The scandal involving University of Illinois Law School is getting worse by the day. We previously discussed the scandal involving the admissions process and the use of “special admits” where deans circumvent the usual process to guarantee admission for certain well-connected students.The Chicago Tribune continues to uncover shocking examples of manipulation of the admissions process at Illinois by politicians and donors. This may be an example of why admissions are like sausage and legislation — things that you should not watch being made.
The latest disclosure involves an unqualified student who was given admission in exchange for a quid pro quo arrangement — a promise of five jobs for graduates if the student was admitted.
Once again, the main culprit appears to be University of Illinois Chancellor Richard Herman who comes across more like a patronage boss than an academic. The other party is again former dean Heidi Hurd, who objects but does not appear to fight particularly hard for the academic integrity of the process or school. 
In one e-mail exchange, Herman forces Hurd to admit an unqualified applicant backed by former (and now disgraced) Gov. Rod Blagojevich. Herman appears to have been negotiating with Blagojevich political operative and Trustee Lawrence Eppley. The student was a relative of major political donor Kerry Peck. Herman acts like a petty party functionary. When Hurd objects, Herman responds that the request came “Straight from the G. My apologies. Larry has promised to work on jobs (5). What counts?” Hurd responds with “Only very high-paying jobs in law firms that are absolutely indifferent to whether the five have passed their law school classes or the Bar.” Hurd then goes not to suggest that the five must come from the “bottom of the class” — presumably a way of increasing the school’s placement figures for the annual ranking by U.S. News and World Report.
Hurd treated the process as inevitable and, instead of refusing such admits, she promised to get a good deal, telling the admissions staff in 2003 “I’ll do my best to keep the number of Provostian admits to a minimum, and extract payment for them.”
The fact is that such special admits occur in some form in most, if not all, schools. Schools like to pick legacy admissions for families with multi-generations at the school and also favor the children of major donors. However, deans are expected to guarantee that such factors are given some but not determinative weight — requiring that the students be otherwise competitive and not substantially below admissions standards.
While Hurd can be criticized for failing to fight harder, she clearly did object to the process. Yet, the quid pro quo arrangement was an outrage and Hurd should never have participated in such an arrangement. There is a time when a dean should resign rather than allow such a corruption of the process.
The person most at fault is obviously Herman who should lose his job over this controversy. Herman abandoned any semblance of academic integrity and independence. He actively worked to corrupt the admissions process, even after the objections of the dean. The trading of unqualified admissions for jobs is an outrageous act for both Herman and Hurd. Eppley also needs to be removed from any continued position as trustee and barred from any later position of authority with the university.
I just spoke at the University of Illinois to a group of judges and I ran into a member of the Illinois faculty who expressed his utter disgust with both Herman and Hurd. What is sad is that this is one of the finest law schools in the country and both the students and faculty deserved far better treatment.
These emails demean the entire teaching academy and haggling over price like jobs does little to improve the situation. It brings to mind Winston Churchill’s famous exchange at dinner with a woman when he asked her if she would sleep with him for one million dollars. When she said that she would, he asked her if she would sleep with him for one dollar. She was deeply insulted and asked “What do you think I am, a prostitute?” “Madam” Churchill replied, “We’ve already established what you are, now we’re just haggling over the price.” It appears that the price at Illinois is five jobs. While I do not believe that many deans or provosts would have accepted such an exchange, there are many deans and provosts who are all too willing to haggle over price.
While some defenders suggest that this is an inevitable factor for any public school subject to legislative authority, I disagree. First, as a public institution, the provost and dean has an added obligation to guarantee the citizens of Illinois that these valuable slots are being awarded fairly and openly. Second, if the dean had fought this corruption, she would have had a large and powerful alumni in the state to back her. The Illinois graduates are fiercely loyal and hold powerful positions in the bar and the courts. Some of the judges who I spoke with last week were Illinois graduates and expressed outrage at the manipulation of the process. Finally, regardless of whether you are a public or a private institution, you have an independent obligation as an academic to protect the integrity of your school and the academy at large.
I am not surprised that a bottom feeder like Blogojevich would degrade this process, but it is the participation of academics like Herman and Hurd that is a shocking addition to this scandal.
For the full story, click here.
Hopefully they do not go the way of Paul Quinn in Dallas. They have lost all accreditations and are appealing the decision. But let us not forget that one Judge of the US Sct stated that only certain law school students would be selected to clerk. Whats the difference if the process is is not wide open.
Money and Bull S** goes a long, long way. Look what Texas has done for the rest of the US.
We need to weed out the Ferengi aspect of U.S. culture so that an ever increasing culture of corruption is avoided …
http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2009/05/life-in-ferengi-home-world.html
it is time for affirmative action of all stripes to end. Sub-qualified minority and wealthy students should not be admitted to colleges and professional schools by the “force” of government mandate nor by the “force” of their parents pocket book.
let all compete on an even playing field with hardwork and intelligence being the currency for admission not genetics or wealth.
The stench that follows Blago just won’t go away. It amazes me tht the University of Illinois does not have enough “clout” of its own to rebut these legislative admissions. I think the only alternative that HH had in this situation was not to quit her job in defiance of the sick process, but to go to the Tribune herself. That would have been the only “threat” that would have had some muscle to it. Such a sad situation for current students and faculty. Is there any information if this admitted student has been successful in his classes at the Law School?
