Karzai Denounces Filmmakers for the Murder of Americans in Libya

Our erstwhile ally in Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai is responding to the brutal murder of U.S. ambassador to Libya J. Christopher Stevens and three other embassy staff in Benghazi on Wednesday. Stevens was reportedly suffocated to death by the attacking mob which attacked the consulate because of a small film shown in the United States that was deemed as insulting to the Muhammad. Karzai then offered his own take on the murders by denouncing the “inhuman and abusive act” of the . . . filmmakers.

President Obama heralded Stevens as someone who “[t]hroughout the Libyan revolution, he selflessly served our country and the Libyan people at our mission in Benghazi . . . and supported Libya’s transition to democracy. His legacy will endure wherever human beings reach for liberty and justice. I am profoundly grateful for his service to my administration, and deeply saddened by this loss.”

Afghan President Hamid Karzai then stepped forward to denounce the “inhuman and abusive act” of the filmmakers and criticized them for causing “enmity and confrontation between the religions and cultures of the world.” I have not seen this film and have little interest in doing so. However, those filmmakers have a right to portray Muhammad in any fashion that they wish. It is the basis for free speech. The continued pattern of Muslim extremists killing people as a protest to intolerance is facially absurd and little more than a rationalization for violence. For Karzai to pick up on that theme demonstrates his fundamental disagreement with key free speech and free exercise values. It also shows the dangers of the Obama Administration’s effort to create an international blasphemy standard with its Muslim allies.

The Obama Administration has been working to develop an international standard for blasphemy prosecutions. The West has steadily yielded to the demands of religious groups that free speech must be curtailed in the name of faith. At the same time, Western governmental and religious leaders have denounced agnostics and atheists as one of the greatest threats facing the West (here and here and here and here). President Obama and Hillary Clinton have been facilitating this trend by working with Muslim nations to develop an international standard allowing for the prosecution of those who insult religion. The Administration has drawn a dangerous line with Muslim countries in first supporting the concept of an international blasphemy standard. As I have mentioned before, the efforts of the Obama Administration to work with these countries on an international blasphemy standard is a threat to free speech around the world. After first supporting an international blasphemy standard, the Administration sought to get Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and other countries to adopt the Brandenburg standard as the basis for such prosecutions. This case also shows why the use of the Brandenburg standard is so dangerous in the hands of such officials who view free speech as the cause of imminent violence. Past cases show that even the suggestion of blasphemy is enough to trigger violent riots in some Muslim nations. Because any joke or image of the Prophet can trigger violence, the standard is immediately satisfied in countries like Egypt and Pakistan, which can then claim some legal legitimacy under the standard created with the United States.

Secretary of State Clinton continues to push for the implementation of the new international effort to criminalize certain forms of anti-religious speech as our Muslim allies expand their definition of blasphemy.
Source: Guardian

The death of our ambassador and these other Americans was simply murder. It was not caused by a film or the exercise of free speech. It was caused by the continued failure of leaders like Karzai to stand up to extremists who believe that violence is warranted whenever people insult your faith or a religious figure. There is a global struggle today over free speech, not just in the Middle East but in the West. The solution is not to enable or legitimate efforts by people like Karzai to prosecute those who “cause” violence by engaging in unpopular or blasphemous speech.

Source: National Journal

132 thoughts on “Karzai Denounces Filmmakers for the Murder of Americans in Libya

  1. Well it seems now the fruits of Secretary Clinton’s blashphemy law efforts have ripened and now she has the death of one of her employees before her. Maybe now she can see the folly of some of her ways.

    With allies such as President Karzai, its no wonder we still get into bad situations.

  2. Right on Professor! We need leadership in our country and the world! Leading from behind is following!!!
    God bless the 4 patriots who were slain for their belief I. Freedom!

  3. “Well it seems now the fruits of Secretary Clinton’s blashphemy law efforts have ripened and now she has the death of one of her employees before her. Maybe now she can see the folly of some of her ways.” (Darren Smith)

    Holy Shite!

  4. “How did an obscure film come to have international ramifications?

    A trailer of the film was first posted on YouTube by a user called “sam bacile” in July 2012, and has received about 11,000 views to date.

    The trailer began to get much more attention in September. On September 4, the same user posted a version dubbed in Arabic, which has garnered more than 70,000 views.

    Morris Sadek, a Coptic Christian born in Egypt but who lives in the US, told AP he had been promoting the film on his website. He also tweeted a link to the trailer on September 9.

    Sadek, the head of the National American Coptic Assembly, is known for his vehemently anti-Islam views, and told the Wall Street Journal that “the violence that it [the film] caused in Egypt is further evidence of how violent the religion and people are”.

    Terry Jones, the Florida pastor whose burning of Qurans in 2011 spurred riots across the Muslim world leading to several deaths, also reportedly promoted the film.

    The Arabic version of the trailer received heavy media coverage in Egypt last week, including by controversial TV host Sheikh Khaled Abdallah, who reported on the film on September 8. A clip of the show was posted to YouTube on September 9, where it has received almost 400,000 views so far.” Al Jazeera

  5. “We live in a world where American provocateurs can easily arouse the militancy of Muslim extremists who are more ubiquitous than even I would like to admit, or, at the very least, allow bad people to use extant anti-American sentiment to whip crowds into frenzies. In either case, innocent people, including Americans, die.

    On Twitter, the first instinct of a lot of Americans was retributive justice. But the U.S. government’s sensitivity about the mood of the violent protesters is maddening but necessary. Being aggressive would cause more unnecessary dying.

    Those who use the gift of institutionally and legally-protected free speech to exploit and prey upon the vulnerability of certain people to violence ought to be shamed. ” Mark Ambinder

  6. This has nothing to do with blasphemy laws, this is about a couple of morons using their right to free speech to unnecessarily mock a religion and a group of extremists taking too much offense to that mocking and murdering people.

    We need to work towards religious sensitivity and understanding on both sides of the coin.

    Just because we have the freedom of speech doesn’t mean we should abuse it. The pastor who has promoted this video has caused protests by buring the Koran in the past, he is a hate monger and his hate mongering has now led to American deaths…regardless of how murderous those with the blood on their hands are.

    Blasphemy laws and anything restricting free speech is completely ridiculous, but so is continuing to incite other cultures/religions and abusing that right.

  7. To echo raff and Darren, among others, would somebody please explain to me why we are still there? It did not work for the British in the 19th century, the Soviets in the 20th and it is not going to work for us in the 21st.

    I have a Muslim friend, who is one of the smartest psychiatrists I know. He was born and raised in Syria. My daughter once asked him a similar question to the one posed by Rodney King, “Why can’t they all just sit down and talk it out?”

