Various news sites are reporting that a Christian man, Ishtiaq Masih, was beaten to death in Pakistan’s Punjab province for buying a cup of tea in a Muslim-only tea stall.
The owner is a Mubarak Ali, 42, who put up a sign in Machharkay village saying that non-Muslims had to identify themselves when approaching the stall. When Masih’s cross was noticed around his neck, the owner called on people to attack him. Here is how the International Christian Concern (ICC) described it: “When Ishtiaq went to pay for his tea, the owner noticed that he was wearing a necklace with a cross and grabbed him, calling for his employees to bring anything available to beat him for violating a sign posted on the stall warning non-Muslims to declare their religion before being served. . . The owner and 14 of his employees beat Ishtiaq with stones, iron rods and clubs, and stabbed him multiple times with kitchen knives as Ishtiaq pleaded for mercy.”
For the full story, click here.
And they wonder about us?
Dang, I wonder if you have a coupon and did not declare it before ordering what they would do to your food? Humm, PLease tell the clerk in advance if you are ordering with a coupon. Why? A special key ion the register, you get less, they do something to it? I will make sure I take my ring off before ordering.
Boycott businesses owned by Muslims.
Well now I can see this happening at Starbucks as they seek to regain there respective market share.
If you did that in Wayne County Michigan. You have no options except for one in Eastern Wayne County.
“Forget about your brotherly otherly love … what you need is … motherly love … c’mon and get it now … motherly love”
Mothers of Invention
I know this is off topic but do you all realize how much insurance companies have invested in Tobacco Companies and Tobacco Companies have invested in Insurance Companies? Make sure one covers both ends of the market what do you say?
IS,
Boycott businesses owned by Muslims.
By that logic, because a Christian killed Dr. Tiller, we should also boycott Christian businesses.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to boycott a business. Starbucks hasn’t gotten a dime from me since I found out how they treated employees. Wal-Mart? I’d sooner buy from slavers. The religious beliefs of the owners are not a valid reason to boycott unless their religion endorses human sacrifice or cannibalism as a current practice. Otherwise your logic leads to an Ouroboros of self-perpetuating intolerance and you punish moderates of both faiths (or any faith for that matter) who are appalled by someone being killed for such a ridiculous reason.
How about boycotting zealotry instead? Address the cause instead of aggravating the symptoms.
Are you certain of the veracity of the claims made by the article? The source you cite (worthynews.com) isn’t exactly impartial or absent of interest. These Christian groups exploit anything they can, regardless of whether or not it is true.
BL:
While I certainly agree that there are zealots in all faiths, the fruit on the tree of Islam is spoiled. Are there good people that practice the faith, certainly. But overall there is something fundamentally wrong with Islam. Trouble follows them like Pig Pens cloud of dirt through their entire history.
This story is not an isolated incidence. If I can make an analogy: If a golden retriever bites a child one looks at the reason the individual dog bit the child. If a pit bull bites a child one does not look at the individual but the breed. Are all pit bulls bad, no. Are all golden retrievers good, no. But one is bread for fighting and the other for loving.
Maybe if the world rises up against this type of behavior it will cease.
Islam is at the same stage that Christianity was when it was hanging witches and burning heretics.
Although apparently Christians are burning 5 year old witches in Africa so maybe Christianity is not much better.
IS,
You really don’t want to start the whole bad history comparison, do you? Seriously, your bias (pro-Christian/anti-Muslim) is showing. It won’t end well because that topic has come up many more times than once here and inevitably the analysis comes back that there’s plenty of bad behavior done in EVERY “God’s” name. The texts of both religions can and have been used as a justification for violence and oppression to varying degrees. The construction of the New Testament is in itself a political construct that reflects the bias and agendas of the members of the Council of Nicea. The documents that the most rabid fundamentalist Muslims use to justify their crimes is not from their primary book, but comes from a later ancillary clerical work – also a document that is more political than it is religious. The problem isn’t any one religion. It’s all religions. In that it is all religions, it becomes relevant to look at the commonality of the trouble makers in an attempt at diagnosis. The axis of commonality comes back to zealots and fundamentalist of every flavor. That’s why the Founding Fathers were so careful to construct Freedom of Religion as they did.
IS,
I agree that there appears to be a pro-Christian (perhaps as you see it Judeo-Christian) bias showing. This, if true, was an occurrence at one shop somewhere in Pakistan. You can’t take that as a worldwide phenomenon. The reality is that fundamentalism in all religions breeds intemperance. I’m not saying that either as a militant atheist, which of course I’m not, but as an observer (in my own mind at least) of history.
The case might be made for instance that historically Islam has treated Jews far better than has Christianity and there are many points in favor of this. As a Jew though, I know my own people and I know for a fact that Fundamentalist Jews for the most part would be no better than their Christian, Muslim and Hindu counterparts if they had a place where they had full power. Fanaticism and zealotry from all faiths is the enemy of humanity’s peaceful coexistence and has been the cause of almost all of the Earth’s wars.
It must be emphasized that my position on this is not one of coming from some idealistic unreality of why can’t we all just live together in brotherhood, as appealing as that prospect may be. The historical record clearly shows that fanaticism and zealotry of all philosophical/political modes causes death and destruction. While heredity may have hard wired us for xenophobia, it is always exploited by the sociopaths among us. Religious zealotry seems to attract the sociopathic with constant dire results. Until humans solve the problem of seeing ourselves as a human race in its entirety, we will always have sociopaths “rule the roost.” The problem with religion is that many followers fail to understand the underlying philosophy and instead want to play the “us vs. them” game.