I think every school should have admission by lotto, and I’m serious. Anyone can apply, put the name in the hopper and draw out the number of slots open. This would make for a much more diverse population at our universities. The schools should have extensive remedial help to anyone that needs it because their schooling occurred in areas that were underserved, or they are rich, well served but stupid. If a school can’t teach almost anyone, they should be in another business. This could break down class barriers and really bring new perspectives to our universities. It also gives everyone a chance. Give scholarships based on need with all the money saved from the admissions process. Tell the donors to get stuffed.
Jill,
I don’t agree that a lotto would be the best process to admit students into a law school. The process that is already in place works fine when the politicians and the donors are not allowed extraordinary “clout” as was the case in this University of Illinois case.
rafflaw,
I don’t think it works fine. The elite schools produce way too many people like Yoo et al. These schools don’t have enough class diversity. They also don’t select for ethical diversity. There’s a real reason why many of our current moral monsters come from our most elite institutions. I interact with many of these types and I have to say their thinking is ignorant and limited. If people are forced to deal with others who don’t come from their own background, it can open up minds and hearts. Our society tends to look way down on people who don’t come from the “right” kinds of family, schools, neighborhoods etc. We seem unwilling to recognize intelligence, except in a very narrow, shallow form. This is a loss to our society. There’s a lot of talent in this world. I see it all the time. We should be open to that talent. Instead, we waste it.
Jill,
I understand your concern for diversity, but that can be achieved and is achieved at many schools, without a lotto for all students. What incentive do students have for good grades in high school and college if they are Valedictorians and unable to get into a good Law Schools like the University of Illinois, John Marshall Law School ( I had to include my alma mater! ), Loyola University of Chicago, Northwestern, Univeristy of Chicago, Harvard, or George Washington University Law School? These schools are increasing their diversity, but they are not giving away the farm. I hope Professor Turely doesn’t get upset that I put GW last on my list?
This is a very important examination of preventative detention. In the reality based community PD is known as imprisonment by fiat. It’s just another hideous injustice brought to you by those who studied at our finest institutions of “learning”.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/
rafflaw,
There should be no incentive for grades, only learning. The horrible pressure on young people to get good grades impedes knowledge. These young people are often narrow and focused on rote knowledge. I feel our whole system needs to change. It doesn’t foster understanding, it demands mindless obediance. It shows no compassion or desire for beauty and creativity. It’s not about fostering children, it’s about controlling them. The sooner it goes, the better off we’ll all be.
People want to learn, feel, explore, and experiment. We should go with that and quit being concerned about grades.
Jill writes: There should be no incentive for grades, only learning. The horrible pressure on young people to get good grades impedes knowledge. These young people are often narrow and focused on rote knowledge. I feel our whole system needs to change. It doesn’t foster understanding, it demands mindless obediance. It shows no compassion or desire for beauty and creativity. It’s not about fostering children, it’s about controlling them. The sooner it goes, the better off we’ll all be.
People want to learn, feel, explore, and experiment. We should go with that and quit being concerned about grades.
me: I totally disagree. grades whether they are letter grades or narrative evaluations are crucial for students ability to mark their own path through academia. in this way they are able to compare their progress not only with their peers but with themselves and are a great motivator. The academic path is a narrow one for some students who know what they want to do educationally speaking, like my kid, who was accepted to law school right out of high school and graduated high school with a 4.6 gpa (lots of AP classes). The grades she got in high school got her into the university she wanted to attend and its law school and the grades she gets in law school among other areas of evaluation will get her into a job she wants.
for students who are not academically motivated, who don’t care about learning or grades, releasing them from the process won’t do anything except underscore the meaningless of education and there are lots of kids who just don’t see the value in going to school and don’t have the love of learning that my kid has. my nephew is a great example of this.
academia does not limit ones appreciation for beauty, truth, creativity or imagination. those things live well and flourish in the ivory tower of one’s choice. I don’t see that mindless obedience you mentioned at all. I see kids who care and kids who don’t and I see parents who care and parents who don’t.
Frank Zappa wrote in the liner nots of one of his albums in the 60′s that teachers work for you. literally. they are our employees and are answerable to us.He wrote that it is responsibility of the student to educate him/herself and the adult standing in front of the room is only a facilitator. don’t like the curriculum? do additional reading. not enough art and music classes offered? get them after school. take your kids to museums in our town. travel abroad during vacations. make an appointment with the teacher, the principal. Once your kid gets to college you don’t get parent teacher conference but you kid gets to go to office hours and by the time s/he gets to college should have developed the ability to advocate for oneself.
grades are the only way we have of communicating the successes or failures of the student, not the system. if kids don’t do the work, they should not be rewarded with places in college or professional schools. the thing is this: college may not be for everyone. Some kids might benefit more from time spent in the working world or in some alternative path of gaining experience. college is always there for those who find a need/reason to go at last not at once.
GWMom,
I agree with you that grades are a good indicater of the work being done. We are not all the same and the system works for the most students who are willing to work for it.