    He patted her on the shoulder and replied, “They have been fighting like that for more than three thousand years, so the US is not going to get them to stop in just a generation, because it is a way of life over there.”

  8. JCTheBigTree, Are you serious? Abuse it? We have art and films involving urine, feces, Jesus, Saint Mary..AND NOBODY DIED! You’re an enabler.

  9. When you lie down down with dogs you get fleas. Then you get bit. Then you get killed.
    Are the neo-cons “Shocked” that this happened ? Are they outraged ?
    Will they call for immediate sanctions, and retaliations. Perhaps we should invade Iran now for this terrible incident.

    ….. Or maybe we can develop a saner and wiser foreign policy.

  10. Sometimes we should consider what the rest of the world thinks, especially our allies (not talking about Karzai), about our understanding of Libya:

    Events in Libya have confirmed that the West is fated to inflict on humanity the demented moral hypocrisy of its peoples and the malevolent avarice of their ruling élites. North American and European corporate propaganda media have recited a relentless litany of false beliefs that have also been echoed by the great majority of what, in the Western Bloc, passes for progressive opinion. The opinions of the majority world have been disdained with what can only be interpreted as racist arrogance.

    As in all effective political propaganda, the key message turns around one or two simple and endlessly mechanically reproduced motifs. In the case of Libya the first motif is that Muamar Gaddafi is an exceptionally brutal and corrupt dictator with no support among the Libyan people. A second motif has been that the rebellion in Libya was led by peaceful, noble, heroic rebels against the Gaddafi dictatorship. These two false beliefs have been sustained by a plethora of hypocritical comment, blatant moral blackmail and narcissistic pseudo-analysis.

    (Scoop Independent News, New Zealand). No less than Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski (I am reading his book “Strategic Vision”) says in that book of the U.S.eh? citizenry’s awareness of the rest of the world:

    “its populace is self-deluded and, frankly, ignorant about the rest of the world” …

    (The Failure of Applied American Epistemology). Libya was in better shape, in terms of “the blessings of liberty and the common welfare” than a lot of other nations before it was invaded by the U.S.:

    … the fact that the Libyan people were cared for by their government (they shared in the revenue when their oil was sold, and it was deposited into their bank accounts; they had benefits at no cost to them such as health care, full education, zero interest loans, $50,000 upon marriage, free land use for farmers together with seeds and tools, cheap gasoline at .14 cents per liter, half of the purchase of a vehicle provided to them, and on and on) was not the reason they were invaded “in order to save them from their government”.

    (ibid) I dare say Americans would be incensed if their country was invaded and their social security was removed and given to oil companies.

  11. Nick… The difference is that Christians have learned to ‘turn the other cheek’ when it comes to ‘blasphemy’ of their prophets/saints… Our culture accepts and in some ways, enjoys that mockery and protects it because our Culture fully embraces free speech.

    We also know full well that this sort of mockery of Islam leads to bad things…that the Culture in other parts of the world is not so forgiving about free speech and that the extremists in other nations aren’t rational.

    So my question is, what was the point of the movie? It clearly isn’t a documentary about Islam or a political cartoon style editoral, to me it is clear that they simply wanted to degrade and insult those of the Islamic faith. So while the vast majority of the blood is on the hands of the extremists, there is an amount on the hands of those who knowingly incite violence.

    Am I saying free speech and blasphemy should be outlawed? No. But I am saying that when individuals on our side are doing things that furthers the divide between ‘Us’ and ‘Them’, we should be denouncing them just as much as we denounce those who react to their foolishness.

    An analogy: There is a hornets nest in a tree on the far edge of my lawn, I can spray it with a water hose and not likely get stung…I have a right to spray it, but the hornets are going to be happy about it. I should I exercise my right ‘just because I can’? What if one of my friends is on the other side of the yard, should I do it then because its my right?

  12. “To echo raff and Darren, among others, would somebody please explain to me why we are still there?” (OS)

    That was rhetorical, right? You weren’t really asking about oil and protecting Saudi Arabia from it’s fellow Muslim neighbors, right?

  13. To think that a youtube video inspired this is evidence of what Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, an expert in geopolitical strategy, says in that book of the U.S.eh? citizenry’s awareness of the rest of the world: “its populace is self-deluded and, frankly, ignorant about the rest of the world”.

    It brings up “Political Science”:

  14. nick spinelli
    1, September 12, 2012 at 12:37 pm
    JCT, You don’t walk on eggshells for crazy, hate filled, people. It simply doesn’t work.

    ——————————————————–

    Sad, but, never-the-less, true.

  15. SwM,

    I don’t know about that … it works with Dung Ho ;)

    Seriously … you’re right but so is nick … dealing with the crazies on both sides is fraught with peril.

  16. Nick/Blouise… Neither do you needlessly incite them, putting the lives of your fellow citizens, who are doing real work trying to change the ways of those people, in danger.

    By your token, we should continue to insult them…until what/when?

    If we’re going to continue to enable those that incite them, we should be indifferent as to what happens to people such as J. Christopher Stevens and other Americans overseas.

    Rights bring Responsibilities.

    Another analogy: Way back in college my Fraternity did not tend to get along with another house that was 100 yards away on the other side of a parking lot. Late one night one of our guys got jumped at a party because of couple of their guys were pissed that a couple other guys from our house were ‘talking sh!t’ about their house earlier in the night. Who’s right, who’s wrong?

  17. JCT, I consider artistic freedom as extremely important. Do we set up a panel to review all content in movies, tv, newspapers, internet, to censor anything that will set off crazy people. We can respectfully disagree on this incident, but I hope we can agree that the aforementioned censor panel is antithetical to everything WE believe. Do we flush down the toilet our constitution to try and appease crazy people? NO.

  18. JCTheBigTree,

    “By your token, we should continue to insult them…until what/when?”

    That’s your spin and never my token so the answer is also yours to provide which will continue to be completely divorced from my opinion.

  19. Muslims desecrate, defecate, mutilate, annihilate shiting all ovewr morality ,and then try to call their acts moral? Try as I might with all of my might I still fall short of words to describe the heinous stretch of the Muslim religion. Why don’t the Muslims repent? Murder is not in any way form or shape possibly conceived in the mind in any way in reality a moral thing to do. Why then do it?

  20. Muslims are desecrating, defecating, mutilating, annihilating, pulverizing, pounding, mashing chopping , blasting, incinerating, pissing,and shiting all over morality with a proud justified smile trying to call their acts moral. Try as I might with all of my might I still fall short of words to describe the heinous stretch of the Muslim religion. Why don’t the Muslims repent? Murder is not in any way form or shape possibly conceived in the mind in any way in reality a moral thing to do. Why then do it?

