The Obama Administration is facing another challenge to the national health care law. With over half of the states opposing the law in the federal courts, including the pending case before the Supreme Court, the University of Notre Dame, the Archdiocese of New York and 41 other Roman Catholic institutions have sued over the requirement that employers cover contraception in workers’ health plans.
Section 2713 of the Public Health Service Act, enacted by the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Public Law 111-148) provides:
“A group health plan and a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage shall, at a minimum provide coverage for and shall not impose any cost sharing requirements for— . . . (4) with respect to women, such additional preventive care and screenings . . . as provided for in comprehensive guidelines supported by the Health Resources and Services Administration . . . .”
The referenced regulations then require “All Food and Drug Administration approved contraceptive methods, sterilization procedures, and patient education and counseling for all women with reproductive capacity.”
Those provisions, the plaintiffs argue, conflict with deeply held religious beliefs and practices.
The lawsuit raises an interesting question of where to draw the line between religious services and more secular activities by religious institutions. While a church is protected by the free exercise clause, it is also part of a large non-for-profit corporation. In the case of the Catholic Church it is a major employer and the operator of a host of different activities.
The lawsuit by Notre Dame states that “[t]he government…cannot justify its decision to force Notre Dame to provide, pay for, and/or facilitate access to these services in violation of its sincerely held religious beliefs. If the government can force religious institutions to violate their beliefs in such a manner, there is no apparent limit to the government’s power.” That is far from evident. Existing case law would in my view support the Administration in mandating a generally applicable rule on this kind. The courts have been admittedly reluctant to draw lines between protected religious activities and non-protected activities of religious institutions. However, the slippery slope argument may go the other way: if the government cannot require this type of insurance coverage what would such a holding mean for the future of regulations in the health care and other areas. The Senate previously split 51-48 on getting rid of the contraception requirement and the lawsuit is likely to result in further erosion of support for Obama among Catholics.
One of the most difficult hurdles for the plaintiffs is the decision in Employment Division v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990), where the Supreme Court ruled that a state could deny unemployment benefits to a person terminated for using of peyote. That decision was written by one of the justices that the Plaintiffs are likely most counting on in an eventual argument before the Supreme Court — Justice Scalia. Scalia upheld the law as a “neutral law of general applicability.” Notably, he relied on the very inverse slippery slope argument above: “To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself.” The Court drew the distinction between laws prohibiting physical acts of worship and such neutral rules. The case does not rule out a possible ruling in favor of these plaintiffs, but it (and other cases) give the advantage to the government.
Clearly, the plaintiffs have the advantage of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (“RFRA”), which imposes a heavy burden on the government when they can show that a regulation substantially burdens their exercise of religion, even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability. However, there remains the question of substantial burden and the possibility that the government can show a compelling interest in light of the slippery slope danger. There are thousands of different religious organizations in this country with countless religious practices and values that might become the basis for claimed exceptions. Such a ruling would have sweeping implications for state and federal regulations across the country.
Here is a copy of the complaint: complaint-final
Source: Wall Street Journal
This church is becoming more and more a disgrace. C.f.the Bishops.
Should this church (all churches?) lose the tax exemption since they do more and more lobbying directed to their financial advantage?
The Catholic Church is actually litigating against the best interests of its members. If this lawsuit is successful, then we will have the American equivalent of the Taliban here.
Institutions have religious beliefs? I don’t think so. Since institutions don’t have religious beliefs, they lack standing.
The Catholic Church is openly supporting Romney and the republican party, and I will protest by not attending and voting a straight democratic ticket.
the church cant have it both ways. If they want to take federal and state funds to run their hospitals, then they cant deny their employees contraception, and dying women tubal ligations. If they want a biblical basis for practicing medicine and administering employee benefits they can do so without taxpayer money. We were wrong to assume that religious institutions could deliver publicly funded health care without bias.
krissy, They don’t care that much about the bible. They care more about encyclicals.
I have mixed feelings about this lawsuit. First, I’m male, so the issue of women’s rights is really not something I should be commenting on in the first place (unless and until they impede my rights, which I can’t really see happening anyway). Secondly, I was unaware of the case law mentioned, but I don’t see how this could apply, except as an indication of the court’s potential attitude. The issues are only tangentially related as far as I can see. While both concern issues of religion, they don’t really concern issues of State v. Religion, as it’s an employment related law, and the institution that terminated the employee was not a religious institution. If women don’t like the catholic position on contraception, they are more than free to find work elsewhere, just as a person who’s peyote use is part of their religion is free to find employment somewhere else, and there should be a solution short of having the government impose contraception on the providers against their strict religious beliefs. On the flip side, it’s not like the government is requiring them to:
A) Provide health care in the first place.