GWL,
Grades don’t necessarily correlate with real accomplishment or work. Evaluations of our work are important but have nothing to do with grading. There are many ways of evaluating ourselves and others– letter grades are one of the worst. I must point again to the many examples in our current ruling elite of there being no correspondence between doing good work in one’s life and grades or graduation from prestige universities. I do agree that college isn’t for everyone. People like GWB, Dick and friends as well as he current crew wasted the resources of a good education. They learned only how to manipulate the system and gain power. They did not gain knowledge or wisdom and they have only added misery to the lives of others.
Here’s a well researched book to back up what I’m saying:
“Our basic strategy for raising children, teaching students, and managing workers can be summarized in six words: Do this and you’ll get that. We dangle goodies (from candy bars to sales commissions) in front of people in much the same way that we train the family pet.
In this groundbreaking book, Alfie Kohn shows that while manipulating people with incentives seems to work in the short run, it is a strategy that ultimately fails and even does lasting harm. Our workplaces and classrooms will continue to decline, he argues, until we begin to question our reliance on a theory of motivation derived from laboratory animals.
Drawing from hundreds of studies, Kohn demonstrates that people actually do inferior work when they are enticed with money, grades, or other incentives. Programs that use rewards to change people’s behavior are similarly ineffective over the long run. Promising goodies to children for good behavior can never produce anything more than temporary obedience. In fact, the more we use artificial inducements to motivate people, the more they lose interest in what we’re bribing them to do. Rewards turn play into work, and work into drudgery.
Step by step, Kohn marshals research and logic to prove that pay-for-performance plans cannot work; the more an organization relies on incentives, the worse things get. Parents and teachers who care about helping students to learn, meanwhile, should be doing everything possible to help them forget that grades exist. Even praise can become a verbal bribe that gets kids hooked on our approval.
Rewards and punishments are just two sides of the same coin — and the coin doesn’t buy very much. What is needed, Kohn explains, is an alternative to both ways of controlling people. The final chapters offer a practical set of strategies for parents, teachers, and managers that move beyond the use of carrots or sticks.
Seasoned with humor and familiar examples, Punished by Rewards presents an argument that is unsettling to hear but impossible to dismiss.”
http://www.alfiekohn.org/books/pbr.htm
Grades correlate best with family income, which is one reason our nominal meritocracy is self-perpetuating.
Nothing surprising here. Harvard, Yale, Stanford have been trading admissions for money and prestige for decades and longer.
In New York City, the 20-something owner of The New York Observer newspaper, Jared Kushner, was admitted to Harvard not long after his family had donated over $2 million. He was then admitted to NYU for law and business degrees after a chair was endowed.
When the time comes, Barack Obama’s daughters will admit universities, not the other way around. They will tell University X that it will have the privilege of accepting them. There academic performance will have nothing to do with it.
This phenomenon is only becoming more severe as the United States becomes ever more a society of two classes — the new nobility and the new serfdom.
“I think every school should have admission by lotto, and I’m serious. Anyone can apply, put the name in the hopper and draw out the number of slots open. This would make for a much more diverse population at our universities. The schools should have extensive remedial help to anyone that needs it because their schooling occurred in areas that were underserved, or they are rich, well served but stupid.”
Jill:
you have to have some sort of standard for entry. While I agree that you dont have to be a rocket scientist to attend law or medical school and that Poli Sci and Zoology may not be the most rigorous academic pursuits, there still are those pesky LSATs and MCATs that one needs to get decent scores or attending is out of the question.
Your way would allow too many unprepared people to attend and would most probably lead to a huge attrition rate, and would definitely cost a staggering amount of money.
You cannot take a sows ear and make a silk purse out of it. As much as you may want to believe in egalitarianism, the very nature of the human condition is some people are more equal than others. I for one would love to have the looks of Cary Grant, the brains of Steven Hawkings and Bill Gates’ money and Michael Jordans athletic ability.
But unfortunately I do not.
When you try and make someone something they are not, it leads to emotional trouble. Taking a person that is mentally unable to handle the rigors of law school will not lead to an egalitarian society. The best way is to allow equal and fair access to all based on merit, which is typically a combination of hard work and intellectual aptitude.
There is nothing wrong with digging a ditch for a living if one does it well.
Hugh Sansom:
excellent point.
Jill:
“In this groundbreaking book, Alfie Kohn shows that while manipulating people with incentives seems to work in the short run, it is a strategy that ultimately fails and even does lasting harm. Our workplaces and classrooms will continue to decline, he argues, until we begin to question our reliance on a theory of motivation derived from laboratory animals.”
W. Edwards Deming has been talking about this for years, since the 50′s I imagine. So the work you site is neither new nor cutting edge. And in fact your idea about grades was a Deming proposal from many years ago. It is one of the few things I disagree with him about.
