95-Year-Old Man In Nursing Home Resists Going To Hospital . . . Police Arrive And Shoot and Kill Him With Stun Gun And Bean Bag Rounds

JohnWranaThere is a disturbing report out of Chicago where police were called when 95-year-old world War II veteran John Wrana refused to go to a hospital for a urinary tract infection. Called by paramedics to assist in getting Wrana into an ambulance, the Park Forest police showed up in riot gear and proceeded to shoot Wrana first with a stun gun and then with a bead bag fired from a shotgun. He no longer needed treatment for the urinary tract problem. He died from internal bleeding and blunt force trauma. He was about to celebrate his 96th birthday.

Wrana was reportedly frail and had difficulty walking. We have previously discussed other cases involving the killing of a bedridden elderly woman and an unarmed suicide case. The cases raise serious questions of the rapid escalation of such cases in the level of force used by police as well as the increasing use of “non-lethal devices” as a first response to threats.

Wrana was living in an assisted-living facility. Paramedics told police that he was threatening them with a metal shoehorn and a knife. Some reports indicate that Wrana had decided that he did not want to go through an operation. That may have been the reason why he was resisting. He said that he understood that not having the operation could kill him but decided against it. It is not clear whether he was declared incompetent before the attempt to force him to go to the hospital.

The family contests the claim of the knife. Even if he had a knife, it is hard to see why police could not stand back (particularly since they had riot shields) and avoid using such force on an individual who clearly would be a risk with either a stun gun or bean bag round. Even if the blunt trauma did not finish him off, the shock could easily trigger a heart attack in a near 96 year old man. Some reports indicate that multiple rounds of bean bags may have been used.

article-2385926-1B307EF9000005DC-868_306x423Wrana was U.S. Air Corps veteran who served in Burma and India during World War II. Sergeant Wrana survived the hellish fighting in Burma but would later die in the United States just short of this 96 birthday in a confrontation with police. Truly bizarre.

Just for the record. These bean bag rounds are often thought of as harmless, almost toy-like devices. The bean bags fired form a shotgun will initially travel at around 300-400 feet a second (though they have a range of 70 feet). They have been shown to break ribs and even push broken ribs into the heart. Internal bleeding is a well-known risk.


295 thoughts on “95-Year-Old Man In Nursing Home Resists Going To Hospital . . . Police Arrive And Shoot and Kill Him With Stun Gun And Bean Bag Rounds

  1. Absolutely criminal. The officers should be charged with voluntary manslaughter. And speaking as one who has been shot with a beanbag round? They’re like getting punched by the Hulk. But I’m sure it was necessary in dealing with a 95 year old man! Idiots.

  2. I keep reading of police showing up in full riot gear for regular police calls these days. What are they doing ? Is the public some kind of training field for something we do not know about? This is a tragedy of the very worst kind and my heart goes out to the family of this poor man. These officers should not only be fired but prosecuted for murder.

  3. Wow! A very good friend of mine died in January. He was an 89 year old WW2 vet. Ray was the nicest man I have EVER known. I was honored to be asked by his wife to give a eulogy. The theme was that above all, Ray was a gentleman. Ray had Parkinson’s but he remained his kind self, w/ a great sense of humor. The last 2 years of Ray’s life he had 2 episodes where he was uncontrollable. He hit his wife and VA hospital staff, which is just unbelievable if you knew Ray. Both incidents were because of a UI infection. Ray’s wife is a retired nurse[and former nun]. She understood as did the VA staff which Patty said were nothing but understanding and kind to Ray even when he was combative.

    One thing I’ve learned is that you can’t teach compassion or empathy. You can teach respect. These cops had no compassion or empathy, and have not even been taught respect. They have no business being a cop.

  4. Senseless death.

    Why on earth were these two weapons used against this man? Surely, if he had ACTUALLY threatened the officers with a knife (assuming for argument’s sake he did) that might be a different story, but using a Taser on a 95 year old man is NOT considered a proper use (to say the least) and is highly risky. But the bean bag round? overkill in my book.

    I don’t have the full report but my gut feeling on this is that time and patience could have resolved this matter surely better than it was.

    Yes and as Nancy has mentioned swat team for this? Unreal.

  5. Common Sense has left the Police force.

    Is there a Psychologist in the building?

    We need someone to conduct Sociopathy Tendency Testing for the “Boys with Nasty Toys” in Blue.

  6. Wait… The guy had a urinary track infection….hmmmm and he had difficulty walking…. Make total sense to shoot him….. They are saving Medicare, Medicade money…. Creeps…

  7. Another horrible police murder. Why does this happen so often without consequence?

    Minor correction, it’s “urinary tract.”

  8. They could have throw a blanket over him. If these cops can’t handle a sick old man, they need to be fired. They are a danger to everyone. I hope this family sues them as well. My elderly mother needed police twice to take her to the hospital, involuntarily restrained when she was a danger to herself and others. I know it is often necessary. My mom had a gun–thankfully just a BB gun and shot my dad. A sweet-talking sheriff won her confidence the first time and she walked calmly into his car. Second time, hospital staff took her screaming and restrained.

  9. From linked article: “According to the Chicago Tribune, Wrana was scheduled to undergo an operation. On the night of the tragic incident, his doctor told Margenson [Warna’s stepdaughter] over the phone that even if he survives the surgery, her stepfather will likely end up on life support.

    Wrana than got on the phone with Sharon, thanked her for everything she has done for him and told her he loved her before saying goodbye and hanging up. That was the last she’s heard of him.

    Mr Wrana’s family are now deciding whether to file a lawsuit, according to their attorney.”

    As long as he was not mentally incompetent and put under the guardianship of others why wasn’t his wishes not to have surgery respected? From the treatment my father received it was my experience repeatedly that old people, even when mentally fit in the main, are treated like children and scheduled for all kinds of tests and procedures -even needless, expensive and intrusive procedures, just because it’s on a medical checklist or IMO can make a treatment facility some money. Tests and procedures the ordering physician should know are unwise or harmful. Even when the patient does not want it done and states that.

    Maybe Mr. Warna would rather have died in familiar surroundings than be on life support or die on the operating table and why should he not have that choice? The facts seem to be that he was killed, murdered actually, for refusing to have an operation he did not want to have. There shouldn’t have even been an issue from my reading of the articles.

    I’d sure sue and there would be a substantial list of defendants on my list beyond just the thugs posing as cops.

  10. If he has any relatives with any gumption they will buy a good rifle or two and get even. This is why God made rifles.

    By the way, a taser is a lethal weapon. If there is a lawsuit in this case then the plaintiff attorney should depose the mother of on of the igPays and offer to tase her on video just to prove the assertion of the defense and the police department that a taser is harmless.

    The cops in question need a taser shoved down their throats and then have the trigger squeezed.

  11. ” These cops had no compassion or empathy, and have not even been taught respect. They have no business being a cop.”

    That is probably a pretty assessment of the officers. But it gets the solution wrong.

    I greatly doubt that much has changed about the compassion, empathy or respect of officers over the decades.

    What has changed is their training and equipment.

    Things like this will continue until citizens demand changes in the training and rules of engagement for officers.

  12. Not only are the police tactics wrong here, but forcing people to have medical care that they do not want is wrong. A person should be free to decide for themselves whether or not they will have a medical procedure done. There will be many more cases like this one as we move toward implementing Obamacare which forces the government brand of medical care upon everyone, whether they want it or not.

  13. There was an almost identical incident in Chattanooga, TN last July. 95 year old man killed by blunt force trauma caused by bean bags.


    Standard training is supposed to teach those devices are NEVER to be used on anyone over 65-70 year old range. That includes OC (pepper spray). If those parameters were not taught, then it was the fault of whoever is in charge of training. If the officers chose to ignore training, then they are loose cannons and need to go into another line of work.

    If they worked for an agency I do POST exams for, I would immediately notify their agency, as well as the POST Commission, that I was revoking the POST certification pending a full and detailed re-evaluation.

    Here is another case out of Ontario on August 28. Police tasered an 80 year old woman with dementia:


  14. David, I was going to agree with you up until your last sentence. Pulled another right wing lie out of your nether regions. The Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) will do nothing of the sort.

  15. OS wrote: “The Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) will do nothing of the sort.”

    I hope you are right. As someone who does not desire to engage the medical profession (I even deliver my babies at home without their help), I fear that will not be the case. I think they will make it illegal for me to refuse medical care for me or my family.

  16. ” I think they will make it illegal for me to refuse medical care for me or my family.”

    That is just flatly wrong. There is nothing in ACA to force you or anyone to accept medical care. ACA, the affordable health care act, does have mechanisms to determine what government mandated programs will pay for. Nothing prevents an individual from arranging private payment for services. ACA does have programs to help institutions identify good practice and to influence institution to follow good practice through compensation rates.

    But the idea that the ACA police will force anyone to have a medical procedure that individual refuses is fantasy that does not move the discussion forward.

    The situations I have seen, if the if the professional and the individual disagree on a medical procedure, the individual is asked to sign a form that they are acting AMA, against medical advice, and that is the end of it. There is nothing in ACA that will change the right of individuals to refuse medical care.

    That is what should have happened in this case. The elder should have been advised of the suggested procedure and potential problems with both continuing or refusing. Unless the elder was incompetent, the elder’s decision should have been honored.

  17. Please remain vigilant to follow up on the eventual disposition of this case. I’m curious to see if the police actions are eventually termed “justifiable.”

  18. The way to achieve the most rehabilitative effect in a lawsuit would be to get the most money out of the largest range of defendants. The two cops obviously, their superior and their Chief (maybe one and the same), the municipality and the insurance carrier if any. Under 42 United States Code Section 1983 we can sue the two “state actors” and then their superior and under the Monell doctrine, the municipality. If the cops conspired with some relative to put the dead guy under the surgeons knife then the conspiracy brings in those people and the statements of any one conspirator can be admitted under Federal Rule of Evidence 801(D)(2) against all defendants. If the taser company proclaimed that the taser was not lethal then they are a defendant. But, taser-all or whatever the company is called would have to be sued under products liability in a separate count. Punitive damages can be had against all but the municipality. If the City Police of Forest Park had a policy on the use of tasers or bean bags then that policy might be used against the city. Plaintiff may explore the notion of went in dumb, come out dumb too. That legal strategy is to allow them to make all their dumb statements about tasers not being lethal and then ask to taser them on video tape in the deposition and then subpoena in their mom for the same test. If they object, then say, “Why? You mom is not 95 and in ill health in need of an ambulance to take her for surgery, what is wrong with a little taser?” When you go to trial subpoena in the taser and the shotgun and bean bags. Have all the photos at dead guy’s autopsy there.

    When you get done with them and put the money in the bank then ask their insurance carrier if it has any policy to discuss with the Park Forest Police Department about the use of tasers and bean bag shotgun shells. Ask the Chief of Police at the next Town Council Meeting the same. Ask the taxpayers who will foot the bill the same.

    If the dead guy’s heirs read this and want a lawyer then please call BarkinDog. If ya do not want to sue them then listen to itchinBayDog.

  19. There was the case of Mace Hutchinson in Ozark, MO in 2008. In a TV interview, Capt. Thomas Rousset of the Ozark PD said,

    “He refused to comply with the officers and so the officers had to deploy their Tasers in order to subdue him. He is making incoherent statements; he’s also making statements such as, ‘Shoot cops, kill cops,’ things like that. So there was cause for concern to the officers.”

    I want to know if anyone would buy a used car, or a used mule, from Capt. Rousset?

    The investigation concluded that Mace Hutchinson was indeed tasered 19 times. The police department installed $400 Taser-cams on all the Tasers. Not one officer saw any need to “deploy” their Taser in the weeks after the cameras were installed. Imagine that!

  20. David,
    A substantial part of my practice is to evaluate people for competency. If a person is competent, no one can force them to do anything medical. It is against the law. Insurance has absolutely nothing to do with it. The misunderstanding came about because of deliberate distortions by Republicans opposed to the ACA. What was proposed was end of life counseling services if people wanted it. In other words, the ACA would pay for a social worker or psychologist to provide information and counseling about living wills, powers of attorney and helping families preplan if worst came to worst. It is better to be prepared and know what your loved one wants rather than be blindsided by an accident or illness and have to make decisions when emotionally distraught.

    My (then) 16-year-old grandson was competent to refuse further cancer treatments. His parents and the doctors honored his wishes. He did not want to spend whatever time he had left throwing up his toenails, as he put it. He lived three and a half months after stopping treatments.

    End of life issues are a good reason to have both a durable power of attorney and living will. Put your wishes in writing. If it is not in writing, doctors and hospitals are ethically and legally required to use heroic measures, even if you did not want that for yourself. Furthermore, I think eveyone should discuss end of life issues with their whole family and make sure everyone is one the same page. Even the kids should make their wishes known, because accidents and illnesses do happen.

  21. According to the Chicago Tribune’s report on July 28, Mr. Wrana was conscious and talking after the police shot him. He was eventually transported to Advocate Christ Medical Center and it was from this place that the doctor allowed him to speak to his daughter after the doctor told the daughter that he probably wouldn’t survive surgery to correct the damage done to his internal organs by the bean bags.

    Sure enough … he died at 2:30 a.m. … “The Cook County medical examiner’s office said the cause of death was hemoperitoneum – bleeding in the stomach area from blunt force trauma from being shot with a bean bag gun.”


    If one reads the above link and then the link from Aug 2nd below, one questions the need for 5-7 police in and out of the room and their refusal to allow facility staff to try and calm him down … “staff begged to be allowed to try to calm down the old man” … staff also claimed there was no knife. Paramedics, not the facility staff, were the ones who brought in the Park Forest police.


    According to an article in the Chicago Sun Times written on Sept. 17th … ‘The Cook County medical examiner’s office ruled his death a homicide. The Illinois State Police public integrity unit is investigating the incident.” The family is awaiting the results of that investigation before taking further action.

    Interesting little side note from that same article … “The SouthtownStar reported last week that the bean-bag gun used against Wrana hadn’t been used on a call in 10 years. (emphasis mine)

    Wrana’s last words to his daughter as he spoke to her while the doctor held the phone to his ear that night, “Thank you for everything you’ve done for me. I love you and goodbye.”

  22. Help with post please … I only used two links and although it is long there are several quotes worth the read. I should have copied it before posting just in case wordpress acted up but failed to do so. It’s too long to do again. If any of you find it and can clear it, I would very much appreciate the effort.

  23. OS: I can already see the problem developing here. You’re bringing up end-of-life issues while David’s obsessed with end-of-world issues.

    Meanwhile, I think it’s hilarious that he delivers “his” babies at home. Who would have guessed. I’m sure it was smooth sailing the whole way…for him.

  24. The police officers should be tried for MURDER! No excuses, no defenses. What kind of country have we become that police officers believe that this kind of conduct is acceptable. Police are now threats to human safety and should not be called in an emergency. They cannot be trusted.

    I am furious both for the the situation and because I am fairly certain that things are going to get much worse with police. They are being taught that they are all heroes and that that they are the law. We are all at risk.

    My heart goes out to this mans family.

  25. Interesting fact … The Park Forest Police Department has 42 sworn officers (according to their web site) which means that close to 15% of said officers were involved in the Wrana homicide.

  26. RTC,
    Yup. For him. Carol Burnett once described what it was like to deliver a baby. She said to just grab your upper lip with both hands and pull it up over the top of your head.

  27. OS,

    Have you seen any of the govt’s maps, with the stats on where the cancer clusters in the US are?

    Do you have a link?

    One is said to be a about 70 mile strip of petro/chemical plants from New Orleans to close to Baton Rouge.