B) Force women to use contraception.
C) Make the employers pay for it, unless the employer is underwriting the coverage.
So it should be interesting to see how it plays out. I personally don’t have a stake in the issue, and I don’t actually care one way or the other. As far as contraception needed for medical purposes aside from direct contraception, the church is being more than unreasonable IMHO. Even LDS and Islamic cultures permit otherwise verboten substances to be used for medical purposes.
RE David L. Anderson- Should all not-for-profits, including secular, lose their tax exempt status because they also lobby for their financial gain? The catholic church is hardly alone in their lobbying.
It is right for the Catholic Church to respect life. That much I can say for the catholic Church. The thing of it is the Church,and state are in spirit the same. For Obama to want to make the ending or the preventing of life easy is the same as waring wanting to prevent life. Using the scalpel on a dog does not kill the dog, but it prevents life from occurring. . The intent of the Catholic Church is to not prevent life from occurring. Obama intent is to make it easier for life to not occur. Obama needs to back off, and respect the free will of the humans in the Catholic Church.
rafflaw- That’s a bit hateful. Full disclosure time- I’m not a christian, or mormon, or muslim. I’m not religious at all. But to equate the catholic church in the US with the Taliban? Spoken like an ivory tower elitist snob who’s never going to have to face the consequences of the next bombing attack by the Taliban. Or have the Taliban force you to wear a hajib. Or kill you in the name of honor. You equate contraception with murder and rape and the killing of innocent people? You disgust me. rafflaw, you are way more intelligent than that comment suggested, please don’t say things like that. Rest of full disclosure- I’ve killed, and been part of teams and operations that have killed, a great many Taliban. I don’t like them. At all.
Don’t worry, Scalia will do as his church commands and disregard his own words and precedent. He has NO principles that are sacred other than making law to suit hmself and his prejudices.
Sorry for the comment breaks- my internet is going in and out. RE Krissy- I agree. If you receive government money, you play by government rules. Don’t like it? Don’t take government money. I do not consider tax break receiving government money, but as far as other subsidies, such as anything through grants for education or for Medicare/Medicaid, you either spurn the money, or follow the rules. There is nothing mandating that they have to accept the government funds.
If the Catholic Church is so concerned about l birth control, why don’t they prohibit viagra and other similar drugs? Also, they don’t seem to be too concerned about the life after it comes out of the womb which is also true for many Christians who oppose artifical birth control and abortion under any circumstance.
Joe
Can’t understand too much of this new topic. I just want a priest to give me Last Rites in a hospital real fast, should I need it. If the Catholic hospitals
disappear the remaining secular hospitals will slowly siphon religion out of their hospitals.
CLH, re: Taliban. I remember when Catholic nuns wore black habit from top of the head to their black shoes with white thingies around their faces. I don’t see that so much any more. I guess in the interests of modernization to the 19th century. The all male-hierarchy of the church still dictates far too much to women, e.g. that they should bear as many children as they can. Most Catholics (in the US at least) use birth control. They need to move to the 21st, or at least the 20th century. Btw, the nuns support the health care plan http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/18/nation/la-na-healthcare-nuns18-2010mar18
As I understand it, the law cannot exempt just one specific organization (that was apparent when they tried to legislate against Acorn), so there would be general exception. The slippery slope are the other employers deciding that they have a religious objection to various parts of the insurance as well.
As employers of many people, Catholic and non-Catholic, the provisions of the law should prevail.
slope is
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0419/Vatican-nun-crackdown-hits-US-group-for-radical-feminist-ideas Support the nuns in their struggle against the pope and the bishops.
JH “Obama needs to back off, and respect the free will of the humans in the Catholic Church.”
Then the Catholics need to stop taking money from Obama. they can do as they wish on their own dime.
What about the free will of women who need these drugs to stay healthy?
All this over something (god) which no one has yet proven to even exist. So anyone can form an institution based on virtually nothing, and as long as enough people believe, its interests can trump all? What a coup! Would be laughable if not for the incredible damage religion inflicts.
