Acting true to it authoritarian form, the Iranian government is seeking to erase evidence of Neda Solton, the 26-year-old woman who died during protests when government forces used live rounds to disperse crowds.
Officials have ordered the family to take down mourning posters and have barred any gatherings in her name. They have even blocked the family from holding a public burial or memorial service.
Nevertheless, posters have started to appear around the city and the effort to block internet access has not been entirely successful. In the meantime, most of the media has been blocked from even mentioning her name. One of the few references on television claimed to have debunked the story and suggested that the scene was staged, here.
She was shot when she was walking to a demonstration in Freedom Square in central Tehran. As the video below depicts, she died on the street. Her last words were: “I’m burning! I’m burning!”
Tributes have been posted on Youtube to Neda:
For the full story, click here.
Thanks, Prof.
Neda should not be forgotten. Not just by Iranians either, but by anyone who values freedom over tyranny.
The Mullahs’ attempts to erase the memory of this woman’s death are bound to fail. No amount of official edicts can neither erase people’s memories or assuage their anger.
I am aghast that they would do something like thins. But this should be no surprise either. May she rest in peace.
Now with the controversy of yesterday, naming a solider as a murder and now we have what I would call a martyr, how do we reconcile the two different sides?
The governments in each case have decided that they should not be named. Albeit for different purposes. What is the balance professor?
Today ,although not usually, I agree with Richard Cohen in the Washington Post. Obama is just not upset enough about what is going on in Iran. He is just too disconnected and cool. No one expects an invasion but he could appear to be much more outraged and much more supportive of the Iranian people.
Juan Cole is one good person to go to for info on Iran. He has this link below to help support the people of Iran against the regime.
http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/siteapps/advocacy/index.aspx?c=jhKPIXPCIoE&b=
More on NEDA:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/politics/2009/06/23/neda/index.html
Juan Cole was great on Iraq. I will check him out on Iran.
I know I am about to get flamed for this, but we very well all could be taken for a ride. There is a possibility that ‘Neda’s’ ‘death’ on video is just a astroturfed video used to gain sympathy for the protesters. Neither Neda’s existence nor death, so far as I know, have been independently confirmed by any news media outlet. That being said, not much has been independently confirmed in Iran over the past week so I understand if the confirmers may tarry. And, of course, if what is purported to be shown in the videos did actually happen, then that’s a tragedy. However, I can’t shake this Jessica Lynch / Pat Tillman / teabaggers feeling I have about this video.
That is what governments do when they try to put clothes on their naked aggressions.
http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2009/06/another-innocent-person-at-gitmo.html
TAFKAFFN,
That is why reporters, the people who “twitter” et al. often are cautiously saying, allegedly, or reportedly, etc.
Of course, we must all be aware of problems of fraud in this digital world, especially from secretive nations where fact is had to acquire, if at all.
You should not be criticized for your skepticism.
Look at Al Jazeera. See what you think.
The Artist Formerly Known As FFN-
What you may be feeling is uncertainty about the results of the Iranian elections, not neccesarily the authenticity of the videos of the death of Neda Solton.
I have been reserving judgement on the result, because there are several scenarios that are being pushed on us by our own corporate media and the world’s different media outlets, it’s hard to believe any of them. It seems that everyone has a stake in the outcome.
Ballot stuffing, CIA support of opposition candidates, polls showing the current government with popular support, Neocons in the media, Iraq, Israeli agents, propaganda, cencorship, etc…
It’s not surprising that there are doubts. I have doubts.
I am sure that Iranian Embassies and Ambassadors would love to have the chance to answer any questions you might have concerning Neda’s death and how her family has been treated according to the traditions of Islam but the Islamic republic. Their names and addresses are easily found on the internet, it doesn’t matter if they are Ambassadors to your country or not, I’m sure they will be happy that you dropped them a note, snail mail would be appreciated too!
This is an interview from Terry Gross. It’s very much worth hearing:
“Bloody protests in the streets of Iran following that nation’s June 12 presidential election have captivated the world’s attention, but what does it all mean? Political analyst Karim Sadjadpour weighs in on the unprecedented events — and who holds the power.”
http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=13
TAFKAFFN:
“I know I am about to get flamed for this, but we very well all could be taken for a ride. There is a possibility that ‘Neda’s’ ‘death’ on video is just a astroturfed video used to gain sympathy for the protesters”
so what does it matter if it is staged? A free Iran is not good if someone scams the Mullahs? They should gain their freedom using Marquis of Queensbury rules or not at all?
The attempt by the Iranian theocracy to erase what was done to this poor girl will not work.