BIL:
“there’s plenty of bad behavior done in EVERY “God’s” name.”
I certainly cannot disagree with that statement.
But we dont see many Muslims getting Nobel Prizes or producing world class science or art or literature. Jews do and so do Christians and atheists.
I say there is some fundamental philosophical problem with Islam to cause this level of discord. It probably has to do with a disrespect for life on this earth. And I will admit that to the extent that Jews and Christians believe this life is a training excercise it extends to them as well.
Mike Spindell:
My wife says that the ones with the bad mental health tend to rule relationships.
Good points on the sociopathic nature of leadership and control.
IS,
“But we dont see many Muslims getting Nobel Prizes or producing world class science or art or literature. Jews do and so do Christians and atheists.”
You need to read more about the history of science. Nobel Prizes are not how one should evaluate a societies contribution to science. Science happened long before Alfred’s conscience got to him. That statement of your is bigoted and borderline racist. Also wildly incorrect. You don’t think Muslims have contributed to science? Start here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists
“I say there is some fundamental philosophical problem with Islam to cause this level of discord. It probably has to do with a disrespect for life on this earth. And I will admit that to the extent that Jews and Christians believe this life is a training excercise it extends to them as well.”
That’s just simply ignorant. I’d reply more than that, but you’re obviously not familiar with the book which you malign. It be like talking about engineering to a fish. It’s clear your knowledge of Islam comes from propaganda rather than doing the work of researching the topic yourself.
Islam is a LOT like Christianity in the respect that there are many flavors. Within those different flavors, there are often wide disparities in levels of belief, from casual almost non-practicing to zealot. And guess what? Not all Muslim’s are crazies bent on forcing you to worship Allah, believe it or not. Just like not all Christians are going to commit the ultimate oxymoron crime and murder someone because they are pro-life. At best, you are myopic and ill-informed about which you speak. At worst, you’re an intolerant un-Christ-like bigot with an anti-Muslim agenda – a troll. I guess we’ll find out where you fall on that spectrum.
And to think I believed Seinfeld’s soup Nazi was arbitrary.
BIL:
I am sorry, but where are the Noble Prize winners? Certainly many Muslims contribute to science and in fact back a 1000 years ago our western civilization benefited from their contributions.
I just looked at a few randomly and they appear to be ancestors of those converted by the sword.
We can go round and round with this and it has nothing to do with racism or bigotry, there is some fundamental flaw with Islam as a religion/philosophy for life.
I am looking at this purely from a philosophical point of view and you immediately label me a racist. A white man or a black man or a red man can have a flawed philosophy and behave badly. Race has nothing to do with this.
I have noticed that quite a few on this site bring everything down to racism or bigotry when they disagree or don’t understand someones comments. It is an effective tool for silencing opposition, as no one wants to be labeled a racist or bigot.
I disagree heartily with the views of Eldridge Cleaver and probably would not care to have lunch with him, on the other hand I think Thomas Sowell is one of the finest living intellectuals today and would buy him lunch anytime he asked. Am I a racist for disagreeing with Eldridge Cleaver? Am I a racist for thinking his philosophy of life sucks?
If you think I am, you have very much to learn or you label people racist because you have no compelling rebuttal.
By the way I have read portions of the Quran and find it to be a very harsh religion, perhaps I have only read the bad parts or maybe my western civilization values colors my interpretation.
How many Islamic countries believe in the sanctity of the individual? How many Christian? Just wondering.
Mike,
The cynic in me wants to say that the problem with any given religion are the people that DO actually take their holy book of choice literally. I don’t think that’s the whole story. I think the essential problem with religion is that it’s a great excuse.
IS,
Do you read much scientific literature (I’m talking peer reviewed journals)?
Gyges:
No but look at the authors, many Indians and Chinese and Europeans and Muslims.
So what is your point?
IS,
I just said that Nobel Prizes are THE WRONG WAY TO JUDGE A COMMUNITIES CONTRIBUTION TO SCIENCE. It shows a complete misunderstanding of the nature and history of science. “Nobel” is not some magic wand. It’s a prize created to encourage science, arts and peace by a man with a guilty conscience for making tools used to kill people. Lots of valuable science happens every day that don’t get the Prize. Much of it just as valuable as the winner’s contributions.
Learn to read AND UNDERSTAND before you comment.
And I won’t call you a racist or a bigot if you don’t act like one. Have any opinion you like. Even wrong ones. But don’t expect civility when those are your choices. You’re blinded to your bias or you encourage it. Either way, not an attractive feature. In your own way, you are as much a zealot as the radical Muslims. You don’t have to be silent. We still have Freedom of Speech. Just expect ridicule when you speak from ignorance and spew pro-Christian/anti-Muslim garbage. In the country envisioned by our Founding Fathers, all Gods – even yours – have no proper place in the governance of men except as a compass for conscience in those incapable of ethical analysis. Killing someone for ordering tea because he believes different than the vendor is ethically wrong; no religious language required to analyze that although you seem to insist upon it by perpetually trying to demonize Islam. I guarantee you there are moderate Muslims just as appalled by that as you, some even more so for they feel shame for the disgrace this murderer brought to Islam. That gentleman last week who made national headlines for giving a robber he got the drop on $40 and a loaf of bread because the erstwhile thief begged, saying he was robbing to feed his family. The clerk showed great compassion. He gave the man money and food and extracted a promise not to rob again. The clerk said his act of incredible generosity and compassion was “what any good Muslim would do.” Do you think this man approves of killing a Christian over tea? Just like there are blogs recently propagated in which moderate Christians have shown their displeasure, embarrassment and disdain for the murder of Dr. Tiller as an unchristian act; a murder. They to wonder, “What part of ‘Thou shalt not kill’ and ‘turn the other cheek’ and ‘God is Love’ don’t you people understand?” Islam is no better nor any worse than any other religion. We are supposed to be a country of laws, not men, and most certainly not gods. No matter what your wishful thinking might be.