    Now it’s rumored that cancer rates are increasing all along the Gulf of Mexico because the BP spill.

    I haven’t been through the area.

    I’m sure there are also areas around Tulsa that are the same.

    Those cancers/illnesses can be shown to be directly related to industrialization.

    Even if as a society we decide to except the trade off of industry for health problems industry/royalties should be used to pay for the medical care.

    The Dems & Repubs plans never address healthcare in this manner.

    They create the problems they give us & now they demand we pay the bill for the injury they’ve caused.

  28. To the journalist(s) who are responsible for this story posted here: don’t you feel any sort of obligation to offer a link to a petition to reply to the authorities responsible for this outrage, and punish those responsible? Just to publish a story of such a clear and dangerous violation of our rights without any recourse to action is insufficient. A journalist is not like a natural scientist observing and reporting on insect behavior. A journalist has a responsibility to help the situation if possible. And with the resources of the Internet, it is more possible than ever before. I ask you please to provide a link to a petition about this. Thanks!

  29. Re: Taking care of your own & family’s healthcare yourself outside the AMA monopoly.

    A few of the many cases, in which the parents went to prison for not taking they kids to doctors, the parents were members of the Church of the First Born.

    It seems there was one case here in Oklahoma & another in Washington state, both CotFB.

  30. Blouise, thank you muchly for your additional information and the link to the Chicago Tribune article. The Mail Online article was unclear on which operation would leave him dead or on life support and the clarification was informative.

    Here in unincorporated St. Louis County a cop show up with the paramedics to insure that there is no threat to the paramedics, if you don’t want the cop coming in the paramedics don’t have to come in. Over-reach by the government IMO. Coercive in the extreme.

  31. Severe wrist slaps is the most these officers will face. It’s a lock. In these United States cops are licensed killers.

  32. Stories like with this 95 yr old Vet are a horrible thing for Americans to see day after day.

    It beats it into our heads don’t call the cops, don’t call the doctors, be afraid, be very afraid.

    So what it does is harm the efforts of decent police & those of the medical community.

    This can not be allowed to continue demoralizing everyone in the country no matter whatever their station in life is.

  33. I would be quite curios to hear the exculpatory arguments of the Officers involved because I can’t even think of a fanciful explanation that would make sense.

  34. Inappropriate violence & downright murder is almost endemic in the police forces of this country. One way it could get worse is if they let the psychs (psychiatrists) in to ‘fix’ the problem, as occured with the Post Office in the eighties, the colleges & the schools before & since. Now we are seeing a wave of violence from the military, not on the battlefield. You can bet psych drugs are involved.
    One note of optimism… I’ve been working in Montana recently & have seen cops in action here be as polite & unassuming as I remember country bobbies in England during the sixties. But they still get their questions answered & the situation resolved. I’m sure there are exceptions, but it proves it can be done correctly.

  35. lotta,

    A 95-96 year old wobbly man who couldn’t walk without the aid of his walker was sitting in his chair when the police entered his room behind riot shields.

    The staff said there was no knife, just his walker and cane.

    The gun that fired the bean bags hadn’t been used in 10 years.

    The Medical Examiner ruled it a homicide.

    What the Illinois State Police find in their investigation and what action the Prosecutor takes are of interest to me and I intend to follow up especially as it concerns the command structure within the Village of Park Forest Police Department.

    Right now I suspect that dressing up a bunch of village cops in riot gear to go after a 95 year old man was a decision made by command.

  36. The Mail is a lousy source. Take the time to look at the link…note the right hand column. All the news fit for the Kardashians. Further, The Mail used two other sources to write the article: The Tribune, which is fine. The other (and quoted more extensively)? The Blaze, Glenn Beck’s news site.

    I despair.

  37. Just when we think things can’t get any worse……they do. And we say this every day, every day, every day, every day, every day, every day………it just keeps getting worse!!!

  38. Oh please! This is sickening. It seems like we have more than a few disturbed and out of control police officers running the streets. He was threatening the officers with a “shoe horn and a knife” C’mon! – they shot him ” first with a stun gun and then with a bead bag fired from a shotgun.”
    Some big, brave macho nuts wearing a badge. This is no better than the sicko who shot and killed a baby in a stroller!

  39. The sad irony is that Park Forest Village was one of those nationally planned communities established in 1949 to provide housing for veterans returning from World War II. Veterans like Mr. Wrana. I guess the Park Forest Village Police Department lost the memo.

  40. Blouise, I too will be interested to see what the follow-up is. If you re-iterated the facts perhaps thinking that I misunderstood more than which treatment would kill him, I appreciate the effort but it’s not necessary. Which treatment might kill him (or not) doesn’t change the nature of my posting or the absolute revulsion that his murder at the hands of the police occurred. Knowing your finely honed sense of outrage and, if I may ascribe a trait to you, your hatred of injustice, I suspect that the recounting of facts was as much in disgust of the event as anything else. it is pretty amazing isn’t it? What Feringlab said above was also one of my first thoughts.

    To digress slightly, I’ve taken a break from World War Z, second time viewing. Serious zombie action, linear action, heavy, over the top action and zombie violence from the get-go. Why do people watch movies like this one?

    30 years ago (I have been a science fiction/horror movie and book fan since forever) I read the first of many articles that attempted to answer that question regarding horror movies. The article postulated that people have always like horror tales because they allow the horror of everyday life (including the perceived lack of control over it) to be bound up into an experience that is understandable (within the internal logic of the story) and resolved most often with the good guys prevailing. Or at least some lesson or knowledge worth knowing being imparted.

    That’s the short form. A cathartic experience to alleviate anxiety. Science fiction more generally reflects in a direct way certain current cultural, political and social trends but horror is all about anxiety. Gore as a genera is something else entirely and I’m not sure it’s a good thing.

    I recall thinking a few years back that this (last 10 years or so) has been a golden age of sci-fi, horror and gore movies and that that may be a boon to fans but maybe it says something about us as a society. I don’t know. I read the news for awhile, a few days or so and a good horror or sci-fi movie is magically on my queue to watch or re-watch. Hmmmmm.

    I’m probably over-thinking it, it’s a Brad Pitt movie -it doesn’t have to be much more deep than that :-)

  41. lotta,

    “I suspect that the recounting of facts was as much in disgust of the event as anything else …” Yep, you know me well.

    As to the original reading of the Mail’s account, I can see how the confusion began but I knew once you saw the Tribune and especially those smaller local papers’ reports, your sense of the injustice done to Mr Wrana would go even deeper. Do you know that the Tribune misspelled his name in their original reporting because the Police Department had gotten that wrong too in their reports?

    I kid you not, the Chief of that police force should be very glad I don’t live in his village.

    I never developed a taste for horror and I think I know why. I was little and we had gotten our first television. We got in late one night and I ran to turn on the new “toy”. The livingroom was dark, and the program on the TV showed a woman who was standing in the corner of her bedroom screaming as a big snake crawled out of the covers at the foot of her bed. I screamed and ran upstairs. To this day I keep one foot outside the covers … just in case I have to run and I never watch horror flicks.

  42. Oh No! Blouise, never, NEVER, leave an appendage out from under the covers. Appendages, especially feet are like handles and the covers are like an invincible shield. They/it etc. can only get you if you leave them an unshielded handle. Srsly. :-) No, srsly, I know these things… LoL.

    Great story about that TV show having such an impact; it’s strange the things that leave such deep marks on our behavior throughout our lives. The real monsters of course aren’t even on TV or the big screen.

    Yeah, I caught that, they spelled his name wrong, I saw the correction:

    “(Editor’s note: This story originally misspelled the victim’s last name, based on incorrect reports from police and the medical examiner’s office. The name has been corrected.)”

    That’s some sad sh*t right there.

  43. The family of this gentleman has my complete sympathy and the police officer (s) in full riot gear ????? For one frail 95 year old man ?? What is happening in our country to allow such actions as this to happen in the first place ? This is just insane people , this nation has got to wake up and realize this is just wrong and someone needs to be tried for murder.

  44. RWL Asked:
    ‘But seriously. If you were the officer/captain, handling the call, how would you handle the situation?”

    I am really at a disadvantage since we here don’t have the layout of the room he was in, whether or not he actually possessed the knife, his demeanor and / or demands he was making specifically. But here is my best shot in the dark.

    First order of business would be to clear out any unnecessary persons from the room he was in and secure it so that people will not come in and cause surprises or if he can suddenly run out if he was carrying a knife.

    Next begin the dialogue with him and try to see where he is and where he is coming from. It would be very encouraging to convince him to sit down to contain him. (of course doing this from a reasonably safe distance as can be afforded. )

    The knife issue is really the key here and what his intentions could be with it. THe taser is out because of his advanced age. I personally don’t agree with the use of bean bags guns so I wouldn’t have one available. The best situation is to have him drop the knife and kick it over to the opposite side of the room and continue dialogue. Still the knive wielding is dangerous and officers must keep in mind the situation can for whatever bizarre and tragic reason go bad.

    In a situation such as this, one has to try (and it is not going to be accurate completely) to determine what the man finds purpose in the knife. If it is “I’m going to hoark anyone that steps foot in here.” He should be treated as a high risk, dangerous patient and there should be an expectation it can go badly. Not to rush in, but to be prepared. If the knife is a symbolic form of resistence or (in his mind) defense to what he believes the medical staff wanting to perform surgery he doesn’t want that is more workable. You could say it might be a form of bargaining chip that he has created for himself.

    If he just has a standard shoehorn cane, I think two or three officers, if talking wasn’t working and they needed to take custody of him could flank him with a winter coat wrapped around one arm in case he swings and take it away from him.

    The core of the problem is the man’s frailty and propensity for him to be gravely injured. But officers have to protect themselves or other staff if the man (speaking just from the mindset that anything can happen) Time can be another issue.

    If the knife is NOT a factor and the man is flailing around swinging the cane a tactic that works in the jails is to grab a few mattresses by several officers and hold them long side up, forming a phalynx rom and pressing him up to a wall. This basically traps him in place and prevents him from assaulting officers.

    There is another aspect that COULD be considered, but I don’t have much confidence in being the case. It might have been a deadly force situation and rather than shoot him they instead bean bagged and tased him. Both improper uses but better than shooting. But it went tragic.

    The fact that the man was shot multiple times with the bean bag COULD be indicative of this but again, I don’t have the official report so I am at best guessing based upon what I know from a common procedural standpoint.

    Another aspect to consider was is it the case where the man was just outraged about the medical issue and making a big scene? If he was it is not a police matter. So if this incident started from that dispute, the room was cleared, I have to say a big part of whether this was warranted (in retrospect) would have been could time and patience returned a positive result here?

    Blouise brings up a kep piece of information that unfortunately wasn’t considered by the police at the time. The staff would certainly know among themselves, the employee who this man trusts and likes the most. And if he or she is willing to be an interlocutor (after the scene is stabalized and she can talk to him from a safe position) She can be instrumental in bringing this to a close, working with the police and the patient.. Sometimes some police have a need to rush in and take charge, pushing out everyone else but the police. I have noticed that this is unfortunately a spillover or artifact caused by the totallity of police training and you can see this manifest itself at bad times/places. There is training to address this but it often never goes away.

    Again, I don’t have the full amount of information so I could be way off.

  45. RWL

    Almost all the ones I have heard were generally carried by Animal Control officers and Fish and Wildlife officers to be used on animals. Their use in my experience was rare. As for regular patrol units, I’ve never seen someone carry one. It might be different in Alaska though. But where I’m at I have only see a tranquilizer gun once and it was an old relic buried back in the armoury.

    The problem with the use of the tranqilizer on a person is that it contains a type of drug that a person has to be licensed to inject into another person. In our state it is illegal to do this. There are also issues with allergic reaction that the person might have and it could flare a drug interraction with something the person is taking. Pllus, you have to deal with dosage issues related to size etc.

    Even animal control officers who put animals down with barbituates have to be licensesd and trained along with inventory control of the vials due to state and DEA requirements. All things considered, along with the risks, it is just not feasable for police to carry these.

  46. RWL.
    Tranquilizer dart guns use several different chemicals. One of the most common is a neuroleptic, which is the proper term for an antipsychotic drug. One such drug is Haloperidol, which is labeled as Haldol. Other drugs are powerful anesthetics, such as Sodium thiopental, also known as Sodium Pentothal. It is the first drug of the three-drug cocktail administered in lethal injections. Another is propiopromazine, a phenothiazine derivative made by Bayer under the brand name Combelen. Most of the dart guns use veterinarian certified drugs which are not approved for human use by the FDA. Anesthetics and other such drugs depress respiration, and can cause death, especially in the elderly. Additionally, neuroleptics can cause seizure like muscle rigidity, which could be life threatening, particularly in an elderly person or child.

    All things considered, I would not want to be shot with a dart that could stop a charging boar hog in its tracks.

    I read what Darren wrote. I have worked in nursing home facilities and am familiar with that population. Considering he was in his mid-90s, if I had been there, I would have walked up to him, and if I could not get him to give me whatever he was waving around, I would have taken it away from him. All I would need is a large towel wrapped around my forearm as a shield to protect my head and torso. This would not be like giving a violent inmate the bum’s rush to subdue him.

    That crew of officers appear to be undertrained weenies.

  47. As to the bean bag and shotgun combo:

    “Deputy Police Chief Mike McNamara said the officer who shot the gun had fired it in training, but it had not been used on a call in more than 10 years.

    The police department’s policy manual says shooting the bean-bag gun should be considered as a “use of force greater than the use of the police baton but lesser than deadly force …”

    An officer shooting the shotgun should take into consideration the target’s “physical factors,” including age, size, relative strength, skill level, injury/exhaustion and the number of police officers versus the subject, according to the manual.

    It states that officers must complete an approved training course to use the gun and that a watch commander shall authorize the use of a bean-bag gun before it is used.


    Physical factors of the target:
    A. age – 95
    B. size – slight and unable to stand without assistance
    C. relative strength – wobbly
    D. injury/exhaustion – 95 year old suffering from an infection
    E. number of police officers versus the subject – 5/7 to 1

    Name of Watch Commander who authorized use of bean bad shotgun on target – not published
    Name of officer who fired the beanbag shotgun – not published
    Training Certificate for officer who fired the beanbag shotgun – not available

  48. OS & Darren,

    Interesting info! I guess I am shocked that they didn’t try those techiniques. Are they trained to use your tactics (mentioned above) in the Police Academy? Are they trained to use less lethal methods for resolving certain situations? Or are they trained to kill first, then think about what you could’ve better, later? It just seem so odd.

  49. Chuck:

    I would agree in principle to what you are saying but a knife can be much more risky than one can expect, even if the person carries it is weak. I had to wrestle a large kitchen knife out of a guy’s hand one time during a fight and despite using both of my hands and banging his hand against a column until I knocked the knife free he still managed a good cut in my hand in the process. So the knife to me requires a little more precaution. But, I still don’t feel events necessitated the response that unfolded.

  50. RWL

    Generally the training you mention SHOULD be lengthy and thourough on all the points you bring up. It starts with the academy (generally) and then becomes part of conntinuing education.

    Every state is likely to be different. I can only speak for WA because it is where I worked. There are shoot / don’t shoot situations, and ones where you are taught when to use what. A good tool that has been around for maybe a little over 20 years is the FATS system. (Firearms training simulation) It is essentially a life sized game with a projection screen that displays situations and the officer is required to act to it. The pistol used is linked up to the computer and there are other options such as Taser, night stick and pepperspray. The system records what happens and measures reaction time, where the shots hit, and scores based upon if the action was justified or not. There are lesser tech approaches known as Mock Scenes which are more role playing.

