Pete Williams is reporting that Republicans are threatening to expose Attorney General Eric Holder’s role in renditions during the Clinton Administration if he pursues an investigation into torture. Imagine that: raw political retaliation could finally give civil libertarians a full investigation of this country’s long-concealed abuses.
It is now clear that our mistake for the last eight years has been to call upon members to follow their conscience and principles. We should have expressed human rights in terms of a good way to embarrass your opponents.
Senators Lamar Alexander of Tennessee and Richard Shelby of Alabama pressed Holder on the CIA’s “rendition” program under the Clinton Administration and demanded figures, which Holder promised to supply.
When is Holder going to stop this farce and allow a disinterested special prosecutor to investigate this matter? Until then, we will continue to see political ploys in both parties continue to diminish our standing in the world. At the moment, this entire controversy is being treated as a political contest by both Democrats and Republicans.
Ironically, the muscle play may backfire. Holder and Obama have already been accused for promising Bush officials before the inauguration that they would privately block any investigation or prosecution into torture. Their actions since then have only reaffirmed those statements by Senators and CIA officials. Now, if Holder does not investigate, it will be viewed as knuckling under to avoid personal embarrassment into his own actions during the Clinton administration.
For the full story, click here.
Forgive me for repeating myself, but that Yankee from Weare, New Hampshire will be available soon for the Special Prosecutor position.
How ironic. The blackmail of black males; Holder and Obama.
CCD,
Justice Souter is indeed the man for the job. The time is now.
FFLEO,
That was good.
Do I think a strategy is in play? Yes.
Do I think that there are a lot of people involved? Yes.
Do I think that when people want you to say something anything and you don’t they become scared? Yes.
Do I think that when people become scared they will start dribbling from the mouth and start to get scared and say some really good things? Yes.
Do I think that this is going on here? Yes.
Is it time to Castle the Queens Rook?
Castling is one of those mysterious chess moves that many people, both chess players and non-chess players, don’t understand: when to, how to and when you can’t. In an encounter between C.J.S. Purdy and Yuri Averbach, as reported in Chess World 1960, Purdy castled Queenside, whereupon Averbach pointed out that Purdy’s Rook had crossed an attacked square. It is hard to imagine the look on Purdy’s face as he tried to diplomatically tell the leading Soviet Grandmaster that that particular rule only applied to the king.
Think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the blackmail of everyone. There has to be one good person in this govt. who will step up to the plate and if they are guilty, which I’m pretty certain they are, will do the right thing even if it means jail time. In every group there is usually someone of courage. If blackmail is what it takes to light a fire under these people’s butts, that’s fine by me.
FFLEO,
I don’t see what race/ethnicity has to do with any of this. Bush and Cheney are white. It’s a full rainbow involved in this corruption. That’s why I have always thought it was a mistake to vote for anyone based on gender, ethnicity, race or sexual orientation. The Bush administration was probably the most diverse ever (even if alot of their people are in the closet), but they all share one trait–the willingness to commit evil.
JILL,
FFLEO was just making a play on words. That is all? Correct FFLEO?
Jill,
Relax a little. FFLEO was just enjoying being punny. I’d have said it myself if he hadn’t beat me to it. While there are those who feel that puns should be a matter for criminal prosecution, I say we table that until the whole “Violate the Constitution/Torture” issue is resolved.
Anony and Jill,
Yes, it was just a play on words.
Senators Lamar Alexander of Tennessee and Richard Shelby of Alabama pressed Holder on the CIA’s “rendition” program under the Clinton Administration and demanded figures, which Holder promised to supply.
This reminds me of when Bush first got into office,the mantra of cover then as it seems to be happening now.
“Clinton did it”
If this keeps up,I expect to hear”Iran/Contra”before the day is done.
Buddha et al.
Prof. T’s, your, and many others’ witticisms far exceed mine. That is why this blawg is both legally informative and hilariously entertaining. I lived 6 decades before I finally learned that what others always told me was factual; I was too darn serious.
When I observe the intellect of a Jonathan Turley, complemented with his self-effacing humility and wit, I realize the principal characteristics comprising an exceptionally well-rounded and grounded human being, representative of the ultimate v. the penultimate qualities of a man.
