did not have a “bible” or “old testament”, which is to say they did not have a canon (list) of official books, other than the Pentateuch / Torah. It wasn’t until the Catholic Church, in the 4th Century, convened a council, as a body of bishops that determined which books were officially inspired and hence to be included in the canon. It then that the Jews responded with their own canon”
Estovir, did you forget about the Ketuvim and Nevi’im, which were “canonized” (your word) around the 4th to 5th century BCE? The Oral Torah, repeated throughout Jewish history, remained unchanged until it was written in the Talmud.
The Complete Jewish Bible contains the Torah (The Pentateuch)
Bereshit – Genesis
Shemot -Exodus
Vayikra – Leviticus
Bamidbar – Numbers
Devarim -Deuteronomy
The Complete Tenakh contains the above and,
Nevi’im (Prophets)
*Yehoshua -Joshua
*Shoftim – Judges
*Shmuel 1 – Samuel 1
*Shmuel2- Samuel 2
…and more
Ketuvim (Scriptures)
*Tehillim – Psalms
*Mishlei -Proverbs
*Iyov – Job
*Shir Hashirim -Song of Songs
*Rut -Ruth
*Divrei Hayamim 1 – Chronicles 1
…and more
” Jews have a Rabbi as their “local pope”. Rabbis disagree with other Rabbis, and thus serve as a great deal of uncertainty in their practice of Judaism from group/tribe to group/tribe (Judaism was based on the 12 Tribes of Israel / 12 sons of Jacob). The Catholic Church is similar with its bishops (rabbis) and these also disagree with other bishops, as it is today. However, the centrality of the Papacy gives Catholicism certitude. Judaism lacks this centrality. ”
Estovir, did you forget the Sanhedrin (71 members)? They were the ultimate deciders of Jewish Law and the Law in general. Disputes between local Rabbis would go up the chain until it reached the Sanhedrin.
From the Torah
“Assemble for Me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the people’s elders and officers, and you shall take them to the Tent of Meeting, and they shall stand there with you.”
Bamidbar 11:16 (Torah)
” (Judaism was based on the 12 Tribes of Israel / 12 sons of Jacob).”
Estovir, Judaism is not based on the 12 tribes. It is based on the Torah. Ten of the twelve tribes disappeared, and Jews were displaced all over the globe. The Torah remains. We learn about the twelve sons of Jacob from the Torah and other writings in the Bible 400 years before Jesus was born and from the Oral Law. Much of that is incorporated into Western law and philosophy.
“As stated, Israel today has forsaken that covenant relationship given only 21% believe the divine origins of the Torah and denied the obligatory nature of Jewish ritual observance”, according to the link I provided, “myjewishlearning”. Once you break a covenant, then neither party is bound by it.
Estovir, that is an interesting point of view, but if every time the Jews failed to uphold the Law, the Covenent between the Jews and G-d broke, the Covenent would have ceased to exist almost from the beginning.
God punished the Jews many times for their failures, and they became better for it.
“then neither party is bound by it.”
That takes us back to Cain and Abel. “I am not my brother’s keeper.” Though we have some responsibilities to each other, we cannot be directly responsible for the actions of others. There is a difference between a contract and The Covenant.
However, the thoughts you have create an ache in my soul. I worry about America and look at the young, constantly thinking that the young of today are nothing like the Greatest Generation. I worried about the Israeli youth similarly but saw that my fears were wrongly placed. The Israeli children of today are fighting a G-d-less enemy like their grandparents did when Israel was founded. Whether they are religious or not, they are Jews and deserve to keep Israel free and independent.
“All throughout the Old Testament, countless prophets are sent to warn Israel, and each and every time they reject the Prophet. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Amos…the list is long.”
Yes, and those Prophets were part of the Jewish Bible, as mentioned earlier, around 400 years before Jesus was born. Those Prophets who led the Jewish people are significant to us today and incorporated into our culture.
The Covenant from the Torah:
“And I will place My covenant between Me and between you, and I will multiply you very greatly.” … Genesis 17:1 and beyond
“A prominent 20th Century Jewish theologian, Richard L. Rubenstein wrote the above article. However, even he wrestled with God, and broke his covenant. He became a non-believer because he could not reconcile the Holocaust with the existence of YHWH’s covenant.”
Estovir, Rabbi Jonathan Sachs had an excellent discussion of this. I will try to find it if you strongly want, but it will be a difficult quest. To summarize poorly, some of it asks whether we should ask G-d or the people and how they became that way doing such monstrous things. G-d provided us with freedom, but as you indirectly mentioned above, freedom was not always wisely used.
Another thing we should think about is all the other times Jews were killed in similar numbers or dispersed and lost. I believe well over one million died by Roman hands.
Thank you, however, for bringing that question up and for the caring behind your words. That type of caring is rarely expressed in today’s world,
You should know that my mother-in-law was in Auschwitz, and my father-in-law was comatose when the Allies arrived. My wife is not American but kisses the ground every time we return by air to the US.
” . . . that’s expected of a post-modernist . . .”
Just as socialists and communists intentionally misrepresent their opponents — so, too, do militant religionists.
It’s called being intellectually dishonest.
“Israel is worse today, for more unfaithful . . .”
Israel is a fabulously wealthy country in the middle of a desert. It is the only semi-free country in the Middle East, precisely because it is not a theocracy. Its respect for property rights and the rule of contract permits its scientists and entrepreneurs to flourish — which benefits us all.
It is a better country today precisely because it is “more unfaithful,” precisely because it is *not* a union of religion and state — i.e., precisely because it is more respectful of reason and individualism.
If you have a Y chromosome, you are not a woman and should not be allowed in women’s events.
While I agree with you. This is still actually a choice.
Whether women’s sports exist and who gets to compete has no objectively correct answer.
If we allow people with Y chromosomes to compete in women’s sports – soon enough all women’s atheletes will have Y chromosomes.
Is that what we want ?
OT BUT IMPORTANT: The reason Kamala Harris has been so aggressive and outspoken over abortion rights: because her husband got his daughter’s nanny pregnant and the baby was aborted. HE HAS NOT DENIED THIS.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/kamala-harris-s-husband-had-affair-with-the-nanny-in-previous-marriage/ar-AA1odEXM?ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&cvid=257af4e9a279494df41abb994ef54db8&ei=22
Anonymous: WHY is whatever happened (assuming it is true) IMPORTANT? Did Kamala even know him at the time? How do you know that EMHOFF “got” her to obtain an abortion, and that it was not her choice? Emhoff is NOT running for President, but if you want to go after sposes, Melania posed nude and for lesbian-themed soft core porn.