    As for your question as to whether or not it is kill first or not there is a concept called the Force Continuum where based upon the total situations known to the officer it addresses the level of force to be used , if any. It differs from location to location or department but it generally is as follows:

    Deadly Force (Firearm / Knife / Impact weapon to throat or head Nick hold)

    Impact weapon (nightstick metal flashlight) to knee / elbow / upper shoulder)

    Impact weapon to thigh / forearm / upper arm / hip

    Chemical Spray / OC && TASERS

    Shoves kicks, punches and pain compliance holds

    Moving defendant and light escorting, compliant handcuffing.

    Verbal commands directed at person

    Officer being present with other person.

    (note: I don’t know where exactly the bean bag would be used since I haven’t been trained in it but I would guess it would be the upper impact weapon level)

    For the most part an officer would determine at what proper level of threat the suspect requresented to the officer or others and based upon that locate (based upon training) the level to be used. If it is not effective the foce can be ratcheted up. Sometimes in dangerous situations, where warranted it might be at the top. The training is to hope the minimal force is used. Now, there is a caveat that there have been officers wounded, or even killed by approaching the situation too far below the threat level and they are overwhelmed and victimized. Complacency is usually the reason. That said it is best to use one’s experiences and vigilance to get it right the first time and adjust quickly if needed.

    hope this helps

  51. This deserves investigating and even more so the badges of those directly involved should be put out of service PERMANATELY…..sensless….. bunch of cronies from the stomping ground of our P.O.T.U.S………. Imagine that !

  52. This poor man. If that urinary tract infection had progressed far enough, which it sounds like it may have, it could have caused some pretty severe mental confusion. Perhaps if PD had spoken with the paramedics prior to calling in the “SWAT TEAM” he may have seen his 96th birthday. Of course, strapping on the riot gear is way more fun, apparently.
    And, no Wallace, this ISN’T Obama’s fault.

  53. This is a tragedy that didn’t have to happen. Unfortunately, the thug murderers in police uniforms will get paid vacations. They’ll also receive some kind of award from their union and probably their fellow cops too. The positive reinforcement will only increase the frequency of these events.

  54. Darren,

    With this info, that you provided, then can we really blame the officers for using the kind of force they utilized to tame the ol’ geaser, I meant to say gentleman? :)

  55. Darren,
    Maybe it is just me, but I have had to separate people from sharp objects without too much difficulty. Having been born with fast twitch muscles and good eye hand coordination is a mixed blessing, because I have been known to go where I probably shouldn’t. Usually, I am good with talking and never need to get frisky.

    What works for me may not work for everybody else.

  56. going to post the link and allow all of you to read for yourselves what is being said about why our elderly VETERANS are being killed off…

    This week, American war veterans in Los Angeles await a court decision that would return the Veterans National Home to them. The land had been stolen from them by gangsters and politicians, two groups most Americans now know are one and the same.

    However, they fear the judge is under pressure from powerful anti-veteran groups now clearly identified as Israeli-based.

    “Steamrolling” veterans
    American war veterans have been targeted. They have known it for years, but it wasn’t until they were named “terrorists” by Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and “anti-Semites” by Abe Foxman’s Anti-Defamation League that they knew who was out to get them.


  57. Wallace
    Wait. It wasn’t POTUS’ neighborhood. It WAS POTUS. And I understand that Michelle was there, too. The girls were meeting with Ayers, so they couldn’t be there.

  58. lol leave it to Darren to come up with a reason for shooting a 95 year old man. well darren im a 45 year old black woman of small stature and i too have had to wrestle a machete out of a mans hand to save my life. amazingly i managed to do it with further cutting my throat or putting any cuts on him and this happened just one day b4 my 20th birthday. and i still have the scar on my throat today to prove it. so if you managed to get cut by wrestling a knife out of a mans hand and i managed to wrestled a machete out of the hands of a martials arts expert


    and let me not leave out the fact that i am 5’8 and at this time in my life 145 lbs back then i was 5’8 and about 105;lbs give or take a couple lbs as i was a model back then….. this man was 5’10 and about 150-160 also into weight lifting at the time. and im ready to post a pic of my throat to prove my point and a pic of the man who tried to end my life…..

  59. RobinH45,
    Gordon Duff is a well known conspiracy theorist. His credibility is somewhere between nil and none. He makes wild claims, many of them blatantly anti-Semitic, but does not back them up with actual facts or sourcing.

    Here is a bit more on Gordon Duff. There is more where this came from.

    Gordon Duff has even made the SPLC HateWatch list:

  60. If these T-party posters weren’t so lazy, they could have a real field day … and no, I’m not going to give it away to the lazy buggers.

  61. I work as a medication tech. in a nursing home behavioral unit. I find it ironic that staff (and I’m assuming, the family) wanted him treated for the UTI because they loved and cared for him. So, they call the police when he gets combative? He did have the right to refuse care, that is the FIRST thing I learned years ago when training for my job.
    The next thing I learned, you don’t escalate the confrontation. You walk away and come back later. I fault the staff for calling the authorities in the first place. Even IF he did have a knife, remove the wife from his room and leave the area until he calms down.
    So sad that what was an attempt at trying to get him the care he needed to stay alive resulted in his death. The facility AND the cops should be sued. This man’s rights were violated by facility and the police.

  62. I agree with Tim, 3 comments above, and hope that the family fights for him. Which is why God made rifles. Retribution is just another form of justice and perhaps more just.

  63. RWL,
    Don’t EVEN go there. Gene is the expert. Neither one of us wants to be compared to that overweight blowhard wannabe deputy for Joe Arpaio.

  64. **Blouise 1, September 19, 2013 at 11:50 pm

    If these T-party posters weren’t so lazy, they could have a real field day … and no, I’m not going to give it away to the lazy buggers.

    Sorry Blouise, did you say something? :)

    We’ve a bit of tunnel vision over here.

    Seems that Death Star full of traitors, Wallst/City of London Banks/Insur Co’s is now within range, ready to be brought to justice.

    Stay focused & use the Force!

  65. One of the reasons the Founders were opposed to standing armies is the frequency with which rulers deployed soldiers against their fellow citizens. The gradual militarization of local police forces has the effect of psychologically isolating them from the communities they serve. In my view, they are becoming something akin to occupying forces, so that every 911 call provokes a response similar to an assault against rebellious groups opposed to the occupation. This trend is intensifying and it is far more dangerous than most of us are prepared to admit.

  66. This is horrible… As someone commented about the police showing up for a call in riot gear for something not at all earth shattering. What in the world is going on? I know of something that happened recently to a friend of mine. It was over speeding tickets and failure to appear for a hearing he knew nothing about as he didn’t receive anything in the mail. The three constables just walked right in his house while he was sleeping, came upstairs and one of them backhanded him across the face while another held a taser in his face. Then they badgered him about who else was in the house with him and told them that they couldn’t find this person in the house when that person was up in the attic in his bed sleeping too. The only thing I can think is that they could smell his girlfriends cologne because she left for work a short time before they showed up. They wouldn’t let him take his wallet or cell phone to the jail so he had to call from there. Then processing at the jail wanted $200. He said the other inmates had their phones with them. It’s not like this person was ever in much trouble. Who or what did these constables think they were taking in? It looked to me like some sort of bad communications. Please comment on either story. Tell me what’s going on.

  67. RobinH45 Said: “lol leave it to Darren to come up with a reason for shooting a 95 year old man. well darren….”

    No. It wasn’t Darren. It was me, coming up with a reason for shooting/tasing the 95 year old. As Darren pointed out earlier, we don’t have all the facts of the incident. This article doesn’t state how many times they told the 95 year old to either drop the knife and/or calm down? We also will have to wait until the autopsy report comes back to see what the immediate cause of death was?. But what do you do if he is not calming down, and won’t put down the knife (if he had one on him)? Darren and OS came up with pretty good ideas.

    If I was one of the first officers on the scene, I would have done a Steven Segal move on him……

  68. ” I would have done a Steven Segal move on him…”

    I find it just about inconceivable that with a frail elder of limited mobility that it was not possible to clear the area of civilians, set up a perimeter, and isolate the elder till he calmed down or fell asleep.

    With peers like me the EMTs and LE could find themselves facing charges of elder abuse and felony murder – in some parallel universe, of course.

    BTW, RobinH45, good work, but next time feel fully justified to use a gun.

  69. …and the jackboots will be sent on vacation with pay, until their friends think it’s blown over enough that they can come back…. to shoot someone else. Makes me sick. These people should be held to the laws that they are supposed to enforce. That elderly man’s life was worth 10 of those pigs.

  70. yankeefarmer,
    If you have more than two links in a comment, the spam filter will snag it. I went ahead and pulled it out for you, but if you keep it to a limit of two links in a single comment, it will not block the comment. On the other hand, the spam filter is quirky lately and catches some comments for no apparent reason.

  71. I looked on the Chitown news sources and found nothing to indicate that anyone has tased the cops or the police chief in retaliation yet. Since tasers are not lethal, everyone ought to have one and everyone ought to get to use one in a case like this where retribution is needed.

  72. When the police get overly ambitious in their job, Maybe it is because the Gov had told them to get more forceful and the masses will be more afraid of them. The bottom line is that we are now UNDER THEIR CONTROL and we will now obey and not respond to their wishes.

  73. Elderly people often become completely disoriented when they have a UTI. The fact that the nursing home personnel didn’t realize this and inform the police makes them culpable as well. This is disturbing on so many levels. We are becoming more violent as a society daily, it seems.

  74. Internal affairs will say they did nothing wrong. They always do. Police here in Portland have gotten away with murder several times.

  75. What Mike A. said, in boldface, underlined and followed by a grammatically inappropriate number of exclamation points.

    And what OS said, RWL. As one who has studied Aikido, I’d just like to say “Ewwwwww!” Seagal gives a wonderful martial art – which I might add is one of the few that has a truly structured philosophical and ethical component to it that is ultimately non-violent and required in the training – a very bad name. However, if it came down to no other choice than a physical confrontation with a 95 year old man (and I do mean NONE – bfm’s “wait him out” tactic would have been my first avenue aside from talking him down), he could have been disarmed with relatively minimal risk to either party. It would be far easier and less risk than disarming a child even. I say this as someone who has disarmed physically healthy young adults with knives twice before (one man, one woman – although I disarmed the man with a piece of 2×4, only the woman was strictly hand to hand) and when left with no other option – a considerably more dangerous proposition. It’s only something you do when absolutely necessary and, yes, it carries some risk, but the risk posed by a sick 95 year old man is primarily to himnot from him. The joint lock techniques will make him drop the weapon, but at his age, simply using any of them on him runs a huge risk of breaking bones even under the most controlled circumstance and the tissue trauma is likely to be severe and difficult to recover from at his age and in bad health to begin with. But he would have survived. The bottom line here is that any scenario where physical measures beyond basic self-defense techniques becomes necessary and therefor reasonable is almost impossible to imagine. And I have a really good imagination. In my opinion, this was a gross and negligent overreaction by the so-called LE professionals.

  76. The facility has to take some ownership too! The resident has rights that obviously were ignored based on the article. He has the right to refuse an operation…how about some Ativan to calm him down and some Cipro for the UTI! This unfortunate incident starts with the facility failing to either have or follow proper protocol to subdue this man!

  77. ospreysun hit the mark… just like with the recent football player who was shot and killed. He had his hands out stretched in front of him showing he had nothing. Trying to get help (he was injured in a car accident) shot and killed. If they would pause and think instead of shoot. No weapon now what do I do? Instead of KILL KILL KILL!!! What strength does this 95yo have over a young cop who has been trained to take away a weapon. No common sense on anyone’s part complete breakdown. sure he was going to die. but didn’t need to die this way.

  78. There are two stories here:
    One is the use of outlandish police force which dovetails nicely with the increase of stories concerning the rise of SWAT team/ militarized police forces across the country.

    The second, less overt, is the story of forced medical treatment, which precipitated the unfolding of events ( but by no means justifies the force used by police). The article in Chicago Times and this blog does not have enough information provided or known, to determine whether the vet was declared incompetent, legally, to make his own medical decisions, or if his family members or someone else had guardianship. UTI’s often cause mental confusion. Who determined that he needed to seek hospitalization for treatment of such ? What is the facilities legal responsibility in all this?

  79. Lisa,

    15-20 years ago people would have thought I was foolish for suggesting that patrolmen/swat should not be allowed to carry any other weapons other then night stick.

    That or a gun with only one bullet.

    All other firearms/bullets should be held by the Captain & only issued to the patrolmen on his orders.

    Removing their weapons will force them to use their brain to find solutions to the situation.

    Another way is to just take all the police’s weapons & leave the citizens as the only ones armed.

    If the patrolman needs a weapon he has to ask a citizen to help him.

    The trouble with that is most citizens are to lazy to assume responsibility for policing their state/nation.

  80. I think it’s time for all police officers to undergo training for the elderly. You can’t handle them like you would handle a young 20+ old person. What they don’t realize is that a lot of elderly people sometimes have issues with memory loss and will fight you b/c they think your out to hurt them. The best thing to do in that situation is back off for a while and let them calm down, then try to rationalize with them again. I don’t understand why a police officer would even want to use a stun gun on a elderly person, they can’t move if you get out of their way. The police force better be glad it wasn’t my dad…I would pin them to the wall so quick and have all their jobs. Police are just to quick to use force on people, maybe stun guns should not be the first choice, especially with older people.

  81. What kills me is why the police officers when they shoot someone they aim to the chest or the head? why can’t shoot the person in the legs at least he can stay alive. We need gun control from the police. they are killing citizen for no reason. This is abuse of power, elimination. the men survive two wars and got killed because he refuse to go to the hospital. they have no right to force him to do anything he does not want to do. In this situation, sedation can gets him help not the gun. I am SICK OF THEIR BEHAVIOR, we need reform.

  82. OK1

    In the Mid 80’s I participated in studies of whether it was feasible to convert patrol units in America to model those of general English patrol units, that is not carrying firearms except for special units that had to be called .Similar to what you are describing.

    The conclusion of that study was the due to the historical and prevalent ownership by both law abiding citizens, criminals, and the propensity for some in our culture to resort to firearms easily it was decided that more officers would be killed in the line of duty and the suggestion that criminals would not arm themselves because there was no need since the police did not carry firearms was wishful thinking at best.

    The outcome was that police should be better trained in the use of the firearms as to accuracy and when or when not to use them.

    A few years after that study, more and more events began happening that convinced the administrations of various police agencies was the police were being outgunned by heavily armed criminals. There had been incidents in the 1970s and 1960 such as the Texas Tower incident but they were beginning to fade from memory.

    The North Hollywood Shootout really showed some glaring holes in equipment police carried. And after that and some other incidents have caused many departments to add more rifles and such to prevent things from getting out of hand. For a while a sort of arms race was developing where police units were seeing how much budget they could get to mitigate these threats.

    How necessary any of this is controversial even among police groups. But there is a saying that it’s better to have it and not use it than to need it and not have it.

    As for your suggestion for having supervisors possibly carry the rifles or higher force weapons and drive them to the scene. That is one way of doing it, but the main drawback to this is time. Something can go bad very quickly and time can be not on your side. For people who work alone in outlying areas it is unworkable. Myself, the district I was assigned in the county was 600 square miles and I was almost always the only deputy working it. So in that sense I generally had equipment with me.

  83. My heart goes out to the family. How tragic. What idiots. I hope they are fired and put up against the wall and had those bean bag shots fired at them.