Too many have seen the images and will pick up Neda torch and what she represents to the fight for freedom.
We could argue back and forth over the veracity of the pictures and who is really behind instigating this revolution. But who cares?
WE should all hope the revolutionaries are successful in toppling this oppressive regime.
And EVERY Muslim apologist SHOULD be rooting for the people because if they are successful Islam may take a step into the modern world. The world may be able to treat them with legitimacy and NOT just because they sit on top of most of the worlds oil reserves.
I cheer for the Iranians in the voice of all humanity. To end the oppression of the people of the Muslim world as a whole and to especially end it for all the underclasses and minorities who truly have NO liberty in those lands.
Though our great presidents remarks lack the forcefullness I would like, at least he is saying something that can be taken as at least a “Fist-Pump” of support for these brave and courageous people.
In the name of freedom, liberty, democracy and Neda may the Iranian people win.
Oh quite shedding the alligator tears.
NOT ONE OF YOU here cares anyway and our “President” cares even less about the Iranian people.
Phonies, fakers, charlatans, hypocrites, worms, weasels. You are all that and more.
Jill,
Juan Cole is a lunatic and your referring others to him proves you are a lunatic also. He is a puppet of Al Jazzeera.
So while kids in Eye-ran were getting shot and beat up protesting that fake election, what was the Communist-in-Chief doing?
Was he writing an amazing speech that would inspire the Eye-ranians, like “tear down this wall”? Maybe he was in all-day meetings figuring out to do when the wrong guy wins over there and shuts off our oil.
Nope. The Teleprompter Kid went for ice cream with his kids – and making sure we all knew about it by bringing reporters along! On the campaign trail, Obama wanted to be left alone to eat his waffles – but I guess that was different.
So while other people’s kids are getting killed in Eye-ran, Obama’s DOG is getting a Frozen Puppy Pop! If the Teleprompter Kid cares so much about what the rest of the world things of America, maybe letting it get out that we make special ice creams for our pets isn’t the smartest idea.
What’s worse is that Obama let some guy skateboard down the halls of the White House!
Back in my day, if you’d seen a forty year old man wearing running shoes and riding a skateboard all day, he would’ve been the retard fella who lived with his grandma and swept up the hair at the barbershop — not a damn millionaire!
KABUL – The top U.S. general in Afghanistan will soon formally order U.S. and NATO forces to break away from fights with militants hiding in Afghan houses so the battles do not kill civilians, a U.S. official said Monday.
Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who took command of international forces in Afghanistan this month, has said his measure of effectiveness will be the “number of Afghans shielded from violence,” and not the number of militants killed.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090622/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan
In other news, the Taliban announced that they were purchasing 2,000 Winnebagos for moving troops around the country. “We have assurances that civilian homes will not be targeted by Nato forces, and we expect that to extend to motor homes as well.”
G
G
G
G
Well people, it is time to bring the troops home from Afganistan now. You can’t win a war with a President like we have & orders like this. The most immoral act you can commit is to send American soldiers to their deaths in a war you have no intention of winning.
Shala,
Your ad hominem shows you are quite shallow … or as they say down in Texas where you are, quite shala …
One of the most famous Iranian heros, who has a national day of honor in Iran, is an American …
http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2009/06/things-are-going-rummier-rummier.html
Dredd:
Oh quite shedding the alligator tears.
NOT ONE OF YOU here cares anyway and our “President” cares even less about the Iranian people.
Phonies, fakers, charlatans, hypocrites, worms, weasels. You are all that and more.
SHALA,
I beg yor extreme pardon!!!!!!
If you had been following the comments on JT since yesterday you would’ve seen that I was the ONLY one calling out our compassionlees, arrogant, insensitive, insulting, dismissive, elitist president.
I had written a blog well in advance of anyone else including the media. EVEN FOX news didn’t speak out before me. I wrote 2 blofs condemning the presidents lack of compassion, leadership and interest in this monumental issue.
My words speak for my accuracy AND my foresight in calling out for action and words from the president.
MY blog and my posts ARE the PROOF.
You can go to the crispus attucks POST ON jt FROM YESTERDAY AND SEE THAT i WAS the lone wolf IN SPEAKING OUT ON THIS MATTER.
I am the one who does NOT have any fiegned compassion in this matter.
How dare you disparage my concern when I have been ahead of the ball from the begining!! Who do you think you are with your “Johnny-come-lately” comments?
I ask you to at least read my quotes from JT on the CRISPUS ATTUCKS post before you insinuate further dishonesty’s my way. You at the VERY least owe me that respect AND I would appreciate an apology.