Jill writes: Grades don’t necessarily correlate with real accomplishment or work. Evaluations of our work are important but have nothing to do with grading. There are many ways of evaluating ourselves and others– letter grades are one of the worst. I must point again to the many examples in our current ruling elite of there being no correspondence between doing good work in one’s life and grades or graduation from prestige universities. I do agree that college isn’t for everyone. People like GWB, Dick and friends as well as he current crew wasted the resources of a good education. They learned only how to manipulate the system and gain power. They did not gain knowledge or wisdom and they have only added misery to the lives of others.
me: again, I disagree. If you don’t study, you should not pass the test. Math for example, or spelling, or reading comprehension or english composition, or history exams are all tools for assessing if a student has done the work learned the material and can demonstrate that accomplishment. Kids who do not turn in their homework do not do as well as kids who do.
GWB was a C student and had he not belonged to a powerful family would never have been ladled from one vat of privilege to another. who knows, had he not been a scion of wealth and privilege he might have been motivated to get better grades.
how adults use their knowledge has little to do with their GPA. ever wonder why after x number of years in the workplace no one asks you what you got on your SAT’s ? That’s because once you enter the workplace you have the annual evaluation which is largely a subjective assessment of one’s capabilities and accomplishments sometimes crafted by someone who may not like you personally and thusly gives you a lower eval. Your pay raises are tied to this system.
now. which do you like better?
“This phenomenon is only becoming more severe as the United States becomes ever more a society of two classes — the new nobility and the new serfdom.”
I’d like to follow up on Hugh Sansom’s point and then swing over to Jill’s.
Hugh cuts to the essence of this and in doing so exposes the worst evil being perpetrated here. The essence of the American myth is that anyone, from any circumstance, can achieve success by dint of hard work and intelligence. The main path towards achieving success is via education. While some may protest that entrepreneurship, doesn’t necessarily require a good education, I would respond that good, available credit is what makes the difference between small business success and failure. Poor kids don’t have access to the same credit resources, that Bill Gates for instance did as the child of upper middle class parents. Therefore the chief career path for the underpriveleged is education.
When we see things like this instance at UI/LS and the image of GW Bush being admitted to Yale via legacy, it gives lie to the “hard work will lead to success” mythology. Instead it exposes the hard to face truth that in our country we do have a nobility, a shrinking middle/mercantile class and a growing peasantry. The truth is that our politics could schematically be called a battle between those who want to entrench the nobility and expand its hold; against those who want this society to be run on a more egalitarian basis.
Some might counter that there are wealthy families that rise and fall all the time, so that gives lie to the idea of an entrenched nobility. I would demolish that by asking those proponents to look at the history of European Nobility, where noble family’s fortunes also rose and fell. What was true then and what remains the same in the US today is that the “elite,” our nobility, for the most part remains constant given that their progeny enjoy advantages beyond everyone else in their respective age group.
Which brings me to Jill’s point. I would disagree with her only in that at some points in a child’s educational career there needs to be measurements of progress and potential, in order to allow the individual to find the career niche best suited to them. Where I fully agree with her is in the fact that our educational system is organized stupidly and actually most children learn in spite of it rather than because of it.
The reasons for this are to me two fold. First, the system is set up to advantage the elite (nobility). Second, the system is organized as if it were a factory for learning and fails to take into account that different children, learn and mature at different rates. Our system sets up unfair competition between children of similar ages, but different growth stages. It also has become infested with notions that bestow and award status, to the detriment of those who are not ready to earn those rewards and then find themselves debarred from being able to catch up.
My educational guru is an Englishman name A.S. Neil, who wrote the seminal book “Summerhill” in the 50′s. He had set up the equivalent of an elementary school for supposed problem children. In his system he accounted for the differences in maturation and rather than impose the system on the child, let the child access the system when it was ready. He achieved notable success with these methods. This should be a model for our elementary schools and at some age, perhaps fourteen, the tests differentiating the available paths towards higher education should be given. Many in the educational field thought Neill to be just dotty,
however, I believe he was prescient and indicated a viable path towards intelligent education.
GWL,
I reject the terms in which you place both education and work. I do not reject them in the sense of saying, they do not exist. I am saying there is another and better way of doing things for both adults and children. Alfie Kohn did a lot of research on the way we normally think of and organize school and the workplace. He shows that not only is this not a good way of doing things, it’s counterproductive. I agree with Mike S., about evaluations. I said: “Evaluations of our work are important but have nothing to do with grading. There are many ways of evaluating ourselves and others– letter grades are one of the worst.”
One problem (and it’s a big one as Mike clearly elucidated) with how we do things is it leads, not to a meritocracy, but a plutocracy. This is why we keep getting the same type of people in power no matter what color, gender, sexual orientation or ethnicity they may be. It is why the people who have brought the Constitution and our financial system to the brink are precisely the educated elite. (Remember that the lawyers on trial for war crimes are considered the best and the brightest. Also, interestingly, even Harvard Business School is reevaluating how they are teaching their students. They came to the conslusion that they were in fact doing something wrong, as so many people responsible for the financil collapse came from their MBA program.) Things must be evaluated on whether they create a good life for oneself, for others and the environment. We are clearly failing in this task. We must change the idea of what it means to learn, work and be sucessful in this society. All of our well-being depends on it.
rafflaw,
I don’t think it works fine. The elite schools produce way too many people like Yoo et al. These schools don’t have enough class diversity. They also don’t select for ethical diversity. There’s a real reason why many of our current moral monsters come from our most elite institutions. I interact with many of these types and I have to say their thinking is ignorant and limited
–
You haven’t the slightest idea, once again, of what you are talking about-probably because, as you say, you don’t assoicae with the people you ‘despise’.
