Like many bloggers, I find Palin irresistible to watch like a primate without an opposable thumb: a reverse evolutionary wonder that is able to function despite the obvious advantages of other competing mammals. The Tea Party convention (covered adoringly by Fox) was no disappointment with Palin proclaiming that she is prepared to run against Obama and his “hopey, changey” policies. When asked about her priorities for the nation, she quickly rattled off three priorities, including oil/gas exploration and an Administration that openly seeks “divine intervention” so that we can prosper again.
The godly answer comes around 3:45 on the video. What is so striking is how Palin attributes the current crisis to the failure to publicly call for divine intervention.
Palin also introduced the country to the poor person’s teleprompter with clearly visible notes written on the inside of her hand, here.
The crowd clearly relished every line, including such greetings as “I am so proud to be an American. Thank you so much for being here tonight. Do you love your freedom?” The correct answer to yes.
Continuing her effort to fully morph into Tina Faye’s stereotype from Saturday Night Live, Palin asked “This was all part of that hope and change and transparency. Now, a year later, I gotta ask the supporters of all that, ‘How’s that hopey, changey stuff working out for ya?’”
Palin appears to be combining a potent mix of monotheistic faith and monosyllabic words to rally her base. In this faith-based fantasy world, simply calling for divine intervention is likely enough to push the Dow back above 10,000 and restart the housing market. She fails to explain how the crash occurred under Bush who made faith-based politics what it is today. But none of that matters to this crowd, which appears desperate to hear a leader say that it is merely a matter of drilling and praying to return to “the good days.”
Sarah Palin – the comedic gift that keeps on giving.
I think she very well could be the republican nominee now that the tea party folks have decided to stay in the republican party.
I don’t think Palin even knows what she’s talking about. She’s like the energizer bunny of blather.
EXCLUSIVE (Update): Palin’s Tea Party Crib Notes (Huffington Post, 2/7/2010)
Excerpt:
Closer inspection of a photo of Sarah Palin, during a speech in which she mocked President Obama for his use of a teleprompter, reveals several notes written on her left hand. The words “Energy”, “Tax” and “Lift American Spirits” are clearly visible. There’s also what appears to read as “Budget cuts” with the word Budget crossed out.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stefan-sirucek/did-palin-use-crib-notes_b_452458.html
************
The article goes on to say that the notes were probably for the Q&A session that followed Palin’s speech. You can see pictures of her left hand at the Huffington Post article.
At least during her speech she didn’t look like she was at a tennis match.
Thank god we have someone willing to stand-up for the principles of the fat, greedy and willfully ignorant, again.
I, too, am just so proud to be an American.
Now, maybe god and baby jesus will start returning our phone calls.
Pat Robertson/Sarah Palin 2012………….and then let the end of the world begin! (hey that maybe a good idea for a movie. Its mine! trademark. copyright.)
Governor Perry of Texas is also probably running for president. I can see a Palin/Perry ticket. I am not joking.
Tennis? Not for Sarah! She goes in for more manly sports like shooting wolves from helicopters.
Swarthmore mom–
Sounds like a ticket with two great candidates–a wannabe secessionist and the wife of a wannabe secessionist. Imagine where they could lead our nation!
Maybe they could secede and form a white christian nation.
And I would willing let them do so. The question is do you think Uranus is willing to accept them as a real life form or do you think we could sell them as artificial intelligence. Nah, the Uranium are probably smarter than that.
“Sounds like a ticket with two great candidates–a wannabe secessionist and the wife of a wannabe secessionist. Imagine where they could lead our nation!”
With Todd thrown in that mix–what a threesome…
A toxic mix of politically and religiously insane stooges, The Three christianeers.
Wait a minute! Perhaps I wuz wrong ’bout sissy Palin.
Ifn’gawd put all ‘dat gas n’ earl in the ground, then he done knows hits’ wharbouts, then by hisn whisperin’ in President Palin’s ear through prayer, she n’ VP Todd will know whar to drill and can pocket the taxpayer’s dough normally spent on geological exploration.
I see Palin is a disciple of the Gospel According to Larry.
God and oil?
What a nitwit.
I thought there was a God of Oil.
There is, AY. His name is Mammon.
Folks, I think we is done for anyway. Let’s just elect prez Palin and get it over with.
No wonder those ‘ragtops’ livin’ in 3rd world caves know they can defeat us with ‘Stike Anywhere Kitchen Matches’ shoe bombs.
