Shock Video: Man Tasered at Baseball Game in Oakland

We have another taser incident at a sporting event. It is unclear why the man was approached. Some reports suggest that he was in the wrong seat and was not obeying the commands of the officers.

There is again a question of the need for the taser, which creates a scene that is made all the more chaotic with the intervention of a shouting individual and then a fly ball.

One alleged witness left the following account:

I was sitting about 5 rows in front of him and he was actually a Texas fan and he kept yelling obnoxiously. The usher who had been very nice went over and made a joke. And dude flipped out screaming and swearing saying get outta my fing face and calling him the n word. They called security and he was still screaming and swearing. So the police came and while they were trying to put handcuffs on him he kept trying to swing at them. So they tasered him and he fell and hit his head.

While the man is clearly uncooperative and perhaps belligerent, it is unclear why a shot of 50,000 volts was needed.

We previously saw the use of a taser on a woman accused of sitting in the wrong seat at a football game, here.
At last night’s A’s game against Texas, a belligerent fan gets zapped by Oakland police officers (1:05), another fan gets pushed down the stairs (1:25), a woman makes things worse by screaming, and then a foul ball lands (1:42).

179 thoughts on “Shock Video: Man Tasered at Baseball Game in Oakland

  1. I still remember your lecture in first year Torts entitled, “Baseball – All American Sport or Tool of Satan?” You now have more proof of your point

  2. Look at all the empty seats… definitely deserved the taser… They need to make the taser illegal. It is used far too often.

  3. Well Abner Double day who also served as a Union General for the Federalist would probably agree that the man had to go. However, since at LA is in First Place who really cares.

    Really, the use of Tasers is too often reported, well maybe under reported in some cases. But really a baseball game? This is just Bull Shit. Send em to SC a Horse is lonely tonight.

  4. “And dude flipped out screaming and swearing saying get outta my fing face and calling him [the usher] the n word.”

    ****************

    While this use of the taser may have been unwarranted, I am impressed with the other problem suggested by the witness. Namely, the belligerent, unruly fan hell-bent on causing a scene or embarrassing those in close proximity with vulgar remarks, and uncalled-for anger. This is an too common problem which caused me sometime ago to refrain from taking my family to sporting events. I have been cursed at, spit at, and swung at by drunk Cretins masquerading as sports fans. In essence, these miscreants take the occasion to get drunk, get wild, and get ornery simply because they purchased a ticket. I note with interest the dearth of other patrons in his immediate vicinity BEFORE the police arrived. One wonders why?

  5. Prof.,

    If I may make a request on behalf of the baseball fans lurking here, would you consider publishing (if readily available) your lecture “Baseball – All American Sport or Tool of Satan?”

    Thank you.

  6. This may be the first Taser story listed, of what has turned into dozens, where I think its’ use may (I say that tentatively)have been justified. In a stadium the rows are close and a large, drunken out of control fan may well be difficult to handle manually, while presenting a problem of danger to those around him.

    Regarding baseball itself I’ve been a lifelong fan and yet I haven’t gone to a Major League game in perhaps 15 years. The crowds are annoying and even 15 years ago the prices were exorbitant. I did attend a spring training game this year and for a ticket, soda, hamburger/fries the cost came to over $30 and that was for a game where most of each teams regulars weren’t even playing. In NYC, with each team’s new ballpark, buillt with government subsidy, the prices are outrageous and beyond the reach of average fans and families. All to see one game out of a 162 game season. Front row seats, field level at Yankee Stadium for instance cost $2,600 a game.

    This has become true in general for all sports and has created a divide where corporations buy up the best seats as giveaways to clients and the rest of the fans(short for fanatics)still pay exorbitantly. At least the Roman Colosseum
    had free bread and circuses. In corporate America we get our people to pay for the privilege of being distracted from the overall societal corruptness.

    It is a distressing fact though that as life becomes increasingly isolated by the use of the computer, another remaining vestige of people getting together has become so obnoxious and burdensome. On the other hand though, given that at the old Colosseum the people rooted for Gladiators murdering each other, or people being torn apart by wild beasts, maybe the end of crowds socializing wouldn’t be so bad. After all today its’ the mayhem of football, or Rugby in England, tomorrow it might be gun slinging shootouts and fights to the death, to keep the people drunk and distracted.

  7. I live about 45 minutes from Oakland and I think that Oakland fans are the worst. I went to a Raider game last year and there were a half dozen fights before my father and I left in the 3rd quarter. Ive also been to many A’s games and they are not much better.

    Its funny though that right across the bay at AT&t park, this kind of stuff almost never happens.

  8. Police should be instructed that tasers may be used only when, prior to the availability of tasers, use of a gun was permitted. I thought that the use of tasers was supposed to substitute for the use of guns so that people are not killed unnecessarily. They were not intended for situations that are not life-threatening. If a cop uses a taser when there is clearly no threat, he should be prosecuted for assault and battery.

  9. As usual, the most obvious question is: Why do THREE cops need a taser to cuff ONE guy. Where I come from police would be embarrassed to need weapons to accomplish this. Are they training these guys in Oakland to be policemen or ballerinas?

  10. Whats the big deal A taser is NON lethal and less painfull than a night stick. People need to get it through their heads to OBEY lawfull police orders and COMPLY. Fight the charge in COURT not there at the scene. In this day and age you dont run through a airport yelling you have a bomb and you OBEY police when they tell you to comply

  11. Frank,

    Yeah, I mean what do people think they are? Innocent until proven guilty or some feel good hippy crap like that?

  12. Henry you have you rumors all wrong TASER was never meant to replace firearms. It it use to subdue idiots who refuse to be placed into handcuffs and who wish to resist arrest.. A baton strike would have broken bones and pepper spray would have pissed off all the fans sitting next to this A-HOLE…The TASER is considered equal to Pepper spray and was the correct tool to use in this case…. Ck out Beaver VS Federal Way Police.. This case spelled it out.

  13. Really? Misuse of the taser? You have to be kidding me. It says in a witness quote that the man was swinging at officers. Umm, seems like a good time to use the taser to me. You could use the OC Spray, but you run the risk of hitting an innocent bystander, so that’s ruled out. There are a couple officers, so you could wrestle him and run the chance of injuring an officer or a bystander and bring even more attention to the scene, once again, wrong answer.

    This was dealt with professionaly and I applaud the officers in this one. The public just doesn’t get it sometimes. The Taser is a useful tool that saves lives and prevents unnecessary injuries to officers, suspects, and innocent bystanders.

    If the Public has an issue with the Taser, I would gladly hand them my badge and duty belt and sit back and watch them deal with these situations on their own. Police Officers can not do anything right in the Public’s eye. Thanks to the media, we live under a magnifying glass.

  14. How simple is it to just obey an usher when you get snagged sitting in the wrong seat??? Or even better why argue with cops??? Do you think you are going to win??? Just get your big ass up and move. He deserved to get tasered in the face if you ask me.

  15. it would have been better if other fans just went up to him and kicked the crap out of him for being annoying. there was no need to taser him in any way – just put the hand cuffs on him and drag him out and into jail. tasers in the hands of jackasses is not a license to use them

  16. So have any of you actually ever been to a sporting game? Having gone to 40 or 50 in my life in, there is not much room to navigate between the seats. A person who is belligerent and refusing to come quietly poses a danger not only to himself but to everyone else around him, being as superior numbers are useless being as there are too many obstructions to coherently surround someone. So if you wish to have caused probable (not possible, but probable; it is remarkably easy to injure someone in a place that is largely concrete and filled with sharp angles if you are swinging around trying to avoid the law) bodily harm not only to the police officers but also to the fans around him, by all means, deny the use of a taser to incapacitate only the person who is causing the problem.

    And as far as the state of sporting games go, you folks just suffer from living in the wrong places. Here in MN seats 3 rows behind home plate cost just $50, and if you come on the right days you can have tickets, hot dog and a drink for $10. The games that I have gone to range from pro hockey to pro football to college football to pro basketball in MN, WI, and IL, and I have NEVER come across an exceptionally unruly person. So please don’t blame the bizarre prices and bad behavior of your respective states on the game, as it does little but show your prejudice.

  17. in that film they could have placed hand cuffs on him at any time they wanted too but as usual the taser is fun for the cops to use. all cops who have tasers should be required to be tasered before they use them

  18. If we tasered more often maybe we would have less problems.
    I bet no one who witnessed the scene caused trouble after that.

  19. I guess they could have slammed him on the ground pinned his head to the concrete and then cuffed him, that’s much more humane. The bottom line is obey the law, and you won’t be tased. That is half of the problem today too many people worry about the person breaking the law not the officer upholding the law. I am not an officer and never have been but I have the upmost respect for them. Diffuse the situation without any innocent bystander being injured, works for me. Some of you people need to realize this man is an adult and made his own decision. Actions without consequences will lead to worse actions.

  20. Dan- most cops have been tasered to see what its like, as well as OC’d, should we shoot them too?

  21. Why was 50,00 volts necessary? Maybe because the guy was being an ignorant jerk. Why do we always feel bad for these a-holes? The guy absolutely deserved what he got. I am a big fan of the taser…..but then again, I never act like this guy.

  22. Enough already!!! The fan/guy was and is a total jerk. Even being from Texas does not give one a free jerk pass. If you don’t think the guy was a jerk then you too may be a closet jerk. You just don’t know it yet.