Tax breaks are government money. When you get a tax break the money I pay in taxes subsidizes your activities. In the Catholic Church’s situation however they take billions of tax payer dollars –government Money to run their hospitals schools and oThe allegedly charitable facilities. they take all kinds of government money they should follow the rules. As to the law suit each of us is probably paying for it through our tax dollars. Churches should be funded by ther parishioners; if that does not work then they should go out of business.
I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure Scalia will draw a distinction between someone using Peyote and someone refusing to sterilize a woman.
CLH,
Interesting response. In one sentence you say I disgust you and in another sentence you claim I am too intelligent to speak my mind. The Taliban control every civil agency along with being the only religion allowed. The Catholic Church is making every attempt to make the country follow their beliefs on contraception. As to the killing of people, the RCC in America is responsible for abusing children and hiding the facts and perps from the police. The RCC restricts women almost as much as the Taliban does. You go on to say in another posting that you don’t consider the tax free status of the RCC as getting government money? Are you kidding? so if a tax break saves the Church millions in taxes, that isn’t a benefit? I do not have the experience killing anyone, but I see that as a benefit. I honor everyone whos has served our country, but I don’t have to honor a Church who is doing everything in its power to hold women down and to prevent them from the health care they need. All under the label of religion.
This ivory tower elitist snob will continue to provide my opinion on any subject, no matter if it upsets you. I don’t have to worry about being forced to wear a hajib, but neither do you. The Truth does hurt sometimes.
Swarthmore mom,
Great link to the nuns who are being abused by the RCC.
It could be that the Catholic Church wants to abstain from prompting drugs of any kind.. That is a good thing. I recommend good spinal care http://www.upcspine.com. Now all ages,and I mean all ages.
The Religions don’t teach the truth about Hell or the devil as being just two lies. Have humans believe them sets up a lot of humans to be deceived by the devil showing up not looking like he is depicted.In religions. That would deceve a lot of humans no matter how many were alive. How can humans learn the truth where it is not being spoken?
Jonathon,
The RCC is only against drugs and treatments that benefit women’s health so, no, they are not trying to get members to abstain from drugs of any kind.
“[Churches] are people, my friend!” – - Willard Mitt Romney
CLH,
As someone who publicly boasts of killing — and assisting in the killing — of foreign persons whom you “don’t like,” you make a rather poor spokesperson against “hatefulness.” I knew a lot of guys like you in Vietnam. Real self-styled killers of peasants their government had ordered them not to like. They didn’t like anyone with yellow skin who spoke Vietnamese, which they didn’t understand. Hell, many of them didn’t even understand English all that well. I still remember the day in early 1971 when our local SEAL team went charging up a canal in a canoe — straight into an ambush by yellow men who spoke Vietnamese and didn’t like white American military goons invading, occupying and destroying their country. A lot of dead SEALs that day. Nothing much seems to have changed, since I read in the news the other day where a team of our JSOC “advisors” — whose boots have not yet officially touched the ground — had just run into an ambush in Yemen and gotten shot up as a result. Just the way we started and ended in Vietnam. If the American people only knew how often this sort of thing happens. No wonder the American government can only operate in the dark of night. Its imperial activities and blunders simply can’t stand the light of day.
Anyway, when the Afghan Taliban start conducting night raids against American homes in Kansas for having in them men “of military age” then perhaps you’ll have a reason not to like them enough to kill them. Until then, please spare us the Rambo chest thumping bravado. You sound like nothing more than a common murderer for hire — and probably cheaply, too. The Afghans will live the way the Afghans want to live. You have nothing to say in the matter.
Drugs, and treatment to benefit woman sounds externally to be very good, but I know better. It seems the Catholic Church knows better too.They however do not Know what I know about the practitioners on upcspine, but should know of them. The kind of preventative care I speak of can make the other so called care obsolete.
Drugs to me are bad period. The Kind of care I talk about stands. Being checked is wise by all no matter how they think they feel.
The human is the temple, but the building has been emphasized. Lies a plenty have been spoken there. .I know all of them able to back them up with Scripture.KJV.
If the overwhelming majority of Catholic women practice some form of birth control, then that indicates either a deeply held belief in birth control or a shallowly held belief in what the Catholic Church tells women to believe. Not a good sign for the future health and relevance of the Catholic Church.