  84. Those cops won’t get shit, but a slap on the wrist. Like suspended WITH pay!! I’ll tell ya this….if that was my 96yr old father…those cops would be paying BIG TIME. But they don’t give to shit’s. TO SERVE AND PROTECT!! This man was to be respected…not killed. Such BS!!

  85. pretty sad when a police officer is so weak that a 96 year old man is such a threat. Even if he had a knife a 96 years old man would not be able to hurt them with the shields they had. If I were one of those cops I would be looking over my should for the rest of my life waiting for retaliation from someone. such a state the world is in.

  86. I feel almost guilty. Our local fire and rescue came out and familiarized themselves with my home, exits, etc. since I have MS and fall often. Those falls can be dangerous if I hit my head. They told me while I was saying, I hate to call you guys when all I need is something sturdy to pull myself up with and I don’t have anything, and they told me about the old lady. She calls about once a month and they go out, with a blanket. The guy with the blanket is the one who knocks, and when she comes to the door, he gently wraps her in it because she comes to the door completely undressed. They all go in then, and let her pour coffee for them and serve them whatever she’s baked that day. He said, we know that she’ll come to the door like that, so we’re ready. And we’ll always go, because one of these days, she won’t come to the door. That’s our job. And honestly, do you know in the first few minutes after a fall how badly you’re hurt. I acknowledged that I don’t. I’m not doing inventory. I’m trying to get up. He said right. But do this for us. Don’t try to get up. Just push the button on your cell phone and we’ll come every time. We’ll make sure you don’t have a back or neck injury before we move you, and based on what you can tell us about the fall, we may just put you on a backboard and neck collar and transfer you to the city ambulance so you can get X-rays. Maybe 50 times the X-rays will be clear. But that one time that they’re not, you’ll be glad we always answer and we’re so careful, because if we had moved you that time, with a spinal injury, we would have crippled you for life. It’s our job to answer. We never mind. I’m lucky. I have compassionate men and women listening to me and understanding how much pride gets whacked in those falls. And they understand an old lady who gets lonely and isn’t very good at making those judgment calls most of us can. They don’t commit her; she’s capable of living alone. They just take a blanket and are glad when she answers the door.

  87. “Cops are out of control””

    i don’t always blame individual officers. Sometime I agree that it is inappropriate to second guess LE who have to make decisions too rapidly with too little information.

    But Some where we took a wrong turn.

    We have been arming are training LE to respond like light infantry. And now they are demonstrating the results of that training.

    Some events cry out for citizens to make clear that something is terribly wrong and demand change.

    This is one of those cases.

  88. Darren Smith,

    I seen some loose FBI or DOJ stats the other day the AP put out.

    Chiraq/Chicago is now the murder capital of the world. I think it’s a complete gun free zone. NYistan is #2.

    AP gave no numbers but said across the South violent crimes continues to drop. Guns everywhere down here.

    I’m sure one of reasons is a large number of youth & no opportunities for employment with no in home fathers to help guide them in Chicago.

    In most all of the US most of us are over fifty & are not out running the streets at night, etc.

    In 2 or 3 years it will be over 50% of the USA will be over 50.
    :) Another report I think said Adult Diapers are hitting around $4.7 billion a year globally.

    With the Texas Tower incident armed citizens I believe were 1st on the scene & along with a few police rushed the guy.

    It was later found out the guy had a brain tumor that mostly likely made him nuts.

    It appears at the Naval yard shooting the SWAT team was ordered to stand down.

    ( I hate commenting on an issue just from news reports & until the dust has settled as details are always murky.)

    Yes, the North Hollywood Shootout & the govt starting/suppling the drug war changed the publics & many in LE’s view.

    I find an interesting way to look at some of these issues is the story of the rescue of US/foreign workers by Ross Perot’s people back during the Iranian hostage crises.

    The rescuers knew if they had weapons on them they’d mostly end up in a shoot so they intentional went in unarmed.

    The video interview I heard they said later that being unarmed & luck was the only reason they made it out because they were forced to use their wit.

    But you have a very valid point about your own career & being out in the middle of no where.

    That’s one of the biggest reasons I support the 2nd amd. I’ve known older people that live out away from the cities & even the ones in town are not as able to say fist fight any more to defend themselves & the police are 15-30-minutes away.

    I’m not sure of the history of how people policed the states/nation as it started. I remember reading for a very long time every male of age was required to join the local militia, which I guess was run by the sheriff?

    What I do know is that the citizens & the police today have to have confidence & trust in each other & the move towards militarizing the police across the nation hasn’t helped goal.

    I see most of the reasons for crime is the criminality that comes directly out of actions/policies of Wallst,DC & the State house.

    That we should 1st fight the criminals at the top of the food chain & that would likely decrease the crime at the bottom of the food chain.

    Getting rid of the poisons out of the air/water/food/meds would likely reduce the numbers of nuts running around.

    IE: The Naval Yard shooter, Colorado Movie Shooter, etc…, most of them on big pharma, doc prescribed, meds.

    Hopefully some of craziness has peaked.

    Below: Tulsa PD successfully deal with another wacko. God knows what the lunatic was on.


  89. I’ve saved a few other LE type links somewhere here, anyway the point being, I do see many citizens & LE working to correct the many issues that concern us all.

  90. In Austin a few years back, 12 cops couldn’t figure out how to subdue an elderly, mentally ill woman in a wheelchair, so they just shot her like 55 times. I have NO RESPECT FOR COPS. Period. Despise them.\

  91. idapearlsmusings,

    There was one like that in OKC 4 or 5 months back.

    A guy out on a burglary charge didn’t check in with the probation person.

    His girlfriend had no criminal record.

    OKPD as I recall, & 7 or 8 different Fed agencies boxed their car in on an off ramp & opened fired, both were killed.

    The next news report change the story a small bit & I never heard any more about it.

    I understand what you’re saying.

    You could, with as many anger citizens as their are, raise you an army, take the US over, but then you’re right back to where we are today.

    How are you going to police this place?

    Doesn’t make more sense to attempt to fix the problem without creating a larger one?

    Like at least 51% citizens on a paid, rotating internal review board & demanding grand juries & prosecutors filing charges against law breaker inside LE.

    One thing is certain, the way it is now is going to change, hopefully for the better.

  92. Well I’d hate to have anyone either at that facility or tended to by those “paramedics”. All involved should know that a UTI often presents as extreme confusion and even combative behavior in seniors. Massive FAIL. They should all be terminated, from the nurse at the facility to the “officers” that shot him.

  93. Why does the man have a UTI in the first place? Cranberry juice should be a part of the diet of everyone who is vulnerable.

    Ok, he has a UTI. Is there no dr in the facility to prescribe appropriate antibiotics? Why is a trip to the hospital (or dr) necessary?

    From my understanding it was the EMTs doing the transport who called the cops. Why? If it were my dad (ww2 marine) and he didn’t want to go, he would have made all kinds of threats that he would have been too feeble to carry out. A calming voice, preferably female, would have calmed him down and then an explanation of why the trip was necessary would get him to cooperate. The EMTs should have let the staff calm him.

    Just another example of insufficient police training, and I would add EMT training, in dealing with people with mental or physical problems. Their hammers (tasers, guns, etc.) see everything as a nail and to ensure they get to use their “toys” they escalate incidents that should be fairly easy to de-escalate.

  94. why did they need riot gear for a 95 year old man . it make me sick to know. that this man leaved thru a war.to have been killed like that what a shame . land of the free home of the brave for some . its protect and sever I thought .the men that could do that to a man that seen what he seen. the hell of war
    the men who killed that man are not cops they are cowards at best to kill a defenseless man like that. god be with his family.

  95. OK-1. YOu have some good information there. A comple similarities between the Texas Tower incident and the North Hollywood shootout was that the police were outgunned and had to resort to going to sporting goods stores to borrow deer rifles to engage the shooters..

    One way to look at crime is if you follow the unemployment rate and crime rate the crime rate often lags a bit behind the unemployment. There have been periods, such as recently where it hasn’t been as closely related. Some have theorized that there was a factor in increases in consumer price index (inflation) that influences it.

    Each jurisdiction has their own problems but there are a few strategies that seem to work. One community in my district has a small 3 offer police force and a big gang problem. The town was about 1200 persons. Crime Analysis indicated the about 10 gang affilianted individuals were either directly involved, or instigated and facilitated probably 60 to 70 percent of all the crime. It took a protracted effort of increasing patrol, community inovlvement, recruiting confidential informants, and getting the feds involved as many of these problem persons were in the US illegally. Some undercover work did a lot of good. Finally about half a dozen of these key gang actors got picked up and the rest of them a couple months later. The patrols were stepped up to increase the visibility of the police. Long story short the crime in that town dropped 2/3rds. It was no longer cool to be a banger in that community and there are few around. As younger people starting getting into their teens, the gangs were no longer the heros and these kids would grow up normal. It is breaking the generations of gangs that is key.

    It can be done, but larger cities are orders of magnitude more problematic and nuanced. BUt I accept that many will find the procedures used to be controversial but they can be done without violating the rights of the citizenry.

  96. This is where the increasing militarization of our police forces inevitably leads. Very sad. To quote Norm Stamper, former Seattle Police Chief:

    “The paramilitary bureaucracy and the culture it engenders — a black-and-white world in which police unions serve above all to protect the brotherhood — is worse today than it was in the 1990s. Such agencies inevitably view protesters as the enemy. And young people, poor people and people of color will forever experience the institution as an abusive, militaristic force — not just during demonstrations but every day, in neighborhoods across the country.”

    Apparently, not even senior citizens…not even nonagenarians are safe.

  97. This story will be swept under the carpet. There will be no justice for this man. How can a 94 year pose any threat to a well trained ert team. How about someone close to this case pursue it and keep us informed so we can offer support and maybe aid in the prosecution of these officers

  98. With all the terrible stuff you see in the media more and more, about overly abusive police, it’s clear that there are FAR to many police that should have never been issued a gun and badge, and also not trained properly. They are CLEARLY asking for trouble, if this unnecessary violence against citizens, and all living creatures does not stop (shooting dogs…etc). There are many irate citizens in our nation, that are also well armed, that could easily “snap,” and start taking regular potshots at police. They had ALL better stop this needless violence, and learn to deal with situations in a more peaceful, mature, and rational manor. Our nation is TERRIBLE when it comes to violence and abuse of power, next to most other “civilized” nations.

  99. There is no chance that the police will be held accountable. You have more chance of winning the powerball lotto than holding the police accountable for their violence against the citizenry.

  100. What I am really sick of is how some of you keep making excuses for the very VIOLENT POLICE we have today… There is no excuse for what they did. The Nazi’s said they were only doing their jobs to. I hope everyone on here who vacillates and rationalizes these violent actions ends up being beaten by the cops or maybe their family members. Maybe that will get some EMPATHY from you f-ing REPTILES….

  101. THANK YOU OS. Gordons site isnt where i read the story. i added his site because it was the one updated. but again Ty i will no longer post links to his site.

  102. The man was 95. I think if he wants to decline treatment, he has earned that right. He was murdered! A horrible thing to happen to an elderly man. I’m ashamed at the state our countries government.

  103. Miriam:
    This was state-sanctioned nothing. This was a stupid act committed by a stupid cop and the only ones responsible are the responding officers and those who trained them and anyone who should recognized their unfitness for duty. Those held accountable should include the officers, the immediate superiors, and the chief of police. The highest level that blame could possibly rise to is the town’s mayor, but the Governor didn’t cause this and Obama isn’t responsible. Not for this one, anyways.

  104. RTC, I agree individuals are responsible, but the increasing numbers of such incidents across the country with seemingly very little accountability on the part of police in ANY jurisdiction are what cause me to call such incidents state-sanctioned. And please don’t mistake me for an Obama-basher. This problem has been a long time in the making, longer than he has been in office. I think it’s a problem that feeds upon itself–one department sees another acquire tactical gear, then they want it, then comes the training for using such gear, officers begin to unconsciously consider themselves more military than police, and the ante continues to inch up and up with citizens paying the price. But until someone in a position of authority at some level makes an effort to contain it, yes, I’ll consider it state-sanctioned. Absence of action implies consent.

  105. I have been saying for a long time, that the rising incidents of police murdering dogs will finally get people out of their lethargy. It is hard to hear/believe that the murder of an old man, a veteran, should seem OK or acceptable. The police are not ” our friends” , not by a long shot.

  106. This is so blatantly wrong that it calls for a huge outpouring of outraged citizens, and a demand for the police department to undress and remove military gear and tactics, and to require the department to upscale (civilize) recruitment standards and training. The place and address, and telephone, etc. of the station, and the names of the officers should be posted, and large numbers of people should respond. If we care about these things then we should make it unmistakenly known—otherwise brutal tactics will continue to stealthily move into our nation.

  107. I cannot believe this. Even if this guy was a ninja with throwing stars, he was 95 and living in an assisted living facility. He obviously needs some help performing his daily routines, what made a swat team need to use such force? This is just disgusting, they should all be tazed and fired!!! Such a sad story. This man obviously didn’t want medical attention, he probably figured at his age, just let nature take its course. Sickening!!

  108. Cops these days are the biggest cowards, bullies and brainless pu****s ever. In my childhood they atleast tried to talk you down to avoid such things (if you were white) Atleast these days they’re equal opportunity fascistic wussies.

  109. I searched the web news regarding this case. It happened way back on July 27th. I can not even find the name of the perp or perps who shot him. They need to be taken out and frying panned until dead. Then their children tazed. Don’t taze me Bro!

  110. omg, I am getting all these e-mails from this site and I don’t see where I requested this! What can I do? I am still appalled at this behavior. COMPLETELY AVOIDABLE.

  111. Idapearl, leave one more comment in the Leave a Reply box. When you do, it will show “Fill in your details below.” Scroll down beneath that and there are two boxes. Make sure you have NOT clicked either one. Then click Post Comment. I think after that the notices will stop.

  112. ANYONE IN THE MEDICAL PROFESSION who deals with elderly citizens/patients — KNOWS that URINARY TRACT INFECTIONS (UTI’s) cause dementia-like symptoms!!!!!!!!!!!! It can cause combativeness, memory loss, agitation, and disorientation. I’m sickened by this! Not only were the police to blame, but so was the nursing home!!! All he needed was antibiotics — good grief!!! It doesn’t take a hospital for that!!!! Thoroughly disgusted!

  113. I have to wonder how a 95 year old man is a threat , What about freedom of choice if he had the mind to make a choice not to want to go to the hospital then this would be god give right making the choice of how he lives his life and dies…. why did the police not defuse the problem by allowing him his rights under the bill rights and the constipation using force of this kind at close range . Talk about a bad choice

  114. AT his age, and because he was already in a senior facitlity, they should have talked the man into sense, or at least figured a way to restrain that didn’t hurt the man. Old people can be violent sometimes, but I would think the right thing to do would try talking to the man first. Sounds like they stormed him, like a swat team, which surely wasn’t necessary. And I gotta
    agree that if this had been a citizen trying to control the older gentleman they would have gone to jail for it. This kind of thing creates ill will between citizens and police. You never know if a cop is good or bad. That’s sad. I send my sympath to the family. Surely there was a better way.

  115. I know my Daddy, USMC, Korea and Merchant Marine, Philippines, along with all my Uncles who served over in the European Theater along with all my family Vets from Pearl Harbor are rolling over in their graves at what is happening to this country!

    And as far as the embedded video regarding the teen with the broken back tasered by cops – Just how the hell could a teen laying on the ground with a broken back be a threat to the point that cops need to taser him NINETEEN frickin’ times to “keep him from getting into traffic.”! HELLO!!!!!