This is to you SHALA. Do you have the honor?????
The troll “false consensus” brigade is on the move again. And they can apparently mind read, so careful with those passwords and PINs.
lottakatz,
Your inability to post is connected to: The Trolling of JT (a new movie coming to a theater near you)! I believe the trolls on the Scientology thread and the trolls here are connected. There is so much going on with the situation in Iran. Hence, we got trolls. They have inspired me to do some more digging.
Buddha,
This has been fun to read on my cell phone. I am now able to post. Do you get extra point for troll baiting? Or for that fact responding to them?
AY,
I don’t do it for points. I just really loathe propaganda. It’s my nature.
It has been delightful. It really has and I have learned a lot of new terminology that I would have never used in the same breath. Wow.
Shala:
you are right, most in this blog havent seen a dictator they dont like. although the Mullahs touch a chord because they believe in a God. If they did not this site would be talking about the temerity of the Iranian people to overthrow such good governance. think Cuba and Venezuela and throw in Mugabe for good measure.
They are also the same type of people that thought Natan Sharansky and Alexander Solzhenitsyn were way over the top disagreeing with those kind soft hearted fellows in the Kremlin.
What will Neda be rememebered for though? Both Achmedinejad and his opposer are bad and backed by the Ayatollah. She was a remarkable, open minded, talented and beautiful woman, who died protesting an injustice in her country, but after the fact what will she really represent?t BTW professor I thought you might find this interesting:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06222009/news/regionalnews/jewish_girl_snubbed_in_hs_holy_daze_175467.htm
especially after the georgia state judges story you raised a moral question about:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06222009/news/regionalnews/jewish_girl_snubbed_in_hs_holy_daze_175467.htm
It appears they treat jews better in NY than in Georgia. What a shocker.
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/05/06/jewish-students-challenge-schedule-of-national-high-school-mock-trial/
oops. there’s that second link. I am bombed
Shala:
With all due respect (and it might be ever so slight), many of us do not care what happens to the faction currently under siege in Iran. No one seriously doubts that either the ruling faction or its counterpart has any love lost for the US, and while the oppressed may sing the democratic line, they are obedient servants to the theocracy that is Iran today. My interests are identical to US interests, and picking a side in a civil war rarely, if ever serves our national interests. See Vietnam. You may sympathize with the admittedly brave protesters, and the sad death of this young passer by, but gambling American prestige and military might on the outcome of a civil war of our chief adversary in the region is foolishness of high order as Iraq so vividly showed us. That is not true, of course, if your goal is to find any scintilla of an argument to attack the incumbent President. Then, of course, Iran provides yet another opportunity for demagoguery and to demonstrate that ideology trumps patriotism among the neo-con mob.
Swarthmore mom 1, June 23, 2009 at 9:59 am
Today ,although not usually, I agree with Richard Cohen in the Washington Post. Obama is just not upset enough about what is going on in Iran. He is just too disconnected and cool. No one expects an invasion but he could appear to be much more outraged and much more supportive of the Iranian people.
——————————————-
That would do more harm than good to the reformist movement. Obama has to be seen as if he is not interfering in any way. Otherwise, he will give Ahmedinajad & Co a basis for claiming the West is behind these protests.
I didn’t mean he should interfere just that he should show more empathy which he did this afternoon.
It does have a bit of a “too-perfect-to-be-true” feel to it. Although the way Neda looks at the camera, with an absence of presence due to massive shock, does seem real.
Then there is what appears to be two different Neda’s, and (currently) a question of an independent source identifying Neda as a real person.
I wonder if a point by point analysis of the video has been made by a skeptic, something like microanalysing the moonshot films to debunk them.
My oddsmaker assessment, 85% likely true, 15% hoax.
I honestly hope the latter; this video made me cry.
Also, the backstory doesn’t quite make sense.
Do the Bacrashi carry firearms? Why would they pick out a non-protesting woman, 1km from where the protests were occuring, and just stepping out of a car for a few minutes).
Also, for the massive injury she supposedly sustained, a direct bullet shot to the center of her chest, I have to wonder, where is all the blood that would be coming from her torso or her back onto the ground, it should have been everywhere, including the spot where they are trying to give her CPR.
And now I could be nitpicking, but this video was supposedly shot with a cellphone videocam. It really seems a bit too high quality for that.
Then there is the extreme rapid nature of her burial; no wake, or prefuneral proceedings, or even pictures/video of that proceeding?
And the almost too perfect backstory of her, preceding the shooting – her repeated commentary about “Don’t worry. It’s just one bullet and it’s over”, or “Neda had said that even if she lost her life and got a bullet in her heart, she would carry on”.