If only the hierarchy of the Catholic Church lived by a deeply held belief that priests shouldn’t bugger altar boys — or at least not so often.
The Catholic Church speaks through its Priests. The Priests relate what they think is in divine scripture. The flock listens or fails to listen at their peril and hence go to Hell. The flock is out of the pasture. The flock uses birth control and porks out of wedlock. The Priests pork little children. The little children need to become adults, return to the pasture, get revenge on the pediphile priests, and practice birth control so that there are not too many of these deranged Catholics in the future. Meanwhile let them take in cats, not dogs.
What about the religious freedom of hospital employees? Because the hospital is nominally Catholic, in spite of having thousands of employees of any or no religion, every employee is supposed to follow the strictest of Catholic teaching?
As for being free to find employment elsewhere, there are communities in which most or all local hospitals are church owned. We’re not supposed to work at all?
What Michael Murry said. The RCC is steering right in a futile attempt to hold on to the few Catholics still listening and donating.
Let’s sue the church, so that it is forced to reveal all of the child-molesters it is protecting, so that they may be prosecuted and jailed.
The strictest of Catholic teaching.That sounds like the religions Jesus faced with the scribes, Pharisees, high priest, and Sadducees. Legal system also has what is known as the strictest laws too. In spirit they are the same. Church, and state are not as separate as you think.
Don’t do the same thing the Catholic Church does. They persecute zoosexuals for example. To want to persecute the Catholic for their sexuality is not the right thing to do.That would be as bad as they are persecuting whoever else.
For your reading pleasure:
http://www.businessinsider.com/catholic-churchs-chief-exorcist-priest-says-missing-girl-kidnapped-for-vatican-sex-parties-2012-5?utm_source=sailthrusuggest&utm_medium=rightrail&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=recirc
“Those provisions, the plaintiffs argue, conflict with deeply held religious beliefs and practices.”
I think the above should read: “Those provisions, the plaintiffs argue, conflict with deeply held religious beliefs and practices–and SEXISM.
I read the Complaint filed by the assorted organizations consisting of some 70 plus pages and 412 plus numbered paragraphs. There is not one single person, Catolic or otherwise, who has joined in the Complaint and hence not one person asserts that any of the managerie of rights were violated. This Complaint is not a clear and precise statement of the claims which are vaguely alleged. Not one person is named as a plaintiff who claims that he/she works for some Catolic employer and he/she does not want to wear a rubber or swallow a birth control pill. The First Amendment respects the rights of persons, not the rights of organizations who purport to speak for persons. Nowhere is it alleged that any of the plaintiffs are suppressed in their right to speak or preach. No person is named as a plaintiff who says that he/she was denied right to religion, access to religtion–indeed no persons are named in the suit. Yet the religious organizations want to speak for people. They failed to name God as a party or even God spelled backwards.
The lawsuit is in a way analogous to the reasoning in Citizens United. A corporate entity, a church or church school, has First Amendment rights like a person. Yet in America a corporation is only accountable to its shareholders to turn a profit and is not accountable for its spoken word. Take the tenet of the church that God created the Earth in seven days or whatever that mantra is. Or that Muslims are not Christians and do not get to have health care. Or that on the eighth day God created Dog. What if I am an employee of that church and I want to get my teeth taken care of and the church says that my dog’s teeth come first? That church dogma would take precedence over a human.
Why cant the plaintiffs include a person here in this lawsuit instead of these corporate United Citizens with a cross types?
“The church leaders headed to court hope to undermine the president, but they may help him. Voters who think sex is only for procreation were not going to vote for Obama anyway. And the lawsuit reminds the rest that what the bishops portray as an attack on religion by the president is really an attack on women by the bishops.” Maureen Dowd, NYT
Kidnapers will be judged by God. It will not be fun for them.
religious freedom should never ever trump the law. Period. If your religion says contraceptives are evil and the law says you must pay for it then you must pay for it.
If your religion says all medicine is evil and only prayers are allowed to cure people, then you must still provide insurance if the law mandates it.
If your religion says people who are disabled are being punished by god and accommodating them is a sin you will still have to accommodate them
If your religion says human sacrifices are the proper method to atone for losing an account than again, you must risk pissing off your god.
If your religion mandates that women should be topless at all times, well sometimes the law must learn to bend.
