New York School Bans Two Students Who Brought Confederate Flag To After-Hours Sporting Event

220px-Confederate_Rebel_Flag.svgTwo high school students at St. Anthony’s High School in Long Island have been suspended indefinitely after they walked into an after-hours sporting event wearing a Confederate flag draped over their shoulders. We recently discussed another suspension of a student involving a Confederate flag. I have the same free speech concerns in this case. The question is whether other flags would also be confiscated and the student suspended in my view. While I can certainly understand how this flag represents racism for many, others view the flag as a symbol of Southern heritage and heroism. I often see them in Virginia and recoil a bit due to the association with slavery. However, my concern is where the school is drawing the line on speech.


Brother Gary Cregan, principal of St. Anthony’s High School in South Huntington, stated that “[t]he African-American students who immediately saw it really exercised heroic restraint and fortunately a teacher immediately confiscated the flag and took the students out of the gym.” They were initially suspended for 10 days and will now be barred from returning. Cregan explained to the parents that the flag is a symbol “designed to revive past injustices or to inflame discrimination or racial intolerance, [and] is completely unacceptable and profoundly offensive.” Cregan rejected any claims that the flag represents Southern history or heritage: “I find it just very hard to even imagine why any student in 2014 would even consider or think that a Confederate flag would be anything other than a symbol of hate.” Other students supported the school and said that what matters is that some people are offended by the flag.

I find Cregan’s motives laudable and I also believe that the other students should be commended for showing restraint. However, I am unclear as to the rule applied in this case? Would the school have reacted the same way with a Soviet flag or a Chinese flag or other flags that are viewed any many to represent oppressive histories? How about a rainbow flag viewed immoral by some or an Israeli or Palestinian flag that would inflame contemporary passions? I can understand a ban on any flags or posters at sporting events, but the selection of some symbols raises question of content-based censorship. The flag clearly (and understandably) represents slavery and racism to many. However, it also represents different things to different people. Respected scholars like Civil War historian Shelby Foote have noted that the flag traditionally represented the South’s resistance to Northern political dominance. As discussing in PBS interview, he was sensitive to how many of his friends viewed it as a symbol of racism but he did not share that view. Others view it as a symbol of state’s rights or Southern culture or opposition to speech codes or politically correct sentiments. The point is that, if some flags are allowed, there are a variety of symbols that are viewed as offensive by different groups.

The school is not a state school and thus not subject to the limitation of the First Amendment. Yet, that does not mean that it should engage in arbitrary limitations on speech. I went to the website and I could not find any published rules of conduct. The question is whether there is a rule addressing after-hours events. If the rule is not clear, the question is whether it should be made more explicit as to any and all such symbols — and whether it is fair to suspend the students indefinitely. Teenagers do stupid things and I would not be surprised if this was an effort to get a rise out of everyone. However, in the official statement below, the school does not quote or cite the rule used against the students.

What also concerns me is the reference to punish two students who “blatantly disregarded the principal’s request to discontinue the use of social media to inflame discrimination in the school community by displaying an inappropriate picture and comment.” The school simply states that “These students have been appropriately acted upon.” I fail to see why a school should attempt to censor or block students in discussing this controversy — and disagreeing with the school’s actions. Even if you are comfortable with suspending the boys with the flag, these students appear to be engaging in pure debate over the merits of the rule and the response of the school. The school states “As a Catholic and Franciscan school, Saint Anthony’s will always demand acceptance and respect for all races, religions and cultures.” However, the school should also demand tolerance for different views and the protection of free speech for both its students and faculty. Ordering students not to discuss a controversy (and perhaps not challenging the school’s actions) will do little to quell the controversy. What it will do is to force the debate into the shadows will it will fester and deepen. Declaring “thou shalt not disagree” will not produce agreement — only forced silence. [There are reports that two students may have worn black face in messages on the social media. While there remains the issue of the regulation of after-hours, out-of-school communications, that is obviously a very disturbing matter. However, the general order not to discuss the controversy on social media on the issue remains highly problematic.]

The Confederate flag has not been treated in the federal courts as a form of hate speech and continues to appear in a wide variety of public locations and private displays. Ironically, for some of those students on social media, this controversy may make the flag a symbol of self-expression or resisting compelled speech codes.

What do you think? Was indefinite suspension and the bar on social media discussions warranted in this case?

DATE: April 16, 2014
RE: Confederate flag incident
From: Brother Gary Cregan, OSF, principal,
Saint Anthony’s High School, Huntington, NY
On the evening of Wednesday, April 9, 2014 at Saint Anthony’s High School, Huntington, NY, during a supervised intramural European Handball game with multiple teams, a small number of students displayed a symbol of hate – the Confederate Flag. Upon entering the gym, the flag was confiscated by faculty moderators, and the students were told to leave the property.

The two individuals who were responsible for bringing the flag to school, and for wearing it into the gym, were immediately given a long term suspension the next day. After further discussion and consultation, it became necessary to impose additional disciplinary action. In addition, two other students blatantly disregarded the principal’s request to discontinue the use of social media to inflame discrimination in the school community by displaying an inappropriate picture and comment. These students have been appropriately acted upon.

Saint Anthony’s is committed to addressing the issue of racial intolerance with faculty, students and parents through education, awareness and dialogue in an ongoing basis. The use of any symbol, either historic or current, which carries a meaning designed to revive past injustices, or to inflame discrimination or racial intolerance is completely unacceptable and profoundly offensive. As a Catholic and Franciscan school, Saint Anthony’s will always demand acceptance and respect for all races, religions and cultures.
# # #
Contact:
Christina Buehler
Director of Communications
E-mail: cbuehler@stanthonyshs.org

Source: CBS

528 thoughts on “New York School Bans Two Students Who Brought Confederate Flag To After-Hours Sporting Event

  1. While I understand the ‘rights’ debate, it is very obvious that since the US has such a nasty history of racism it is a really good idea to stamp this challenge out asap – and a ‘challenge’ is what it was – typical of teenagers – challenge those ‘in charge’ to see what disruption they can cause and who will do something about it, while they fall about laughing at their own daring
    If only a prank by the boys, then a good discussion should be had with total school participation, so they can ALL see what is involved, and the kids would get a really great educational moment from it.
    On the other hand if this was instigated by a PARENT or other ADULT(which it may well have been) then a strong message is definitely in order, and I think the school’s response was correct.

  2. “In addition, two other students blatantly disregarded the principal’s request to discontinue the use of social media to inflame discrimination in the school community by displaying an inappropriate picture and comment. These students have been appropriately acted upon.”

    I hate the double speak. If it was a “request” then why the punishment for not complying with it? It’s censorship and the school is just to cowardly to admit to it.

  3. I find this suspension completely offensive. If the students had a gay pride flag, I doubt they would have been so chastised in this way. When are educators going to take the path of communication and discussion and EDUCATION, rather than the path of censorship? Someone brings a flag you don’t like, and rather than talk about it, you bar them from your educational facility? This is wrong on so many levels.

  4. Confederate flags and the teachings of St. Francis are not compatible. As a matter of fact, they are antithetical. If one chooses to attend a religious school with a certain sentimentality, then conduct one’s self accordingly or find another school.

  5. SWM – the actions of the principal and the teachings of St. Francis are antithetical. There is NO excuse for punishing the students who used social media outside the school. Banning the students from the school permanently is PC run amok.
    My guess is that there were Franciscan schools in the South prior to and during the Civil War. .

  6. Paul, Except for New Orleans and South Texas, there were not that many catholics in the confederacy. The confederate klan did not like us too well.

  7. Seems like we are seeing a new emergence of white supremacy with more sightings of the confederate flag and the recent shootings at jewish institutions.

  8. I would support the school as private in having the right to make this decision but would disagree with it if I were connected to the school. Censorship has a way of inspiring those censored to resist even if the cause is not worthy. Better to take the opportunity to talk about the ways it is offensive and also not quite so. Opportunity for a school to actually educate.

    A bit off topic but why do so many civil libertarians construe the freedom of speech so broadly but construe the freedom of religion so narrowly as to be, as Professor Laycock has put it, to the point of vanishing?

    Be consistent.

  9. It is interesting how a symbol can mean completely different things to different people. I’ve lived in the South as a child, and it’s true. The flag is displayed in many public and private places. To many people, it represented an independent spirit and standing up to tyranny, or just being a redneck, but to others, it was a reminder that entire states went to war to continue slavery. Regardless of the connotation, it was so common that it was never a shock to see it flown.

    I believe that the events of the Reconstruction contributed to a desire to fly a symbol of pride and resistance. The North was outraged about the war, the loss of life, and slavery . . . and it showed. This was one of the reasons why there were so few punitive actions taken against Germany once it was beaten (again) in WWII. They didn’t want to recreate the conditions after WWI that sowed the seeds for a second act.

    As for the school, if they found the flag disruptive, they had to address it, but being expelled seems extreme and teaches students nothing. Did these students have a history of racism? Were they simply thoughtlessly causing a disturbance? Why not sit down with them and explain the entire history of the flag? It sounds like the principal is completely unaware that not everyone associates it with hatred and racism. And they were utterly and entirely wrong to silence a free speech debate about the issue.

    There has been a lot of debate that the Confederate Flag should be considered a hate symbol . . . period, and that those who only associate it with positive connotations are simply wrong. For me, personally, the Rebel Flag is a reminder that the South went to war to continue slavery. I wish they would come up with a new symbol to represent an inclusive Southern pride. Slavery is one of the greatest atrocities imaginable, and yet most cultures engaged in it. Amazingly, it is STILL a problem among some of the tribes in Africa today. There seems to be something inherent to our genetic code that gives humanity a propensity towards harming our fellow man. It can only be overcome through intellect and culture, the basis for our laws.

  10. “Hit the road Jack. And don’t come back.”

    The school is not a state actor. It has the moral and legal right to act as it did. Those that own it have their own free speech rights grounded in natural and then constitutional law. Their rights are primary. The students free speech rights grounded in natural law are secondary. Why? The students can leave. The school cannot. That’s where the balance lays. St. Anthony’s school, like it or leave it.

  11. SWM – just because some twinky kills someone does not mean the South is arisen. There is probably less white supremacy than there is black supremacy or Asian supremacy.

  12. Tony – I will agree with ‘my ball, my rules” however, I do not have to agree those rules are fair. In this case the school has the right to do what they did, I just think they are morally wrong in doing what they did. They showed their power, which is what they wanted. The late lamented King Joffrey would be proud of them.

  13. And the above is not primarily a legal argument. It is primarily a moral argument. That is, I can despise the schools moral stance but still value greatly their right to make their own choice of what to speak. The moral value here is that which seeks to preserve freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is not just some prophylactic procedure. Freedom of speech is great in its substance.

  14. Paul, the school could have chosen a better way. I agree. All I’m saying is I value greatly their right to be wrong.

  15. Having attended both Catholic and public schools, there are significant differences. Besides the fact that the teacher quality being superior in Catholic schools, the quality of the environment is much superior. Uniforms were required which says what it does for a sports team or military. We are all one. I do not like this action by the school. It could have been handled differently. That said, I am also painfully aware of how much our culture has changed since I was in Catholic school. St. Anthony’s Church was the Italian church in my hometown and thusly our parish. St. Joe’s for the Irish, St. Stanislaus for the Polish, St. Ann’s for the French Canadians, and St. Michaels for the Ukrainians. But, they were just kinda Catholic you know.

  16. When a student attends a private school, they are bound to obey the rules of the school. St. Anthony’s School is in NY, far enough from a southern state, so that the Confederate Flag need not be displayed.

    Since the school has a diverse population and teaches tolerance (hopefully), these students need to keep any prejudice actions and words out of the school.

    I have a feeling these students were pushing the limits in other matters also, and this may have been the last straw. Also, if there are racial tensions in a school then these articles that may spurn more tension need to be removed and the students with them.

  17. The idea that the flag represents southern heritage is BS. It’s the confederate battle flag. It represents a treasonous action against our country by terrorists who tortured and killed millions of black people, and fought a horrible war to keep it that way.

    If someone showed up at a school function with a sign that said “Kill Niggers” would the argument that it was just a celebration of southern heritage mean anything? Hate speech is hate speech, and the question of whether the person speaking it thinks it is hate speech is irrelevant. Ignorance of history is no defense.

  18. Its good to talk about what you believe is right and wrong and why. What happens when you do that is sometimes you get to kick out and sometimes you get kicked out. That’s a necessary consequence of this marketplace of ideas. It also makes life interesting. What I’m saying is that needs to be preserved at all costs. You have the right to tell me what to do and I have the right to say “F” you, I’ll do what I want.

  19. Scott, You are fundamentally incorrect about the Confederate flag. In this instance I agree this was not the southern resistance to northern oppression intent by these kids from Long Island. But, you are flat ass wrong it doesn’t have a proper historical purpose. Flat ass wrong.

  20. Scott – there were a lot of flags used in the South during the War of Northern Aggression. The one you are referring to as the Confederate battle flag was the first but was not codified. Two other major models followed. Most units fought under the flag of their state.

  21. “But, you are flat ass wrong it doesn’t have a proper historical purpose. Flat ass wrong.”

    Do you even know what that flag is? It’s not the Confederate flag. It’s the Confederate BATTLE flag.

    “southern resistance to northern oppression intent”

    Northern OPPRESSION? Are you some kind of neoconfederate? Read the cornerstone speech. The idea that this flag represents some kind of heritage is true only in the sense that it represents a heritage that is shameful, racist, treasonous, traitorous to the US. It represents torture, mass murder, kidnapping, rape…

    Next you’ll be telling me that the north could have just bought all the slaves, or if we’d have just waited another 50 years, the south would have ended slavery on their own, or some other FLAT ASS WRONG BS from Ron Paul and his buddies.

  22. Paul Schulte: “War of Northern Agression”

    Yikes. Is this a joke, or are you serious? I’m guessing by the misspelling of “aggression” that you might be serious. In which case, you need to read up on your history, son. The South started the Civil War, which was, despite all neo Confederate attempts to say otherwise, was about slavery.

  23. Hi Scott:

    The Confederate Flag, as we now know it, was never an official flag of the Confederacy. It was rejected as a national flag, but General Lee used a square version for his army of Northern VA. In fact, the Confederacy never could make up its mind about its flag, and used several throughout the war.

    This article also explains that the flag was flown by Southern soldiers in WWII, from navy ships, and is the basis for several state flags. Southern soldiers acquitted themselves bravely and with distinction in both World Wars.

    The article discusses the controversy surrounding the flag, as well as its different symbolism for different groups. So it does, in fact, mean different things to different people. There is a legitimate controversy surrounding it, but it is not always intended to be racist.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

  24. Scott, when you reach out and take a cheap shot like that which you took at Paul and you then get caught doing it, it doesn’t suffice just to say ” I’m sorry.” In addition, by the rules of manly honor, you automatically lose the entire argument and you must then tuck tail and run.

  25. Scott, I am a Ct. Yankee for chrissake. However, I was also a history teacher and taught by the Jesuits. The Confederate flag was, and still is, a symbol of fighting oppression for southerners. You can laugh @ it, you can scoff @ it, you can wipe your ass w/ it if you wish, But, that is how it is viewed by many people. THAT IS A FACT!