From the beginning, JIll, I have percieved you as a ‘victim’ with an alternating ‘cross to bear’, ‘chip on your shoulder’, and ‘hair across your ass’…
You are one of the most overall daily negative personalties I have ever comes across in my lifetime. You detest people of privilege, without a doubt, but also those of notable advanced intelligence who are recipients of extraordinary opportunity on their own merit based on talent, hard work AND, yes, luck or fate.
ALL OF IT just burns your simpering petty behind…
Barrack Obama is a prime example. You never could stand him and if you ever want a anti-liberal radio show you should call up Rush Lamebough now. He may be hiring for a summer apprentice. In fact, check out Clear Channel who may have a Sports Channel you can jump into the background with at specified times.
Crappy job, but you might like it.
If it gets you off here, that would be fine with moi.
So long, now.
Patty C
Patty C
Crappy job,
So long, now.
Patty C
Good Bye Now, with all of your rudeness.
Go back to who ever you were taunting when you were not here. It has been some pleasant debate without All of your nastiness.
Jill,
You add a lot to this blawg and please never forget that fact, regardless of any other comments.
I will not say that again because you understand how the majority of people respond to you here.
FFLEO,
Thank you! As soon as I saw the post I didn’t read it because I knew it would be a lulu!!! Oh well. (I wasn’t sure who was going to get it though because she hates both GWL and me. I was leaning towards myself and got that right, it appears!) Sometimes people are very predictable.
Leo anb Ay, let me add that Jill has made invaluable contributionns to this site for years. I hope she continues.
Copy that on Jill.
Is it really shocking that the elites by cash (as opposed to by merit) operate by their own set of rules, all the while deprecating those poor souls who enjoy the meagerest of advantage afforded them by paltry government programs? This “pecking order” has existed among the ruling classes for decades in our Country and we only see glimpses of it when someone gets caught with their shorts around their ankles. Advantages, fair or not, are never wasted by this crowd, and the only way to stop it is to open the phantasmagorical world of college/law school admissions to public scrutiny. I say it all the time, but sunlight is still the best disinfectant, and if this wasn’t a legal blog, I wouldn’t even think of giving Justice Brandeis the attribution he deserves for thinking of it first and thus heap the credit on me alone. Call me an elite!
Jill,
I think everyone likes you. Your ideals? Maybe not, but you are not afraid to say what you mean and mean what you say. That is very lacking in our society. Keep on contributing, and maybe I might be lucky enough to meet you in that run down trailer that you supposedly live in.
It does not take much to make a house a home, it take a big heart to make a home a home. Keep up your Big Heart. I’ll respond each and every time some one disparages you or for that fact anyone. I am trying to be more tactful. Buddha is learnin me, maybe not, I may of had this nice streak in me all along.
Wow!
I leave for a few hours to do the lawn and things get a little nasty! Hang in there Jill. We don’t always see eye to eye on the issues, but there is no place for attacks like that. Have a good weekend.
Thank you to Vince, Buddha and again to A.Y.!
What you said does mean alot to me. We have all disagreed with each other at some time, (or many times) but there are many good people who post here and I’m lucky to know you (god I’m afraid to use that word now, it’s been sullied!).
I would love to tell you where I really live, you would die laughing! There’s a good reason why I don’t or I would–close to a witness protection kind of reason
But here’s a couple of real kickers–you know us hillbillies: we go back a long way, long enough for me to have a letter from the Revolutionary War. This means I could technically, belong to a certain group that traces their linage to that time. It means Mike A. isn’t allowed to argue with me. And I got me a genuine scholarship to Harvard but didn’t go there. Pretty ironic huh?
So thanks again.
Thanks rafflaw! I didn’t see your post until after mine. Ditto what I said to everyone else. Hope your grandson is well and happy.
Rafflaw,
What, a high-priced attorney doing his own lawn!
When I read articles like this, I think of journeymen attorneys like you who work hard every day and whose profession is disparaged by actions of dishonest attorneys, as illustrated in this story. The fact that you try to post within this blawg every evening after your lawyerly chores are through for the day, and then again in the morning before you go to work, does not go unnoticed.
The other fine attorneys here are also dedicated and they are often more prolific posters, but you strike me as from a somewhat different lawyerly mould than the others; more of a law mechanic as opposed to a flashier Grand Prix racecar aficionado type (now, please no misinterpretations from other attorneys).
I mean my statements in the best sense possible, because that is the type of LEO I considered myself.
Jill
Thank you and your welcome.
What you said does mean a lot to me. we are all in this life together.
We have all disagreed with each other at some time, (or many times) but there are many good people who post here and I’m lucky to know you (god I’m afraid to use that word now, it’s been sullied!).
I have disagreed and not understood many times maybe because I did not understand is why I disagreed. But you still have the right to stay and say what you want. Why? Because this is the modern day peace tree.
I would love to tell you where I really live (NO YOU WOULOS NOT)
you would die laughing! I hear them trailers come in many different sizes now. Maybe some are three storys tall, I hear.