  21. I find the title of the film, “Innocence of Muslims,” ironic. Seems to me the ghastly actions in Libya prove the film’s premise that the radical islamists’ religiosity is more than enough tinder for an irrational explosion of hatred and violence. I also find it telling that the supposed spontaneous violence came on the anniversary of 9-11. No coincidence to the adherents of the “Religion of Peace,” I’m sure.

  22. Jonathan Hughes:

    “Muslims are desecrating, defecating, mutilating, annihilating, pulverizing, pounding, mashing chopping , blasting, incinerating, pissing,and shiting all over morality with a proud justified smile trying to call their acts moral. Try as I might with all of my might I still fall short of words to describe the heinous stretch of the Muslim religion. Why don’t the Muslims repent?

    ********************

    Who would they repent to? They don’t believe in your deity and fervently believe (as do you) that their actions are religiously sanctioned (as do you). They also have engaged in acts no more heinous than those your religion has committed in advancing its faith over its long sad history.

    See any pattern here, JH?

  23. I was @ the American Embassy in Bogota in 1987. The narco-terrorists had the entire country of Colombia in a state of seige. The terrorists had taken over the Supreme Court, destroyed records and killed judges. I can tell you that American Embassy was a fortress and the narco-terrorists never attacked it. This Libyan raid, apparently planned, should not have worked if we were prepared.

  24. As an atheist, I find it both frightening and hysterically funny that “Western governmental and religious leaders have denounced agnostics and atheists as one of the greatest threats facing the West.”

    Good grief, we’re the OPPOSITE of dangerous. We have no skin in this game. We have no superstition-based beliefs; we don’t offend easily, and we’d never commit an act of violence because one of our hoodoo-voodoo beliefs was mocked or challenged. Atheists threatening, indeed.

  25. One of the biggest thrills I have had recently was attending a meeting of stand-up comedians, which was introduced by the leader saying:

    “We’re here to brainstorm with each other about stuff and to be funny and help each other to be funny. At the same time, we have to recognize that some things are considered funny by Person-A and not by Person-B. So if you get offended about something, F*CK YOU!”

  26. Malisha, Great anecdote. Comedians say what people think but are afraid to say. They are our best defense from pc, which is a pernicious attack on the First Amendment.

  27. Malisha 1, September 12, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    One of the biggest thrills I have had recently was attending a meeting of stand-up comedians, which was introduced by the leader saying:

    “We’re here to brainstorm with each other about stuff and to be funny and help each other to be funny. At the same time, we have to recognize that some things are considered funny by Person-A and not by Person-B. So if you get offended about something, F*CK YOU!”

    nick spinelli 1, September 12, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Malisha, Great anecdote. Comedians say what people think but are afraid to say. They are our best defense from pc, which is a pernicious attack on the First Amendment.
    ================================================
    “Humor is truth, only faster.” – Gilda Radner

  28. I think the makers and promoters of this “film” got a little more than they hoped. They hoped for some riots, maybe a fatwah and Americans whipped into another frenzy of hate. I wonder if they regret the death of four Americans.

    Terry Jones burns Qurans. That’s not art but I bet it has improved his standard of living. This probably will, too.

  29. First Amendment is not protection against criticism or denunciation of speech or even otherwise legal private action designed to punish that speech. I’ve got no problem condemning those who incite violence by mocking or disparaging other’s religions. It’s silly and counter-factual to say that such speech cannot be a cause of violence. Note, however, that all of that is a long way from saying such speech should be legally restricted. I fully support the First Amendment and I fully condemn the filmmakers at issue here. Nothing inconsistent with that.

  30. Nick S, OMG OMG yes, and nobody’s ever been like Belushi.
    Did you ever see his routine “The Luck of the Irish”?
    When he smashed the table with his hand and screamed I fell LITERALLY fell on the floor (so did he) and laughed my a55 off! I tried to sue him for damages but he died. OMG, it’s past hilarious. “THEY LOVE THEIR MOTHERS!”

  31. Muslims in Pakistan were ready to burn a child with mental age of 8 over blasphemy that was later found to be framed, and some here think that it was the movie that provoked this, I guess some people can, without even realizing that they are reinforcing these barbarians by directly or indirectly justifying their acts. God save us from these living with us but mentally still as twisted as the killers

  32. “Those who use the gift of institutionally and legally-protected free speech to exploit and prey upon the vulnerability of certain people to violence ought to be shamed. ” Mark Ambinder”
    —————–

    Is there not a limit to free speech and incitement to violence. This issue did not come up, I believe, when we discussed the Pa judge who castigated atheists mocking Mohammad, etc. provoking violence as revenge etc.

    Is there such a borderline?

  33. Alexander the Great took ships to get around it to reach India. He was wiser than we are.

    The Afghan says: “This is my side of the mountain. If you stick your nose over, I will cut it off.”

    Such are the ways of the mountain tribes. Ask any Kurd. The mountains are our only friends is their motto.

    Just guessing. My Afghan friend was raised in India. My Afgan pharmacist is friendly but we haven’t discussed more than Rumi’s poetry.

  34. Vassals have always been against the power of hegemony; accepting the brute strength of empires while extracting what they can.

    This post shows U.S. foreign policy at work — kill the beggar, pay the thief.

  35. Los Angeles-based Israeli real estate developer Sam Bacile released on the 11th anniversary of 9/11 on Youtube a 13-minute trailer for a two hour anti-Muslim short movie, titled “Innocence of Muslims,” depicting the Prophet Mohammed as insane, a fraud, and as a sex pervert.

    In an interview with The Times of Israel, Bacile stated, “The main problem is I am the first one to put on the screen someone who is (portraying) Muhammad. It makes them mad,” Bacile said. “But we have to open the door. After 9/11 everybody should be in front of the judge, even Jesus, even Muhammad.” Bacile further riled up Muslims with his statement: “Islam is a cancer, period.”

    Bacile said he received financing for the movie from 100 Jewish donors. The movie’s production costs were around $5 million. Bacile is unapologetic about the consequences of his movie.

  36. Nick,

    “JCT, You don’t walk on eggshells for crazy, hate filled, people. It simply doesn’t work.”
    ================

    Yes, you do. You embrace one and say: Let us talk as brothers about your feelings this film has offended.

    And then you talk. You get to know one another. You start to ask about each others children, the parents, the school results, the health of all…..!

    And what do you get? The fruits of being Christ-like and a new friend whose religion you can not share, but whose life you value and respect, in spite of his sensitivity.