  26. Scott – some context here. Anyone who has ever lived or visited the South knows that the Civil War is referred to as The War of Northern Aggression. It’s a commonly used term down there, as well as States’ Rights. The War pitted neighbor against neighbor, and family against family. Some who opposed slavery nonetheless fought for the South to avoid pointing a gun at their own friends and family. Some felt so strongly against slavery and/or secession that they joined the North and did exactly that. Slave owner General Lee himself deeply opposed secession, yet felt honor bound to fight for his native Virginia.

    Explaining historical context, the controversy over the Southern Cross symbolizing different things to different people, or Southern mores do not in any way condone racism.

    If we want the South to abandon the Southern Cross for a less controversial symbol of Southern Pride, we will only accomplish it through thoughtful discussion. Otherwise we simply alienate the very people whose actions we wish to change.

  27. Tony, I said sorry for accusing Paul Schulte of misspelling “aggression.” It was a simple error, but not a cheap shot, considering that fact that the wingnuts are often terrible spellers. It’s a whole meme, you know.

    But the idea that someone who takes a cheap shot has invalidated all his other arguments is hilarious to me. I could say that you’re a freaking idiot and it wouldn’t change the validity of my other arguments, since truth isn’t dependent on the manners of the person who tells it.

    Like in this example, the truth is that this is not a heritage flag. I thank all the people who’ve added the historical context to the flag at which I was hinting. The flag as used by today’s racists and confederate apologists was not the flag of the CSA. It was a battle flag. It represents the treasonous war started by mass murderers who go rich using slave labor.

  28. How about if we maybe focus on the discussion, and not on anyone, personally?

    You are correct that the Klan uses the flag as one of its symbols. I believe that the Southern Cross is associated with racism for this, more than any other reason.

    But do read the Wikipedia notes on the different symbolism. It is amazing, but true, that it does have sentimental connotations for many that are not racist.

    And as for racists being poor spellers, recall that many of the worst Nazi perpetrators were physicians and highly educated people. And many kind-hearted people on the Underground Railroad were illiterate.

  29. Nick: “But, that is how it is viewed by many people. THAT IS A FACT!”

    I grew up in Arkansas. I have relatives who marched in Selma. I know how people in the south “view” the various flags. The one they worship, one of the Battle Flags, represents a heritage that is shameful, hateful, treasonous, and horrifically offensive to a great many people. How those good folks view the flag is irrelevant.

    I will use my example again. If those kids had a flag that said “kill and torture niggers” would we let them fly it? If they said, Oh, we don’t really mean “kill and torture niggers” it’s just the name of a Southern Rock Band that celebrates our heritage of fighting against the forces that wanted to stop our torture and mass murder of black people… would that be OK too?

  30. Paul Schulte

    … the KKK did not start until AFTER the end of the Civil War.
    =================
    That is because they were and are poor losers, poor sports, and poor citizens.

    So are their ideological descendants, whether their biological descendants are or not.

    Racism is a psychological disease, and it is about time that the southern states begin to treat the malady, instead of further impairing good cognition in their ranks.

  31. Nick Spinelli

    Scott, I am a Ct. Yankee for chrissake. However, I was also a history teacher and taught by the Jesuits. The Confederate flag was, and still is, a symbol of fighting oppression for southerners. You can laugh @ it, you can scoff @ it, you can wipe your ass w/ it if you wish, But, that is how it is viewed by many people. THAT IS A FACT!
    ==============
    But a wrong “fact” … an illusion … a myth … a historical ignorance.

    And worthless.

  32. Scott – in the South it is known as the War of Northern Aggression or The Late Unpleasantness. Depending on how you look at it, either the North or the South started it.
    If you take the Southern side, which we are right now, SC seceded, something she thought she had a clear right to do. She then demanded that Union troops in the two local forts leave the state. They moved out of the one fort and holed up in Fort Sumter. After giving them a chance to leave again and with Union reinforcements on the way by ship, sent by Lincoln, the people of SC opened up cannon fire on Fort Sumter, which eventually surrendered to SC. There were no deaths involved in the action and the prisoners were treated well. By the time the Confederacy was formed the line was drawn at the Virginia state line.
    The Battle of Bull Run or Manassas, was fought in Virginia, where the Union had invaded. Southern troops had not moved north, rather Union troops had moved south.

  33. Karen: “Explaining historical context, the controversy over the Southern Cross symbolizing different things to different people, or Southern mores do not in any way condone racism.”

    Bull. The Nazi flag means different things to different people. Are we going to allow that? Should Germany get rid of it’s laws against displays of Nazi imagery?

    This is no different. Southerners might think they’re not displaying a racist symbol, but they are. This is like the Hobby Lobby case’s ridiculous contention that the fact that these forms of birth control are NOT abortifacients doesn’t mean anything, only the fact that Hobby Lobby THINKS they are abortifacients.

    So, the argument is is that the reality doesn’t matter, only what the person doing something “thinks” is reality. So, you can fly a racist flag that represents the mass murder, torture, kidnapping, and enslavement of an entire race of people, but as long as you don’t think that’s what it represents, you’re OK.

  34. Nick Spinelli

    Scott, You are fundamentally incorrect about the Confederate flag. In this instance I agree this was not the southern resistance to northern oppression intent by these kids from Long Island. But, you are flat ass wrong it doesn’t have a proper historical purpose. Flat ass wrong.
    ==================
    True.

    It has an evil historical purpose.

    Flat ass evil.

  35. Scott – the flag of the United States represents the very same things you are accusing the Confederate flag of. Don’t forget the South was under the United States first.

  36. Scott:

    It would be pretty difficult for a flag that said “Kill all the N%^&” to have any meaning other than racism and hatred. But the Southern Cross DOES have different meanings to different people. I hope you understand. And you, yourself, alluded to such when you said “how those good folks view the flag is irrelevant.”

    Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that you acknowledge that there are people for whom the Confederate Flag has a positive, non-racist meaning. But you believe that they are wrong because of its association with the KKK and the Civil War.

    Because what I hear is a non-racist person opposing another non-racist person about what they both essentially agree on.

    Depending on the history with these kids, would you have supported the school having a conference with the kids and their parents, explaining the history of the flag? If the kids were not racist (and they could be, I do not know) would you still support expulsion? Because then they are just going to go to another school, and will have learned nothing. And what is your opinion on preventing students from discussing both sides of the issue?

  37. Paul Schulte, condescendingly trying to teach me something I already know.

    Paul, you ever read the Cornerstone Speech? Please do.

    The south was losing slavery. They saw the writing on the wall, and knew that they could not win Democratically as outlined by the US Constitution. So, they succeeded, and then started the war. The south, as you just said, fired first. The fact that Union forces stayed on US property at Ft Sumter was not an aggressive act. The south firing on them was.

  38. The great migration of blacks north after WW2 is chronicled beautifully in the book, Warmth of Other Suns. However, black families in the past 2 decades have reversed that migration and are now headed back down south. They have come to realize there are worse carpetbaggers in northern cities. They realize those carpetbagging Dems run northern cities and have turned those once great cities into cities not only bankrupt, but depraved. Talk w/ black folk who have lived in both the north and south. Many much prefer the south. The northern racists smile, take your vote and money, and shit on you. The arrogance and ignorance of northern whites knows no bounds, as evidenced here.

  39. Karen: “But the Southern Cross DOES have different meanings to different people.”

    Hobby lobby thinks the birth control it opposes is an abortifacient. It is not. Does the fact that Hobby Lobby is too stupid to know what the truth is mean they get to ignore it?

    “Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that you acknowledge that there are people for whom the Confederate Flag has a positive, non-racist meaning.”

    I believe their are people who are too ignorant and mislead about the truth about the Civil War to make good judgements about it. I think that those people do not have the right to fly racist symbols in the faces of people of the race in question.

    Note, here, that we’re not talking about banning the use of the flag. We’re talking about a school, which is supposed to teach FACTS. and the fact is that the people who think they’re not flying racist symbols when they fly that flag are wrong. It’s a racist symbol. If someone flies the swastika, but says, Oh, I’m just celebrating my German heritage, we don’t say, well, OK, if you don’t believe it’s racist, fine. We say, Um, no, it’s racist, no matter what you think about it.

    If I ran that school, I would force those kids to take a class all about racist imagery, perhaps by starting with the fact that how one perceives something cannot change what that something is.

  40. The Confederate flag has not been treated in the federal courts as a form of hate speech and continues to appear in a wide variety of public locations and private displays. Ironically, for some of those students on social media, this controversy may make the flag a symbol of self-expression or resisting compelled speech codes.

    What do you think?” – JT

    Jack and Jill went up the hill
    each had a dollar and a quarter
    Jill came back with two and a half
    do you think they went up for water?

  41. Nick’s on a tear…

    “They realize those carpetbagging Dems run northern cities and have turned those once great cities into cities not only bankrupt, but depraved. ”

    Heh. You know the new Progressive Mayor of NYC is putting an end to stop-and-frisk? You know that southern states, and many others being run by Republicans are trying to make it harder to minorities to vote?

    You know that the opposite is happening in states run by liberals and progressives?

    Now, if you were a black person who remembers the days before the Voting Rights Act, where would you most want to live? Somewhere where they’re trying to return to Jim Crow, or somewhere where they’re moving away from Jim Crow.

    Yeah, who am I kidding? You’re going to believe whatever fantasy crap you make up, not reality. But if you do want to keep on BSing like that, maybe you should provide some evidence other than some anecdotal stuff that we can’t check.

  42. Scott Supak (@ssupak)

    Nick’s on a tear…

    “They realize those carpetbagging Dems run northern cities and have turned those once great cities into cities not only bankrupt, but depraved. ”

    Heh. You know the new Progressive Mayor of NYC is putting an end to stop-and-frisk? You know that southern states, and many others being run by Republicans are trying to make it harder to minorities to vote?

    You know that the opposite is happening in states run by liberals and progressives?

    Now, if you were a black person who remembers the days before the Voting Rights Act, where would you most want to live? Somewhere where they’re trying to return to Jim Crow, or somewhere where they’re moving away from Jim Crow.

    Yeah, who am I kidding? You’re going to believe whatever fantasy crap you make up, not reality. But if you do want to keep on BSing like that, maybe you should provide some evidence other than some anecdotal stuff that we can’t check.
    ================
    The southern gentleman we all know said:

    ”We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality — judiciously, as you will — we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”

    (The Criminally Insane Epoch Arises – 3). Revisionist history is a specialty of the KKK and their ilk.

    We don’t need no stinking history, we create our own reality.

  43. Dredd: “Flat ass evil.”

    Damn straight. And people can close their eyes and cover their ears and say “NANANANANANA” as loudly as they want, but it will not change the fact that the courts have long been wrong. This flag is hate speech. Anyone who reads the Cornerstone Speech knows damn well why the south fought the north, why the south was aggressive against the north, and why after losing the war, they became terrorists like the KKK and went about lynching black people for many more decades.

    I live in upstate NY. We call this area “upper Appalachia.” I see southern flags on display all the time. It sickens me. But at least I get to express my freedom of speech as fought for by Nelson Rockefeller when I flip those confederate flag fliers off.

  44. Scott:

    Hobby Lobby opposes 4 contraceptives that can prevent a fertilized embryo from implanting in the uterus. If you read the package insert for these medications (available online), that is listed among its effects. Hobby Lobby believes that is ending a life, and a form of abortion. Whether you agree with their opinion or not, it is not “stupid.” They cover the other 16 contraceptives.

    Since 1971, pregnancy has been defined as the implantation of an embryo. Abortion ends that pregnancy. That is one of the sources of the quarrel – does ending a life before it implants “count” as abortion, and do they have the right to feel that way? If they feel that way, do they have the right to say they don’t want to pay for it? There is a line between religious freedom and access to health care that can and should be drawn. Discussing where to draw the line is healthy, even if it can be hotly contentious, but it is not stupid.

  45. Dredd and Scott – as a historian I am aware of a lot things neither of you are. As I have said before on other threads, the War of Northern Aggression is nuanced. Remember that during the War, the Northern states accepted slavery in the border states. The Emancipation Proclamation only ‘freed’ blacks in the Southern states not the border states. So, both flags flew over slavery. Both flags are racist. What do we do now?

  46. The last 2 US census clearly shows northern blacks are returning to their southern roots. So, there’s that.

  47. “Republicans are making it harder for minorities to vote.”

    If requiring ID is a Jim Crow law, then that means that banks, the DMV, and every other transaction that requires ID is racist. When a CHP pulls you over and asks for your license, he is a racist trying to prevent minorities from driving. When you cash a check and they ask for your ID, call racism!

    You cannot take one transaction and call it racist unless they ALL are. Proving who you are with a photo ID has to be racist all of the time, or none of the time.

    The reason that we developed ID in the first place was to combat fraud. And if we stop requiring voters to prove who they are, then we encourage fraud. And that will encourage tit-for-tat voter fraud. If voter fraud becomes the norm, do you believe that Republicans, Libertarians, Independents, and Democrats will be immune to the temptation, or do you think they will steal as many votes as they can? Accusing an entire political party of preventing minorities from voting is a very serious accusation. Stealing votes, standing in front of a voting booth with a club (like the Black Panthers did), or throwing votes away are legitimate examples. Asking someone to prove who they are to vote is not. Investigating voter fraud like double voting, “dead people” voting, etc is not. Every eligible person gets one vote.

    Most states already have programs in place to help people get ID. I support helping minorities, the poor, and the elderly to get photo IDs. But striking down requirements for photo IDs just seems absurd to me.

  48. We should all just take some commenters word for it, never question their authority! End of discussion, ya hear?!

  49. Arizona’s voter ID program has been approved. If you do not have ID they will even make transportation arrangements for you. There is no cost for the ID. The DOJ will not let you into their building without an ID, but they have a heart-attack when people are required to ID themselves when voting?

  50. I agree with Professor Turley on this one: “The flag clearly (and understandably) represents slavery and racism to many. However, it also represents different things to different people. Respected scholars like Civil War historian Shelby Foote have noted that the flag traditionally represented the South’s resistance to Northern political dominance. Others view it as a symbol of state’s rights or Southern culture or opposition to speech codes or politically correct sentiments. The point is that, if some flags are allowed, there are a variety of symbols that are viewed as offensive by different groups.”

  51. Paul Schulte, it’s funny how when people make the fallacy of an appeal to authority, they’re almost always buttering their own bread.

    “I am aware of a lot things neither of you are.”

    Like what? How could you possibly know what I’m aware of? Are you aware of the cornerstone speech?

    “the War of Northern Aggression is nuanced”

    The fact that you keep referring to it as that is not.

    “both flags flew over slavery.”

    Well, DUH. It’s in the US constitution! And Lincoln said he’d keep slavery if we could keep the country together. Ironically, the south sealed their own fight with the Southern War of Aggression on the North. They could have kept raping, torturing, and killing millions of blacks if they’d have just kept their bullets in their guns. They could have worked out another 3/5ths deal!