BIL and Gyges:
I am wrong there are 6 Muslim Noble Prize winners according to this article.
http://bznotes.wordpress.com/2006/10/13/muslim-nobel-prize-winners/
Gyges,
I wouldn’t try to disabuse you of your thought, there certainly is evidence. However, from my perspective any belief or philosophy, whether religious or secular can be hijacked in the service of fanaticism. I for instance trained/became a Gestalt Psychotherapist and I try to live my life in a Gestalt manner philosophically/emotionally and interactively. As you see though in the Gestalt Prayer below, one could use that formulation in the service of both libertarianism, conservatism or many other ism’s that don’t coincide with my own humanism.
The Gestalt Prayer
Fritz Perls
I do my thing
and you do your thing.
I am not in this world
to live up to your expectations
And you are not in this world
to live up to mine.
You are you and I am I.
And if by chance
we find each other,it’s beautiful,
If not, it can’t be helped.
“My wife says that the ones with the bad mental health tend to rule relationships.”
IS,
What I know about human psychology tends to agree with her.
Just as with addiction, the people with bad mental health and/or addicts tend to dominate the relationships they have.
BIL:
here again you assume too much, I am not particularly religious, live and let live is my motto.
Again you change the subject, I have not denied that there are good people whose religion is Islam.
How many times does one have to say that philosophically there appears to be something wrong with Islam because of the physical manifestations of this religion on earth. Now I will concede that it could be that Saudi Wahhabism has a strangle hold on interpretation.
The end result of a religion or a philosophy of life is to teach people to live in harmony with one another. To the extent that a religion or philosophy accomplishes that it is a success. I see turmoil in Islamic countries, until such time as Muslims disavow what is going on in the name of Islam I will continue to believe there is a fundamental flaw.
Believing there is a flaw is one thing, demonizing the entire Muslim world for the flaw of one man is another. Christianity is deeply flawed as well and has often been used to justify violence, but I don’t see you up in arms about that. One does not have to be “pro” something to be “anti” something. All one has to do to be a bigot is to be wrongly “anti”. In this case, you seemingly cannot escape your anti-Islam bias. Your belief in Christianity to end that is irrelevant. Biased and bigoted is biased and bigoted no matter the source.
BIL:
There are many flawed Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Hindus. Christianity does not have the market in peace and love. And I deplore churchs like Rick Warrens, carnival Christians is what they are.
I am not a Chrisitan chauvinist no matter how many times you may accuse me of it.
As for biased and bigoted, it would make things simple for you and it would all fall into a nice neatly tied package which wouldnt take much to unwrap.
IS,
Well, there are several points I’m going to make, and I just wanted to know your familiarity with science as a process of creating and then spreading knowledge. Just so you know, I’m no expert, just an interested observer (my wife’s a molecular biologist, and I’m just amateur science geeky in general).
I think your proof for showing that “Muslims Don’t Produce world class science,” is extremely bad (setting aside the fact that, no world class Scotsman eats cream with his oats). Although at least you offered proof. There are three categories of “Science” Nobel Prizes given out any year, for a little over 100 years. Most years two awards are given out in one of those three for closely parallel work, so it’s about 428 total. Pub Med has over 18 MILLION citations, dating back to 1948, so there’s a 61 year overlap. Those would mostly fall under the Physiology or Medicine category for the award. Now all of those articles aren’t great science (although to be published in a peer reviewed journal you usually have to be at least good science), but to say that only 70 some odd (estimating 7 years were the two awards happen to be in that catagory) out of 18 million (which is low, PUB med isn’t by any means all encompassing) are World Class science is ridiculous.
Secondly, I’d ask you to consider the possibility that the type of government of a people has WAY more to do with their scientific achievements then their religion. I can expound on this later if you want.
Third, from personal experience: very few scientists hold the dogmatic views of any religion. Most that I’ve met and talked to about the subject are best described as either deists, or naturalistic pantheists, and then there’s a large percentage of atheists in the mix.
And finally, what do you suppose the “fundamental” flaw is?
IS,
I’ll quit accusing you of an anti-Islam bias when you quit showing it. You can’t’ worm your way out it. Bigots and unfounded bias get called out around here. You don’t like the label? You put it on yourself by your actions. You had many ways to attack the wrongness of this man’s killing and you chose to attack the Islam of the attacker instead. You don’t like being called a bigot? Then don’t act like one. That simple enough for you?
Gyges/BIL:
“Secondly, I’d ask you to consider the possibility that the type of government of a people has WAY more to do with their scientific achievements then their religion. I can expound on this later if you want.”
Yes that is so, but why are Muslim countries mostly ruled by despots?
BIL:
In my opinion one of the fundamental flaws is allowing priests/Imams the ability to interpret the Quran. Isnt it about time for a Muslim Martin Luther?
the other is the same as most religions-putting life on earth as a practice session for eternity and that we must subrogate self in the service of others.
I actually dont care if you call me a bigot or not, I imagine you win a lot of arguments that way. Most people will fold or piss themselves trying to apologize. It is very effective strategy. Change the terrain and attack.