Do you want to know what is REALLY important–the canididates’ own character and behavior. Trump was found iable for sexually assaulting a woman and defaming her. He has bragged about grabbing womens’ genitalia. When the Access Hollywood tapes came out, he said “guys” would find it cool but women would be offended. He paid off a porn actress and nude model and then falsified business records to hide it, in order to influence the election in which he wanted to court Evangelical voters. That got him 34 felony convictions. He is an adjudicated fraudster. He lied about losing in 2020 to rile up his fans to attck the Capitol.* He insults women: “bird brain Nikki”, “crooked HIllary”, “crooked Nancy”, Kamala “decided to be black” after portraying herself as Indian.
You can literally smell the Republican desperation here. The problem is that Trump is so dirty compared to Kamala Harris that they have to try to dig up dirt on her husband. Here’s what Snopes said about allegations that Trump got women to abort his children:
“During a 2016 interview, Trump dodged answering a question about whether he had ever been involved with anyone who had an abortion:
Given [Trump’s] draconian comment [about] sending women back to back alleys, I had to ask: When he was a swinging bachelor in Manhattan, was he ever involved with anyone who had an abortion?
“Such an interesting question,” he said. “So what’s your next question?”” SO–Trump didn’t deny it.
*on this note, it’s really rich that Trump, in a weekend rally, said that those who deface memorials should receive at least a 10 year prison sentence. He blathered on and on about how difficult it is to remove paint from limestone. Consider this: his deluded fans who not only assaulted police officers and broke windows and doors to get into the Capitol with the aim of trying to prevent Joe Biden from taking office, they also urinated and defecated in the building, defaced the John Lewis memorial, stole computers and other items? Trump calls these people “patriots” and plans to pardon them, even the ones who pleaded guilty and/or were found guilty by juries.
Upon further reflection: Kamala did not know Doug at the time of this alleged incident. AND, if you want to talk about the immorality of extra-marital affairs–start with DJT–he cheated on ALL of this wives. Baby Tiffany even attended her parents’ wedding. How about the irresponsibility of failing to use birth control in an extra-marital affair? According to both Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougall, Trump refused to use a condom during sex with them, so not only was pregnancy a risk, but also STDs. In interviews, Stormy pointed out that Wicked Entertainment, for whom she worked, required the use of condoms in their adult films.
Do you really want to get into Kamala’s sex life too? Just stop with the smears on Trump’s sexual escapades.
We know Trump’s policies work for the American people.
We know there was peace and stability in the Middle East during Trump’s first term.
We know there is WAR and total CHAOS in the world under Biden’s shameful vacuum of leadership.
We know Biden and Kamala’s OPEN BORDER and MIGRANT CRIME is hurting everyone, including women and children. Everyone is less safe in Biden’s America.
We know Biden/Kamala’s ECONOMY is hurting everyone, including women and children. Everyone is struggling in Biden’s America. Except the rich.
We know Biden/Kamala’s change to TITLE IX is endangering and harming women and girls. Women’s sports are being destroyed by Biden’s policies. Women and girls are being harmed in Biden’s America.
Tell us what are Kamala’s POLICY POSITIONS? Kamala’s foreign policy plans? What is she prepared to DO on day one in the Oval Office for which she it totally OUT OF HER LEAGUE to be occupying as Commander in Chief?
No one knows.
And God help us all if she gets in.
He knows… https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13691827/DNC-staffer-harris-team-filmed-undercover-interview.html?ico=topics_pagination_desktop
“Trump’s policies work for the American people “? Are you joking? He put us into a deep recession, and economists say his stupid tariffs will cause inflation and cost the average American family more than $2,500 extra per year. The tax breaks for the wealthy will drive up the national debt and Republicans have submitted a budget that includes cuts to Social Security and Medicare.
The Middle East hasn’t been at peace for decades — there just wasn’t a hot war or the genocide that Netanyahu is doing now—and where the hell does Trump get off trying to pretend that anything that happens in the Middle East has anything to do with him ? It doesn’t. In the dream world Trump lives in, he’s the most powerful person on earth-feared and respected—instead of the bloated liar and convicted criminal that foreign leaders mock.
“Everyone is struggling in Biden’s America “? Do you just make things up or did you get this from the convicted criminal’s campaign? The American economy is the envy of the world. Biden fixed the mess Trump created, got unemployment to a 50-year low, got manufacturing to return to America, inflation is coming down and was caused by Trump’s stupid policies and lack of knowledge about economics. Real family wealth is outpacing inflation, prescription drug prices are coming down and Kamala’s agenda will mostly benefit the middle class, instead of polluters and wealthy people who don’t want to pay their fair share of taxes.
Did Kamala ever brag about fondling men’s’ privates, sexually assaulting anyone, pay off illicit sexual partners and falsify records to cover up this conduct? Trying to slut- shame her will backfire.
If you want to know about her policies, consult her campaign website. Do you think that the fat, bloated, spray- tanned draft dodger who calls our military “suckers and losers” commands more respect than a former District Attorney, Attorney General and US Senator who is also the Vice President?
“Did Kamala ever brag about fondling men’s’ privates, sexually assaulting anyone, pay off illicit sexual partners and falsify records to cover up this conduct?”
No, she’s done FAR worse.
“If you want to know about her policies, consult her campaign website.”
Nothing there. Maybe she’ll let us know her policy positions BEFORE the election?
Not to worry, though, the vetting of Kamala is about to begin. And it is going to be a rough ride for her.
“He put us into a deep recession”
There was a very steep economic decline as a result of lockdowns and covid.
There was no recess – the decline was enormous, it was a singel quarter and with the end of lockdows the recovery was immediate and full.
Lockdowns were a huge miustake – Trump never should have allowed them.
But he did – as did democrats and blue state governors.
Trump should be chastized for that.
And Biden and Harris hjeld accountable fro trying to bring bad covid policies back.
“economists say his stupid tariffs will cause inflation”
Any economist that says that – does not deserve to be called an economist.
“Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomena”
Milton Friedman.
ANY economist that says you can create inflation – or defaltion without altering money supply is a LIAR.
I would separately note that with few minor exceptions Biden has retained ALL of the Trump tarrifs on China.