    But the fact is that Lincoln went on to fight for the 13th Amendment, which the south vigorously opposed. And the south went right on fighting for their right to torture, rape, and kill black people for decades. They still fight for their right to disenfranchise blacks, and many politicians, including the Pauls, say that we shouldn’t even allow the CRA’s non-discriminatory provisions, meaning we should let the south go back to Whites Only establishments.

    So, yeah, Mr. Historian, tell me more about what I don’t know.

  52. THE US CENSUS! Not my authority, THE US CENSUS. For a Shiite liberal, they say amongst their ilk, “stupid idiots, don’t they know they’re better off up here?”

  53. KarenS, And as you know, Shelby Foote is a preeminent US historian. He was great in Ken Burn’s Baseball doc. Being a lover of baseball, you know he’s a higher order thinker.

  54. Scott – I told you that the North invaded the South. What more do you want? The troops in Fort Sumter were on land owned by the state of South Carolina after they seceded. Staying in the fort was an act of aggression against the state of SC.

  55. Scott, I was trying to add a little humor in an attempt to lessen the heat. I thought perhaps it might help to open some minds. Maybe I was wrong about that. You’re correct in holding that your mistake doesn’t validate your argument. And since you raised the issue, you’re, on the other hand, absolutely incorrect in your assertion that what you did was not a cheap shot. It was.

  56. Nick and Karen – how do you think the school would have reacted if the students had come in draped in the “Don’t Tread on Me” flag?

  57. Karen: Shelby Foote! Facepalm…

    “The flag clearly (and understandably) represents slavery and racism to many. However, it also represents different things to different people. ”

    The flag represents what it represents. Just because one is willfully ignorant of the bad things it represents doesn’t mean it doesn’t represent them.

    Hobby lobby:

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/03/hobby-lobby-supreme-court-obamacare

    “They don’t object to covering all contraception, only the emergency contraceptive pills Plan B and Ella and intrauterine devices (IUDs), which they (erroneously) believe are abortifacients.”

    Don’t believe Mother Jones? Call a Dr.

    “You cannot take one transaction and call it racist unless they ALL are. Proving who you are with a photo ID has to be racist all of the time, or none of the time.”

    Hilarious. So, if I stop a group of kids and only search the black kid it’s only racist if I always do that?

    Fact is that there is no epidemic of in-person voter fraud. These laws are meant to serve one purpose, and you know what it is. But ID laws aren’t the only form of disenfranchisement. All kinds of other fun things happen in these states. Less voting machines in minority districts. Less polling places in minority districts. ALL KINDS OF THINGS that you will continue to ignore since they are inconvenient for your argument.

  58. I visited the Dachau concentration camp when I lived in Germany in the early ’80s. I was surprised that the Germans did not bulldoze the camps when the country was being rebuilt after WWII. Instead they were turned into memorials. Which I found weird. A camp where many thousands of innocent people were murdered was now a cross between a cheezy tourist attraction and hallowed ground, but certain symbols we associate with Nazism, like the Swastika and an arm gesture mimicking the “Heil Hitler” salute were illegal. Apparently the Germans feared the ideas represented by the symbols so much that they deemed it necessary to make the symbols themselves illegal (at least it was illegal back in the early ’80s).

    As repugnant as the Swastika is to Germans, displaying it violates nobody’s liberty. And outlawing it may make some Germans feel better about themselves, merely outlawing a repugnant symbol does not prevent people from thinking repugnant thoughts (i.e., neo-nazi thoughts). While I can see how the Confederate flag is to us what the swastika is to Germans, I am in the camp that says the proper antidote to speech you don’t like is more speech. Let them display the Confederate flag and then hold a protest, or write op-eds, or whatever to explain why they are wrong. Denounce them. Shun them. But I’m not in favor of censoring them or penalizing them. A repugnant symbol may hurt some feelings, but nobody’s liberty is harmed.

  59. Scott, That would have been a tougher call. I think as long as the school wasn’t in say, Cooperstown, they would have grudgingly allowed it. Hell, that has probably happened in some school and we just don’t know about it.

  60. Groty, Great comment, keep them up. As I said, for these kids I would bet 5k they weren’t making a northern oppression statement, their statement was racial. But, being a history teacher I will never abide people ignorant of history trying to rewrite it.

  61. No need to keep talking. You admitted I was right and you were wrong, profoundly wrong. The first step in solving a problem is admitting you have one.

  62. This is an after hours event…. School sanctioned….. But still after hours….. But for being a private school they’d be home free….

  63. For the vast majority of black folk they do consider their roots to be the southern US. Alex Haley did much to teach black folk of their African roots. But to tell black people where they should believe their roots lie is condescending and paternalistic, the qualities of all great Shiite liberals,

  64. Groty1: Display of Nazi symbols is still illegal in Germany. And keeping the camps as historic reminders of the evil is exactly what we should do in the south. Unfortunately, much of the worst aspects of slavery have been erased by a south eager to maintain it’s right to be racist, but not so big on open displays of the results of that racism. Alabama could learn a lot from Germany.

    ” I am in the camp that says the proper antidote to speech you don’t like is more speech. ”

    So am I. If this was a group of people who applied for and got permission for, say, a parade, like the Nazi’s in Skokie, then fine. But this is a school. And this was spontaneous. Opponents of the Confederate flag didn’t have to time to prepare a proper counter demonstration for the after hours sporting event. (This makes me wonder why theses students did this? Were there blacks on the opposing team?)

  65. Scott – as I said, it is nuanced. I am taking the Southern side (which I told you I was doing from the beginning), you are taking the Northern side. I hate to be a grammar nazi, but since you have done this twice, I am not sure if it is your autocorrect or you. The word is ‘secession’ not ‘succession.’

  66. Paul: Scott – as I said, it is nuanced. I am taking the Southern side (which I told you I was doing from the beginning), you are taking the Northern side. I hate to be a grammar nazi, but since you have done this twice, I am not sure if it is your autocorrect or you. The word is ‘secession’ not ‘succession.’

    Autocorrect run amock. Thank you.

    It’s not really nuanced. In fact, it’s achingly simple. Read the Cornerstone speech. The south saw the writing on the wall. They were not going to get to continue their war on black people under the democracy of the US. This is why they seceded. The war was about White Supremacy. They said so themselves on many occasions.

    And, as for this side-taking thing, I’m not “taking” a side. I know what the war was about, and I know that those who display the hateful images of the south are perpetuating the racism on which those images are based. How about you? Do you honestly believe this “Northern War of Aggression” BS?

  67. Scott,

    Just remember…. Nick always wants the civility rules enforced…. I am sure he is remiss in this….. But if you want a heads up…. Just write the professor and attach a link to who has attacked you…. You see there is someone on here that keeps doing that with me….. And the professor and I have chatted about it…. For some reason…. His intent as stated …..was to get me banned from Turley and that I should go as I am a relic…. Just an FYI…..

  68. I think that Professor Turley should add another rule to the Civility Rules. Continuous denigration of other commenters’ professions should be a deletable offense.

  69. Groty1 wrote: “While I can see how the Confederate flag is to us what the swastika is to Germans, I am in the camp that says the proper antidote to speech you don’t like is more speech.”

    Exactly! This is especially true for an institution of education.

  70. I’ve had my PI profession denigrated here many times. I don’t like it, but that is the price of free speech.

  71. Scott wrote: “I take every shot I can at the right wing, warmongering, rights denying, economy wrecking, market rigging, upward redistributing morons that I can take, cheap or otherwise.”

    It is ironic how you take this approach by siding with a Republican President (Lincoln) and objecting to the flag of Southern Democrats.

  72. Also what happened to the rule of not bringing off blog information about another commenter to this blog’s comments section?

  73. I am willing to stop this silly back and forth w/ Scott. Peanut gallery comments are always counter productive to calming an incendiary thread.

  74. Scott invites a link w/ his very name!! Just click it. He wants people to click it. He wants controversy to get clicks. Geez! Now stop the silliness everyone. This is a good topic.

  75. David and Groty, The preservation of the Nazi death camps are applauded by the victims of the Holocaust and their families. “Never forget” is the mantra.

  76. Deletion notice: I have deleted a series of comments of Scott Supak that violate our civility rule. I have not banned Scott because he is new to our site and may not be familiar with the rule. Scott, despite our discussion of passionate and divisive issues, we do not engage in personal attacks or engage in tit-for-tat exchanges. Please comply with the rule if you would like to continue to share thoughts on our blog. From your statement that “civility is overrated” it would appear that you may not agree with our policy. I respect that and I know that there are many sites that do not have such a policy. Please respect our desire to preserve this site for civil and mature discourse.

    Nick, I have also deleted a comment about looking into Scott’s website etc to end the tit-for-tat.

  77. David, I go back to the fact that while I disagree w/ what this private school did, there are different rules for public and private schools. Just like there are different rules for public and private employees. The Hatch Act being a good example.

  78. Sir, I respect the no outside blog comments. However, since Scott invites folks to explore his website I thought it a different situation. You say it is not, and I will now abide that.

  79. ^ Ta-Nehisi Coates.

    The Civil War Isn’t Tragic

    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/04/the-civil-war-isnt-tragic/237888/

    “It’s really simple for me. One group of Americans attempted to raise a country on property in Negroes. Another group of Americans, many of them Negroes themselves, stopped them. As surely as we lack the ability to see tragedy in violently throwing off the yoke of the English, I lack the ability to see tragedy in violently throwing off the yoke of slaveholders.”

  80. Paul Schulte

    Dredd … as a historian I am aware of a lot things neither of you are.

    The troops in Fort Sumter were on land owned by the state of South Carolina after they seceded. Staying in the fort was an act of aggression against the state of SC.
    ===============
    That is something I did not know … that state law (secession) trumps federal law … you are a regular genus Paul.

    You are definitely a historian after the order of Karl:

    ”We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality — judiciously, as you will — we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”

    (my quote of Karl up-thread). As a revisionist historian you “know” a lot of things I don’t care to “know.”

  81. Scott,

    You see somebody beat you to notifying the professor….. I’m not sure why he has to be bothered except to restrain others from doing what’s complained about…. You see I stated someone was a hypocrite and I got a deletion too….. So…. It’s up in the air….

  82. “we do not engage in personal attacks or engage in tit-for-tat exchanges.”

    I see it in here all the time. But maybe you just miss some?

    I don’t care about being investigated. Nick’s right. Go look at my site, I don’t care, but the fallacy of suggesting that someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about is worth keeping up there.

    I mean, pretty stiff rule here for someone who’s so pro free speech that he supports the CItizens United decision.

    Further, a lot of good stuff just got deleted. Because, why? I use the term “wingnut”? Or “BS?” Because both have philosophical underpinnings. Is calling someone an extremist or an obfuscater better?

  83. Yeah, if all my best points are going to be taken down because I don’t use the word extremist instead of wingnut, then what’s the point? I have to say “you’re not telling the truth” instead of “that’s BS.” What a joke. I would think lawyers of all people would have thicker skin.

    Professor, the really sad thing here is that you’re not addressing any of these points. I take it you don’t get into the comments often?

    I’d really be interested in hearing what you have to say about the point that just because someone doesn’t think their Nazi/Confederate flag is racist doesn’t make it not racist. To put something that offensive in someone’s face and then deny that it’s offensive, especially when you base that denial on complete and utter historical LIES, is, where I come from, fighting words. It’s an insult of the highest order and invites confrontation. And unless those kids were prepared to have a large group get in their face and practice their own free speech rights, then they shouldn’t have been so willing to dish it out.

    As far as this case goes, these kids shouldn’t have done this, and they shouldn’t be allowed to do this. They can have a time to express their pride in their racist heritage in another school-sanctioned setting, but to do so without permission in a sporting event invites disruption at a school setting. And you know very well that schools have a right to keep disruptions from happening.

  84. Paul, There is much great dirt in the rags. But trust me, having an inside source is much better than any rag. And, to hopefully end the animus, I bet Scott has a lot of real world experience and some GREAT stories. He could maybe relate some sans names. Everyone would love it and it would help ease the tension.

  85. Anon: “You see I stated someone was a hypocrite and I got a deletion too….. So…. It’s up in the air”

    OH, come on… Really, professor? One cannot call a hypocrite a hypocrite?

    Is there a page around here that gives me the proper euphemisms?

  86. Censorship is censorship. Private school… follow their rules or you can be asked to leave… However, what they did WAS censorship.

    Tolerance on the other hand… truly seems to be more nuanced than many in today’s America are capable of understanding.

    Remember… silencing a debate is not the same thing as winning one.

  87. Scott wrote: “Further, a lot of good stuff just got deleted. Because, why? I use the term “wingnut”? Or “BS?” Because both have philosophical underpinnings. Is calling someone an extremist or an obfuscater better?”

    What are you aiming at, Scott? If you are aiming at the person, that’s the wrong target. Aim at the topic of discussion. We don’t care what you think about Nick.

  88. davidm2575

    “It is ironic how you take this approach by siding with a Republican President (Lincoln) and objecting to the flag of Southern Democrats.”

    Ugh… I get sick of the same, um, lack of education (?) on display time and time again. I occasionally come to these Turley threads hoping for some intelligent conversation, and I’m always sadly disappointed.

    When LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act, he turned to Bill Moyers, who was working for him at the time, and said “We’ve lost the south for a generation.”

    He was wrong. It’s been longer than a generation.

    I see Republicans and various other … uh … extremists on the right… make this argument all the time. All it does is expose your horrible …er… uh… propensity to not care about what is true of not… in matters of race, like with many other matters, the two parties have switched places. Teddy Roosevelt was a progressive. Ronald Reagan, not so much. But Reagan couldn’t win the GOP nomination today. That’s how far the GOP has shifted.

    “…when you find yourself constantly going back to the era of Abraham Lincoln to find someone who makes your party look good, it may be time for a little self-reflection.”–Hunter, Daily Kos

  89. The ACLU supported the Nazi’s right to march in Skokie. The KKK gets their support to march peacefully. This is protected political speech. When I was a Vista volunteer, w/ my bleeding heart staining all my shirts, that was what liberals understood better than anyone. PC has destroyed liberalism.

  90. Symbols have no intrinsic meaning. They mean whatever people understand them to mean. Scott, I’m afraid you are simply wrong when you state that the Confederate Battle Flag has only the meaning that YOU deem it have, despite the objective fact that it has different meanings to different people.

  91. Dredd – once you secede all territory within your boundaries belongs to you. Ask the Crimeans. I accept some of Annie’s posts based on her knowledge of her field and I accept the knowledge of some others based on their intimate knowledge of their field. A call to authority is not an automatic logic fallacy. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. ;) A call to authority is like calling on Ta-Nehisis whose specialty is writing and blogging. As the son of a stay-at-home dad and Black Panther, Ta-Nehisis has an intimate knowledge of slavery. /s

    Now, I have spent a lot of time studying slavery and the history of slavery, including slavery in the USA. I was in the process of doing research for a possible book. I have also spent time studying the causes of the War of Northern Aggression and several of the battles. I do know more about it than the average bear. Still there are those who know more than I do and I accept that. However, no one in this discussion has shown me that they know more about it than me.