    These cops all SHOULD BE FIRED and never allowed to “defend the public” ever again! My God! Has this country simply gone insane??? Sounds like the good guys are losing and the Devil is dancing in the streets with joy at all this evil going around! Yo, people! This is America! We have rights, we also have responsibilities to PROTECT the old, infirm, innocent and disabled! AND BTW – the Medicare handbood states quite clearly on page 103 that “Medicare Beneficiaries are to be treated with dignity and respect at all times.” You people in the nursing homes need to respect the wishes of anyone LUCID enough to make their own decisions! Get over yourselves and do your jobs and respect the elderly! Or find another job!

  116. Wow – sounds like murder to me, too. He defended his country only to get killed by an enemy within. Sad. Hope some charges get laid. Interesting posting from Otteray regarding the taser cams. :)

  117. “He said that he understood that not having the operation could kill him but decided against it.” The man was 95, forced medical procedures like operations, that is what is illegal here.

    He was 95, reaching that age, could also “kill him.” Maybe he just figured he could drink cranberry juice, but the juices he could get in his assisted living facility were all from concentrate or had too much sugar or weren’t cold pressed — or something. But so what? Maybe he wanted to drink whiskey and smoke cigars and figured he would pass soon anyway.

    The man did not want to have an operation. Armed people came to try to force him to have an operation against his will.

    You can “declare him incompetent,” if you want, but that just might mean “he doesn’t agree with you, he does not want to have an operation, it is his life and his body and his choice.” Period.

    Please post: the names and ID numbers of the officers, the name of the assisted living facility, the names of the people responsible for trying to force a 95 year old man to have an operation (operations can also kill you, and are probably higher risk that a urinary tract infection — umm hello), so that would include insurance carrier (and the names of the people who issued the “order” along with copies of the paper work), the name(s) of the doctor(s) who made the recommendation that became a case of attempted forced medical torture — which the patient resisted — and was killed in the process of trying to avoid having his human rights violated.

    Your choice of treatment modality is a human right.

    WHO Constitution: “the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health is one of the fundamental rights of every human being…”

    Choosing how you want to deal with a urinary tract infection is included in that basic human right, which is not provided by or formulated by the WHO Constitution, but merely described and documented by it.

    It is very clear that shooting a 95 year old man (even with projectile oft described as “non-lethal”) violates his enjoyment of health.

    Please post names and documentation if your audience is to provide constructive help.

    dainis w michel

  118. JUST A NURSE Being an assisted living facility they don’t usually have the medication for immediate agitation or to knock him out. Have to get near him to do it. One Nursing Home I worked at did have someone threaten with a knife if he couldn’t do something he wanted. He had a plastic knife but they took it as a treat. Yes, many people with dementia can be quite normal acting but 4 pm comes and like a switch was flipped. Called
    Sun Downers. I question the UTI and surgery thing Yes an infection can make you septic and that will kill you. Only thing I can think of is maybe prostrate surgery if he was having problems emptying his bladder thus repeated infections. Some Dr’s will order something others will make you get a urine sample and wait for the lab to come back. The minute you go into a nursing facility or assisted living, hospital you get a booklet of Patient’s Rights Wonder what would happen if he was some highly decorated officer? This situation should never have happened.
    I have never seen the ambulance people abuse any of our patients as you as nurse have to go down with them to the room. I can’t imagine what the other residents are thinking and feeling after this. I have herd one of the NY police say we shoot to kill?? I thought it was shoot to disarm and another told me that is the case. No DRs in the Assisted Living They were taken out to see their Dr. Nursing Home they have one or so but often they come in to sign their monthly orders and maybe see just a couple of patients. We had to call them for everything we needed as to high temp or anxiety. In Nursing Home setting we were also taught how to take down with 2 and it is still very much female occupation. Yes the dog shootings all over are unreal. One officer tried to say the dog was attacking yet the bullet went into the back of the dogs head as he was walking away to go to his garage Bad things happening all over but the I will lie you swear to it is making a lot of people very angry I feel bad for his family.

  119. this is outrageous! Someone should start a petition to have not only the “so called” officers but the nursing home staff as well for murder!

  120. IF the gentleman did have a knife, at 95 yrs old what harm would he have really done, especially with men in riot gear. But to arrive with full riot gear on to a nursing home is still going overboard for a call of a disturbance. These cops nowaway days think like they own this country and it is in lock down mode in a prison. Being a VET myself i feel these cops need to be charged with manslaughter of any type as to prove to these cops that they are not above the law. And the laws are to protect us from them and their over righteous thought that they are the judge, jury and executioners. Where did the compansion go as with the cops of back in the old days of talking to the assailates that are aboviously not a real threat to society. I understand that some people are threats and if i was around them i would do my damdest to stop them myself. But if a vet was involved i would have tried to talk them down before the cops would have acted in a wartime manner of kill before getting killed mentallity. Now i know alot of cops and they are good such people but some to most are power hungry and to young to have the knowledge of older cops. And to have respect for people and yes do your job right but be careful as to the force you use. This is not Russia back in the 70’s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  121. Florence LaMagna Stupid from the start; 1. nursing home staff is at fault if the man has living will he has first say…2. who ever called in for police help did not describe the elderly care problem clearly 3. patient has right to refuse medical attention and family members to be notified first…4. police should have received adequate information of problem w/elderly and deny participation or come as assisting for the good of the patient …5. the nursing supervisor or what ever the tittle, someone in authority could have been the advocate and someone in managerial position should be there at all times… very sad to see the disintegration of the nursing system caring for the elderly… the nursing management is really at fault………. IT IS NOT THE COPS as much as the managerial staff of the nursing home…WHAT THE HELL DID THEY TELL THE police and why the police ????????? They SHOULD have called the family … that nursing home better be reviewing and talking with the police of help with the elderly if that is their source for assisting in transport…

  122. that is what happens when you become the ward of the state.. no personal decisions, only what Nursing homes tell yo to do… these Police should be fired on the spot and the nursing home lose their license.. so sad


  124. it is a sad state of affairs that now the elderly must fear the police that are supposed to be there to protect them, I have been afraid of the police for a long time. I was mugged and left unconscious on the sidewalk. instead of waking up in the hospital , I woke up in jail , it must be illegal to bleed on the sidewalk,why jail and not a hospital?

  125. What do y’all expect the police to do when literally *anybody* they go to deal with could be armed ?
    Ban guns and the reason for police to be so heavy-handed on noral call-outs all but disappears.

  126. My God, Are the people in this country as stupid as some of the comments I have seen here? If so, this place deserves to be nuked by an Enemy – foreign or domestic. THIS OLD MAN WAS MURDERED ! THIS PLACE IS JUST LIKE THE SOVIET UNION WITH NARCISSISTIC SOCIOPATHS RUNNING EVERYTHING and a bunch of abjectly stupid sheep terrified of their own shadows afraid to rise up against it. Hey – Psycho cops – had that been my Dad, I would hunt you down slowly year by year until I had all of you in the grave.


  128. I have worked for nursing facilities for years and a patient has the legal right to refuse medical care at any time, unless they are deemed incompetent! The nursing facility should be held accountable as well. If I were the family, I would get a good lawyer and nail them all to the wall!!! Those involved should be ashamed for treating an elderly man, let alone a veteran that way! SHAME ON THEM>>>May God have mercy on their pitiful souls…that is if they have a soul!!!! ><

  129. Wow I guess things have changed since I worked in a nursing home as a can we were taught patient right number 1 patients have a right to refuse care n meds no force …. now they call the cops when they cant get a patient to do something wtf is the world coming to . next they will be telling us what we can n cant do n calling cops on us for no reason at all .

  130. you pay your taxes, and this is what you are upholding – a closer movement toward military dictatorship. make a stand and stop paying your taxes… it’s going to happen sooner or later, people are not supporting this bullshit anymore.

  131. A 95-year old man…really?! He was that much of a threat they HAD 2 call the police in eah? SHAME on them ALL! That man was NO threat 2 anyone! The real threat is the nursing home that was taking care of him! SHAME SHAME SHAME!

  132. At 95, one gets tired of living. Most loved ones and friends are dead. The poor man should have been treated with gentleness and care, and allowed to forego the operation. The elderly deserve dignity and respect. T
    his is so sad. Brutal arrogance.

  133. This kind of behavior by police is what prompts already irrational people to shoot at a uniform first and ask questions later. If they are going to kill you anyway, why not kill as many of them as you can? Police, for Christ’s sake, don’t use unnecessary force; you are endangering other police elsewhere.

  134. Ok, as far and I know you can refuse treatment and refuse to go to the hospital. When my Mom was in the nursing home, several times she refused to be treated or go to the hospital. So why were the Police called? I would hold who ever called the Police also responsible for this senseless act.The family should have been called first before anyone. Such a sad ending for a decent man.

  135. I am sorry to hear of the sad death of the 95 year old WW2 vet. As an ex-paramedic in the UK I can fully sympatise with the gent in question. As had already been muted, he is 95 years old, and unwell and does not want an operation or anything else (by the looks of the statements) and to be honest, who can blame him, most health care providers do not care about their patients in their care, all they see is the cash they are going to fleece (opps earn) from their top class care (cough, cough). Most of his friends and family are gone, so why on earth can he not die in peace and dignaty and with the love of his family and friends that he has around him now!

    As for the police, yes major shite response from them. Wonder how they would react where a real dangerous criminal gets upset with them? But what about the Paramedics – where the issue started. They could see he was 95, yes 95 and frail and not fully mobile. In addition to the UTI, he would definatly have confusion setting in (if not already there due to the infection). Have they not considered in talking to the gent, talk about the war, his family oh and yes what about him, after all isn’t that that they are there for! And what did they say to their control when asking for help?

    Now for the police, I thought all Police Forces where taught how to talk to people? to try and calm them down????? Again, as already been said they could see the condition of the Gentleman, so even when they turned up in full riot gear, they could have thought “right we don’t need this gear” a couple stay the rest sod off! and talk to the man, instead they shoot him and shock him. I would say I do hope the family do sue the police, but I would also look at the paramedics in this as it is blindingly obvious that they are unable to do their job!

    I would like to see the police report on the incident and then talk to eye-witnesess and see what the difference is. I agree all need to be brought to justice, but I don’t think they meant to kill him….so not sure Murder would stick. I think that Manslaughter is more likely.

    But again, my sincere condonlences go to the family, and the finger to the police and paramedics.

  136. How sad. Do we really need someone to instruct police officers they should not assault a ninety year old man in his nineties in such a vicious manner? I know some police officers would have responded with intelligence and compassion, but these officers were pure evil. I’m not sure proper training would have made any difference. They should be held accountable as well as their superiors. It is illegal to force medical procedures on anyone against their wishes unless they have been judged incompetent. Temporary confusion R/T UTI does not qualify as incompetence. Looks like the EMTs violated the law.
    F.S. Root

  137. this was a 95 yr old sickly gentleman, who had the legal right to refuse any/all medical care… urinary infection/confusion should not be part of the issue ..he refused why was EMT even called to the facility.?

  138. My first thought/question was “why did police need weapons to deal with a 95 year old man in assisted living”? That was followed by the question mark “riot gear?!?!?” Are you kidding me?

    What happened to the wishes of the patient or family?

    This goes to show how narrow the perspective of police can be. They obviously never stepped back to take a 10,000 ft view of the situate. Instead the got tunnel-visioned on an objective and decided that was the only way things would go – with force if necessary.

  139. every person in a nursing home/assisted living center/residential care facility/on their own………….. with or without a guardian has the right to refuse treatments and their medications…………………………this is over kill on the officers part, the paramedics and staff at the facility SHOULD have known his right to refuse treatment

  140. A patient has the right to refuse treatment and to force him to submit is a violation of his rights, BUT as the Communist in charge states you are property of the state and we do what we want with you

  141. I have a walking cane which has a taser device in the end of it that I can activate with the flip of a switch. My nursing home is unaware of its potential. I do not want cancer therapy and as I am 80 years old it should be my choice, but they are talking about getting a court order. When they come for me I will tase them first and ask questions later.

  142. Eich mochter ein double zimmer fur ein nacht.

    All the guy wanted was a double room for one night. They decide to knife him to make him better, he refuses and they electrocute him and shoot him. We need to petition the government of Chicago, the government of Illinois and of the United States to bring the perps to justice. That is us folks on this blog. Send emails to the government entities involved. Send one to Eric Holder who made those statements about Zimmerman after he had been acquitted. Prosecute these perps under federal criminal civil rights laws Eric or we will call you out as a big hypocrite. This is the biggest crime of the year and it needs more Free Press Coverage.

  143. Nice touch coppers, NOT. How about stopping some of that murdering in the city, you know the shot and murdered people from this previous weekend. Ooopsie that’s right 95 year old men are more to your liking, why take out the bad guys when you can KILL AN OLD MAN.

  144. so wrong ,no justifying it and it will get worse snfortunatly . god bless this man and his family , i hope they sue big time

  145. My heart goes out to all involved… the ignorance in our world about our elders is mind boggling! There is so much to learn and share!!!! Please, please, please!!! everyone start this process wherever you are!!!! Our elders and wise ones and we are deserving of our effort!!!!

  146. Cheap thugs have no business being cops – that just gives them license to brutalize and kill whomever they want – even a 95 year old man. God bless this poor man and his family – God save us from our rapidly evolving police state!

  147. I am very sorry for the loss of the family. I think before rendering an opinion, I would want to hear both sides of the story and additional information. People should always remember there is always more than one side.

  148. Do it while you are young folks, Have an advance directive for healthcare. pick a Responsible person to assist in your decision making and to advocate for you..Someone in this mans life thought that it was important to force him into something he didn’t want to do.. Criminal…

  149. Why are cops all over this country no longer taught the concept of “minimum necessary force”? I remember hearing of that concept somewhere in my distant past in a law enforcement context but don’t know when it changed.

  150. This 95 year old man what could he do if he was sick with a bladder infection. I think that from what I read that this murdering cop just wanted to act big and show his authority. I know from experience if a patient didn’t want to go to hospital that we could not force them to go. I know I worked in healthcare for over 20 years. It just shows how bad some cops are in wanting to hurt brutalize ad kill a person. Why riot gear in a assisted living home.? It just shows that the 95 year old didn’t want to go thru that surgery since he knew what would happen. It saddens me to think that there is heartless people that can hurt a person that was just refusing to go to hospital. Maybe he wanted to go in peace. But instead he got tortured by those bean bags and stun gun then shoot. I think this cop needs to be tried for MURDER and CONVICTED. I wouldn’t want this cop to say his protecting my family. cause he is a murdering show off cop that wants to be known.

  151. HOAX….Bet ya. No information as to the officers names, the nursing home and NOTHING on real news sites. Only on blogger and unreliable opinion pages or it simply did not happen the way the bloggers claim. But people will believe anything they see on the internet without checking into it then make silly unsubstantiated assumptions as it they know when in fact they dont know anything about the issue. Just like this page and these comments above

  152. John Tucker wrote: “HOAX….Bet ya.”

    I’ll take that bet.

    You didn’t look very hard. CBS has the story. The local television news carried the story more than once, as did the local newspaper and radio stations.

    You can see some video at the following links, with daughter, grandson, family’s lawyer, neighbors from the assisted living facility, etc.



  153. One day there will be no more oil. No more food will get to market. People will get hungry and will have no money because they cannot get to their workplaces. How else do you expect the police to deal with you? So they need practice, and who better to practice on than the nearly dead elderly?!

  154. Hoax you say?

    Well you might want to read the Chicago Tribune or contact the county coroner’s office to see about the deceased being admitted there.