    Christians once killed Christians. I’m sure some evangelists would like to do so even today. We are not less sensitive than the Muslims, just more indifferent to the messsages presented by our religions. Garbage has become recognized as such by 40 per cent or more of Americans younger than 40 years.

  37. Malisha, Luck of the Irish was a classic. I was living in Chicago when Belushi died. As you might imagine, it was a big deal.

  38. Blouise,

    “That’s your spin and never my token so the answer is also yours to provide which will continue to be completely divorced from my opinion.” (to JCT)
    ====================0

    So you know what he is gonna come with. Psychic? Psychotic? Firm as a rock, and just as wise as one too?

    Amazing. Take that as a gentle nudge. Bright does not always mean right. And I said that. Use it if you like.

  39. ID, I agree it’s a good idea for dialogue w/ sane people. The terrorists hate us. I realize that’s difficult for many people to get their head around. These folks are sociopaths before being religous zealots. The religion is merely a delivery system for their sociopathic personalities. Having dealt w/ many sociopaths..sat down @ tables and interviewed them, they have no conscience. What’s good for them is, by their definition, good. The vast majority of people can’t comprehend that. Well, IMHO that’s good. I don’t want a world where all people can understand sociopaths. I want it to be a foreign concept. I wouldn’t want my kids to understand it unless it was their job. These are people that must be killed or captured. It’s not complicated.

  40. ” 35 anonymously posted
    1, September 12, 2012 at 2:57 pm
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/world/middleeast/for-veteran-envoy-return-to-libya-was-full-of-hope.html?hp
    Such a loss
    =================

    Bull hockey, both your message and nytimes message.

    He was an experienced proven executor of American foreign policy. Which for the moment is laying hands and control of all available oil resources to protect us.
    He had proven his skills in “battle” during the “rebellion”.

    Don’t believe that serving in the Peace Corps confers a halo on anyone. I have known a few PC people up country in Thailand in 65.

    The sucker was smart. And you don’t advance unless you do your bosses bidding. And he advanced to his incompetence took his life. As ambassador, he should be commanding (to use army speak), he should not have gone to Benghazi.
    His place was managing resources, not facing down mobs.

    Is there no one who can turn off their blind sighted patriotism and recognized this as how it should have been.

    Did Obama ring and say: “Your life or your family’s”. Maybe so, that’s maybe part of the job nowadays. Do or die. No pun intended.

  41. The news continues to shape up that this was a planned attack as Mespo’s cite states.

    The majority of Americans are at odds with our foreign policy regarding the Middle East in general and specific, discrete policy aspects. The Administration and Congress is unresponsive and if current predictions on training the Afghan police and reinforcing the government/civilian/cultural infrastructure is to be believed, the figure of a potential 10 year, on the ground engagement in some regarding Afghanistan is possible.

    There are those that say Karzai plays to the radicals as well as the US (behind the scenes) because the only thing that standing between him and a revolution is the the US presence. He’s in it only for himself and the graft for him and his family.

    We’re not going to change the culture and and the ‘enemy’ owns the battle-space on the ground. And they shift the battle-space whenever there is an opening.

    Our exit from Afghanistan (both troops and the thousands of military contractors)is long overdue and that token force of troops (trainers?) and large numbers of military contractors should be pulled out too.

    *****

    “Today, there are more than 113,000 private contractors in Afghanistan, while there are only 90,000 troops, Manchin said.

    “For Iraq, we can’t get accurate numbers. But there are between 20,000 and 30,000 contractors still in Iraq,” Manchin said.

    Bowen said, “The Department of Defense has never seen a complete audit of its contractors. They say it is impossible to do. That is unacceptable.”

    http://wvgazette.com/News/201208290193

  42. idealist707 1, September 12, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    Alexander the Great took ships to get around it to reach India. He was wiser than we are.
    =======================================
    And then there were Texas guitarists ….

  43. Nick,

    “This Libyan raid, apparently planned, should not have worked if we were prepared.”
    =================

    Who says we were not? Who says this was not CIA planned and enabled? Have we not understood at this point that Al Quaeda is an arm of the CIA? That Al Quaeda provacations are not part of the big picture—whatever that is?

    Can this not be part of the drumming up to Syria and Iran bombing? You figure it out, I can not. But think widely and wildly is productive. It has lead to lots of advances.

    They said to the ambassador: This is a do or die operation and it is your turn to die for it. Got it?

  44. I agree with the comment of Flip Kid, above. I also feel that the best thing to do with Afghanistan is pull out now like Nixon’s father should have at that moment of conception. End all aid immediately. Tell Karzai to put a turbin on that bald head of his and to go ahead and be an Ayatollah or whatever name he wants.

  45. This attack in Libya is going to change the upcoming debt-ceiling battle I bet, as well as reinforce the arguments to continue the war -on whatever, terrorism, Al Qaida- where ever it leads. Who is the puppet and who is the master?

    While Nick S and I disagree on some things I am completely in agreement with his statement: “Do we flush down the toilet our constitution to try and appease crazy people? NO.”

    Not under the banner of cultural sensitivity, not under some BS Brandenburg standard, not based on some craven pragmatism (and I try to be a pragmatist), but no, not my First Amendment.

    Dredd’s info above is something to think about,

  46. Nick,

    We can agree to diaagree and agree and live with it.
    I am not sacrificing anybody’s first amendment (Lotta says), or kissing extremist arsle. If the one I am embracing pulls a knife, then I hope my arm is faster.

    Your expeience of psychopaths exceeds mine. No contest.
    But what do you know personally of muslims.
    I even know former Iraqis who were not of any religion, but who were deists. And they left after ’91.

    Getting your info from media is BS. Or do you have a channel you believe in?

    As roe consipiacies: Did you ever hear what JE Hoover once said? Comspiracies so great, we can not imagine their existence. Was he right? And which one was he talking about.
    ====================

    Oh yeah. Please tell me how to do eggplant and parmagiano cheese. I have soaked them in salt water to remove the bitterness and made ovendishes with tomato sauce. But the skins are still tough, and the taste is not apparent.

    I have peeled and fried them in gallons of olive oil, they just soak up and soak up. Taste? Niente.

    I am totally challenged by them.

  47. ID707: \”Al Qaeda is an arm of the CIA?\”

    Bin Laden and the Taliban was subsidized by the CIA and were very useful but they felt shafted when SA agreed to allow military installations in SA after the first Gulf War. Bin Laden then recruited the most militant of his Taliban brigades to form Al Qaeda. The were not funded by CIA but were still funded by their family members it is rumored and indirectly by the Saudis since they heavily fund the Wahhabism faction of Islam. They are the most fundamental faction and given great deference and official support in their country. They are the primary authority in the enforcement of Sharia law, they are the virtue police. Bin Laden was a practitioner and used his religious adherence to old-line Wahhabism to advance his cause.

