Police: Mother Of Alleged Bomber Has Outstanding Criminal Charges

article-0-19747785000005DC-827_634x361Zubeidat Tsarnaeva, the mother of Boston Marathon alleged bombers Tamerlan and Tzhokhar Tsarnaevso, appears to be wanted for theft in the United States — a charge that could make her interview with authorities more complex for any lawyer. She failed to appear on a theft charge in Massachusetts in October. The looming charges appear to be one of the reasons for her reluctance to return to the United States.

article-0-1972000D000005DC-75_306x423The legal status of Zubeidat Tsarnaeva is uncertain. From court records she would appear in violation of a court order to appear to answer two counts of malicious/wanton damage and defacement to property. In June, she stole $1,600 worth of clothing from a Massachusetts Lord & Taylor store. She was due in court on October 25, but never showed up. It is not clear if a bench warrant was issued after her non-appearance.

To make matters worse, she was captured in a religious rant on CNN when called about her son: “If they are going to kill him. I don’t care. My oldest son is killed, so I don’t care. I don’t care if my youngest son is going to be killed today. I want the world to hear this. And, I don’t care if I am going to get killed too. And I will say Allahu Akbar!“ It appears that, like her oldest son, Zubeidat Tsarnaeva has become more religious in recent years. It is a chilling insight into those who replace conventional maternal and moral values with extreme religious views. I realize that she is clearly distraught but this is a pretty unnerving response.

The use of religion at such moments strikes many faithful people as curious like the recent people convicted of stealing parking fees who noted that they would not steal during Ramadan. Of course, in nations committed to Sharia law like Saudi Arabia, stealing $1,600 worth of clothes commonly would result in having your hand cut off.

Source: Daily Mail

87 thoughts on “Police: Mother Of Alleged Bomber Has Outstanding Criminal Charges

  1. First of all, I really have a lot of respect for you, but… Do you really believe this BS? Please, don’t push half truths on us. We want to know the big picture, not this those picked up framed pieces of truth. And we know you have the means to figure out that. Cheers.

  2. Raff,

    In a lot of cultures the oldest son is the only child….. I wonder if this is culturally true with these folks….

  3. Not sure if its the case here but much gets lost in translation especially with the more complex languages. I wonder if this is an accurate translation of the mother’s words. Even if it is the grief and distress she is in make her words inadmissible to most compassionate onlookers.

  4. So here are your choices – you wanna go back to the US & face a $1600 theft charge or would you like to stay here and have the Russian police very interested in you and your whereabouts? She is not stupid; Upstate MA is a whole lot happier than some state run camp in Siberia.

  5. Bombing suspects’ father to return to U.S.


    MAKHACHKALA, Russia (AP) — The father of the two Boston bombing suspects says he is leaving Russia soon for the United States.

    Anzor Tsarnaev told journalists in the southern Russian province of Dagestan on Thursday that he is leaving “today or tomorrow.”

    The suspects’ mother, Zubeidat Tsarnaeva, said she was still thinking it over. She was charged with shoplifting in the U.S. last summer and is concerned that she could be arrested.

    Tsarnaeva said she had been assured by lawyers, however, that she would not be.

  6. I would argue that there is a linguistic technique in which individuals sometimes claim they do not care or value one thing in order to emphasize their concern or commitment to something else.

    It would be interesting to hear her complete statement and gain some insight regarding what she does value.

    It is also not uncommon to hear individuals claim that nothing else matters once they have lost that which is most precious to them.

    It is not clear to me that the statements attributed to this mother give us a reasonable basis to understand her state of mind or her true meaning.

  7. ((Trying this again with **’s to mask a naughty word.))

    It appears that, like her oldest son, Zubeidat Tsarnaeva has become more religious in recent years. It is a chilling insight into those who replace conventional maternal and moral values with extreme religious views. I realize that she is clearly distraught but this is a pretty unnerving response.

    The interesting bit here is:

    in recent years


    I don’t think that these are “extreme religious views”.
    It would seem that this is a rage against the world and has found a way of expressing itself.

    It isn’t the religion that has caused the rage.

    I don’t think that woman or her sons “hate our freedoms”.
    I don’t think that some tribemen in a Pakistan valley “hate our freedoms”.

    Any yet, there appears to be a desperate need on the part of most Americans ( which probably stems most of their politicians) that all Muslims are radical Islamists who “hate our freedoms”.
    Goat-herders in Afghanistan want to take away our freedoms and kill us for no other reason than that they are Muslim. It’s what Islam is all about.
    We’ve done absolutely nothing to even mildly irritate them, so the obvious thing to do in the face of this is to invade / bomb / drone them and their children. While this is messy, it can’t possibly make them “hate our freedoms” any more than they did beforehand anyway.
    It’s deadly serious! There are over 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. Like 23% of the Earth’s population – and they all “hate our freedoms” – even if their entire world consists of a 10 mile radius around their village – which might have a crater where the village council along with some women and children got blown up by something from the sky.

    All Muslims are dangerous – even if they are actually Buddhists (who also look brown and’ funny’). If the perp of a school shooting turms out to be Muslim, it’s a terrorist attack. It is not simply some disaffected person in a rage against something.
    Lock down an entire city to show them that we are not scared and that terrorism does not work.

    In other non-news:
    I’ve asked this in other threads as I still can’t find the answer..
    What happened to the two innocent Arabic-speaking guys who were cleared through all the screening that billions can buy the TSA, but still hauled off a Boston-Chicago flight because they were speaking Arabic?
    What happened to two completely innocent guys in the Land of the Free? Held for some time? Strip searched? Their names in TIDE?
    Or was it “Sorry guys, your fellow-passengers are ignorant racist a**holes. We had to head off a riot. You’ll go First Class on the next flight. Just don’t speak Arabic on it.”

  8. ChaZ, that’s B. S. The quran does not allow stealing, from anyone. Yes, some Muslims have stolen from non-believers under Muslim rule, but if you follow the investigative trail, you’d see that the Muslim ruler at the time, when aware of it, has always taken action to right that wrong.
    Perhaps rather than quoting a website whose main wish is “to expose” Islam, you ought to be fair to the process and to us all by reading the Quran, the hadiths or at least do an unbiased search on the internet.

  9. I see a couple of problems with this whole matter. First of all, there are cultural differences, with people have differing world views. Additionally, anyone who has ever translated one language to another knows how subtle meanings get lost in the translation, especially if the translation is literal (Think: “All your base are belong to us”). What she seems to be saying and what she means and feels may be two completely different things.

    Second, we do not know how religious any of these folks are. Lots of people claim to be religious and later are found to be using religion as a cover for a hidden agenda. Then there is the tendency of defendants and/or suspects to make self-serving or manipulative statements. We just don’t know any of these things. I am patient and am willing to wait for all the facts.