IS,
Probably for the same (General) reasons that Latin America, Africa, and parts of Asia are.
IS,
What I’m saying is that historically (And arguably currently), tyrannical forms of government are the rule rather than the exception.
IS,
I don’t care if you get pissed off, bigot. You come in here with a clear anti-Islamic agenda, so you get what’s coming to you. Every criticism you raise can be equally raised against Christianity. Your “argument” is crap. You do nothing but dig yourself in deeper as far as illustrating your bigotry. You are doing exactly what most bigots do when confronted – attempting to rationalize yourself into being the good guy. I’d say good luck with that but succeeding in deluding yourself on that front seems to be thoroughly accomplished.
BL:
I love the smell of bs in the morning, coming off the fields. Fertilizing the hay.
I agree there are Christians that would kill a Jew or a Muslim. I still dont see your point, why does one counteract the other? We were talking about some of the flaws with Islam. I will be happy to discuss the flaws of Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism if you wish. There are certainly many.
I have a friend who was brutalized by her father, a Pentacostal Preacher, she is an atheist and hates religion. She especially despises Christianity.
IS,
I’m still waiting for you to say exactly what the flaw is.
I googled this story and was only able to find it reported on far right or religious web sites. Seems dodgy to me.
IS,
I love the smell of denial. Send me a postcard from that world you live in where bigotry is excusable if you have a rationale (no matter how poorly researched or reasoned). I’m curious as to the sky color. Other than that, you’re proving to be a game of diminishing returns.
Gyges,
He has no specific fault endemic to Islam to point to, just general complaints that can be made about any religion. You’re going to be waiting a long time.
Gyges:
What does religion teach? Mainly that this life on earth is temporary and that man has no true will because he is ultimately controlled by God. Furthemore man is of this world and so by extension not good, look at how many in the Muslim world treat sex and women in general (granted other religions arent high on that hit parade either). Man is worthless and low, look at some of the Islamic religious festivals and how they beat themselves bloody (we are only talking Islam currently). With this attitude is it any wonder they do the things they do?
And certainly this line of thought can be used against other religions.
IS,
O.k. so since we can agree that that’s currently a common flaw between (some sects) of Christianity and Islam… why would that lead to all the things you blame on modern Islam, but not in modern Christianity?
But most other religions are generally tolerant at least in public, we dont see Christians or Jews running around killing people for no good reason on a regular basis. And generally Christians and Jews have a fairly good respect for themselves and others.
We also dont see Christians and Jews stoning apostates to death. And Christians and Jews are fairly tolerant of other religions.
Muslims need to get their house in order and join the rest of the world.
Gyges:
First off I am not a Christian or a Jew or a Hindu or a member of any organized religion, I suppose I am a skeptical deist.
So I see a lot of turmoil in the Muslim world which I don’t see in the Judeo-Christian world and I make a value judgement based on what I see. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour wherever it comes from. Shouldn’t Muslims be held to the same standards of civilized behaviour that other religions are held to or do you and BIL practice the soft racism of low expectations? The kind that so many on the left practice, oh poor little Muslim man you cant help it. You have been oppressed by ____________ (you fill in the blank) and you are too ignorant and unsophisticated to know any better. So let wise, sophisticated, western man teach you a lesson on morals.
Their religion is currently having problems and they need to fix those problems or be shuned by the rest of the human family.
“we dont see Christians or Jews running around killing people for no good reason on a regular basis.”
Oh really.
Timothy McVeigh (white supremest with Christian Identity ideology)
Northern Ireland (The Poster Child for Christian Charity, Compassion and Non-violence. Except for all the car bombs.)
The KKK (part of the Christian Identity movement, they still kill people you know)
The Nazis (a Christian organization among other things, led by a Catholic, snappy dressers)
Disproportionate civilian (as in non-combatant women and children) casualties in Gaza by the Israeli military.
Yeah those Christians and Jews sure have their act together compared to those filthy Muslims when it comes to violence and intolerance. You’ve convinced me in spite of the mountain of history that says otherwise. I capitulate. You’re a genius, sport.
Paging Dr. Tiller . . . Dr. Tiller . . .
Oh, that’s right. You can’t. Because he was killed for no good reason by a Christian for religious reasons, a man who left a note saying that Obama was created and controlled by Jews.
Yeah.
Doh! What’s this dusty old book? Why it’s “The Crusades”! And a book about Vlad Tepes – a fine, fine Christian warrior! Lest we forget the classics . . . “The Spanish Inquisition” by Tomas de Torquemada!
But those filthy Muslims better get their act together.
Uh huh.
BIL:
I have no argument historically, all of those were bad actors/actions.
However Jews have been baited into some of those acts. The Palestinians are not blameless in their plight.
I have nowhere called Muslims filthy, those are your words not mine.
As far as bad actions and actors just turn on your TV and see nightly news stories of Muslim mischief.
BIL:
“Doh! What’s this dusty old book? Why it’s “The Crusades”! And a book about Vlad Tepes – a fine, fine Christian warrior! Lest we forget the classics . . . “The Spanish Inquisition” by Tomas de Torquemada!”
Shall we discuss something that has happened in the last 100 years? Certainly there have been things done in the name of Christianity that are not good, I wont deny it. But I believe we are speaking of the current state of Islam. Not something that happened 600 to 1000 years ago.
Also go check your history, the Crusades were a reaction to Islamic incursions into Europe in the 7th, 8th, 9th centuries. Not the other way around.
Again change the terrain and attack, not too subtle but effective.