  92. Scott,

    You’ve been around this rodeo long enough to know….. There’s just a new nuisance on the site today…… They take the attitude that they can do as they care and rat out anyone that disagrees with them….. Used to a little mud slinging was ok ….. Then came the day that it was no longer acceptable…..

    It’s kinda fun to watch the drama unfold….

  93. I was just riffing on the hilarious and clean comedian, Jim Gaffigan. He calls his wife a “Shiite Catholic.” I take back my “Shiite liberal” comment and will not use it again.

    Oh, and I smell peanuts.

  94. Nick, wrong again. I support the Nazi’s right to March in Skokie. I would vote to allow the KKK to have a rally down main street right here in upper Appalachia. In fact, I was the first to bring that up in this thread, in one of my now deleted comments responding to your personal attacks on me that completely ignored all of my on point responses to you.

    Liberals still support free speech. Conservatives still attack the ACLU. 70% of Democrats, for example, voted against renewing the Patriot Act, only 14% of Republicans did.

    But this isn’t a few kids who got permission to have a parade down main street. They didn’t get a permit to have a rally in a public park. They just up and decided they were going to wear symbols of rape, torture, kidnapping, and mass murder to a sporting event. Honestly, this really makes me wonder about the racial composition of the opposing team. Of the home team…

    To blame any ensuing ruckus on those who were offended by these symbols is the height of, um… a lack of concern for the basic facts surrounding the civil war and the ensuing display of the symbols of the aggressive traitors who started a war to defend their supposed God-given right to White Supremacy.

    Gee, I hope that’s not too harsh.

  95. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – once you secede all territory within your boundaries belongs to you.

    ==================
    You already ran that fantasy by me.

    Now it is a pathological lie.

    States cannot pass a law that is above federal law.

    Federal law is supreme.

    If you want someone who will agree with your self-deceit, go talk to Karl Christian Rove.

    He got revisionist up the wah zoo.

  96. Scott – there are Rules of Civility we are supposed to follow. I have had stuff deleted too, as have several others. Try to go for the argument not the person. The tab to the Rules is on the home page.

  97. Dredd – actually prior to the South seceding, a couple of Northern states raised the idea of seceding. The reason you cannot secede (there is no Constitutional provision) is that the South lost the War of Northern Aggression. Had they won, you clearly could secede. And they did secede for 4 years. Technically, the colonies seceded from England and set up their own government.

  98. @ Scott, “I will use my example again. If those kids had a flag that said “kill and torture niggers” would we let them fly it? If they said, Oh, we don’t really mean “kill and torture niggers” it’s just the name of a Southern Rock Band that celebrates our heritage of fighting against the forces that wanted to stop our torture and mass murder of black people… would that be OK too?”

    You’re confusing two different things. One is whether or not a symbol can have different meanings to different people, and more specifically whether the Confederate Battle Flag has different meanings to different people, including non-racist, non-hate meanings. Two is whether a symbol that might have different meanings to different people (some good, some bad) SHOULD be displayed. You’re factually wrong on the first point. The second is a much more nuanced question on which I may not necessarily disagree with you, especially when it comes to a private school in NY.

  99. Any law, act, resolution, or the like by any state to secede is void ab initio.

    That is politically correct (PC), historically correct (HC), legally correct (LC), and analytically correct (AC).

    Some folks can’t stand to be correct.

    I love being politically correct.

  100. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – actually prior to the South seceding, a couple of Northern states raised the idea of seceding.

    ================
    Guess which ones woke up and which ones did not.

    Obsess much?

  101. Only one Senator voted against the pernicious Patriot Act the first time. That was my home senator, Russ Feingold. I have said here MANY times he was my favorite US senator and I voted and supported him throughout his career. The US Senate needs him now more than ever. I know this does not comport w/ what you think, and have said about me. Maybe you might want to pause and consider the fact that you are wrong about more?

    Marching requires permits. Free speech does not, at least NOT YET!!

  102. Paul, “A call to authority is like calling on Ta-Nehisis whose specialty is writing and blogging.”

    Wrong. A call to authority is when someone says “I was a teacher and you were a stagehand so I know what I’m talking about and you don’t.”

    In my case, I specifically referenced someone who is known for writing on this subject, just as another, um, extremist Republican referenced Shelby Foote.

    “As the son of a stay-at-home dad and Black Panther, Ta-Nehisis has an intimate knowledge of slavery.”

    Genetic fallacy. You have attacked the source instead of the subject matter. I gave a specific quote from Ta Nehisi, from a specific article, in which he was making a very specific point. If you have trouble arguing the point, that’s your problem, and your attacks on him only make you look weak when you don’t also attack his point.

    “Now, I have spent a lot of time studying slavery and the history of slavery, including slavery in the USA. I was in the process of doing research for a possible book. I have also spent time studying the causes of the War of Northern Aggression and several of the battles. I do know more about it than the average bear.”

    Good thing I’m not a bear. This is the classic appeal to authority. You are suggesting, without going into any of the specifics of this conversation, that you know more than I. What you claim to know is wrong. Ft Sumter was US property. Just like an embassy in any other country is US property. If the US has a military base in Crimea, the land is still US property, even though Crimea is now part of Russia, and not the Ukraine. There are still some issues of international law involved here, but I’ll just ignore those for the sake of your argument.

    “However, no one in this discussion has shown me that they know more about it than me.”

    And yet you refuse to accept the basic facts that have been put forth to you. You continue to call the Civil War the War of Northern Aggression, when really it was just one battle in a centuries long war on black people that has only recently begun to subside to the point where we don’t have to pick strange fruit from our southern trees anymore.

  103. Any hate flag waiver here,

    Give me an example of any entity that became a state by permission of federal law (via congress) that seceded and is no longer a state within the United States.

    Otherwise, drop out of hysterical school, and go back to a competent history class.

  104. I’m a big fan of Russ, Nick. And I wish more Libertarians would vote for progressives with whom they agree on so much. And yet, they usually don’t. Because of guns, or freshwater economics, or whatever, they prefer to vote for Republicans.

    And the fact is that the Democratic Party has changed a lot since Russ cast his brave vote. As I said, 70% of Democrats voted against renewing the Patriot Act. As we continue to purge blue dogs and grow the Congressional Progressive Caucus (which is now the biggest caucus on the hill of either party), we’ll get even better at protecting civil liberties.

    Free speech has limits. You can’t yell fire in a theater, and you can’t just show up at sporting events wearing symbols of mass murder, torture, rape, and kidnapping. If you want to express views that will cause a disruption at an event that is NOT ABOUT your vindictive views on race, then you shouldn’t be doing that at that venue. You should do it in a situation where authorities are standing by to break up the inevitable fighting that will break out when an entire race of people is insulted to their faces with imagery that represents White Supremacy. You should do it in a planned manner so that counter protesters have a right to respond in real time on the spot.

  105. Hi Scott:

    Could you explain to me, please, how having to prove who you are disenfranchises minority voters? They need a photo ID to engage in many transactions here in the US, such as banking, and driving a car. I believe I explained how actions such as physically blocking voters or throwing their votes away would be examples of interfering with the vote. But proving who you are does not. In fact, there are already many programs in place that help people get IDs. I certainly support expanding those where they are needed. So it appears that you are ascribing motives to me that I do not actually have.

    Could you also please explain how it is racist to require a photo ID to vote, but not to require it to drive a car or cash a check?

    Here is a list of documented voter fraud: http://www.truethevote.org/news/how-widespread-is-voter-fraud-2012-facts-figures Human nature being what it is, people of low character can and do succumb to temptation. Why would you assume that it would not happen? The consequences, if you are wrong, is that anyone can have his vote stolen, including minorities. And that truly disenfranchises voters. There is nothing wrong with wanting to prevent fraud. In fact, it should be something most people agree on.

    You asked if it would only be racist if you always searched only black kids. In your hypothetical example, you chose only a black kid to search but gave no reason why. If you are looking for a black suspect that matched that kid’s description then, no, obviously it would not be racist. I don’t think you picked a good example.

    I also explained the currently accepted medical definition of pregnancy as an implanted embryo, and that HL’s objection is that the package insert of those medications states that they can prevent an embryo from implanting. They are certainly entitled to their opinion and their day in court.

  106. “Any law, act, resolution, or the like by any state to secede is void ab initio.”

    Heh. And, along the same vein, it’s like they’re saying, well, that law didn’t apply to us because we nullified it.

  107. Wasn’t the legal issue divorce? Did united states have a right to disunite? Does a spouse have a right to divorce? Does the other spouse have the right to hunt it down and kill it like Lincoln did? What were Lincoln’s views on divorce?

  108. Scott – first you missed the sarcasm off ( /s ) after the comment on Ta-Nehisis. And although you raise an interesting point about embassies, Fort Sumter was not an embassy. It was now a foreign fort on the soil of SC. All countries have a right to protect themselves from foreign invasion. That is what SC was doing when it fired on Fort Sumter.
    As I said and you were kind enough to quote I have studied slavery both historically and in the USA and the Civil War. I actually took a 3 semester hour course in college on the Civil War.
    Are you contending that you are more knowledgeable than I am in these areas? If so, please show your bona fides.

  109. Any hate flag waver here,

    Here is some history:

    Norton v. Shelby County, 118 U.S. 425, 442 (1886), where the court said “[a]n unconstitutional act is not a law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties; it affords no protection; it creates no office; it is, in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed.”

    Secession is a vain imagination held by vain historians and vain legislators whose acts are void ab initio.

  110. Scott – do you know what we currently call a group you join and cannot unjoin? We call it a cult. The Constitution has been so twisted over time that it sometimes does not make sense.

  111. John

    Wasn’t the legal issue divorce? …
    ===============
    No.

    There was no legal issue, just vain jangling by vain people who are incapable of understanding reality.

  112. If states did not have a right to disunite or separate, wouldn’t the country have simply been called America not the United States of America? The use of the word united recognizes the potential for separation in the indeterminate future.

  113. Paul Schulte

    … do you know what we currently call a group you join and cannot unjoin? We call it a cult. The Constitution has been so twisted over time that it sometimes does not make sense.
    =================
    Speak for yourself about it not making sense and you will be making some sense.

    I am beginning to see that anything contrary to your historical and legal fantasy is difficult for you to undestand.

    Your misconception is something you can’t seem to leave and so it must be a cult, by your own definition.

  114. Waldo

    “You’re confusing two different things.”

    Not.

    “One is whether or not a symbol can have different meanings to different people”

    No, we’re not talking about symbols in general. We’re speaking about a very specific symbol. So, let’s just say they had the Nazi flag. Is your argument that the swastika has different meanings for different people? (Spare me the use of swastika looking symbols in other cultures, you know what I’m talking about).

    And if I say, well, TO ME the swastika is just about my proud German heritage, does that give me the right to wear it at a school function where, say, a Jewish School is playing a game against us? I would argue only if cleared ahead of time so that the Jewish students could wear American WWII uniforms with big “We kicked your racist butts” on the back.

  115. Numerous flags are inspired by the saltier or St Andrew’s Cross. William Porcher Miles, designer of the Confederate Battle Flag never claimed it to be a St. Andrew’s cross design, but rather a heraldic saltier without religious symbolism. Saint Andrew was the first apostle of Jesus Christ. Brother of Simon Peter, and follower of John the Baptist. The Saint Andrew cross is one of the oldest national flags of all, dating back at least to the 12th century. If the American Indian has to put up with the Flag of the United States on every porch ? Well — St Anthony High what say you, regarding what other issues you might have to put up with by being Catholic ?

  116. “Your misconception is something you can’t seem to leave and so it must be a cult, by your own definition.”

    Ouch.

    Dredd, you have a new fan. What’s your blog address again? I need the RSS feed.

  117. John

    If states did not have a right to disunite or separate, wouldn’t the country have simply been called America not the United States of America? The use of the word united recognizes the potential for separation in the indeterminate future.
    =================
    Some folks need a little help with their stability.

    They don’t want to be a part of anything that would have them as a member.

  118. buckaroo, when the US no longer exists, then anyone who wears the US flag onto a reservation had better watch his back. In the mean time, we took this country by force from the native Americans, but we do have a legal way for what’s left of them to, at the very least, express their well-founded grievances against the US, and even a way to try to put us on a more progressive path away from empire and fascism and theft of land and labor. I have joined in this path towards a better country along with them.

    The CSA, on the other hand, no longer exists. This fact makes me want to dress as General Sherman and walk down the Streets of that great American City Atlanta. I imagine the quite large black population of that city would greet me as a liberator.

  119. Scott wrote: “in matters of race, like with many other matters, the two parties have switched places.”

    Ridiculous revisionist history. Democrat political scientists make this false claim in order to hijack an issue that Republicans were right about. Kennedy and Johnson joined with Republicans for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and that was a good thing, but now Democrats falsely claim repeatedly that Republicans are racists. It’s all a lie. I don’t know any Republican racists. The only racists I do know are Democrats.

  120. Scott:

    My reference to Shelby Foote was copied and pasted (and reference) from Professor Turley’s original post. It was merely to illustrate that symbols can have multiple meanings to different people. This fact was also discussed in my Wikipedia link.

  121. Scott – the swastika has a very different meaning in a lot of different cultures. For instance, there is a big swastika carved in the rock by the Anasazi or the Navajo at the entrance to Canyon de Chelly. This was carved long before the Nazis came to power. It is an important symbol in Asian and East Asian art.

  122. Before anyone hits the “enter” key, please keep the following in mind:

    Either Professor Turley’s site is strictly restricted to like-minded people who simply murmur assent to every comment, or it is open to discussions from different points of view. I personally find the latter more interesting.

    Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, and Independents often want the same things; they just disagree (passionately) on how to accomplish those goals.

  123. Scott,

    “No, we’re not talking about symbols in general.”

    Sounds like you’re agreeing with me that symbols, generally, mean what people think they mean.

    “We’re speaking about a very specific symbol. So, let’s just say they had the Nazi flag. Is your argument that the swastika has different meanings for different people? (Spare me the use of swastika looking symbols in other cultures, you know what I’m talking about).”

    Yes we are talking about a specific symbol, and an honest examination of it shows that it does in fact have non-racist, not-hate meanings to many people as Prof. Turley, Karen, and others have shown. As to the Nazi swastika, unlike the Confederate flag, I’m not aware of it having different meanings to different people, such as “I’m proud of my German heritage.”

    “And if I say, well, TO ME the swastika is just about my proud German heritage, does that give me the right to wear it at a school function where, say, a Jewish School is playing a game against us? I would argue only if cleared ahead of time so that the Jewish students could wear American WWII uniforms with big “We kicked your racist butts” on the back.”

    You’re back to my second point about whether a symbol that has different meanings to different people should be displayed. That’s a much more difficult question, but one that should be informed by first recognizing the different common understandings of what the symbol may represent and may be intended to represent in that particular instance.

  124. Paul: “Fort Sumter was not an embassy.”

    I didn’t say it was. I said that the rule applying to US Military bases overseas is the same as for embassies. US Military bases are US property no matter what state, or temporary blip of a racist country, they are located within the borders of.

    “All countries have a right to protect themselves from foreign invasion. ”

    Yep. That is exactly what the Union soldiers at Sumter were doing when the US soil they were on was attacked by southerners. Although, those southerners weren’t really a foreign invasion, as Dredd has pointed out, because there is no such thing as secession.