What I find interesting, though hardly surprising, is that there was some sort of torture being used under the Clinton administration. How naive of us to think that this notion of torture sprung full-blown from the febrile brains of Bush and Cheney. WE can date the use of torture, I think, back to those
fearful days of the Cold War. It was no doubt one of those highly Top Secret items passed from administration to administration. Always with the same ticking time bomb scenario as justification. If we ever are to deal with it, than those of us in opposition to it, need to separate mythology from reality.
As an analogy, we know that the freedoms called for in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, were actually theoretical for most Americans, slaves and indigenous peoples. Yet of necessity we must act as if these traditions have always been the American Way and argue the case for their expansion and continuance.
By the same token WWII, which was as “just” a war as can be, had us in league with Stalin, a man who killed as many as Hitler and was arguably just as crazy. While we piously produced the necessary Nuremberg Trials, we had ourselves engaged in much barbarity who punishment we escaped through winning the War. This is true when it comes to all wars, which are all exercises in barbarism, whether “just” or not.
To me, while I believe our torture to be evil, unacceptable and deserving grave punishment, the greater Bush/Cheney crime was in entangling us in a war that had no justification, thus setting up the conditions that allowed for our barbarity.
As we fight the battle to make America into the land that was imagined by our founding fathers and their intellectual heirs, we must keep these distinctions clear in our minds.
The failure to do so will lead us into dead ends, as we face the self serving justifications of the sadists/macho minds among us, that will use past actions as justifications for current excess.
Does anyone out there, knowing the history, doubt that Nixon infected his cadre to act illegally, by the justification that every President did this? He had been there, he was the
“old man” so who in his administration would doubt him or the truth of his words. Learning at his feet were Rumsfeld,
Cheney, G.H.W. Bush and a cast of hundreds. How much of a coincidence then, when these loyalists saw their hero brought low, that they implemented his beliefs when they returned to power. By the same token, Bill Clinton, obscure governor with no foreign policy interest and experience, was “broken in” by these “wise” souls and taught to behave as they said a President should.
The battle therefore is as always twofold:
1. Convince the majority of the need to have a government that lives up to its stated ethics and ideals.
2. Punish the stupid “know it all’s” who would have us falsely believe that they know how to keep the world safe.
“disinterested special prosecutor” is a myth, like bigfoot or… well I was going to say “a compassionate conservitave”
At this point anyone who would be appointed would be wielding a political loaded gun that NOONE except those interested in Justice wants to go off. It’s not in any Politician’s best interest for Justice to be served, so she won’t be.
MAS,
That’s why Souter is perfect.
Think about his current status as well as his past actions. He has all the skill and literally no political skin in the game.
And Bigfoot said to tell you, “Arrrrooo!” Grunt. Flail ground with stick.
MAS,
Not if the citizens of this country don’t cave in. Our govt. wishes us to believe we have no voice in this matter. They use every tool available to convince us we are powerless. It’s a mistake to believe the propaganda.
First, we have to stop believing there will be a special prosecutor without push back from citizens. Then each and every time this govt. tries to appoint some obvious lackey or squirm out of their Constitutional duty to prosecute in the first place, we need to push back even harder.
According to the ACLU (see attached) there is a statue of limitations coming up on some of these war crimes. All the more reason to stop stalling and start squalling! We aren’t as helpless as we’re told.
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/torture/39054res20090317.html
Jill,
Statutes of limitation; yes, that to which we nonlawyers keep referring.
Keep up your squallin’ Ma’am, ’cause I is ‘bout all squalled out….
Buddha,
As I’m fond of saying, the only bad pun is the one you didn’t make first.
You are exactly as powerless as you believe yourself to be.
Is help on the way?:
http://christyhardinsmith.firedoglake.com/2009/05/08/olc-holder-steps-up-to-the-plate-for-dawn-johnsens-nomination/#comments
I’m reposting a clip from mine under JT’s /2009/02/07/ article ‘leon-panetta-pledges-that-no-cia-employees-will-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes/’
Patty C 1, February 7, 2009 at 5:34 pm
JT, great interview with KO last night. You look trim!??