That she was not political and had no intention of protesting, only that she was passionate about the honesty of the election process. Her fiancee said she “studied philosophy, music and tourism, was not political”
I can’t say for sure, but there seem to be too many “just right” elements to this
At bottom the continuous attacks by the right against the president for not doing more (whatever that means) in support of Iranian protesters springs from right-wing resentment that we have not invaded that country. There are still plenty of warmongers out there who believe that American imperialism in the Middle East offers the best prospects for democratization. The fact that there is not a single historical example of the successful creation of a democracy through conquest is apparently immaterial. Neocons ultimately want war for the sake of Israel. Christian fundamentalists want war to help usher in Armageddon and the rapture. The promotion of democracy in Iran isn’t the ultimate goal for either of these groups, but it makes for effective propaganda among the faithful.
Mike A.,
10-4 on that comment!
It’s also creepy how the regime is trying not only to make this one woman’s death disappear, they have been fairly sucessful in making the whole opposition disappear.
MAppleton,
NEVER ONCE did I advocate an invasion AND would NOT want the president to initiate an invasion.
You are the one who tries to manipulate a statement to go on an attack against groups you resent.
The simple fact is that Obama should have come out with strong support in defense of the protesters from the begining. His initial statements were insensitive.
My point was that dismissing Mousavi as not that much different that Achmedinejad was arrogant AND insensitive AND insulting to the people protrsting and dying. The presidents should RESPECT their fight.
The call for the president to show the Iranians some LOVING support for their cause is NOT instigated by a desire for invasion nor armageddeon. That is just a manipulation on your part to get on your soapbox and spew your anti-American rhetoric.
I’m NOT looking for a creation of democracy through conquest AND NEVER have. LETS be ABSOLUTELY clear about that!!! Do NOT try to paint me as advocating war. I WANT the will of the IRANIAN people to be done. AND I want the president to respect their out cry against the oppression against their regime.
AND I WANT our president who likes to wag his finger and admonish the American people about compassion and the self-governing rights of others to take his own advice and show that support by INCLINATION NOT by political pressure after his back is against the wall.
Well you know, Sil, I just re-read Mike A’s comment and let me show you something . . .
“At bottom the continuous attacks by the right against the president for not doing more (whatever that means) in support of Iranian protesters springs from right-wing resentment that we have not invaded that country. There are still plenty of warmongers out there who believe that American imperialism in the Middle East offers the best prospects for democratization. The fact that there is not a single historical example of the successful creation of a democracy through conquest is apparently immaterial. Neocons ultimately want war for the sake of Israel. Christian fundamentalists want war to help usher in Armageddon and the rapture. The promotion of democracy in Iran isn’t the ultimate goal for either of these groups, but it makes for effective propaganda among the faithful.”
The only groups Mike mentions within the context of your post are Neocons and Christian Fundamentalists. He does not mention you once. So tell do tell, why so defensive unless you’re either a Neocon or a Fundie?
Knee-jerk much?
More importantly, Sil, I’m curious about something . . . what is your/the Neocon/Fundie agenda in disrespecting Neda Solton and her sacrifice while peacefully seeking to protest?
Exactly what do you hope to achieve? To blot her out of history like the brutal Iranian theocrats?
It will not work.
Her death was senseless and brutal and unjust. The human spirit rebels at the unjust death of innocents.
So what’s you percentage, troll? What’s your interest in offending the memory of Neda Solton? Is it the same interest you may have in minimizing the contributions of MLK? Is it the same interest you may have in keeping torture photos censored? Is it the same interest you have in the Iranian people being deprived of their self-determination by dictators hiding behind a religious text?
I’m curious.
I’m NOT a neocon nor a fundamentalist.
That’s the little trick you progressives try to play. You classify everyone as a group. Those on your side and on the opposing side. That’s how you progressives control voting blocks and villanize anyone and everyone who disagrees with you.
Mike A tried to lump all those who disagree with the pres. as a neocon or a fundamentalist. That made it much easier for him to defend Obama’s indefensible position.
If Obama had any respect for Neda or any of you progressives had any real respect instead of trying to fiegn compassion and concern you would put aside your partisian blinders and be outraged over the lack of compassion, concer and interest of our great pres., the suppossed leader of the free world
I have NEVER tried to blot neda out, unlike our insensitive pres. who has NOT even mentioned her by NAME. And if he did I missed it. And if he did it was once again much too late.
I have NEVER stopped referring to this poor, young woman and what she represents.