There’s a good reason why I don’t or I would–close to a witness protection kind of reason (I don’t understand)
But here’s a couple of real kickers–you know us hillbillies: Yep, you gotta have 32 of ya to have a full set of teeth. And I hear ya invented the toothbrush.
We go back a long way, (Can’t be many splits, 2 maybe at the max) long enough for me to have a letter from the Revolutionary War. (Yep thats where they all started the inbreeding)
This means I could technically, belong to a certain group that traces their linage to that time. (My GGGGGGreat faher came over as an indentured servant, not much has really changed if you consider taxes) It means Mike A. isn’t allowed to argue with me. (Nor me either, Ya hear that Mike A. Don’t argue with me either)
And I got me a genuine scholarship to Harvard but didn’t go there. Pretty ironic huh? (Whats the problem, could not get into a better school?, no plans on working after college? U of Texas is not out of the State of Texas, I understand now)
So thanks again. (You are most welcome)
Come back again real soon, ya hear?
Jill
Why would you have a microprocessor on your clavicle, or a Hare across your Donkey, and most certainly, why would you want to cross a bear?
Jill,
Thanks for asking about my grandson. He is doing great and just turned 6 months old. He will be coming with his Mom tomorrow so that is why I had to get the lawn mowed. Plus it is now raining here in Northern Illinois so I got the lawn done just in time.
Former Fed,
Thanks for the kind words. I do mow the lawn myself, however most of it is on a lawn tractor so it isn’t all manual labor. It is nice that you noticed my morning posts and my after work posts. I really enjoy all of the posts on Prof. Turley’s blog. Even the ones that I don’t agree with. Have a great weekend everyone.
Jill writes: I reject the terms in which you place both education and work. I do not reject them in the sense of saying, they do not exist. I am saying there is another and better way of doing things for both adults and children. Alfie Kohn did a lot of research on the way we normally think of and organize school and the workplace. He shows that not only is this not a good way of doing things, it’s counterproductive. I agree with Mike S., about evaluations. I said: “Evaluations of our work are important but have nothing to do with grading. There are many ways of evaluating ourselves and others– letter grades are one of the worst.”
me: okay then so you reject my terms, which btw, are not my terms but the terms that both teacher and student have agreed to for decades of successful public education. YOu might as easily reject public education which is also your right to do, but let me ask you this: how many kids have you sent through the public education system?
has any of it worked for them? for you maybe?
I wasn’t sure that it would work for my kids because I thought it didn’t work for me. the real truth is that I never valued my access to education until way late, when I returned to university to complete an undergrad education that spanned three decades. school has no value if learning is meaningless. the process of learning has to be evaluative for both student and teacher.
my kids have done remarkable things in the public education system of four states, all very different kids, all very different school districts. the common bond among the kids is a basic love of learning and the common bond with the schools is parent involvement, mainly mine. you’ll recall that I wrote those schools and those teachers work for us and once parents and students accept that and take advantage of it the system really can work for them in many remarkable ways.
you keep quoting this book and maybe it has some good ideas, but my experience as a mother with four kids who are making their way through the educational system is more meaningful to me.
you: One problem (and it’s a big one as Mike clearly elucidated) with how we do things is it leads, not to a meritocracy, but a plutocracy.
me: do you work? I mean for money? outside your home? the workplace is a patriarchal oligarchy. here is your desk, your phone, your computer. These are the hours you will work and this is when you get your 15 minute morning and afternoon breaks and your 30 minute lunch break. You get x hours of paid leave per year. You get these health benefits, maybe. you do the work that is assigned to you and you wear what they tell you to wear. it doesn’t really matter what philosophy of education inculcated you. you will work for the owner of the business and do your best to make him/her as wealthy as possible.
You: This is why we keep getting the same type of people in power no matter what color, gender, sexual orientation or ethnicity they may be.
me: this is a wild overgeneralization. don’t you think?
you: It is why the people who have brought the Constitution and our financial system to the brink are precisely the educated elite.
me: there are plenty of well-educated folks who have not participated in the collective ruin of the nation, as you see it and please spend a few minutes with this…. it sounds just a bit hysterical.
you: (Remember that the lawyers on trial for war crimes are considered the best and the brightest.
me: nah. the best and brightest are guys like Lawrence Tribe and Jonathan Turley and Jeffrey Rosen and scores of others who did not choose to become part of Bushco. Yoo is not the best and brightest of any group of attorneys. If he had been he’d have done things differently. maybe his time spent clerking for Clarence Thomas sharpened his taste for a different kind of law.
you: Also, interestingly, even Harvard Business School is reevaluating how they are teaching their students. They came to the conslusion that they were in fact doing something wrong, as so many people responsible for the financil collapse came from their MBA program.) Things must be evaluated on whether they create a good life for oneself, for others and the environment. We are clearly failing in this task. We must change the idea of what it means to learn, work and be sucessful in this society.
All of our well-being depends on it.
me: I guess I should just pull my kid out of law school and her sisters out of their schools and colleges, abandon our house and move to some beach on an island and make hippie handicrafts. if failure is such a certainty as you seem to believe…..