I apologize in advance for the length of my post, but it is my only defense against the hand-wringing I encounter here on an almost daily basis. Please indulge me ;p
I heard another interview recently with Glenn Greenwald, I believe, who made it sound like renditions started under ‘43′, George W. That’s not true, if that’s what he was implying.
Renditions occurred at least a dozen times under Clinton, from what I’ve understood, but the distinction being made is against the ‘extraordinary’ style renditions and the torture program making the US famous.
However, if we were to start investigating renditions, we’d have to go back and look at ‘41′, George H.W. Bush, who was also a former head of the CIA.
Below is an ‘05 ABC article and a ‘07 statement before House Foreign Affairs from former CIA counterterrorism Agent, Michael Scheuer, who started the renditions program under Clinton, where he says…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200512/s1539284.htm
CIA renditions began under Clinton: agent
“The US Central Intelligence Agency’s (CIA) controversial “rendition” program was launched under US president Bill Clinton, a former US counter-terrorism agent has told a German newspaper.
Michael Scheuer, a 22-year veteran of the CIA who resigned from the agency in 2004, has told Die Zeit that the US administration had been looking in the mid-1990s for a way to combat the terrorist threat and circumvent the cumbersome US legal system.
“President Clinton, his national security adviser Sandy Berger and his terrorism adviser Richard Clark ordered the CIA in the autumn of 1995 to destroy Al Qaeda,” Mr Scheuer said.
“We asked the president what we should do with the people we capture. Clinton said ‘That’s up to you’.”
Mr Scheuer, who headed the CIA unit that tracked Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden from 1996 to 1999, says he developed and led the “renditions” program…”
————-
foreignaffairs.house.gov
/110/sch041707.htm
The Rendition Program
The CIA’s Rendition Program began in late summer, 1995. I authored it, and then ran and managed it against al-Qaeda leaders and other Sunni Islamists from August, 1995, until June, 1999.
A.) There were only two goals for the program:
1.) Take men off the street who were planning or had been involved in attacks on U.S. or its allies.
2.) Seize hard-copy or electronic documents in their possession when arrested; Americans were never expected to read them.
3.) Interrogation was never a goal under President Clinton. Why?
–Because it would be a foreign intelligence or security service without CIA present or in control.
–Because the take from the interrogation would be filtered by the service holding the individual, and we would never know if it was complete or distorted.
–Because torture might be used and the information might be simply what an individual thought we wanted to hear
B.) The Rendition Program was initiated because President Clinton, and Messrs. Lake, Berger, and Clarke requested that the CIA begin to attack and dismantle AQ. These men made it clear that they did not want to bring those captured to the U.S. and hold them in U.S. custody…”
What was the end result of these programs under Clinton?
The reason I ask is,that I don’t remember any breaking news of any plots that were uncovered during his tenure.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/195678
eniobob, thanks for the Newsweek cite. Maybe Mukasey unwittingly did the country a favor by appointing John Durham to investigate the destruction of the interrogation tapes. I remain convinced that it will all come together, but over many months and with overlapping investigations.
The hamhanded threats of Sen. Alexander and Sen. Shelby reflect the corrupt cynicism of people who have occupied their positions for too long. These gentlemen obviously believe that when there is evidence of crimes committed by members of both political parties, it is appropriate to cover up some of them by implicitly conspiring to cover up all of them. And if these gentlemen had information concerning criminal violations by members of the Clinton administration, why didn’t they fulfill their constitutional duties at that time, particularly when they controlled both houses of Congress and the chairmanships of all of the relevant committees? One hand may wash the other, but it is wearisome to continually see that excuse dragged out of the ethical basement to justify congressional failures.
One would think that the blank check handed to Kennth Starr to investigate every detail of Clinton’s life, both private and professional, would have resulted in at least a mention of such monumental wrongdoing as extraordinary rendition or complicity in torture. Mr. Starr certainly was given both the time and the unlimited amounts of money necessary to turn over every rock in Clinton’s past.
MASkeptic
1, May 8, 2009 at 11:10 am
“disinterested special prosecutor”
“anyone who would be appointed would be wielding a political loaded gun that NOONE except those interested in Justice wants to go off. …”
Two words: Judge Judy. I’m only half kidding. The problem with talking about a special prosecutor is we keep going back to the same poisoned well of political insiders. Is the US so bankrupt of fine legal minds and patriots that not one person of high reputation and clean credentials can’t be found? Souter IMO would be a good investigator but suffers the taint of close association and probably the expectation of having an agenda. Possibly a special prosecutor’s board having several people could be set up. We are limited in our choice by our imagination only.