First we elect G. Bush for *8* years and now put Palin on center stage. We are complete fools…
I must be dreamin’ and Oh, What a Dream!
I wonder if ‘Fesser T or Schoolmarm Ms. EM ever caught their students so obviously peekin’ at crib notes written in their hands.
I heard one person call that Palin’s “Telepalmter”
The notes scribbled on her hand? That’s the Palin version of Palm Pilot….
Good one athena, however, you gave me an idea. Since Palin is insanely religious, I would call it her creationist’s version of:
Psalm Pilot
Those are cute, just what she needs to sell the message of redemption….
At President Palin’s inauguration this will be her song as she walks down Pennsylvania Avenue while flailing her arms, winkin’, and sangin’:
I’ve Got the Whole World in the Psalm of My Hand
FF LEO and athena–
Telepalmter, Palm Pilot, and Psalm Pilot–good ones! With the help of divine intervention, Sarah has become a palm reader.
**********
Jack Cafferty Tells Us How He Really Feels About Sarah Palin
What’s that quote? For every elected office, there is a candidate that is simple, neat, and wrong?
She would not forgive Rahm for using the “R” word, but she forgave Rush for using it up.
Will she forgive the DOJ for actively seeking to hire lawyers with “mental retardation”?
Story is at Dailykos:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/2/8/834486/-Justice-Department-Seeks-Mentally-Retarded-Lawyers
Fire proof hand baskets for sale.
$1
BIS,
Many people could scrounge up the buck, but they aint got nothin’ left that works or is any good to put in that basket for the trip down yonder.
JT:
“Like many bloggers, I find Palin irresistible to watch like a primate without an opposable thumb: a reverse evolutionary wonder that is able to function despite the obvious advantages of other competing mammals.”
********************
Personally, I find her irresistible to watch too, but more like a train wreck — two hurtling forces with one most assuredly traveling the wrong way, one track, with a stupendous ending almost guaranteed. Hopefully, that ending doesn’t involve the rest of is.
Buddha:
Sign me up for two of those hand baskets.
Have the Repubs ever nominated for president the unsuccessful VP candidate of the previous election?
Yes, it called Richard Nixon.
That was good Buddha, Very, very good. LOL. But just because everyone else is jumping in a fad (or is it) does mean that I can stay and survive.
That is good though. Have you seen Bdaman today or duh or amon re?
“Like many bloggers, I find Palin irresistible to watch like a primate without an opposable thumb…”
I find watching or listening to her eminently resistable since doing so causes my head to spin, my blood pressure to rise and my stomach to wretch in a sickening churn.
You just need to relax. Just turn the volume down, she is not bad on the eyes, drink a few beers, and then think like a man. She will take your mind off of your other troubles.
Try it just once.
JT:
“Like many bloggers, I find Palin irresistible to watch like a primate without an opposable thumb: a reverse evolutionary wonder that is able to function despite the obvious advantages of other competing mammals.”
=========================================================
I enjoy watching the people who watch her … such devotion … such rapture … and then a very quick shot of a guy “sniggering” … fun!
“Palin’s role while his wife was Alaska’s governor, showing that the one-time oil field worker’s advice was sought on board appointments and suggesting he was close to matters related to state government, his wife’s image and politics.
Relatively few of the messages obtained as part of a public records request were sent by Todd Palin himself.
Rather, his personal e-mail address is included on messages sent by administration staff, top aides to then-Gov. Sarah Palin and Palin on topics ranging from use of the state plane to day-to-day governing issues and oil and gas legislation that Palin made a hallmark of her 2½ years in office.
But the e-mails, first reported by MSNBC.com, together provide fresh insight into what many had suspected was a highly influential role played by the self-proclaimed “First Dude.” They also reflect the at-times fierce loyalty that Todd Palin and others close to the former governor felt, particularly amid tensions with lawmakers and criticism in the media.
“Have Meg take the news miner off the press release address list for a few days,see how long it takes them to realize their not on the list,” Todd Palin wrote to his wife in an e-mail, dated June 21, 2007, after the governor questioned the fairness of an editor in Fairbanks Daily News-Miner.
It’s not clear from the e-mails whether there was a policy, unspoken or otherwise, that Todd Palin be copied in on certain matters either because he was a key adviser or a mere backstop to the governor. Several former aides to Sarah Palin declined comment Friday.