    “As I said and you were kind enough to quote I have studied slavery both historically and in the USA and the Civil War. I actually took a 3 semester hour course in college on the Civil War.”

    Here you go again with the appeal to authority. I also took a three hour course on the Civil War. I also took political philosophy classes, political science classes, a history class called “war and money” that covered economic aspects of the Civil War. But I’m not claiming that those things are what make me right. What makes me right is that I know the actual history and law, and you’re just making stuff up.

    I took American History in High School from a confederate apologist. The fact that he was the teacher and I was the student didn’t make him any less wrong than you are.

    “Are you contending that you are more knowledgeable than I am in these areas? ”

    I’m saying that everything you’ve said here has been demonstrably wrong, and the fact that you continue to address the responses to your… um… various untruths and half truths… tells me that you really have no argument, so much as you just hope you can maybe influence some people by putting forward your flawed theories in a comment section on the internet.

    I have no idea how “knowledgeable” you are about the entire war because I can never know what you know. For all I know, you might be great with dates, places, battles, soldiers, and all kinds of other details, but when you put those details together into an incoherent theory that the war was of Northern Aggression, when in reality was a war of White Supremacist Aggression, then your Knowledge has led you to a demonstrably wrong conclusion.

  125. Scott, Free speech is not tidy, pretty, or put in a little box w/ a bow. It is often ugly, untimely and untidy, and not constrained by unilateral boundaries. Any real supporter of Russ Feingold should know that, I’ve heard him say it many times.

  126. Karen, I like the mix of right/left commenters on Professor Turley’s comments sections. If folks can refrain from getting personal, it would be even better. I’ve been attempting to do so despite continuous provocations, but I think it’s doable.

  127. Scott – there used to be an organization called the Sons of Sherman’s March to the Sea or the SSMS. It only cost a dollar to join and you got a membership card good for your lifetime. You could check to see if they exist.

    Regarding taking land from the Indians, most liberals forget that the Indians were taking land from each other. The Apache and Navajo were chased into Arizona by the Comanches. The Iroquois wiped out the Mohicans, hence the book Last of the Mohicans. The Arawak and Caribs were genocidal groups working their way up the Caribbean Islands. The only reason the Spanish defeated the Aztecs is that they allied with the various tribes the Aztecs had conquered. No one has clean hands here. The biggest Indian massacre in Arizona was caused when Pima and Papago Indians joined some whites to track down Apache raiders. The Indians were responsible for the massacre.

  128. Scott, I am hoping to clear up what appears to be genuine confusion on your part. If you visited here prior to January, it was indeed quite uncivil. It changed in January. I love your passion and truly do hope you stick around. But, the roster has changed here and has much more diversity. I believe you can adapt and hope you do.

  129. Scott,

    I am sorry that you view my deletions as arbitrary but your comments were not close questions under our rule. I understand that you do not like the civility policy which you previously stated was useless. That is a view shared by many on the Internet. It is simply not the rule at this site. I ask that you respect that policy or to contribute to other sites, including your own. Your cooperation is greatly appreciated.

  130. Actually, I am going to accept the War of White Supremist Aggression as a different name for the War of Northern Aggression. I this case the white north attacked the South.

  131. buckaroo, My wife and I spent 2 days last on the Hopi and Navajo reservations in Northern Arizona. We saw many US flags and several billboards proudly showing local Indians who fought and died in the recent wars. I have been to many reservations but this was by far the largest. No casinos. Some of my favorite people. They are speakers of few words, much like myself. I have always felt a kinship.

  132. Waldo…

    “Sounds like you’re agreeing with me that symbols, generally, mean what people think they mean.”

    How on earth does that follow from me pointing out the exact opposite. AGAIN: We’re not talking about symbols in general. We’re talking about a specific symbol. Not all symbols are the same. The history of how those symbols were used become part of the definition of what those symbols mean.

    “an honest examination of it shows that it does in fact have non-racist, not-hate meanings to many people as Prof. Turley, Karen, and others have shown.”

    Again, if I say the swastika is only about my German heritage, does that mean that it no longer represents Hitler and the Holocaust?

    And if the people wearing swastikas tell us that they are not racists, should we take them at their word? Does it even matter what they think? What they think doesn’t change the fact that the flag is a racist symbol, just like the swastika is.

    If they do think that, then they should use their free speech to try to explain to us all how it’s really black people’s fault for taking offense at the symbol because the people wearing it didn’t mean it that way?

    “I’m not aware of it having different meanings to different people, such as “I’m proud of my German heritage.””

    So, because no one actually says a swastika is only a sign of pride in one’s German heritage, that means it’s not a valid point? I’ve heard skinheads tell me that the swastika is only a symbol of pride in the white race, not in hatred for other races. Doesn’t make it so.

    “whether a symbol that has different meanings to different people should be displayed.”

    As you pointed out, wearing these symbols in a private school sporting event isn’t anywhere near the right venue for such speech. But I’m not advocating that we ban the southern flag or the swastika. I support free speech. That includes my right to flip off, to their faces, as I often do, the people who dare to put racist imagery on their vehicles or shirts. The fact that they claim their symbol isn’t racist in the context of their displaying it, because they claim they’re not racists, does shield them from my free speech right to disagree with them, or to expose their lies.

    “what the symbol may represent and may be intended to represent in that particular instance”

    The Swastika and the Confederate flag ALWAYS represent racism and white supremacy. The fact that the neo confederate displaying it claims that he doesn’t mean it that way in no way makes it stop representing those awful things.

  133. I did cringe last Friday when we drove by @ a Burger King on the Navajo rez and they had a WW2 Code Talkers museum. No shit!!

  134. Karen:”It was merely to illustrate that symbols can have multiple meanings to different people. ”

    And my reference to Ta-Nahisi is exactly the same, except it shows a point of view that neo confederates like you don’t much care for.

    Symbols can have different meanings. A star can mean the star of David or Christ. A circle an mean earth, or oneness… But the flag of the traitors who attacked this country to perpetuate their war on black people has some very specific meanings that do not go away just because you say you don’t believe them.

  135. Jonathan,

    I’m sorry that you don’t see a bunch of neo confederates who are trying to say that because they don’t believe the south attacked the north (in order to perpetuate their horrific practice of white supremacy, slavery, torture, kidnapping, rape and murder), then the confederate flag no longer represents those things. It most certainly does. And to suggest that it doesn’t is the height of incivility. As is being called a “Shiite liberal,” a comment that was apparently just fine by your standards.

    As for adapting, I most certainly will, but when attacked, I will respond. So, if Nick wants to get with the spirit of civility, or if Paul wants to actually address the points instead of committing one logical fallacy after another, then great. Otherwise, is it uncivil if I point out their fallacy? I’m guessing it wasn’t so much what I said, but how I said it?

    Can I say someone is Bullshitting, in the Harry Frankfurt philosophical sense of the word, when they are?

  136. “the white north attacked the South”

    Again, you ignore all the comments to you that prove you’re wrong about this and you just continue to say it as if it were true. It is not. US Military bases are US property.

    As for which side was the home of the White Supremacists who thought god gave them the right to rape, torture, kidnap, and murder, and to fight to keep doing it, that would be you know who… the people you are defending.

    “Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.”–Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens

  137. Scott wrote: “The Swastika and the Confederate flag ALWAYS represent racism and white supremacy.”

    Symbols are based upon culture. In the culture that I grew up in, these two symbols have VERY different meanings. In the South, the rednecks and country boys often have rebel flags on their trucks. It is a symbol of independence and pride for them. Nothing to do with racism or hatred. The Swastika, on the other hand, conveys Nazism, anger, and hatred toward Jews, communists and blacks. We should be careful not to assume that everybody grew up in the same culture.

  138. Nick: “Scott, Free speech is not tidy, pretty, or put in a little box w/ a bow. It is often ugly, untimely and untidy, and not constrained by unilateral boundaries.”

    Where the heck did I say it was tidy? In fact, I’ve been saying it’s untidy. I said I don’t want to ban the flag. I might want to burn it… But I’m not going to support a law that says those kids don’t have a right to wear that shirt in the proper venue. A school sporting event is not that venue. A better venue would be one in which children all get to express their views about the Civil War together, at the same time, with proper warning.

    But, hey, one of you confederate apologists wants to put on a shirt that displays your symbol of ignorance and white supremacy, fine. But this symbol represents an open rebellion against he rule of law of a country they couldn’t control democratically, so they resorted to violence. It represents a defense of torture, rape, kidnapping, and murder. It represents a people that argued that blacks were inferior and that the bible gave the white man the right to treat those blacks as property… as THINGS… So, when people like me get up in your face and challenge the assumptions on which you defend your display of such horror, don’t be surprised. Just resort to calling them Shiite liberals.

  139. Scott – when are you going to admit that slavery was active in the north during the Civil War. When are you going to admit that the US flag is just as guilty as the Confederate Stars and Bars of all the things you are accusing it off. When are you going to admit that the Emancipation Proclamation only “freed” slaves in the states in so-called rebellion. When are you going to accept that ‘whitey’ made up 100% of the federal troops at the Battle of Bull Run, which took place in Virginia (a Confederate state). Your so-called Cornerstone Speech lays out that it is “Our new government” not states in rebellion.

    US Military bases on foreign soil are leased from local governments. We lost our base in the Philippines because our lease ran out and the government of the Philippines did not renew it. Our lease on the Panama Canal ran out, too. We have some leases with the British which should run out about 2039 or so, we trade them some old destroyers for them. Guantanamo Bay Naval Base was leased in 1901 and the Cubans have been demanding it back since Castro took over. We seem to want to keep it and we have military enough to hold the Cubans off until help from the mainland arrives.

  140. davidm2575:

    “Symbols are based upon culture.”

    I’m aware of what a symbol is. They are also based on history, events, truths… They are wrapped up in the mindset of those who first displayed them as signs of their political philosophy.

    “In the culture that I grew up in, these two symbols have VERY different meanings.”

    Actually, they have different meanings that are deeply related. One cannot separate the various meanings that are woven into a symbol by sheer will. To display the confederate flag as a symbol of “independence” for example, the historical context here is “independence from what?” From a country that was slowly eating away at slavery to the point that the south could no longer fight for White Supremacy through the democratic means set down by the constitution, so they turned to violence. Or, if it’s a sign of heritage, what is that heritage? It is racism.

    “In the South, the rednecks and country boys often have rebel flags on their trucks. It is a symbol of independence and pride for them.”

    I was raised in Arkansas. I’m aware that rural white men sometimes display the racist confederate flag on their trucks. I live in upper Appalachia (upstate NY). I see them up here all the time. Racism isn’t limited to the south.

    “It is a symbol of independence and pride for them. Nothing to do with racism or hatred.”

    How do you know? Did you ask every guy with a confederate battle flag on his truck if he’s a racist? Are you aware that racists often deny being racist?

    And, again, if I say this swastika is just me showing off my white pride, does that mean that the swastika no longer carries the stigma of racism? That I can just will away what that symbol represented historically?

    “The Swastika, on the other hand, conveys Nazism, anger, and hatred toward Jews, communists and blacks.”

    Again, I have had skinheads tell me to my face that the swastika tattoo they so proudly display is only about White Pride, and not White Supremacy. Even if I believed him, and even if he really wasn’t a white supremacist, it wouldn’t change the fact that the swastika is a symbol of racism with historic connotations that cannot be willed away.

    “We should be careful not to assume that everybody grew up in the same culture.”

    People who wear confederate flags should keep that in mind when someone raised by Black Panthers objects to their racist symbol.

    If only there were some symbol from a time in history when a black race held white people in slavery, murdered them, raped their wives and children… And if only a very brave black man would dare to explain to the good people of, say, Montgomery Alabama, that when he wears that symbol in public, he doesn’t mean it in any Black Supremacist way… It’s only an outward manifestation of his independence and pride….

  141. Symbols have different meanings even within the same country. Here is an example taken in 1909 from the Chilocco Indian School Basketball team in Oklahoma. The symbol is found in Native American Cultures in many Mid-Western areas.

  142. When I was a teenager, the Southern Cross always evoked the General Lee car from the Dukes of Hazard, with the Dixie horn, and my crush on John Schneider. :)

  143. I suspect that David meant that he does not PERSONALLY know any Republican racists. It’s been said here and elsewhere that Republicans are racist. That comes as a surprise to Republicans, to hear that all Republicans are evil in some way. I was called an extremist – I said that to me the Confederate Flag represents slavery, and I wish the South would pick a new symbol, but I know it means different things to different people.

    It is a trap to respond to generalities like “all Republicans are racist.” We say, of course we’re not, and none of our friends are, either. And then someone finds a racist Republican. And then someone finds a racist Democrat. And before you know it, we’re lost in the weeds. It is challenging, at least for me, not to respond, but it doesn’t get us anywhere.

    There is no test to join any political party. A racist can register as a Republican or a Democrat.

  144. Darren Smith

    Symbols have different meanings even within the same country.
    =================
    The problem arises when whites use intellectual force to try to tell blacks what the rebel flag means to blacks.

  145. I don’t think anyone here has tried to “tell blacks what the rebel flag means to blacks.” I think it’s been universally acknowledged that the flag represents slavery to many, but has non-racist connotations to others.

  146. Paul: “when are you going to admit that slavery was active in the north during the Civil War.”

    When did I say it wasn’t? But the states of the north outlawed slavery. In fact, when Rep Bachmann said the founding fathers fought against slavery, and everyone laughed at her, I noted that she was actually right about one of the founding fathers, John Jay, who as Governor of NY outlawed slavery. Other northern states did the same. Show me the southern state that outlawed slavery.

    But, I’m curious… Are you now trying to say that the north was full of people willing to disband the United States of America in order to continue enslaving black people? Because I see a whole bunch of monuments around these parts dedicated to the people who fought to bring the south back into the union that was slowing, but surely, getting rid of slavery on the federal level, something that the White Supremacists you’re defending were willing to kill to defend.

    “When are you going to admit that the US flag is just as guilty as the Confederate Stars and Bars of all the things you are accusing it off. ”

    Never, because it’s not. The stars and stripes most certainly flew over some racist stuff, including slavery and the genocide of Native Americans.. the Spanish American war… I could go on and on… But unlike the south, the US has also self-corrected away from such awful behavior. And while I am still ashamed at our droning and export of war, I must admit that we have come a long way since the days of mass murder of natives, or slavery… we passed the reconstruction amendments. We got rid of Jim Crow. Sometimes history moves backwards and sideways, yes, but in the long run, the moral arc of the US has bent toward justice. We just have to make sure it keeps going that way.

    However, I’ve never seen anything that redeems the Confederate States of America. As Stephens said in the Cornerstone Speech, the CSA was ALL ABOUT white supremacy. For all it’s faults, that is NOT what the US is about. Not anymore. There was never a time where the CSA absolved itself of its sins.

    “Your so-called Cornerstone Speech lays out that it is “Our new government” not states in rebellion.”

    It’s not my speech, and it’s not so-called, but I’m shocked at how unfamiliar you are with it. The “new government” WAS the states in rebellion.

