On Face the Nation this morning, Sen. John McCain became the latest figure to publicly state that the Bush Administration violated the Geneva Conventions and the U.N. Convention Against Torture. It is not clear how many international and domestic figures will have to publicly acknowledge these crimes before Attorney General Eric Holder will appoint a special prosecutor. I discussed the torture issue last night on this segment of MSNBC Countdown.
During the show, McCain stated “[Torture memo author Jay Bybee] falls into the same category as everybody else, as far as giving very bad advice and misinterpreting fundamentally what the United States is all about, much less things like the Geneva Conventions. Under President Reagan, we signed [the Convention] Against Torture. We were in violation of that.”
Article 7 of the Convention Against Torture states:
Article 7
1. The State Party in territory under whose jurisdiction a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is found, shall in the cases contemplated in article 5, if it does not extradite him, submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution.
2. These authorities shall take their decision in the same manner as in the case of any ordinary offence of a serious nature under the law of that State. In the cases referred to in article 5, paragraph 2, the standards of evidence required for prosecution and conviction shall in no way be less stringent than those which apply in the cases referred to in article 5, paragraph 1.
There is now Republican and Democratic leaders acknowledging the obvious: we violated these treaties and international law. What they are not being asked is how we reconcile our ongoing violation of these laws by not investigating and prosecuting such crimes. Once again, it is important to note that it is not the lawyers but the leaders who are the principle targets of such investigations: Bush, Cheney, Tenet, Gonzales and others. The lawyers may also be investigated but there is a clear effort to focus on the attorneys to avoid dealing with the obvious responsible parties at the top of the chain of command.
I believe that it comes down to this. Some of us what instant gratification for the most horrendous crime against humanity. Some of us are will to wait until Obama has what he needs to get the country back on track. I also believe that he is letting the tempest stir the pot so to speak.
I do not think that he wants this to be a political battle. He wants it be what it is. With Feith calling for an investigation NOW, I believe that he is trying to force the hand. In a game of chess or diplomacy or the game that I cut my teeth on stocks and bonds. Sometime you just wait the other side out and then winner takes all.
I also believe that if he rushes in there are tooooo many people on both sides of the aisle thats heads will roll.
Professor Turley,
What does Holder have to fear?
A special prosecutor would see if there was enough evidence for a reasonable jury to convict.
He would then present it to a grand jury which would return a true bill or not. (They do not have to be a rubber stamp.)
On a true bill there would be a trial and a jury would decide if the prosecutor had proven the case beyond a reasonable doubt.
Neither Holder nor Obama nor a special prosecutor can be blamed for what these two juries do.
So fill up the seats already: http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2009/04/holder-your-horses.html
PBO is a poll watcher, until the polls swing, they’re just testing the waters. Feith,Cheney and others are trying to bait Obama into an investigation to stir up some anti-Obama rhetoric.
Conducted April 21-22:2* Did the United States torture terrorism suspects?
42% Yes
37% No [what universe do these people live in?]
21% Not sure
3*Should the Obama administration do more investigating to find out how the Bush administration treated terrorism suspects?
28% Yes
58% No
13% Not sure
4* Does the release of CIA memos on interrogation techniques help the image of the United States abroad or does it endanger the national security of the United States?
28% Helps the image of the United States abroad
58% Endangers the national security of the United States
14% Not sure
Here is the McCain ‘Face The Nation’ video from yesterday. I highly recommend that you view it a listen closely to McCain’s statements.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/04/26/sen_mccain_on_torture_on_face_the_nation.html
This is not, by Obama’s own admission, his problem to finesse, wait around for a good time, get things in order first, have a secret plan about, etc. etc. The executive branch does not prosecute our laws. The judicial branch is its own separate but eqaul branch of our govt. It should not take orders from the president. These types of arguments, which have their own set of problems, can only apply to the executive branch. The decision to prosecute does not lie with Obama, nor should he, according to our Constitution, interfere in the process at all.
The law was broken. It is past time for the judicial branch of our govt. to go to work. There are many capable people who could take this on. In the meantime Obama can devote his time to other duties that actually fall to him and quit worrying about those that do not.
McCain is evidently against any prosecution … I don’t get that part.
Jill,
There are 3 branches of government. The Executive, Congress and Art III, the Judiciary. The Judiciary is to be independent from all three. There is an occasional cross over function for the purpose of checks and balances. Admittedly not perfect but it works and it is the best that I know of.