E-mails released came with a 19-page list that detailed information the state withheld for privacy, executive privilege and other reasons. Descriptions of those documents range from interview requests and potential board appointees to possible budget vetoes, gas production and confidentiality issues.
In November 2008, then-Palin chief of staff Michael Nizich wrote in response to a public records request denial that Todd Palin, “as first gentleman, is a proper advisor.”
“There is nothing inappropriate about the spouse of a chief executive playing such a role,” Nizich wrote. “The governor is absolutely entitled to involve him in policy matters as an advisor as she sees fit.”
Palin attorney Thomas Van Flein said in a statement Friday that each spouse of a chief executive is free to define his or her own role.
Todd Palin “was, and remains, a close advisor to the governor. Those in the administration knew this, and the public knew this,” he wrote. “There is nothing unusual, untoward or inappropriate for a spouse of a chief executive to provide guidance, input and hands on assistance.”
The e-mails are wide-reaching, ranging from housekeeping issues such as travel arrangements, trampoline jumping for his daughter Willow’s friends and power for a tanning bed to board appointments, legislation and ethics and politics.
One, from an administration aide in June 2007, said he’d found “very little” in response to Todd Palin’s request for background on an Alaska dairy official. In another e-mail, also from June 2007, Todd Palin asks the state Director of Boards and Commissions Ivy Frye about a potential judicial candidate, saying he’s “getting calls from folks hoping he’s not selected. Let me know whats happening so I can put to rest some of the rumors.” The person’s name was redacted.
Frye asks Palin in another e-mail if he knows Kim Williams of Dillingham, whose term on a domestic violence/sexual assault board was expiring. Contents of his response were redacted; Frye’s answer wasn’t: “Thank you. This was very helpful.”
Williams, who said she served on the board under former Gov. Frank Murkowski and no longer does, said she doesn’t care what Todd Palin may or may not have said about her. “It’s still the governor’s call,” she said Friday, adding she’s sure the person appointed by Sarah Palin is doing a “great job.”
The state’s current Boards and Commissions director, Jason Hooley, said that while he can’t speak to past practices, it’s not usual to try to vet applicants “in as many ways as possible.”
The traditional role of first spouse is one Todd Palin seemed ill-fitted for, though he did carry out some ceremonial duties, like hosting a tea at the governor’s mansion.
Clive Thomas, a political science professor at the University of Alaska Southeast, said the role the e-mails hint at him playing is unusual in Alaska. Past governors, at least publicly, did not appear influenced by their spouses.
“Obviously, you can’t stop a husband and wife, who are partners, from talking,” he said. ” … I guess she trusted her husband.”
So who made the decision to quite resign as Governor?
Good sir:
Ordinarily one might attack a political opponent or someone with whom one disagrees by discussing the merits of an idea. Instead you come right out with the ad hominem, mocking Ms. Palin as some sub-human evolutionary throwback.
Replace Palin with Obama in what you wrote here and consider the tone in that light. If you cannot make your points without leading off with an insulting ad hominem, perhaps you should work on your arguments.
If you were shooting for comedy, you missed the mark, and not by a little bit.
AY:
$$$$$$
“Like many bloggers, I find Palin irresistible to watch like a primate without an opposable thumb: a reverse evolutionary wonder that is able to function despite the obvious advantages of other competing mammals.”
Priceless
Here is another peek at Palin with the new Teabagger theme song:
http://gratuitousprattle.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-head-of-teabaggers-announced-with.html
Swarthmore mom: “Maybe they could secede and form a white christian nation.”
—Todd would be up for that, he’s been a member of an Alaskan secessionist movement for years.
What’s stopping Palin from asking for divine intervention right now? Does god only listen when you’re president? If we elect her president, will god all of a sudden start listening and manna will rain down upon us? Does god not listen to governors? While she was still in office, why didn’t she pray for divine intervention so that manna could fall on Alaskans? How does she know Obama doesn’t pray for divine intervention? How many people have to pray for divine intervention at one time in order for god to listen and magically change the world?
oh pleghh. She’s a lunatic.
Cloudesley Shovell: “Instead you come right out with the ad hominem, mocking Ms. Palin as some sub-human evolutionary throwback.
Replace Palin with Obama in what you wrote here and consider the tone in that light. ”
—Ad homonyms that indicate the exGov are sub-human are over the top and indicative of personal dislike. She has become, rightfully, the point-to example of everything wrong with the political process and some take it very personally.