WE are to pray without ceasing./prayer is a state of mind that helps us live peaceably with all me. Not Hey Lord give me whatever. The practitioners on http://www.upcspine.com, all ages now. Each human born loving like Jesus loves has a chance fore eternal joy.The only being happy to rob them of that is the devil = death. God is equal give joy get joy give jail time get jail time no matter who gives it for whatever presumed reason. Give death,and call it good,and God will reward whoever like wise. I tell you the truth. The Legal system is creating many to be outside the city of God making the lake of fire larger.
WE are to pray without ceasing./prayer is a state of mind that helps us live peaceably with all me. Not Hey Lord give me whatever. The practitioners on http://www.upcspine.com, all ages now. Each human born loving like Jesus loves has a chance for eternal joy. The only being happy to rob them of that is the devil = death. God is equal give joy get joy give jail time get jail time no matter who gives it for whatever presumed reason. Give death, and call it good, and God will reward whoever like wise. I tell you the truth. The Legal system is creating many to be outside the city of God making the lake of fire larger.
JH Prove that I am going to a Lake of Fire.
Prove that GOD himself is making this Lake of Fire bigger, I want to see the construction receipts Hiring a bulldozer that is fire proof must be very expensive.
JH,
I pray that we will quickly turn to a single payer system of health care. And Catholics will be included.
Shano, good luck on that proof thingie!
We all have heard lawyer jokes, right? Well it’s not fair to Professor Turley and Rafflaw and Mespo and Gene H and…some others, so I’m now going to tell an Engineer Joke.
An Engineer died and ended up at the pearly gates. He was one of those engineer-managers who had gotten used to telling everyone else what was wrong with their system and how he could improve it. Anyway, he ended up in Purgatory going from one level to another and so forth. On the first day he was in the fourth circle and he told the mini-devil in charge that he needed to see Satan about something. The mini-devil liked that idea (let them get a taste of THAT!) so he escorted him to Satan. The engineer told Satan, “You know, you’ve got all these different circles, and the damned are getting all jammed up in between circles, and they’re not spending the right amount of time in any one circle they’re damned to, and it’s completely inconvenient.” Satan was taken aback, never heard THAT complaint before. He said, “What do you want to do about it?” The engineer said, “I can build you an escalator system.” Satan said, “Go ahead,” and the engineer did. A few days later, he asked to see Satan again, and he got an audience. He said, “You know, the Seventh Circle is warming up the ice floes so nothing works right.” Satan said, “What are you going to do about that?” The Engineer said, “I’ll install a ventilation system.” So he did. A few days later, he was back up there, “Satan, you know the screams of the damned aren’t even reaching the sinners on earth so your system is not getting much exposure.” What could he do about THAT? You guessed it, he installed amplifiers and so forth. Finally, God was getting word that there were all kinds of improvements downstairs, and he decided he’d just pull this Engineer up there to work on improvements in Heaven, where it could do some good. So he notified Satan he was transferring the Engineer upstairs. Satan stopped him: “God, you know our deal cannot be broken and no modifications can be put in after the fact.” God did know that, of course, being all-knowing. But he said, “Well, I am going to break the contract this time.” Satan laughed out loud: “You can’t! Where are you going to find a lawyer?”
Each human paying will leaves out a large number of humans that can’t pay. Asking for proof of the Upper cervical specific care is able to help and prevent symtomes helping humans means there is not a good spirit in you casting doubt in your head. When I say all need it I mean it All ages now is best. upcspine.
Each human paying will leaves out a large number of humans that can’t pay. Asking for proof of the Upper cervical specific care to be able to help and prevent symtomes helping humans means there is not a good spirit in you casting doubt in your head. When I say all need it I mean it All ages now is best. upcspine.
Nice joke. Problem is from my research hell is not a place. Heaven is Jesus in you .Meaning hell, and heaven are not a place. Hell is Gods light seen to the human that kills or hates not being like Jesus is like it was fire. KJV, 1 John 1;5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light. Heb; 12:29;For our God is a consuming fire. James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, Hell is the face of God Moses could not look into or become ashes. That is why theredeemedf are changed in a twinkling of an eye when Jesus comes back.
Nice joke. Problem is from my research hell is not a place. Heaven is Jesus in you .Meaning hell, and heaven are not a place. Hell is Gods light seen to the human that kills or hates not being like Jesus is like it was fire. KJV, 1 John 1;5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light. Heb; 12:29;For our God is a consuming fire. James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, Hell is the face of God Moses could not look into or become ashes. That is why the redeemed are changed in a twinkling of an eye when Jesus comes back.