  10. it is truly absurd that some of these responses justify horrible crimes because some feel that the US has done wrong in some part of the world. I note that ST has forgotten the big smoking holes in NYC and the Pentagon, and PA. I was wondering just what horrible thing the US did to Afghanistan to justify or excuse or provoke those things. All I can recall is that the US supported the mujahdeen against the Soviet allied regime there which was the legitimate government of the country. The US recognized that regime for YEARS by the way and still had a US ambassador there. Then the US supplied Stinger missiles which resulted in vastly more casualties for that regime and the Soviets. IN fact Bin Laden got lots of money and training from the US. The Taliban regime got $300 million just before 9/11 in aid from the US. I guess that they were legitimately pissed off because it should have been MORE. In fact, Bin Laden, and the Taliban had NO mention of Palestinians, or other grievences against the US at the time. So please fill me in on the crimes of the US prior to 9/11.

    Just what crime has the US done to the folks in Chechnya? In fact, the US and conservatives have been supporting the Islamic rebels there. So our reward for giving aid and shelter for these fanatics is that we should be bombed?

    As for what the mother should do, i recall the reaction of the families of others whose relatives have committed such outrages. They ALL without exception to my knowledge have ALL apologized and expressed condolences and regret to the victims. Yet we have this monster of a mother saying that she has NO concern for her other children or the victims. I think that she should be allowed to come back, do her time in prison, and then get thrown out and sent back home. It is an outrage that any person would excuse such uncivilized behavior.

  11. PO, I guess you don’t know much US history then. Just after the US won our independence, we had our first undeclared war, called the Barbary Wars. The Muslim rulers were not only stealing from others, but making slaves out of US sailors, and forcibly converting them to Islam. Since those countries were Islamic run and adhered to the Koran strictly, how could you say that the Koran does not justify stealing?

  12. ChaZ 1, April 25, 2013 at 8:42 am

    Why am I not surprised? Quran allows stealing from non-believers, so it doesn’t make her any less of a Muslim.
    Are you confusing Islam with the old forms of Mormonism?

    Most every orthodoxy has rebel doctrines that should not be confused with the orthodox doctrines.

    For example, there are over 400 denominations, in U.S. Christianity alone, with varying doctrines.

  13. I doubt that the Mom will be able to secure counsil as good as the one the accused bomber will receive:

    Boston bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev managed to say just one word to a federal judge when charges were filed against him in a makeshift courtroom held at the side of his hospital bed, “No.”

    No, he could not afford an attorney.

    As a result, Tsarnaev, 19, who is facing the possibility of the death penalty for his alleged role in last week’s terror attack, will be represented by one of the most experienced and well respected public defenders in the country, Miriam Conrad.

    Conrad heads the Federal Public Defender Office in Boston and her resume includes defending “shoe bomber” Richard Reid in 2001 for trying to blow up a Paris to Miami jetliner.

    “She is excellent, tough, tenacious and wise,” said Tamar R. Birckhead, now a University of North Carolina law professor who worked with Conrad for four years, including on the Reid case.

    (Yahoo News).

  14. from the Hadith:

    ‘I have been commanded that I should fight these people till they bear witness that there is no god but Allāh and keep up prayer and pay zakāt. When they do this, their blood and their property shall be safe with me except as Islām requires, and their reckoning is with Allāh.”13

    (B. 2:16.)

    13. The hadīth begins with the words, I have been commanded, and the command to fight is contained in the Holy Qur’ān in the following words: “And fight in the way of Allāh with those who fight with you and do not exceed this limit” (v. 5). Muslims, therefore, could not resort to fighting unless an enemy was the first to assume hostilities. What the hadīth means is that fighting begun under these conditions is to cease when the enemy people accept Islām. Bukhārī himself hints at this when he quotes this hadīth under the heading if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, then leave their way free,” i.e., cease fighting with them.

    Jihād means the exerting of one’s power in repelling the enemy or in contending with an object of disapprobation. It carries a twofold significance in Islām, being applied to both. the purely missionary activities of a Muslim and his defence of the Faith. when necessary, in a physical sense. The first duty–the duty to invite people to Islām–is a permanent duty laid upon all Muslims of all ages; while the second is a duty which arises upon certain contingencies. The Holy Qur’ān calls attention to both these duties in the clearest and most forceful words. In the first place, it speaks of a jihād to attain to Allāh (v. 1). Then it speaks of carrying on a jihād against unbelievers by means of the Holy Qur’ān, and this it calls jihād-an kabīr-an, a very great jihād (v. 2). Islām’s greatest jihād is, therefore, not by means of the sword, but by means of the Holy

    p. 253

    Qur’ān, i.e., a missionary effort to establish Islām. We are further told that there should always be among Muslims a party who invite people to Islām (v. 3). Thus the missionary jihād of Islām is to be carried on in all circumstances.

    The sword could never be used to force Islām on others. compulsion in religion being forbidden in clear words (v. 4). Fighting was undoubtedly allowed but it was expressly allowed only as a defensive measure against those who were bent upon annihilating Islām by the sword, not to compel people to accept Islām (vv. 5, 6). When persecution ceased and everyone was at liberty to profess whatever religion he liked, the sword had to be sheathed (v. 7). Even in the midst of the war, if the enemy wanted peace, war was to be discontinued (v. 8). The good news is finally given that not only will Islām not be annihilated but it would ultimately be ascendant over all other religions (v. 9).

    Hadīth also speaks of both kinds of jihād. It is a Muslim’s foremost duty, and the most excellent deed a Muslim can do (hh. 1, 2). A promise is given that if Muslims exerted themselves to their utmost to uphold the cause of Islām, they would be in the ascendant (hh. 3, 4). There is a further promise that divinely inspired persons, called rnujaddids, shall appear among Muslims to revive the faith (h. 5), and that a Messiah shall appear among them to carry the message of Islām to the Christian nations of the world in particular (h. 6).

    Guiding a man to truth is spoken of as a Muslim’s greatest treasure (h. 7), and the Holy Prophet himself wrote letters to kings in the 6th year of Hijrah, inviting them to accept Islām (h. 8). He never threatened any of them with invasion if his message was not accepted (h. 9). Muslims had to fight their battles, but this they had to do simply to defend Islām which unbelievers wanted to annihilate (vv. 5. 6) The cause of Truth was, however, to be defended unto death (h. 10), and Muslims were told to be always ready, if the need arose, to defend the Faith with the sword, that being the way to Paradise (h. 11). The Holy Prophet’s own soul yearned after martyrdom in defence of the Truth and if possible. to come back to life and die again defending the Truth (h. 12), and such should, therefore, be the desire of every Muslim. Martyrdom could, however, be attained in other ways too (h. 13). Even women took part in the battles which were being fought in defence of Islām (hh. 14, 15), Non-combatants were not to be killed in battle, there being a prohibition against the killing of women and children (h. 16). Fighting was to cease if the enemy offered peace, even though his intention might be to deceive (v. 8), or if the enemy entered the brotherhood of Islām (h. 17).

