95-Year-Old Man In Nursing Home Resists Going To Hospital . . . Police Arrive And Shoot and Kill Him With Stun Gun And Bean Bag Rounds

JohnWranaThere is a disturbing report out of Chicago where police were called when 95-year-old world War II veteran John Wrana refused to go to a hospital for a urinary tract infection. Called by paramedics to assist in getting Wrana into an ambulance, the Park Forest police showed up in riot gear and proceeded to shoot Wrana first with a stun gun and then with a bead bag fired from a shotgun. He no longer needed treatment for the urinary tract problem. He died from internal bleeding and blunt force trauma. He was about to celebrate his 96th birthday.

Wrana was reportedly frail and had difficulty walking. We have previously discussed other cases involving the killing of a bedridden elderly woman and an unarmed suicide case. The cases raise serious questions of the rapid escalation of such cases in the level of force used by police as well as the increasing use of “non-lethal devices” as a first response to threats.

Wrana was living in an assisted-living facility. Paramedics told police that he was threatening them with a metal shoehorn and a knife. Some reports indicate that Wrana had decided that he did not want to go through an operation. That may have been the reason why he was resisting. He said that he understood that not having the operation could kill him but decided against it. It is not clear whether he was declared incompetent before the attempt to force him to go to the hospital.

The family contests the claim of the knife. Even if he had a knife, it is hard to see why police could not stand back (particularly since they had riot shields) and avoid using such force on an individual who clearly would be a risk with either a stun gun or bean bag round. Even if the blunt trauma did not finish him off, the shock could easily trigger a heart attack in a near 96 year old man. Some reports indicate that multiple rounds of bean bags may have been used.

article-2385926-1B307EF9000005DC-868_306x423Wrana was U.S. Air Corps veteran who served in Burma and India during World War II. Sergeant Wrana survived the hellish fighting in Burma but would later die in the United States just short of this 96 birthday in a confrontation with police. Truly bizarre.

Just for the record. These bean bag rounds are often thought of as harmless, almost toy-like devices. The bean bags fired form a shotgun will initially travel at around 300-400 feet a second (though they have a range of 70 feet). They have been shown to break ribs and even push broken ribs into the heart. Internal bleeding is a well-known risk.

joh-wrana

295 thoughts on “95-Year-Old Man In Nursing Home Resists Going To Hospital . . . Police Arrive And Shoot and Kill Him With Stun Gun And Bean Bag Rounds”

  1. Elaine Your questions about “where was the family,” are schizophrenic when contrasted w/ the Mary thread. Maybe it’s just situational ethics. I have the same “Famiglia” questions in both. That should always be the first question. Because, the family is a person’s best chance @ having a good ally. The government is way down the list.

  2. Pat Robertson to elderly woman: Your husband is sick because you aren’t giving enough money to your church
    Pat Robertson is full of really good advice VIDEO
    BY KATIE MCDONOUGH
    10/4/13
    http://www.salon.com/2013/10/04/pat_robertson_to_elderly_woman_your_husband_is_sick_because_you_arent_giving_enough_money_to_your_church/

    Excerpt:
    Pat Robertson, medical expert and internationally renowned financial adviser, recently shared his wisdom with an elderly “700 Club” viewer who is in such financial dire straits that she has to choose between tithing to her church or paying her husband’s medical expenses.

    The woman, who is “retired and living on a small pension and Social Security income” and “barely [has] any money,” asked Robertson if maybe, after a lifetime of tithing, she could prioritize her husband’s healthcare over her financial service to the church.

    Robertson’s response? Of course she can’t stop tithing. In fact, her husband is sick because she isn’t tithing enough.

    *****

    Robertson: Tithers Don’t Have Health, Financial Problems

  3. Florida prison healthcare providers sued hundreds of times
    BY DAN CHRISTENSEN
    BROWARDBULLDOG.ORG
    10/2/13
    http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/10/02/3666091/florida-prison-healthcare-providers.html

    Excerpt:
    The Florida Department of Corrections awarded a five-year, $1.2 billion contract to provide medical care for thousands of state prisoners in North and Central Florida to a Tennessee company that was sued 660 times for malpractice in the past five years.