He has dropped tarrifs on Iran, but escalated Tarrifs on Russia.
If you are stupid enought to beleive that Tarrifs cause inflation – Biden is worse than Trump.
As to the “economists” you cite – these are people you should never beleive again.
They are wronjg at an econ 101 level.
“cost the average American family more than $2,500 extra per year.”
And yeat at the end of the Trump administration the average american family had about 3500/year more in spending power.
While as over the first 3 years of the Biden admin – they have LOST 4500/year in spending power.
” The tax breaks for the wealthy will drive up the national debt and Republicans have submitted a budget that includes cuts to Social Security and Medicare.”
So false it does not need to be addressed.
Federal revenues are the highest they have been – This country has a SPENDING problem.
“The Middle East hasn’t been at peace for decades”
Correct, But the RELATIVE level of peace has been highly variable.
We had the closest thing we have had to peace int he mideast (and the world) under Trump as we have had in my lifetime.
“there just wasn’t a hot war or the genocide that Netanyahu is doing now”
Cut the genocide garbage – The US killed over 1M people in afghanistan over 9/11.
If you have not been accusing the US of genocide in Afghanistan – you have no leg to stand on with respect to Israel.
“where the hell does Trump get off trying to pretend that anything that happens in the Middle East has anything to do with him”
What is currently happening in the mideast has nothing to do with him – it has to do with Biden (and Harris).
What WILL happen in the mideast in 2025 has to do with President Trump.
“In the dream world Trump lives in, he’s the most powerful person on earth-feared and respected”
No, he is just actually not a nut job. He is capable of real negotiation, and actual problem solving.
He has an actual lifetime of ACTUALLY solving problems.
He is not a moron, trying to force the world to fit into his persepective.
And YES, the leaders of the world may not like him. They may or may not like Harris or Biden better.
But they RESPECT him.
One of the other absolutely critical features of Trump is that they TRUST him.
I know this is difficult for those of you who have been idiotically ranting about Trump lying.
But the FACT is that he keeps his promises. He kept nearly all his campaign promises – and that scares the schiff out of you.
He has made deals and everyone in those deals made out. Banks lent him billions – and despite the idiocy of judge moron in NYC they would do so again and again.
World leaders may not like Trump – but they KNOW that if he says something – they can count on it.
And that is what makes making deals possible.
He is not black one day and indian the next.
To counter Black women for Harris, Black men for Harris, White women for Harris, White dudes for Harris, and Cat Ladies for Harris. We need a….
Fellons for trump!
Rapists for trump!
Fraudsters for trump!
Tax evaders for trump!
I have no doubt, each of these three groups might bring in 2 or 3 votes…each! And perhaps as much as $10 total.
Go for it trump! They are your people and they love you!
Here’s a thought: why don’t YOU cite your sources for what you claim are facts, like I do? David Cay Johnston, who ghost wrote “The Art of the Deal” begs to differ with you about Turmp’s “negotiating skills”. Why not read his book and find out why? He has first-hand knowledge that Trump is full of BS.
The leaders of the world neither respect nor trust Trump. You claim it’s because “if he says something–they can count on it”? Really? How about this: “Mexico will p;ay to build the wall”. Or, the rhetorical question: “Who’s going to pay to build the big, beautiful wall”? That claim is emblematic of Trump–just lie, lie, lie, bluster, bloviate–and the fans will believe it, just like you believe that you “KNOW that if he says something–they can count on it”. We’re still waiting for Mexico to build us our wall. Trump will say whatever it takes to get votes. Trump is nothing but a vaudeville performer–spewing the same riff over and over again. He can’t stop attacking Obama, Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi or repeating lies. If world leaders respect him so much, why couldn’t he get them to take Russia back into the G-7? He tried to use his “charm offensive”, and it failed because world leaders see what’s there–a weak, narcissistic pathologial liar who is so emotionally immature that he cannot communicate disagreement without petty name-calling and misogynistic and racist insults. They know he is a convicted criminal, that he paid off a porn actress and nude model to help him win, that he’s facing dozens of other criminal charges, They also know that he’s nowhere near as wealthy as he pretends to be–just more bluster and lies.
There’s nothing “idiotic” about holding Trump to account for lying on financial statements and loan applications. It’s been explained over and over again that actual default on a loan is not required to prosecute Trump for misrepresenting the value of his assets to get a larger loan on better terms. Because NY is the financial capital of the world, investors expect the law to be enforced to ensure stability in the financial markets. Trump didn’t fudge a few numbers–the Judge found his lying to be “shocking to the conscience”. He tripled the size of his apartment for loan purposes and downplayed the size for property tax purposes. Because he has previously taken bankruptcy, it’s not outside the realm of possibility that he could have defaulted on those loans, too. That he didn’t is irrelevant to the core of the crime–lying, misrepresenting the value of assets. There is nothing about Trump that engenders respect.
And, Kamala Harris has never claimed to be Indian one day and black the next. Just because Trump is ignorant about her background does not change the fact that she attended a HBCU, pledged a black sorority and has always boasted about her Jamaican father, an economics professor at Stanford.
“Did Kamala ever brag about fondling men’s’ privates, sexually assaulting anyone, pay off illicit sexual partners and falsify records to cover up this conduct? Trying to slut- shame her will backfire.”
I have no idea if she did any of those things – nor do you. What I do know is that she chose to be arm candy for powerful men and hollywood celebrities. That she did so despite the fact that some of those men were married.
That she was asian when that suited and black when that suited. That she has never experienced real depreivation – though she has tried to claim that. That she though she grew up in Canada and the bay area, she sports a southern Belle accent In atlanta and other places it suits.
What I do know is that though about 1/2 of the Muck Parody add is AI generated voice, that 100% of what the AI Kamala said reeflects the real Krazy Kamala.
Trump is not trying to slut shame Harris though there are definitely some very angry black women who are.
Trump is using Kamela hereslef as a brush to paint her is inauthentic – Fake – because she is.
What I do know -0 and so do you is that Trump is incredibly perceptive about these things. It is not just that he lables people.
It is that he labels them correctly and therefore the labels STICK.
He sees who Harris is, and he is showing it to the world.
And your scared that once again – he will not prove wrong.
gig says “Upon further reflection….
what she really means, “oh oh, didn’t know that, better get on google or msnbc and look this up….