The AG serves at the pleasure of the President (with the advice and consent of the Senate) and is charged with trying to enforce the laws of the US. The Judiciary is charged with uphold the laws of the US. Don’t confuse the 2.
That is why I see it as a bad ideal for the Prosecutors/District Attorneys office to be housed in the same building with the Courts. Now if the Defendant had as much access and contact with the courts as the Prosecutor then all would be just fine. Another subject.
Check the Senate voting record… didn’t John McCain initiate, fund, conspire and wage a War of Aggression against Iraq and Afganistan?
John McCain voted “Aye” Senate Vote On Passage: H. J. Res. 114 [107th]: Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002. He voted to invade Iraq.
Excerpts from: “Torture and Washington’s policy of Aggressive War” 27 April 2009 by Alex Lantier
“The use of torture is itself inseparable from the central criminal act that was sanctioned by the entire US political establishment—the launching of illegal and aggressive wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. This decision had far-reaching and tragic consequences, of which torture was only one. These wars of aggression caused the death, maiming and displacement of millions in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as the death and physical and mental scarring of thousands of American soldiers.”
“The close link between torture and US wars of aggression again confirms the contention of the International Military Tribunal set up to prosecute the Nazi leadership at Nuremberg: “To initiate a war of aggression… is not only an international crime, it is the supreme international crime, differing from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.”
I agree, the AG does serve at the pleasure of the president and is charged with enforcing the laws of the US. That’s why s/he needs to have integrity. If the president askes the AG to ignore the law or to do anything else illegal, the AG shoud resign and report the illegal request. Either Obama has made an illegal request for Holder to not prosecute and the AG doesn’t have the integity to resign and report the president or the AG should act as he is charged by enforcing our clear law on war crimes.
Jill, Bravo!!! Well said!!!
In the meantime Obama can devote his time to other duties that actually fall to him and quit worrying about those that do not.
Like vacancies at the Federal Reserve and Department of Health and Human Services. Just cause he’s not on TV everyday saying this is the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression does not mean were not in one and there are still over fifteen positions that need confirmation at the Federal Reserve and now, outbreak of Swine Flu and there’s a note on the door at DHHS that says the doctors out. The pigs must of caught wind that the Oministration is going to issue a flatulence tax. Wonder what the cows will bring home.
Has anybody seen the video of him talking to the teleprompter, what a joke!!!
That is why we have the Impeachment process for High Crimes and Misdemeanors. And if the US Senate has ratified a treaty that the President has agreed to then we as a whole are stuck with it.
I believe that a unilateral treaty is only binding on the present administration alone. That was the controversy with the League of Nations and slap me if I am wrong, and call me Sally, but I think Woodrow Wilson?
The US Congress kind of embarrassed him by not ratifying.
Bdman,
I am not joking about the enforcement of our laws on war crimes. Please do not associate what I am saying with what you are saying. I take the duty of the AG to prosecute war crimes, to include our highest officials, very seriously. There is no reason not to follow our laws. It is wrong not to do so.
Obama doesn’t want to prosecute War Criminals because people will find out that he is a War Criminal.
So, McCain believes that the laws regarding torture were broken, but that in response we should again break the law by ignoring our commitment to investigate the matter?
McCain and Obama have been a War Criminals for years in funding, conspiring and waging Wars of Aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Obama could be arrested today. Before you even get into the War Crimes charges “he might be facing 1,000 years in state penitentiaries around the country on forgery charges alone regarding his Certification of life birth for and Certification of Selective Service. Experts say that they show numerous signs of forgery. Additionally, there are numerous counts of suspected fraud, voter fraud, mail fraud, wire fraud, corruption of a public official, intimidation, interference with the system of justice, social security fraud, tax fraud, perjury and other related crimes.”
Excerpts from Dr. Orly Taitz
I see, in my minds eye, that captivating scene from “V.”
I suspect McCain has done about as much as he can if he wants to have any friends.
Yes, Josh, that is evident in the video, isn’t it?
McCain says they have been “punished” in the court of public opinion. I bet murders, rapists, etc. would just love that. We don’t need no stinkin’ law, huh, John?
Jill, I’m with ya but you have to understand that PBO could care a less about the law and I am starting to believe he doesn’t even know what law is. I,like many others were led to believe that he was a constitutional law proffesor when in fact he wasn’t.
Your request is noted.
Ok, I will bite, What is PBO?
bdman,
I ask again that you not associate your words to mine. My concern is not with Obama’s education or former work history. I only care to see that war crimes must be prosecuted. There is no reason not to do so and it is also wrong not to do so.