    My question to any Muslim reading: America is a country which believes in freedom of religion, it is enshrined in our Constitution so why are you fighting us when we accept your right to worship as you see fit? You were fine with Sadam yet we freed you from his secular rule and you kill us every chance you can. Why?

    Bush should be a great hero of Islam, he has done more for Islam in the past 10 years than any member of the Muslim Brotherhood. He has increased the Islamic sphere of influence where there was none. America has protected Islam when others wanted to destory it [The Balkans/Sadam].


  15. “What the hadīth means is that fighting begun under these conditions is to cease when the enemy people accept Islām. Bukhārī himself hints at this when he quotes this hadīth under the heading if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, then leave their way free,” i.e., cease fighting with them.”

    So since we went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11, which I now see why many Muslims refuse to accept it was done by Muslims. If they accpet that as fact then our war was started by Islam and it is not a defensive war but an offensive war.

    So if we allow that many Muslims consider this a defensive war, then the only way it will ever stop is if all Americans will accept Islam as their religion.

    That isnt going to happen, so if I have this right, the only way this is going to end is with the destruction of America or the destruction of Islam. Is that right? Seems to me I have it right.

  16. So, the next time you hear a heartwarming story of two Christians who halt fighting in a war because it is christmas eve, or a rapist who releases a captive alive because they are reminded of Jesus- remember this.

    That a nominal Muslim remembers bits of his religion during a holiday in the midst of his low down activity does not mean that Islam allows one to be bad unless it is a holiday-anymore than the Bible teaches that mardi gras is fair game so long as you give up something for lent. Depavity mixed with religion should not be what defines the religion. That they leave OFF the depravity is a testament to the fact that their religion has taught them enough to know better. . .

    These people were non practicing and irreligious Muslims until an Armenian convert showed them the way to practice true Islam? Anyone who knows anything of the attitude of Armenians towards Islam would immediately start wondering what motivation there might have been-an Armenian teaching them how to practice their religion. . .mentoring them towards this crime. . . further demonizing Islam. This young man didn’t fit in his home, he wasn’t accepted in his own mosque for his views. . . which he didn’t learn in a mosque! He learned them from a new Armenian convert. When you start hearing the conspiracy theories,this might head it up. I might even buy into the conspiracy theories on this one.

    The mom is clearly a weak and stupid woman. I could have sympathy for the woman who lost her sons that she loved and is still in disbelief. She knows better and has no thought to anyone else? Not even her younger son?

  17. I was waiting for people to be unhappy with the representation he gets. He is a citizen and has no means, evidently, and therefore is afforded public counsel. Should he get a bad lawyer?
    Rafflaw says “,,,after what he and his brother did?”
    We go after Bloomberg and others for trying to take away our rights but somehow it is okay that these guys not be given the rights they are permitted as American citizens, such as innocent until proven guilty and adequate counsel, meaning maybe even a very good lawyer.
    I don’t know if they are guilty or not, sure looks like it so far, but when I see media, like one of the morning shows this am with a caption that reads Boston terrorist (think that was the word they used) not talking. No suspected, no alleged.
    This guy needs to get a fair trial so there will be no technicalities to allow an appeal if they are found guilty. And if found guilty no refusals to accept the guilty verdict, based on evidence, and not speculation.

  18. Mother of the Year. Can someone go on Google and translate her last name into English. My Google translater is broke. The first half is Tsar. Maybe she thinks that she married into the Royal Family. Her surviving kid is poster boy asking to get rear ended in general population in prison. Meanwhile, here at the dogpac, the marina outhouse has imprinted her photo on the toilet paper rack next to the Sears Roebuck Cataloque and People Magazine. Personally, no dod in his right mind would wipe his uttBay with that ugly face photo. But the humans are having at it in the outhouse here at the marina. Some dog keeps stealing the toilet paper so they have to resort to the second chance pile.

  19. Arthur Randolph Erb,

    Darn it! I had completely forgotten about the smoking holes.
    So it must entirely that “they hate our freedoms”. End of.
    This is good news, because it’s such a simple concept for everyone to understand. Nobody needs to stress about complex stuff.

    I did highlight the

    “in recent years”

    in my post above.

    It appears that rage on the part of the elder brother predated any interest in religion.
    He’s basically a school/cinema shooter but just happens to have channelled via Islam – rather than Islam channelling through him.
    His manifesto appears to have been along the lines of “Sh*t is f*cked up and bullsh*t”.

    I would not be at all surprised to see more pressure cooker bombs going off – and perpetrated by people like Adam Lanza and others who have killed far greater numbers of people.
    Did you know that the brothers do not qualify for the FBI definition of “mass Killers”?
    This is not in any way to trivialise the outrage, but a sense of proportion is called for.

    The reason the world seemed to stop for a while and an entire city got locked down was not violent deaths. It was an assumption that bombs (as opposed to Bushmasters ) mean MUSLIMZZZZ!!!

    Thanks to all the the conflicting information about the Boston bombings, I now know how to make a very effective bomb using off-the-shelf materials. I didn’t need to access a Jihadist website/magazine or even talk to anyone. Just do a search for Hobby Fuse or even Pressure Cooker Bomb. It’s all there – even on WikiPedia.
    Cooker, metal chunks, tape, hobby fuse / flying fish, electric matches, garage door opener or r/c model.

    Making bombs is not something that interests me at all. I was simply interested in the conflicts between FBI & Co talking about “sophisticated” (aka ‘therefore must be AQ plot’ ) and the criminal complaint mentioning “low grade” and “hobby fuse”.
    This curiousity was completely satisfied by a couple of Google searches.
    Even a child could do it – and they will.

    The sooner that people stop trying to blame things on religion, the better.
    ITRS – It’s the Rage Stupid

  20. It is interesting how the devote of one branch of the asylum are so quick to marginalize the scum on their branch while insisting that the scum on that other branch over there simply must represent all of those crazies!

    Bad people do bad things, some bad people ‘credit’ their bad things to the Great Cosmic Muffin they mutter to as instructed in youth. Others ‘blame’ the bad things on that other guys Benevolent Hairy Thunderer. Each is able to cite specific bad things recommended in the collected works of fantasy those others believe in while ignoring the ones in theirs. Each can cite specific prohibitions to bad stuff in their own fair tales while ignoring the same in the others.

    Neither side can see the mental illness that causes them to behave this was but believes the others mental illness is real. The only time they agree is when someone who believes in neither’s dilutions does a bad thing – they agree it is the absence of the great guiding light from above that caused that bad thing and offer as proof that no true believer in their invisible sky wizard would do such a thing. When they do its because they are not really a true believer QED

  21. So since we went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11,

    The connection from 9/11 to Iraq was what exactly?

    That isnt going to happen, so if I have this right, the only way this is going to end is with the destruction of America or the destruction of Islam. Is that right? Seems to me I have it right.