SI,
A couple of quick notes: What you’re describing is the effect not the cause, I’ve been trying to figure out what exactly it is that makes you say makes Islam fatally flawed. So far the only defect you’ve given is one that you admit is fairly common among some religions (and I strongly agree that it’s a flaw).
I don’t assume anything about you other than what you say. That’s why I asked if you read many scientific journals.
Back to the conversation:
I’ve made no excuses for fanatics of any religion. What I’ve consistently maintained (not in this conversation because I was more interested in your rationale than converting you to my way of thinking) is that fanaticism has nothing to do with any one religion, but is a general human condition. There are many reasons why a hierarchical society with a fear of “the outside” would give an evolutionary advantage. Sagan explores it pretty in depth in “The Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors,” (I know I recommend that book frequently, but it’s very good). Now that doesn’t excuse violence, or those who exploit that tendency to gain power (For an interesting take on how to avoid that I recommend reading “Island” by Huxley).
I think humanity is in a great position right now. We’re the only species (on earth) that can intentional affect it’s own evolution. We can do this by changing what behaviors our society rewards, but only if we realize that it’s not a matter of “we behave this way and THEY behave that way, so they’re bad” but of “humans all have these instincts, some of us are just in situations that help us submerge them.”
Buddha,
Please, I’m trying to have a conversation here. Go have fun with Sicilian, he’s a lost cause.
And you still don’t have a specific to stand on.
As gyges has asked, what’s the fault? Not your generalizations that can be applied to any religion. Specific contextually presented evidence with quotes. As to Islam proper you say “It probably has to do with a disrespect for life on this earth.”
Prove it.
I don’t see proof of anything but your bias so far. The more you talk, the less you say. If it’s any consolation, I don’t think you’re a troll in the traditional sense. A bigot with limited self-perception perhaps, but an honest one. So prove Islam is worse than Christianity or Judaism. Prove as in proof –
proof – n.\ˈprüf\
a: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact
b: the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning.
It’s a fool’s errand. Enjoy.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31433631/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
Gyges:
The flaw as I see it may have something to do with evolutionary sociology pertaining to religious beliefs. For some reason Islam is stuck in the past, their treatment of women, admonitions against alcohol or certain books, sexual hangups, etc. (although you can say that certain Christian sects are hung up on these to but they don’t seem to have the level of fervor, probably because they are tempered by our more liberal western values) seem archaic.
They are torn between mind and body, for example – on the one hand they like sex but degrade women. They are not integrated, they have a mind body dichotomy. They are afraid of life because much of life is off limits to them. The sins of this life prevent them from enjoying the fruits of eternity. It must be very disheartening to grow up in this type of civilization. Everything that is pleasurable is off limits and they punish themselves and live lives of self denial all in preparation for eternity. Personally I would be an angry individual.
BIL:
“Prove it.”
How using Wikipedia or Huffington Post as support? Why don’t you try having some thoughts of your own. They may not be right but put them out there and have them analyzed and criticized. If you just quote Wikipedia and the Huffington Post how do you know what you think?
Enlightenment is only a synapse away.
BIL:
By the way interesting use of a link. Very insightful.
Yeah, that’s right. Come in with a assertion you won’t (and, duh, can’t) back up and then challenge me? No. Don’t think so. It’s time for you to put up or shut up, smart ass. Prove Islam is worse than any other religion or I’m just going to set your delusional self to “ignore”. So far, all you’ve proven is you’re a bigot in denial and an all hat no cattle bullshiter when it comes to argument skills in defense of your “point”. Evasion isn’t an answer. You’re the genius here. Answer the challenge to your assertion like man. Prove to me and the world that Islam is worse than any other religion. You know, reason and empirical evidence. You’re the one making the assertion. YOU prove it. I know for a fact you can’t, but I’m sure willing to laugh my ass off at you trying. Your parents need to ask the junior college for a refund, sport. So far you’re putting in a pitiful showing. What’s next? Obfuscation? Changing the subject? More evasion? Empty denials and answering with a question? A little more nanny nanny boo boo? Please, try to prove your point. Prove that that Islam is worse than any other religion. Otherwise, you’re just a pant load, junior.
BIL:
“Prove to me and the world that Islam is worse than any other religion. You know, reason and empirical evidence.”
Look around you boy, and what do you see? Do you deny the problems in most (not all) Islamic countries? Do you think this upheval is because Aramco drilled for oil in Saudi Arabia 60 years ago.
What do you do get your talking points from Minister Farakhan? Loopie Louie and his mother ship.
As long as the Mullahs in Iran and the Immams in Saudi Arabia hold sway over Islam, that religion will have problems.
Just look around the world and look at the countries that are in turmoil, most are Islamic.
At this current point in history Islam has problems and they need to be addressed. If you cant see that then you are blinded to reality and nothing I can say will convince you otherwise.
And lastly I never said that Islam was worse than any other religion, I said there was some fundamental flaw that is causing all of this upheval.
Change the terrain and attack, is that your only strategy? Shift the arguement, try and push people off balance. Change the debate to racism, hell my 5 year old daughter could win that one.
So your real world example of the man that gave the robber $40 dollars and a loaf of bread carries sway, but my real world examples of human brutality dont? You are a cherry picker.
And your a non-responsive troll looking to smear Islam without anything but YOUR cherry picked bullshit.
Run along, boy. Adults talk here.
See? I told you one of your options would be more nanny nanny boo boo, amateur.
SHOW THE FLAW. SHOW THE PROOF. SHOW YOUR WORK.