  23. solve this one the way any mother would: either everyone gets a taser or no one gets a taser.

    btw, my squeeze once refused to take me to a Giants game until I changed clothes. I was wearing my Dodger T-shirt, from the 1977 world series. Since the Giants where playing the Dodgers that afternoon I thought that it was an appropriate choice. He didn’t want to have to fight someone over my choice of team clothing, so he refused to leave the house until I changed. if we’d had a taser I could have worn my Dodger T-shirt and everyone would have been happy.

  24. I do have to say this is a perfectly understandable and appropriate use of a stun gun, especially after Wonderboy started swinging. His being from Texas is irrelevant other than it should merit him getting an extra zap for “good measure”/”Bush tax”/”Anti-swagger Insurance”/”Insert Your Anti-Texan Motive Here”.

  25. I agree with mesmo727272. You put in eloquent dialogue what I so completely believe. Sporting events are just a big excuse for rude, beligerant people to masquerade as sports fans and get drunk and offensive. Sporting events used to be a place where fans gathered together to show their support for some of the finest examples of athletic sportsmenship and outstanding citizenship. Now I would consider it dangerous to take your family to a ballgame. Tazzering a brut like that whose intent was to be offensive and get away with it was a ssmall punishment in my opinion. Shame on him for trying to press the policeresponsible for hurting him. He brought it on himself and this is a good example of how we don’t like to take responsibility for our actions. I work with a man that was there when that happened and the dude deserved it.

  26. This is not an easy taser case from a policy standpoint. I don’t know whether the guy was inebriated, but in my experience overindulgence is the prime cause of incidents at sporting events. In a crowded setting, I can understand how a police officer might determine that using a taser could substantially reduce the risk of injury to the surrounding patrons if a fan is actively resisting arrest. Therefore, I am hesitant to condemn the actions of the officers in this instance, even if there were three of them. It’s difficult enough trying to navigate the steps of a stadium without having to simultaneously subdue someone who’s clearly out of control. I believe that the reason there are so many differing views on this is that we have seen way too many situations in which police have resorted to tasers simply because it’s quicker and easier.

  27. “If the Public has an issue with the Taser, I would gladly hand them my badge and duty belt and sit back and watch them deal with these situations on their own. Police Officers can not do anything right in the Public’s eye. Thanks to the media, we live under a magnifying glass.”

    Chris,
    You might have noticed that I said it was highly possible that the taser was appropriately used here. However, this site has shown literally dozens of incidents where the police probably used them inappropriately. More interesting to me is that by your statement I would assume you are a police officer. You basically say that if critics of certain police actions protest them, let them see if they could do better.

    Chris, first of all nobody made you become a police officer. I would assume you made it as a career choice of a profession you respected and wanted to be a part of, therefore having chosen this profession voluntarily and with it being a public servant, then you really shouldn’t have a complaint, criticism goes with the territory of any job anyone holds.

    The next part of your statement makes police officers out to somehow be victims and I know that is a widespread feeling among police around the country. However, I don’t think that this feeling of victimization felt by police is real. Half or more of the dramas on TV are police shows, very favorably portraying police officers. There is a whole network that show reality police shows, like “Cops” that also portrays police in a very positive light. Almost all politicians on the right and the left make statements praising police. In general police get extremely favorable publicity in this country and yet many of you feel like your victims. I have a theory about this that I’ll get to, but first I need to make one more point.

    You are absolutely correct that when police screw up there is negative publicity. Don’t you think though that given that we the people are supposed to be the ultimate “bosses” of government, that we have the right to know when a part of our government screws up. wouldn’t you want to know that about a politician, or some bureaucrat taking a bribe? I assume that you are a good officer, who believes in the law and in the good you’re doing in your job. Wouldn’t you want those officers, who are not like you, to be exposed and punished when they do their job badly?

    I was a civil servant for 32 years. I worked for years with police and prosecutors in child abuse cases and I was as hardass as they were about prosecuting those guilty of abusing kids. In later years my job involved rooting out internal corruption and dealing with civil servants who broke the rules and/or the law. I found in my experience that about 10% of the civil servants I dealt with, were not doing their jobs properly and from what I know from friends in other lines of work that is about average. Drawing from that 90% of the police are good officers, protecting the public and working to help find the criminals to be punished by our justice system. My bet thopugh is that like everywhere else there is that pesky 10% who don’t really “get” what they’re job is about. Wouldn’t you want them removed, because if someday you need them you will not be able to count on them?

    Finally, let me give you my take on why so many police officers feel victimized and my answer is because you are.
    Possibly you are surprised by that but here’s my thinking.

    1. Local politicians always run for office praising the police
    but once in office do little to support them by raising salaries, providing proper equipment, the best cars, decent office space, hours that you can maintain family life with and ongoing respect.

    2. Time and leave rules for police generally stink and don’t fully take into account the stresses of the job.

    3. Too many police departments are run by internal politics and friendships, that frustrate the really good officers
    trying to get ahead.

    4. Police are not dumb and they soon get the message that the most important factor in their jobs is to control the minority communities and give good service to the wealthier parts of town. That can make a man or a woman officer very cynical.

    5. Too many times your work performance and career advancement is judged by the amount of tickets you write, or the amount of arrests you make, rather than the overall quality of your work.

    6. Police being intelligent, understand how many of the people who control their work lives through politics make money on the side through what amounts to bribery and that makes them cynical too.

    7. Most police training teaches you to view the public with distrust and see every incident as possibly life threatening.

    8. Your saddled with enforcing drug laws that are set up to convict the “little guy” and/or addict and leave the people making the big bucks alone and that adds to your cynicism.

    Chris I could go on with this but I think you get the drift. I
    can really understand why police feel victimized, but I would suggest to you that it’s not about the public, which basically trusts and believes in you, or about the media reporting when police screw up. Its’ about your supposed “political friends,” who use you to get votes and forget about you once elected.

  28. This is the first story that I’ve read on here where I actually agree with the use of the tazer. This drunk redneck idiot apparently asked for it, and he got it. All he had to do was obey the usher or the police; the police appear to be very patient and respectful to the man until he starts getting beligerent. Kudos to the officers.

  29. Well that dude looked heavy. Why did he tazehim, thats more dead weight. Heres the problem those guys were to out of shape to deal with that guy. They were probly fired as cops for sleeping or general laziness. You see there are alot of “former police and military” in security. Most are not physically adapt to do it. Anyone else see that?

  30. Here is a solution. When approached by uniformed officers of the law do what they ask immediately and be respectful. That way you won’t get hazed or tazed. Works for me but then I’m not usually a drunken idiot… or a racest professor with a chip on my sholder.

  31. Okay, you clowns, it’s obvious the ignorance about the Taser, what it does, what it’s for, and when it’s justified is right up at near mental midget levels…….do the key words “They called security and he was still screaming and swearing. So the police came and while they were trying to put handcuffs on him he kept trying to SWING at them.” He was trying to ASSAULT the officers involved. Now I know you tools haven’t ever had to do anything like try to subdue a man who’s ACTIVELY trying to assault you in your lives, and your knowledge of police work comes from ‘Law and Order:SUV’……but COME THE HELL ON!

  32. girley:

    “I agree with mespo727272.”

    ***********

    The foregoing is a mantra for the ages–now if only my wife would go along.

    Seriously, I have no doubt those in attendance have something useful to contribute to this story, and if your co-worker is an upstanding kind of guy, I would put great weight in what he observed and concluded. After all, and as we credit trial court judges and petit juries to do, he was in the position to judge the character and demeanor of the accused.

  33. Be respectful and you’ll be ok. That is how it works. Respectful to others and especially people who are there to keep Order. Disrespect is disorder. But the “security” looked way out of shape for the job!

  34. I have had a lot of run ins with the police and have spent a lot of time in jail. I have always done what the police have ordered me to do. When they told me it was time to leave, I have left. When they told me to turn around and put my hands behind my back, I did. When they told me I was under arrest, I cooperated. When they said give me your hands, I gave them my hands. Bottom line is I have never been harmed by any police officer. Even the A-Hole cops. I have never been punched, kicked, pepper sprayed, hit with a billy clud, tased, or even shot. I did like I was told and never had a problem other than getting talked to like I was a piece of garbage from a young cop. To all of you that think the police did something wrong, I hope you need to call 9-1-1 in the near future because someone did something wrong to you.

  35. I agree that we should obey the police. If it is okay to tase the fan, then it is okay to tase the harvard professor.

    The thing that bothers me most is the double standard. The poor slub does not have a chance in court or against the system. Dont Pay your taxes and see what happens unless you are Geithner. Verbally abuse the police and see what happens unless you are Prof. Gates. Lie to congress goe to jail unless you are Clinton. Watch the government takeover of health care. If you have money no problem, the poor or old will just wither and die.

    Maybe tasers are not the right way to handle someone. But the dual application of the law is cleaarly the most anti american policy we face today.

  36. I watched that video a couple of times. At NO point did I see him take a swing at a cop….I saw him try to avoid having his hands taken. If you’ve been a fan of the opposite team and been at an Oakland game, you would understand needing to be on the defense (I’ve been there) Oakland fans had probably been giving him a hard time the entire time so he probably got mouthy. When A’s fans didn’t approve they probably when and told on him. Figures! Those “cops” (I use the word loosely) should NOT have tasered him at any point. With as many empty seats as they had, they should have welcomed ANYONE willing to be there…maybe he would have bought more alcohol since that’s where the sales are. That place is crap and I can’t STAND Oakland….I’ll stick with my San Francisco teams!

  37. In Oakland if you pull away from a cop like this guy did, something bad is about to happen. Rich or not. That is personal experience. Plus we don’t know, this guy could be very well off.