    You have it wrong.
    —– unless you mean America self-destructing.

    In the meantime good luck with exterminating 23% of the world’s population.

  22. ARE,
    Regardless of language, we still have cultural and religious differences to consider. Also, we still have criminal charges in the mix, which most likely influences any and/or all public statements. As I said, I am going to be watching how this plays out with much interest.

  23. Blouise, Bingo!! Nobody, as of yesteday, has even claimed shitbird#1’s body. By Muslim law he should have been buried last Saturday or Sunday! The US will be chastised by Muslim zealots for not taking are of that, I bet.

  24. NS You are quite correct that the apologists for Muslim fanatics will blame the US for that, and will be just one more “proof” of the US war on Islam. I DO hope that folks will note that the Muslim congregation threw the nut out and have not wished to have the officials do anything for his body or his family.

  25. nick,

    He has an uncle living in Maryland, a wife living in Cambridge, two sisters living in the States, and an Aunt living in Canada … lots of people to claim his body.

  26. Arthur Randolph Erb writ thusly:

    I DO hope that folks will note that the Muslim congregation threw the nut out and have not wished to have the officials do anything for his body or his family.

    Yes they did, in charity, try attitude adjustment.
    Any reluctance to facilitate ritual may have more to do with the guy not actually being one of them rather than a politic embarassment.

    Meet Bron, who writ thusly:

    My question to any Muslim reading: America is a country which believes in freedom of religion, it is enshrined in our Constitution so why are you fighting us when we accept your right to worship as you see fit?

    I think Bron is talking about the “Victory Mosque” aka “Ground Zero Mosque” which apart from not being a mosque was 2 blocks from “Sacred Ground”.

    Apart from that, there might be something in there about all the 1.6 billion Muslims fighting America because they “hate our freedoms”.

    Despite being being apparently/possibly (based on the quotes) being diametrically opposed on the question of the evil of all Muslims, you might have a lot in common.

    Reading here and all over, I have come to the belief that America is deeply religious.
    It’s a Biblical religious that is absolutely pre-Jesus.
    It’s a (self-)righteous/exceptional vindictive eye-for-eye smiting sort of thing.
    It sounds like a mirror of the worst possible interpretation of Islam.

    Projecting much?

  27. The thread title feels a bit like Deuteronomy 24:16

    But then the media and the pollsters did put pressure unto Deuteronomy, so he saith 5:9

    But much later there cameth a Saviour, and the dude was righteous and was quoted thusly:
    John 9:1-3

    Disclaimer: I made up all of the above, or it was some book in a hotel room when the TV was crap.

  28. I meant that it appeared to be a Deuteronomy 24:16
    ……but there was some sort of stealhily thing going on

  29. Sling:

    “You have it wrong.
    —– unless you mean America self-destructing.

    In the meantime good luck with exterminating 23% of the world’s population.”

    Do I have it wrong? Are you an Islamic scholar?

  30. Blouise, Vegas has the odds @ 100-1 she was licensed. I’ve not seen the interior of their upstairs apartment, but did see a CNN shot from the exterior..Icky! It’s not the Cambridge most folks picture. However, that’s not uncommon. When I tell folks in the midwest I grew up in Ct. most picture pastoral suburbs of NYC. I grew up in a blue collar, factory town and that’s what most of Ct. is. Now, when you tell people you’re from Cleveland I’m sure folks picture factories and pollution, not your pristine estate! Actually, I think the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has helped change folks view on Cleveland. It got me there[twice] and I like your city. It feels more east coast to me than midwest.

  31. sling:

    no I was not thinking about the “victory mosque”.

    Are you an Islamic scholar, taken comparitive religion classes, read the Quran, read anything by maybe Al Farabi, Omar Khayyam?

    Do you have any superior knowledge on which to base your responses or is it all purely emotion?

  32. nick,

    Considering that her residence was an apartment and that, when interviewed, one of her former patrons said she used the family’s bathroom, that right there is outside the code. (The patron’s mention of using the bathroom had to do with the strange remark the mother made which was something like, you may use the bathroom for none of the men are home.)

    Cleveland is one of the most liberal cities in America. I’ve never had any desire to live anywhere else although there are many other cities I love to visit.

  33. Shame on you, Professor Turley. Although the media has judged them, improperly, it is an allegation that they are the “bombers.” We don’t really know, do we?

  34. Bron

    Do I have it wrong? Are you an Islamic scholar?

    I’ll give you ….
    – The Spanish Inquisition
    – Pope John Paul – a simple man who looked at the books – might have thought WTF – and died under vague cirumstances
    – Pope John Paul II – who eventually said “I’m outta here”
    – Pope Francis – who might have thought “Oh Holy Sh*te” and said “Offices are necessary but they are necessary only up to a certain point” – as in the Curia being soul-immune professional empire builders, nevermind the homosexual rings
    – aaaaand…I’ll give you …. um… Catholics.

    F*ck your scholars.
    I’ll give you people.
    …..like ordinary people getting on with their lives in the culture/family_circumstances into which they were born.

    In answer to your question…

    I am not an Islamic scholar.
    Also ….
    I am not a biblical/christian/protestant/catholic scholar.
    …. none of which would equip me to be a human.

  35. At the risk of terminating this thread with extreme Godwin prejudice… and C/c..atholics.. there was that unfortunate thing with the Germans.
    ( but the Jews crucified Christ anyway so who gives a f*uck? ).

    And there was something about Protestants burning Catholics – but we’ve all grown up now… unless we’re not actually ordinary decent Jews but deranged Israelis who want to see how the Holocaust was from the other perspective.

  36. Did I mention that Christ was a Jew?
    Like..before he (He?) became a Christian?
    Oh….. I didn’t.

    Just as well that he (He?) wasn’t born in the next village… like he (He?) would have been a ………….. Muslim?

    Now THAT! would have been a valid reason to crucify him (Him?)

  37. Blouise, I remember that weird bathroom comment. Your Cleveland liberal comment piqued my curiousity. As you might imagine, there are many lists. What sems to be the most fact based one is by the Bay Area Center for voting research. They have Cleveland #11
    1 Detroit
    2 Gary
    3 Berkley
    4 DC
    5 Oakland
    6 Inglewood
    7 Newark
    8 Cambridge
    9 SF
    10 Flint
    11 “The Cleve!”
    12 Hartford
    13 Paterson, NJ
    14 Baltimore
    15 New Haven
    16 Seattle
    17 Chicago
    18 Philly
    19 Birmingham
    20 St. Louis

    I’ve been to every city but Birmingham. There are only ~8 I would care to live in, “The Cleve” being one. The Cleve comes from Thirty Rock. Alec Baldwin used it as a condescending nickname of the city where Liz Lemon thought about moving to for a boyfriend. You probably knew that.

  38. Isn’t Cleveland that city where the river spontaneously bursts into flames.

    There has got to be something very special about a city where the river water burns. I mean… wow, just wow.