Or STFU.
Because without proof, you might as well be talking out of the end you should be sitting on.
No Proof = No Sale
What you have is an opinion you think constitutes proof. It led you to make an assertion you cannot provide proof for because your opinion was formed on inadequate knowledge and ignorance. An assertion that was maligning one religion and bolstering the others by false comparison. When repeated asked to show the flaw endemic in Islam, you have failed to do so other than generalities that can be applied to any religion. You’ve proven something alright.
You’re a bigot for certain.
Buddha Is Lactating:
if I am a bigot then you must be a sexually frustrated cat loving spinster with a house that smells like cat urine. How many cats do you have – 3,4,..10? You probably use this blog for frustration relief because anyone that disagrees with you is a bigot or worse. You go girl…… and empty those cat boxes.
Bingo!
I win.
Cya, loser.
Any more pissy ad hominem attacks you’d like to make in a vain effort to hurt my feelings (?), please feel free. And for the record, there are lots of people who disagree with me who aren’t bigots. You just happen to be a bigot. A poorly reasoned, self-rationalizing, hateful little person with an agenda. That has nothing to with you disagreeing with me and everything to do with parenting failures and educational misadventure.
Have a nice day.
BIL:
please show me how I am a bigot? Lets see I have some Muslim friends that agree with me, I employ a Muslim who is a great guy. I have given money to Muslim Charities. What have you done? Probably just call me a bigot and now you feel good about yourself, so leftist in your mentality. Think locally, feel globally.
Yes I am bigoted through and through and you are a deeply disturbed individual.
You have a nice day.
Oh and you dont think calling me a racist bigot is an ad hominum attack?
Not at all. It’s accurate. And let’s be clear. I said bigot and possibly racist. It’s possible to be bigoted without being racist and your remarks give all the evidence required that you are bigoted against Muslims. I don’t have to prove you are bigot. You did just fine in that area.
And that vein throbbing in you forehead will stop eventually.
BiL:
there is no vein throbbing in my forhead. You must be projecting.
Oh, no, dear IS. You are the one visibly pissed off as evidenced by your refusal to walk away with any shred of dignity left. You couldn’t piss me off if you tried. Oh, that’s right. You HAVE tried. And on a word count analysis, I succeeded in not only pushing your button first, but I did it with fewer words. I’m not only smarter than you, ace, I’m more efficient. You accused me of being a girl (like there’s something wrong with that? you a misogynist too?), an statement that was supposed to be emasculating, yet you turn around and take defeat anything but like man. Hmmmmm . . . Freud would have a field day with that. But I’m just willing to write off to you being a bad loser, which is also a direct result of poor parenting and educational misadventure.
BIL:
I dont feel pissed off, actually I have been enjoying the diatribe.
Now you are attacking my parents? What kind of person are you?
I have said nothing about your momma or papa, I did not call you names.
“I’m not only smarter than you, ace, I’m more efficient.”
So that is what it comes down to? You must be very insecure and in need of approbation. What you should be getting for most of your posts on this website is opprobrium.
No, you’re just a bigot and sore loser.
You keep on acting like a douche though. It’s funny.
Buddha,
It is funny, don’t engage the idiot. I read most of the messages from my phone as it is easier. You are one intelligent person. Don’t let him engage the rage. I have let one person on this list do so. And now I am in repentance.
AY,
I’m about done playing with my food.
AY,
Sometimes I lose interest. He’s finally popped his cork (despite protestation otherwise) and is now not even weakly bobbing and weaving as he was initially, but rather just seems content to vent on me. That gets boring pretty quick.
IS,
I’ve explained my theory as to what’s going on, I haven’t provided much proof other than to suggest some books to read. On the other hand, you haven’t offered much proof either. While you acknowledge that every single complaint you have against Islamic countries is present to some degree or another in other cultures you seem to avoid the most simple explanation: The flaw isn’t in Islam, but in something universal to humanity. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our Gods, but in ourselves.
I’ve got four cars, two blue, one red, and one white. The CD player skips to varying degrees in all of them, it must be because of a fundamental flaw of blue cars for the blue ones and for different reasons in the red and white cars.
It’s been a nice conversation, and I have honestly thought about what you said, but I remained underwhelmed by your “just look at what’s happening over there” argument. Look at what happens around Easter in South America, look at the women burned as witches in Africa, look at the people tortured by our government, look at the children abused by Catholic priests, etc. etc. etc. I doubt I’ve convinced you of anything, but I hope I’ve given you something to consider.
Buddha, IS,
Perhaps I may “mediate” and end this tiring back and forth.
IS,
Your point that Islam is the only religion today acting in a backward manner was challenged by Buddha as being incorrect. His position is that all of the major religions today, including Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism exhibit the same intolerance that can easily escalate into the same intolerance, violence and death, we see occurring in Islam.
In this Buddha is demonstrably correct. The recent killing of Dr. tiller, illustrates Christian based fanaticism. In Israel and ultra-Orthodox man killed Muslims wantonly in a Mosques as they were worshiping one Friday. Rabin, the Israeli PM, was killed by an ultra-Orthodox student. In India Muslims are constantly getting killed by Hindu rioters and vice versa. All major religions in this world, at this time, demonstrate excesses on the part of their most fanatical and zealous followers. As a Jew and as a supporter of Israel I wish I could say differently, but as someone who tries to understand issues and all their aspects, I can’t.
Your claims vis. Islam are over the top and you really have not demonstrated any proof of them save for your own visceral reactions to the news and your interpretation of them.