  48. SwM,

    “Not prepared? I guess one could say that about Bush, idealist.—–SwM

    Guess will have to go to the link.

    These deepthinking women leave me swimming. What does she mean? And you took less than a minute on Blouse’s ref to Dung Ho. I’m still wondering on that one. Dung=crap, OK, so what, was that it?
    Think if he had named himself Dong Ho! Now I am off the rhread again.

    Mothers always know how to puzzle their small ones. Question is do all men realize this?

  49. id, Eggplant is an olive oil sponge. I slice them thinly and then just pour Kosher salt on them arranged on a towel. After an hour, flip and salt again. I prepare flour w/ basil, oregano and pepper. Lightly dust the sliced eggplant in the flour mixture and fry in olive oil…~3 minutes per side. Let the cooked eggplant rest on paper towels. If you’re cooking a big eggplant or two this is labor intensive.

    When done frying grease a baking dish, put down a layer of eggpalnt, layer or tomato sauce, then layer of parmesan. Do another layer or two..you really don’t want it thicker than 3 layers. On top more sauce and parmesan. You can also put some provolone and/or mozzarella on top. Bake uncovered @ 400 degrees for 45 minutes.

  50. ID707, check SWM’s posting at 6:51, Bin Laden was a follower of the earliest form of Wahhabism, the stuff from the 17th century as I recall, the original Salifi preaching, that Islam should not go beyond the 4 corners of the written Koran. Contemporary Wahhabism is said to be moderate in that it is moving toward the concept that jihad/war is to be declared by the rulers of countries and governments, not individuals.

  51. Lotta,

    Juat wrote a long “lecture” challenging your views on bin Laden. And the damn system flushed it down.

    Moral? Write briefly. bin Laden never had any Taliban support. He was and remained a foreigner. Anethema to Taliban and afghanis in general. Your knowledge of SA, our policy there, and Wahabism/Salafism etc do not impress me.

    But you do. As always. Salaam alejkam. Hee hee. Bibi!

  52. Lotta,

    will check the link and consider who is publishing it—the neocon think(?)tank. Thanks.

    I have been aware of Salafist importance in Egypt since
    over two years as was given a heads up by my Iranian urologist. He appreciates heads up clients, and does not milk me. Ie good guy. Like most Iranians here.

    Met a new one at the cytologal dept at the hospital last week: nurse from SW Iran near Iraqi border. Kurds on the other side, but she did not know that. She probably came here as a child, judging from her lack of accent in swedish.

  53. As to Libya, forget bald guy for a second, close the Consulate, Embassy, or whatever. Ask the italians if they will take the place back as a colony. Flood the internet with anti Islamic films and utube rants. Make fun of turbinheads whenever possible. Promote womens’ rights. Rue the day the dictators left the former north african colonies. Better to have Italians or French Frogs running those places than turbinheads. All from here, Howard DeMere.

  54. Jesus already won against Mohammed..Why? The soul of Mohammed is already dead being in Satan’s jail awaiting final judgment.. The Stupid Muslims don’t know it yet. Whoever wars is in the same boat that is already sunk like the titanic. Repenting is the only way to save their soul.

  55. idealist707
    1, September 12, 2012 at 6:21 pm
    Blouise,

    “That’s your spin and never my token so the answer is also yours to provide which will continue to be completely divorced from my opinion.” (to JCT)
    ====================0

    So you know what he is gonna come with. Psychic? Psychotic? Firm as a rock, and just as wise as one too?

    Amazing. Take that as a gentle nudge. Bright does not always mean right. And I said that. Use it if you like.

    ———————————————————————

    None of the above. When someone spins my words then asks a question based solely on the spin they applied as if their spin were my thoughts, I always tell them to formulate their own answer based on their own spin. Since neither their spin nor their answer is mine, I own neither and thus the divorce.

    Bright may not always be right but stupid ain’t my problem … not so gentle nudge back atcha.

  56. Idealist, I’m just a little worried about you getting the “heads up” from your Iranian urologist, but I am glad he doesn’t “milk you.” Am I missing something? :mrgreen:

  57. You know, There seems to be three general positions on this thread- Meh?, no big deal – bad business and unprofessional – sick babies belong at home.

    I can’t speak to the last proposition because all of my children are hypothetical but I can see that that may be correct. OTOH, mothers should know their babies, the baby had a fever but was healthy enough to be crawling around so the magnitude of illness may have been enough to keep it out of day-care but not serious-serious.

    The attitude that no personal distraction should intrude on business is an industrial model. There are jobs that are unsafe for children and they shouldn’t be in that environment, that I readily concede. But why not in other business models? (Considering that women get paid less for the same work I would think it would be the least an employer should do, but that’s a different issue).

    The industrial model was born when single women worked full time in industry or service, and when they got older and married they stayed home if possible. If not, they played by the industrial rules. Those rules were rescinded to the point that some companies provided day care and the government mandates leave for maternity/child care but its just a modification that reinforce the industrial model of a strict separation of private and public- which is entirely geared toward business. It is anti-human. There should be no difference between the people and any other piece of equipment.

    I see documentaries all the time about those poor, backward, third-world countries and the women with breast-feeding children are just going about their lives with their children breast-feeding under a shawl while mom shops in the market, do their farming and cleaning and home or village based manufacturing. In the open-air markets they are selling things and working in their shops and cleaning fish and cooking at their carts. It’s quite civilized.

    Mothers have gone about their labors with a baby in a sling on their back or chest since mother and baby Homo Sapien sapiens began. It would make for happier working mothers possibly and a happy worker is a loyal, productive worker. Considering the cost of day care for infants it would make for economically better off working mothers.

    ***It would make for better babies IMO. I pass by a storefront daycare on front regularly and there were about 9 infants in their own little beds asleep or just laying there staring and looking around. (They partitioned the space and made it private so I don’t see them any more.)If that goes on for any length of time that’s child abuse, IMO, as a hypothetical mother.

    That’s the industrial model of child rearing and reinforces the industrial model of employees as mere equipment. It lets nothing distract from the performance of ones duties on the job no matter how menial or ‘safe’ or sedentary the job even if the infant is put in a situation where it’s brain is growing tremendously but its inputs are deprived. Maybe our kids are stupid because we start many them out in a intellectual desert and it harms their brains. Just a hypothetical parent speculating here.***

    Why should a woman not have the ability to carry her baby around and nurse it and bond with it and have it stimulated by the world around it at work if it is possible. The teacher in question and many teachers, with a little foresight, could have her baby with her at work all the time if she so chooses. So could a single male parent with an infant child.