  38. well i didn’t see him swing at anyone and when he got tasered he was in the process of being handcuffed already. yes he might have been drunk or an ass, even nocomplient to an extent but if you watch closely he got tasered as he was being handcuffed. he didn’t fight, swing or try to harm anyone. no need for the taser at all.

  39. Obey the police = don’t get tased like an idiot all over the news. Pulling away from a cop is a bad idea. Again, I have been arrested more than any other guy I know and I have never been tased. I have been called the “N” word, but never physically forced to do anything.

  40. I have been cursed at, spit at, and swung at by drunk Cretins masquerading as sports fans.

    Imagine you,and your ‘lil’ dahlings’, causing a stir…

    I’ll bet those were memorable fun rides home!

  41. So to recap: I need to obey the cops, otherwise the officer will physically harm me.

    When did I miss the transition from “citizens are free men” to “citizens are slaves to the state?”

  42. Citizen,

    Personally, I’d think we’d be better off getting rid of false dichotomies and having an intelligent discussion. That’s just me though.

  43. But seriously, I am not saying what the officers did was right at all, but I know I would have gone along with the program if I was him and taken my ride to jail. I’m not sure, but this guy looks drunk and he would be out in no time. It would be a lot easier for me to go along with the program rather than being put on the news acting like that and nothing about the police ever changing because I got tased. I am sure he got a resist charge on top of it now too.

  44. “While the man is clearly uncooperative and perhaps belligerent, it is unclear why a shot of 50,000 volts was needed.”

    Seriously? An uncooperative individual behaving belligerently and you have to ask why a shot of 50k volts is needed? I honestly hope you don’t get paid for your blogtastic endeavors.

  45. Good thing he wasn’t black, just goes to show if you want to live in Oakland you gotta be down with it.

  46. Oakland is a shit hole. Its amazing how you can visit a city like San Francisco which, other than than the overcrowding, is an otherwise great city. But as soon as you cross over the bridge it turns into hell.

  47. Umpire 13 1, August 6, 2009 at 3:27 pm
    “I agree that we should obey the police. If it is okay to tase the fan, then it is okay to tase the harvard professor.”

    Republicans sure do love their jack-booted authoritarianism.

  48. i hope this man sues the hell out of the police department,and win in court.there was no reason for the police to do this to the man..

  49. Patty C:

    “Imagine you,and your ‘lil’ dahlings’, causing a stir…”

    ****************************

    Well, once was in Philadelphia at an Eagles game, and the second– and more thrilling — episode was at a Cleveland-Pittsburgh game when I got the lucky seat behind the Cleveland “Doggies.” I even saw a Bears-Packers game sitting between two drunk rival fans, but they were affable enough. It must have been the ETOH sedative.

  50. roger:

    :i hope this man sues the hell out of the police department,and win in court.there was no reason for the police to do this to the man.”

    ***********************

    Is it ok that if the next time a big, obnoxious, overbearing fan bothers me and drives out most of the patrons in our section, I call upon you to handle this daintily and with the legal deftness of a Supreme Court justice?

  51. another pig using to much force!!!! The taser is supposed to be used instead of a gun. So he should have been shot is what your all saying? Is this america?

  52. Respect is earned, not due just because someone wear a uniform. I have a perfect example of when no respect was earned for an officer. And it was all his doing.

    I just had recently had opportunity to interact with the local PD over an allegedly run red light. All was fine until toward the end of writing the ticket. I signed and told him I’d see him in court. Not hostile. Just informative discourse. This is of course where things go wrong.

    Then Officer Jackboot took it upon himself to threaten me with extra charges because he didn’t like where I pulled over. I informed him I pulled over at the first safe available spot and he repeated the threat. I told him that whether or not I was exercising proper discretion in pulling over was a matter I’d be glad to discuss with a judge, but that if he was done writing the ticket and trying to intimidate me, me and my groceries were going home. He then started lecturing again so I started pulling away at which point he screamed at me, “I’m not done with you! I’m not done educating you.” I then informed him that education was not his job and that unless had had other official business, I was leaving. I never raised my voice or threatened him in any way other than say I would be at court. I complied with all his requests and was pleasant at all times, even once threatened.

    Yet at the first sign I wasn’t just going to cough up the cash and “respect his auTHOR-it-tie”, the officer’s response was to threaten me with additional charges I knew he had zero chance of making. I’m probably not the best guy to try that on unless you want a desk job for the next year. Yeah, harassment like that merits respect. In bizarro world. Had he done more than scream and bluster, he’d be facing a disciplinary hearing. As it is, he was left sputtering mad on the side of the road because he didn’t get to prove to me how big his balls are and how I should be thankful to be threatened by an officer with bullshit charges after stating I intended to exercise my constitutional rights.

    All of this because a citizen dared suggest they were going to challenge his ticket. Apparently he thinks it’s crime to challenge the police. Hmmmm. Not yet it’s not, despite fascist attempts to make things otherwise.

    Respect? No. That’s a zero score for Officer Jackboot.

    Yeah, there are a lot of good cops out there doing the job. I know a couple of detectives that are the very definition of honest and hard working – as good a men as I know in any line of work. There are also way too many goobers like that one carrying a badge too. That’s the problem.

    You boys in blue want the public to respect you more?

    Quit protecting your own when they do wrong would be a good place to start. And not tolerating abusive or threatening behavior of ANY sort from your fellow officers. That “blue brotherhood”? Yeah, well, ponder that and while pondering why people distrust the police in much the same way they would distrust any armed gang.

    They distrust the police because it’s prudent.

    The clowns and criminals in your ranks that you in law enforcement tolerate and often protect makes prudence not just so, but required to protect liberty like oxygen is required to breathe.

    If you want to complain about lack of trust from the public, do a better job of earning it. That’s an everyday, 24/7 job. You in law enforcement are the only one’s who can do anything about it. It’s that simple.

  53. Spectator sports and unruly spectators: that about sums up what is happening too often nowadays. While I believe that use of tasers definitely has its place in law enforcement situations, sometimes, however, its use is unnecessary and perhaps constitute excessive restraint. In this case, the idiot deserved it (especially being a Texas fan).

    Boorish people need to learn the consequences of their actions even though they are paying spectators at such events.

  54. Well i already said that I think this is one case where the use of the taser might be appropriate. I also answered Chris, who seemed to insinuate that he was a police officer, but since he ignored me I guess that was just pretend. Let me state though what is the most disturbing about this thread.

    I have never seen the word obey used more times by American citizens than in this exchange of posts. Obey has very heavy connotations. One obeys their rulers, their masters, their betters and their wives/husbands. It is a relinquishing of self for authority. Our founding fathers refused to obey King George and thus America was created. They wrote a constitution, with a bill of rights to clearly define who and how people were to be obeyed. Now though there are a group of posters who are ready to obey, just as dogs do. Roll over, play dead, don’t bark, sit. Some posters think that that is just fine. Police are public servants, yes the prudent person will listen to their directions, because you’d be stupid not to listen to an armed person.

    However, that so many of you would be so quick to obey authority sounds to me more typical of a citizen of a totalitarian country than true Americans. The police are public servants, but many of you would have them as your masters and seem like the pet dog, more than willing to obey them.

  55. “Boorish people need to learn the consequences of their actions . . . ”

    I agree. let’s taser the teabaggers. Who’s with me on this?

  56. Anyone notice that the guy was holding up his tickets the entire time to show the officers he was sitting in the correct seats. How did the officer respond to such a display?? He slaps them out of his hand. What a courageous officer to taze the guy from behind as the other officer was trying to cuff him.

  57. Girley writes: Sporting events used to be a place where fans gathered together to show their support for some of the finest examples of athletic sportsmenship and outstanding citizenship

    you mean like in 1965 when Johnny Roseboro got his brains bashed by Juan Marichal? or in 1979 when Rudy Tomjonovich got his face re-arranged by Kermit Washington?
    you mean that kind of good sportsmanship?

  58. If you listen to the audio, the man repeatedly challenges the officers telling them to get away, get away. One officer tries to calm the situation by gentling placing a hand on his shoulder and leaning down to quietly tell him to get up, or the like. Nobody has the right to interfere or obstruct, or resist an order by the police. The thing to do is respectfully voice your issue, and comply. The issue can later be taken up through the proper channels.
    Further, the taser, while 50k volts, ends its effects immediately upon ending its “cycle”. The reported deaths have all been linked to people with previous medical conditions, or drug related issues that are brought on through stress. The Taser has not, itself, caused any deaths.
    In closing, if you cooperate with the police you arent getting hurt. How foolish can you be to decide to dig in your heels, when there are proper channels for conflict resolution.

  59. The officer Tased the man in the back, the largest available area and muscle group, to achieve the desired effect. IF he shot from the front, he could have been hit in the face or throat. Good police tactics all around.

  60. While the abuse of the Taser is definitely a hot topic in law enforcement today I feel that this man sowed his own seeds. Whatever the reason being, security was called and he was asked to comply. These officers/security guards were very patient with him considering he was drawing attention away and being a nuisance for an entire section of fans I believe their actions were justified. They clearly tried several attempts to verbally ask him to leave and this had no effect. They progressed towards more physical means like escorting and attempting arrest, but this still was not working. So, they applied a taser. The fan was well aware that if he did not comply this would probably be the end outcome as evident by the cops displaying their tasers to him. While law enforcement might go on power trips as a citizen the best way to combat this is to show respect and do what is asked.
    I do not know anything about the gentleman in this video, but officers/security guards tend to have to deal with individuals when they are at their highest escalation point. Whatever occurred prior to the officers/security guards showing up is what you would really want to look at. Questions like was this man provoked, was he made aware of his actions and their affect the fans around him. I don’t know, but I bet there was some back and fourth going on between this Texas fan and the Oakland fans and like most situations it escalated and the majority won over the minority and this fan was removed. Lets not point the fingers, because few situations are black and white.