President Barack Obama
Oh thank you ever so much. Why a title such as that when he is Mr. President at the present and President B. Obama when he is out of office.
For a good laugh on a serious subject. Steve Benen dug up W’s words after Abu Ghraib was exposed:
George W. Bush Thinks the Bush-Era Torture Should Be Investigated
Posted by Steve Benen, Washington Monthly at 2:15 PM on April 27, 2009.
If Democrats are looking for an excuse to do the right thing, they don’t have to say much more than, “We’re doing what Bush told us to do.” {Here’s Bush’s own words}:
“The right sentiment for a U.S. president to express when it comes to government-sanctioned, government-directed torture policies:
“It’s important for people to understand that in a democracy, there will be a full investigation. In other words, we want to know the truth. In our country, when there’s an allegation of abuse … there will be a full investigation, and justice will be delivered. … It’s very important for people and your listeners to understand that in our country, when an issue is brought to our attention on this magnitude, we act. And we act in a way in which leaders are willing to discuss it with the media. … In other words, people want to know the truth.
“That stands in contrast to dictatorships. A dictator wouldn’t be answering questions about this. A dictator wouldn’t be saying that the system will be investigated and the world will see the results of the investigation.”
Jill, again your request has been noted.
In order to prosecute the law one must know what the law is. By doing so it can be determined what laws were broken. My personal belief is that the law was broken but we are a court of public opinion. In light of the circumstances I think the bastards got what they deserve.
Obama’s education: To prosecute or defend the law one must have an education in law, unless you are a fool.
Anonymously Yours: PBO, MR.P, The “O”, This “O” ministration and B.O. for the dog are just a few.
Thank you, I think Pardon me?
I will not take you on if you are saying PBO is a dog.
Obama’s education is irrelevant. This story does not concern Obama. Holder is the AG, this is his decision. The law is clear. We need an impartial, independent invetigation and should charges be waranted, prosecution should proceed.
http://BuenaVistaMall.com
and that there is now proof that during the first quarter of this year he has spent close to $700,000 in legal fees to Bob Bauer all to keep his records sealed. More openness and transparency. Change you can believe in.
Anonymously Yours Mr. Presidents dog is named BO.
Thank you. Sir.
bdaman
Have you seen this site? http://www.orlytaitzesq.com
Dr. Orly Taitz is after Obama big time. She has him on many, many charges but can’t find a prosecutor or judge to enforce the laws.
http://BuenaVistaMall.com
I’m sorry to be off topic but needed to add in case you all missed it. The employee that breeched the passport files of McCain, Clinton and Obama was found dead last week just as he was beginning to cooperate with the Federal investigation. I’m sure it was suicide seeing how The “O”s file was the intended target. I wonder what he scrubbed from the file?
Jill, are you saying that if Mr. President had a GED it would be O.K. with you. His education is irrelevant? We already know his only business experience, lets hope he did better in education.
Holder said we are a nation of cowards. To use the word “we”, he has included himself in that description.
http://BuenaVistaMall.com don’t bring up Taitz or Berg here, If you want to bring that up use Donofrio, Appuzo, Gary Kreep ect. ect. I appreciate Taitz passion and her desire and alot of times she is misunderstood. Being a Russian transplant she has taken her right to free speech a little to far.
Hers is the link to the Passport Murder:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/apr/19/key-witness-in-passport-fraud-case-fatally-shot/
BVM, Dr. Taitz is a fruitcake dentist with a law degree. She is one of the principal proponents of the claim that Obama is not a U.S. citizen. She cannot find anyone to consider her claims on their merits because her claims don’t have any merit. She is the last person one should rely upon as a source of credible criticism of anything. I’m not sure I would even want her cleaning my teeth.
I guess my reading of this I cannot tell if he was recently shot or he was shot in 2008.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/04/key-witness-in-presidential-passport-tampering-case-murdered.html
Any thread where BVM and BDAMAN are the primary commentators is not worth the time. BVM is a hysteric posing as a radical and BDAMAN is somewhere out in space. Happy conspiracy theories to both of you.
Well Mr. Spindell you explain the near $700k payment to Mr. Bauer. Sure is an expensive firm to recieve that much money in the first quarter of this year. Must be some really good legal advice. I would prefer the Twilight Zone vs space
Mike, correction on She is one of the principal proponents of the claim that Obama is not a U.S. citizen.
It’s NATURAL BORN CITIZEN as perscribed in Article II, section I of the Suprmeme Law of the Land that this O-ministration cares nothing about. Show me some quotes from the Oricle on how he views the constitution. Somewhere in those quotes he will tell you that piece of paper was written two hundred years ago and things have CHANGED.