Hilarious Malisha..I think!
Michael- I’m not a thug for hire. Or a Rambo. The only reason I brought up the fact that I have fought Taliban was to acknowledge that I’m hardly the most objective person on the planet. I was actually mainly a field tech in support of spec ops, though I ended up in more than my share of engagements. And guess what? Not one of my bullets, or any bullet from any unit I was ever attached to, was ever targeted at women and children, and I took extreme care, even at risk to myself and other members of my unit, to keep non combatants out of harm’s way. Not once in four years of combat operations did I or any member of my unit plant a bomb at a school, or throw acid on women’s faces, or force lawyers to wear muzzles. (Not claiming all troops are saints- god knows they aren’t, and a few of them are downright sick). And I don’t hate the Taliban for their skin color, or religion, only their actions. You’re attributing motives I never had. In fact, I’ve argued against the invasions from the get-go, of both Afghanistan and Iraq, as overly broad responses to the actions of a few. However, it was the Taliban who allowed and supported Bin Laden’s operation from their country. It was the Taliban who espoused a version of asymmetrical warfare that includes the targeting of women for death and mutilation, of bombs for children, of murdering their own citizens simply to make a point. If we want to take a historical perspective- Vietnam, for example- the actions of the North Vietnamese were far, far more horrific than anything the US did. It’s not a matter of liking the violence or the killing for most people- it’s a matter of being a fucked up kid in a fucked up world, following fucked up orders. The psyche develops the hateful mentality as a defense mechanism against insanity. You say “when they come into your home and attack you for being of military age.” So the only requirement for hate is actions taken directly against you? Or perhaps the only requirement for hate is that if I’m not the one being fitted for a hajib, I have no reason to despise someone who does perpetrate such acts? So you are someone who would watch a child being murdered and do nothing? Not even have an emotion regarding those acts? The old saw, “The only thing needed for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing” would seem to come into play here.
rafflaw compares the catholic church with the Taliban. And yes, the catholic church has plenty of history of abuse, of murder, and of violence. And yes, priests were abusing children and then covering it up. But that’s a fraction of the abuses being perpetrated by the Taliban daily. Right now. Not in the distant past. Not in the middle ages. Right now. Every, single, bloody, day. I’m not trying to condone the abuses by the priests in the catholic church, I’m simply saying that comparison to the Taliban is the same thing as a R. calling Obama a Communist- pure rhetoric, meaningless and empty. I’m simply trying to contrast it with a group where violence is the norm, not the exception, while rafflaw was simply trying to inflame opinion with insubstantial arguments. And rafflaw is much smarter than that, capable of way more thought and care than that. And the rest of the history of the catholic church is exactly that- mainly history. They’re not exactly relevant anymore. I don’t give two hoots what the pope says or doesn’t say regarding any subject. So its only relevancy is as a target and punching bag of politics.And as far as them forcing their views on us- we are still a land that allows freedom of religion, right? We do still have certain freedoms, like, telling the priests where they can shove their ideas, without worrying about a squad of mental hygiene police busting down our doors. And I’ve already made plain my ideas regarding the Church and the acceptance of public funds. If you don’t like working for them, don’t. Or stage a protest. Or unionize. Or quit. If they are the only medical employer in your area, why don’t you just go ahead and shut them down? Except that your area now has no medical coverage, of course. Freedom has a price, and choices have consequences. If they’re so evil, why the bloody blue blazes do they build these hospitals in the first place? If you can’t stomach the way they treat you as an employer, do whatever the law allows, without wadding up the Constitution.
Now as to calling rafflaw too intelligent to comment- I simply said he was too intelligent to make such broad comparisons for pure rhetoric purposes, not that he shouldn’t comment at all. I rather like his comments, when he’s not after being so hateful.