  61. From several of the “educated” people on this blog, it is obvious you have never tried to “handle” a person who is unruly. Further, the man in question was quite large, why let the fight escalate to where someone might be harmed. The taser took the “fight” out of the man. Plus if someone does not want to be handcuffed, it is very hard to get cuffs on quickly and safely. If you dont believe me try to grab someones wrist and tell them to keep it away from being grabbed…..

  62. hey henry !!! what would you want the cops to do– a rodney king instead? come on, this is a tool for law enforcement, it is better then knocking the hell out of the guy–(he may have had that coming too, but) if the cops had taken a night stick to em would that be more to your liking? There are some folks out there that they do not understand the word “no” so what to do? how about you take the test go threw the schooling and last awhile on the streets, lets see how you do it better bud! you all know the job better then the ones that do it. so how come your not in uniform or doing the job? looks like they gave the guy enough chances to leave, but noooooo! he wanted to make an incident, so he had it his way, good for him.

  63. Mike S., you make an excellent point about the cult of obedience. Respect for authority and Pavlovian submission are not the same thing. The soldiers at Abu Ghraib, after all, were merely being deferential to the demands of their superiors.

  64. No threat? The witness statement said that as the officers were trying to handcuff the guy, he took a swing at him. So if the guy tries to hit another fan, that is a threat, but if he tries to hit a cop, it isn’t a threat? C’MON!

  65. Are police drafted? Or do they apply???

    Don’t they get training in physically restraining other people, especially when they have them outnumbered? I once worked in a psychiatric facility and we were trained to take down ANYONE when there were 2 of us and only one of them (not to mention years of military, sports, and hand-to-hand training).

    They are either cowards who don’t need to have that much authority, or they are arrogant jack booted thugs. If they think they shouldn’t risk injury to themselves, then let them get a real job like the rest of us. I’ve never heard of anyone being forced to be a policeman.

  66. realist, your comment that the “Taser has not, itself, caused any deaths” is misleading and wrong. It’s like saying the fall from the airplane did not kill him; it was the lack of a parachute. If someone is wearing a pacemaker and you disable it when you hit him with a baseball bat, causing his death, you are as much responsible for that result from a civil standpoint as you would be had you simply shot him to death. Far too many people argue that the victim must meet their standards. (How was I to know that he was deaf? All I know is that he kept running after I told him to halt.)

  67. It’s a good thing that things like this never happened before the advent of tasers. I just don’t know what the police would have done.

  68. All of you that feel this was an unjustified use of the taser are obviously ignorant of the use and or deployment of the device! What should the officers have done? Fought with him? Every confrontation that a police officer is involved in,so is his/her firearm! You do not have the right to physically resist a police officer in the lawful performance of his or her duty. CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN IS HERE SO SUCK IT UP!

  69. “From several of the “educated” people on this blog, it is obvious you have never tried to “handle” a person who is unruly. Further, the man in question was quite large, why let the fight escalate to where someone might be harmed.”

    bp,
    As one of the educated people on this site let me tell you that you know nothing about me. The year is 2002 and at age 58 I’m running a “clean” housing program for drug addictive people with severe psychiatric problems. One of my patients, who I had personally had hospitalized the day before, broke out of restraints and out of a Psychiatric Clinic 9 miles from one of the houses I was running.

    He was 6 foot 6 and weighed a well muscled 270. I’m 6 foot 195 and have a severe heart condition. It was a hot summer day and I was about to run a 12 Step Meeting for the other patients in this particular house. We were all outside and he comes up the block still in a hospital gown, sweating and looking as psychotic as he was the day before. He walks up to me menacingly and I tell him to shut up and get in my car, he needs to go back to the hospital. He gets into the front seat and I drive him back to the with him setting next to me in the programs tiny Nissan, psychotic as ever. Brought him to the hospital, took him to his ward, the door of which he had broken down and they were now repairing and dropped him off, with the staff amazed I had brought him back myself.

    Had police been involved with this huge, sweaty black man, dressed only in a hospital gown, he might have been tasered, or he might have been shot. I’ve got a bunch of other tales, but this should give you the point. I also was invited three times to lecture police officers on dealing with the mentally ill. They thanked me each time. Don’t be so sure that you can determine who a person is, by his opinions or his writing.

  70. No one disputes that there are circumstances under which use of a taser is necessary. They were invented, after all, to provide an alternative to deadly force. However, it will be awhile before we reach a consensus on the policy issues surrounding their use, which is as it should be. So, for those of you who profess to have some special knowledge on the use and abuse of tasers, do you believe they may be appropriately employed to facilitate the removal of persons who intentionally disrupt town hall meetings (or city council meetings, for that matter) and threaten the speakers or other attendees?

  71. So I take it no one actually knows anything about police work. Has anyone tried to arrest someone resisting in a bleacher?

    The minute the guy pulled away he was resisting. The police have essentially placed him under arrest. Now they have to subdue him. would you rather see him dragged over the seats into an area they can put him to the ground and control him?

    I have been tazed. Not as bad as mace and has no lasting effects.

    NO coppers hurt in this and the guy is not hurt. compliance gained with no injuries.

    I have been in bleachers with guys and came away with injured coppers and suspects.

    Should the coppers just have walked away when the guy refused to comply? Then what would you be saying?

    This was a legal use of force and well executed.

    The man is not hurt he is playing to the crowd.

    When an arrest is made the only recourse you have is through the court. You resist and your resistance is over come.

    Hell the courts have moved the tazer below placing hands on people in the ladder of force because it is so safe.

  72. You wonder why this country is in the state it’s in. There has to be some accountability with those tasers. Those cops are criminals and should be procecuted.

  73. Mike spinell – Great job getting a patient with whom you were familiar with to cooperate with you, as opposed to a stranger who may have a fear of police anyway. And yes police need training in dealing with and identifying people with mental illness. However, people with Mental illness are just as likely to cause injury to an officer as those who are of sound mind.

  74. Ay,
    You caught me it was 2002, so I actually weighed about 210. I became disabled and retired three years after.

    bp,
    It is obvious you don’t know the danger of someone in what’s known as a “psychotic break (episode)” google it and let me know how easy it is then. As I said that was one of many through the years. Remember though, I was just answering your assertion. By the way, yes I am well-educated, but my Father dropped out of school in the 9th grade and my brother only finished high school. I’m a working class kind of guy, whose growing up was a working class experience, so don’t pull this elitist crap with me.

  75. Mike S.,

    My parents were in the medical profession in Houston. The Towers Hotel was being converted to a Hospital. The 5th Floor was the Psychiatric Unit. I witnesses on a visit to see my parents a man hanging out the window that he had busted out by his own strength. It was so thick that when it hit the law it did not break one little piece off. He had knocked the window out of the concrete steel rebarb reinforced frame. Apparently they have super human strength.

  76. MIKE S – You are the prime example os someone educated with no sense. Your views regarding officers as “servants” are as antiquated as the view that mentally ill should be hiden away from the public. Your earlier comments regarding obey, can just as easily be transferred to the term servant. Reality is that they are often criticized and rarely recognized. Im glad you were able to “rise above” with a father. Mine was killed in the line of duty when I was 6, “serving” the public. The man in the video was beligerent and did not do as he was asked, repeatedly. He was of sound enough mind to display his ticket, and to call out to the public to gain sympathy and attention. Heres an idea, “dont fight with police, obey the rules, dont resist arrest”. We will call those “hints” of proper behavior.

  77. are any of you expert “Naysayer’s” police officers? No? Then shut up because you have no room to comment on how police do their jobs.

  78. I bet Jackko is a quivering baby when contacted by the police. Just another internet tough guy too scared to talk trash in real life. You are a COWARD just like your COWARD president Obama!

  79. Matt writes: are any of you expert “Naysayer’s” police officers? No? Then shut up because you have no room to comment on how police do their jobs.

    with all due respect…. wait a sec… shove the respect… everyone has room and right to comment on anything they choose to comment on including how police do their jobs.
    last time I checked, police worked for the public, not the other way around.
    don’t like it?
    too bad.
    I’m not shutting up. not today. not tomorrow.

  80. Wow! I almost fell asleep reading all of those postings. I guess I will add to that volume. I have to agree with Gyges that I did not see a punch thrown. All I saw was that he was resisting their attempts to handcuff him. I have not had to restrain a large man in a small area and I have not been a cop. Of course, I have witnessed abuse by police as far back as 1969. I have been maced and hit with a billy club and a riot stick and I was not beligerant or drunk. I was not disobeying a police officer’s order, but that didn’t stop them from macing and hitting me. Now, do we have to “obey” an illegal order from a police officer who is acting beyond his authority? I also have experienced an unruly person in my office some years ago and I called the police to remove him from the office. The police in their wisdom wanted to take both of us out of my office to discuss the situation and I respectfully informed the officer that I have a legal right to the use of the office and the best way for him to solve the problem was to remove this individual who was not authorized to be in my office. After some discussion the officer finally agreed to take only the offender out in the parking lot. I disobeyed the officer’s original order and yet I didn’t get hit with a stick or maced. The police should use the tazer when their is no other reasonable way to deal with the individual. I did not see these officers at risk when the tazer was used at least twice. Being a jerk does not authorize the Police to use potentially deadly force.