    I don’t think that’s a necessarily good model. I’d like to see it loosened up, a lot. I think it would be a healthy step for business to do so.

  58. Otteray Scribe Contributed:
    “To echo raff and Darren, among others, would somebody please explain to me why we are still there? It did not work for the British in the 19th century, the Soviets in the 20th and it is not going to work for us in the 21st. “

    ~+~

    A complex issue that has become more and more, in my view, intertwined with politics and lessons politicians failed to learn over generations.

    I don’t have the answer on this but this is what I see.

    As you are aware the history of this country so no need to explain it further. I believe we went into war against Afghanistan with all the right reasons, I do believe in several respects there are troops are preventing thousands of people from being subjugated and murdered by the Taliban and al Qaida, and to some degree we are preventing another totalitarian safe haven for terrorism.

    Having said that the flip side we are not doing the right thing. I look at the occupation of Japan as being a better example of how things worked out. Germany was lengthened obviously by the need to protect the West and ourselves from the threat of a Soviet Invasion. But there were few insurrections in either place. Part of this might lie in the state of mind of many of the Afghan people and their history of doing it their way. But the problem I see is that while we wanted to allow the people of Afghanistan a chance to set up their own government, and this usually is good, the chance one takes is that the gov’t the people vote in might not be what the US wants.

    I believe the US Gov’t feared warloard types (slightly lesser than what President Karzai was associated with) so convenience was that he represented a lesser of the two evils. We supported him knowing the corruption he embraced but it was better so we facilitated him in many ways to win the election. Now he has shown to be a disappointment.

    During the Japanese occupation there were at least two times, if memory serves me right, of where the US objected to what was going on with the newly formed government and essentially took it out of power. Finally setting for something a little more acceptable and allowed the process to continue which it evolved into something more acceptable.

    I suppose the hope was with Afghanistan was that something of this nature would evolve here but is not to the point where most will agree it was on its way to being a more acceptable gov’t to all. I don’t know which way it will go.

    One of the reason for this is that there is not a universally acceptable enough view of the new government by the citizens living there. Had the whole of the population chose to abandon the old ways and wanted to turn over a new and better chapter for them we would have seen a faster and mostly positive change. Look at Hungary and the Czech Republic for an example of this when they threw out the Soviet Puppet Gov’t in those countries.

    There is the hope on behalf I suspect of many in the US gov’t that eventually Afghanistan will be able to throw out the Taliban and begin to reconcile their internal differences and we can go home. But, that is not the case presently. So the US is forced into a difficult position. I believe the want is to get out of Afghanistan but the fear is the Taliban will return to power and this will prove not only horrible for the ordinary Afghan citizen but strategically embarassing to the US and the fear is that it would embolden other anti-US countries to test us in other war theaters. And we would then return to having another terror base there.

    But with regard to President Karzai. He may be a despot, but he is THEIR despot and they support him. We have to accept he is there even if we do not like him personally. He has his beliefs and I do not agree with most of them so what do we do?

    I have maintained for a long time that we need to be steadfast in our terms of offering support of other governments. The old trap we continually get into of supporting thugs and despots always bites us in the end and this needs to stop. We can offer advice, medical support, and other basic but limited care to other countries, but if they want trade routes, access to our markets, grant monies, or other renumerations it must come at the price of accepting basic human rights and honest and progressive governance. Else, none at all.

    Of course the other aspect of this requirement would be that the country will then seek out perhaps an enemy like was the case with the Soviet Union during the cold war, but many of these nations such as India came around and were more accomodating when the Soviets were no longer the saviors they might have expected them to be.

    Again I do not know when it will be best for us to leave, if it was tomorrow good, and we should not be there indefinately, but maybe we should be a little more candid with our exit plan and with what we expect of Karzai et al.

  59. Darn! just wrote a long posting to ID707 and WordPress ate it- srsly, I had to go through a hell of manipulation to keep my last posting from being disappeared and then I ended up opening the wrong thread before my computer froze up-Arggggg, WP is acting up?

    Suffice it to say, if my understanding is wrong give me the name of a book that shows my error. The book by Richard Clark – one of the incredibly few government people I trust – did about a 100 page intro to 911, who, what, where, when, lay of the land in his book “Against All Enemies: Inside America’s War on Terror—What Really Happened” That intro pulls it together succinctly and reflects the bits and pieces of the history I read elsewhere.

    As I understand it Bin Laden practices the most conservative form of Wahhabism which is essentially Salifism, it would be more appropriate to have called Bin Laden a Salifist.

  60. If a moderator wants to purge my previous posting here, which I put on the correct thread regarding teacher/breast feeding/etc., please do so. Sorry, my ‘puter started shutting down one program and Internet tab at a time in slo-mo, I grabbed the one tab when I lost my text editor (Ultra-Edit) and another tab then my mouse then my computer. Only here, only with WordPress.

  61. In regard to the computer problems which some of you are having, it is my belief, no, my thought process, that the Lord has been reading this blog and wants us all to chill. His Devine Intervention will perhaps allow us some kind thoughts for religions and inmates of all stripes. After all, if you believe in a Deity then you must pray and if you pray you must cease thinking, and if you cease thinking then you might as well praise the Lard and if it aint Sunday then you can praise the Krisco. Dont get too fat. It is far better to walk to church and lose some weight than drive there and show off your car to the other inmates. And if you are gonna be a bear then be a grizzily. Every thing in moderation, including spell check and nasty word censure. Is it Deity or Diety, either way it references losing weight.

  62. BarkinDog here. Dont mind Captain Ratty. He is the guy who fixes our Dogalogue machine and our computer hookups. He dont like religions or pirates. He wont be back for a good month. He trains dolphins how to spy and report back to the Navy with their observations. He is out at the dock talking to GigglePuss as we speak.

  63. Blouise,

    Aha! I knew there was something I was missing. Like reading again,for example, assuming that would suffice.

    I added that to reduce the impact of nudge. Glad you kept the reply even softer. Helps me in my labors. Positive reinforcemant, and not enabling I hope.

    Moral: If I feel confuesed, read again. If I feel certain, read two times again. Hee Hee. That is not a giggle but a mischievous cackle.

  64. Malisha,

    Nor sure of your basis for concern. He just briefly said the problem is not Wahabism, but falafists. Check them out. No exactly heavy propaganda. No rant or even asking what I had found, etc. OK? You be the judge, it was your question.

  65. Blouise,

    Upon re-readng your answer to me.

    Stupid is my problem, not a conscious need to spin you or others. Take it or disbelieve it. I am still chasing justice and reacting to formulations, and sometimes semantic content. Kick back is all I ssk for, and explanations if desired.