It has been you and your progressive crowd who has insulted her memory by even suggesting the honesty of the images we’ve seen. That is something I would NEVER even consider.
I have NEVER minimized her. And if you read my blogs you would know how concerned I am for black people and what MLK has done for them.
I warn you, oh psuedo-compassionate, psuedo,-concerned, psuedo-intellectual white-guilter that you are, I’ve been in the trenches of the civil rights struggle, something I certainly suspect you have only done through back-patting pontifications from your ivy-tower. Do NOT even go there!
You are nothing but an insult to the memory of Neda. You just want to thump your chest and get faux-praise from your progressive crowd but never have the intellectuasl honesty to call-out your pres. over his own lack of compassion.
You are no different from MikeA or any other progressive who labels, calls names then gets on their high-horse with their fiegned morality to promote partisian causes.
What will not work is the hypocricy of your ilk who goes around trying tp point fingers but will never subject yourselves or anyone in your crowd to the very same standards.
My but you’re a foamy one.
sicilian, I will attempt to respond to your outrage as best I can, although I know in advance it will be less than adequate. When I wrote my comments, they were not with you in mind (whoever you are). The initial reaction to the president’s calm came from the typical Republican remnants who dug trenches the day after the election and have remained there, emerging periodically to vote no or to condemn the president for not performing miracles. Their argument was over nuance, the lack of emotional content in the president’s response to the rather apparent electoral shenanigans in Iran. Of course, had he bombarded the airwaves with threats and bombastic eloquence, the criticism would have been that he was a hypocrite, adopting the axis of evil language of George Bush that he had so heavily criticized during the campaign.
Senators and Representatives can say whatever they wish. That most of it is crap is acceptable because it does not represent the voice of American policy in foreign affairs. However, I expect more than cheap emotionalism from the president. I expect him to act on the basis of factual information. I expect him to act in accordance with the national interests of this country. I expect him to avoid embroiling us in matters over which we have no control. In short, I expect him to be an adult.
Iran is a theocracy. As long as it is run by a single religious leader, the outcomes of its presidential elections are essentially immaterial other than to Iranians. When citizens of that country decide to change it, they will change it. The impact of the death of Neda Solton will not be determined by the words of an American president, but by the inspiration it provides for internal change in Iran.
However, to suggest that I or anyone else, including the president, do not have compassion for Ms. Solton is to assume a right which you do not have. I no more know what is in your heart than you know what is in mine. And to urge that the failure to rush the emotional ramparts is insulting to her memory is presumptuous nonsense.
I am one of a few people on this site who use their real identities because I have nothing to fear from that disclosure. I am 62 and well recall the civil rights and Vietnam years. I have not forgotten the children who died in the bombing of a church in Alabama. I have not forgotten the three civil rights workers kidnapped, tortured and murdered in Mississippi. I have not forgotten the four students killed at Kent State by our own national guard troops. Those deaths produced more positive change in this country than any amount of hand wringing or weeping has ever accomplished. If the death of Neda Solton has a similar effect in Iran, she will be remembered for many years as a heroine in her country. That is for the people of Iran to decide.
While searching Youtube for the song “Strange Boat” by The Waterboys I found this tribute by Mike Scott to the Iranian protesters and wanted to share it with you all.
“Let the Earth Bear Witness”
words by W.B. Yeats
They shall be remembered forever
They shall be alive forever
They shall be speaking forever
(The people shall hear them forever)
Let the sea bear witness
Let the wind bear witness
Let the earth bear witness
Let the stars bear witness
The link did not post but if you want to find the video tribute try /watch?v=kEoEUdOKhsA after youtube.com I found it very moving; and bearing witness is the least we can do.
I’ve been remiss in not thanking all the regulars who once again have been doing all the heavy lifting in battling trolls on this and all the other threads. Thank-you Mespo, Buddha, Mike A, Mike S., Vince, Jill, FFLEO, Rafflaw, Gyges, Lotta, GWLSmom, and please forgive me it is getting late so to all unmentioned thank-you too!
I think we are abjectly hypocritical regarding covering up our own torture of people and the killings of innocent civilians in Afghanistan and then condemning the Iranian government. As Commander-in-Chief, President Obama is ultimately responsible for those deaths and for not dealing with the torture issue. He bemoans the violence in Iran and the death on one martyred woman (as well he should) but in one misguided airstrikes *his* troops kill dozens of innocent men, women, and children in a single strike. One recent B-1 airstrike that killed civilians had violated standing policy.
We have lost our moral authority with the rest of the world.
In the following article, Greenwald and others are thinking along the same lines as I am.