  81. GLSM,

    I sure am glad there are people like Matt on the internet to tell me how wrong my views are without offering any supporting evidence. I can tell by the way he types that he is the epitome of masculinity.

    Or he could be some schmuck that thinks we’re stupid enough to not realize that it’s the same person changing his log in name to make it look like he’s not just some lone but hunched over his computer with a bottle of gator-aid and plate of half eaten spaghetti, living out his fantasies of strength and virility through an online persona.

    Or he could be a payed shill, although who would have that low of standards and what they’d hope to gain by trolling this website is beyond me.

  82. Cop or not – it takes a COWARD to shoot an unarmed man with a weapon that discharges electrons at 50,000 volts into the human body. They always go for the TASER first because they have jumpy trigger fingers and are just itching to use that manly weapon on an unarmed person (c.f. the 70 year old little old ladies who the big bad police officer TASERs simply because they don’t obey his commands fast enough). COWARDS.

  83. this is getting to the point in our country that the police feel they are free to mame or even kill us at will. with everything that is going in dc the prez taking over companys . we will all be sent behind a iorn currtin. its time for a revalotion

  84. Also, it should be noted that it’s perfectly legal for a citizen to own a cary a TASER, as well. Everyone should have one. Police would gain new respect for the TASER then.

  85. Here’s why the author of this article is a fool. 50,000V is “open circuit” meaning sparked without a cartridge. The fat man only recieved 1,200V significantly less than carpet static and several thousand Amperes (the part that actually hurts)less than a christmas tree bulb. Do your research before you write this trash.

    BP, learn to spell, you is obfiously unejucated.

    Mike S., keep up the good fight.

  86. The boys in the monkey suits were still pissed about the 4 pigs that got offed a few months ago. They reacted in typical Nazi fashion. Mixon Now!!!

  87. Richard Heade 1, August 6, 2009 at 9:55 pm

    The boys in the monkey suits were still pissed about the 4 pigs that got offed a few months ago. They reacted in typical Nazi fashion. Mixon Now!!!
    ********************

    Now, Now. Please see the earlier thread of the cop and the cow. We don’t refer to them as pigs anymore. They are now referred to as cowfockers. They are in the circle of trust. You understand that Cows fly over the moon, pis fly and Mr. Ed talks. Ok, so now that we are all om the same page oh Paige yes he is in trouble for that too, but so are a lot of Senators. If you are Barney Frank, then you have to turn your page as oppose to bending the ears. That is a whole nother position.

  88. As most of the responses here are honest and even tempered I applaud that. Some are very uneducated and just plain ignorant. I’ll leave those alone. The effects of OC or a baton last for a long time. 30-45 minutes for OC and a baton, well could spell problems. A tasers effects are done as soon as the officer releases the trigger. I have to say that the numerous writers that gave the advice of do what the nice officers say first and fight it later is very wise. I will never say that every officer is correct in every move and every incident. I am not that stupid. But police officers are human, they have the same emotions and feelings that you do. I wish they could just take their personal lives and hang them in their locker when they put on their uniform. But this is unreasonable and surely does not happen. Sometimes I think the short fuses may be a product of our time. How many times has the clerk, attendant or other public service type provider given you a smart answer. Buddha I welcome folks like you to take me to court. I very calmly and professionally tell what I saw and then you tell what you saw, the judge finds you guilty, you pay your fine and go on with life. Your threats of a “desk job” make me laugh. We find amusement that folks call us lazy but then accuse of stopping you for no reason. I have no quota I can write as many as I want. So if I stop you, I am 100% sure you did what I said you did. Now with that said, did you run the light, I don’t know, I give you the benefit of the doubt. But why did you feel compelled to say anything? Are you one of those folks who have the last word or be damned. Were you not just as responsible for that situation as the “Jackbooted Cop”? Its real simple obey the laws of the land. Cops don’t make laws, but they raised their hand and swore to do whatever to enforce them. To include giving their life for you and your family. I hope to hell you never need a policeman, as they will come and do their job in a caring and professional way. But when they leave and your little world is back to normal, where do they go? To another call and another and another and everyone thinks that their problem deserves 100% of that officers care and concern, and they are right. Then they will go to an intersection where some blowhard has ran a red light and hit a car carrying kids home from a soccer game and he/she will have to comfort a family whose child is crumpled and dead. Had to witness that scene more than I wish to remember. But you press on brother, hope you have the chance to put this old cop behind a desk. Bet you can’t!

  89. POOHBEAR 1, August 6, 2009 at 10:47 pm

    As most of the responses here are honest and even tempered I applaud that. . . .

    “We find amusement that folks call us lazy but then accuse of stopping you for no reason.”

    ******************************

    Sir, I do not want your job nor do you want mine. I will state that I have been stopped by the Police for nothing at all. They were looking for a reason to stop me. I have been a defense attorney for the very client that you are chosen to up hold and protect. Sir there is a certain element of Police that view attorneys as a vile living being that must be extinguished as easily as you would step on an ant. They accounted for about 35 percent of a 100 man police force. Maybe it was just my manner of representing my client, maybe it was just me. But we too took an Oath to uphold the laws as Justice dictates.

    Is a Police Officers word better than an Ordinary citizen? It depends upon the fact and circumstances of each case, would you not agree. Criminal Defendants lie, we all know that right? Wrong. Some just were stupid at the moment and under the influence. The Criminal drug Defendants that I have the most respect for are the ones that never ratted out anyone. They did the crime, they did the time. I can count 4 out of more that 997 drug cases that I handled in my career.

    I became quite familiar with what was usually an agreeable plea agreement and too offense when the LEO would dictate to the Prosecutor what they could or could not do. That sir, is not justice. Once the collar is made, your job is over. Once the Defendant is sentenced the Judges job is over. The Prosecutor and the Defense Attorney still have more cases to dispose of. Yours is just one of many.

    I understand your point of view and I understand Buddhas. I think and maybe I am speaking out of turn. I think he was stating that the officer should show respect. That is all. FYI, generally the state Troopers are better qualified than most locals. The state usually puts more time and resources into training than locals do. I have a lot of respect for most of the Troopers from Michigan and the Department of Public Safety for Texas. Now get local and I see Buddhas point. You must be a state employee and treat each and everyone with upmost respect.

  90. to all these taser loving cops, hey if your job is so dangerous(which i’m sure it is)if its that bad for you, just quit, NO one is making you stay!! but since you love the extra benefits of being a bully, you won’t quit you’ll just keep picking on people.

  91. He deserved it! Anyone who resorts to racial comments deserves any negative reaction and in this case, a tasered response.

  92. bp:

    “MIKE S – You are the prime example os someone educated with no sense. Your views regarding officers as “servants” are as antiquated as the view that mentally ill should be hiden away from the public. Your earlier comments regarding obey, can just as easily be transferred to the term servant. Reality is that they are often criticized and rarely recognized.”

    ***********

    Unfortunately, you forget the other choice in your scenario for those we entrust with the right to use deadly force: if not our servants, they will become our masters. Mike S’s notion of public servants is about as “quaint” as the Geneva Conventions are, and you as the offspring of such an honorable man should know better even if our neocon blight did not. Police officers have their crosses to bear, but please don’t insult us with the notion of victimhood for these officers. I know of no politician, public official, or everyday citizen who doesn’t acknowledge the dangerous and necessary work of law enforcement. They are not free from criticism however — nor should they be as long as humans wear the uniform. Finally, your rather unlettered comments about Mike S are over the top. Mike S puts incredible thought and time into his well argued responses, and your silly conclusion that he has “no sense” reveals more about you than your pitiful attempt to denigrate Mike S.

  93. Wow, after reading this thread I’ve decided that other than most of the regular’s input I’ve missed out on absolutely nothing.

    Carry on …

  94. OK, he was already being handcuffed. The officer had cuffed him, after he was tasered. I wasn’t there, and I wasn’t any of the officers, but after he gets tased, the damn officer sticks him again, with the taser. At that point, they take him out. Now the guys falls down, injures himself. Ok, he may have deserved it. I’ve been at games, where a’holes, really get out of hand.I think that last taser was excessive. Alot of people, made comments, “he deserved it”. I just think that last one, should have been done, that’s all.

  95. Here’s what happened. The officer gets one cuff on and the fat man refuses to stand up. The second officer moves around to the back with the Taser while the fat man taunts a third officer. What a mature reasonable person, right? Once the fat man pulls his hand away he’s resisting. The one cuff not attached to anything is a dangerous instrument that can be swung around like a weapon and cause serious injury. The officer deploys the Taser and has a disconnect. You see the fat man react but it does not lock him up unti the officer drives the Taser into his back and completes what Taser calls Neruomuscular Incapacitation. Only for a second until the fat man falls out of his seat and is taken into custody. There are countless douschebags walking around today that shouldn’t be because of the Taser. It does not kill, you hippies, it can’t. Or there’d be hundreds of thousands of overweight officers who’ve died after being Tasered in training. Stop watching TV and do some research.

  96. Salty –

    “The one cuff not attached to anything is a dangerous instrument”

    Which the officers gave him? So if a cop pushed a gun into his hands then now he has a dangerous instrument and must be shot? Follow the logic, genius …

    “There are countless douschebags walking around today that shouldn’t be because of the Taser. ”

    What does that even mean? Because of the taser there are more so-called douchebags walking around today? Do you mean because of the taser’s misuse and the lawsuits that ensue there are actually more douchebags walking around? You may be right, friendo.