    Nearly half of those cases remain open. Of those that are closed, 91 — one in four — ended with confidential settlements that Corizon declined to discuss. The company, Corizon, began work in August providing care at 41 correctional facilities.

    A second contractor, Pittsburgh-based Wexford Health Sources, signed a five-year, $240 million contract in December to provide medical services to state inmates in nine institutions in South Florida.

    Wexford was hit with 1,092 malpractice claims — suits, notices of intent to sue and letters from aggrieved inmates from Jan. 1, 2008, through 2012. Records say Wexford settled 34 of 610 closed matters for a total of $5.4 million, as well as another case that ended in a $270,000 jury verdict against the company.

    The Department of Corrections, headed by Secretary Michael D. Crews, hired Corizon and Wexford to lead Florida toward millions of dollars in savings promised by the massive privatization of inmate healthcare enacted by Gov. Rick Scott and the Republican-controlled Legislature.

    Along the way, however, the corrections department never asked the corporations bidding for those lucrative jobs to disclose their litigation histories.

  4. Juliet,
    It is his MO to attack and question the business ethics of people he does not know, after filtering it through his many biases and prejudices. His arguments are so full of logical fallacies that it is hard to know where to start. Seems that people like David have completely foregone any ability they ever had to engage in critical thinking. Then he tries to talk you to death with the fallacy of argumentum verbosum Just because there are a lot of words, does not mean they have content. A lot of empty rhetoric is as useless as a small amount of empty rhetoric. Volume does not create substance. Typically, less is more.

    The specific fallacy he used in his argument with you is a combination of ignoratio elenchi and >\ad hominem. Additionally, he is really bad about the hasty generalization. That suggests he knows little about statistics, or if he does, he does not bother to apply that knowledge.

    I could go on for a few more paragraphs, but will take my own advice. Less is more.

  5. Bron,

    Now anyone that has ever done any business in this country knows exactly the govt crap this guy & millions of other have had to put up with.

    Who’s going to pay those govt employee’s salaries/pensions once they’ve run all farmers/business people off shore?

  6. David, “We treat them for free, like virtually all communities did before Obamacare. They might whine and complain about how unfair it is that they have to do all this treatment for free”
    *

    Lol, I haven’t believed in a free lunch since I was about 9, my dad taught me that. (amusing story but I won’t bore you.)

    That “free” care isn’t free and is picked up by a network of private and public means (excluding Medicare and Medicaid) and accounts for among other things higher insurance costs and hospital costs. Medicare and Medicaid are the two biggest programs that pay for all that “free” care because it is impossible for the existing medical care industry to care for people that can’t afford it without them. None of us can afford a serious injury or illness or disease, 50% of all personal bankruptcies are still caused by a medical debt/costs.
    *

    Last I read those 26 states that refuse the expanded Medicaid coverage will lose some of their existing money, those states will be lumped in with the other states that did expand Medicaid when it comes time to compute the basic Medicaid grant to states for the federal budget. The ADA and Medicaid expansion will lower the need for Medicaid grants overall. The ADA will drive that because the expansion is designed to help pay for getting people into ADA. Unless special provisions are made for those bassackward, subversive states, they will lose money. I’m cool with that.

  7. Bron,

    How many govt scams have you witnessed over the decades, of course Obamacare is a complete scam & fraud on the people as most other govt programs have descended into fraud scams!

    This country is in deep trouble & where are the other side’s honest leaders!

    A couple of videos for you.

    1st is repeat felon at least 20 times over JPM & CNBC, owned by the CMIC GE attempt to sell us & Matt Taibbi a load of bullsheeet.

    I thought it funny & Taibbi makes short work of them again. 🙂

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-02/matt-taibbi-cnbc-presstitutes

  8. davidm,

    Where was your father-in-law’s family when all of this was going on? Who brought him to a psychologist to test him to see if he was competent to live by himself?