It means I looked up the article that was cited and it said she didn’t know Doug at the time of the alleged affair. BTW: Have I EVER cited MSNBC?
typical gigi and why she is not respected on this site. Anonymous wrote THREE SENTENCES on why kamala may have more than academic or legal interest in abortion. Gigi replies with 3000 words about Trump LOL!!!!!!
“Kamala did not know Doug at the time of this alleged incident.”
She does now,
Regardless – she married him.
“according to Stormy Daniels” … ROFL
“We need to know if the Biden campaign, or Kamala Harris, or Doug Emhoff, paid the nanny to keep quiet. Were there non-disclosure agreements? Were they listed as campaign expenditures? If not, then Biden, Harris and/or Emhoff should be prosecuted just as Trump has been prosecuted.” @joelpollak
Gigi – you fixate on Daniels testimony – as if it is fact. Failing to grasp it is highly dubious.
Trump is an incredibly well known Germophobe – you really think he would not have used a condom ?
There are myriads of such discrepancies in Daniels story. One of the large ones is that she approached Cohen – Not the Clinton campaign. She tried going tot eh media first – but they would not pay her enough.
She received 130K for her story. If it was True – Clinton would have paid 10 times that.
Daniels is NOT stupid. an embarrassing but fraudulent story that is not trivially disproven is most valuable to the victim.
The fact that the story is only worth 130K is strong evidence it is false.
Discussions about details of what is highly likely to be a lie – are just stupid.
I would note at the time of the payments that you think were fraudulent – the election was over. Long before Chone was fully paid – the courts and Trump released Daniels from the NDA – so why was Trump allegedly hiding the payments after the election was over ?
Trump said “When you’re famous some women let you do anything, they let you grab ’em by the p….y”
Where’s the lie? Everyone in Hollywood knows the truth of that comment. And it was locker room talk. All men understand. So do the women who let themselves be raped and assaulted by Harvey Weinstein, and others, in order to get a movie role.
Stick to policies, Gigi. It’s what people care about.
Stick to CHARACTER— people DO care about that. Trump is uniquely bad. Besides being a convicted criminal, fraudster and adjudicated responsible for sexual assault, he is a sociopath. Women don’t “let” themselves be “raped” or sexually assaulted. Ask E. Jean Carroll.
“Stick to CHARACTER— people DO care about that.”
Correct – Harris is fake. Inauthentic. Today she claims to be black – but the reality is she has not lived the black experience.
Even Don Lemon said as much 4 years ago. Kamala is an elite trying to grab her bit of Black victimhood to boost her into the WH.
To parody Biden – she is less black than he is.
This is not about chromosomes. It is as those of you on the left like to say – lived experience.
“Trump is uniquely bad.”
In what way ?
Unlike Harris he is genuine.
” Besides being a convicted criminal”
Ronald Williamson was a convicted murderer – except he did not commit the murder. He was completely innocent.
Technically Trump remains innocent – until Merchan sentences him – that will probably be delayer until after the election and then Merchan will throw the case out to avoid the embarrassment of being chastized many many many times from a fraudulent trial by the the Federal courts.
“fraudster”
Again to be reveresed.
“and adjudicated responsible for sexual assault”
Also to be reversed.
“he is a sociopath”
Possibly. 1 in 30 people are. Nearly all politicians are.
While 1/3 of criminals are all sociopaths are not criminals. Most are not. Most are successfully.
I strongly suspect Trump is not – there are plenty of people who confirm that he is the same in public as in private – that he is “genuine”
“Women don’t “let” themselves be “raped” or sexually assaulted.”
Correct, but people lie. That is one of the reasons we have statues of limitations.
Carroll is not credible.
“Ask E. Jean Carroll.” I am not sure if Carroll is a sociopath – though it is more likely that Trump. She is certainly a narcissist, and she is not credible.
Nor is that my view.
You seem to fail to grasp that every one of the manhattan trials was mirrored nationwide.
The Jury of the american people rejected the Manhattan Juries.
“All men understand. So do the women who let themselves be raped and assaulted”
I love it. What a great campaign slogan for trump. Sad thing is trump is basically going around saying sh-t like this.
And, trump attacks his own.
Conservative activist and Kemp ally Cole Muzio told the AJC, “Attacking a successful and popular governor is not only wrong, it’s politically stupid.”
That is your trump. Attacks a popular governor from a state he needs to win. I used to think trump had an IQ of 70 or so. I would be very surprised if it was greater than 25. Yes, trump is pretty close to being brain dead. He insults a room full of black people. He insults a Republican Governor. Voters that he needs to win. Who does that?
Of course! It’s only important if Donald Trump did it.
You suck, Gigi.
Kamala Harris is absolutely nothing but a barren, childless, gold digger, entirely bereft of any raison d’être.
Kamala Harris was a subpar, “WEIRD,” assistant DA.
The very FOUNDATION of “Kamala Harris” is an affair with a man who was married with children and who was nothing more than a political benefactor.
Kamala Harris didn’t achieve her way up; she slept her way up.
Kamala Harris engendered an exceptional CV; everyone agrees.
Here’s a thought: how about citing some FACTUAL SOURCE for your accusations, like I do?
“WHY is whatever happened (assuming it is true) IMPORTANT? ”
Because some people think it is important.
You do not get to run from that – because YOU have repeatedly relied on that.
You have correctly argued that Trump’s choice to hire Cohen reflects on Trump – even though Trump did not particpate in or know of any of the illegal activities that Cohen engaged in.
The same is True of Harris – She married Emhoffe – that is a much more significant decision than hiring him as a lawyer.
Did she KNOW all these things ? Maybe not – but either she knew what kind of person he is, or she does not have the judgement to be president.
Melania did pose nude, and we can all decide how that reflects on Trump. I do not think it is hurting him.
We do the same with children. Biden’s refusal to acknowledged his grand child reflects on him.
The fact that his children are all a complete mess – drag addicts who are still dependent on daddy well into their 50’s, who make bad choices all over the place – that reflects on Biden.
In the real world – sometimes parents do everything right and their children still end up a mess.
And sometimes parents do everything wrong and their children still become exemplar.
Regardless we still judge parents by their children. By that Standard Trump has done very well.
You need not like his children or their politics. You can claim they were born with a silver spoon as were Biden’s.
But unlikely Biden’s Trump’s are not using that silver spoon to take crack.
They started with great advantages and they have succeeded significantly.