On the merits: the exGov needs to write her 5 or six key concepts on her hand to remember them even while mocking the President for using a teleprompter. The President meanwhile fielded questions, often preceded by lengthy mis-characterizations of his policies and accomplishments, from the entire compliment of the Senate Republicans extemporaneously. And handed them their collective ass.
When the exGov is up to remembering and cogently stating her core policies and key points in an unscripted manner I’m sure the debate will turn from her as yet unrevealed intellect to the merits of her arguments.
Many public speakers will use cue cards, or put notes at the top of a page (or write it on their hand when in a setting where cue cards would be too obvious). This is not done in order to remember the items, but to remember to cover those items.
Going after Palin for writing key points on her hand so she’ll remember to talk about them, or for using the words “hopey, changey”, while not discussing anything about the merits of her message makes those doing so look petty.
What part of her message did you disagree with? And why?
Not a Palin fan to say the least but I don’t really get the political hay that everyone is making about the notes on her hand or cue cards or whatever it was? Am I missing something about how significant this is?
It sort of reminds me to a lesser extent to the ‘birthers’ nutty obsession with wanting to believe Obama was not born in the US… I don’t really get what people think they are accomplishing other than looking entirely cooky and over-the-top partisan by dwelling on rather meaningless things…
Duh,
“What part of her message did you disagree with? And why?”
All of it.
Because I have a brain and some familiarity with it’s use, common sense, a sense of history, familiarity with logic and analysis of facts through time, and something approaching passable retention skills, etc. I’m not going to refute, point by point, a series of simplistic statements that warrant nothing so much as dismissal as propaganda and lack of depth. Her answers were not policy oriented or detailed. It was fluff that boiled down to God and oil and too many/too much taxes. When she makes specific policy statements of sufficient detail to examine I will examine them.
Notes, I also would take notes during various meetings. OTOH, I never entered a room where I would have to take the floor that I couldn’t speak at length, without notes, and hit all the points I needed to make and take questions about them. I expect the politicians I am asked to vote for to be at least as competent as myself and pal, that’s not asking a lot. Not a lot at all
AJ–
It’s not a nutty obsession. As Professor Turley said–Palin is irresistible to watch. We’re just having a little political fun here. We aren’t like the “birthers.” We’re not demanding to see the results of Palin’s sanity evaluation.
Palin’s a caricature of a politician. She winked at the TV audience in her vice presidential debate. Her answers to interview questions are often meandering and incomprehensible. She didn’t know Africa was a continent. She thinks the US should declare war on Iran. Imagine her in negotiations with someone like Putin. The woman would be a train wreck as president of this country.
Then again, I suppose people like me shouldn’t make fun of a “real American” like Sarah Palin.
Does God float on Oil?
“She thinks the US should declare war on Iran. Imagine her in negotiations with someone like Putin.”
she would scare the shit out of both of them, she can field dress a moose, so a Putie and Dimwitajhad probably would take half the time. Granted you cant smoke ‘em and they probably dont jerk well.
People routinely complain that Sarah Palin is the victim of ad hominem attacks. While that is true, there is a reason for it beyond elitist condescension. It is simply that the woman has no ideas. None. I defy anyone to point to a single instance in which she has actually expressed an informed opinion on a public policy issue. There is no more to her than what we see. Facebook is a perfect platform for her public pronouncements precisely because she has nothing of substance to say. Her political life is a continuation of her pageant career. Stick with generalities, always smile and make certain that you evoke as much charm as possible to disarm potential critics. She provokes ad hominem attacks out of frustration. It is difficult, after all, to respond intelligently to banality clothed in “you betcha.”
Sound bites are all she knows. But it doesn’t matter because whatever happens is god’s will. If it’s in god’s plan for her to be president, then it will happen and it makes no difference whether she knows what she’s talking about or just keeps coasting along, winking, lying about things and taking hypocritical pot shots at people who have forgotten more than she will ever know.
Duh:
why do you support her?
Yes, she can read a speech (that someone else has written). We all know that. She also has a certain bizarre charisma. But I can’t believe people think she’s qualified for high office. She’d be a good television host. Maybe for a game show or something like that. Extreme Fishing, or Survivor Alaska.
Mike Appleton:
“Stick with generalities, always smile and make certain that you evoke as much charm as possible to disarm potential critics.”