    My mother is ninety-five years old. With the help of family, she was able to live in her own home until she was ninety-two. Since May of 2010, she has been living in nursing home/rehab facility. We can take her out of the building whenever we want–for family get-togethers, birthday parties, holidays…when we want to take her for rides or out to lunch. When my mother was first admitted to the nursing home, I visited with her twice a day for the first few months. I wanted to make sure she was adapting to her new residence and to make sure that she was being cared for properly. My sister and I selected that particular nursing home for my mother because it was close to my house.

    Nursing homes have ombudsmen. If you have a problem with a nursing home, you can contact the ombudsman or the Department of Elder Affairs.

    1. Elaine M wrote: “Where was your father-in-law’s family when all of this was going on? Who brought him to a psychologist to test him to see if he was competent to live by himself?”

      Fair questions. Our situation was a little odd, and I would probably not have believed it if it did not happen to us. My father-in-law’s wife of 62 years was alive, so she was the decision maker. The problem was that she was suffering the beginning symptoms of dementia, psychosis, alzheimer’s, etc., but it was not something yet diagnosed by medical professionals. When my father-in-law had some health problems involving his colon, he went to the hospital. His wife was advised that he needed rehabilitation time and that she had the option to send him to a nursing home for rehabilitation. They have two living daughters, my wife being one. The oldest daughter wanted him to come to her house because my mother-in-law did not feel like she could care for him. We also welcomed him to our house, but we live a few hours away from his home. The eldest daughter was on the same street as where her mom and dad lived, just a few blocks down. Problem was that the wife didn’t want that. So he went to the nursing home. Once there, the wife was the decision maker. While she allowed us to visit him there, she did not allow him to leave. When the eldest daughter helped her dad with some banking requests that he asked her to do, the wife had a lawyer friend from her church file to declare him incompetent and to grant her guardianship in court. I tried to explain to the judge that the wife suffered psychosis and other issues, but my words fell on deaf ears and the wheels of justice move very slowly. The wife actually came to court with a stuffed animal, which you would think would be a clue to the judge. My father-in-law was not allowed to come to court simply because his court appointed lawyer did not think it was necessary. Eventually legal arbitration led to my wife becoming the guardian of her father, but it took too long. He had died just days after my wife became legal guardian. What had happened after the nursing home is they put him in a hospice center where he did not belong. He was still able to dress himself, go to the bathroom on his own, and was lucid and coherent in his cognitive abilities. They had trouble with him because he kept wanting to go outside, so they drugged him to keep him in bed. They had beds with railings designed to keep him in bed. One night he needed to go to the bathroom, so he climbed over the railings and fell. Between that fall and the drugs designed to keep him from wanting to be active, he eventually died. It was very sad. There are many places of blame, but government assistance like Medicare is one simply because without that free assistance, my wife’s mother would have had to allow the family to help. Instead, she turned to government instead of family. If only Medicare had a rule that they would only pay if there were not family members available to help out.

      My father-in-law was a wonderful man, with the most cheerful and happy disposition a person could have. We were all eager and desirous to have him live with us during his last years. My father-in-law begged us not to let him die alone in a strange place. He wanted to die at home with family, but government interference created a different path.

      My wife and I sometimes lament how our society has changed so much, like the way Ronald Reagan said it would change if Medicare was passed. It use to be people were born at home and died at home, in the presence of their family. Now they go to institutions where professionals make decisions and the family members are excluded. The bigger and more involved government gets, the more it will be like this.

  9. is this true?

    “H.R. 3590 gives the federal government specific access to individual bank accounts and medical records as provided by that individuals health plan. The government may monitor an individuals finances and medical records electronically, for the purposes of determining an individuals eligibility for certain programs under the bill. They may also monitor an individuals finances and medical records to ascertain whether that individual has health insurance and is making regular premium payments to an approved health insurance plan; this will allow the federal government to determine each individuals financial responsibilities with respect to penalties and fees prior to or at the point of care as outlined in the bill. This clause also gives the government the ability to transfer funds electronically to or from an individuals bank account for the purposes of debiting his/her account for fees and penalties.