And many of us judge Trump well on that basis.
“Did Kamala even know him at the time?”
That matters why ? She married a man with that character.
” How do you know that EMHOFF “got” her to obtain an abortion, and that it was not her choice?”
Does it matter ?
” Emhoff is NOT running for President”
Nope, but he is a choice of VP harris and we measure people by their choices.
You do it all the time.
“Trump was found iable for sexually assaulting a woman and defaming her.”
Most people do not beleive that.
“He has bragged about grabbing womens’ genitalia. ”
And we judge him based on that, just as we judge Kackling Kamala based on what she says.
“When the Access Hollywood tapes came out, he said “guys” would find it cool but women would be offended.”
Actually serial purjerer Micheal Cohen said he said that. and the remark was purportedly about the Daniels story – not the access hollywood tapes.
Many guys do find it “cool” that Trump may have bedded a porn star. Many women do not.
” He paid off a porn actress and nude model”
Correct – perfectly legal.
“then falsified business records to hide i”
False – outside Manhattan and the far left no one buys this.
“:in order to influence the election in which he wanted to court Evangelical voters.”
That argument requires Trump to have a time machine.
But lets say it is True – it is still perfectly legal.
Biden threatend social media to get them to kill the Hunter Biden laptop story.
“That got him 34 felony convictions.”
Which will disappear very quickly, because that is what happens when you conduyct a fraudulent trial.
“He is an adjudicated fraudster”
Which will also go away.
You do not seem to grasp that most people either dfo not beleive or do not care about your lawfare.
And to the extent they do – it hurts YOU.
“He lied about losing in 2020 to rile up his fans to attck the Capitol.”
He told the truth in the hope that protests would persuade congress not to certify – perfectly legal and constitutional.
“He insults women: “bird brain Nikki”,”
And you call him worse than Hitler. This is politics.
Halley is not a bird brain. But she is a neocon.
I would prefer her as president over Harris or Biden.
But not over Trump or any other Republican contender.
I expect she may have a role in a trump administration .
““crooked HIllary”,”
If the shoe fits.
““crooked Nancy””
if the shoe fits
You do know that Nancy’s children are also tied up in the Hunter Biden bribery and graft.
” Kamala “decided to be black” after portraying herself as Indian.”
She did. And we can judge her – positively or negatively for that.
I would note that in 2020 CNN had this same debate. With Don Lemon leading the charge against Harris.
Is Trump barred from repeating things that CNN has claimed ?
“You can literally smell the Republican desperation here.”
only in your head.
There is little doubt Harris is getting a honeymoon. It appears to have peaked but maybe not.
Trump has had to switch from running against Biden to running against Harris.
TYo this point Harris has been poorly vetted and most voters do not know who she is really.
Further she is changing her views and her history on nearly everything.
I would note – Trump made clear – he does not care if Harris is black or East Asian.
The REAL issue is that he is inauthentic – not genuine. A chimera.
It will take time for Trump to get that through to people – but Harris is a fraud, and eventually that will stick.
Just as crooked hillary did.
He appears to have decided to deal with Harris’s personality NOW – in August – because most people are not paying attention yet.
After Trump has made it clear that Harris is a fraud – then it will be far easier to hang the failed policies she is tied to arround her neck
In nearly everyway – things are getting worse – those great jobs numbers you have been ranting about – gone. The unemployment rate is back to where it was in Oct 2021 and RISING. The Stock market has also dropped significantly – not quite to 2020 levels – but way down.
Economic growth is WAY DOWN and teetering on turning negative.
Several recession indicators say we are in a recession.
Inflation is stuborning holding at 3.4% – 2pts higher than under Trump Bidenflation has averaged 6+%.
Consumer confidence is tanking.
Consumer spending is dropping.
The disaster in the Mideast is expanding.
BTW no one is interested in your rants about J6 We have seen the REAL video of J6. We saw trhe BLM violence of 2020, and the ProHama violence right now. And … fill in any of the many left wing nut riots and violent acts.
We KNOW that the most dangerosu violence in this country is from the left.
More Kamala Parody.
https://youtu.be/RIjoPqIcyaw
There is also an excellent video on Glenn Greenwald interviewing Lee Fang on California Politics and Harris’s actual ideology.
There will be LOTS of video painting Harris as a left wing nut. But as Fang points out – that is all just political opportunism.
Harris is an ambitious corporate schill – as is Newsome and Pelosi. She does not have any real ideology, except Harris.
Actually, it’s far more significant if the nanny did not have an abortion. Some phony, self centered, married LA lawyer knocking up a nanny and paying for an abortion has nothing to do with the Kamel. A non issue, except if Mr Dougie is around
She is married to him – just as it is relevant that Trump hired Cohen it is FAR MORE relevant that Kamala married Emhoffe.
Trump’s character and his skill at judging character have always been a legitimate issue in his presidential constests.
Even if the left has lied about them.
Harris’s own character, as well as her judgewment of the character of her husband are legitimate issues.
Trump’s character is reflected in the trail of litigation–thousands of lawsuits for refusing to pay valid bills, over 90 criminal charges for things like: stealing classified documents, lying about returning them, falsifying business records to cover up payoffs for sexual liaisons, and starting an insurrection based on the Big Lie. Then, there’s his marital record–5 children by 3 different wives and he cheated on all 3 of them. He called his current wifey “a good-looking piece of axx”. None of this is lies from “the Left”–it is provable fact. How about sexually assaulting E. Jean Carroll–he had a trial, was represented by counsel, and lost,. Twice. How about his criminal conviction for falsifying business records–again, represented by counsel, full opportunity to defend himself, and found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
You claim he has some “skill at judging character”–I laughed out loud at that one. Trump is a sociopathic narcissist who thinks that people are charmed by him. He thinks that he can claim to be “a very stable genius in astonishingly good health”, but he is so profoundly ignorant of even how the US government works that it is embarrassing. He was unaware that Kamala Harris is both black and of Indian heritage–but instead of keeping hs mouth shut about it–he attacks her. The issue is his IGNORANCE, not that she has tried to cover up her heritage. Very Trumpian.
Cite something that proves that Harris has issues with her “character”.
When the likelihood of the outcome and great possibility that their opponent maybe seriously injured why would the Olympic committee sanction these events? It makes no sense.
*LORETTA
For the greater good of course.