Google Obama’s view of the constitution and start reading.
So now the trolls are replaying the Clinton killed everyone crap. You guys are really getting desperate. By the way, BDN,Obama was the editor of the Law Review at Harvard Law. I think you can rest assured that he is educated. By the way,
Mike S., these claims don’t even rise to the level of being called conspiracy theories. They are just fabrications.
Hear Obamas own voice when he says the constitution is a fundamental FLAW that continues until today.
Mike Spindell,
Are you on Linkdn?
I watched Sen. McCain’s interview on Face the Nation yesterday. His views are representative of many of those who oppose any further investigation and prosecution of any wrongdoing. But if one examines his arguments, they are either based upon false premises, or are purely political. Consider the following:
1. Sen. McCain objects to prosecuting attorneys for giving bad legal advice. No one has proposed prosecuting attorneys for giving bad legal advice. I’ll say it once again. Malpractice is not a crime. Most people (other than those who refuse to accept the applicability of relevant statutory and treaty law) acknowledge that the legal memoranda misstated the law. The issue for a prosecutor would be whether the attorneys knowingly misstated the law to provide false justification for a course of action which the administration intended to pursue. On the civil side, that sort of misrepresentation would constitute a fraud on the court, exposing a lawyer to sanctions by the court and possible referral to bar disciplinary authorities. In the context of the war in Iraq and the treatment of detainees, the attorneys’ memoranda might be evidence of participation in a conspiracy to violate laws relating to torture and the conduct of illegal wars.
2. Sen. McCain expresses concern that an investigation could be used to “settle old political scores.” That is true, but the prosecution of prominent political figures is always met with the accusation that the criminal charges are political payback. Should we permit this irrational fear to immunize the politically powerful against prosecution for wrongdoing? Shall we accept the Bush administration’s argument that violations of U.S. and international law were simply the acts of a “few bad apples”? Is it acceptable in a system which prides itself on the ideal that no one is above the law that we throw a few enlisted soldiers to the wolves and pat ourselves on the back for our adherence to principle?
3. Sen. McCain is unhappy because the upcoming release of additional photographs will only “fan the flames.” Of course it will. This is essentially the argument of what I call the Noonanists (in honor of Peggy Noonan), those who believe that it would be better for the nation if certain truths remained hidden from view. This argument proceeds from the idea that the people should not have to bear the pain of confronting what their own leaders are capable of perpetrating in their name. It treats citizens as children, unable to deal with facts which may conflict with deeply held beliefs about what the country represents. But all of us recall instances from our own childhoods in which our parents sought to protect us from the truth, and all of us figured it out anyway. Secrets are destructive things. They eat away at the character of a society in the same way that they eat away at an individual. I for one have seldom come to understand painful truths about myself unless they were pounded into my skull with the proverbial two by four.
4. Sen. McCain insists that the atrocities will never be repeated by any future government and that we should therefore forsake retribution for the sake of moving forward in unity. The premise of that statement is speculative, the conclusion false. Retribution is the exaction of vengeance and is not the goal of investigation and prosecution. They must be undertaken because history will not be denied its proper recognition. Medgar Evans was shot to death in his carport in 1963. Byron De La Beckwith, the alleged assailant, was twice tried in 1964, both trials producing hung juries. He was finally convicted of murder in 1994 because people realized that we could not “move on” as a society otherwise. Edgar Ray Kellen was suspected of involvement in the Mississippi murders of civil rights workers in 1964. When the state of Mississippi refused to pursue any charges, the federal government brought civil rights charges against Kellen, again resulting in a mistrial. Forty-one years later Kellen was convicted of three counts of manslaughter, despite the wishes of many that the secrets remain buried with the bodies of three young men.
Secrets and lies are the currency of those who wish to live their lives in denial. Whether we wish to face the truth in this instance is irrelevant; the truth will emerge regardless of our efforts to bury it, or ignore it or politicize it. The great test facing us as a nation is whether we have the maturity to accept the burdens imposed by our own ideals.
Mike A.,
That was both emotionally and intellectually powerful.
Even if you are in a minority of one the truth is still the truth.
What is, is? Whether you think it is or you think its not, it still is.
Do not limit yourself to think that something is not possible with out first looking at the possibilities.
Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance.
For those who believe no proof is necessary, for those who don’t no proof is possible.
Has a single member of the Turley family ever served their country? It appears not.