    “It does not kill, you hippies, it can’t.”

    It actually can and it has. Try a little research yo’self, fool.

    And BTW, “hippies” is such a dated term. We would prefer “pinkos”, “commies” or “punks”.

    And while you’re at it, Officer Crew-Cut, why don’t you just spray the guy down with a fire hose and sick the dogs on him?

    Your world must really, really suck …

    Stop watching so much youtube and take your pills.

  97. Again, I have to ask: What kind of lameass training did these THREE cops get that they couldn’t cuff ONE overweight guy without tasing him?

    Good Lord, what a bunch of pussies!

    BTW: Salty, you’re an idiot — many many people die from tasering. Maybe you want to get off the couch and do some research. Here’s a hint where to start: http://www.alternet.org/rights/44455/.

  98. Everyone has an opinion about how cops should do their jobs, unfortunately most of the opinions come from ignorance and what is seen on TV. Picking apart an incident for days, weeks, and months is not something police officers have the luxury of doing when they are on a scene. I do believe police have to be accountable for their actions, but the opinions people present as facts without having walked a mile in an officer’s shoes is sad and bothersome.

  99. MOJO: All your dad had to do was yank that cuff hard enough and he’d have it away from them, you fool. Those nice men were trying to take it easy on the old guy rather than pummeling him. If you had a weapon anyone could take it from you and use it against you too. What idiot’s gonna give your dad a gun anyway. Try using reality as a basis for comparison. There are plenty of people who should/could have been shot and were Tasered instead. They’re alive today because of this device. Your dad being one of them.
    MARS: It cannot kill, try reading the medical research compendium containing REAL science that proves the Taser is safe. Take a class on electricity and look at the internal components of the device. I’m sure you also believe all those people that Amnesty International lists as fatalities had no prior drug history or were experiencing aggitated delirium with a neuroleptic malignant syndrome either, you doushebag.
    You know what? Forget the Taser and let the cops go back to nightsticks.

  100. Interesting post and video.

    Assuming what I saw on the video was accurate, the man was placed under arrest, was non-compliant in responding to the officer’s verbal commands, and began pulling away from being restrained–I imagine the use of a taser in that scenario fits within the officer’s departmental use of force policy.

    From a policing perspective, when someone is placed under arrest and refuses to comply, it is never a pretty sight. If the officers would have not used the taser, a fight would have certainly increased the chances of others getting injured. Also, the crowd’s reaction would have been likely the same.

  101. Google

    Advanced Search
    Preferences
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    Hide optionsS
    how options…

    Results 1 – 10 of about 156,000 for death by taser statistics. (0.17 seconds)
    ____

    A quick perusal of the return for that search will quickly show you that stun guns are far from non-lethal and on the very cutting edge of abusive police behavior.

    It’s called “indexing” and “computers”, salty.

    You shouldn’t spew out authoritarian apologist bullshit over a medium that people can easily debunk your claims over. Unless you just like looking foolish.

    And it’s spelled “douche bag”, you simpleton, but what should I expect from some jackass who thinks “hippies” is still an insult. You might be less ignorant if you’d gotten out of the house since 1969. Nixon resigned, you know, but there’s still hope for you fascists yet.

  102. Never been a cop. My deceased dad was a Tennessee sheriff for 8 yrs. and chief deputy for another 7 yrs. He also spent 2 yrs. as a small town chief of police. In all those years he never pulled his gun on someone that he was arresting. He sustained several injuries including having a ruptured disc in his neck removed. He was man enough to prefer risking his own safety over the possibility of seriously injuring or killing someone.

    The one time he pulled his gun in the performance of his duty was on other police officers. A guy that I had actually gone to high school with had been severely beaten by town police and as the sheriff he went to the city jail and after seeing how badly injured he was demanded that they release him into his custody. When they refused he pulled his gun and took him from their jail. He rushed the guy to the nearest hospital were he died from the night stick beating.

    I can speak for what my dad’s reaction would be to the police using a taser on this guy. He would be enraged. If they worked for him they would have been immediately fired and charged with a criminal act.

    BTW, I did spend some time as a military police and never hit someone with a nightstick. On a few occasions I had to arrest drunken out of control soldiers. Once I had to fight a drunk soldier for about 5 minutes before getting some help in subduing him. I ended up with a broken nose and both ankles badly sprained. I would have done it all over again before hitting him in the head with a billy club or using something as serious as a taser.

  103. Looks to me like the guy got what he deserved. What sucks is that he’ll probably sue someone and will win.

  104. Hey Poohbear,

    Cross me and see how long you stay on patrol too, sport. What the officer did WAS THREATEN ME. For no other reason that stating I would be in court. If you think that’s acceptable, then screw you too jackboot. I bet my law degree vs. your limited cop knowledge that I can push systemic buttons much better than you. Threaten me after you’ve written a ticket and see how long it takes me to get you trouble. I start chewing ass from the Duty Sergent and work my way to IA. We won’t even mention the ration of shit I am capable of delivering to the Chief and Mayor’s office or the press. He’s getting a write up a minimum over this. Had he acted worse? As in follow through with the threat of his bullshit ticket? You bet I’d have him riding the pine. I’ve done it before and I’ll do it again. This time is no different, Officer Reach Exceeding Your Grasp. Try your threats and bullshit against a citizen who doesn’t know both the law and his rights next time if you don’t want it to bite you in the ass. He wanted to act like Mr. Big Penis and it backfired on him.

    Too bad for him.

  105. Wow I was going to post something supporting the use of a tazer if the guy became violent but the Tazer Lobby beat me to it.

  106. “MIKE S – You are the prime example os someone educated with no sense. Your views regarding officers as “servants” are as antiquated as the view that mentally ill should be hiden away from the public. Your earlier comments regarding obey, can just as easily be transferred to the term servant. Reality is that they are often criticized and rarely recognized. Im glad you were able to “rise above” with a father. Mine was killed in the line of duty when I was 6, “serving” the public.”

    bp,
    I truly am sorry that you lost your father at age 6 and I now from losing my folks at an early age how much that hurts. My guess is, not knowing you but knowing what I felt losing my folks, was that it made you very angry. I would respectfully suggest that you do something to deal with that anger or it will come back to hurt you, or those you love. I’m not trying to put you down, but here is why I am saying this.

    1. Everything I’ve written to you has been done respectfully,
    not because you might be an officer, but because I am respectful of others in general. In each case you answered back in a very disrespectful way and one that can be interpreted as you believing yourself superior to me.

    2. You’ve used the term “educated” as if it was a swear word. Why is that. Do you think that “educated” people look down on you. If someone with education looks down on someone without as much education, that someone with education is to me and
    ass h**le. My father was the smartest man I’ve ever met and he dropped out in 9th grade. No one here was putting police down because they are “uneducated,” so where was this coming from? More than that as I’ve said I’ve known and even been friends with many officers in my lifetime and I knew many with Master’s Degrees, one with a Doctorate and plenty who were college graduates. Even if p.o.’s aren’t that well educated, they are in general fairly intelligent. However,
    there also are some who are fairly intelligent “ass h**les.”
    Just like with any other people.

    3. You didn’t even bother to read close enough, or pay close enough attention to realize that I pretty much thought this tasering was justified. That worries me regarding how you do your job if your are a P.O.. If anyone should pay close attention to what’s going on around them it should be a P.O., because lack of attention could easily lead to a loss of life.

    4. The definition of police officers, firepeople, sanitation people and other people who work for the government is civil (or public)servants. Yet you seem to think you are better than that and that you get to boss the public around and have no feeling that in a public job, you are indeed a public servant.

    “Reality is that they are often criticized and rarely recognized.”

    You are wrong and it’s sad if you don’t know it because the evidence is all around, starting with the fact that most TV Dramas are ones where the Police are shown in a very good light. The original CSI is the top rated TV drama. Secondly, you can’t name me a politician in the country who doesn’t speak well of the police in general.

    What you don’t get, because perhaps you spend time bitching with your police buddies is that the police have developed an “I can’t get no respect” chip on their shoulders, when the reverse is true. Do you honestly believe that all police are good, honest people, because if you do you are lying to yourself? There was a NYC Police Sergeant, who had an office to hang out in my father’s car dealership, who was the “bagmen” for all bribes for traffic tickets in the Borough of Brooklyn. I knew the guy and I knew what he did. Do you think he shouldn’t have been blamed, or that he was above the law if he was a police man? If you really do then I would suggest you are not fulfilling the oath you swore to uphold justice.

  107. working man,
    Your Dad appears to be someone you can be very, very proud of and who was exactly what a Law Officer should be.

  108. Mike Spindell, this link is to my pop’s obituary. Note that it says Sheriff, chief deputy, police chief, Army WWII and Korea (plus truck driver).

    http://www.stategazette.com/story/1098655.html

    As sheriff he had to serve as circuit court bailiff. He disliked the judge and once walked out of the court in defiance because the judge let “well to do” people off with a slap on the wrist but sentenced poor people to long jail terms for the same offense. He was well liked by common folks and would have been sheriff longer but for term limits.

  109. working man,

    Your dad and my grandfather should have had a beer together.

    That’s very much a compliment.

  110. Salty: “Tasers never kill, except for when they do.”

    Now I get it: Salty’s a sockpuppet from Taser, Inc. Makes perfect sense; nobody could spew so much misinfo by accident.

    (ps: somebody at the home office should teach Salty how to spell “Douchebag” so that when he gives autographs he gets it right.)