To which public figure are you referring?
I think we can use that as an example of just about everyone in the congress, senate and White House.
Mike Appleton,
I’m not a big fan of Palin, but where were you when Obama ran on a platform of undefined “change”? That was as open and empty as anything Palin is talking about. Ambiguity is the politicians tool. They use it because the voting public is stupid enough to buy it. What’s worse, is that those same politicians garner more votes because of a letter behind their name than they do by anything else.
Can you name one thing that Obama ran on, that he has succesfully implimented?
Duh As long as the filibuster exists Obama will not be able to fulfill his campaign promises.
Swarthmore mom:
Thank God for Phillip E. Buster.
Byron I do not think so. This country is deteriorating because the Senate can’t pass needed legislation or fill vacancies. I know Wall Street loves a stalemate but Main Street does not.
Swarthmore mom:
I dont know, I like it when Washington, DC cant get anything done. It protects main street, he who governs least governs best in my book.
Why do you think government can do everything for everyone? Isnt individual responsibility inherent in living in a free society?
The funny part is that most middle class people (main street) are starting to rely on government for things like college tuition and other goodies. Only they wouldnt need government “handouts” if they could keep the majority of their money. Nothing like paying the master and him giving you an allowance.
Wall Street isnt the problem, it is K St and Pennsylvania Ave and Capitol Circle.
Wall St. is a distraction and would be fine if the other “Streets” were cleaned up.
Byron We have a philosophical difference. Bailouts for Wall Street were merely a distraction. I don’t thinks so. They were an awfully expensive distraction. We don’t need to debate this as we are too far apart on this.
Byron and Duh, if you want to talk about Pres. Obama, that’s good for a different discussion. I’m quite disappointed over a number of things about this administration, but comparing him substantively to Sarah Palin is frankly ridiculous. He has also been hamstrung by a lot of cowardly Democrats and a Republican leadership that prefers gridlock, apparently in line with Byron’s preferences. I do not find her comments to be studiedly ambiguous. I believe she reached the level of her competence upon election as mayor of Wasilla. If we’re to be satisfied with fluff, we might as well elect Miss South Carolina. The truth is that I do not believe that Sarah Palin could conduct a sustained conversation on a single topic with any blogger on this site. Furthermore, we hardly need another president who believes that he/she has been anointed by God to hold the position.
Mike A:
I was not comparing him with Sarah Palin at all. I was merely poiting out that your statement – “Stick with generalities, always smile and make certain that you evoke as much charm as possible to disarm potential critics.”- could apply to any politician. The comparison is yours.
Byron, I should have been clearer. I was referring to Duh’s comments about the Obama campaign.
Swarthmore mom:
“Bailouts for Wall Street were merely a distraction. I don’t thinks so. They were an awfully expensive distraction.”
I don’t know many right thinking conservatives that thought bailing out Wall St. was a good idea. It was a very bad idea and we will pay for that decision for years to come. Henry Paulson and Alan Greenspan are financial hacks at least and actual criminals at best who should be in jail for malfeasance in office. They scammed the American public every bit as much as Bernie Madoff scammed his clients.
I don’t know if they did it to bail out their buddies but it is high on my list of possibilities.
Byron You said, “Wall Street isn’t the problem.” Obviously they were as they brought down the whole economy.
Many things brought down the economy. In my opinion, it was the repeal of the final limitations put in place by the Glass-Stegal Act. We have a Republican controlled Congress, and a Democrat President to blame for that.
The bailouts were objected to by pretty much everyone except those in Washington. We need to clean house. The only problem is, everybody is so interested in keeping their piece of control that they aren’t willing to kick the incumbents out on the street.
Duh,
I read what you had to say on the way home and I am surprised that there is something else that you and I agree upon.
So am I.
I am sure, bdaman how do you do this evening? I was in town most of the day.
What town was that
AY,
You might be surprised to learn that there are far more things we would agree on than those in which we disagree.
Big D, down about 6 different hwys.
Ya never know. Duh
Hey maybe you can tell me
Tell you what bdaman….
Who shot J R
Sue
Why cant you just tell me, I don’t want to sue anybody.
Sue Ewing, but the who played at the super bowl last night.
I know Payton was on one team and Manning was on the other.
That would be true Eli was a Giant that did not slew many.
To Anonymously Yours,
I think you read my question too fast.