Buddha,
You know I love you and have admitted to sicilian 1 that I’m one of your shameless sycophants. However, you have been too quick in this exchange to resort to the snark and to the
invective in a manner that was going to invite return thrusts. I have found that engaging IS based on argument and without name calling to have at least established dialogue. We’re here to express points of view are we not? To be frank this endless round of retort is clogging up the thread and becoming annoying. As you know you could find examples from me which would indicate my words might be “the pot calling the kettle black,”(I love me my cliches)but my words are true even if I sometimes don’t live up to them.
Guys,
Please play nice in the playpen and also please FFLEO’s caution regarding four letter words. Having grown up with permissive parents and come of age in a permissive era, I think I can out swear most anyone on this site, but it really
is self defeating to use these words to make an argument.
Mike,
What am I chopped liver?
IS,
You might also want to consider the link between zealotry and bigotry. They ARE related behaviors. Gyges is right. The Devil is in all men equally. How it manifests itself is the difference. Some can keep their demons leashed better than others. You should think about that before debasing a whole group of people’s behavior and their religion based on the act of an individual or small group.
Add these to your list ‘o pondering . . .
When you start an argument with a charge of fault you better make sure you can define the fault. If you can’t define the fault and contextually present the evidence in support of your argument based on said fault, don’t go to the “well they just are” line. It opens you, the presenter, to impeachment even if that method of impeachment is character assassination to discredit your credibility to be believed on lightly or unfounded assertions. You provided the fodder for this yourself by not only not being prepared but by refusing to quit maligning all of Islam once it was pointed out your assertions had proof instead of addressing said insufficient proof. This left room for you and your bias to present you as bigoted. It’s not fair, most certainly not the Marquess of Queensberry rules or Robert’s Rules of Order – I’ll even stipulate it was dirty pool for a dirty job, but I’ve already told you what you should have expected considering the venue and fair wasn’t it. It wasn’t fair for you to malign all of Islam for one small group’s actions either. Symmetry is achieved.
For my part, here endeth the lesson. If you can get over the now boring phase of telling me what a sh*t I am, you just might learn something. Buddha teaches us that difficult people are a lesson in patience. It is also true that not every difficult person is your enemy.
The road is that way . . .
“pointed out your assertions had no proof instead”
See AY? You don’t want me pruf redding for yous.
Mike Spindell,
We old guys have heard–and most likely have used, at least once–every word known in script and/or verbally. Additionally, as an LEO, I have just about heard everything. However, on a blawg such as this, I do not need to hear vulgarity in what should be debate based on fact and reason. Such lowbrow discourse fouls the atmosphere and denigrates the value and respect I expect from this unique site.
Oh, sorry Mike, I was typing that as you were asking me to play nice. No mediation needed. I do try to stop before going over the edge but I thank you for your concern. It’s Friday and summer and I guess I’m craving a little danger and excitement. I’m crazy from the heat I tell you!
BIL:
I am more than willing to cease and desist.
But I do not believe myself to be a bigot or racist. And I do think that all religions have eqaully bad qualities and equally good qualities. Man makes them up so they are all mans image of god/God.
I have much to learn but would rather not be called names at least not right out of the box.
“Mike,
What am I chopped liver?”
Gyges,
Never would I think you unworthy of comment. However, your dialogue with IS for the most part refrained from invective and stuck to the argument. In that sense the exchanges were pleasurable to read and always as is the case with you informative.
You know of course there are some people who have known me in life who would be shocked at my current attempts at being diplomatic. I grown and grown older.
IS,
In case I wasn’t clear, you’re not a bigot necessarily. I leave that for you to ponder. Seriously. What I did to you was tactical, not personal. I don’t know you well enough to say without doubt whether you are or are not a bigot, but the treatment you got here was light compared to if you had a real life conversation started that way inadvertently with an actual Muslim. Just like confronting a Christian, you might get lucky and get some nice moderate willing to teach you the error of your perception in presentation, but you just might get one of the lunatic fringe who decides you need a beating or a car bomb. Needless to say there are boards and blogs about where your assertion would have met with death threats. Zealots. But before they were zealots, they were bigots. Do you see the connection?
Arguments are a form of combat. You must be careful how you use your weapons or they will be your undoing.
gyges,
Dude you make an excellent foil. Not chopped liver at all. Thank you for your assistance.
“I’m crazy from the heat I tell you!”
Buddha,
Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t realize the Devil made you do it.
FFLEO,
We are so on the same page.
Gyges,
While you might think that: “I grown and grown older” was a play on words, you’d be being kind. Should’ve been “I’ve.”
IS,
Despite sicilian 1′s justification, this experience on this site is so much more fun and so much more informative without hyperbole and invective.
Mike, Buddha,
I’ll have you know I like chopped liver and am insulted you don’t think I rate on the same level as it.
On a side note, I honestly think the best thing humanity can do at this stage is to sit down and say “What sort of species do we want to be down the road? And what’s the ethical and practical way of getting there?” Unfortunately I think we need a couple more generations of a society where religious beliefs like Mike’s are rewarded more than those who view God as a tall guy with beard, toga, and sandals (Although I think we’d loose something priceless in cartoon iconography).
I was hoping to get IS to engage in that sort of conversation, but I’ll settle for an intelligent discussion with someone who disagrees with me.
BIL/Gyges:
here is another man that agrees with me, I trust he has some authority.
You can google his name and find many works by him.
“Following are excerpts from an interview with Saudi Shura Council member Ibrahim Al-Buleihi, which aired on Channel 1, Saudi TV, on May 23, 2006.