_________________________________
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/06/24/photos/index.html
{Quote:
Wednesday June 24, 2009 05:25 EDT
The “Neda video,” torture, and the truth-revealing power of images
For the last question at his press conference yesterday, Obama was asked by CNN’s Suzanne Malveaux about his reaction to that video and to reports that Iranians are refraining from protesting due to fear of such violence. As Obama was answering — attesting to how “heartbreaking” he found the video; how “anybody who sees it knows that there’s something fundamentally unjust” about the violence; and paying homage to “certain international norms of freedom of speech, freedom of expression” — Helen Thomas, who hadn’t been called on, interrupted to ask Obama to reconcile those statements about the Iranian images with his efforts at home to suppress America’s own torture photos (“Then why won’t you allow the photos –”).
End Quote}
____________________________________
FFLEO,
Hear hear!
How about those great freedom fighting terrorists upon hearing about the coming air strikes who herded a bunch of women and children into an area the slaughtered them and then pointed blame at the air strikes as the reason.
But no none of the progressives that get ALL their info off the Huffington Post want to deal with that reality.
How about those new “rules of engagement” that were issued by the new commander in Afghanistan? That should make the progressive crowd real happy.
It is the hypocritical progressive crowd who do NOT want to stay on topic about the death of Neda and the INITIAL lack of sympathy of our great leader.
It is the progressives who expose their fiegned compassion. Then use the death of Neda as a launching pad for their anti-American/blame America for everything/hate America rants.
The progressives are the ones soiling the memory of this poor woman.
Keep believing the terrorist propaganda that the U.S. military is indiscriminately bombing innocent women and children. Like I said, it is a fact that the terrorists are the ones “orchestrating” these massacres. Then the progressives jump on the band-wagon to spew their blame America rhetotric.
S1,
Be mindful of who you are calling liberal or progressive. I am a conservative, 30-year registered Republican; however, I do not follow any fringe stripe of any ideology that runs counter to fact, reason, logic, honor, critical thinking, or the scientific method.
Sicilian, your comments dart about the landscape like a frantic squirrel, rendering any sort of coherent discussion virtually impossible. I frankly have little time for those who purport to understand the innermost feelings of others. I also have little time for those who believe that the answer to the problems in the Middle East is another Crusade against Islam. That brilliant strategy, despite its biblical appeal to some of us, has succeeded only in transforming one corrupt secular state into another corrupt Islamic republic. If you are so outraged by what you unilaterally perceive to be “feigned compassion,” quit posting on your blog, enlist, put on a uniform and ship out to Afghanistan where you can put your world views into concrete practice. No? I didn’t think so.
Mike A,
Unlike you I am NOT a slave to a certain ideolouge. I am NOT a hypocrite. I call out any injustice unlike you who manipulates everything you say to fit your adgenda.
I have NEVER advocated a crusade> NEVER once. But that is the M.O. of your types who try to demonize those who disagree with you by sticking labels on them and fabricating things they’ve said.
Don’t give me that enlist garbage. I’m much too old to RE_ENLIST!!!!!! I did my time.
My problem is catering and trying to legitimize everything about the Arab/Muslim world. Their societies are a travesty to the rights of all humans . And if they didn’t sit on top of the worlds largets oil reserves we wouldn’t have to cater to them. Because the world needs their energy to run it’s economies and guarantee are own soveriegnty all of mankind is held hostage to their whims and has to pretend and look the other way at the atrocities going on in those societies.
I wish we’d get off oil. Come up with something, anything so Americans could stop fighting wars and dying to make sure the region is stable and the oil keeps flowing.
Get off your high progressive horse and stop looking through eveything through the prism of your blame America adgenda!
bok bok bok bok BOK! ba Kaw! bok bok bok
Blame America has nothing to do with it and is just more Neocon code wording and demonizing of what you have a demonstrated inability to understand. Your twisted ideological prism that says you have the sole right to determine the value of the entire Arab/Muslim world based upon the actions of known smaller groups of bad actors. “Their societies are a travesty to the rights of all humans.” Your words. Racist and bigoted much, Sil? Not all Muslims are lunatics as much as you’d like to paint them that way, Sil. Not all Muslim states are our enemies either. Would you be so angry about oil if Whitey McChristian owned it? I get the impression, eh, not so much. So before you start telling anyone, yet alone someone you’ve labeled a progressive, to get off their “Blame America agenda” – for which you have no proof, you might want to consider that most people of conscience do indeed pay attention to the ravings of racist bigots – for which you have provided ample evidence that you are. They pay attention to them so they can ridicule them. Again – “Their societies are a travesty to the rights of all humans.” Your words. A racist and bigoted generalization.