To CLH, while I agree with many of your points, I have to take issue with your comments about the VIetnamese liberation forces. It is true that both sides were hardly saints in all things, the fact is that as President Eisenhower admitted, if a free election were held, Ho Chi Mihn would have won with around 80% of the vote. In such a situation where nearly the entire country is for liberation, the Vietnamese side did not have to use mass terror as a weapon as the US side did. In fact, the US acknowledged this fact by a number of measures such as the free fire zones which are in fact considered a WAR CRIME! Then the response to the Maoist dictum that the guerillas are like fish in water was to eliminate the water by any means. I remember talking with some of my fellow GIs who had been in Vietnam and they loved what the ROK troops did. They simply went out and did many Mai Lias in killing all of the people in a hostile village. They thought that was just fine. I recall one of the favorite slogans was, Kill them all and let God sort them out. Go to any Vietnam veteran gathering, and you can buy that one on some flag or poster.
While the US did not follow that example in all cases, that is what has to be done if the whole population hates the foreign occupier. The fact is that the Vietnamese did punish the collaborators with death which is nothing more than what most people in most countries do to such traitors. If the US had caught Benedict Arnold, he would have been hung. In the South of the US in our Revolution, the fighting devolved into civil war, which is the most UNCIVIL kind of conflict that exists. So please spare us the old excuse that the other guys are worse when they do what we do on a FAR greater scale.
What is being done by the US in Afghanistan is hardly like Vietnam at all since the leaders are not the former colonial rulers nor is there a large class of people who profited from that. The Taliban had and has a very narrow popular base compared with Vietnam. So they DO have to use mass terror to try and reimpose their will. The suicide bombing that murdered the leader of the Northern Alliance, Daoud, just a couple of days before 9/11, showed that the Taliban knew about 9/11 and took steps to counter a US response. To say that the Taliban had any intention of turning over Bin Laden is delusional.
Correction to my previous post.I trnasposed some words. So please spare us the old excuse that the other guys are worse, when WE do what they do on a FAR greater scale.
Off Topic:
Cardinal ordered silence on priests accused of abuse
Monsignor tells of dealing with ‘sick individuals’
By Maryclaire Dale | ASSOCIATED PRESS
MAY 24, 2012
http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2012/05/24/cardinal-ordered-silence-priests-accused-abuse/urEBuQXlcREnV7Zz3HdkfI/story.html
Excerpt:
PHILADELPHIA – A Roman Catholic church official conceded that a 1994 list he compiled of 35 priests suspected of sexually abusing children in the Philadelphia archdiocese included some “pretty sick individuals.’’
Monsignor William Lynn took the stand in his own defense Wednesday in a groundbreaking child-endangerment and conspiracy case. Prosecutors blame Lynn for helping keep those priests and many more in ministry, where they had access to countless children.
Lynn, 61, is the first Roman Catholic church official in the United States charged with a crime for his handling of complaints that priests were molesting children. Prosecutors spent 10 years investigating the Philadelphia Archdiocese before bringing charges against Lynn, the point person for priest assignments as secretary for clergy from 1992 to 2004. No other church official in Philadelphia was charged.
Lynn testified that the head of the archdiocese forbade staff from telling accusers their alleged abuser had other victims. And he said the late Cardinal Anthony Bevilacqua would not let parishes announce the real reason an accused priest was being removed. Parishioners were often told their priest had health problems when he left for sex-offender treatment, according to testimony over the past nine weeks.
Seeing that Jesus never prosecuted anyone, can you guess who is in the human that prosecutes?
This is a most one sided anti-catholic rag. The blind following of this media would give the Polit Bureau a run for its money. Govt has become a religion that wants to eliminate its competition. Im sure Stalin is looking up and smiling.
Barrack obama is a terrorist!oSo awesome
E when he gets voted out of office! I’m not rich, but I vote republican all day all the way! Democrats are idiots! Barrack obama is garbage!
My MONKEY could make better decision than that joke of barrack Obama! ZERO respect for that bastard!
Ruben,
“I vote republican all day all the way!” Therein lies the problem…
(You seem angry…)
Ruben sounds more like an OWS guy I dont believe his comments they seem as contrived as Tawana Brawley. In fact best to get off this rant as I can see the PC enforcers will soon be on the way to put out the fire started most likely by one of their own.
A Call to Awaken the Bishops’ Conscience
By Charles P. Pierce
May 30, 2012
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/catholic-bishops-civil-rights-movement-9285037
Excerpt:
This time, The Clan Of The Red Beanie means business. Apparently, in addition to filing nuisance suits around the country, the various clerical errors, who have spent the past decade comfortably free of real punishment for the various felonies against children that they aided and abetted, are now styling themselves as victims, as prisoners of conscience, because the Affordable Care Act mandates that birth control for their Presbyterian charwomen be covered by their health-insurance plans. I link to the Clan’s propaganda site just to give you a taste of the hilarious posturing and ahistorical yahooism attending this latest crusade.