Interviewer: Some elements in Arab and Muslim societies have intensified the hostility towards Arabs and Muslims, through their acts of violence and terrorism, to the point that we see images of slaughtering the other – American or European – live on TV.
Ibrahim Al-Buleihi: In my opinion, we should not describe these people as deviant. This is the product of our culture.
[...]
They are the product of a culture that believes the other does not deserve to live, and is an absolute enemy with whom no understanding is possible.
[...]
There is a fundamental flaw in our culture that leads to this behavior. This ideology, which was advocated by Sayyid Qutb, and which is implemented by those who kill innocent people – women, children, and people who have done nothing wrong – did not emerge out of thin air, but is the product of this culture. This is a one-dimensional culture, a culture of tyranny – tyranny in culture, in politics, in society, in the family, and in everything.
[...]
The “other” does not have to be someone completely different. When we disagree with someone, even over minor iussues regarding ritual purity, we regard him as the “other,” we boycott him, we excommunicate him, defame him, level accusations at him, and so on.”
IS,
The point was never that there weren’t problems in Islam, the point was that they weren’t JUST in Islam. Look at human history, the norm has never been enlightenment and freedom, it has always been savage and brutal tyranny.
Gyges:
Yes in most cases it has been, America is an anomaly among nations and cultures.
But I am not arguing that point, I said Islam has a fundamental flaw and I have offered another reason than my own from an Arab scholar no less who says the exact same thing I am saying.
If you want to argue about how bad the RCC was or that white settlers treated American Indians terribly or that American Indians treated white settlers terribly, or that Persians killed Greeks and vice verse, I wont argue with you. Human history is replete with examples of mans inhumanity to man by all races and all creeds to all races and all creeds.
And there is a fundamental flaw in those cultures and races too. I think it is the lack of respect for the individual and the placement of the tribe/state/clan above the rights of the individual.
IS,
Actually, you repeatedly COMPARED Islam to other religions (actually the rest of the world in one case) and claimed that it was worse. I could quote you doing it, but I’m going to assume you’re honest enough to admit it.
O.k. now, in order to prove that comparison, you have to A) prove that Islam is as bad as you describe it and that B) the other cultures are better.
You’re more than willing to do A), but you haven’t even begun to address B), And it’s B) that causes us to disagree. If B is false, then the conclusion that makes the most sense is that the flaws in Islam are an effect not a cause. That’s my point in it’s entirety.
Look, I’m done. You can keep making your points all you want, and I’ll probably read them, but you’re refusing to address what I’m ACTUALLY saying. So rather than get frustrated, I’m just going to stop talking.
IS,
The error you are making is called outcome based reasoning. You are arguing to your desired outcome instead of analysis that may or may not provide the outcome you desire. What you have is not false evidence, it’s misapplied evidence. It is as Gyges said, the problems you describe are not exclusive to Islam. So if it’s a given that all religions have problems, you should start looking for commonalities of the problems in order to see if you can find causal connection that may point to the error in human nature over the error in human systems (in this case belief systems).
Buddha and Gyges,
Xenu is angry with you. Scientology does not have “problems”. Get thee clear.
Jill,
Scientology isn’t a religion: it’s the most elaborate live action science fiction role-playing game ever…
Gyges,
That was brilliant! Did you know XENU lives in Chicago?
Gyges,
I was just looking at the the Scientology Player’s Handbook and it says Tom Cruise is a 20th Level Paladin. Who’d have thunk it?
Gyges, Best description ever. Leave out “Science fiction” and you could apply it to any religion.
lottakatz,
And you said I was evil? LOL!
Gyges:
So let me get this right, to prove a proposition I must also prove the reciprocal of my initial proposition?
To prove A I must also prove that B is not A.? I don’t think I need to prove that B is not A unless A rests on the negative of B.
In this case I don’t think my initial proposition A rests on B. A can be proved or disproved on its own. A is not dependent on B nor is B dependent on A in this case.
All dogs have 4 legs, a Lab is a dog |- all Labs have 4 legs.
The proposition that all dogs have 4 legs is not dependent on the type of dog. But the identity of a dog is dependent on it having 4 legs among other attributes that define it as a dog.
I don’t need to prove that a cat is not a dog to prove that certain dogs bite people.
Jill: And you said I was evil?
I take that as high praise, Thank you.
lottakatz,
Well, even though it’s father’s day we should give thanks to one of the mothers of all evil, Condi Rice!
IS,
You’re completely ignoring the part where your claim is a comparison. If you don’t get that two compare two things you first have to establish the facts about BOTH things, then I suggest you look into why there are controls in scientific studies.
excuse me (I’m still trying to overcome the shock of having three of my favorite fishing spots on a nearby stream blocked by fallen trees): “…get that to compare two things…”
BIL,
I’ve got to call you on that one, everyone knows only humans can be Paladins. Sorry to let reality get in the way of a good joke…
Gyges:
If I understand controls properly it is so that a base line can be established to eliminate the possibility of contaminated data.
For example I want to give a diet pill to middle age men over 40 to see how effective the pill will be in helping them loose weight. I have a control group that does not get the pill but does everything the other group does, therefore any differential weight loss between the groups can be attributed to the pill. Is that your understanding?
So now how does that apply to this? Quite frankly I do not understand the connection. I have Muslim religion A and Muslim control religion B. So what do I do now? Give group A a Quran and tell them to pray 5 times per day and give group B a copy of the Federalist Papers and see if group B embraces human rights?