    Did I spin your words? maybe your intentions. but understand your divorce needs now.

  66. Malisha,

    If you are straight and not sex fixated you don’t see the joke in what I wrote about my urologist. thus my first answer to you.

    NOW, I do. Ho ho ho. He hurt me last by inserting a metal peeper and crouching over that to see into the bladder. Wasn’t sexy at all. But no sign of a tumor.
    As a private doctor he can’t afforde the fancy stuff with TV monitors and heads up working position which I had experienced at the urology dept.

    LOL

  67. LottaKatz,

    I could cite all of what you wrote, but will emphasixe the naturalness of the child being with a “working mother”. Second the infant reflex to grasp hair for safety. Third the need for bonding contact, baby stimulation (whole childhood), and showing the wonders of the world while feeling safe with Mom. Stimulation is vital as sleep is to an infant.

    Thanks a lot. A typical Lotta comment, always deeper and better. Great hypothetical mom, from a hypothetical dad.

  68. LottaKatz,

    “Darn! just wrote a long posting to ID707 and WordPress ate it- srsly, I had to go through a hell of manipulation to keep my last posting from being disappeared and then I ended up opening the wrong thread before my computer froze up-Arggggg, WP is acting up?”
    ============
    Yeah´, it is hell with WP. Two rapid page returns/Enter and it will prematurely post OR swallow the whole thing. Other mysterious as yet unidentified key nudges will cause disappeatances.

    =============

    I am lazy and don’t read books normally. But a few. Do you think his whole book is worth the time?

    Got an inside story for you. Usama as some write it, spent a summer here in Sweden, meant to be a whole year, as a guest of a Swedish family. He was disappointed and returned home instead after the summer. Culture conflict. It was his equally old host who mentioned if a couple of years ago. Mystery unsolved. But his family obviously had made the decision for him initially.

    Why should I doubt his devotion to wahabism or even the falafist position? He did lead Al Quaeda. He was a devout if extreme person in his recorded videos.

    But he could be a tool, just as the American public are tools of their government. How does that thought strike you. New one?

    Hi, tool-1. Reply: Hi, who are you serving today Tool-2???

  69. PS

    The 14-year old is a gray-haired man now. Infamous for his cowardice and famous for daring to spy on the Socialist party’s own FBI equivalent. He copped a plea, leaving his partner to do two years in prison. Many years ago.

    Talk about chasing leakers. SOP then by the Socialist party who were in goverment position.

  70. Lotta,

    Read me again. What facts do we disagree on. I insulted you perhaps by passing judgement on your knowledge of the subject, aaying not impressed, etc.

    It is proven that bin Laden cooperated with the CIA over a long period of time. Can not that get that to go together with fanatical falsfism.

    Will Amazon Clark’s book. Thanks for the tip. Up to me to read, if I desire to do so.

  71. With every breath Romney takes…. He is helping Obama get reelected….. Romney calling out Obama for his reaction to the embassy siege is stupid….. Obama so far has handled himself well….

    If mike rogers from Michigan can denounce Romney by his statements….. You know the gop is in trouble…..

    Questioned…. I wonder if the us is still encouraging the British to over run the equdaor embassy…….

  72. “Today, there are more than 113,000 private contractors in Afghanistan, while there are only 90,000 troops, Manchin said.

    “For Iraq, we can’t get accurate numbers. But there are between 20,000 and 30,000 contractors still in Iraq,” Manchin said.

    Bowen said, “The Department of Defense has never seen a complete audit of its contractors. They say it is impossible to do. That is unacceptable.”

    http://wvgazette.com/News/201208290193~lottakatz
    ————————–
    and there is the nail, which you, lottakatz, once again hit right on the head….

    and this is not a free speech issue…if anything it is a ‘tolerance’ issue. Because as long as members of the USA feel a need to push mockery and extremism against those they perceive as ‘different’ or ‘intolerant’ into the language of free speech….then intolerance will remain the button that can be so easily pushed from a distance. And we will continue to be the global fodder of continued manipulation by those whose political interests trump their humanity.

    Free speech does not exist in the US and will not until Julian Assange is able to walk the streets un harrassed and unharmed and Bradley Manning is freed and compensated for his torture and detainment. Until then, we ARE NO DIFFERENT than those ‘”Muslims are desecrating, defecating, mutilating, annihilating, pulverizing, pounding, mashing chopping , blasting, incinerating, pissing,and shiting all over morality with a proud justified smile trying to call their acts moral. ” (Jonathan Hughes)

    Also, Youtube is a Global entity

  73. I guess I’ll have to start reading Jonathan Hughes more often. Did he really write that? Must be confused—-as usual.

    That is what I have been saying for months. And Jesus
    did 2000 years ago. “Ye who are without sin, cast the first stone. (My paraphrase).

    If we had reliable figures, I bet the number of nuts in the USA are at least the same per thousand as in the muslim world. And they kill each other, and so do we, but less seldom on religious grounds. For the moment!

  74. I was startled to read that Secy. of State Clinton is negotiating with the oil nations for a blasphemy resolution. I agree–this violates our First Amendment–and I found it shocking. But also I know little about international diplomacy. I wonder if this is not a way to educate these leaders who know nothing other than oppression?

    So I looked it up to see if anyone else was reporting on this. I found UNwatch ( http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1330815&ct=1995233 ). Apparently, this is an amendment under the rubric of Human Rights, proposed by the oil nations. That made me wonder if there were subliminal reasons for Clinton’s efforts, reasons not made public.

  75. Woosty,

    Haven’t checked out your link, yet. But the only link I had from the articles linked from here, lead to one which YouTube had blocked off, BECAUSE it was PRIVATE. Can you explain what that means?

  76. FYI, re USA nuts:

    In NC slone, 160 wives were murdered by their husbands the last calender year. I wonder how many wives dare sass their husbands there. How was it in your state?

    Of course I would choose NC over Saudi Arabia., but not sure if Morocco is much worse for woman. The tales from their are interesting, shall we say.

    However muezzin calls 5 times a day might be tiring.

  77. this is just personal musing but it seems to me that the majority of Americans are not very worldly. Hard working, mostly intelligent, but salt of the earth and not as aware of the rest of the world as they may think. We have become used to the kind of tolerance of free speech that is akin to calling your brother a name or something of that ilk. The repercussions are mild in comparison. The global picture is not so tolerant and I wonder how much preparation the kids in school are getting regarding this fact? We can’t expect the World to respond to our behaviours that may be perfectly within our rights here….but cross a thousand lines over there. The video on Youtube has been cloaked….now. But Youtube is nOT a private channel and that video had apparently been dubbed by a party not related to the making of it. It stinks of possible manipulation of events. If we want to lose our free speech, we need only become so intolerant that its very existance becomes more of a threat than a freedom. Like anything else….the user needs to exhibit responsibility!