    The stated purpose of this clause is “to reduce the clerical burden on patients, health care providers, and health plans.”

    Quick note for those of you who say “the government already had access to our bank accounts.” That’s true, but it was previously required that they obtain a court order to access any individuals personal finances. This bill provides them free reign to do so whenever they please.”

    http://libertyandpride.com/obamacare-gives-the-government-access-to-your-bank-account/

    1. @Bron

      I would be interested in running this down.

      My first thought is that it is a scam because it refers to HR3590 with no date.

      I believe the Affordable health care law is PUBLIC LAW 111–148 of MAR. 23, 2010.

      HR3590 sounds like one of the many variations proposed for the law that were debated prior to agreement in the House and the Senate that resulted in public law 111-148.

      If my guess is accurate then the web site you have mentioned demonstrates the desperation of those who oppose the ACA.

      You can access what I believe is the final enacted version of the ACA at:

      http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ148/pdf/PLAW-111publ148.pdf

      Let me know what you find out. I would be interested in knowing the facts about this assertion.

  10. Juliet:

    so you are saying DavidM is not telling the truth about his story? You think doctors dont scam medicare and medicaid? And that helping the poor is always done with noble intentions?

    David’s story is probably happening all across the country on a regular basis.

    The treatment of the elderly in this country is terrible in many cases but then maybe some elderly earned it during their younger years.

  11. 44 Years Of Medicare Success
    by Faiz Shakir, Amanda Terkel, Matt Corley, Benjamin Armbruster, Ian Millhiser and Nate Carlile
    July 30, 2009
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-progress-report/44-years-of-medicare-succ_b_247834.html

    Excerpt:
    MEDICARE’S SUCCESS: Since the advent of Medicare, “the health of the elderly population has improved, as measured by both longevity and functional status,” said one study published in the journal Health Affairs. In fact, according to the study, “life expectancy at age 65 increased from 14.3 years in 1960 to 17.8 years in 1998 and the chronically disabled elderly population declined from 24.9 percent in 1982 to 21.3 percent in 1994.” Leaders of the Commonwealth Fund wrote in May that, “compared to people with private insurance, Medicare enrollees have greater access to care [and] fewer problems with medical bills.” The report added that this finding is significant when considering that those Americans on Medicare represent a demographic that is more likely to be in poor health and to have lower incomes. Prior to Medicare, “about one-half of America’s seniors did not have hospital insurance,” more than 25 percent “were estimated to go without medical care due to cost concerns,” and one in three were living in poverty. Today, nearly all seniors have access to affordable health care and only about 14 percent of seniors are below the poverty line.

    CUSTOMER SATISFACTION: A recent Commonwealth Fund survey found that “elderly Medicare beneficiaries reported greater overall satisfaction with their health coverage.” Medicare is so popular that most Americans support expanding its coverage to Americans aged 55 to 64. According to a recent Kaiser Family Foundation poll, “over half of Americans (53 percent) ‘strongly’ support such a proposal and an additional 26 percent say they support it somewhat, totaling 79 percent backing.” Similarly, a Health and Human Services Department-commissioned study released in June found that “56 percent of enrollees in traditional fee-for-service Medicare give Medicare a rating of 9 or 10 on a 0-10 scale,” while “only 40 percent of Americans enrolled in private health insurance gave their plans a 9 or 10 rating.” “The higher scores for Medicare are based on perceptions of better access to care,” the National Journal noted, commenting on the surveys, adding that “[m]ore than two thirds (70 percent) of traditional Medicare enrollees say they ‘always’ get access to needed care (appointments with specialists or other necessary tests and treatment), compared with 63 percent in Medicare managed care plans and only 51 percent of those with private insurance.”