Weird, here republicans insist that those identified as female on their birth certificate are female. Khelif was identified as female at birth, raised as female are her life. Now THEY want to identify her as male because she looks male?
Marjorie Taylor Greene looks like a guy but identifies as female. Should we start calling her out for masquerading as female? Nobody is talking about the NZ women’s rugby team’s very masculine women. Why isn’t that a controversy?
Btw, it’s illegal for gays or transgender individuals to exist in Algeria. It’s a crime to get transgender surgery. Crazy part is she’s never had it. It’s natural. God created her that way. Are conservatives upset that god is able to do that?
It’s about chromosomes, not transgenderism or how people look. Females with XY chromosomes are a class of their own with respect to athletic competition.
People with XY chromosomes are not female.
But she’s biologically female. Conservatives have made it a point that genitals and anatomy determine sexual identity. If she has the anatomy of a female and has xy chromosomes she’s still female. And has reproductive organs of a female. There are XXY and XYY chromosomes in rare cases. But what seems to matter most to the critics is anatomy(looks). Khelif is anatomically female.
* LORETTA
Objection! Hearsay.
Chromosomes are irrelevant. She was matched by weight and skill. Her anatomy is female. Does she have a penis? Has she been thru a sex change operation? According to many here she’s should be female. Her anatomical ‘configuration’ is natural. She’s being judged by her looks.
Here’s the kicker, she’s still referred as “she” even by her critics. Not as a “he”.
Being matched by weight is the only consideration that was given. Nothing has been said about having been matched by testosterone levels and muscle and bone density. She may be female as she claims, but having XY chromosomes puts her in an altogether different class. Let her compete, but let it be with other females who also test for XY chromosomes.
She should compete with others of the same weight class that’s all that’s required. She’s biologically female.
Therein lies the issue. There is more that needs to be required.
Why? The only reason this is an issue is because people questioned her looks. If she looked more feminine nobody would have known she had xy chromosomes.
Perhaps they should test the entire NZ women’s rugby team. They do exhibit masculine features.
No, the issue is she has XY chromosomes. It’s not a level playing field for those with XX chromosomes to have to compete against those with XY chromosomes. Also, everyone knows she has XY chromosomes because she tested for them. The issue cannot be made any simpler than that. Refuse to accept it if you must.
*LORETTA
There you go, Ron. You’ve been normative reset! Bravo. She’s a female with XY chromosomes!
The Olympic Games are yet another example of a once solemn institution being destroyed by the Left. The Ancient Greeks would be surprised that modern Western Civilization was capable of that feat, after being established in 776 B.C. Everything the Left touches is destroyed.
Holy See ‘deplores’ offence to Christians in Opening Ceremony
“The Holy See was saddened by certain scenes during the opening ceremony of the Paris Olympic Games” the statement reads, “and can only join the voices that have been raised in recent days to deplore the offence caused to many Christians and believers of other religions.”
The statement continues, “At a prestigious event where the whole world comes together to share common values, there should be no allusions ridiculing the religious convictions of many people.” While insisting that freedom of expression is not being called into question, it explains that such freedom “is limited by respect for others.”
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2024-08/holy-see-deplores-offence-to-christians-in-opening-ceremony.html
America has surrendered Society to morons. The men with Birkenstocks and hair buns, the women and their constant carping about equity, and both swearing allegiance to runaway budget funding nonsense, all in the promotion of some future nirvana, aren’t we just special people they profess. These fools are paving the road to Perdition; their actions are deceitful, predatory, and controlling.
They have succeeded in modification of language to fit their Heavenly Nirvana, where now Man is Woman and Woman is Man, just one of the examples of the harm their dogma is doing, UTTER NONSENSE. The foundation of the dogma is built on lies, media acquiescence and maledicted speech and actions.
These detestable lying morons must be shown the door (exit stage left), good riddance.
God help us All
Nuke the sinners.
Nah, just nuke the self-hating nihilists who want to inflict their misery on everyone else. Would you be willing to take a one-way trip to a remote island to fulfill that destiny?
Just as there are distinct classifications separating men and women athletes, there now is needed a third separate classification of female athletes who test with XY chromosomes. They too should be allowed to compete within a class entirely their own. Afterall, keeping the playing fields level is what is at stake and all that should matter here.
Keep two categories. Questionables compete with the men.
WGSin AZ
If giving hand jobs to livestock was an Olympic sport, then UpstateFarmer would be the winner, hands down.
giving BJs to corrupt politicians makes you the most qualified woman democrat for POTUS, sorry anon, you have to be a woman – you should have read the fine print first.
Without full disclosure about how these women qualified, my first thought is to ask if testosterone levels are part of the drug testing. Anabolic steroid use is prohibited. Testosterone is a steroid produced naturally that is a related compound. Testosterone levels (normal ranges) are much much higher in men. This entire controversy is very fishy.
There could be, for fairness in sports, entirely open competition. One 400 meter swimming competition. If anyone wants to keep track of the best women, they can. The best transgender, intersex, disabled – whatever. Weight classes in boxing. Belt levels in martial arts.
Will men dominate? Of course. The Olympics was all about military skills. In some cases, diving comes to mind, a woman might well dominate. Open Olympics. People all competing on a level playing field. May the best Person win.
Just another attempt by Turley to turn and twist another story to cause rage and grievance to the cult base. Turley yells…SUEY……and they come running.
What, Fishstick? Cannot see the obvious of how wrong it is for a biological male to be competing against a biological female? We are supporting women’s rights. If these trans, intersex-whatever, want to compete, given them their own category. Then all is fair in sports.
Like I wrote, they come running. What you wrote is not what I was pointing out. Twist and turn everything and anything right?
*LORETTA
General alert. Don’t read beyond this point. It’s off topic and consists of. –> you’re a big fat pig and you are pond scum.
The Left fein “outrage” about Trump’s “grab them by the pu***y” comment. However, when it comes to breaking their nose and bludgeoning women (Paris Boxing), raping them (Harvey Weinstein), using young girls as sex workers (Jeffrey Epstein), sexually assaulting them (Bill Clinton / Paula Jones, Juanita Broderick), destroying them (James Carville / Hillary), surgically removing their breasts as minors, all are promulgated as ejaculatory dogmas
Having a painting done of a sexual predator like Bill Clinton, that depicts him wearing a dress worn by his sexual victim stained with his semen, well thats downright divine. That it was hung in Epstein’s mansion made it a sacred shrine
Artist who painted Bill Clinton in dress had ‘no idea’ it was hanging in Jeffrey Epstein’s mansion
https://nypost.com/2019/08/16/artist-who-painted-bill-clinton-in-dress-and-heels-had-no-idea-it-was-hanging-in-epsteins-mansion/
You really do understand the term “suey” don’t you…………
Fishwings is the incel that is gonna incel
*LORETTA
The underlying illness is misogyny. It’s a broad category.