It appears the Turley clan is an old style WHINE and dine bunch.
Former Dem, I don’t know where your bitterness comes from, but it makes for some fairly pointless comments. What in the world does military service have to do with the ability to analyze and reflect on current issues? Have you ever asked the same question of Dick Cheney or the members of his family? By the way, I’ll be happy to show you my honorable discharge certificate if you show me yours.
Thank you, Jill. Keep hope alive.
Mike A.
I think I heard that stuff and it a rehash from the Original Whiner, Drug Addicted Republican is that not what DAR stands for anyway at least now days? Rush Limbaugh.
Ol’ We Gotta Travel On McCain (“We got to move on”)
Two more McCain quotes from the FTN transcript:
_________________
McCain: {Quote: Finally, you were around when President Ford pardoned President Nixon. There were allegations of criminal activity on the part of the President of the United States. Most people in retrospect believe that the Ford pardon was right because we moved on. We got to move on.
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: I don’t know because no one has alleged “wrongdoing.” They have alleged
that this advice was wrong and that somehow that these people who gave this advice should be subject
to criminal prosecution. End Quote}
________________
‘Gotta Travel On’ Billy Grammer 1958 #4 Pop Charts
“Poppa writes to Johnny
But Johnny can’t come home…
High sheriff and police riding after me
Riding after me, yes, coming after me
High sheriff and police coming after me
And I feel like I gotta travel on”
Would or do you think McCain wants us to think that he really is that stupid?
What part of the black circle do you white dot?
it sounds like he is asking what black circle because alls he sees is the dot.
They do not seem to get that there are a lot of dots in that circle and each one tied together represents a conspiracy on there part.
The attorney should be as liable under these circumstances as if it were a drug case. Because if it was a drug case and they gave bad advice that it was legal to move and distribute drugs then the attorney would be guilty of either an accessory before the fact, during and after the fact. Is that not why we have RICO?
The penalty is the same as the original crime. Isn’t that why we would not let Kurt Waldheim in this country? Complicity with the Nazis during the 2nd war to end all wars?
Would or do you think McCain wants us to think that he really is that stupid?
What part of the black circle do you “see the” white dot?
It sounds like he is asking what black circle because alls he sees is the dot.
They do not seem to get that there are a lot of dots in that circle and each one tied together represents a conspiracy on there part.
The attorney should be as liable under these circumstances as if it were a drug case. Because if it was a drug case and they gave bad advice that it was legal to move and distribute drugs then the attorney would be guilty of either an accessory before the fact, during and even after the fact. Is that not why we have RICO?
The penalty is the same as the original crime. Isn’t that why we would not let Kurt Waldheim in this country? Complicity with the Nazis during the 2nd war to end all wars?
Former Dem,
I forgot that rule that every person who has an opinion on a subject must have been in the military or one of their relatives must have been in the military. Where did you find that rule? In your Dick and Jane books? How far can you look back in your family tree in order to be able to comment on political matters? Mike A. asked you a pertinent question about Dick Cheney. Even George W. was very briefly in the Air National Guard until he went AWOL.
No one alleged wrongdoing? I guess not if you have your fingers in your ears and you’re uvulating like crazy. On second thought, maybe he’s right. Afterall Cheney just flat out said he ordered waterboarding, so he went far beyond alleging, right into admitting he committed a war crime.
Dick was “in” with the military rafflaw. He did manage at least 5 deferals, or was it 6?
I want rafflaw to realize and understand that Geo. II being AWOL was never conclusively proved. The documents disappeared much like the record of conviction for Drunk Driving in on of them thar New England states.
And remember a Court speaks through it orders.
AY,
I understand that Bush’s records were missing and why was that? And what does your last sentence mean in the Bush scenario? Was there a court order that stated he was not AWOL?
Jill,
You are right about our Friend, Dick Cheney. He was the king of the defermments. And yet he was the military’s friend….except he sent them into wars without body armor, without armored humvees and killed some of them through his private contractor electricians.
And sent them to die for a lie. But we speak of such trivial matters.
The memory of the Bush AWOL story still amuses me. Poor Scott McClellan, standing there in the briefing room and waving a piece of paper in his hand, trying every possible way to get around the question about where GWB was during the period he was alleged to have ‘disappeared’ from the ANG unit to help with a family friend’s campaign.
Each reporter in the room, it seemed, asked the same version of the question, “Was the president present on the base during these dates?”
And all McClellan could do was wave that paper and say, “This is the pay stub! Here are the pay stubs.”