(You may also notice that Thomas More is back in our politics again. He last made his appearance back during the extended Clinton impeachment kabuki, when several Republican congresscritters cited his words — or, more accurately, cited the words that playwright Robert Bolt put in More’s mouth in A Man For All Seasons regarding the rule of law — in defense of their relentless pursuit of the presidential penis. Apparently, the bishops believe that an insurance company’s being required to cover the Pill is roughly the same offense against conscience as More suffered, and being made party to it is roughly the same punishment as being beheaded. And, anyway, More was a bit of an offender against freedom of conscience his own self, a very enthusiastic fan of heretic flambe. Here are some Catholics arguing about him. Don’t blame me. I don’t know these people.)
Perhaps the most obviously risible comparison being drawn by the Clan is the one in which they line themselves up as the heirs to Dr. King, quoting the Letter From The Birmingham Jail and all. (‘T’were up to me, several of them currently would be enjoying a closer parallel to that letter, if you get my drift, and I think you do.) “During the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s, Americans shone the light of the Gospel on a dark history of slavery, segregation, and racial bigotry,” the Catholic bishops say in their bulletin insert. “The civil rights movement was an essentially religious movement, a call to awaken consciences.”
Oh, let us count the ways, shall we? The Civil Rights Movement was an exercise of political pressure that used for its philosophical underpinnings certain religious themes and rhetoric. (And “the light of the Gospels”? Well, partly, but, in his strategy of nonviolent resistance, which was the actual work of the movement, King was a student of Gandhi, who liked Christ, but didn’t trust Christians.) It was dedicated to gaining for African Americans the rights that they already were promised as American citizens, and guaranteed by the Constitution, rights that had been systematically curtailed and eliminated by the secular law. The movement sought to restore rights that already existed, to give back that which has been stolen. This current exercise is a demand by a certain religious institutions to have its private theological beliefs written into an exemption in the secular law, to grant the Roman Catholic hierarchy special rights under that secular law. (Native tribes tried this with peyote, which has been a sacrament to them for longer than bread and wine has been to Christianity, and they got nowhere.) The Church is seeking the right to deny people certain goods and services, as well as the protection of the secular law, under private theological prohibitions, and to do so whether or not the people in question actually are members of the church at all. The bishops want the freedom of conscience necessary to discriminate against their employees of other faiths. If you are that Presbyterian charwoman, you must abandon what your freely developed conscience tells you about birth control and adhere to the teachings of the Roman Catholicism, or you must pay for the Pill yourself, or find another job. The bishops are not merely claiming their own right to conscience here, but a right to dictate to other people what their consciences should abide. This is the equivalent of, in 1965, a claque of Baptists demanding their right not to serve black people in restaurants because of their beliefs in the Biblical basis for white supremacy. This is a lot of things, most of them bad, but it has absolutely nothing to do with what Dr. King was about.
Im not angry, I am soooo excited that Obama is so stupid to challenge the catholic church. He is so finished! DEMOCRAT should pack up and move to the middle east, but not Israel cuz they don’t rate the promise land!
HATE HATE HATE HATE. This whole thing is a distraction, a red herring. Keep drinking the Kool aid and enforce your secular humanism on everyone else. Throw Predjudice in there to get people’s attention put it together in the format your communist professor taught you. Catholics educate Millions in the united states on their own dime and do a much better job then the govt. Unlike the secular humanism theocracy all religious views are welcome in Catholic schools albeit Catholicism is taught primarily in HS all major religions are taught. BTW the largest catholic church in the world is in Nigeria. The Catholic church aids millions of people everyday in this country it is jealousy that ire’s your ilk and brings up isolated happening from the past in an attempt to smear a great institution. However you are grasping at straws and all but your devoted lock step followers see it for what it is. A distraction and a smear campaign
Catholic Cardinal Authorized $20K To Pay Off Pedophile Priests, Then Railed Against ‘Immorality’ Of Gay Marriage
By Igor Volsky on May 31, 2012
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/05/31/492898/catholic-archbishop-railed-against-immorality-of-gay-marriage-but-authorized-20k-to-pay-off-pedophile-priests/