Jonathan: The face off between Kamala Harris and DJT, unlike the Olympics, involves a clear choice between a woman and a man. Right now the woman is on the offensive and the man is playing defense.
I’m watching the men’s Olympic tennis finals between Alcaraz and Djokovic–an epic match between two worthy opponents. And I was thinking about DJT’s refusal to debate Harris on September 10 as previously agreed upon by the two campaigns. Using a sports comparison, suppose Djokovic were to say “I don’t want to play the final at Roland Garros. I will play it someplace in Serbia and I’ll set the date.” Would that be acceptable to the Olympic officials–or should it be?
In sports you agree to show up at the times and dates set by tournament officials. You don’t get to set your own terms. If you don’t show up you lose by default. It should be no different with respect to presidential debates. DJT agreed to debate Harris on September 10 to be moderated by ABC. Now DJT has changed his mind and will only debate Harris on September 4 on Fox where he thinks he will have a more friendly audience. If DJT doesn’t show up on September 10 he should lose by default!
Non-sequitur much? 😛😛😛
The Dem’s got their terms on the first debate, therefore the Republicans should get their terms for the second debate.
Trump agreed to the terms, first and second debate.
He did?
Basic contract law applies.
Two parties to the agreement, Trump and Biden.
Biden dropped out, thus altering the contract. Null and void.
Trump had no agreed upon terms with Kamala Harris.
Kamala can negotiate her own terms with Trump.
Trump proposed the Fox debate.
Just as Biden proposed the CNN debate.
Trump showed up for CNN debate.
Kamala is too afraid to face Fox News?
But she wants to be the Leader of the Free World? Just pathetic.
Trump is a COWARD and we won’t let him forget it. Bok Bok Bok. Trump challenged her to “anywhere. any time.” Since she has erased his lead in the polls, he wants Hannity there to save him when she goes after him for lying and cheap insults.
Expect people to confront him wearing chicken suits. Bok Bok Bok will be the rallying cry.
Basic contract law—eh? What did the contract say? Have you seen it, or are you guessing? Did it say that Trump could chicken out if Biden was not the nominee? In fact, Biden wasn’t the nominee for the first debate, and neither was Trump. Or, was the agreement to just show up and debate on dates certain, with ABC as the moderator and with no audience and time limits? Trump obviously assumed that Biden would be the nominee, but failed to negotiate for an escape clause if that assumption turned out to be wrong.
Trump agreed to the terms, which included no audience and a time limit for speaking, at which point the microphone would be turned off. The reason this was necessary is because Trump interrupted and spoke over both Hillary and Biden in previous debates.
Now he’s trying to back out and try to get a different deal that he thinks will benefit him. He’s obviously afraid to debate Kamala under the terms he previously agreed to.
First and second debate with Joe Biden.
“DJT agreed to debate Harris on September 10” is a false statement. He agreed to a second debate with Biden on September 10.
Trump is running as fast as he can from his commitment. And what’s really funny is he said he will only do it on FOX with to be sure a hand-picked audience from FOX producers and directors.
“Trump is running as fast as he can” …. cuz he’s scared??
Fishy, do you REALLY believe that garbage? I mean, really?
It is so OBVIOUSLY not true, yet you believe it?
My God you are a useful idiot.
Democrats count on the stupidity of their voters.
It is legit frightening how out of her league Kamala Harris is,
and even more frightening how brainwashed and stupid Democrat voters are.
Fishy, Do you know that Brett and Martha, the proposed moderators on Fox are “never Trumpers”? Do you know most of the top brass at Fox News, Murdoch, etc, would rather see Kamala elected over Trump?
Trump debating on Fox is not a friendly venue for him any more than it is for Kamala.
Even Bernie Sanders did a Townhall on Fox.
You should be angry that your Democrat Party thinks you are so stupid that they shovel this kind of horse shiit into your weak brains because they KNOW how stupid their voters are.
Democrats USE you as their patsies, useful idiots. They disrespect you. Your ‘dear party leaders’ are LAUGHING at you. It’s pathetic.
Based on his intelligent posts, Fish Wings is obviously not a Fox viewer. Tell us—why is Trump chickening out? What does he expect to get at Fox that he wouldn’t get from ABC? He obviously thinks that Fox will help him in some way or another, like letting him interrupt the Vice President, run over his time, not call him out for his lies, or give him softball questions that don’t address his failures during his first term, his criminal convictions, his pending criminal charges, his adjudications for sexual assault and fraud and Project 2025. He probably thinks they’ll let him get away with lying about her and her record. Your claim that Fox isn’t biased is laughable. Hannity, Ingraham and Turley work for Fox.
Trump can “propose” anything he wants —Kamala has made it clear she will be at the debate stage on the agreed upon date and time. If Trump chickens out, she’ll address the nation.
This effort to try to back out of the agreement he made is quintessential Trump— make a deal and then try to back out and force a different deal on better terms. This isn’t our Vice President’s first rodeo. She knows how to handle crooks and can’t be bullied.
Kamala is too afraid to sit for interviews with reporters who could NOT BE MORE FRIENDLY to her. Trump sat for questions from Black Journalists, and answered every question, but Kamala couldn’t make it? Come on.
Kamala is ducking and hiding.
Trump talks to whoever asks him.
Kamala can’t talk unless she’s scripted or tossed softballs like Dementia Joe gets: “What flavor ice cream did you get, sir?”
They’ll ask Momala, “How much curry and which peppers do you use in your Indian curry recipes”?
Or maybe they’ll ask Momala: “Did you know your husband had been banging his nanny and got her pregnant, and caused her to lose her teacher job?” Good stuff coming, Fishy. Buckle up.
“Trump sat for questions from Black Journalists, and answered every question” No he didn’t. He lied and was a racist A hole. I give trump great praise for being himself and showing how racist he is. Most people don’t do that. Trump did. And it isn’t just me, a white guy that thought his talking points were incredibly racist. Virtually every person in attendance thought so.