I asked: “Have the Repubs ever nominated for president the UNsuccessful
VP candidate of the previous election?”
You ventured Nixon. But Nixon was nominated for president in 1960 after having been the VP for the previous eight years and in ’68 having been in “political retirement” in 1964.
Yup, it’s all in fun and games if you’re listening to Palin…. but then you realize a big chunk of the stupid that make up our ‘idiocracy’ is actually taking all this perfectly serious, and agrees!
It’s time we split America, put the ‘real’ America somewhere Texas, the ‘fake’ America somewhere in New York, and if they finally, the f*, stop bickering I’ll start believing in devine intervention.
“The earth was not created by a supreme being, these are results you can only expect from an office temp with a bad attitude..” – Carlin, in short.
No it wasn’t Sue (Ellen). It was her sister, Kristen.
Bob Dole was unsuccessful VP with Gerald Ford (1976) then nominated for President in 1996.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Republican_Party_presidential_tickets
Democrats have two, F.D.Roosevelt (1920) (1932)
and Walter Mondale (1980) (1984)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Democratic_Party_presidential_tickets
Whether this argues for optimism or only persistence on the part of Democrats, I don’t know.
It was Patrick Duffy with a Crab.
Palin & The Crab 2012 – Puppets You Can Believe In!
Ah ha, the Empire strikes back. Yes, you were correct. Wasn’t she Pregnant with JR’s child? You see Oklahoma was going to all women this right.
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/04/05/protecting-life-or-license-to-kill-oklahoma-moves-to-give-pregnant-women-enhanced-rights-to-use-lethal-force/
Good Morning Ecookie, the Flirt of the day is……
Morning fellas – here’s some more of that teabagger convention:
http://washingtonindependent.com/75949/birther-speaker-takes-heat-at-tea-party-convention
empire cookie,
Sarah will be here in Texas once again to campaign for her champion Rick Perry. What is interesting in this mix is Bush has endorsed Kay Bailey. I wonder if the rocking R can get it back before the election. Heck, maybe Cheney will even take Sarah hunting. Many of an in-law has been shot accidentally. Things just happen.
Empirecookie, I thought the science was settled.
Swarthmore mom and others:
here is an interesting article on the 2008 recession:
http://fee.org/doc/the-house-that-uncle-sam-built/
Byron,
Hey look, a false dichotomy: “Why do you think government can do everything for everyone? Isnt individual responsibility inherent in living in a free society?”
Ones and zeros are great for programing, terrible for thinking.
Also, you do realize that a large chunk of K street works for Wall-street right?
AY – we can always dream. Maybe JR wasn’t shot, only tasered. What do you think?
“You offer it to me freely?
I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired this….in the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn!
Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!”
Gyges:
did I not say that if K St, Pennsylvania Ave. and Capitol Circle were cleaned up then Wall St. will not be a problem?
Please explain how my statement is a false dichotomy.
Byron–
“did I not say that if K St, Pennsylvania Ave. and Capitol Circle were cleaned up then Wall St. will not be a problem?”
**********
Do you think it would follow that the people working on Wall Street would be less greedy then?
Byron,
I’m about to say something terrible about you, so apologies upfront.
You are both an optimist and an idealist.
There.
I’ve said it.
I know, I know. Harsh words.
But when I read your posts there are consistent blind spot in your analysis that the more I see, the more I see a pattern. And that pattern is optimism. You seem to operate under the premise that all things being equal people will usually try to do good. While an admirable aspiration, I don’t think your optimism is well placed if that is the case. This is in part where your reliance upon the ideal of rational self-interest comes from too. Gyges point is straight on in this respect. Binary distinction are great for programming (or engineering) but not so valuable when dealing with human nature. People are messy as a rule. You are optimistic that most people are good and that this innate goodness will lead them to have rational self interests that comport to the good of society. History shows this simply not to be the case. If anything, humanity’s capacity for capricious cruelty outweighs our capacity for compassion. Part and parcel of the proper function of law is to protect society from harms possible in our nature be they issued from the barrel of a gun or the point of a pen.
Humans can be wonderfully civilized, but are more often not.
Think of the cruelest most evil thing you can do to another human being.
Now know that somewhere out there is someone bent on doing something to somebody, today, that is a thousand times worse. And for no other rational reason than they can.