  39. OK, OK. I admit defeat.

    It wasn’t the Jews who crucified Christ.
    It was the Romans.
    But that was jusr real polotick ….they were only the Roman Empire before it sort of tranzmorgified into the Holy Roman Empire – so it’s the same thing – just appetites rebranded.
    The Romans only did it because the Jews via the then equivalent of an Interwebz/Fox_News poll preferred a real criminal to be let loose rather than some guy who was just weird.

    I have this image of Obama’s hands being so white from washing that Michael Jackson would have killed him to get his soap.

  40. My hat is off to anybody that knows Pi to 12 digits.

    But did you know 2.718281828459?

    Well, back to important issues. If Drew Carry says Cleveland is OK, that is good enough for me.

    Cleveland, a very special city…and river!!!

  41. bigfatmike,

    Cleveland “river spontaneously bursts into flames” options:

    1) Lobbyists upstream
    2) So much vodka/whisky/spirits intaken so that overloaded livers are unable to process it and inflammable stuff gets out there via a magical bypass valve
    3) There is no magical bypass valve and people just puke raw alcohol straight into the river
    3.14159265359..) “F*ck . I could do that. It’s not like I’ve got anything better to do. And sh*t is all f*cked up”
    4) Global warming caused by farts of dinosaurs no older than 6000 years ( we’re talking young fresh feral dinosaurs with fossilised FaceBook pages here)
    5) Stuff
    6) School shooters
    7) Other stuff
    0) Terrorists aka Muslims even if the real Muslims think “WTF?”

  42. nick,

    Great Irish and Italian and Greek and German and Polish areas and every other ethnicity you can think of. Too many universities, community colleges, and technical schools to mention. Our theater district is the second largest in the country next to Broadway, the symphony is first rate and then there’s Joe Walsh. ;) We outshine New York and Chicago in computer tech and creativity career fields. All in all you can be anything you want to be here except stodgy. Stodgy doesn’t get you in trouble … it just gets you laughed at. One of our newer Brown’s players just got caught up in a prostitution sting … he’s going to fit right in.

  43. Chicago has canals.
    Which means that Chicago erulers!

    Google Earth once asked me “Do you want to delete Chicago?”
    I wasn’t thinking it all the way through at the time, so I clicked “Yes”.
    I apologised later on Twitter to anyone who had been inconvenienced by my action.
    I was relieved when I later discovered that the power of Google is not all that it is cracked up to be.

  44. Blouise, Ethnicity and work ethic are important to me and I know Cleveland has both. Staying on the Browns subject, they just drafted Barkevious Mingo. I don’t follow college football like I used to, but I think he might be black.

  45. There was something awful about the Reddit-Identifed-Perp being linked with a Brown(TM) University.
    Then I sensed a hiatus in the Force when clued-up people realized that Indian did not necessarily mean Muslim. (Please Deity make them Muslim so we can continue with easy options)

    What happened to those guys who were hauled off the Boston-Chicago(not Cleveland) flight solely because they spoke Arabic?

    Acerbic I can underdtand. That’s a hanging offence. But Arabic?

  46. nick,

    I have no idea … honestly, people here don’t pay much attention to color/race and with the ethnic diversity that’s everywhere in this city, names are no real hint.

  47. Blouise,

    “Somebody asked about that the other day and no one seems to know.”

    I think ( aka “am sure” ) that was me/I.

    I can think of at least two people who know, but there is silence on the matter.
    Knowing what happened is important – as it speaks to the soul of any idea of a reasonable society.

    I mentioned Shoshana Hebshi in another thread.
    “No one sems to know” would have applied in her case had she not blogged about it.
    Despite her blogging and the ACLU case arising, I still don’t see any trails of the two innocent brown guys whose bathroom visits as perceived by hysterics triggered her abuse (aka vaginal and anal and psychological rape that can’t be reported as such).
    The innocent guys were Indian and probably Buddhist and unconnected with her apart from being brown.

    “no one seems to know”
    That’s because most people don’t really want to know.
    It’s not a sexy story that would attract click-thoughs and who gives a f*ck anyway? There is a war on terror that by definition can never end.

  48. I cannot make any judgments about Mrs. Tsarnaeva. I believe that the pain felt by a mother over the loss of a child is universal. The manner in which that pain is expressed is cultural.

  49. Thursday, Apr 25, 2013 08:00 PM EDT

    Americans should expect acts of terror

    Tom Brokaw was right: Our violent attacks abroad increase the chance of retributive attacks at home

    By David Sirota


    “The stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost.” — Reverend Jeremiah Wright

    In 2008, the hysterical backlash to the above comment by Barack Obama’s minister became a high-profile example of one of the most insidious rules in American politics: You are not allowed to honestly discuss the Central Intelligence Agency’s concept of “blowback” without putting yourself at risk of being deemed a traitor to country.

    Now, five years later, with America having killed thousands of Muslim civilians in its drone strikes and wars, that rule is thankfully being challenged, and not by someone who is so easily smeared. Instead, the apostate is one of this epoch’s most revered journalists, and because of that, we will see whether this country is mature enough to face one of its biggest national security quandaries.

    This is the news from Tom Brokaw’s appearance on “Meet the Press” last Sunday. Discussing revelations that the bombing suspects may be connected to Muslim fundamentalism, he said:

    “We have got to look at the roots of all of this because it exists across the whole (Asian) subcontinent and the Islamic world around the world. I think we also have to examine (America’s) use of drones (because) there are a lot of civilians who are innocently killed in a drone attack in Pakistan, in Afghanistan and in Iraq. And I can tell you having spent a lot of time over there, young people will come up to me on the streets and say, ‘We love America, but if you harm one hair on the head of my sister, I will fight you forever.’ And there is this enormous rage against what they see in that part of the world as a presumptuousness of the United States.”

    As one of the establishment’s most venerated voices, Brokaw is not prone to radical statements. But in a nation that often avoids acknowledging its own role in intensifying cycles of violence, it is unfortunately considered radical to do what the NBC News veteran did and mention that our violent attacks abroad increase the chance of retributive attacks at home.

    Of course, Brokaw was merely stating the obvious: With America having killed thousands of civilians in its wars, we should be appalled by acts of terrorism — but we shouldn’t be surprised by them. We should know that violence will inevitably come from those like the Boston bombing suspect who, according to the Washington Post, “told interrogators that the American wars in Iraq and Afghanistan motivated him and his brother to carry out the attack.”

    Noting this is not to argue that such attacks are justified or that we deserve them. It is only to reiterate what Brokaw alluded to: Namely, that blowback should be expected in this age of Permanent War and that one way to potentially avert such blowback in the future is to try to deescalate the cycle of violence.

    To be sure, from the Rev. Wright to Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul, many have made these points before. But they have typically been ignored or lambasted for uttering the truth. Brokaw, though, can’t be so readily dismissed. He is a Walter Cronkite of his age, and, indeed, his declaration recalls Cronkite’s seminal moment 45 years ago.