Reporters: “Yes, but was he physically present at the base? Why won’t you just say yes or no?”
McClellan: “You see what I’m holding here? This is a pay stub.”
And on the game went …
Mike Appleton – Excellent analysis of the McCain interview. The last point especially.
‘Gee Whiz, John McCain is confident no administration will repeat this. Well, I guess it’s all cleared up then.’
And Jill – My biggest annoyance with the the current administration’s goofy explanation about wanting to move forward is exactly that the president would have to do absolutely nothing on this matter. To appoint a special prosecutor would detract in no way from his duties. Nobody is asking him to take on the case and put on his lawyer hat. There is an entire department of justice that is charged with doing exactly this kind of work.
Despite having to swat away a few of the flies, good thread.
JT:
Nice addition to the blog having those videos directly on the page. Must the best never rest?
I really liked “V for Vendetta”, mespo. A rare political sci-fi film that has engaged me. For politically inspired comedy, of course, Chaplin’s “The Great Dictator” comes to mind.
Mojo:
Personally I think the only memorable Chaplin film is his biting satire, “A King in New York” which J. Edgar Hoover sought to ban. Rent it sometime if you want to see what the paleo-cons denied us for our own sakes.
mespo -
Just checked out the brief summary of ‘A King in NY’ on imdb. That film has flown under my radar all these years. Made in ’57 it must be one of his lesser known ‘talkies’. And that it so mirrors his own experience of being ‘suspected’ during the McCarthy days makes it intriguing.
Mespo:
What of The Great Dictator?
JT -
Exactly, it was my initial recommendation to anyone here who has not seen it. Clearly one of Chaplin’s classics alongside City Lights, The Kid, The Gold Rush …
JT:
Funny but a tad self-indulgent for my tastes, but to be fair I was in college when I last saw it. My favorite Nazi spoof film was Zero Mostel and Mel Brooks in “The Producers.” Who can forget “Springtime for Hitler and Germany?”
Ok you guys made me look it up. BTW JT nice job on Countdown tonight. Forgive the slight earlier by not mentioning it. Now here’s entertainment:
Ahhh, the classic of Americana:
I was born in Dusseldorf, and that is why they call me Rolf.
Don’t be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the Nazi party.
Personally the show girls costumes are my favorites. Note the strategic pretzels. Who says Mel Brooks can’t coin a slogan too!
“Don’t be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the Nazi party”
One of the best lines of any musical.
Mel Brooks; comic genius.
Bob,Esq:
As a counterargument,I give you “Space Balls.”
Mojo:
I still don’t get the Rolf from Dusseldorf line!
It may be simply that rolf sort of sounds like dorf? That one’s beyond me. It reminds me of the song, ‘Horray for Captain Spaulding’ from the Marx Brothers’ ‘Animal Crackers’. There’s a line:
“Hooray for Captain Spaulding, The African explorer.”
(Spaulding-AKA Groucho)
“Did someone call me Shnorrer?”
From Wikipedia:
The word Schnorrer also occurs in German to describe a person, who frequently asks for little things like cigarettes or little sums of money, without offering a return, and has thus come to mean freeloader.
It may just be a bit of silliness in rhyme, but I’d love to hear any explanation associated with it …
Mojo:
I still don’t get the Rolf from Dusseldorf line!
—
mespo,
I bet ‘…UND that is why they call me Rolf’(ie Ralph) is just a tease on the accent.
My best recollection from the Vietnam years was that W. was patrolling the Alabama coast line in his flying machine to protect us from the threat of the North Vietnamese navy. But I could be wrong.
Mike:
Say what you will, but not one NVA patrol boat ever attacked Gulf Shores with “Fearless Leader” in the sky overhead!
Now Mike Appleton, define “his flying machine” that is where some peoples reality differs from others.
The other part is he was in the ANG, or wasn’t he? He was paid for that we can be assured. And as a former governmental employee I will most assure you that a lot of people got paid and never showed up. With that said, can you answer the 2nd part?
Was Geo, the Duke of Midland, the prince in waiting aka Geo W. AWOL or not at the same time that he was paid?
Mespo, LMAO.
AY, I don’t know the answer to your question, but from all that I’ve read, I suspect that he was primarily engaged in political activities as a surrogate for his father. Plus, given his family’s position, I’m sure he had a lot of leeway. I knew a number of people who wanted to get into the National Guard because of the draft. The general consensus then was that it was virtually an impossibility unless you knew someone. The Army, however, didn’t have a waiting list.