I hope that people are basically good. I am not operating under the illusion that they are. Experience tells me otherwise. If anything, people tend to be watery creatures that tend to take the paths of least resistance and good and/or bad kind of shakes itself out along the way. Rarely is a person the polar example of either behavior, but usually a little of both. Consider that there is more to the yin-yang symbol than black and white. The shape also conveys that they are interacting (the “tears”), within each other (the spots) and still one (the containing circle).
Your optimism is admirable, but it often keeps you from seeing how dangerous a tool the legal fiction of corporations (a shield against liability) really is in the wrong hands.
Buddah’s case in point
http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2010/02/08/what-would-you-do-to-this-dirtbag/#video
Ecookie,
Maybe it will be Hanges her way and JR does BVD. One would not want to be too brief.
Byron,
The underlying implication of those two questions was that the concept of government and personal responsibility are opposites and inherently incompatible. Imagine I asked you “Why do you believe that government can’t solve any problems? Aren’t laws inherent in living in a civilized society?”
As for the K\Wall street, let’s just put it this way: You hire an advertising firm, you get a commercial that shows your company designing concentration camps in Nazi Germany followed by a voice saying “You Know the Germans Make Good Stuff,” and decide to put it on T.V.
Now, were bad decisions made by you, the advertising firm, or both? Elements of both streets are part of the problem, but neither of the two is THE problem.
The actual quote I mangled earlier is “For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.”
Bdaman,
That is not even close to the depravity people are capable of nor is it representative of the matter at hand. That link is about a self-defense issue, not about the legitimacy of law regulating commerce and corporations. While the character in the video is most certainly not Mr. Sociable, I submit that it is his actions – not state charter and failure to regulate – that cause him to be a danger to others. Apples and oranges.
Elaine M:
“Do you think it would follow that the people working on Wall Street would be less greedy then?”
What is greed? If I make my company and my stockholders billions of dollars am I not entitled to an appropriate remuneration? Is 2% too much or 5% or 10% or 1%. If my contract says I am to receive 6% of after tax profits am I greedy if I want to be paid per my contract (a legal document)?
Have I not provided a benefit to society? In fact that really isn’t even a good argument. Benefits to society are a tangential benefit to people pursuing their rational self interest. The Declaration of Independence tells us we can pursue happiness and that we have a right to our life and liberty.
I would posit that if you are against “greed” you are against the fundamental philosophy on which our country was founded.
People in Africa would say a teacher’s salary is an astronomical sum and that you are “greedy”. Most in Africa probably make less than a $1000/year. Does your teachers salary “take” from them?
If Bill Gates makes 1 billion dollars a year it does not take away from John Smith. Bill Gates and others like him expand the pie for the rest of us, they do not make the pie smaller.
The problem is not individuals in pursuit of their dreams or ambitions it is government trying to restrain those individuals that can see a little farther and are willing to pay the price to reach the far horizon of human potential. For that they should be compensated. They also offer the rest of us a road map if we are willing to read and learn and they provide a pleasant journey filled with comfort and abundance.
“Greedy”, I sure as hell hope they are.
Gyges:
I still don’t see how I have created a false dichotomy.
If you live in a free society you need to be responsible. To me a free society implies that citizens have certain responsibilities. They must take care of themselves for one.
So I need it spelled out a little better, I don’t think your Nazi commercial is “german” to this.
Byron Greed is one of the seven deadly sins. Don’t you remember the robber barons?
swartmore mom,
it is? I thought they were named
1. Sneezy
2. Sleepy
3. Dopey
4. Doc
5. Happy
6. Bashful
7. Grumpy.
Wow, the things you learn here.
ECookie,
The Fixed news, did I dream this, that beck fell for something out of fixed news and was sidelined because of it? Well many Nancy did the line. But he still did not check his facts….
Byron–
That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the kinds of things that were done to make a few people big money at the expense of millions of others…resulting in the loss of life savings and pensions for many people. I was thinking of things like Credit Default Swaps and subprime mortgages that were chopped up and and then bundled up as mortgage-backed securities. I was thinking of people like Joseph Cassano of AIG–who walked away with about three hundred million dollars.
I’m not talking about people like Bill Gates. He doesn’t work on Wall Street, does he?
Swarthmore mom:
and look at what they gave us:
Steel
Financial markets
Cars
Trans-Atlantic steamships
Rail Roads
Chemicals
and a bunch of tangential goods and services to support them.
As I said above I hope they are “greedy” as hell.