    The officers’ names not being released is often the case when an investigation is still pending that does not equate it to being a hoax.

    Nothing about “real news sites” eh? you did notice the link to the Chigago News Tribune at the top of the article.

  155. This is too terrible. What is our society coming to concerning the elderly? Police power run amuck!! They should be treated just like the 95 yo. They will be the
    re one day if they live long enough then maybe they will understand even though it is to late for this American Hero..

  156. I can clearly see why this happens, employers (Federal and Government) seek kids out of high school with a squeaky clean record and hired them BEFORE a seasoned veteran whose seen various types of scenarios. THIS is the direct reflection of their hiring pool! this is G*D damn backwards!

  157. What sort of training are police recruits getting that makes them (even a tiny minority of them) think it is permissible to act like Gestapo thugs on the street? Who is telling them this is the way to act? Some responsible, senior officers and trainers need to be stripped of their badges and sued into poverty.

  158. Tom Cox wrote: “Who is telling them this is the way to act?”

    Ever hear of the 1971 Stanford prison experiment? There are psychological effects that happen to people who are placed in authority and given power to act. Nobody has to tell them to act this way. Unfortunately, it is human nature. Somebody has to tell them NOT to act this way.

  159. Obviously, the training these officers received was not complete. They are not trained in conflict management. I wonder what is going through their minds, who gave the to order to fire? Who thought SWAT would be the necessary force? Until we have these answered and they are retrained, we are all in danger.

  160. You people just don’t get it! Having sold your soul to a socialist regime you are just another number, or just another mouth to feed that is sucking the life out of the ‘collective’. If you have no God, and no fundamental understaning of ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, then you are just dust in the wind, and might as well give yourself over to be cannon fodder! To them, he wasn’t even worth the “non-lethal round” that took his life! Just another person, that they won’t have on the roles of Obamacare!

  161. 1. staff at retirement homes know that residents often are confused. 2. UTIs add to that confusion. 3. this gentleman had just confronted an issue regarding going to the hospital.. perhaps he thought that this was the same issue. 4. UTIs can be treated with antibiotics without having to take an ambulance to the ER. 5. once paramedics are called to transport and are confronted by a patient they can’t manage they do call police.. the error here appears to be mis-communication between staff, medics and cops. Almost anyone who is confused will be frightened by someone in a uniform who attempt to manhandle them…. so go figure 2 maybe 3 medics show up to strap him in to a gurney for trans port.. this really scares him,, then several more uniformed people with shields show up and this throws the old man right back in to the war days.. uniforms should have exited and staff should have been allowed to calm him down and I bet he might have walked to the ambulance.. all this means is that staff medics and cops should have been trained better to deal with this situation. totally unnecessary behaviors on everyone’s part.

  162. Last time I checked we as adults have the right to refuse medical treatment for ourselves. Family needs to hold the facility accountable as well.

  163. I am so sorry to hear this. Please let us not run to judgement…If true this is what our protect and serve did makes us no better than they and if not true honest people won’t be cruisified.

  164. I live in UK, and I am very disturbed that responsible people like police offices should Murder a 95 year old man. I hope these officers are not still walking free, as what happens in the US today happens over here tomorrow. This article disturbs me greatly and leaves me wondering what sort of world we are leaving our children and grandchildren. Ron Walker Liverpool UK

  165. I have read some of the posts. this is a tragedy. As far as the Affordable Care Act, they are already forcing us to get insurance even if we cant afford it and who decides what our quality of life will be even if we have had a major stroke? case in point, my mother was left paralyzed and unable to care for herself. my mother in law, same type of stroke, had only her eye sight affected. who decides within Obama care which of these ladies “deserve” to receive care? one was 89 the last is 70. age no longer is respected. the older you get, the more disposable you become and , we, the American people have sat back and allowed it to happen. one day it will be our turn to face this. Hopefully we will wise up and correct the situation before it destroys any more of us.

  166. Misty: To put it more bluntly, despite all the fear-mongering by the GOP, there are no death panels and care to the elderly is not being rationed. Please inform yourself about the ACA before posting things about it that are untrue and make no sense.

    That being said, OS, since at last count 26 states have opted out of Medicaid expansion, many of the working poor won’t be able to afford insurance. However, the blame for that can be placed with the Republican governors and legislators in those states.

  167. Misty,
    Everyone deserves care and should get it. The Affordable Care Act provides waivers for the premium if you qualify. Poverty is no reason for not having it. Having said that, people old enough to draw Social Security should have Medicaid or Medicare. The Affordable Care Act (i.e., “Obamacare”) does not even apply. What happened to this nursing home patient had absolutely NOTHING to do with the ACA. It had to do with incompetence on the part of nursing home staff, the EMS crew and the police.

    What we really need to worry about in situations such as this is not insurance, but the increasing militarization of some police departments, plus poor training. Hardly a day passes without hearing of inappropriate use of “non lethal” weapons on elderly people, and sometimes with fatal results. I consult with law enforcement agencies, and have been to advanced training in the use of these weapons. The basic rule is that OC (Pepper Spray), Tasers, bean bag shotguns, and batons/nightsticks should never be used on anyone seventy or older. Way too many older people have osteopenia or osteoporosis, not to mention heart conditions and other health problems.

  168. OS wrote: “Everyone deserves care and should get it.” … “Those governors don’t believe their constituents need or deserve health care.”

    I do not appreciate you or my government telling me what I need, deserve, or should get. Who made you god? Why do you enjoy taking away my freedom?

    I do not need health insurance, I do not deserve health insurance, and I do not want health insurance, so please do not give me health insurance. I do not want it for free, and I certainly do not want to be forced to buy it.

    Oh, you want me to pay for your health insurance for you? Really? Do you want me to pay for your drugs too? Really? Want me to pay for your abortion, and your viagra, and everything else that you think everybody ought to have? You think you are so great because you don’t want anything for yourself alone, but what you want is what you want for everybody. Somehow that makes it alright. The problem is that not everybody shares your values, nor do they share your desires and your need for drugs. We just want you to leave us alone.

  169. “Somehow that makes it alright. The problem is that not everybody shares your values, nor do they share your desires and your need for drugs. We just want you to leave us alone.”


    Your ethics, spirituality and morality are summed up in the quote above:

    ME! ME! ME!

  170. Mike Spindell wrote: “Your ethics, spirituality and morality are summed up in the quote above: ME! ME! ME!”

    I am expressing how millions of people feel, Mike. This is NOT about me, but about a tyrant named Barack Obama forcing his will on the people of America. We are suppose to be a democratic Republic, but President Obama will not recognize the legitimacy of elected Congressmen.

  171. Juliet,
    Thanks. I knew about half the state governors have weaseled out, but did not know the exact number. Those governors don’t believe their constituents need or deserve health care. Sadly, too many are like Misty and have drunk the Kool Aid of lies and disinformation.

  172. This may happen to my ill aging mother. Sh is 88 years old, lives in her own apartment in a building for age 55 and over. I sent her a cell phone. Her home phone was shut off, as she was being over charged for medical support over and above of her medicare in Social Security benefits. I am paying for the Cell Phone we sent her. Mother has been forced to go to hospital many times, via my Sister, of whom has no training in care functions for older people. Mom has to make sister leave to get peaceful days. I life in South Dakota, Mom lives in Portland Oregon. In 2006,I flew out, rented a car, took Mom back to her apartment from a facility that said she was never going back home again. I signed her out. Mom has been home now to this day, Oct, 5, 2013. Mom thanks me over and over again for taking her to here home of choice. I am going to be 70 years old next year. Served USAF, over 26 yrs, in all.

  173. Mr. John Joseph Sabrowski wrote: “In 2006,I flew out, rented a car, took Mom back to her apartment from a facility that said she was never going back home again. I signed her out. Mom has been home now to this day, Oct, 5, 2013. Mom thanks me over and over again for taking her to here home of choice.”

    Wow. Good job. This is one of the most kind and wise things you could do for your mother. I applaud you. I am sure this action on your part took a lot of guts on your part.

    I imagine many people would not understand your decision, and disagree with it, but the truth is that these institutions which focus on using government programs like Medicare and Medicaid to pay for their services are hurting and killing a lot of people. They get paid to find people to fill their beds and qualify for the funding. It is big business for them. The elderly should be allowed the free choice to live where they want and to receive the kind of healthcare that they want. Instead, because the government pays of it, too many are pressured to be moved into institutions and taken away from family, and their choices are taken away from them, just like John Wrana. Thank you for sharing your story. Hopefully it will give others courage not to allow the government programs to take away their parents and grandparents, to move them into institutions to die among strangers, away from home and family. You are a true American hero.

  174. Mike,
    David and people like him simply don’t understand the economic principles of insurance, as first set out by Ben Franklin more than two centuries ago. Get everyone together, pool a small amount of money, and then pay out when the need arises for a member of the pool. The insured is betting they may need it someday, the pool bets they won’t and through shared risk everyone pays a lower price. I posted some questions last night. I will repost them here for David:

    Do you think people should be able to drive without insurance?

    How does one plan not to have any serious medical conditions for a year?

    What do we do with someone who doesn’t have insurance? Make them buy it, treat them for free in emergency rooms, or leave them on the street to die?

  175. OS wrote: “Do you think people should be able to drive without insurance?”


    OS wrote: “How does one plan not to have any serious medical conditions for a year?”

    The answer is specific to each case.

    If a person is obese, lose weight or you will likely have health problems. Eating right is another good plan. Exercise is a plan. That’s why I pay for and encourage my employees to be a member at the gym, and I provide a good example or regularly working out at the gym.

    In some cases, a person might want to buy insurance. At one time in my life, I was involved in some activist activities that involved a lot of death threats and attempts on my life. With concern for how my family would fare if someone murdered me, I took out a term life insurance policy so they would have enough money to pay off the mortgage and reorganize their lives without me.

    OS wrote: “What do we do with someone who doesn’t have insurance? Make them buy it, treat them for free in emergency rooms, or leave them on the street to die?”

    We treat them for free, like virtually all communities did before Obamacare. They might whine and complain about how unfair it is that they have to do all this treatment for free. The hospital may threaten to go private again and again in order to avoid having to treat people for free, but if we are a civilized society, we will treat people who cannot afford it.

    There is a teaching in the Bible about how the edges of the field belong to the poor. Translating that to modern industrial society, that means the change in our pockets belong to the poor. Think about that the next time a homeless man asks you for some change. It means a portion of our services belong to those who cannot afford them. The legal profession has enshrined this somewhat in pro bono services being required. In the same way, doctors, nurses, hospital corporations, etc. can share their skills with the poor for free. We all can. Forcing others to pay you to service them is wrong. It is a cop-out.

  176. OS wrote: “The insured is betting they may need it someday, the pool bets they won’t and through shared risk everyone pays a lower price.”

    Clearly YOU are the one who does not understand the economics of insurance, along with Ruth Bader Ginsburg and other supposedly intelligent people who have facilitated the largest insurance bailout in history without calling it that.

    Insurance is BIG BUSINESS. I have a cousin who is a multi-millionaire. He owns like five multi-million dollar homes, a jet plane, a ferrari, a fully stocked RV, multiple other cars and boats. His business is insurance. His first paycheck in that industry was for nearly half a million dollars. He worked for about 8 months with no paycheck, then the payoff started coming in.

    Insurance works like Casinos do. The insurance corporations set up the game for them to win. How do they do it? By deceiving people like you into thinking that without them, you cannot afford the services for which you are being insured. The truth is, they set up the odds to be in their favor, and not just by a small margin, but by a BIG margin.

    Just apply some common sense and you will know what I say is true. We know that Casinos stack the deck in their favor because they have these huge buildings, big buffets, give away a lot of free stuff to everyone, and people who run them drive fancy cars, have huge properties, and have lots of money, etc. Look at the big insurance buildings in the downtown areas of most large cities. Look at the insurance commercials on television. How do they pay for that? Look at how many millionaires exist in the insurance industry. Look at the Forbes 500 list of top companies by revenue. People rightly talk about Banksters, but they turn a blind eye to insurance providers? Why?

    The winners in the insurance racket is NOT the consumer. Not by a long way. The people who believe they benefit the most from insurance are like the gamblers who keep going into the Casinos believing they will win big.

  177. David,

    You basically said the same thing as OS without realizing it…. Buying insurance is gambling… You’re gambling you’re going to have an accident or some claim… And the insurance company is betting you don’t…

    The odds today are greatly stacked in the insurance industry’s favor….

    Ever seen what happens when a claim is made to Lloyd’s of London ? It’s personal liability.. Not here in the states…

  178. How A Rand Paul Republican From Alabama Learned To Love Obamacare
    By Igor Volsky
    October 4, 2013

    Joshua Pittman is a 31-year-old self-employed videographer from Montgomery, Alabama. A libertarian Republican who voted for Ron Paul in 2012 and believes that Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) is the future of the GOP, Pittman sees Barack Obama’s presidency as a “failure” who hasn’t lived up to the nation’s expectations.

    But on Tuesday morning, Pittman logged on to HealthCare.gov and after some initial glitches and delays, successfully enrolled in a Bronze-level Obamacare health insurance plan. “It took me all day, really,” he says with a laugh. “It kicked me out and told me you have to try again, but I knew what I was getting into with so many people exploring it.”

    Though he initially supported repealing the law, Pittman became curious about Obamacare in the days and weeks before it launched. For years, he had gone uninsured, thinking he’d be able to “get over anything with a bandaid and a six pack of beer.” But a lead poisoning incident earlier this year shook his confidence and bank account, leading him with tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills. “I was a healthy person and it really depleted me financially, so it made me look at things in a different way than I would before. I understood the importance of people being insured.”

    “I’ve seen first hand people hitting up the emergency room for free health care and then putting a burden on [everyone else] and that’s not something I would want to do, I want to take personal responsibility … By no means am I trying to take a government handout…it’s not a free handout, you’re paying for this health care, but it’s making it more accessible to more people.”

    Asked what he liked about Obamacare, Pittman highlighted its prohibition against denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions, noting that he wouldn’t be able to find coverage without it, and said that the policies offered in the marketplace seemed more affordable and comprehensive than those available to him on the individual market. “You may pay $18 a month [for a cheaper plan] and you’re missing a level of coverage. It’s not as easy as you’re going to pay this much a month,” he says.

  179. David,

    There ya go again… You twisted logic and all…. Obama… Is properly elected… Unlike bush….. The ACA you may not like…. Was properly done through both houses and sent to the president for his signature…. It’s a law…. Then a bunch of folks decided to contest the law….. They took it to the Sct which has a GOP lock… They basically said that it’s the law of the land…..

    Now, you’re saying the president is dong something improper….. Most of the time I’d agree…. But here you have a few special interest dictating the outcome of the country…. It’s bull hockey…. Clear and simple….

    Let it be noted…. I am not a fan of Obsma…. And I will take every opportunity to point out his faults and anyone in his cabinet…especially the AG….

    You sound like you’re taking a twist to the birther argument….

  180. AY wrote: “But here you have a few special interest dictating the outcome of the country…”

    By few special interest, do you mean Barack Obama and Harry Reid? I can see how they represent special interests because they hold the power here to either lead or block, but if you are talking about the Congressmen who do not want us to borrow money from the Chinese and others to pay for Obamacare, then I do not agree. These men were elected by the people, and they represent people like me. You can marginalize them all you want because you do not feel like they represent you, but as of late, I do not feel like President Obama represents me, nor does he represent a little less than half the country. His leadership on this issue is non-existent. President Obama blamed Bush coming into the White House, and now he blames about 20 Republicans for wanting to pass spending bills without the Obamacare spending that Obama claimed was not going to cost us a penny. The budget of the government is the President’s responsibility, and Congress along with Vice President Biden is suppose to pass a budget and vote on bills in connection with that budget. Instead of doing this, they skipped doing any budget and just vote as if spending will be dealt with later. Well, they kept kicking the can down the road, and now a few people are saying, hold on. How can our children be expected to pay for this massive debt? Why are you granting waivers to everybody in Congress, to various States and districts, to all your buddies, but the people in my district get no waivers?