    Back in 1968, opponents of the Vietnam War were being marginalized in much the same way critics of today’s wars now are. But when such a revered voice as Cronkite took to television to declare the conflict an unwinnable “stalemate,” he helped create a tipping point whereby Americans began to reconsider their assumptions.

    In similarly making such an assumption-challenging statement, Brokaw has followed in Cronkite’s heroic footsteps. The only question is: Will America finally listen?

    David Sirota is a nationally syndicated newspaper columnist, magazine journalist and the best-selling author of the books “Hostile Takeover,” “The Uprising” and “Back to Our Future.

  50. anony, If Brokaw was talking to somebody in some country, they were in an area which has NO danger of being hit by a US drone strike. If the sister decided to go into such an area, I would think that the speaker would have to warn her about doing so. Brokaw also forgets, as do you, that FAR more civilians are being killed by fellow Muslims. Will that speaker decide to kill the jihadis who kill his sister? Will he call for more US drones to blast the SOBs who killed his sister? Or will he ignore the killers of his sister? Will he say, she deserves to be killed if she does not cover her head, or wear a burqua? These are questions YOU have to ask.

    As one who is a Vietnam era veteran and who was in the anti-Vietnam war movement, and who read tons of books on Vietnam and the war, I can tell you there is NO similarity to Vietnam at all. Just on the surface, I don’t recall any Vietnamese killing over 3000 people in the US. In fact, they were quite friendly to those who came to Vietnam in peace missions. I would advise against doing that in all the areas where US drones are. The folks there have a nasty habit of cutting off the heads of journalists.

    Then you have to remember that the US did nothing at all to provoke any of these attacks. So far I have asked people like YOU to tell me what horrible things the US did in Afghanistan and the remote areas of Pakistan prior to 9/11 that provoked such a thing. I have gotten NO response at all. Your narrative is like talking about WWII and decrying the firebombing and nuking of Japan and forgetting Pearl Harbor. So despite having burned Japan to the ground and killed million of them, the Japanese are good friends of ours now, even WITH tens of thousands of US troops on the ground.

  51. SlingTrebuchet,

    I spent an hour looking for follow up reports on the 2 men taken from that plane. Nothing … in fact some of the initial reports seem to have been, ahem, updated with no longer any mention of them being strip searched or detained for 4 hours. What remains in the newer versions is that they were removed because passengers complained about their speaking arabic, that they weren’t sitting together, and that no one returned anyone’s calls for additional info. I did find three other reports about incidents at Logan that day (4/16/13) but nothing more on those 2 men:

    It’s as if they never existed!

  52. Blouise, I bust balls w/ my black buddies all the time about their unique names. They bust mine about the lily white, Justin, Amy, Megan, etc. It’s our way of being honest. However, I respect it is not everyones cup o’ tea. To each their own.

  53. Bron
    Between the many quotes taken out of context, and the deductions you arrive to from them, you are all over the place. I have met your ilk before, and I realize there is nothing I can do to change your mind, for everything I offer, you’d twist and use as further proof for your fears.
    Most of the bilion and half (or 2) Muslims worldwide have better to do than worry about converting the rest of the world to Islam. Between fulfilling their own lives, their religion and take care of their family, converting anyone, especially by force, is not even a blib on the radar of their wishes.
    You conveniently left out the main message of the Quran, that there is no compulsion in religion, that one cannot be forced to believe in God, because that goes against the whole idea of faith. That the misguided have done such acts does not cause it to change the message of the book.
    Every instance where fighting was urged in the Quran, was directed at the pagan arabs who were molesting and terrorizing the Muslims, the Persians who were warring against them, and the associated Jewish, Christian tribes, and the Romans, who all came together at one time or another to fight this nascent religion. It is also reiterated many times in the book to live in peace with anyone who chooses to live in peace, and to treat them justly.
    Finally, if it is true that the whole of the Muslim world hates America, wouldn’t they be a bit justified? A tiny bit? No?
    Finally 2): Only a clueless american can claim Iraqis are better off now than under Sadaam. Get off Faux News and watch Democracy Now, Al Jazeera English (ooh, scary!)

  54. Collective self-reflection in the wake of a national tragedy

    The American global domination project is bound to generate all kinds of resistance in the post-colonial world.

    Last Modified: 19 Apr 2013 08:59

    by Richard Falk


    What unfortunately remains taboo at this moment of 24/7 commentary on American security policy is any type of self-scrutiny by either the political leadership or the mainstream media, but at least there are a few hopeful signs of awakening on the part of the citizenry.

    Boston Marathon bomb suspect ‘identified’

    Listening to a PBS programme hours after the Boston event, I was struck by the critical attitudes of several callers: it is horrible, but we in this country should not be too surprised, given our drone attacks that have unwittingly targeted weddings and funerals in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    Another caller asked if it is not retribution for the kind of torture inflicted by American security forces acting under the authority of the government, verified by pictures of the humiliation of Islamic prisoners at Abu Ghraib or in light of the authoritative reports of officially sanctioned torture as detailed in the 577 page report of a task force chaired by two former senators – one a Republican, the other a Democrat – and containing senior military and security officials.

    Is it not time that one among our politicians had the courage to connect these dots? Can we not ponder WH Auden’s haunting line: “Those to whom evil is done/do evil in return”?

    The American global domination project is bound to generate all kinds of resistance in the post-colonial world. In some respects, the US has been fortunate not to experience worse blowbacks, and such could yet happen, especially if there is no disposition to rethink US relations to others in the world, starting with the Middle East.

    America’s military prowess

    Some of us hoped that Obama’s Cairo speech in 2009 was a beginning of such a process of renewal, timid in many ways, yet with a tonality that seemed to acknowledge that relations with the Islamic world needed a fundamental shift in the direction of reconciliation, including a move toward a more balanced approach to the Palestine/Israel situation. But as the months passed, what became evident, especially given the strong pushback by Israel and its belligerent leader, Bibi Netanyahu, was the accelerating back peddling of the Obama presidency.

    Now at the start of his second presidential term, it seems that Obama has recognised the constraints, and seeks to confine his legacy to such domestic concerns as immigration, gun control and health care, abandoning the international agenda except to handle crisis diplomacy in a manner that does not disturb the global status quo or shorten America’s global reach. Obama’s trip to Israel, punctuated by his speech in Jerusalem on March 21, was more in the spirit of a love letter to the Israeli public than a genuine effort to bring a just peace, and contrasted with the much more visionary outlook exhibited in his early first term visit to the Middle East.

    Self-scrutiny and mid-course correction of America’s global role is long overdue. Such a process is crucial both for the sake of its own future security and for the wellbeing of others. Such adjustments will eventually come about either as a result of a voluntary process of self-reflection or through the force of events. How and when this process of reassessment occurs remains a mystery.