BTW, I’m happy the Republicans have started a campaign of public blackmail- it may back Holder and Obama into a corner wherein he or the President is forced to appoint some 3rd party in a prosecutor role. Keep up the good work wingnut Repubs, keep that pressure on!
As Chimpy Bush used to say – “Bring it on”….Since the republicans CAN’T investigate anything given their status as, at best, a pimple on the butt of history.
1) As has been pointed out dozens of times; the United States military has trained over 40,000 troops using severe & harsh interrogation methods since the late 1970’s
2) This training has been investigated by Congress any number of times and approval was granted and funding was provided the Congress all those years.
3) Nothing that we did to three terrorists exceeded what the United States Government did to our own 40,000 troops in 1) above.
That means either
1) Congress has permitted the US Military to “torture” 40,000 US troops since the late 1970’s voicing no objections. Nor did any in Congress demand accountability and the application of law against “torture – therefor all of Congress is guilty of torture.
OR
2) The training 40,000 US troops have undergone WAS NOT TORTURE, therefor the harsh interrogation used on 3 terrorists WAS NOT TORTURE.
You pick the answer……….
“Pete Williams is reporting that Republicans are threatening to expose Attorney General Eric Holder’s role in renditions during the Clinton Administration if he pursues an investigation into torture.”
***************
“That its original institutions are no longer adapted to a city that has become corrupted, is plainly seen in two matters of great moment, I mean in the appointment of magistrates and in the passing of laws. For the Roman people conferred the consulship and other great offices of their State on none save those who sought them; which was a good institution at first, because then none sought these offices save those who thought themselves worthy of them, and to be rejected was held disgraceful; so that, to be deemed worthy, all were on their best behaviour. But in a corrupted city this institution grew to be most mischievous. For it was no longer those of greatest worth, but those who had most influence, who sought the magistracies; while all who were without influence, however deserving, refrained through fear.”
…
“This was a good system so long as the citizens were good, since it is always well that every man should be able to propose what he thinks may be of use to his country, and that all should be allowed to express their views with regard to his proposal; so that the people, having heard all, may resolve on what is best. But when the people grew depraved, this became a very mischievous institution; for then it was only the powerful who proposed laws, and these not in the interest of public freedom but of their own authority; and because, through fear, none durst speak against the laws they proposed, the people were either deceived or forced into voting their own destruction.”
…
“For to effect a gradual reform requires a sagacious man who can discern mischief while it is still remote and in the germ. But it may well happen that no such person is found in a city; or that, if found, he is unable to persuade others of what he is himself persuaded. For men used to live in one way are loath to leave it for another, especially when they are not brought face to face with the evil against which they should guard, and only have it indicated to them by conjecture. And as for a sudden reform of institutions which are seen by all to be no longer good, I say that defects which are easily discerned are not easily corrected,…”
–Niccolo Machiavelli, “Discourses on the First Decade of Titus Livius,” trans. Allan Gilbert, book 1, chapter 18 (1965).
Call me chicken little, but I notice parallels in the words of that old Italian consiliarius.
mespo,
Nice pick. Most people tend forget Niccolo wrote more than one book.
Buddha:
Right you are, and this one is wonderful. He knew a thing or two about decaying societies. He is also the authentic “Nostradamus.”
mespo,
I thought you might find this article interesting. I have to appreciate it when my love of books and my love of science come together. Especially in such a spectacular and beneficial way.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124173896716198603.html
Mespo,
You Machiavelli quote was beyond appropriate and sums up what some of us have been saying on this topic. That it referenced Imperial Rome only underlined the aptness for what we face today. Part of the mistake that some well intentioned partisans make in their justifiable passion for justice, is that these overwhelming good v. evil issues of today, are merely a continuation of humanity’s age old battle to rise above our baser, lizard brain nature, into a world where justice and equity are predominant. A apt analogy to me are both the French and Russian Revolutions.
Nowhere was there a more deserving of punishment nobility than in these venues and yet the speed of the victory brought with it excesses that equaled those being overthrown.