    “US Military bases on foreign soil are leased from local governments.”

    This may be true of some or all, but has nothing to do with whether the base, or the embassy, or whatever, is considered US property.

    But in this case, are you saying that the US government leased Ft Sumter from SC?

    “We seem to want to keep it and we have military enough to hold the Cubans off until help from the mainland arrives.”

    And if we did that, by your rules, the Cubans would be within their rights to attack it and kill US service men.

  147. People would be better off if they didn’t get so caught up in hostility about a symbol and instead concerned themselves with real injustices from acts by others.

  148. Karen: “but has non-racist connotations to others.”

    Sadly misinformed, often racist, always ignorant and provocative others.

    And, AGAIN… when a skin head tells me his swastika is only about White Pride, and not White Supremacy, what do you say? OK, then, you and your swastika take that to Israel and Whitesplain how that works?

  149. Karen S
    … There is no test to join any political party. A racist can register as a Republican or a Democrat.
    =====================
    The blacks have a nose for racism.

    There is a certain party they tend not to vote for.

    Something about a couple of centuries of experience everyone seems to know about … except … well … “that” party.

  150. Darren,

    Excellent point… If my understanding is correct…. This symbol means friendship and is reversed of the traditional swatizkas.

  151. Darren, the thing is, the display of the symbol is quite often a marker saying, hey, I’m a racist who supports unjust acts against others.

    But it’s really easy for a white guy to tell black people how they would be better off if they didn’t get upset about the display of a symbol that represents not only the worst racism, but the willingness to fight and kill to defend that racism.

    If they have the free speech right to wear that symbol, then those who find it repugnant most certainly have the right to tell them so.

  152. Karen S

    I don’t think anyone here has tried to “tell blacks what the rebel flag means to blacks.” I think it’s been universally acknowledged that the flag represents slavery to many, but has non-racist connotations to others.
    ================
    Yes, but the gravamen is who thinks it means slavery, and who wants to use intellectual force to say it does not.

    The victim must submit to the meaning given it by the victimizer is what the victimizer argues.

    Like it used to be with “legitimate rape.”

  153. Well, that was a day well wasted… Dredd, I see that many of these, um, right wing people who are attempting to defend a racist symbol with extremist points of view that have no basis in reality… rarely respond to you. I suppose I’ve stumbled into a dynamic where they see your response and know better than to try to argue with you. Maybe some hard won battles on your part combined with the tendency of people with a losing argument to eventually change the subject and move on while declaring victory… Like, oh, a premature “Mission Accomplished” banner?

  154. Dredd – the Republicans prosecuted the War of Northern Aggression. They set up the Freedman’s Bureau. They were the major votes behind the Civil Rights Act of 1964, but somehow blacks have a couple of centuries of experience with Republicans that causes them not to vote for them. Democrats controlled the South until after the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Martin Luther King was a registered Republican, for goodness sake. However, just as only Nixon could have gone to China only Johnson could have pushed through the Civil Rights Act of 1964. He finally got the final vote when he said he would expose the black mistress of one of the Democratic Senators and ruin him politically. Where is the couple of centuries of experience? The Republican Party did not exist until 1854 and was always anti-slavery. John C. Fremont was its first national candidate in 1856.

  155. The context of White Pride is typically that of the racist White Supremacist movement. It is not, for instance, pride in having Swedish heritage. So in your example, the swastika also represents racism to the skinhead wearer.

    My grandfather, a lifelong Republican, stood down a KKK mob in the street. Racism would never have been tolerated in my house. The fiscal conservative underpinnings of the Republican party is clearly not racist. “That party” has more minorities in office than Democrats have. Bush appointed the first black Secretary of State (Colin Powell) and the first female black SOS (Condoleeza Rice.) “That party” is not racist, no matter what the politicians say.

  156. Dredd – so a majority of blacks voted for the first black President. So that proves that Republicans are racist? Because “blacks have a nose for racism?”

  157. Scott – the Mission Accomplished banner was for the ship’s mission. It was put up by the commander of the ship not the Commander-in-Chief. I have responded to you as time permitted. I do have other things to do and I am on other threads that are active, so I have to monitor those as well.
    I left you a set of question to admit or deny. You do that and we can take this up tomorrow if you are too tired to stay in the lists.

  158. correction:

    In 2004 11% of blacks voted for the republican candidate for president.

    That was up from 2000.

    Since 1964 it has not been above ~15% voting for a republican president.

    With all the voter suppression laws being passed in red states, that is not likely to change.

    They know.

    The racists do not know.

    How could they.

  159. Of course there is the state flag of Mississippi. I wonder what would have happened to those students if they instead displayed this?

    And no, I don’t believe everyone in Mississippi is a racist who desires the return of the confederacy.

  160. Karen S

    Dredd – so a majority of blacks voted for the first black President. So that proves that Republicans are racist? Because “blacks have a nose for racism?”
    ===============
    They know were the racists are, what they are, why they are, and how they are.

    Call it racistdar, like gaydar, like radar.

    The pretzel logic of racists explaining what is or is not racism only draws attention to themselves and embarrasses observers.

    chart

  161. Dredd:

    If more blacks vote for Democrats, that does not prove that the entire Republican Party is racist. More whites ride horses than blacks, but that does not mean that horseback riding is a racist sport.

    Democrats have been very successful making promises to minorities, and claiming that Republicans are all evil people who hate the poor. In fact, the poor actually fare better under Republican governors, where economies tend to create a better job market. The black community hasn’t been too happy with Obama’s failure to help them.

    http://www.rga.org/homepage/gop-governors-deliver-on-jobs/

  162. Rep.Steve Stockman invited Ted Nugent to the SOTU address after Nugent called President Obama a subhuman mongrel.

  163. Scott Supak “:The idea that the flag represents southern heritage is BS.”

    You couldn’t be more wrong, Scott. But keep trying anyway.

  164. Paul, I dealt with your questions. You’re the one who refuses to acknowledge the replies to your, um…. stretching of the boundaries of reality.

    For example, I noted that by your own definition, Cuba would be within their rights to attack Guantanamo bay and kill US Servicemen.

    I don’t find it surprising at all that you simply ignore the comments that deal with your, um… wrongly educated contentions regarding history and law. The fact that you completely ignore what Dredd says to you tells me all I need to know about you.

  165. So . . . just to be clear . . . the Republicans are racist because blacks “know where the racists are.” That’s your proof? That’s the big conspiracy? And I have “pretzel logic?”

  166. Dredd – explain to me how a voter ID is voter suppression when the DOJ requires ID to get in the building, as does the WH?
    I live in a state that is constantly flooded by illegal aliens. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that some of this might register to vote and then vote. I did have a student, an illegal alien, who admitted that he have voted for President. I did believe him when he said he thought is was alright to do. I just told him it was illegal and to please not do it again. So, I personally know of one case of voter fraud in Arizona. I do not know if there is a flood of illegals registered, but we do clean our voter rolls every 10 years. Some place in Chicago during the last election, more people voted than were registered. In another state over 1500 people illegally voted and the election was decided by 300 votes. The court decided there was no way to tell who they voted for. No one wants to suppress voters but we do want to make sure those who vote are qualified to vote.

  167. Dredd: “In 2004 [11%] of blacks voted for the republican candidate for president.”

    Karen: “Dredd – so a majority of blacks voted for the first black President.”

    Reality check… Bush v Kerry?

    Karen, no one is saying ALL Republicans are racists. But the parties have switched since the 60’s. Most racists vote GOP now. The voting patterns of blacks is just one piece of evidence that confirms this.

  168. Symtoms showing up in this thread:

    Symbolic racism (modern-symbolic racism, modern racism, symbolic prejudice) is a coherent belief system that reflects an underlying unidimensional prejudice towards Black people in the United States. These beliefs include the stereotype that Blacks are morally inferior to White people, and that they violate traditional White American values such as hard-work and independence. These beliefs may cause the subject to discriminate against Black people and to justify this discrimination as a concern for justice. Some prejudiced people do not view symbolic racism as prejudice since it is not linked directly to race but indirectly through social and political issues.

    Sears and Henry characterize symbolic racism as the expression or endorsement of four specific themes or beliefs:

    Blacks no longer face much prejudice or discrimination.

    The failure of blacks to progress results from their unwillingness to work hard enough.

    Blacks are demanding too much too fast.

    Blacks have gotten more than they deserve.

    Symbolic racism is a form of modern racism, as it is more subtle and indirect than more overt forms of racism, such as those characterized in Jim Crow Laws. As symbolic racism develops through socialization and its processes occur without conscious awareness, an individual with symbolic racist beliefs may genuinely oppose racism and believe he is not racist. Symbolic racism is perhaps the most prevalent racial attitude today.

    (Wikipedia, Symbolic Racism).

  169. Finally found it Scott – as usual you have some historical problems. Most of the border states (part of the Union) continued to have slavery all through the War of Northern Aggression.
    Guantanamo Bay Naval Base issue is a odd legal problem, but the United States takes the stand that the lease is good regardless of the current government in charge of Cuba. As such an attack on the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base would be an act of war.
    Fort Sumter was not leased. It supposedly was US Govt property which ended when SC seceded from the Union. Everything within the boundary of the state became South Carolina’s. The soldiers remaining there became an invading force. Had they packed up and left Fort Sumter would not have been shelled.
    The reply is so far upstream I cannot answer all of it. However, the Stars and Stripes is just as guilty of racism, etc. as the Stars and Bars.

  170. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – explain to me how a voter ID is voter suppression when the DOJ requires ID to get in the building, as does the WH?

    =====================
    Voting ID laws are regularly and systematically held unconstitutional charades designed to suppress the voting rights of non-white and white non-republican voters.

    No one has sued the DOJ or WH for requiring ID before entering, because they are not polling places.

  171. Dredd – like many sociological diatribes, I find little of worth in your article on symbolic racism, unless you are calling one or more of us racists.

  172. Paul: “as usual you have some historical problems”

    How can something be usual when it hasn’t happened once?

    “Most of the border states (part of the Union) continued to have slavery all through the War of Northern Aggression.”

    List them, Paul. All of them. Now divide by the states that didn’t have slavery. Now tell me, which state was 100% for slavery? Which states didn’t want to fight over it? Which states were very much against it?

    Then tell me about the war of White Supremacist Traitors Aggression.

    “Guantanamo Bay Naval Base issue is a odd legal problem, but the United States takes the stand that the lease is good regardless of the current government in charge of Cuba.”

    Was Sumter leased from SC? If so, if the US takes the stand that the lease was good regardless of what the current government in charge of SC said…

    “As such an attack on the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base would be an act of war.”

    So, then, SC’s attack on Sumter was an act of war.

    Your idea that secession ended the lease is no more valide to the US than the idea that the Cubans ended the lease. As Dredd pointed out, legally, there is no secession.

    “The reply is so far upstream I cannot answer all of it.”

    Well, this is a much different thing than your assertion that I did not reply, now isn’t it?

  173. Scott – “No one is saying ALL Republicans are racist.” Dred: “The blacks have a nose for racism. There is a certain party they tend not to vote for. Something about a couple of centuries of experience everyone seems to know about … except … well … “that” party.”

    So it has been claimed that the entire Republican Party is racist.

    Scot: “Most racists vote GOP now.” Please provide proof.

    One can argue that some within the Democratic Party still use voter suppression. Note the racial epithets hurled at black conservatives, such as “Uncle Tom” and “Step-n-Fetchit”, which creates intense pressure on blacks to vote for “approved” candidates and measures.

    http://russp.us/racism.htm

  174. As I mentioned above, the ID laws (addressing a non-existent problem) are just the tip of the iceberg. The real tricks are down at ground level. Minority areas have fewer polling places, fewer machines, longer lines… It goes on and on. Blue states expand the franchise for everyone, red states restrict it for targeted communities.

    And I can’t resist mentioning to Paul that anyone who knows anything even close to the truth about the Civil War knows damn well that had the shooting not started at Sumter, it would have started somewhere else. The racist traitors wanted a war, and they got one.

    And as Ta-Nehisi says, that war was really just one battle in a centuries long war against brown people. It’s not as bad as it was, there’s a lot less strange fruit hanging around, but when the “heritage” you’re celebrating is the treasonous rants of racist warmongers, maybe you should think twice about the way you celebrate it.

  175. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – like many sociological diatribes, I find little of worth in your article on symbolic racism, unless you are calling one or more of us racists.
    ===============
    It is a social diatribe if it explains subconscious, cultural behavior which many individuals are not aware of about themselves?

    It is not my article, it is a compilation of common knowledge in the educational realms that deal with the subject.

    You can take it or leave it, but you can’t defy the reality it documents.

  176. “Are Republicans stingy but principled while Democrats are generous but racist?

    “I wouldn’t put it quite so starkly,” said Stanford University professor Shanto Iyengar. He would prefer to call Democrats “less principled” rather than bigoted … , the study found that people were less likely to give extended aid to black Hurricane Katrina victims than to white ones. The race penalty, on average, totaled about $1,000 per black victim. … for Democrats, race mattered — and in a disturbing way. Overall, Democrats were willing to give whites about $1,500 more than they chose to give to a black or other minority. (Even with this race penalty, Democrats still were willing to give more to blacks than those principled Republicans.) “Republicans are likely to be more stringent, both in terms of money and time, Iyengar said. “However, their position is ‘principled’ in the sense that it stems from a strong belief in individualism (as opposed to handouts).” Fiscal conservatism is part of the Republican Party platform – but they are equally conservative with everyone.

  177. “Republican are also less affected in their voting patterns, says Ebonya Washington of Yale University in a forthcoming article in the Quarterly Journal of Economics.

    In fact, white Republicans nationally are 25 percentage points more likely on average to vote for the Democratic senatorial candidate when the GOP hopeful is black …

    In House races, white Democrats are 38 percentage points less likely to vote Democratic if their candidate is black.”

    Data carries the most weight with me.

  178. Paul Schulte,

    The Supreme Court ruled:

    States retain the flexibility to design and use their own registration forms, but the Federal Form provides a backstop: No matter what procedural hurdles a State’s own form imposes, the Federal Form guarantees that a simple means of registering to vote in federal elections will be available. Arizona’s reading would permit a State to demand of Federal Form applicants every additional piece of information the State requires on its state-specific form. If that is so, the Federal Form ceases to perform any meaningful function, and would be a feeble means of “increas[ing] the number of eligible citizens who register to vote in elections for Federal office.”

    (Arizona v. Inter Tribal Council, June 2013). They struck down that Arizona Voter Id law.

  179. Karen,

    I followed the National Review link to the Washington Post story about that UCLA. That was some in-depth study!

    Few signs at tea party rally expressed racially charged anti-Obama themes
    By Amy Gardner
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Thursday, October 14, 2010
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/13/AR2010101303634.html

    Excerpt:
    A new analysis of political signs displayed at a tea party rally in Washington last month reveals that the vast majority of activists expressed narrow concerns about the government’s economic and spending policies and steered clear of the racially charged anti-Obama messages that have helped define some media coverage of such events.

    Emily Ekins, a graduate student at UCLA, conducted the survey at the 9/12 Taxpayer March on Washington last month by scouring the crowd, row by row and hour by hour, and taking a picture of every sign she passed.

