Various news sites are reporting that a Christian man, Ishtiaq Masih, was beaten to death in Pakistan’s Punjab province for buying a cup of tea in a Muslim-only tea stall.
The owner is a Mubarak Ali, 42, who put up a sign in Machharkay village saying that non-Muslims had to identify themselves when approaching the stall. When Masih’s cross was noticed around his neck, the owner called on people to attack him. Here is how the International Christian Concern (ICC) described it: “When Ishtiaq went to pay for his tea, the owner noticed that he was wearing a necklace with a cross and grabbed him, calling for his employees to bring anything available to beat him for violating a sign posted on the stall warning non-Muslims to declare their religion before being served. . . The owner and 14 of his employees beat Ishtiaq with stones, iron rods and clubs, and stabbed him multiple times with kitchen knives as Ishtiaq pleaded for mercy.”
For the full story, click here.
Gyges:
So let me get this right, to prove a proposition I must also prove the reciprocal of my initial proposition?
To prove A I must also prove that B is not A.? I don’t think I need to prove that B is not A unless A rests on the negative of B.
In this case I don’t think my initial proposition A rests on B. A can be proved or disproved on its own. A is not dependent on B nor is B dependent on A in this case.
All dogs have 4 legs, a Lab is a dog |- all Labs have 4 legs.
The proposition that all dogs have 4 legs is not dependent on the type of dog. But the identity of a dog is dependent on it having 4 legs among other attributes that define it as a dog.
I don’t need to prove that a cat is not a dog to prove that certain dogs bite people.
lottakatz,
And you said I was evil? LOL!
Gyges, Best description ever. Leave out “Science fiction” and you could apply it to any religion.
Gyges,
I was just looking at the the Scientology Player’s Handbook and it says Tom Cruise is a 20th Level Paladin. Who’d have thunk it?
Gyges,
That was brilliant! Did you know XENU lives in Chicago?
Jill,
Scientology isn’t a religion: it’s the most elaborate live action science fiction role-playing game ever…
Buddha and Gyges,
Xenu is angry with you. Scientology does not have “problems”. Get thee clear.
IS,
The error you are making is called outcome based reasoning. You are arguing to your desired outcome instead of analysis that may or may not provide the outcome you desire. What you have is not false evidence, it’s misapplied evidence. It is as Gyges said, the problems you describe are not exclusive to Islam. So if it’s a given that all religions have problems, you should start looking for commonalities of the problems in order to see if you can find causal connection that may point to the error in human nature over the error in human systems (in this case belief systems).
IS,
Actually, you repeatedly COMPARED Islam to other religions (actually the rest of the world in one case) and claimed that it was worse. I could quote you doing it, but I’m going to assume you’re honest enough to admit it.
O.k. now, in order to prove that comparison, you have to A) prove that Islam is as bad as you describe it and that B) the other cultures are better.
You’re more than willing to do A), but you haven’t even begun to address B), And it’s B) that causes us to disagree. If B is false, then the conclusion that makes the most sense is that the flaws in Islam are an effect not a cause. That’s my point in it’s entirety.
Look, I’m done. You can keep making your points all you want, and I’ll probably read them, but you’re refusing to address what I’m ACTUALLY saying. So rather than get frustrated, I’m just going to stop talking.
Gyges:
Yes in most cases it has been, America is an anomaly among nations and cultures.
But I am not arguing that point, I said Islam has a fundamental flaw and I have offered another reason than my own from an Arab scholar no less who says the exact same thing I am saying.
If you want to argue about how bad the RCC was or that white settlers treated American Indians terribly or that American Indians treated white settlers terribly, or that Persians killed Greeks and vice verse, I wont argue with you. Human history is replete with examples of mans inhumanity to man by all races and all creeds to all races and all creeds.
And there is a fundamental flaw in those cultures and races too. I think it is the lack of respect for the individual and the placement of the tribe/state/clan above the rights of the individual.
IS,
The point was never that there weren’t problems in Islam, the point was that they weren’t JUST in Islam. Look at human history, the norm has never been enlightenment and freedom, it has always been savage and brutal tyranny.
BIL/Gyges:
here is another man that agrees with me, I trust he has some authority.
You can google his name and find many works by him.