Jill,
Hats off to all the wonderful gentlemen who have already voiced their support of your posts; I share their regard for your many contributions.
I wish you (and all who visit here) peace and equanimity!
Hi GWLSM, Jill & et al,
Just to avoid any confusion I was responding to posts form last evening and not your discussion; I hope you all are having a good weekend!
Jill, I don’t know what Patty C’s issue are with you. She appears to make intelligent responses to the comments of others, but when you have something to say, she tends to explode. Is there some history between the two of you that the rest of us are not privy to? I have always enjoyed your posts and the effort you put into them, even when I disagree.
BTW, I didn’t realize that I’m not permitted to argue with you. I generally don’t only because I don’t want my a** kicked. And I did accept my scholarship to Harvard. My parents would have gone berserk if I hadn’t since I was the first person in my family to go to college.
By all means, keep posting. Maybe there’ll be something we can have a vehement exchange over.
Jill,
I for one am always pleased to hear what you have to say. Please keep going through what appears the fog.
R
Mike A.,
As to history– I started posting here fairly early on. Patty was nice to me or at least, never attacked me for a while. It was later (2 months?) that she suddenly started being hateful towards me. It has been escalating since that time. Before me though, she used to be extremely hateful to Bob Esq. (aka Bob Frog). She called him terrible names for reasons I have never understood. Then she switched to me as her primary target (although she does have run ins with others as well). She hasn’t let up since. I have asked her to stop but to no effect. I have not acted differently since you started posting here than I did before you came to this site. Therefore you have seen my reaction to her and can judge it. I have my own theories as to why she is so hateful but everyone must draw his/her own conclusion. My best tactic is to ignore all Patty posts. In truth, the usual way I have found out about the attacks is because they are mentioned by others in their own posts.
I was making a joke about the DAR. I remembered you once said something like; “far be it from me to argue with someone from the DAR…”. It’s funny you said that about a good a** kick because I know you could do that to me in a heartbeat and I was thinking exactly that thought when I said you couldn’t argue with me now! The DAR is my very own amulet against your kicking my a**.
Congratulations on your scholarship and being the first person in your family to attend college. Harvard was fortunate to have you. Mike, you know many other people here have told you the same thing, but I’ll repeat it– you are one of the smartest people who writes on this blog. You have added so much to it. I don’t have the patience to read through the legal arcana the way you (and Vince, for example) do. Even if I did, I wouldn’t understand it with the depth and intricacy that you exhibit– not even close. Many of us have been mighty grateful to the lawyers here for those explanations. Further, I have always been impressed with your integrity just as FFLEO pointed out the other day. Finally, I consider your sense of humor to be your killer app.!
There are so many other people on this blog about whom I would write the same things, (except/including the legal arcana depending on the person). I hope you all understand how highly I regard most people on this blog (independently of agreement about ideas) . JT has provided a wonderful, imaginative and I believe, actual meritocracy in cyberspace. We are all lucky to have found it and to have found each other.
CEJ, thank you for your kind support. I share the same wish as you do and hope to read more of your ideas here soon! You sell yourself short. I really value your perspective on things.
FFLEO, I agree competely with what you said to rafflaw. Sure he gives some lame excuses for not posting enough, like he loves his family and crap like that–and I believe him!
Thanks again to everyone who offered support. It means a great deal to me.
GWL,
I’ve tried to explain my position and to link to a book that would further elucidate it. I agree precisely with Mike S. on this matter.
You said:
“me: I guess I should just pull my kid out of law school and her sisters out of their schools and colleges, abandon our house and move to some beach on an island and make hippie handicrafts. if failure is such a certainty as you seem to believe…..”
Please know that I do not think you should do this. I do not think your children are failures. I don’t even know them and I have absolutely no reason to believe any such thing. You must know that I do not think people who go to elite schools are bound to end up as failures, There are many people on this blog for whom I have the highest regard. Some of them have said where they went to school, others have not. Some of these schools are the most elite institutions in our nation. It doesn’t matter.
This blog is a good example of what education should and could be. We are just speaking at cross purposes to each other so I am going to end my part of the discussion with you. If you have a book that you’d like me to read, let me know. We can read each other’s recommendations and maybe understand each other better that way.
While I have objections to this whole circumvention of the admissions process let’s not kid ourselves that the situation at U of I is an aberration. The very same practices are carried out at most universities and grad schools. The biggest difference is that private universities do not have legislative committees investigating their admissions practices and revealing the truth.
Horus I believe has it correct that these evasions of fair admission practices are rife throughout the system. As to my previous post there might be some misunderstanding of the points I was making and so let me approach it from another angle.
Early on in Elementary School it was discovered that I could read twice as fast as the normal child. By the 6th grade I had achieved the reading level of a college graduate, I was off the charts. My I.Q. is somewhere over 140. However, I had maturity and socialization problems and was considered, rightly so to be an “underachiever” in the parlance of the times. I was a disciplinary problem in Middle and High Schools and never did homework at home and was absent around 40 days a year.