Sicilian, I do not attempt to cater to or legitimize anything in the Arab world, or in the European world, or in the Australian world, or in the African world, etc. I don’t need to and nobody has ever asked me to. I do not regard the United States as the sole judge of what is right and good and noble in the rest of the world. I do not believe in a foreign policy which promotes military, cultural or religious imperialism. I do not believe that this country has a moral duty to take aim at every dictator and tyrant in the world. I believe that our continued dependence on oil reserves controlled by regimes content to live in the 11th century is a failure of imagination, resolve and political leadership in this country, aided in large part by a long and unholy alliance between powerful politicians and powerful corporations. If you are as familiar with the history of this country as you appear to be with that of Mesopotamia, you would understand that we have frequently protected the interests of private economic forces in the natural resources of other countries through the orchestration of coups or by direct intervention. The annals of our relations with Central and South America bear witness to that. You may regard my opposition to that sort of adventurism as part of a “blame America” syndrome if you wish, but by doing so you are only ratifying historical wrongs.
We can look for “travesties of human rights” elsewhere than in oil producing countries. However, you appear bent upon focusing your rage against those admittedly tyrannical regimes. I honestly can’t tell where you’re coming from or what you propose the U.S. should be doing about human rights abuses. Your rants against “progressives” and the “Arab/Muslim” world (BTW, Iranians are Persians) and the so-called “blame America” agenda, whatever in the world that means, is unenlightening, unconstructive and arrogant. If you truly wish for a dialogue, define the wrongs as you perceive them and propose your solutions.
Mike A,
once again you use my post to rant against all the ills of America.
I certainly know the U.S. history in manipulating world affairs to control natural resources.
I am well awarte of the unholy alliance b/t the Saud dynasty and the Bush family who has acvted as the Saud’s henchmen ever since oil was discovered under their primitive beaudoin feet. I am well ware that almost every military action in the ME is done to p[rotect the business interests of the Bush family’s business partners the Saud’s.
I wish the U.S. could find a COST effective source of energy so the world will no longer be held hostage by these primitive, inhumane, medieval, ignorant, fanatical desert dwellers.
I also realize that untill we do develop a COST EFFECTIVE alternative energy, the soverignty of the U.S. and much of the Western world depends on the ability to maintain a flow of oil at a reasonable price.
Are the Bush’s/Cheney’s and all the oil barons in the U.S. and the ME getting rich off our dependance on oil? YES. But untill we develop a COST EFFECTIVE way to energize our societies then I am willing to accept the “powers that be” getting rich and military men dying so that the world can run, so that the world can drive around no matter the put-put car they drive, so goods can be transported, so planes can fly, etc, etc,
Right now the combustion engine is what gets us going, what makes us move, our pesence is needed in the ME.
You just wantn it all your way then blame America for everything
Buddha,
Go ask all the minorities like women or gays to name a few if they don’t have their human rights violated.
Ya, I know the Muslim world is bastion of love and acceptance. All you progessives that whine and moan about every American denial and violation of rights and freedoms wouldn’t last a day in the Muslim world. You’d get rounded up and locked up and the key would be thrown away and no one would hear a word about your outrage and dissent. You’d be longing for your days in America to rant and rave against your own country on your blogs and peacefully protest without fear of facing a Tianeman square or Iran incident.
It’s the little progressive trick to label everything they disagree with as racsist and bigoted. Ya, that Sadaam was a great humanist, Oh ya, great protector of the enviroment when he destroyed one of the worlds greatest ECO-systems to flush out the Shia’s.
You are the one who blames America for everything not me. You are the one who forgives evbery foriegn transgression as retaliation for American antagonism.
Ask the people who live in foriegn countries if they have the same freedoms and protection of freedoms as they do in America.
I don’t care who owns the oil or who gets rich off it. I am only concerned that untill we develop a COST effective alternative or something other than the combustion engine to fuel the world and transport ourselves and the goods neccessary for our survival and soveriegnty that all nations are able to get there hands on the oil needed to do the business of the world.
And do NOT think for a second those dealing with the Arab/Muslim world suck it up and bite their toungues in dealing with these primatives.
It’s the progressives like you who want to criticize the West and legitimize the Arab/Muslim world b/c it’s easy for you to spew your imperializing, colonizing, blame America for all the ills and evils in the world.
You sit in your progressive ivy-tower, tooling around in your limosines b passing moral judgement and bashing America better to promote your devious adgenda. But I guarantee you’d be howling if your nice comfortable lifestyle was disrupted.