    FEARMONGERING NEVER CHANGES: Conservatives “bitterly opposed” efforts to provide elderly Americans with access to health care. Ronald Reagan argued in 1961 that if Medicare wasn’t stopped, “one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it once was like in America when men were free.” George H. W. Bush called the plan “socialized medicine,” and Barry Goldwater asked, “[h]aving given our pensioners their medical care in kind…why not a ration of cigarettes for those who smoke and of beer for those who drink?” Today’s rhetoric from opponents of health care reform — particularly the public option — is eerily similar to the fearmongering of Medicare. While Republican scare-tactics today contain a regular diet of “socialism” charges, many conservatives and Republicans have even claimed that Americans will die if Congress passes a bill with a public option. “One in five people have to die because they went to socialized medicine!” Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) complained. “Last week Democrats released a health care bill which essentially said to America’s seniors: drop dead,” said Rep. Ginny Brown-Waite (R-FL). While some conservatives are frightening the American public, right-wing “astroturf” groups are mobilizing anti-reform movements, and other conservatives are simply trying to block reform for political purposes. “If we’re able to stop Obama on this it will be his Waterloo. It will break him,” Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) claimed. On MSNBC last night, Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-OH) recognized these similarities in scare-tactics and urged Congress to move forward with real reform that contains a robust public option. “I go back to 40 years ago when the Medicare bill passed. People like Bob Dole, Strom Thurmond, Donald Rumsfeld, Gerald Ford, as members of Congress, they all opposed it. The fact is, in those days, the Democrats moved forward. They didn’t worry about we have to have X number of Republicans. Their mission was we’re going to get a good Medicare bill,” Brown said.

  12. Davdm wrote: “Medicare is probably partly to blame here in this case with John Wrana. You see, with Medicare available, the health care providers want people like John Wrana to receive services that Medicare will pay for. People ask why they would call the police for this man to have this procedure. Because that is how they get paid. They do the procedure, tell Medicare that they did it, and voila, payment is sent to them. “

    So the Victory Centre, an assisted-living facility in south suburban Park Forest, may have worked in collusion with the hospital that John Wrana was going to be taken to? How about the ambulance company that was supposed to transport him to the hospital? Do you suppose they might have been part of the plot too? Do you suppose the police who caused the death of Wrana might get kick backs from funeral homes in the area?

    OY!

  13. We are seeing the Gish Gallop in action.

    What Juliet and Mike S. said. Not much to add, especially to Juliet’s comment.

  14. David,

    Are you or do you presently or have you ever worked in any capacity for any governmental agency…..

    Do you or have you ever written fictional book?

  15. David sez: “From my perspective, federalizing health care makes it more prone to corruption and inefficiency. There is too much money involved. Everybody is looking for a small piece of the big pie.”

    **********************************
    As if that is not the case with private insurance. When was the last time you heard of a Federal employee of Medicare/Medicaid pay themselves a $13.7 million dollar bonus as the BC/BS CEO up in Chicago did?

    You made an extraordinary claim there, David. Now I want to see some extraordinary proof of your contention. Since both Medicare and Medicaid spend as much or more than the biggest insurance companies, show me how or where there is any significant graft in that system? Some waste, probably so. But corruption and inefficiency? Show me.

    1. OS wrote: “When was the last time you heard of a Federal employee of Medicare/Medicaid pay themselves a $13.7 million dollar bonus as the BC/BS CEO up in Chicago did?”

      You still don’t seem to get it. The Obama policies probably sparked this, just like it sparked some companies to move to more part time employees.

      Unfortunately there is a very cozy relationship between private insurers and programs like Medicare. Government programs like Medicare and private insurance basically sleep in the same bed. You want to look for a federal employee that gets overly compensated when private companies also are involved with administering the program? Ever hear of Medicare Advantage?