  111. The thing is Buddha that as a professional I do not allow folks like you to push my buttons. Folks like you do this so they can do the things that you listed. I do my job and write the ticket for the offense which you committed. I have a funny habit of trying to write for a lesser offense if the person is respectful of me and my office. Now let someone decide that he wants to be a jerk, then I write what I can prove and nothing else. Are there jerks out there wearing badges, you are damn right there are. Some of the folks here suggest that we protect them, but be very aware that in most situations they are found and weeded out. Labor laws protect cops too. Don’t believe what you see in movies. Those are meant to entertain. Just like it portrays lawyers to be scumbags. But you never said whether or not the red light ticket stood. Because where I work you may have had an officer riding pine for what he did but you would still pay the ticket. That sport, is a certainty! Have a pleasant life.

  112. Poohbear writes: The thing is Buddha that as a professional I do not allow folks like you to push my buttons. Folks like you do this so they can do the things that you listed. I do my job and write the ticket for the offense which you committed. I have a funny habit of trying to write for a lesser offense if the person is respectful of me and my office. Now let someone decide that he wants to be a jerk, then I write what I can prove and nothing else.

    me: why not just write the ticket for the actual offense and leave it at that? why give or take away points based on likeability? or because they are having a bad day that you have made worse?
    clearly your buttons do get pushed. why not just be honest about that?

    I learned at a very early age to distrust police and to steer clear of them.
    this has worked pretty well for me and the few times I’ve been pulled over for speeding I’ve managed to talk my way out of a ticket every time but once.
    I was once pulled over for coasting through a stop sign. there were no cars anywhere near the intersection and I had a screaming infant in the car seat in back on the way to the pediatrician. the officer took pity on me because the longer he wanted to berate me the harder and louder my child cried. I don’t know if he let me go because my baby was in visible distress or if it was because my hair was standing on end and he was too freaked out to continue with his safety first lecture.
    I dont care if there are good cops and bad cops. I simply don’t want to have anything to do with cops in general.

  113. I think tasing the man was unnessary, due to the fact that they tased him when he was already handcuffed. My greatest issue is with the man in the background that was pushed down stairs by security. I personally know him & spoke to him about the sitution. He had asked security what was going on & video taping the incident, when the unprovoked security guard pushed him down the stairs. This action caused him physical injuries, which he does have pictures of. In the video, you can clearly see he was not a threat & was immediately pushed for no reason. He was there with his wife to enjoy the game & was not drinking alcohol. The Coliseum staff insist that the Oakland PD confirms he was trying to penetrate the barrier but it’s obvious they did not see the incident & it’s clearly not the case on the video. What’s is the Oakland Coliseum going to do about it???

  114. working man:

    Your father apparently believed, as do most of us here, that the best defense an officer has is his decency in dealing with the public. Greatest generation, indeed.

  115. Poohbear,

    Apparently you’re not smart enough to realize it wouldn’t be your buttons I’d be pushing.

    That’s why you’ll always be a beat cop, genius.

  116. public health alert-Hot Dogs maybe good for you:

    “And as it turns out, sodium nitrate (the chemical used to preserve and color hot dogs and other meats) may have a beneficial effect on all the body’s organs — heart, brain, lungs, everywhere the blood flows. Sodium nitrate seems to have the ability to guard your cells against hypoxia (lack of oxygen).”

    next time you are at a ball game and before you are tasered have a couple of red hots so that if you stop breathing your cells will be protected.

    I always figured that a Hebrew National, as good as they taste with mustard, relish, onions and sauerkraut, had to be good for you.

  117. working man,
    Very few of us are ever remembered when history is written. I
    believe though that it isn’t the fame or fortune one has, but the life lived and the lessons passed on to our descendants. You
    have had an excellent role model. A person who also passed on to his community the lesson of a life well led ethically and morally. A hundred years from now the world will remember very little of almost all of us, but the good we’ve done and the lessons that good has taught to others, will have spread wider than we are capable of imagining.

  118. Oh he is not from Texas, he lives in San Francisco.
    He is ill, and if he goes off his meds he gets mouthy.
    I have known him for 20 yrs.

  119. Kim:

    does that make it okay to tase him? Is he dangerous when off his meds or just mouthy?

    I am certainly a law and order type guy, but I do think the police use the taser too much. It does have its place in non-lethal restraint but in my mind should not be used to subdue drunks in public.

    The number of taser incidents that this sight has brought to light are disturbing due to the apparent cavalier attitude had by some in law enforcement when using a taser. These things can be deadly and should only be used as a last resort in non-lethal encounters.

    Being a police officer is extremely stressful but these individuals choose this line of work and by virtue of their authority and responsibility should be held to a high standard of behaviour.

  120. More Police State Homeland Gestapo

    Anthrax Intimidation.
    JFK RFK MLK Malcolm.
    Gung-ho Chickenhawks.
    Israel-first dual-nationals.
    InfoWars on a PrisonPlanet?
    A very RawStory on PressTV.
    Whistle-Blower leaks multiply.
    Beware the divide and conquer.
    Both parties are corrupt to the core.
    Honesty compassion conscience guts.
    Speak no evil, hear no evil, see no evil?
    Elite Ruling Class Greed or “public servants”?
    Independents agree on more than we disagree.
    AIPAC 9/11 Bankers Extortion Blackmail Bribery.
    Wall Street Bailout Bill: Bush McCain Obama et al.
    Poodles, Puppets, Sham debates, & Scam elections.
    Does the Government & Propaganda Media lie to you?
    Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
    Chronic lying as career path, intellectual prostitution for paycheck.
    DNC & RNC have both sold out the country in order to enrich themselves.
    Future of a Nation that can not trust the Government & Propaganda Media?

    Realignment of American Politics:
    Anderson Baldwin Carter Choate Clemente Gonzalez Gravel Kaptur Kucinich McKinney Nader Paul Perot Sheehan Ventura

  121. This incident has generated quite a few comments.
    I am not a cop or a lawyer, nor is anyone in my family. I was not at the game.
    However, I do have a question based on the video.

    There is a spectator on private property and it appears that he is being asked to leave.
    It appears the spectator is not cooperative.
    At 58 seconds on the video, the spectator thumbs his nose at a cop.
    That’s a good clue that he is not going to follow any instructions.

    You are a cop asked to step in and get this person off your private property.
    The person you are dealing with is not only not cooperating, but by thumbing his nose, it is reasonable to say he is defiant.
    The cops do not know this person or anything about his mental or medical issues.
    Their assignment is to remove this person from this property. The property owner has every right to have this done.

    If you do not tase this defiant person, what do you do?

  122. question man writes: f you do not tase this defiant person, what do you do?

    golly QM… whatever did we do before tasers were invented? just shoot people?
    clearly, there were ways to get uncooperative people to cooperate prior to the invent of the taser.
    now.
    what does your little brain tell you?

  123. Well, I also watched this video. You can clearly see that while his arms and hands were out infront of him, and he was not resisting arrest anymore, that is when that “Power minded A**hole of a cop” tasered him in the back. Totally uncalled for. Not only once, but twice. He was not a threat to anyone. He was sitting in his chair. Now i can understand if he stood up and got in the officer’s face, but that’s not what happened.

    A perfect example of a bad police officer that thinks he is above every one else. He should lose his job and/or sued. The guy hit his head. I have no idea how hard or what damage. Doesnt matter. The man was sitting back in his chair not resisting arrest and being handcuffed.

    Next time I see that officer, I am going to use me 1st ammendment rights on him and see if he tasers me. Easiest money I will ever make.

  124. GW Mommy Dearest,

    My question was asked without insulting any posters or professions. Sorry that a simple question sets you off. My sympathies to anyone who has to be around you in real life.

    Generic comments about not having tasers X years ago is not relevant to the question. The list of items/products used today but did not exist X years ago is a long one. We got by without them too.

    Back to the point.
    You are an Oakland police officer assigned to eject a defiant trespassor. What specific action would you take to remove this uncooperative spectator from private property? I am intentionally not adding example options that would influence a reply.

    Can anyone answer that?

  125. Question Man writes: My question was asked without insulting any posters or professions. Sorry that a simple question sets you off. My sympathies to anyone who has to be around you in real life.

    Generic comments about not having tasers X years ago is not relevant to the question. The list of items/products used today but did not exist X years ago is a long one. We got by without them too.

    Back to the point.
    You are an Oakland police officer assigned to eject a defiant trespassor. What specific action would you take to remove this uncooperative spectator from private property? I am intentionally not adding example options that would influence a reply.

    Can anyone answer that?

    hmmmm. I seem to have struck a nerve. when you have run out of intelligent discourse that seem to be when you resort to personal attack.
    of course, the time before tasers is relevant. there were certainly unruly drunk spectators at ballgames them. there were certainly people who resisted arrest before tasers. we had beer back then and baseball and thetwo mixed just about as well then as they do now. take that any way you want.
    if you can’t think of ways to subdue a rowdy drunk without a taser you just are not very well trained or very smart.
    I am not an Oakland Police Officer so I won’t play you little hypothetical.

  126. I as a law enforcement officer do not make the laws nor do I set fines. I do however hold the power of what I put down on paper. You call the fact that I can give someone a break on an inflated traffic fine wrong? I think not. Its my way of saying that I too am a citizen and I think the fines are out of hand. Now for your excuse for running the stop sign. I have heard most of them and they are usually bullshit. The thing is that if there was no one coming it would have added three to five seconds to your journey and been safer for everyone. But it seems that you are able to pick and choose the laws you obey or whatever suits you at the moment. Traffic laws are put in place not to inconvenience you but to keep us all safe. But when people as yourself decide they have the right to disobey when they wish then the greater public is at danger. Hope your child was fine.