  78. The outtake, said to be from the YouTube version is on Buzzfeed.
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/inflammatory-anti-muslim-movie-may-not-be-a-real

    The dubbing is incredibly badly done in one simple matter. The sound from the original is of poorer quality tham the dubbed sound. Opposite of what you would expect. The original sound is with clear echoes from hard surfaces, but even in what appears to be outdoor takes.

    Likely they were done on a small cheap set, with no echo suppression, and using background produced by blue drape technique using stock footage. Sand dunes, palm trees etc. Standard USA faces with bad fake beards.

    As alleged in the CM and Buzz feed articles, the dubbed sound does not match, and voice quality changes in different parts of the same “line” ie they don’t always dub the whole line, as CM claimed they did.

    Conclusion: It is a fake in that it did not cost 5 million, but it is good enough to fool muslims of poor understanding, and the purposes of someone.

    Is the unknown producer a Coptic Christian, a jewish person, a CIA operative, or your guess is good as mine.

    Why “produce it in America”? Well, you need clean typical American kid actors to give it an authentic American source appearance. Two, is that the production was available for a cheap price. Bought on the black market.

    Anything to do a runup to the election and action in Syria and Iran.

    Make your guess.

  79. Woosty,

    Agreed. I said yesterday, that we feed on the misinformation/propaganda daily from corporations and media re-hash formed in guaranteed emotionally suggestive bites. Naming even some sources as examples.

    The greater part of the pop grew up from childhood looking at propraganda labeled “truth”. How are they to be regarded and function as discriminating people.

    The rest of the “primitive” world regards us with disdain, yes they do, shocking as it may be. Disdain because we are so naive.

    We believe so much false information without corroboration from independent sources. Can anybody name a reliable source that Noam Chomsky? And he is not on very often.

    If we follow up this with correct thinking it may awaken some. Otherwise, keep living in your matrix.
    They will definitely keep on milking you.

    Could have ended better, but gotta eat my stew. Suppertime.

  80. The AP uncovered the identity of the man behind the YouTube film. He’s a Coptic Christian (probably non-observant), Arab name, lives in San Francisco, and he has a criminal history. His identify was confirmed by federal agents.

    He’s the type to take a gun and shoot up a fast food restaurant. In effect, isn’t that what he did?

    Oh, and that nutty preacher in Florida expressed his glee.

    As to your comment about most of the population in the US feeding on misinformation and propaganda, that’s one reason this blog is refreshing. But it is worrisome that those who think critically number so few.

  81. Who, other than lawyers, are taught to think critically. Most of them are pre-selected or self-selected long before law school, I believe.

    The problem even here is that here they are not professional analysts in non-law areas. Do we have any researchers here at all?

    The CIA has half of its activity in the analytical part. The Op side stays in Washington and builds careers and multi-layer bureacracies. Going to the field ops dooms your career possibilities. Getting on a tangent. Just making cred through exhibiting “advanced” knowledge.

    The process of “managing consent” began in WW ONE. They were not novices before that. Now, 95 years later, Goebbels would be proud of our “leaders”. And as Goering said: War and patriotism will create enthusiastic consent by any folk. (paraphrase)

    Refreshing yes, that’s why I am here. But change originates not here. Although some ideas do.

    Some very few voices here say, as I do, forget democracy. It is war we are fighting. And is anybody prepared to die, or send their children to do it?

    Meanwhile vote for Obama. Will give us more time to organize, I hope.

    I regard myself as the perfect judge of all things, since I am so unemcumbered by facts. Ha!

  82. ID707: “Seems that I bought it in 2009. Never read it. !!!!!”

    LOL, I do that all the time, or buy multiples (generality from the library or seconds tables or by the box at a garage sale on my way to the grocery store) rather than look through stacks and stacks of uncategorized books- ran out of shelf space. Last time I looked for a specific old Sci-Fi book I found 7 copies in paperback in the ‘un-archive’.

    It’s worth the read- kinda’ dry and old news now though.

  83. Woosty = ^..^, and the DOD has never had a complete. accurate audit. It’s just impossible t do. That gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling every time I think about it sucking up 50%+ of the nations discretionary budget.

    Regarding your posting and link on the movie proper (and Gloria’s posting on the producer): yea, I read those stories and saw what is billed as the movie- or a 10 minute excerpt of it, and you just have to wonder what the point was, what was the agenda, If he had backers who were they?

    I still have a fundamental problem with blaming him and the movie though- he made a movie, a (sub)culture of reactionary, violent ideologues with a twisted and dangerous set of morals are to blame for the violence. There’s too little recognition/examination of that in the media. We have argued here that the best disinfectant is sunshine and that when people start talking crazyshite calling them on it is the best response. I think that goes for religion too. More public discourse (or downright insult) regarding the failings of all religions should be the norm: ‘You can believe it but it’s nuts and destructive’.

    The film in itself is in a dead-heat with “Plan 9 From Outer Space” for worst movie ever made- at least it’s short

  84. Speaking of amateur videos and official American proclamations commemorating the deaths of uncooperative Muslims, how about:

    “We came. We saw. He died.” — U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s glib, cavalier quip about the death of the captured, wounded, and unarmed Lybian Moammar Gadhaffi here.

    Some acts of mob violence by enraged Muslims American officials fund, arm, and celebrate. Others, not so much.

  85. There is a clash of two world values coming. Heck, it’s already here. Both sides see their particular value as “sacred.” In the West, it is freedom of speech. In the Middle East, it is “do not criticize anything about Islam.” Obviously, the two values cannot exist together.

    If the people in the West believe anyone has a right to say anything, including anything critical of Islam, Mohammed, Sharia Law, or any other aspect of belief which is sacred to Muslims, and there are Muslims who believe such criticism justifies killing in retribution, peace cannot come. Unless one side agrees to discard the value it places on a “sacred” belief, we are all condemned to continued violence. But, the West will never discard freedom of speech, and the Middle East will never discard the prohibition against speaking anything “blasphemous” against the prophet. So, choose up sides. It won’t get better. It will get worse. Abe Lincoln once said, “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” Neither can a world.

  86. A wort against Mohammed is not blasphemy. To disobey a Muslim fast is not blasphemous. The Muslims consider it to be blasphemous. Therefore by their law punishable by death. That is ridiculous..The behavior of the Muslims calling it good is abominable leading to blasphemy grieving the holy spirit away from them. They grieve people away from them.

Comments are closed.