That’s true Mike, but he was still flying in commercial and private jets to conduct family business, so technically, he was flying. And as mespo pointed out, there were no attacks on that shoreline–proving once again, that if GWB has a stategy to avoid attacks, it will work.
Define “his flying machine” . I am of the understanding that he was imbibing that there white powdery controlled substance at that time.
To be fair to W he was an interceptor pilot and during the late 60′s and early 70′s flying jets was much more dangerous than it is today. He had to go to flight school where not everyone lives to go on to fly jets. So while he did not go to Vietnam he did put himslf in harms way for the US.
He also did put in to go to Vietnam and was turned down. If I understand the AWOL issue I was under the impression that his tour in the Guard was just about up and he was allowed to go work on his dad’s congressional campaign by his superior.
“That’s why s/he needs to have integrity.” re: the AG
I haven’t seen anything, except for speculation based on word parsing that shows me any proof the AG Holder lacks integrity.
If not moving speedily to prosecute means lacking integrity, then special Prosecutor FitzGerald may indeed lack same, only I didn’t see many negative comments about him when he was going after Libby and took 2 1/2 years to do it, ending with nothing and covering up the real culprits. In fact there have been many on this site who have called for his being named Special Prosecutor in these matters.
I’ve actually worked in government and my last three years working for NYC were as Deputy director of The Office of fiscal and Program Integrity of the Human Resources Administration. We actually worked with legal entities to put people in jail, or have them fired for corruption. The expectation that 100 days into an Administration, with a DOJ rife with Bush holdovers, things aren’t moving quickly enough is blindly unrealistic and seems more motivated by a need for instant gratification.
Lest I be mis-characterized in this, please refer to my plethora of comments urging dissent from any suggestions of not prosecuting these crimes and my calls (many literally made to the WH by me)for people, like Jonathan and the ACLU, to keep the pressure on President Obama. The fact that I know from experience how Government works and the slow grind of the “wheels of justice” does not give me X Ray vision into this matter. If instead of the knee jerk reaction of he’s let me down, he’s a phony, or he’s one of them, perhaps really thinking about process in one’s own mind might get someone to see this is not a matter easily or quickly disposed of.
Damn, how many years did it take to get Phil Spector’s case tried and how many years between arrest and trial occur in the typical murder case? Humanity has no heroes, only flawed human beings that occasionally rise to a level of greatness.
My earliest hero Clarence Darrow was a lawyer who did great things, but had many personal flaws as I read up on him. I prefer people who are flawed because as the James Garner line went from the great 70′s anti-war film “The Americanization of Emily”
“God save us from the idealists of the world…they’re the ones who get everyone else’s back broken.”
I personally am someone who has lived up to most of my ideals in my life and trust me I’m not ready for canonization. There are many who’ve known me that will attest to this, including my wife. Sometimes the ideal solution turns out to be the horribly wrong one. i.e. Don’t vote for sellout Humphrey, as we elect madman Nixon. All I’m asking for is a little patience and a little reality and I’m immune to arguments about how can we go on when people are being tortured. If that’s the case then dqamn it, nothing should be done until we eliminate genocide in Africa and the debilitation of world poverty, sickness and hunger. One person being tortured is tragic and wrong, billions of humans living the way they do is beyond conception. some people see triage as evil, having been in very sick in many ER’s I’m glad they treated me before the person with the compound fracture.
Mespo, JT,
How can you forget the FIRST film to mock Hitler, You Natzi Spy.
“That’s why s/he needs to have integrity.” re: the AG
I haven’t seen anything, except for speculation based on word parsing that shows me any proof the AG Holder lacks integrity. If not moving speedily to prosecute means lacking integrity, then special Prosecutor FitzGerald may indeed lack same, only I didn’t see many negative comments about him when he was going after Libby and took 2 1/2 years to do it, ending with nothing and covering up the real culprits. In fact there have been many on this site who have called for his being named Special Prosecutor in these matters.
I’ve actually worked in government and my last three years working for NYC were as Deputy Director of The Office of Fiscal and Program Integrity of the Human Resources Administration. We actually worked with legal entities to put people in jail, or have them fired for corruption. The expectation that 100 days into an Administration, with a DOJ rife with Bush holdovers, things aren’t moving quickly enough is blindly unrealistic and seems more motivated by a need for instant gratification, than an understanding of how the law works.