    Until it does, America’s military prowess and the abiding confidence of its leaders in hard power diplomacy makes the US a menace to the world and to itself. This is as true if Mitt Romney rather than Barack Obama was in the White House. The continuity reflects bipartisan support of a globe-girdling geopolitics, which has so far refused to acknowledge the evidence of national decline that is accentuated by pursuing an unsustainably ambitious global security role.

    Richard Falk is Albert G. Milbank Professor Emeritus of International Law at Princeton University and Visiting Distinguished Professor in Global and International Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He is also the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Palestinian human rights.

  55. nick,

    I know ;)

    White, black, brown, purple, or green … with so many football, baseball, basketball, and hockey players living here, the only thing one can really say with confidence is that more than one of them in an elevator takes up all the space … though they almost always offer to hold the little ones so a family can crowd in.

  56. Blouise, I bet when those big football players crowd into an elevator other folks look @ the weight capacity of the lift and start doing the math!

  57. nick,

    The football, baseball, and hockey players are big but the basketball players are the ones to see … it’s the height … they have to bend in order to get through the doorways.

  58. Blouise, I shook Wilt Chamberlain’s hand once. I was awestruck @ how big he was in every respect. That was back in the early 70’s. When I read his bio and alleged 10,000 sexual partners I realized I didn’t see his apparently most impressive attribute.

  59. Zubeidat Tsarnaeva, Bombing Suspect’s Mom, Also On Terror List



    “WASHINGTON — U.S. intelligence agencies added the mother of the Boston bombing suspects to a government terrorism database 18 months before the bombings, two officials told The Associated Press. She called it “lies and hypocrisy” and said she has never been linked to crimes or terrorism.

    The CIA asked for the Boston terror suspect and his mother to be added to a terrorist database in the fall of 2011, after the Russian government contacted the agency with concerns that both had become religious militants, according to officials briefed on the investigation. About six months earlier, the FBI investigated Tamerlan Tsarnaev and his mother, Zubeidat Tsarnaeva, also at Russia’s request, one of the officials said. The FBI found no ties to terrorism.”

  60. Po said: “You conveniently left out the main message of the Quran, that there is no compulsion in religion, that one cannot be forced to believe in God, because that goes against the whole idea of faith. That the misguided have done such acts does not cause it to change the message of the book.”

    Po, I’m sorry to say this, the excerpts from Quran and Hadith below really does disprove what you just said above:

    The Quran:

    Qur’an (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them”

    Qur’an (9:11-12) – “But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief – Lo! they have no binding oaths – in order that they may desist.”

    The Hadith:

    Bukhari (52:260) – “…The Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ “ Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.

    Bukhari (83:37) – “Allah’s Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate.”

    Bukhari (84:57) – [In the words of] “Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”

    Bukhari (89:271) – A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to “the verdict of Allah and his apostle.”

  61. I stayed up last night, ChaZ, way past my bedtime, thinking of you. I wrote you a long letter breaking down your arguments and offering , well, better ones. Then my pc crashed and I lost the whole of it. Instead of rewriting it, I thought I’d quote other sources. Enjoy.
    “The imposition of tribute upon the conquered Jews served as a precedent for provisions in the Islamic law requiring the exaction of tribute known as jizya from non-Muslims under Muslim rule, and confiscation of land belonging to non-Muslims into the collective property of the Muslim community.[5][7][8] In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practice their faith, to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy, to be entitled to Muslim state’s protection from outside aggression, and to be exempted from military service and the Zakat, which is obligatory upon Muslim citizens.” Wikipeadia. (Pretty generous, I think)
    “Much of fundamentalist Muslims’ ideas about religion-state relations are shaped by the Hadith literature, the oral sayings and doings attributed to the Prophet, which, as I said, were collected centuries after his death and I doubt most academic historians would consider them reliable. (I know saying so will offend some of my readers, but, well, I’m a historian.) The Hadith literature is just enormous, a kind of Muslim Talmud, and I find many of the reports contradictory to others. Some of them are actually Jewish law brought in by Jewish converts (as with stoning adulterers) that contradicts the Qur’an (which prescribes whipping instead). ”
    Pr Juan Cole, Historian.


  62. That Huffington Post story linked above with extracts….

    The headline is:
    Zubeidat Tsarnaeva, Bombing Suspect’s Mom, Also On Terror List

    So what does this mean?
    In around March 2011, the Russians asked the FBI to check out the mother and elder son. Presumably the Russians heard some local gossip. It might be more likely that an informant in the Chechen community in Boston had flagged to them that the son’s sudden interest in religion had resulted in people in the mosque having to give him attitude adjustment chats to stop him from interrupting the sermons.

    FBI found nothing to report. It seems that they found so little to report that their names didn’t even make it into TIDE at the time.
    About 6 months later the Russians went to the CIA rather than the FBI this time.
    This time around, their names get added to TIDE.

    The sidebar link to the story within the Huffington Post reads:

    Ominous Revelation About Bomb Suspect’s Mom

    ZOMG!! OMINOUS! is OMINOUS! Oooooh! Be Very Afraid!!

    Just how Ominous is the information exactly?
    This is explained in story that the Ominoussidebar text links to:

    “Being in that database does not mean the U.S. government has evidence that links someone to terrorism. About a year ago, there were some 745,000 names in the database. Intelligence analysts add names and partial names to TIDE when terror-related intelligence is shared with them.

    If we are to believe the details in the story, then just having the intelligence service of a cooperative state ask about a person is not enough to get them into TIDE. It seems that the names got into TIDE only after the Russians went to the CIA – 6 months after they went to the FBI.
    I get the impression that sections of TIDE are shared with the intelligence services of friendly states.

    The reason the Russians asked about them was apparently:

    “concerns they were religious militants who planned to travel back to Russia”

    So anyway…..
    After they get into TIDE at the behest of the Russians, the mother and the son actually …………. “travel back to Russia”.
    The Russians can now interview and investigate them on their own patch without having to depend on the FBI/CIA.
    It appears that they didn’t do any better at linking them to terrorism.
    — Not unless the ‘mother’ we see on TV and the dead ‘brother’ are stand-ins for a pair that are now incarcerated in some Gulag.
    Now that would be Ominous.

    It seems that TIDE is a sort of club with very loose entry requirements. Members then have opportiunities, along with about 3/4 Million other people to clock up Frequest Mention points.
    It appears that neither of them got to clock up points prior to the bombings.
    Given the intense scutiny under which anything to do with the woman would have been both in the US and by the Russians post-bombing, the fact that she is still wandering around giving TV interviews indicates that she is somewhat lacking in the Ominous department.

  63. ChaZ,

    Your quotes Quran and Hadith here might get you into TIDE. Be careful!

    That asise, they relate to killing apostates as opposed to killing non-Muslims (non – as in never were).