      You might be interested in the salaries of CEO’s involved with Medicare Private Insurance Plans.
      http://www.policyarchive.org/handle/10207/6316

      The main problem with corruption in Medicare is not the type you highlight, with overpaid CEO’s, but rather it simply represents a huge pool of money with many business minded people looking for ways to get a piece of it. The vast majority of corruption looks entirely legitimate. An elderly man needs recuperation time after surgery. Well, Medicare will pay for the first 100 days, so off to the nursing home he goes. They charge the taxpayer over $200 a day for the bed. That’s over $20,000 for the 100 day stay. Happens all the time. Looks completely legitimate, but I call it corruption because there are family members who can easily take care of him at their own home. It would be cheaper to let him stay in the hotel down the street.

      Medicare fraud exists (probably 8 to 10 percent), but the bigger problem is the pool of money taken from the American taxpayer by force with everyone scrambling for ways to get a piece of it. People are told by medical professionals, “you need this and it is free, paid for by the government,” and the people believe it and let the professionals do what they want to them or to their loved ones.

      1. DavidM: Since it’s abundantly clear you have no idea what “nursing homes” do, you should really be quiet. Home care is not a substitute for a skilled nursing facility, which run about $3,000-$6,000 a month — a bargain compared to a hospital.

        I don’t know why I bother. Trying to debate anything with you is like arguing with someone who lives in an alternate universe. It’s like you have zero life experience, here on earth.

        1. Juliet N wrote: “Home care is not a substitute for a skilled nursing facility…”

          You are absolutely right when somebody needs that kind of care, but a lot of elderly people are placed there inappropriately and against their will. I know because my father-in-law was. He did not belong there. Even the head administrator there said he did not belong there. He could dress himself, go to the bathroom on his own, walk in the courtyard there on his own. He could converse and was self aware just like anybody else, but a psychologist questioned his competence because he had difficulty counting from 100 backwards by 9. Did not matter that the man only had a third grade education. When I told the psychologist that, he said, “Oh, I thought he was an engineer.” I said, “that was an engineer on the railroad which he worked for for forty years when he got back from fighting in France and Africa during World War II.” My father-in-law hated it at the nursing home, and family members were not allowed to even take him to Burger King much less to their own homes. The nursing home kept him for exactly 100 days, then mysteriously sent him to the hospital because of some unknown issue. When they were called to come pick him up, they said they gave his bed to someone else. There is no doubt in my mind that it was a Medicare insurance ploy. It will never be flagged as fraud because doctors sign off on it, and everybody except the daughters wanted it to happen that way.

          1. DavidM: That is anecdotal. Nursing home defense was my niche, and our firm represented a company with nursing homes in most states. As usual, you have no clue what you’re talking about.

            1. Juliet N wrote: “Nursing home defense was my niche, and our firm represented a company with nursing homes in most states.”

              So because you and your firm made money defending nursing homes, you therefore conclude that my experience from the patient side is only “anecdotal” and you are the only one who knows what she is talking about? And what is your counterclaim exactly? Is it that nursing homes do not abuse Medicare and Medicaid?

              Just google “nursing home fraud” and you can find many nursing homes found guilty of medicare and medicaid fraud, amounting to millions and millions of dollars.

              For example: “…federal health care inspectors in November said the U.S. nursing home industry overbills Medicare $1.5 billion a year for treatments patients don’t need or never receive.”

              http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-31/for-profit-nursing-homes-lead-in-overcharging-while-care-suffers.html

              “Thirty percent of claims sampled from for-profit homes were deemed improper, compared to just 12 percent from non-profits, according to data Bloomberg News obtained from the inspector general’s office of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services via a Freedom of Information Act request.”

              The nursing home fraud has gotten 100% worse since President Obama took office:

              “Federal prosecutors brought 120 now-resolved civil and criminal cases against nursing homes and related individuals from 2008 to 2012, twice the number of the prior five years, said Gary Cantrell, deputy inspector general of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.”

              “Investor-owned facilities earn a 20 percent profit margin on Medicare patients compared to 9 percent for nonprofit operators, according to Medpac. Medicare pays nursing homes about a third of their revenues, while Medicaid, the state-federal health insurance program for the poor, accounts for roughly 50 percent. The bulk of the rest is from private payers.”