I also don’t believe man has original sin or that he is evil or a low and vile creature.
Byron–
I believe that SOME men and women are vile creatures.
Elaine:
those instruments that you mentioned, all acceptable to Washington regulators and if memory serves me invented because of government regulations.
The principles that I mentioned above apply to Wall Street as well.
Elaine:
they become that way because of government regulations.
I agree some are, part and parcel of being human but the majority are good decent people.
Byron It has nothing to do with original sin. It is just a guideline for keeping greed in check so that you don’t harm your fellow human beings. Excessive greed sent Madoff to prison.
Maybe if the Glass-Steagall act hadn’t been repealed, things wouldn’t have gotten so bad.
Are you implying that it’s the government fault that people do/did greedy things and rip/ripped off millions of people?
A Wall Streeter’s fairy tale: Once upon a time, I was unselfish and generous. The government cast a spell upon me and made me into a greedy pig…and I lived happily and wealthily ever after.
Byron–
I didn’t see your comment at 5:06 pm before posting my last comment.
@ Elain M. – All points I agree with whole-heartedly. I wish she would go away honestly… I actually feel the same way about Obama too. Having said that, who cares if he reads from a teleprompter or she writes notes on her hand? My personal experience in public speaking and giving anything more than a quick address is that I need personally need some notes to keep me on track to my points. When did that become taboo?
Buddah
Humans can be wonderfully civilized, but are more often not.
Think of the cruelest most evil thing you can do to another human being.
I had just watched the video and when I came across your comment it just stuck out, thats all. Nothing more, nothing less.
Byron, you haven’t asked for my opinion on this, so I’m giving it. The regulation of corporate activities is merely an extension of the restrictions we place on individual activities. For some reason capitalists insist that we treat entities as something special, as though the evils that we visit upon each other as individuals are somehow eliminated if we act corporately. The truth is that corporate wrongs are ultimately more dangerous to society as a whole than individual wrongs for at least two reasons. First, they are cloaked in anonymity. Second, they directly affect far more people. The trend during the last half of the 20th century was to gradually immunize corporations and their officers and directors from various forms of liability in the interest of promoting investment and growth. The result has been the development of behemoths almost beyond the reach of government control and a tremendous increase in the concentration of wealth. This trend is not healthy because it eventually destabilizes social structures at the very least. My view is that the pendulum needs to swing in the opposite direction.
Byron,
I guess it depends on how you define being responsible for yourself. Does the guy that needs the justice system to gather evidence against, try, and (hopefully) convict the guy who robbed his house while he was out sacrifice any sense individual responsibility, what about the person who relies on the government to build\maintain\police roads so he can transport his farm’s produce? That is what your rhetoric implies when applied to those situations.
About the streets, you’re saying that the problem is K street, who are just employees doing what their employer wants. You have to blame the employer for having ethically bankrupt policies as well as the employee who follows them.
Gyges:
I said K St, Pennsylvania Ave and Capitol Cr.. Basically government is out of control and is being corrupted by money from K St. through corporations and other entities.
How do your examples relate to personal responsibility? The government has a duty to protect people against force by others. The interstate highway system was developed for that purpose. That it is also used for commerce is an additional benefit.
I still am at a loss to understand your claim of a false dichotomy.
Here’s an excerpt from last night’s Hardball segment in which Chris Matthews discusses Sarah Palin with his two guests.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/
Mike A:
I personally think corporations rely to heavily upon government. In my mind it is nothing more than fascism. If the executives of a corporation engage in criminal activities then they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
As far a corporations concentrating wealth, I don’t think that is necessarily true. Granted there are wealthy men and women in the world but they are wealthy (assuming they did not inherit wealth) because they created wealth for others as well. Bill Gates has made many people very wealthy. Henry Ford and John D. Rockefeller did the same, as did Cornelius Vanderbilt and all of the other “Robber Barons” and current men and women who take risk to bring products and services to market.
If some people are not allowed to concentrate wealth and capital then the rest of us are S.O.L. I think the former Soviet Union is a good example, there was no concentration of wealth in the private sector.
What communists and socialists fail to realize is that without reward people will not take necessary risks. Risk without reward is depending on some religious like sacrifice on the part of men and women of ability to bring goods and services to market. Humans are not puppy dogs who want to please their masters, and this is what communists and socialists fail to realize. Or they do realize it and so they must use force to change peoples behaviour.