    Your point appears to be that billions of Muslims are constantly on alert for the opportunity to kill an apostate.
    Others might build on that to assert the billions of Muslims are itching to kill all non-Muslims — and kill Americans in particular because “they hate our freedoms”.

    What this logically means….
    If it’s in the Bible and the Gospels, everybody who is even nominally a Christian lives by the word of the books.
    7 days of Creation?
    Sun goes round the Earth?
    The Ten Commandments? C’mon. You’re kidding me.
    Don’t even start with the weak watery stuff that JC came out with.

    Alternatively it might be that all the billions of Muslims are stuck with the books, but Christians have more flexibility because of ‘Christian Exceptionalism’ (TM).

  64. Alternatively it might be that all the billions of Muslims are stuck with the books, but Christians have more flexibility because of ‘Christian Exceptionalism’ (TM).

    no, because of Greek philosophy which is man centered for the most part. you know Aristotle, Plato, Epicurus, those guys. less faith more reason.

  65. All these billions of Muslims that are just getting along with their lives in remote villages – but who in their spare time are forming plans to kill non-Muslims (and particularly Americans with their hateful freedoms) …..

    How about instead of bombing them, drop leaflets telling them about Greek philosophy?

    Christian arrives at the Golden Gates…
    Voice booms “I gave you My Commandments and dictated a bunck of books. I sent My own Son down to firm up on some of the detail. How do you think your life stacks up against that?”
    Christian says “But the Greek philosophers taught us that those rules don’t apply. Your son was a complete pussy with all that loving/forgivness sh*t. I’ll bet he’d have spoken out against abduction and torture of innocents, massive collateral damage, …..”
    Voice interrupts and booms “F*ck the Greek philosophers. You can take up any complaints with them. You’ll find them in Hell – for I am a vengeful Jehovah – plus I got this real bad headache. Couldn’t you even freaking read my books?”

    Can you imagine if JC was around today? He’d definitely be in TIDE.
    “Now when JC saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them.”
    That’s a CIA signature strike right away!
    Miracles of loaves and fishes are fine as you like your loaves and fishes done to a crisp.

  66. Po, I’m sorry to hear about your computer crashing on you.

    But that’s not all, Quran and Hadith comes with many weird stories. About Sun landing in water when Mohammad tries to explain where it goes when it goes sunset. There was also one about Mohammad being so scared when there was an eclipse. About Jewish transforming into Rats, Pigs, and Monkeys. Heck, that’s only tip of an iceberg.

    If you want to stick with Quran/Hadith and defend them, that’s fine with me. I just happen to know that I don’t think a real god would have endorsed all Talmud, Bible, or Quran because… they all support slavery. Would a real god actually endorse slavery? Any old book that tells you that it’s ok to force people to become your slaves WILL not pass my litmus test.

    Even Buddhism thinks Caste system is ok, which I’m not ok with. I guess there’s no such thing as a perfect religion.

  67. Thanks for the concern, ChaZ.
    I can see how to the untrained eye, there are”weird” stories in the Quran and the hadith. I concede that I dismiss some of the hadith myself because they either contradict the quran or contradict the established character of Muhamad AS, namely, gentleness, care, patience, goodwill.
    Now, everyone I speak to who dismisses the Quran outright, including brother in law, have never read it, and get their information from people/sites known for their Islamophobia. So, have you read the Quran?
    Religion came to us on the wings of miracles, and whether, Jews, Christians, Buddhists or else, the faithful must believe in both the divine and the prophetic miracles. Otherwise, there can’t really be faith.
    A reading of the Quran reveals that rarely was an established custom, even one that went against Islam, dismissed outright. Most of them were slowly and gradually phased out, including the drinking of alcohol, and slavery.
    When the Quran came, slavery was not only an established arabian custom but also a global one. It was inherent to any society and any conflict because the losing side was either massacred or enslaved. Islam at least recommended that slaves be treated well. One ought to feed his slaves as he fed himself, and dress him as he dressed, not overwork them, not mistreat them, and free them as penance for breaking the fast or killing a fellow muslim, or simply for that was the right thing to do ” and God is aware of all the good you do.”
    There is no perfect religion because there is no perfect human being. The religion is simply guidelines that are to be relevant for the length of humanity, it is therefore up to human beings, up to the adherents to figure out how the edicts and rules relate to the times. The more perfect the religious are, the more perfect their religion, the more flawed the individuals, the more flawed their religion. Simple as that.
    One thing atheists do is talk as if religion need their approval to exist and thrive. That is a fallacy. Every year, hundred of thousand of people convert to Islam because they listen to knowledgeable Muslims or read the Quran, and find in it the answers they seek.

  68. I’m agnostic, so I don’t have a reason/interest in claiming superiority. But I think it’s ridiculous to pull our random bits of the Quran as evidence that our “Christian” nation has a more developed moral code… Anyone whose ever read the bible knows there is some wild, awful stuff in there, too. The bible supports slavery, rape, misogyny, and other major human right violations. I know, many Christians claim that when David prayed that God would bash the babies of his enemies against rocks to kill them, he was still a good guy because of the historical context/war/whatever. Still, that prayer sounds sorta nasty… Everyone in entitles to believe as they wish, but people may want to examine their own holy books before demonizing others. They all can be read in different ways, are really old and have been translated into a billion languages by God know who. One of the lovely ideas in Islam is that most moderate Muslims believe in 100 paths to God. They believe that godly Christians may enter paradise. Many moderate Muslims also believe that the Quran can’t be read in another language besides Arabic. I had a Russian friend, in college who marries a Turkish Muslim. She fell in love with the religion and spent 6 years learning Arabic, just so she could read the Quran. Many Muslims will say that one of the sources of their faith is because the Quran is so beautiful, in Arabic, that no human could write it. Arabic and English do not translate well… Anyway, have similar thoughts about the bible, as the Quran, some of it sounds lovely, like the Sermon on the Mount. Other parts sound a little nuts. I don’t know a lot about the hadiths… There are a lot of terrible examples of Muslims and Christians, but I don’t think either religious population benefits by ripping at each other. Just my 2 cents.

    As far as the women in question, I don’t know her situation. I don’t know her story or her mental status. But, as someone who also lost a child, I know that I said crazy things for a year after my sweet daughter died. I still freak out, sometimes. I begged the doctor to kill me, when she was in the hospital. I told my family I didnt care if they hung around or all jumped off cliffs. Nothing mattered. The life I had, died with my child. Nothing could comfort me. I wanted the whole world to burn and I wanted to feel the flames. It’s an unimaginable pain. So, I think this woman’s words should be understood in the context of her pain. I don’t know know her deal, like I said. It does seem like she really lacked parenting skills, at the very least. Maybe she’s terrible, but I don’t see how anyone can make that judgement, based on her words in the article above. I can see her words meaning:

    My child is dead. My life is over. Take everything, my life, my family…. I can’t possibly hurt more than I do and my life is over, anyway. God help me!

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