  127. poohbear writes: as a law enforcement officer do not make the laws nor do I set fines. I do however hold the power of what I put down on paper. You call the fact that I can give someone a break on an inflated traffic fine wrong? I think not. Its my way of saying that I too am a citizen and I think the fines are out of hand. Now for your excuse for running the stop sign. I have heard most of them and they are usually bullshit. The thing is that if there was no one coming it would have added three to five seconds to your journey and been safer for everyone. But it seems that you are able to pick and choose the laws you obey or whatever suits you at the moment. Traffic laws are put in place not to inconvenience you but to keep us all safe. But when people as yourself decide they have the right to disobey when they wish then the greater public is at danger. Hope your child was fine.

    the real truth is you like the power your badge gives you. you can be merciful or not. your choice. that is the definition of power over others.
    so I rolled through a stop sign. had there been another car i’d have stopped all the way. no one was at risk. and the officer knew that if he’d pointed his speed gun at the brick wall he was parked next to it’d been clocked at 50 mph.
    my kid wasn’t fine. she is now. 20 years later.
    it didn’t get me to the doctor that much faster.. my kid was weird about the stop and go of the car and ear infections will do that to them.

  128. I think MLB has had its Heros and Bullies throughout the time. Abner being NO EXCEPTION. When baseball was gaining momentum in the US, some of the players could not play because they were too drunk or high on cocaine. Cobb certainly would have been banned from participation.

    If memory serves me correctly was not Brooklyn a lovely place to live when the syndicate decided to move them to LA? Did I say Syndicate, I meant the family.

    I would garner to say that less than 10 percent of the original players could have passed a drug test in any sense of the imagination today.

  129. hmmmm. I seem to have struck a nerve. when you have run out of intelligent discourse that seem to be when you resort to personal attack.
    of course, the time before tasers is relevant. there were certainly unruly drunk spectators at ballgames them. there were certainly people who resisted arrest before tasers. we had beer back then and baseball and thetwo mixed just about as well then as they do now. take that any way you want.
    if you can’t think of ways to subdue a rowdy drunk without a taser you just are not very well trained or very smart.
    I am not an Oakland Police Officer so I won’t play you little hypothetical.
    **********

    Actually, you started the personal attack. Keep in mind you reap what you sow.

    Your generic reference to something that happened X years ago is meaningless. Just because something did not exist X years ago does not by mean it should not be used now. The issue at hand, however, is the question you will not answer.

    You say you are not an Oakland police officer and therefore will not answer. However, your own words indicate that someone who cannot figure out how to subdue a rowdy drunk is not very smart. Are you saying you are not very smart? I have come up with multiple options and you cannot come up with one?

    As I said before, I refrained from adding example options that would influence a reply. Consequently, your avoidance is very telling. It is clear you will not answer because you can’t, or more likely, you are afraid that you will somehow fail.

    It appears you are incapable of defending your criticism of the police using a taser other than making generic comments about rowdy people existed before tasers.
    It is one thing to criticize others, however, criticizing and at the same time refusing to provide a specific alternative when the opportunity is presented speaks volumes about you.

    By the way, you do not know this Oakland spectator was drunk. Be careful about just making things up.

  130. Question Man:

    GW law mommy dearest is a vapid twit. is that an oxymoron? The missive above appeared to have been written under the influence. WWI?

    I guess you could smack him on the head with a billy club or a black jack. Put the old sleeper hold on him or half or full nelsons. Take him down and put a knee in his back while cuffing him. Any number of things they used to do.

  131. My heart goes out to families who have lost loved ones to tragedy. However, I do NOT concede my point. Although anything from ballpoint pens to hotel towels have killed people, few groups have made it their life cause to lobby agains them as deadly instruments of torture. We can debate the correct spelling of doushebag all night, but the fact of the matter remains, there are few other options that would have served these officers better. No one can tell if the subject you’re dealing with is suffering from mental illness or higher than a kite right at that moment. Sometimes you don’t have all day to figure it out.

    I’d hate to believe that medical examiners are listing contributory factors of death with no medical basis for their judgments. Keep a close eye on that one.

    As a side here are a few options for those officers; tactics that might have been used prior to the advent of the Taser. There’s a pressure point that works well, just under the mandibular angle, for standing drunks up. This, however, relies on pain compliance, which may not work with the intoxicated. Arm bars work too, although when a subject is that big, you have to lift a few weights to counter his. You’ve heard of gym’s, right? If he fights or resists, you may have to step it up. Carotid control techniques aren’t called for, and the recovery is more sketchy than a Taser use. Or you could walk away and not do the job you’ve sworn, or are getting paid good off-duty money, to do.

  132. I recently slipped down to dugout seats at a Nationals game. Could I have been tasered if I refused to leave? “uh, my ticket? Like, I had it a minute ago. Yikes!

  133. “I think MLB has had its Heros and Bullies throughout the time. Abner being NO EXCEPTION.”

    AY,
    You are more correct than you might even know. In the 50’s for instance so-called “greenies” were available in the locker room to whoever wanted it. These were early amphetamines. Alcoholism has always been prevalent throughout baseball’s history. Abner Doubleday had nothing to do with inventing baseball and it was known when MLB introduced the fable, so they intentionally lied. The racism in Baseball was of course palpable and came about when a redneck star Adrian Cap Anson refused to play with Blacks in the 1880’s, when there were some already playing. Anson is in the Hall of Fame. Between the scuffed balls and tricked up bats baseball is actually the only sport that has through its’ history put a premium on cheating. Thrown games were common throughout the sports’ history up until the 1920 Black Sox Scandal.

    The Oakland A’s were originally the Philadelphia Athletics one of the most successful teams of all times, whose owner Connie Mack decided he could make even more money by fielding a poorly paid team. He owned and managed them for 50 years and turned a great franchise into a joke. The team was moved to Kansas City in the early 50’s and basically served as a “farm team” for the NY Yankees, since its’ owner was financially beholden to the Yankees owner. When the KC market became fed up with a purposely bad team, they then skipped to Oakland.

    The worst, however, was the Brooklyn Dodgers, the team of my youth. They were actually at the time of their move the wealthiest team in baseball, but their owner Walter O’Malley was given the entire Chavez Ravine in a lucrative land deal, that moved out poor Mexicans and turned his back on the most loyal fans in the country, almost destroying Brooklyn in the process. It was a move tinged with racism.

    I know this stuff because since my youth my hobby was baseball statistics and Baseball in general. I was even a member of SABR (Society of American Baseball Research) for some years in the 80’s. I’ve grown tired of the game, though
    I still sort of root for the Mets. The years of it being run corruptly have taken their toll on me and I find I’ve lost interest in my old age.

  134. Good Ole’ General Abner Doubleday, Union Traitor, War Profiteer ready to service those who would pay.

    Mike S history needs scribner like you.

  135. I believe that the police responded with excess force. The person causing the disturbance was not even on his feet. I feel like further efforts could have been exhausted before the police used the tazer.

    The person causing the problems at the game has a disease called Schizophrenia is a chronic, severe, and disabling brain disorder. Its surprising that the police were not able to recognize that this person was not just drunk and agitated but that he was mentally ill as well. I watched the video once and recognized that the person may have schizophrenia or some mental impairment.

    People with schizophrenia may hear voices other people don’t hear or they may believe that others are reading their minds, controlling their thoughts, or plotting to harm them. These experiences are terrifying and can cause fearfulness, withdrawal, or extreme agitation. Clearly, this situation agitated this person and the symptoms of his schizophrenia only worsened as the situation progressed. People with schizophrenia may not make sense when they talk, may sit for hours without moving or talking much, or may seem perfectly fine until they talk about what they are really thinking.

    Our police need to be better trained in recognizing and handling people who suffer from these types of mental impairments. This person has a severe case of schizophrenia and suffers from other mental illness as well. Some of this sickness was caused by childhood trauma including but not limited to molestation and physical abuse. Not to mention, this person served his country in the Vietnam War which only advanced his mental health condition. I understand that police offers are trained to focus on safety and that is their priority. However, with so many Americans suffering from untreated mental illnesses it seems like we as a country should be driving for a cure and better access to treatment for all who suffer from mental illnesses and not just criminal justice. Perhaps, if the severely mentally ill were treated maybe crime would be reduced?

    I know most people are thinking why doesn’t this guy just take his meds and he will be better? There are a variety of reasons why people with schizophrenia do not adhere to treatment. If they don’t believe they are ill, they may not think they need medication at all. If their thinking is too disorganized, they may not remember to take their medication every day. If they don’t like the side effects of one medication, they may stop taking it without trying a different medication. Substance abuse can also interfere with treatment effectiveness. Its really hard to understand the mind of people with schizophrenia until you walk a mile in their shoes.

    Schizophrenia is an extremely puzzling condition, the most chronic and disabling of the major mental illnesses. Its unfortunate that people who suffer from treatment resistant mental illnesses such as this are viewed as “burdens” on the society and treated like animals and not human beings. I certainly hope that some public service worker reaches out and tries to find help for this person so he is able to live a meaningful life in the community.

    Again, public safety of innocent people is of the most importance. I just only hope that the public can be more aware of mental illnesses and schizophrenia. These people suffer, something those of us who are not mentally ill will never understand. It would be great if our country could focus more on getting good treatment and services for people who have schizophrenia. Its no wonder that more then 20% of people in prison in the USA are severely mentally ill and most often it is untreated.

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