My father worked late and had quit school in the 9th grade and my mother had severe heart problems and major depression. They were good people, but essentially let me do my own thing. Graduated HS in the bottom quarter of my class, with one of the worst disciplinary records in my school’s history, but 1,400+ SAT’s and a high mark on a NY State Scholarship test got me into College with a full tuition scholarship. In college I calmed down, no more fighting, but the same work/study habits. Graduated with a 1.13 cum (on a 3.0 scale). Three years later after a 680+ on my LSAT’s I was admitted to St. Johns University Law School, based again solely on my standardized test (LSAT) score.
In Law School, despite enjoying it, my work/study habits remained the same and the truth is that Law School wasn’t the
“walk in the park” that college was. To my surprise, I flunked out in 1971, due to my own lack of application and this totally changed me. It taught me the value of working hard, despite my talents and that I couldn’t keep faking it if I wanted to succeed in life. Six years later I won a Full Tuition Scholarhip to an Ivy League Social work School and got my Masters with an A average..
I write this as someone, who having gamed the system for many years and ultimately couldn’t, learned to respect the kids I laughed at in HS that worked hard and got good marks. Their values, at least academically were far better than mine and they took advantage of what was available.Probably, they had involved parents like GWLSM, who ensured that they
take school seriously. Now here’s the rub.
I was luckily born smart, white, blond haired, blue-eyed, tall and handsome (at least my wife thinks so). I was able to succeed and do well despite my own lack of initiative and tendency towards living solely for my pleasure. Had it been a child of color, with equal talents and similar parents, by dint of our society, they would probably go into dealing dope as the most lucrative way out of poverty. This is the inequity of the system and is only heightened by practices at a place like IU, or as horus puts it all over.
Secondly, I was immature when I entered the public school system and was socially probably a year behind my fellow students. Systems like ours, based on grouping children of somewhat similar ages together arbitrarily to form class levels that determine educational content, fail to take into account different levels of growth and maturation. Therefore,
many children are left behind and/or stigmatized for behavior beyond their control. The system may work for a factory, but education should not be a factory.
Thirdly, we have set up a system, given legacy’s etc., that
favors elite schools not so much for their quality as educational institutions, but because of the status of their graduates. The Ivy League School I got my Masters from is very probably the fourth best school of Social Work in its City, yet is one of the most prestigious in the country. The best is part of the City school system. While I have no doubt that Harvard/Yale Medical and Law Schools are first rate, are they really the best in their fields?
Fourth, our system of education’s purpose is to educate people and yet its purposes are viewed more in terms of status arbiters and Corporatism feeders, than it is as places where one can learn to think, reason and gain knowledge about life and the world around them. Part of this I think is purposeful, because an informed citizenry is more difficult to manipulate.
While I have learned to respect the students that apply themselves seriously to their educations, I would submit that a good deal of that is due to family structure and the interests of particular parents. I used my own examples because I wanted to make clear that I have been a beneficiary of our current educational system and seek to change it in the hope that we can do much more to change our society and the world.
Jill writes: Please know that I do not think you should do this. I do not think your children are failures. I don’t even know them and I have absolutely no reason to believe any such thing. You must know that I do not think people who go to elite schools are bound to end up as failures, There are many people on this blog for whom I have the highest regard. Some of them have said where they went to school, others have not. Some of these schools are the most elite institutions in our nation. It doesn’t matter.
This blog is a good example of what education should and could be. We are just speaking at cross purposes to each other so I am going to end my part of the discussion with you. If you have a book that you’d like me to read, let me know. We can read each other’s recommendations and maybe understand each other better that way.
me: that’s right. you don’ t know my kids and you really don’t know me. I think that we could use some time away from “wedge issues” that rest upon some very shaky and highly questionable assumptions about who has been given what advantages and how those advantages are used. maybe we could begin by considering how language affects our abilty to make a point that allows for discussion as opposed to getting all judgmental. “elite” is one of those words. When I hear/read that word, I hear how it is used by people who out of hand hate liberals, feminists, people who take pride in their educations and want their kids to be well-educated.
It is unlikely that i will change my mind about this. I don’t expect you to alter the way you think about it.
but grades, performance assessments, evaluations are crucial to our understanding of who is doing what quality of work whether it is second grade or in professional schools or out there in the workforce.
if those grades make us feel bad or good about ourselves, our performance, it is because we relate to them as someone else’s idea of what we’ve been doing with our time.
oh and one last thing. John Yoo was an accomplished student. it was how he chose to behave professionally after he graduated from Harvard that colors our perceptions of who he became, not that he went to Harvard but the choices he made after graduation.
GWL,
You really do not understand what I am saying. You seem to think I am attacking you and your children. I’m not. I think it’s best for us to drop the topic.
I agree with the GWL mom. Our family has chosen to put a lot of our resouces into our children’s education rather than other material possessions. They have gone to private schools since pre school. I have found the private high schools to be more progressive and superior academically to my local public schools in Texas. It’s not because either they or I are elitist – quite the contrary. I believe in giving a child the best education you can afford. You can do it through magnet schools, good public schools or private schools. The same thing goes for colleges,law schools, med schools, etc. I don’t think a lottery for a professional school is the answer. There are people that simply don’t have the aptitude for medicine or law.
Also our children have to compete with the world now. Many other countries as you know have much higher educational standards.