“Following are excerpts from an interview with Saudi Shura Council member Ibrahim Al-Buleihi, which aired on Channel 1, Saudi TV, on May 23, 2006.
Interviewer: Some elements in Arab and Muslim societies have intensified the hostility towards Arabs and Muslims, through their acts of violence and terrorism, to the point that we see images of slaughtering the other – American or European – live on TV.
Ibrahim Al-Buleihi: In my opinion, we should not describe these people as deviant. This is the product of our culture.
[…]
They are the product of a culture that believes the other does not deserve to live, and is an absolute enemy with whom no understanding is possible.
[…]
There is a fundamental flaw in our culture that leads to this behavior. This ideology, which was advocated by Sayyid Qutb, and which is implemented by those who kill innocent people – women, children, and people who have done nothing wrong – did not emerge out of thin air, but is the product of this culture. This is a one-dimensional culture, a culture of tyranny – tyranny in culture, in politics, in society, in the family, and in everything.
[…]
The “other” does not have to be someone completely different. When we disagree with someone, even over minor iussues regarding ritual purity, we regard him as the “other,” we boycott him, we excommunicate him, defame him, level accusations at him, and so on.”
Mike, Buddha,
I’ll have you know I like chopped liver and am insulted you don’t think I rate on the same level as it.
On a side note, I honestly think the best thing humanity can do at this stage is to sit down and say “What sort of species do we want to be down the road? And what’s the ethical and practical way of getting there?” Unfortunately I think we need a couple more generations of a society where religious beliefs like Mike’s are rewarded more than those who view God as a tall guy with beard, toga, and sandals (Although I think we’d loose something priceless in cartoon iconography).
I was hoping to get IS to engage in that sort of conversation, but I’ll settle for an intelligent discussion with someone who disagrees with me.
“I’m crazy from the heat I tell you!”
Buddha,
Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t realize the Devil made you do it.
FFLEO,
We are so on the same page.
Gyges,
While you might think that: “I grown and grown older” was a play on words, you’d be being kind. Should’ve been “I’ve.”
IS,
Despite sicilian 1’s justification, this experience on this site is so much more fun and so much more informative without hyperbole and invective.
gyges,
Dude you make an excellent foil. Not chopped liver at all. Thank you for your assistance.
IS,
In case I wasn’t clear, you’re not a bigot necessarily. I leave that for you to ponder. Seriously. What I did to you was tactical, not personal. I don’t know you well enough to say without doubt whether you are or are not a bigot, but the treatment you got here was light compared to if you had a real life conversation started that way inadvertently with an actual Muslim. Just like confronting a Christian, you might get lucky and get some nice moderate willing to teach you the error of your perception in presentation, but you just might get one of the lunatic fringe who decides you need a beating or a car bomb. Needless to say there are boards and blogs about where your assertion would have met with death threats. Zealots. But before they were zealots, they were bigots. Do you see the connection?
Arguments are a form of combat. You must be careful how you use your weapons or they will be your undoing.
“Mike,
What am I chopped liver?”
Gyges,
Never would I think you unworthy of comment. However, your dialogue with IS for the most part refrained from invective and stuck to the argument. In that sense the exchanges were pleasurable to read and always as is the case with you informative.
You know of course there are some people who have known me in life who would be shocked at my current attempts at being diplomatic. I grown and grown older.
BIL:
I am more than willing to cease and desist.
But I do not believe myself to be a bigot or racist. And I do think that all religions have eqaully bad qualities and equally good qualities. Man makes them up so they are all mans image of god/God.
I have much to learn but would rather not be called names at least not right out of the box.
Oh, sorry Mike, I was typing that as you were asking me to play nice. No mediation needed. I do try to stop before going over the edge but I thank you for your concern. It’s Friday and summer and I guess I’m craving a little danger and excitement. I’m crazy from the heat I tell you!
Mike Spindell,
We old guys have heard–and most likely have used, at least once–every word known in script and/or verbally. Additionally, as an LEO, I have just about heard everything. However, on a blawg such as this, I do not need to hear vulgarity in what should be debate based on fact and reason. Such lowbrow discourse fouls the atmosphere and denigrates the value and respect I expect from this unique site.