    The bottomline is that Congress is doing what Congress is supposed to do. The duly elected Congressmen trying to pass spending bills right now are on the right side. Obama and his cronies want to attach their special spending to these bills, and they are saying no, not so fast. We need some financial responsibility here.

    If President Obama really cared about the American people, he would immediately encourage passing of a spending bill for everything but Obamacare, and they would only be discussing Obamacare spending and not shutting down the federal government. Instead he wants to close parks and open malls like the D.C. war memorial, which is so ridiculous, I don’t know how you cannot see how that is political game playing by President Obama.

  181. Elaine M wrote: “Would you support either a single payer or a public option?”

    No. I am more open to a single payer system, but without more information to change my mind, right now I would not support it. I do not think health care for all Americans should be federalized, except maybe in a way where the federal government might require communities to have a system whereby everyone who wants health care can get it for their residents. Let the local governments figure out how they are going to accomplish that.

    I don’t know the way all States do it, but here in Florida, the counties operate health clinics. Then there are public hospitals. The poor can walk into either and they get service. The individual pays for service on a sliding scale based upon their income. Those without jobs pay nothing. Our county taxes pay the difference. I think the system works fairly well.

    From my perspective, federalizing health care makes it more prone to corruption and inefficiency. There is too much money involved. Everybody is looking for a small piece of the big pie.

  182. David,
    Exactly. Insurance companies are big business and none of them ever treated a single sick person. They exist to make money, and have wandered far away from Franklin’s concept. As it now exists, big insurance is one of the least productive industries in this country.

    I have a young relative who is now on disabiliy. He worked for a big insurance company which I will not name because I am concerned that if I do, they might be able to identify him, and may try to retaliate by cutting off his long term disabilty payments. He worked in the department where claims were sent if a client had a catastrophic illness like cancer or needed a transplant. His job was to comb through their entire personal history to find medical records the claimant did not report when first applying for insurance. If he found an old sports injury, acne treatments, or a visit to the doctor for tonsillitis as a kid, if it was not reported on the applicaton, he disallowed the claim for medical services and cancelled the policy because the claimant “lied” when they filled out the application. People died because of his actions. Unfortunately for the job he was in, he has a conscience, and he had a complete breakdown. Lost his voice and now unable to speak. He sits at home now in front of the TV, a psychological basket case. Almost anything will trigger his work-related PTSD.

    My youngest daughter cannot get either health or life insurance at any price. She is a childhood cancer survivor, which means she is uninsurable, unless it is through an employer or the ACA.

    So yes, I do know a lot about insurance.

  183. David,
    When you say “treat them for free” exactly how do you propose to pay salaries for the doctors, nurses, and medical support staff, not to mention a few million dollars worth of equipment. Plus their malpractice insurance.

    As for planning ahead, how would you propose to plan ahead for a stroke, cancer, catastrophic infection, or serious accident to name just three? Both my daughter and grandson had cancer. My daughter was diagnosed at the age of seven months, but by some miracle of modern medical science survived a cancer that is almost 100% fatal. My grandson was diagnosed with Ewing’s sarcoma at 13 and died at 17. What healthy diet would you have suggested so they wouldn’t get cancer? And by the way, the medical bills for both of them were in the vicinity of a million dollars apiece. How you plan to pay for that without insurance?

  184. OS wrote: “When you say “treat them for free” exactly how do you propose to pay salaries for the doctors, nurses, and medical support staff, not to mention a few million dollars worth of equipment. Plus their malpractice insurance.”

    I think everyone involved adopts an attitude of giving to those who have need. The doctors, nurses, and medical support staff can earn enough on paying customers to support themselves, and give of their time and expertise to help those who cannot afford it. They can accept lower payments from those able and willing to pay something. Most people want to pay what they are able to pay. They are more than grateful. The expensive equipment manufacturers can do the same thing. They can donate equipment for use with the poor, or they can offer rebates for the number of poor treated, etc. There are lots of ways to do it. There are mobile health clinics that go around the country now and give free health care. I remember seeing a report on Nightline about them. Really good work they do. I have a huge amount of respect for programs like these. The government should support these kinds of groups rather than create Obamacare.

    We also need some kind of tort reform in regards to the malpractice insurance. Doctors and nurses make mistakes like everybody else. I think the law should give them some kind of immunity from prosecution based upon clear consent of the person requesting treatment. It will be difficult to hash out the details, but something needs to be done about it. The patient needs to assume the bulk of the responsibility for what happens when he chooses to trust a doctor with his health decisions. The problem is that they look to the doctor like he or she is god, and when that person makes a mistake, or they think they made a mistake, they sue. Gotta stop that IMO.

  185. OS wrote: “As for planning ahead, how would you propose to plan ahead for a stroke, cancer, catastrophic infection, or serious accident to name just three?”

    You can’t really plan ahead for things like this, although good exercise and diet, staying out of the sun, and avoiding stress are ways to avoid stroke and cancer.

    With catastrophic things, buy catastrophic insurance if you want to plan ahead for this. I choose not to, and I do not think I should be penalized or treated as a second class citizen for making that choice.

    I had a catastrophic event happen to me with my back. I was heading out of the house at 5:30 in the morning when I collapsed on the sidewalk just 10 feet from my front door. I could not move; the pain was severe. I hollered for someone in the house to come help me, but nobody could hear me. They were all asleep. I was stuck there for 3 hours with ants crawling over me and being unable even to brush them off me. Finally, they started to wake up in the house. My youngest daughter told my wife she heard me yelling outside. They found me. Most people call the ambulance and head to the medical professionals for help. Not me, though I thought about it. My wife knows my attitude about medical doctors, so she encouraged me that we could get through this without them. Over the next hour, they helped roll me onto a mechanics creeper, then pulled me into the house and finally into my bed. I could not get out of bed for more than a week. I had to pee in a bag. When I finally could go to the bathroom, I used a walker my wife bought at the thrift store down the road, and the first time took me 45 minutes to walk the 20 feet to the commode. I did what work I could do on my computer from my bed. After six weeks, I was finally able to drive myself to the office to resume work there. If I had gone to the hospital, yeah, I would have had a huge bill, but we managed fine without them. That’s how I choose to live my life, and I think that I should be allowed to continue doing that. I hope I never get in a situation like John Wrana. He did not want medical treatment, so the police were called and he was killed for resisting medical treatment.

  186. Elaine M wrote: “What do you think about Medicare, which is a federal program? Do you think it should be abolished?”

    If we could roll back time to 1966, I would not be supportive of starting Medicare. However, the problem now is that too many people have become dependent upon it. It would not be easy to just abolish it. It would be nice to get the States to cooperate to replace it with local programs, but that is no easy task.

    I partly blame Medicare as being responsible for killing my father-in-law. Medicare is probably partly to blame here in this case with John Wrana. You see, with Medicare available, the health care providers want people like John Wrana to receive services that Medicare will pay for. People ask why they would call the police for this man to have this procedure. Because that is how they get paid. They do the procedure, tell Medicare that they did it, and voila, payment is sent to them. Same thing with just giving them a bed for rehabilitation. Family members may be willing to house the man, but with Medicare, the pressure is on from the health care professionals to institutionalize him so they can get paid for it. If John Wrana had to pay for the procedure himself, and he had no money to pay, guess what, the doctors might be saying, “it might be a good idea to do this procedure, but he really doesn’t need it.”

    Watch the people who go to the hospital with insurance and the ones who go without insurance. The one’s with insurance tend to need more care and procedures than the ones without insurance. The one’s with insurance are kept longer, to do more tests, to get paid for the tests and to look for something else to do for payment, while the one’s without insurance are discharged sooner.

  187. David,
    That is naive in the extreme. It is hard enough now to recruit doctors and nurses. Try to hire an emergency medicine doctor or nurse practitioner even if you offer them top dollar. A doctor just out of school with student loans well into six figures will not work for peanuts. Or how about a neurosurgeon, who, after graduating from medical school at the top of his or her class, must do a ten year residency and may have more than a million dollars in loans to pay back. What do you propose to pay the neurosurgeon with when when some guy who works on cars for a living has a stroke or open skull fracture?

    Your problem is that you are all theory, with no down and dirty experience in the emergency room or surgical suite.

  188. OS wrote: ” A doctor just out of school with student loans well into six figures will not work for peanuts.”

    Some do, some don’t, and not all take out loans to go to medical school.

    Here in Florida, there are doctors and dentists who work in county health clinics. Some of these doctors out for the big money can set aside a portion of their time to give back to the community to help. Why do you exempt them from giving? Why do you expect the poor to pay them with their taxes so these doctors out for the big money can live that kind of lifestyle?

    There are doctors who volunteer their time, that join the peace corps, who go on missions overseas to provide medical care to third world countries, and who volunteer for mobile medical units in this country. You can claim that doctors are all stingy and must be paid, but I think many of them are more humanitarian than that. Let’s give them a chance. Let’s encourage them to do their part.

    And please do not lose sight of the fact that I believe in local government taxes to help subsidize the cost of providing medical care for the poor. I am not saying that it has to be all private. I am saying that it should not be all government.

  189. David sez: “From my perspective, federalizing health care makes it more prone to corruption and inefficiency. There is too much money involved. Everybody is looking for a small piece of the big pie.”

    As if that is not the case with private insurance. When was the last time you heard of a Federal employee of Medicare/Medicaid pay themselves a $13.7 million dollar bonus as the BC/BS CEO up in Chicago did?

    You made an extraordinary claim there, David. Now I want to see some extraordinary proof of your contention. Since both Medicare and Medicaid spend as much or more than the biggest insurance companies, show me how or where there is any significant graft in that system? Some waste, probably so. But corruption and inefficiency? Show me.

  190. OS wrote: “When was the last time you heard of a Federal employee of Medicare/Medicaid pay themselves a $13.7 million dollar bonus as the BC/BS CEO up in Chicago did?”

    You still don’t seem to get it. The Obama policies probably sparked this, just like it sparked some companies to move to more part time employees.

    Unfortunately there is a very cozy relationship between private insurers and programs like Medicare. Government programs like Medicare and private insurance basically sleep in the same bed. You want to look for a federal employee that gets overly compensated when private companies also are involved with administering the program? Ever hear of Medicare Advantage?

    You might be interested in the salaries of CEO’s involved with Medicare Private Insurance Plans.

    The main problem with corruption in Medicare is not the type you highlight, with overpaid CEO’s, but rather it simply represents a huge pool of money with many business minded people looking for ways to get a piece of it. The vast majority of corruption looks entirely legitimate. An elderly man needs recuperation time after surgery. Well, Medicare will pay for the first 100 days, so off to the nursing home he goes. They charge the taxpayer over $200 a day for the bed. That’s over $20,000 for the 100 day stay. Happens all the time. Looks completely legitimate, but I call it corruption because there are family members who can easily take care of him at their own home. It would be cheaper to let him stay in the hotel down the street.

    Medicare fraud exists (probably 8 to 10 percent), but the bigger problem is the pool of money taken from the American taxpayer by force with everyone scrambling for ways to get a piece of it. People are told by medical professionals, “you need this and it is free, paid for by the government,” and the people believe it and let the professionals do what they want to them or to their loved ones.

  191. DavidM: Since it’s abundantly clear you have no idea what “nursing homes” do, you should really be quiet. Home care is not a substitute for a skilled nursing facility, which run about $3,000-$6,000 a month — a bargain compared to a hospital.

    I don’t know why I bother. Trying to debate anything with you is like arguing with someone who lives in an alternate universe. It’s like you have zero life experience, here on earth.

  192. Juliet N wrote: “Home care is not a substitute for a skilled nursing facility…”

    You are absolutely right when somebody needs that kind of care, but a lot of elderly people are placed there inappropriately and against their will. I know because my father-in-law was. He did not belong there. Even the head administrator there said he did not belong there. He could dress himself, go to the bathroom on his own, walk in the courtyard there on his own. He could converse and was self aware just like anybody else, but a psychologist questioned his competence because he had difficulty counting from 100 backwards by 9. Did not matter that the man only had a third grade education. When I told the psychologist that, he said, “Oh, I thought he was an engineer.” I said, “that was an engineer on the railroad which he worked for for forty years when he got back from fighting in France and Africa during World War II.” My father-in-law hated it at the nursing home, and family members were not allowed to even take him to Burger King much less to their own homes. The nursing home kept him for exactly 100 days, then mysteriously sent him to the hospital because of some unknown issue. When they were called to come pick him up, they said they gave his bed to someone else. There is no doubt in my mind that it was a Medicare insurance ploy. It will never be flagged as fraud because doctors sign off on it, and everybody except the daughters wanted it to happen that way.

  193. DavidM: That is anecdotal. Nursing home defense was my niche, and our firm represented a company with nursing homes in most states. As usual, you have no clue what you’re talking about.

  194. Juliet N wrote: “Nursing home defense was my niche, and our firm represented a company with nursing homes in most states.”

    So because you and your firm made money defending nursing homes, you therefore conclude that my experience from the patient side is only “anecdotal” and you are the only one who knows what she is talking about? And what is your counterclaim exactly? Is it that nursing homes do not abuse Medicare and Medicaid?

    Just google “nursing home fraud” and you can find many nursing homes found guilty of medicare and medicaid fraud, amounting to millions and millions of dollars.

    For example: “…federal health care inspectors in November said the U.S. nursing home industry overbills Medicare $1.5 billion a year for treatments patients don’t need or never receive.”


    “Thirty percent of claims sampled from for-profit homes were deemed improper, compared to just 12 percent from non-profits, according to data Bloomberg News obtained from the inspector general’s office of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services via a Freedom of Information Act request.”

    The nursing home fraud has gotten 100% worse since President Obama took office:

    “Federal prosecutors brought 120 now-resolved civil and criminal cases against nursing homes and related individuals from 2008 to 2012, twice the number of the prior five years, said Gary Cantrell, deputy inspector general of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.”

    “Investor-owned facilities earn a 20 percent profit margin on Medicare patients compared to 9 percent for nonprofit operators, according to Medpac. Medicare pays nursing homes about a third of their revenues, while Medicaid, the state-federal health insurance program for the poor, accounts for roughly 50 percent. The bulk of the rest is from private payers.”

    It is possible that you and your firm were paid with money obtained by fraudulent Medicare and Medicaid payments. No wonder you seem a bit defensive.

  195. DavidM: I know Gene has explained to you what “anecdotal” means, and fairly recently. Your one experience (assuming it actually happened the way you say) may or may not be representative of the totality of nursing home experiences. I, on the other hand, have more knowledge about nursing home experiences than I could tell you about in a month. It’s what I did, almost exclusively, for over four years. Therefore, I know more about it than you do.

    Again, you haven’t he slightest clue what you’re talking about.

    Oh, and I’m not defensive about anything I did in my work. I adhered to high ethical standards, as did the people for whom I worked.

  196. “You still don’t seem to get it. The Obama policies probably sparked this, just like it sparked some companies to move to more part time employees.”


    I get it everything bad that has ever happened to this country happened because of Barack Obama and for you especially he’s also a black man. If the Republican Party or the Tea Party hasn’t hired you yet they should,

  197. David,

    Are you or do you presently or have you ever worked in any capacity for any governmental agency…..