              It is possible that you and your firm were paid with money obtained by fraudulent Medicare and Medicaid payments. No wonder you seem a bit defensive.

              1. DavidM: I know Gene has explained to you what “anecdotal” means, and fairly recently. Your one experience (assuming it actually happened the way you say) may or may not be representative of the totality of nursing home experiences. I, on the other hand, have more knowledge about nursing home experiences than I could tell you about in a month. It’s what I did, almost exclusively, for over four years. Therefore, I know more about it than you do.

                Again, you haven’t he slightest clue what you’re talking about.

                Oh, and I’m not defensive about anything I did in my work. I adhered to high ethical standards, as did the people for whom I worked.

      2. “You still don’t seem to get it. The Obama policies probably sparked this, just like it sparked some companies to move to more part time employees.”

        DavidM,

        I get it everything bad that has ever happened to this country happened because of Barack Obama and for you especially he’s also a black man. If the Republican Party or the Tea Party hasn’t hired you yet they should,

  16. David,
    That is naive in the extreme. It is hard enough now to recruit doctors and nurses. Try to hire an emergency medicine doctor or nurse practitioner even if you offer them top dollar. A doctor just out of school with student loans well into six figures will not work for peanuts. Or how about a neurosurgeon, who, after graduating from medical school at the top of his or her class, must do a ten year residency and may have more than a million dollars in loans to pay back. What do you propose to pay the neurosurgeon with when when some guy who works on cars for a living has a stroke or open skull fracture?

    Your problem is that you are all theory, with no down and dirty experience in the emergency room or surgical suite.

    1. OS wrote: ” A doctor just out of school with student loans well into six figures will not work for peanuts.”

      Some do, some don’t, and not all take out loans to go to medical school.

      Here in Florida, there are doctors and dentists who work in county health clinics. Some of these doctors out for the big money can set aside a portion of their time to give back to the community to help. Why do you exempt them from giving? Why do you expect the poor to pay them with their taxes so these doctors out for the big money can live that kind of lifestyle?

      There are doctors who volunteer their time, that join the peace corps, who go on missions overseas to provide medical care to third world countries, and who volunteer for mobile medical units in this country. You can claim that doctors are all stingy and must be paid, but I think many of them are more humanitarian than that. Let’s give them a chance. Let’s encourage them to do their part.

      And please do not lose sight of the fact that I believe in local government taxes to help subsidize the cost of providing medical care for the poor. I am not saying that it has to be all private. I am saying that it should not be all government.

    1. Elaine M wrote: “What do you think about Medicare, which is a federal program? Do you think it should be abolished?”

      If we could roll back time to 1966, I would not be supportive of starting Medicare. However, the problem now is that too many people have become dependent upon it. It would not be easy to just abolish it. It would be nice to get the States to cooperate to replace it with local programs, but that is no easy task.

      I partly blame Medicare as being responsible for killing my father-in-law. Medicare is probably partly to blame here in this case with John Wrana. You see, with Medicare available, the health care providers want people like John Wrana to receive services that Medicare will pay for. People ask why they would call the police for this man to have this procedure. Because that is how they get paid. They do the procedure, tell Medicare that they did it, and voila, payment is sent to them. Same thing with just giving them a bed for rehabilitation. Family members may be willing to house the man, but with Medicare, the pressure is on from the health care professionals to institutionalize him so they can get paid for it. If John Wrana had to pay for the procedure himself, and he had no money to pay, guess what, the doctors might be saying, “it might be a good idea to do this procedure, but he really doesn’t need it.”

      Watch the people who go to the hospital with insurance and the ones who go without insurance. The one’s with insurance tend to need more care and procedures than the ones without insurance. The one’s with insurance are kept longer, to do more tests, to get paid for the tests and to look for something else to do for payment, while the one’s without insurance are discharged sooner.

Comments are closed.