It takes time and wisdom to do this right and the torture angle was only a part of the evils and excess of Bush/Cheney.
There is so much in our system to fix and that is a process not aided by impatience. That Buddha and now myself are the only ones to comment on your gem, illustrates the difficulty of putting the present into historical context.
Re-posted from another thread.
Buddha:
mespo,
“I thought you might find this article interesting.”
**********
I did indeed.
Buddha,
Great catch and exciting news. Could you imagine though the reaction of the Regressive’s if our Government put a billion or so into the effort? Documenting humanity’s past is as important as any project can be, if only to expose to successive generations, that history provides context for everything else.
Gratzi mespo:
I am deeply appreciative of the education you so liberally, generously and genuinely supply. Machiavelli was one smart Italiano, no doubt he too would appreciate the contextual usage of the passage you cite.
CCD:
The downfall of Man is that he forgets. It is a preventable oblivion. Those ancients couldn’t tell a handheld from a UNIVAC but they understood how a society is programmed — and perhaps Machiavelli was the best of them all.
Thanks Mike S, I am glad you and Buddha and CCD enjoyed it. I thought I owed you all some serious content since I ‘ve just been posting short comments lately. Damn trial schedule. I’ll keep plugging away and hopefully, like the blind pig, find an acorn or two.
mESPO:
Very interesting thought, and I agree with the conclusions. But probably for different reasons.
mespo727272, I think you succeeded in finding a truffle! Fascinating article- forensic anthropology at its best, I also wish the govt would throw some money in that direction.
CCD:
Your are very kind and I apologize for not acknowledging your kindness sooner. You should know that everyone here, even our trollish friends, play a role in our education. Here are some words from my favorite author, R. W. Emerson, illustrating more eloquently than I could ever imagine, this very point:
“Is it a reply to these suggestions to say, Society is a Pestalozzian school: all are teachers and pupils in turn? We are equally served by receiving and by imparting. Men who know the same things are not long the best company for each other. But bring to each an intelligent person of another experience, and it is as if you let off water from a lake by cutting a lower basin. It seems a mechanical advantage, and great benefit it is to each speaker, as he can now paint out his thought to himself. We pass very fast, in our personal moods, from dignity to dependence. And if any appear never to assume the chair, but always to stand and serve, it is because we do not see the company in a sufficiently long period for the whole rotation of parts to come about. As to what we call the masses, and common men,- there are no common men. All men are at last of a size; and true art is only possible on the conviction that every talent has its apotheosis somewhere. Fair play and an open field and freshest laurels to all who have won them! But heaven reserves an equal scope for every creature. Each is uneasy until he has produced his private ray unto the concave sphere and beheld his talent also in its last nobility and exaltation.”
–Ralph Waldo Emerson, from the essay, “Uses of Great Men,” found in the book “Representative Men.” (1850)
There are no common men (and women), indeed. Read more here:
http://www.emersoncentral.com/repmen.htm
Mespo72Cubed,
How are you doing this fine evening?
AY:
Basking in the glow of a fine win by my Penguins over the hapless Capitols in the NHL playoffs. I wanted a blow out but an OT win will do nicely. Et tu?
mespo, Thank you. The virtue of a quote like the one you posted is that the every thought that makes up the whole can be lifted as a sentence or two and stand alone as a wisdom unto itself. Thanks for the link.
“Every thought that makes up the whole can be lifted as a sentence or two and stand alone as a wisdom unto itself.” lottakatz
So true, and so here goes.
“Other men are lenses through which we read our own minds. Each man seeks those of different quality from his own, and such as are good of their kind…,” “There is a power in love to divine another’s destiny better than that other can, and, by heroic encouragements, hold him to his task. What has friendship so signal as its sublime attraction to whatever virtue is in us? We will never more think cheaply of ourselves, or of life.”
R.W. Emerson.
Feel f r e e to contact the White House.
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
or
202-456-1111
or
http://www.whitehouse.gov/CONTACT/
lottakatz:
“Classical quotation is the parole of literary men all over the world.”
–Samuel Johnson, as quoted in Boswell’s Life of Johnson (May 8th, 1781)
And literary women too, it would seem.