    Ekins photographed about 250 signs, and more than half of those she saw reflected a “limited government ethos,” she found – touching on such topics as the role of government, liberty, taxes, spending, deficit and concern about socialism. Examples ranged from the simple message “$top the $pending” scrawled in black-marker block letters to more elaborate drawings of bar charts, stop signs and one poster with the slogan “Socialism is Legal Theft” and a stick-figure socialist pointing a gun at the head of a taxpayer.

    There were uglier messages, too – including “Obama Bin Lyin’ – Impeach Now” and “Somewhere in Kenya a Village is Missing its Idiot.” But Ekins’s analysis showed that only about a quarter of all signs reflected direct anger with Obama. Only 5 percent of the total mentioned the president’s race or religion, and slightly more than 1 percent questioned his American citizenship…

    Ekins spent the summer researching the tea party movement and also as an intern at the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank in Washington. The survey was for her UCLA graduate studies…

    Adam Brandon, a spokesman for FreedomWorks, said his organization did not instruct protesters to limit their messages to fiscal slogans, but he did patrol the crowd and threw out a few protesters carrying signs depicting Obama as Adolf Hitler.

  180. Scott: “As I mentioned above, the ID laws (addressing a non-existent problem) are just the tip of the iceberg. The real tricks are down at ground level. Minority areas have fewer polling places, fewer machines, longer lines… ”

    Proof that voter fraud does not exist and will never be a problem?

    I absolutely support helping people get IDs, and ensuring there are plenty of polling places. But getting rid of voter ID seems like inviting fraud, and yet I rarely hear about polling shortages in the media . . . it’s all about how racist it is to ask for ID.

  181. Karen:

    “So it has been claimed that the entire Republican Party is racist.”

    Wrong again. No one claimed that every republican, or even every republican politician, is racist. However, you have a great many Republican politicians who say racist things all the time. Just because they say, hey, I’m not a racist doesn’t mean they don’t do and say racist things. You don’t have to be conscious of your disease to have it.

    “please provide proof”

    Um, the last 50 years of American history? The Southern Strategy? The fact that Ronald Reagan started his campaign for President in Philadelphia, Mississippi talking about “states rights.” How about Boehner rejecting, for the first time ever, the official request of the President to speak before a joint session of congress? Maybe all the birther stuff? Food stamp President? Pictures of the President emailed by Republican operatives in a long list of places all over the country? Sarah Palin saying Obama’s explanations of BENGHAZI! were a “shuck and jive schtick.” Shall I go on? OK, how about this:

    “You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger” — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now [that] you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I’m not saying that. But I’m saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.””-Lee Atwater

    “creates intense pressure on blacks to vote for “approved” candidates and measures”

    Interesting… Are you aware of some of the things said about blacks by some Republicans? You go and find black people who get very upset by what they perceive as members of their own race selling them out, and you want to complain that this practicing of free speech “creates intense pressure on blacks to vote for “approved” candidates and measures”?

    Mind if I translate that? Black people get mad at other black people and call them names, and that causes some kind of sociological phenomenon that follows people into voting booths where no one knows for whom they’re voting and FORCES them to vote for someone?

    OK, then. Please continue…

  182. Elaine – Andrew Brietbart put up a big chunk of change if anyone could prove racism at a Tea Party event. No one ever collected, or came forward to collect. At best your graduate student could only find signs that were racially-tinged. But no racism. How odd.

  183. Study on the low-quality of polling places in low-income neighborhoods (low-quality was defined as having difficulties such as street #s hard to find or lack of adequate parking): http://faculty.washington.edu/mbarreto/papers/precinct_quality.pdf

    This makes sense to me, as any polling place in a city will struggle with parking, well-marked street #s, and ease of finding the polling place. By definition, the polling place needs to be in the neighborhood of the people it serves. If there are problems in the neighborhood, such as traffic and lack of parking, then the polling places will experience those problems, too.

    Make the argument about improving polling places, and I will support it. But claiming it’s racist to have to prove who you are seems like a spurious argument.

  184. Scott – Please re-read Dredd’s posts about “that party” which refers to a “party” – not individuals, not a sub faction in a part. There was no qualifier.

  185. Scott: “However, you have a great many Republican politicians who say racist things all the time.” What percentage of Republican politicians have said racist things all the time? What percentage of Democrats have? Please provide proof.

    Calling black people racist slurs is a bit worse than just “calling them names.” Racist slurs should never be tolerated. There is no reason on this Earth to call a black person a racial slur.

  186. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – that is voter registration not voter ID. Two different cases.

    ================
    The issue was whether a voter must show proof of citizenship as required by the Arizona law, but not by federal law.

    The Arizona law requiring proof beyond the federal ID requirements was struck down.

    You have trouble with reading comprehension.

    So, I ask again, where is your link to a case?

  187. States currently are allowed to self govern to a certain degree. For instance, the minimum wage is different from states to states. This is known as states rights, and any politician in office understands the dichotomy between state and federal rights. It sounds like you’re going with a “code word” theory that anyone who claims they want states to set minimum wage (such as setting a higher wage in a higher cost of living state) using states rights is really racist.

    I recently heard that the term “Obamacare” is racist.

  188. There are precious few African Americans that will buy the Republican meme that the Democrats are racists, not Republicans. Blacks and other minorities will continue to vote with the idea that they will be voting in their own best interests, which is a rational thing to do.

  189. Inge Marler, Arkansas Tea Party Leader, Makes Racist Joke At Event
    The Huffington Post
    By John Celock
    Posted: 06/14/2012
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html

    Excerpt:
    Tea Party leaders in Arkansas are on the defensive after a board member of a Tea Party group in the Ozarks made a racist joke at a rally over the weekend drawing laughs from the audience.

    The Baxter Bulletin in north-central Arkansas reported that Inge Marler made the comments at the annual rally of the Ozark Tea Party. The remarks, which suggested that African-Americans are on welfare, were condemned by Tea Party leaders in the state. The Bulletin reported that the condemnation came after they contacted the Tea Party for comment.

    The Bulletin reports that Marler, who told the newspaper she would stop using the joke, said the following as an ice-breaker in her speech:

    “A black kid asks his mom, ‘Mama, what’s a democracy?’

    “‘Well, son, that be when white folks work every day so us po’ folks can get all our benefits.’

    “‘But mama, don’t the white folk get mad about that?’

    “‘They sho do, son. They sho do. And that’s called racism.’”

  190. Karen S

    Scott – Please re-read Dredd’s posts about “that party” which refers to a “party” – not individuals, not a sub faction in a part. There was no qualifier.
    =================
    That is correct.

    That party, the republican party, can’t convince blacks, hispanics, or women to vote for them.

    The reasons are hidden to those who don’t get it.

  191. Yes absolutism is truly awful, especially regarding women’s reproductive rights. Giving personhood to a zygote is absolutely nuts.

  192. We have learned a lot about Scott today and just how pernicious PC is. In his mind we are haters, and he is righteous. That ain’t gonna change.

  193. I’ve heard many times that if you disagree with Obama, you’re racist. Think you’re taxes are too high and that they are squandered? Racist! Don’t like Obamacare? You hate the poor AND you’re racist! Think it’s wrong that Obama lied that we could keep our doctors and insurance? Racist! Think Obama mishandled The Crimea? Racist! Don’t like IRS targeting conservatives? Racist!

    The term has been used so cavalierly that it’s losing its meaning.

    And doing so demeans the real racist crimes that still occur at times today.

    The US needs to foster more critical thinking. People need to question what they are told more often.

  194. Remember those pitiful hijackers taking planes to Cuba back in the 60’s. Well, there was just another pitiful attempt to hijack this thread.

  195. Annie – I would posit blacks are voting with their stomach and not with their head. Unemployment among blacks is very high and teen blacks has hit a new high. This is not in their best interest. All of this is under Obama. However, the Democrats are willing to enslave them with welfare and unemployment, so sure, why not vote for them.

  196. KarenS, You obviously did not get the memo. Republicans are lazy, stupid, racists. Democrats are hard working, smart, and love all people of color. Oh, and they care while Republicans are heartless. Their sanctimony knows no limits, and they know nothing of history.

  197. Here is a quote from a Republican who was racist. Ergo the entire party, with millions of people, is racist.

    Whatever happened to the days when people of all different political parties were friends who had the same goals, but just differed on how to get there? What has happened to critical thinking and debate? There is such unbelievable hatred in politics, personal attacks are the norm now, and demonizing an opponent has reached all-time lows. We see it every day in the news. We’re getting more and more desensitized to it.

    It’s divisive, and it’s wrong.

  198. KarenS, Both parties demonize the other side, Dems are just better @ it because they are ruthless. But, I hear Republicans stereotyping Dems. Now, some fit the stereotype ala Scott. But, not all are like him. I think he is mostly looking to get hits on his website. And, it looks like some are taking the bait. Red meat sells, even for the vegans!

  199. Nick – That’s true.

    I don’t hate any entire political party. We’ve got the whole spectrum in my family. I disagree with some family members on what approach has the best outcome, but I love and respect them all the same.

  200. Karen – love the sinner, hate the sin :) My brother refused to shake hands with JFK, does that make him anti-Catholic?

  201. Karen, I grew up in a blue collar Dem family. But my parents and Jesuits taught me to make up my own mind. That’s why I could never be a member of any party. I have different thoughts and beliefs that do not conform to either the 2 choices we currently have. If I find a person w/ integrity I vote for them. That’s why Feingold always got my vote. I certainly did not abide all of his positions, but I trusted him.

  202. The suspension was an inexcusably immature reaction to an admittedly immature display. The fact that this is a Franciscan school grants it legal protection, but the decision was foolish.

    It is likely that the students brought the flag because they knew that it would attract attention. It is also likely that they do not understand the social and political significance of the Confederate flag to either African-Americans or southern traditionalists. And once again, an educational opportunity was promptly buried under a cloak of pure censorship posing as cultural sensitivity.

    An honest commitment to both freedom of speech and pluralism makes two demands on society. The first is recognition that no views are subject to censorship. The second is that no views are entitled to preferential protection.

  203. Mike, God bless your intellect and integrity. Thanks for your consistently superb comments. “We’re not worthy, we’re not worthy.” Wayne and Garth

  204. Mike Appleton

    The suspension was an inexcusably immature reaction to an admittedly immature display. The fact that this is a Franciscan school grants it legal protection, but the decision was foolish.

    It is likely that the students brought the flag because they knew that it would attract attention. It is also likely that they do not understand the social and political significance of the Confederate flag to either African-Americans or southern traditionalists. And once again, an educational opportunity was promptly buried under a cloak of pure censorship posing as cultural sensitivity.

    An honest commitment to both freedom of speech and pluralism makes two demands on society. The first is recognition that no views are subject to censorship. The second is that no views are entitled to preferential protection.
    =====================
    These kids are already educated with symbolic racism.

    What they need is to be uneducated of that.

    The same techniques that educated them can’t be used to uneducate them.

    My guess is that they need some shrink time.

  205. Scott wrote: “If only there were some symbol from a time in history when a black race held white people in slavery, murdered them, raped their wives and children… And if only a very brave black man would dare to explain to the good people of, say, Montgomery Alabama, that when he wears that symbol in public, he doesn’t mean it in any Black Supremacist way… It’s only an outward manifestation of his independence and pride…”

    I think you have an exaggerated viewpoint. Most slave owners were not out to enslave every black, nor to murder and rape women and children. Thomas Jefferson would be one such example of a slave owner who worked to stop the importation of new slaves as soon as it was Constitutional. He hoped for a time when slavery could be brought to an end, but he did not free his own slaves until his death.

    Your desire to find blacks who used symbols for their independence or supremacy makes me think of the Black Panthers. One of their symbols was a raised black fist. Would you be fighting for the suspension of some black students who came to an after-school event with a poster of a raised black fist looking something like this:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Fist.svg

    I would have the same sentiments toward the school if they suspended someone like a Malcolm X brandishing a raised black fist symbol.

  206. Here is an interesting scientific paper on Self-Deception:

    Our evolutionary hypothesis about the role of self-deception in service of interpersonal deception hinges primarily on the argument laid out earlier – that despite what the research literature might appear to show, people are actually quite good at detecting deception.

    (page 4). I don’t agree with all of the hypothesis, but it does have some challenging perspectives.

    Deception is an activity that even microbes take part in (On The Origin of Propaganda) and is probably, like symbolic racism, a result of damage inflicted during mass disturbances and mass extinctions.

  207. Scott wrote: “As Stephens said in the Cornerstone Speech, the CSA was ALL ABOUT white supremacy.”

    You seem to ignore the bulk of the CSA. Most of the speech was not about white supremacy. It involved things like limiting the Presidential term to six years and allowing cabinet positions to participate in the House and Senate debates. You also ignore that his racist remarks did not encapsulate the sentiments of all Southerners. How many other speeches can you find that expresses such racism? Slavery had created a difficult quandary because the economics of the Plantation relied upon slave labor, and the slaves themselves in many situations had become dependent upon the slave owner. Many slaves who were set free chose to remain with their masters on the plantation and continue to work. Many others were not comfortable with leaving. They were like children who never want to leave their parents. Obviously much of this had to do with how benevolent the slave master was. You speak as if all slave owners were nasty, selfish, and cruel murderers and rapists. That simply was not the case.

  208. Dredd wrote: “The blacks have a nose for racism. There is a certain party they tend not to vote for.”

    You think they see this on their own? I say it is because of propaganda and indoctrination by the public school system and constant political barrage from the Democratic party. Democrats have a penchant to speak evil of Republicans at every opportunity. They are mad at Republicans for fighting for the black man’s equality. So they have embraced the ideology themselves that Republicans successfully fought for, and now they falsely repeat the lie that Republicans are the enemy of blacks. Because Republicans know the values of self reliance and how to make money and become wealthy, the Democrats mix in their message a story about economics. They appeal to the jealousy and envy of black people, telling them that Republicans have unjustly acquired their wealth on the sweat of their backs. The false message has worked. To now claim that blacks are so smart that they have discerned racism for themselves in Republicans is fallacious. Educated people know better. They know that Republicans delivered this country from slavery and successfully beat back the Jim Crow laws and ushered in the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

  209. Scott wrote: “If they have the free speech right to wear that symbol, then those who find it repugnant most certainly have the right to tell them so.”

    I absolutely agree with your statement here. Persuading students not to embrace the flag is fair play. What I object to is censorship by authorities and banning students from an educational institution because of an objection to their alleged message. We have laws against wrongful terminations from employment, and now it seems like we need laws against wrongful suspensions of students. I hate to think it has come to this, but obviously discussion about the issue is problematic.

  210. How one applies self-deception concepts to a blog thread has been shown in lab experiments:

    Similar sorts of biased information search can be seen in laboratory studies. Perhaps the clearest examples can be found in research by Ditto and colleagues (e.g., Ditto & Lopez 1992; Ditto et al. 2003), in which people are confronted with the possibility that they might have a proclivity for a pancreatic disorder. In these studies people expose a test strip to their saliva and are then led to believe that color change is an indicator of either a positive or negative health prognosis. Ditto and Lopez (1992) found that when people are led to believe that color change is a good thing, they wait more than 60% longer for the test strip to change color than when they believe color change is a bad thing. Studies such as these suggest that information search can be biased in the amount of information gathered even when people are unsure what they will encounter next (see also Josephs et al. 1992). Thus, it appears that people sometimes do not tell themselves the whole truth if a partial truth appears likely to be preferable.