Lest I be mis-characterized in this, please refer to my plethora of comments urging dissent from any suggestions of not prosecuting these crimes and my calls (many literally made to the WH by me)for people, like Jonathan and the ACLU, to keep the pressure on President Obama. The fact that I know from experience how Government works and the slow grind of the “wheels of justice” does not give me X Ray vision into this matter. If instead of the knee jerk reaction of: he’s let me down, he’s a phony, or he’s one of them, perhaps really thinking about process in one’s own mind might get someone to see this is not a matter easily or quickly disposed of.
Damn, how many years did it take to get Phil Spector’s case tried and how many years between arrest and trial occur in the typical murder case? Humanity has no heroes, only flawed human beings that occasionally rise to a level of greatness.
My earliest hero Clarence Darrow was a lawyer who did great things, but had many personal flaws as I read up on him. I prefer people who are flawed because as the James Garner line went from the great 70′s anti-war film “The Americanization of Emily”
“God save us from the idealists of the world…they’re the ones who get everyone else’s back broken.”
I personally am someone who has lived up to most of my ideals in my life and trust me I’m not ready for canonization. There are many who’ve known me that will attest to this, including my wife. Sometimes the ideal solution turns out to be the horribly wrong one. i.e. Don’t vote for sellout Humphrey, as we elect madman Nixon.
All I’m asking for is a little patience and a little reality and I’m immune to arguments about how can we go on when people are being tortured. If that’s the case then damn it, nothing should be done until we eliminate genocide in Africa and the debilitation of world poverty, sickness and hunger. One person being tortured is tragic and wrong, billions of humans living the way they do is beyond conception. some people see triage as evil, having been very sick in many ER’s I’m glad they treated me before the person with the compound fracture.
Gyges,
I’ve been a lifelong hater of the comedy of the Three Stooges. One of the worst afternoons of my childhood occurred when my projectionist Uncle took me to his theater and The Three Stooges Go to Mars was playing. I shudder as I think back to having to watch that movie twice and then give him a phony smile and thank him for a nice day. Humbug!
Mike,
Nobody’s perfect.
Mike S.,
My statement that an AG needs intergity should not be interpreted as Holder does not have intergrity. It means that that position is so important that the person in it needs to have strong intergrity. If a president askes that person to do something unlawful then that person should resign and report the request. That is true of Holder. It was true of Alberto Gonzales. It was true of Elliot Richardson under Nixon.
“Mike Spindell,
Are you on Linkdn?”
AY,
What’s that? Don’t you realize your addressing an old codger here?
Well, I have to agree with the old hippie, I hated the 3 Stooges.
Froggy the Gremlin, and the Little Rascals were my heroes, along with Roy, Gene, Hoppy, Davy Crockett, the Beav (Leave it to Beaver), Audie Murphy, and above all, the Famous Mr. Ed.
This is another take on what politics involves. It includes the view of other nations regarding our lack of prosecution and how this effects international politics. We tend to forget how the rest of the world sees the US. Perhaps this is a bad idea.
http://www.commondreams.org/video/2009/04/28
“Either Obama has made an illegal request for Holder to not prosecute and the AG doesn’t have the integity to resign and report the president or the AG should act as he is charged by enforcing our clear law on war crimes.”
Jill,
Context is everything and there’s your context. My comment was addressing that contention.
FFLEO,
Loved Froggy and the Rascals, particularly Alfalfa and Darla.
Loved Roy because of the Science fiction Serial he made, whose name I forget. Didn’t like Mr. Ed, but loved the rest. Audie couldn’t act but you had to love him for his war record. Buster Crabbe also was a favorite. Beside Davy C., I loved the Nine Lives of Elfego Vaca and Spin and Marty on the Disney Show. Always hated Mickey Mouse though because Donald Duck was my favorite. Liked Bugs Bunny better than anything Disney did, except for his great nature movies.
FFLEO,
On the same off thread topic I’ve always been a sucker for Alamo movies, even though the history is not quite accurate. By the way Donovan, of all people has done the definitive Alamo song. Brings tears to my eyes every time I hear it.
Darn you Gyges. Your memory is as good as your taste in comedy. Whoop, whoop!
Donovan “Remember The Alamo”
for FFLEO
Loved Spin and Marty. Would have wed Annette Funicello in a minute, but my parents forbade me from marriage at the age of eleven.
What happened to my Youtube link? I’m going swimming.
Mespo,
I actually like “I’ll Never Heil Again” a little better, but figured the first was more historically important.
Mike A.
“but my parents forbade me from marriage at the age of eleven.”
______________
Yeah, a guy just caint help what religion he was ‘borned’ under and in what country.
______________
Mike S.
I went to YT. Good song and lyrics.