    Do you or have you ever written fictional book?

  198. We are seeing the Gish Gallop in action.

    What Juliet and Mike S. said. Not much to add, especially to Juliet’s comment.

  199. Davdm wrote: “Medicare is probably partly to blame here in this case with John Wrana. You see, with Medicare available, the health care providers want people like John Wrana to receive services that Medicare will pay for. People ask why they would call the police for this man to have this procedure. Because that is how they get paid. They do the procedure, tell Medicare that they did it, and voila, payment is sent to them. “

    So the Victory Centre, an assisted-living facility in south suburban Park Forest, may have worked in collusion with the hospital that John Wrana was going to be taken to? How about the ambulance company that was supposed to transport him to the hospital? Do you suppose they might have been part of the plot too? Do you suppose the police who caused the death of Wrana might get kick backs from funeral homes in the area?


  200. 44 Years Of Medicare Success
    by Faiz Shakir, Amanda Terkel, Matt Corley, Benjamin Armbruster, Ian Millhiser and Nate Carlile
    July 30, 2009

    MEDICARE’S SUCCESS: Since the advent of Medicare, “the health of the elderly population has improved, as measured by both longevity and functional status,” said one study published in the journal Health Affairs. In fact, according to the study, “life expectancy at age 65 increased from 14.3 years in 1960 to 17.8 years in 1998 and the chronically disabled elderly population declined from 24.9 percent in 1982 to 21.3 percent in 1994.” Leaders of the Commonwealth Fund wrote in May that, “compared to people with private insurance, Medicare enrollees have greater access to care [and] fewer problems with medical bills.” The report added that this finding is significant when considering that those Americans on Medicare represent a demographic that is more likely to be in poor health and to have lower incomes. Prior to Medicare, “about one-half of America’s seniors did not have hospital insurance,” more than 25 percent “were estimated to go without medical care due to cost concerns,” and one in three were living in poverty. Today, nearly all seniors have access to affordable health care and only about 14 percent of seniors are below the poverty line.

    CUSTOMER SATISFACTION: A recent Commonwealth Fund survey found that “elderly Medicare beneficiaries reported greater overall satisfaction with their health coverage.” Medicare is so popular that most Americans support expanding its coverage to Americans aged 55 to 64. According to a recent Kaiser Family Foundation poll, “over half of Americans (53 percent) ‘strongly’ support such a proposal and an additional 26 percent say they support it somewhat, totaling 79 percent backing.” Similarly, a Health and Human Services Department-commissioned study released in June found that “56 percent of enrollees in traditional fee-for-service Medicare give Medicare a rating of 9 or 10 on a 0-10 scale,” while “only 40 percent of Americans enrolled in private health insurance gave their plans a 9 or 10 rating.” “The higher scores for Medicare are based on perceptions of better access to care,” the National Journal noted, commenting on the surveys, adding that “[m]ore than two thirds (70 percent) of traditional Medicare enrollees say they ‘always’ get access to needed care (appointments with specialists or other necessary tests and treatment), compared with 63 percent in Medicare managed care plans and only 51 percent of those with private insurance.”

    FEARMONGERING NEVER CHANGES: Conservatives “bitterly opposed” efforts to provide elderly Americans with access to health care. Ronald Reagan argued in 1961 that if Medicare wasn’t stopped, “one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it once was like in America when men were free.” George H. W. Bush called the plan “socialized medicine,” and Barry Goldwater asked, “[h]aving given our pensioners their medical care in kind…why not a ration of cigarettes for those who smoke and of beer for those who drink?” Today’s rhetoric from opponents of health care reform — particularly the public option — is eerily similar to the fearmongering of Medicare. While Republican scare-tactics today contain a regular diet of “socialism” charges, many conservatives and Republicans have even claimed that Americans will die if Congress passes a bill with a public option. “One in five people have to die because they went to socialized medicine!” Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) complained. “Last week Democrats released a health care bill which essentially said to America’s seniors: drop dead,” said Rep. Ginny Brown-Waite (R-FL). While some conservatives are frightening the American public, right-wing “astroturf” groups are mobilizing anti-reform movements, and other conservatives are simply trying to block reform for political purposes. “If we’re able to stop Obama on this it will be his Waterloo. It will break him,” Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) claimed. On MSNBC last night, Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-OH) recognized these similarities in scare-tactics and urged Congress to move forward with real reform that contains a robust public option. “I go back to 40 years ago when the Medicare bill passed. People like Bob Dole, Strom Thurmond, Donald Rumsfeld, Gerald Ford, as members of Congress, they all opposed it. The fact is, in those days, the Democrats moved forward. They didn’t worry about we have to have X number of Republicans. Their mission was we’re going to get a good Medicare bill,” Brown said.

  201. Juliet:

    so you are saying DavidM is not telling the truth about his story? You think doctors dont scam medicare and medicaid? And that helping the poor is always done with noble intentions?

    David’s story is probably happening all across the country on a regular basis.

    The treatment of the elderly in this country is terrible in many cases but then maybe some elderly earned it during their younger years.

  202. is this true?

    “H.R. 3590 gives the federal government specific access to individual bank accounts and medical records as provided by that individuals health plan. The government may monitor an individuals finances and medical records electronically, for the purposes of determining an individuals eligibility for certain programs under the bill. They may also monitor an individuals finances and medical records to ascertain whether that individual has health insurance and is making regular premium payments to an approved health insurance plan; this will allow the federal government to determine each individuals financial responsibilities with respect to penalties and fees prior to or at the point of care as outlined in the bill. This clause also gives the government the ability to transfer funds electronically to or from an individuals bank account for the purposes of debiting his/her account for fees and penalties.

    The stated purpose of this clause is “to reduce the clerical burden on patients, health care providers, and health plans.”

    Quick note for those of you who say “the government already had access to our bank accounts.” That’s true, but it was previously required that they obtain a court order to access any individuals personal finances. This bill provides them free reign to do so whenever they please.”


  203. @Bron

    I would be interested in running this down.

    My first thought is that it is a scam because it refers to HR3590 with no date.

    I believe the Affordable health care law is PUBLIC LAW 111–148 of MAR. 23, 2010.

    HR3590 sounds like one of the many variations proposed for the law that were debated prior to agreement in the House and the Senate that resulted in public law 111-148.

    If my guess is accurate then the web site you have mentioned demonstrates the desperation of those who oppose the ACA.

    You can access what I believe is the final enacted version of the ACA at:


    Let me know what you find out. I would be interested in knowing the facts about this assertion.

  204. davidm,

    Where was your father-in-law’s family when all of this was going on? Who brought him to a psychologist to test him to see if he was competent to live by himself?

    My mother is ninety-five years old. With the help of family, she was able to live in her own home until she was ninety-two. Since May of 2010, she has been living in nursing home/rehab facility. We can take her out of the building whenever we want–for family get-togethers, birthday parties, holidays…when we want to take her for rides or out to lunch. When my mother was first admitted to the nursing home, I visited with her twice a day for the first few months. I wanted to make sure she was adapting to her new residence and to make sure that she was being cared for properly. My sister and I selected that particular nursing home for my mother because it was close to my house.

    Nursing homes have ombudsmen. If you have a problem with a nursing home, you can contact the ombudsman or the Department of Elder Affairs.

  205. Elaine M wrote: “Where was your father-in-law’s family when all of this was going on? Who brought him to a psychologist to test him to see if he was competent to live by himself?”

    Fair questions. Our situation was a little odd, and I would probably not have believed it if it did not happen to us. My father-in-law’s wife of 62 years was alive, so she was the decision maker. The problem was that she was suffering the beginning symptoms of dementia, psychosis, alzheimer’s, etc., but it was not something yet diagnosed by medical professionals. When my father-in-law had some health problems involving his colon, he went to the hospital. His wife was advised that he needed rehabilitation time and that she had the option to send him to a nursing home for rehabilitation. They have two living daughters, my wife being one. The oldest daughter wanted him to come to her house because my mother-in-law did not feel like she could care for him. We also welcomed him to our house, but we live a few hours away from his home. The eldest daughter was on the same street as where her mom and dad lived, just a few blocks down. Problem was that the wife didn’t want that. So he went to the nursing home. Once there, the wife was the decision maker. While she allowed us to visit him there, she did not allow him to leave. When the eldest daughter helped her dad with some banking requests that he asked her to do, the wife had a lawyer friend from her church file to declare him incompetent and to grant her guardianship in court. I tried to explain to the judge that the wife suffered psychosis and other issues, but my words fell on deaf ears and the wheels of justice move very slowly. The wife actually came to court with a stuffed animal, which you would think would be a clue to the judge. My father-in-law was not allowed to come to court simply because his court appointed lawyer did not think it was necessary. Eventually legal arbitration led to my wife becoming the guardian of her father, but it took too long. He had died just days after my wife became legal guardian. What had happened after the nursing home is they put him in a hospice center where he did not belong. He was still able to dress himself, go to the bathroom on his own, and was lucid and coherent in his cognitive abilities. They had trouble with him because he kept wanting to go outside, so they drugged him to keep him in bed. They had beds with railings designed to keep him in bed. One night he needed to go to the bathroom, so he climbed over the railings and fell. Between that fall and the drugs designed to keep him from wanting to be active, he eventually died. It was very sad. There are many places of blame, but government assistance like Medicare is one simply because without that free assistance, my wife’s mother would have had to allow the family to help. Instead, she turned to government instead of family. If only Medicare had a rule that they would only pay if there were not family members available to help out.

    My father-in-law was a wonderful man, with the most cheerful and happy disposition a person could have. We were all eager and desirous to have him live with us during his last years. My father-in-law begged us not to let him die alone in a strange place. He wanted to die at home with family, but government interference created a different path.

    My wife and I sometimes lament how our society has changed so much, like the way Ronald Reagan said it would change if Medicare was passed. It use to be people were born at home and died at home, in the presence of their family. Now they go to institutions where professionals make decisions and the family members are excluded. The bigger and more involved government gets, the more it will be like this.

  206. Bron,

    How many govt scams have you witnessed over the decades, of course Obamacare is a complete scam & fraud on the people as most other govt programs have descended into fraud scams!

    This country is in deep trouble & where are the other side’s honest leaders!

    A couple of videos for you.

    1st is repeat felon at least 20 times over JPM & CNBC, owned by the CMIC GE attempt to sell us & Matt Taibbi a load of bullsheeet.

    I thought it funny & Taibbi makes short work of them again. :)


  207. David, “We treat them for free, like virtually all communities did before Obamacare. They might whine and complain about how unfair it is that they have to do all this treatment for free”

    Lol, I haven’t believed in a free lunch since I was about 9, my dad taught me that. (amusing story but I won’t bore you.)

    That “free” care isn’t free and is picked up by a network of private and public means (excluding Medicare and Medicaid) and accounts for among other things higher insurance costs and hospital costs. Medicare and Medicaid are the two biggest programs that pay for all that “free” care because it is impossible for the existing medical care industry to care for people that can’t afford it without them. None of us can afford a serious injury or illness or disease, 50% of all personal bankruptcies are still caused by a medical debt/costs.

    Last I read those 26 states that refuse the expanded Medicaid coverage will lose some of their existing money, those states will be lumped in with the other states that did expand Medicaid when it comes time to compute the basic Medicaid grant to states for the federal budget. The ADA and Medicaid expansion will lower the need for Medicaid grants overall. The ADA will drive that because the expansion is designed to help pay for getting people into ADA. Unless special provisions are made for those bassackward, subversive states, they will lose money. I’m cool with that.

  208. Bron,

    Now anyone that has ever done any business in this country knows exactly the govt crap this guy & millions of other have had to put up with.

    Who’s going to pay those govt employee’s salaries/pensions once they’ve run all farmers/business people off shore?

  209. Juliet,
    It is his MO to attack and question the business ethics of people he does not know, after filtering it through his many biases and prejudices. His arguments are so full of logical fallacies that it is hard to know where to start. Seems that people like David have completely foregone any ability they ever had to engage in critical thinking. Then he tries to talk you to death with the fallacy of argumentum verbosum Just because there are a lot of words, does not mean they have content. A lot of empty rhetoric is as useless as a small amount of empty rhetoric. Volume does not create substance. Typically, less is more.

    The specific fallacy he used in his argument with you is a combination of ignoratio elenchi and >\ad hominem. Additionally, he is really bad about the hasty generalization. That suggests he knows little about statistics, or if he does, he does not bother to apply that knowledge.

    I could go on for a few more paragraphs, but will take my own advice. Less is more.

  210. Florida prison healthcare providers sued hundreds of times

    The Florida Department of Corrections awarded a five-year, $1.2 billion contract to provide medical care for thousands of state prisoners in North and Central Florida to a Tennessee company that was sued 660 times for malpractice in the past five years.

    Nearly half of those cases remain open. Of those that are closed, 91 — one in four — ended with confidential settlements that Corizon declined to discuss. The company, Corizon, began work in August providing care at 41 correctional facilities.

    A second contractor, Pittsburgh-based Wexford Health Sources, signed a five-year, $240 million contract in December to provide medical services to state inmates in nine institutions in South Florida.

    Wexford was hit with 1,092 malpractice claims — suits, notices of intent to sue and letters from aggrieved inmates from Jan. 1, 2008, through 2012. Records say Wexford settled 34 of 610 closed matters for a total of $5.4 million, as well as another case that ended in a $270,000 jury verdict against the company.

    The Department of Corrections, headed by Secretary Michael D. Crews, hired Corizon and Wexford to lead Florida toward millions of dollars in savings promised by the massive privatization of inmate healthcare enacted by Gov. Rick Scott and the Republican-controlled Legislature.

    Along the way, however, the corrections department never asked the corporations bidding for those lucrative jobs to disclose their litigation histories.

  211. Pat Robertson to elderly woman: Your husband is sick because you aren’t giving enough money to your church
    Pat Robertson is full of really good advice VIDEO

    Pat Robertson, medical expert and internationally renowned financial adviser, recently shared his wisdom with an elderly “700 Club” viewer who is in such financial dire straits that she has to choose between tithing to her church or paying her husband’s medical expenses.

    The woman, who is “retired and living on a small pension and Social Security income” and “barely [has] any money,” asked Robertson if maybe, after a lifetime of tithing, she could prioritize her husband’s healthcare over her financial service to the church.

    Robertson’s response? Of course she can’t stop tithing. In fact, her husband is sick because she isn’t tithing enough.


    Robertson: Tithers Don’t Have Health, Financial Problems

  212. Elaine Your questions about “where was the family,” are schizophrenic when contrasted w/ the Mary thread. Maybe it’s just situational ethics. I have the same “Famiglia” questions in both. That should always be the first question. Because, the family is a person’s best chance @ having a good ally. The government is way down the list.

  213. davidm,

    Thank you for responding to my questions. That is indeed a sad story. It sounds as if there were a lot of contributing factors to your father-in-law’s final days and death. It must have been a terrible time for you and your wife’s family. Still, I don’t see how the Medicare program can be blamed for what happened.

  214. Juliet N:

    “I, on the other hand, have more knowledge about nursing home experiences than I could tell you about in a month. It’s what I did, almost exclusively, for over four years. Therefore, I know more about it than you do.”

    A friend of mine, an engineer, was on a construction site and was inspecting work done by one of the tradesmen. The work was wrong and my friend pointed it out to the man and asked him to fix it. The man said he wasnt going to fix it because that is how he had been doing it for 30 years.

    All my friend said was “well you have being doing it wrong for 30 years.”

    Knowledge is a funny thing.

Comments are closed.