So trump is out in the open about his racism. The only reason I see to vote for him is that you also are a racist and want to “cleanse” the country of black and brown people. or perhaps you are a black or brown person and you don’t mind being led around like a pet on a leash like Clarence Thomas is. You choose, You can’t hide it anymore. Trump outed himself as a racist. Do you approve?
Ask Rev. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Whoopi, Joy Behar, even Oprah if Trump is a racist. They know full well Trump is not a racist. He treats everyone the same. You don’t get one version of Trump in public and a different version in private. He’s who he is. The racist label is ALL about politics. The people who’ve known Trump for decades know the truth. But politics is a nasty game and they are playing it by smearing him as a racist. It’s all they’ve got.
Joe Biden is the damn racist. Everyone in Washington knows it, too. But he’s a Democrat, so he is protected.
“Virtually every person in attendance thought so.”
That’s a lie.
“Trump sat for questions from Black Journalists, and answered every question” No he didn’t.”
That’s a lie. Trump answered every question they asked him. You may not like what he said or approve of how he answered, but he answered them all.
He spoke to them the same way he speaks to anyone else who treats him with such disrespect and contempt. Trump did not “pander” to the black journalist or the mostly black audience the way both Biden and Kamala do. Trump treated them EXACTLY as he treats anyone else. Trump did not let them get away with their crap, same as he doesn’t take crap from any other reporters. What’s the problem?
The questions were hostile, gotcha questions. The journalist from ABC was hostile and combative towards Trump right out of the gate. They kept him waiting for 40 minutes, they were rude to him, disrespectful toward him. But he still sat down and answered all of their questions. When his time was up, he GRACIOUSLY reached out to shake the hand of the rude, hostile host.
Kamala didn’t even show up in front a VERY friendly, supportive audience. Kamala won’t even take a question from Fox News. That is beyond pathetic and weak.
You really need to stop listening to the Fake News. They are F’ing up your brain.
“being led around like a pet on a leash like Clarence Thomas is.”
WOW. My God that is demeaning. You say you are a ‘white guy’? You are calling a black Supreme Court justice a “pet on a leash”? Holy crap, man, if you want to see what a racist looks like, look in the mirror.
Because you disagree with his opinions, Justice Thomas is a “dog on a leash” to you?
Clarence Thomas grew up dirt poor, spent his youth as a radical Marxist leftist revolutionary. Then he woke up. It is Democrats who are enraged that they cannot control the mind of Clarence Thomas.
So they smear him, insult his intelligence.
It is now, and has always been, Democrats that are the party of racism, the party of KKK, the party of segregation… it all comes from Democrats.
You are the racist being led around on a leash by your masters on the Democrat Plantation.
And Clarence Thomas has taken how many very expensive trips at a billionaires expense that he has never accounted for. And he has heard cases that involve his benefactor. Pet on a leash, yep describes his actions pretty good.
Wrong again, dum dum. You need to turn off the Propaganda media that lies to you.
You have NO idea what is going on. You know only what the brainwashers want you to know. Pathetic.
You are correct, trump did not agree to a debate with “Harris”. It is also not true that he agreed to a debate with “Biden”. This is the debate requirement…
Here is a direct quote from the Commission on Presidential Debate web site says…
The CPD’s first criterion requires satisfaction of the eligibility requirements of Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution. The requirements are satisfied if the candidate:
is at least 35 years of age;
is a Natural Born Citizen of the United States and a resident of the United States for fourteen years; and
is otherwise eligible under the Constitution.
The CPD’s second criterion requires that the candidate qualify to have his/her name appear on enough state ballots to have at least a mathematical chance of securing an Electoral College majority in the 2024 general election. Under the Constitution, the candidate who receives a majority of the votes in the Electoral College, at least 270 votes, is elected President regardless of the popular vote.
The CPD’s third criterion requires that the candidate have a level of support of at least 15% (fifteen percent) of the national electorate as determined by five national public opinion polling organizations selected by the CPD, using the average of those organizations’ most recent publicly-reported results at the time of the determination. CPD will rely on the advice of a recognized expert or experts in public opinion polling in determining the polls it will rely upon. The polls to be relied upon will be selected based on the quality of the methodology employed, the reputation of the polling organizations and the frequency of the polling conducted. CPD will identify the selected polling organizations well in advance of the time the criteria are applied.
Did you see any mention of Biden? trump? Harris? RFK?
No mention of names, none, nada.. trump agreed to these terms when Biden was the nominee, Biden is no longer the nominee. So why does trump want to renege on his promise to debate Sep 10 now? The only thing that has changed is Biden is no longer the nominee, Harris is.
Is trump afraid to be on a debate stage with Kamala and no roaring crowd? You be the judge.
I also want it to be abundantly clear. trump made no promise about Biden as he claims in his rants. None. He agreed to debate based on the CPDs requirements. So if trump says since Biden pulled out, he gets to pull out. Nope, he is lying. But what is new with regards to trump telling lies.
Trump agreed to debate Biden. You remember Biden? The guy who won all the Democrat Primaries by huge margins. Biden the incumbent president running for re-election and expected to win by a large margin? Trump is a presential candidate, running, then, against an incumbent president. Presidential candidates debate presidential candidates, not persons holding an off that is not worth a bucket of warm s…spit. Harris had nothing to do with it.
The debate agreement said nothing about specific people that would be on the debate stage.It only mentions criteria. Trump agreed to that criteria, To argue that he agreed to debate Biden is not true. He made an assumption. Shows how smart he was to make that assumption doesn’t it, Pretty much everyone in the world except Biden knew Biden would not be the nominee on June 1. Is trump really that dumb that he got blind sided by Biden’s withdrawal?
By the way, Several top aids to trump in his administration have come out forcefully in favor of Kamala. What do they know about trump that you don’t?
I tried finding a FoxNews link but they rarely cover anything about trump unless it makes him look good. This doesn’t make trump look so good so I guess it isn’t news?
https://apnews.com/article/harris-trump-republicans-kinzinger-haley-voters-8b67604df273c0e198b1d46eb4755d50
Where in the agreement does it have the word “Biden”, “trump”, or “Harris”? Could you please provide a link?
* LORETTA
Trump’s agreement was to debate with Biden. It was not an agreement to debate the DNC candidate.
Djokavic agreed to play the winner of a match. You may have a brain hiccup. You frequently jump over information.