See, I’m not a hypocrite like you and your progressive ilk. I LOVE my WESTERN lifestyle. And I expect my elected leaders to PROTECT the soveriegnty of the lifestyle of ALL AMERICANS. If that means the powers that be get rich or America organizes coup’s and colonizes the underdeveloped countries. Hey, it’s OK by me. I feel fortunate to be born here and I’m not consumed by guilt because of it and I won’t apologize.
If you’re so mad at America and don’t like it’s ways then STOP partaking in the benefits of being an American.
Sil,
You can try to paint me as unpatriotic some other way, but transparent is as transparent does, Mr. “You Hate America”. Well, that’ll be just about as effective as your other buddies tactic of trying to call me un-American directly. It’s untrue and it’ll get you run through the shredder – assuming I think YOU, unlike your buddy, have the ability to be mistaken as a reasonable actor. You trolls don’t learn very well, do you?
You still haven’t explained why you’re a bigot.
buddha,
I’m not the bigot. As I’ve said, that is the little progressive trick. You demonize your opponents and attach labels to them in order to give yourselves the appearance of a higher moral authority.
You progressives just do not like to confront the truth and when the bold truth is pointed out to you (i.e. the inhumanit, primitiveness, barbarity, revisionist nonsense of Ara/Muslim culture, etc.) you only rise up in faux-indignation to accuse your opponents and then you start playing the finger-pointing ‘what-about-them game. (Don’t you know oh great student of Siddarthura that two wrongs don’t make a right) And that kind of tit-for-tat is an intellectual shortcut used by psuedo intellectuals to dodge the issue and get on their soapbox to rage about the ills of everyone else except those specific to the issue.
But you are like all psuedo-intellectual progressives who can never stay on point of an argument. You try to take the argument off course to bring it onto a topic you can rail about to make yourself seem intelligent and to get pats on the back from all the other hypocrites in your crowd.
I stand by my “generalizations” of Arab/Muslims and their culture because anything different than those generalizations is certainly in the minority.
Unlike you who sits in his ivy-tower, cribbing all your knowledge from the Huffington post or salon.com, I myself have had first hand experience with radical Muslim’s (read my blog about ‘Fake Muslims’) AND so-called moderate Muslims AND suppossed impartial academic’s. And each and everyone of them is stubborn in their defense of anything Islam and get extremely hostile to any critical questioning of Islam. I personally have never even mentioned Christianity let alone defended it despite your repeated progressive trick to lure me into an argument on that topic.
You like all your progressive types refuse to address the hypocricies and inconsistencies and contradictions and revisions and abominations that are inherrant in Islam. You do not have the knowledge on the subject so you resort to your little progressive rhetorical trick of trying to hurl unfounded accusations to drag the subject into a zone you are comfortable ranting about.
You are the hypocrite. You are the one that turns every little circumstance into an anti-American rant. If you do not like what is done on a foriegn policy basis to protect the soveriegnty of America and the Western lifestyle that youy are so comfortable living then I implore you and you limosine crowd to downsize your lifestyles.
Unlike you progressive types I have fully admitted that I accept the corruption and enrichment of the Bush and Saud dynasty. aS A FORMER 11Bravo, I proudly served the interests of the corporations and the political elite in order to protect the soveriegnty and lifestyles of all Americans. Do I think it is fair? No. Could I changs it if I had the personal power to do so? Yes. But untill we get off oil (With something COST effective) then I am willing to accept the realities and live with the cicumstances.
I will call out these primitive, barbarians in the ME for what they are. And point out that the only reason why we give them credibility is b/c they stand atop most of the world’s reserves. My beef is with those like Obama and all in his progressive crowd who want to legitimize that barbaric culture beyond the pragmatic minimal reason we have to legitimize them.
Keep going through life with blinders on and talking out of both sides of your mouth so you can argue the issues from both sides of the spectrum so you can claim the faux moral superiority that all you truly compassionless progressives wrap yourselves in to make it seem that you are “right” and “good”
Look in the mirror and finally come to terms with the hypocrite that you are.
Sil,
You realized you’re a laughing stock yet? You should really take AY’s advice.
Buddha:
“Look in the mirror and finally come to terms with the hypocrite that you are.”
**************
Try as you might as you stare into that mirror you will never see a convicted felon. I wonder if your adversary can say the same thing!
Mespo:
I didn’t quite understand your last post here.
Buddha didn’t say “Look in the mirror . . .”, Sicillian did.
So what did it mean exactly about mirrors and felons?
And who is whose adversary?
And why are we adversaries anyway, cumon people now, smile upon your brother everybody get together, try to luv one another right now.