    (ibid, my comment just above david2575’s). Like the people who do not want to wait to find out “bad truth,” bloggers will dismiss another’s comment or post without waiting to read it all.

  211. davidm2575

    Dredd wrote: “The blacks have a nose for racism. There is a certain party they tend not to vote for.”

    You think they see this on their own? I say it is because of propaganda and indoctrination by the public school system and constant political barrage from the Democratic party. Democrats have a penchant to speak evil of Republicans at every opportunity. They are mad at Republicans for fighting for the black man’s equality. So they have embraced the ideology themselves that Republicans successfully fought for, and now they falsely repeat the lie that Republicans are the enemy of blacks. Because Republicans know the values of self reliance and how to make money and become wealthy, the Democrats mix in their message a story about economics. They appeal to the jealousy and envy of black people, telling them that Republicans have unjustly acquired their wealth on the sweat of their backs. The false message has worked. To now claim that blacks are so smart that they have discerned racism for themselves in Republicans is fallacious. Educated people know better. They know that Republicans delivered this country from slavery and successfully beat back the Jim Crow laws and ushered in the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
    ===========================
    That is classic self-deception as a result of symbolic racism in your culture which you embrace.

    The blacks, hispanics, and women know exactly where the republican party officialdom is coming from, and they soundly reject it.

  212. How lab experiments reflect on internet searches:

    Information search can also be biased in the type of information gathered. Although one never knows for sure what lies around the next corner, some corners are more likely to yield welcome information than others. Thus, politically liberal people might choose the New York Times as their information source, whereas politically conservative individuals might choose Fox News (Frey 1986). In such a manner, people can be relatively confident that the brunt of the information they gather will be consistent with their worldview, even if they do not know what tomorrow’s headlines will bring.

    Laboratory studies have examined this sort of biased information search, in part by assessing the conditions under which people are interested in learning negative information about themselves. One conclusion from this research is that the better people feel about themselves, the more willing they are to face criticism.

    (ibid, link to paper in my comment above). Exit polls in the last presidential election show that Obama won the female vote (55%), Romney won the male vote (52%); Romney won the white vote (59%), Obama won the Black (93%), Hispanic (71%), and Asian (73%) vote. In the age categories Obama won the 18-29 (60%), 30-44 (52%), while Romney won the 45-64 (51%) and 65+ (56%).

    Additional statistics at that site can be viewed here.

    The tea-leaves in those statistics indicate which way the wind is blowing.

    Republicans know it, so they are doing unfair or unAmerican things like voter suppression and gerrymandering on a massive scale.

  213. Scott wrote: “Most racists vote GOP now. The voting patterns of blacks is just one piece of evidence that confirms this.”

    It really depends upon how you interpret the voting pattern. I would say that most blacks are voting by their own racist predilections. I have never heard so many people openly admit to voting for President Obama because he was black. That is a racist vote.

    What real evidence do you have that racists vote GOP? From my perspective, racists vote Democrat and always have. I know someone who named his child “A’ryan.” He’s a Democrat. Most members of the KKK have been Democrats. The KKK was formed to terrorize blacks and white Republicans.

  214. This thread illustrates the reality that some bloggers are complicit in inciting violence by their blogging:

    People charged with the murders of almost 100 people can be linked to a single far-right website, according to a new report from the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC).

    The White Nationalist web forum Stormfront.org says it promotes values of “the embattled white minority,” and its users include Anders Behring Breivik, who killed 77 people in a 2011 massacre in Norway, and Wade Michael Page, who shot and killed six people at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin in 2012.

    After a two-year investigation, the SPLC said (pdf) that since Stormfront became one of the first hate sites on the internet in 1995, its registered users have been disproportionately responsible for major killings. The report was released a month early after white supremacist Frazier Glenn Miller, also known as Frazier Glenn Cross, was accused of killing three people at a Jewish center in Kansas City on Sunday.

    “We know that the people who are going to commit the kinds of crimes, like the kinds of crimes Miller committed last weekend, this is where they live,” said Heidi Beirich, report author and a director at the SPLC’s Intelligence Project. The report, released on Thursday, calls Stormfront the “largest hate site in the world” and “a magnet and breeding ground for the deadly and deranged.”

    Of the site’s more than 286,000 users, only a small sliver are highly active, the report found, with fewer than 1,800 people logging in each day. While the SPLC only identified 10 murderers out of this large user base, researchers think the murderers’ connection to the site is important because it shows how the website offers a community for people who commit these crimes.

    (Guardian). Got blood on your hands?

    Racists suck.

  215. Annie wrote: “Blacks and other minorities will continue to vote with the idea that they will be voting in their own best interests, which is a rational thing to do.”

    Actually, it is the irrational thing to do. Blacks and other minorities do better under Republican policies. The reason they vote toward Democrats is because of the lies weaved by Democrats, that they are the party that most helps the poor. It is the Nanny Government message of Democrats that attracts blacks, and that is not a rational decision. It is a decision based upon their desire to be dependent upon government or assistance programs rather than self sufficient. Right or wrong, Republicans have believed in the ability of blacks to be self sufficient and to stand equally, shoulder to shoulder, with whites. Their voting tendency toward Democrats is actually an indication that perhaps Republicans have been wrong about their ability to be self sufficient. But we are not giving up yet. There is time for them to wake up, especially with black leaders like Ben Carson and Alan Keyes.

  216. davidm2575

    Annie wrote: “Blacks and other minorities will continue to vote with the idea that they will be voting in their own best interests, which is a rational thing to do.”

    Actually, it is the irrational thing to do. Blacks and other minorities do better under Republican policies.

    ===================
    That is classic self-deception as a result of symbolic racism in your culture which you are molded by.

    The blacks, hispanics, and women know exactly where the republican party officialdom is coming from, and they soundly reject it.

    Ayn Rand, Patron Saint of the Plutocracy

  217. David,

    And you really believe this? Please provide support that blacks are better off under the GOP policy’s…..

  218. Confederate flag, blackface photo get students expelled from Long Island Catholic school
    By John Mariani
    April 16, 2014
    http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/04/confederate_flag_blackface_photo_get_students_expelled_from_long_island_catholic_school.html

    Excerpt:
    Four Long Island teenagers have been expelled from their Catholic high school, two for wearing a Confederate flag at a sporting event and two for posting a photo of themselves in blackface on a social media site.

    The incidents took place last week and involved students at St. Anthony’s High School in the Suffolk County hamlet of South Huntington, The Associated Press reported. The students’ identifies weren’t available.

    St. Anthony’s principal, Brother Gary Cregan, said Wednesday he expelled two seniors who walked into an after-hours European handball match at the school with the Confederate flag draped over their shoulders. Cregan earlier had suspended them for 10 days.

    The game was between two teams from the school, one composed mainly of white students, the other mainly of black students, WABC said.

    “Everybody was kind of like, are you serious, did this actually just happen. The gym teachers took precautions. It was unbelievable how quickly they made sure the flag was away,” Aleksei Korobow told WABC.

  219. I played football for a Catholic high school in Ct. We would play Weaver High in Hartford, an all black hs.. We would be called every epithet from the players and coaches. In one game, early in the season, it was in the 80’s. This was the 1960’s and water was a water bucket and ladle. Some little black kids were spitting in our water bucket near our bench so we couldn’t drink. We were under direct orders to not say anything but just play the game and beat them, which we did. I am not scarred by this. I like black folk, in some respects more than white folk. The world is nasty. Competition can be nasty. We shook hands w/ the Weaver team. Some wouldn’t shake hands. Some did grudgingly. Some did w/ respect in their eyes. They threw everything @ us and we beat them w/ class. White privilege I guess!!

  220. AY wrote: “… you really believe this? Please provide support that blacks are better off under the GOP policy’s…”

    Yes, I do believe it. It is the message and example of Booker T. Washington. Here’s a video where a Louisiana Senator explains it:

    Elbert Guillory: “Why I Am a Republican”

  221. Now that is funny David….. Almost as funny as Clarence Thomas saying we need finality in criminal convictions….. Even where evidence tends to exonerate the defendant……

  222. Dr. Carson may be able to change the paradigm that being a Republican makes a black person an Uncle Tom. We just celebrated the 50th anniversary of Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier. It was Jackie who warned his brothers and sisters to not be beholden to one party. Jackie was a wise and smart man. He could read white folk like a book. He met w/ JFK and saw he was just a limo liberal who cared little about black people and a lot about power. The epithets hurled @ black people who have the temerity to think for themselves is disgraceful. When it comes from white people it is racism pure and simple. A word I use sparingly.

  223. AY, just consider how the black family has declined since the mid-1960’s. The social programs of the federal government has resulted in 72% of black families having single mom’s. Such a condition is correlated with higher crime among children in such households and a much higher percentage of blacks being incarcerated.

    In contrast, the Republican policies on welfare would reverse this trend and bring it back to what it was before the great welfare state took a foothold in this country. It would lead to blacks having more job opportunities and being able to lift their families out of poverty.

  224. I am just amazed….. Whose policy’s do you think have resulted in the increased incarceration of blacks….. Who has been in control….. Who was in control when crack cocaine possssion became greater than just cocaine for whites…..

    Whose policy’s affectively shipped jobs overseas…. Atta boy…. I’m not buying……

  225. AY, it is not completely partisan. For example, Democrat Daniel Moynihan saw it coming from a long way off, but the Democrats mocked Moynihan just like you are mocking me now. There is no doubt that the Democrat Nanny State policies are what has hurt the African American community and has led to the increased incarceration rate of blacks. The community is led to believe that government owes them housing, food, medical care, transportation, basically, government is expected to pay all their expenses in life. In contrast, the Republican message is one of self reliance where they have the opportunity to work hard and get ahead, supporting themselves. The Republican message is one of the value of family and two parent homes.

    As for jobs being shipped overseas, that is a good thing for Americans. The jobs are shipped overseas because there are no minimum wage laws over there. Such allows for low skilled workers to produce products that come back to us which are much more affordable. It would be even better if we got rid of the minimum wage here which has also greatly hurt the black community which has more unskilled laborers. Minimum wage is a huge job killer for the black community, contributing to their higher unemployment rate. But if we can’t get rid of the minimum wage laws, the next best thing is shipping the work to be done overseas so that people here can receive higher paying jobs and afford products that are built using cheap labor. China’s economy is booming because they don’t have the wage control laws that we have. In contrast, we are in a state of decline because of the Democrat policies.

  226. David, As we know, the most racist and draconian law that incarcerated hundreds of thousands of black men and women were the Federal crack cocaine laws. It was initiated and pushed through Congress by the Dem Speaker of the House, Tip O’Neil. Facts matter.

  227. David,

    Is that a reason that the Chinese economy is in dispare now….. An unexpected middle class because of the jobs…..

  228. And who was president when that law was passed….. War on Drugs Regean…. Just say No Nancy….. Facts do matter and race baiting is not necessary to get this message across…..

  229. AY – the Chinese economy is chugging along according to most reports. There is some slowing since they are not building government buildings at the same pace, but other things are still being built. I have an architect friend who works in China and he says business has actually increased under the new regime. Just a different type of project. They are now designing entire universities and huge shopping malls.

  230. Dredd – I think ‘symbolic racism’ is an artificial construct invented by liberals to make themselves feel better about themselves. Your bandying it about just makes my case.

  231. Ah ha, Scott! My Shiite librul buddy is back. I knew you wouldn’t leave us so easily. Keep commenting, it will annoy certain people and enhance the conversation. It’s all good. :razz:

  232. Anon, anon, anon….. Surely you mistake civility nick….. For a pot stirrer….. Pot….. Something….

  233. Scott,

    I find that there is often a story behind the story. It looks as if the school is trying to keep its students from participating in stunts/incidents that some might consider to be racially insensitive–or that might stir up the pot and cause some serious trouble. I think that the two students who draped themselves in the Confederate flag were probably hoping to cause a problem. The fact that there were two other students who posted a picture of themselves in black face along with racist comments on the Internet tells me that there may be something simmering under the surface at that Catholic school.

  234. Nick Spinelli:

    “Where’s the white knight, Scott? As I suspected, he was just a drive-by hater looking for hits. But, he was a short-lived hero for some of his ilk here.”
    ————

    And the above comment is civil? Really?

  235. Elaine,
    I think you are correct that the school knows there is a problem. I do not usually agree with any censorship, but bringing a confederate flag to an athletic event against a mostly African American student body, is an accident looking for a place to happen. Should they be allowed to keep the flag? Yes, but maybe they should pay for the added security protecting them from those who agree that it is a racist symbol.

  236. davidm2575 up there with the same old GOP talking points about nanny states and Democrats wanting welfare and not work, and BLAH BLAH BLAH. I won’t call it what it is, because my comment will just be deleted, while his comment, as wrong and insulting and derogatory as it is toward liberals, will stay.

    So, let’s put it this way… Progressives, like the Congressional Progressive Caucus, want to put people to work. Read the Better Off Budget. It invests in education and infrastructure. It rewards work by expanding the EITC (A favorite or Ronald Reagan). Progressives want to raise the minimum wage to encourage work. A strong safety net is necc, especially as a counter cyclical weight to recessions like the Little Bush Depression, but Democrats don’t support a Nanny State any more than Republicans support a low dollar policy.

    That’s right. The high dollar policy supported by elites in both parties is the reason imports are so cheap. This policy, which thanks to China not manipulating their currency any more is getting better, is responsible for imports being so cheap. The policy helps Walmart stock holders, but hurts manufacturers. Further, countries with low labor costs often have poor infrastructure. The high transportation and other costs associated with this poor infrastructure in third world countries has high costs that are much lower in the US. If our currency weren’t kept artificially high, many companies would, as they have begun to, return to this country to manufacture goods. Improving our infrastructure would only help this phenomenon.

    And this: “Minimum wage is a huge job killer for the black community, contributing to their higher unemployment rate.”

    So wrong for so long… All kinds of research, as if you cared about facts, shows that a higher minimum wage has a very minimal impact on unemployment. The State of Washington has had the highest minimum wage for years now, and they have FASTER job growth than the rest of the country…

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-05/washington-shows-highest-minimum-wage-state-beats-u-s-with-jobs.html

    “the state’s minimum wage climbed to $9.32 — the highest in the country. Meanwhile job growth continued at an average 0.8 percent annual pace, 0.3 percentage point above the national rate. Payrolls at Washington’s restaurants and bars, portrayed as particularly vulnerable to higher wage costs, expanded by 21 percent. Poverty has trailed the U.S. level for at least seven years.”

  237. Supak – a history of cannabis according to wikipedia. You will notice the start date of laws against its use pre-date the United States of Mexico.

    The legal history of cannabis in the United States relates to the regulation of marijuana use for medical or recreational purposes in the United States. Regulations and restrictions on the sale of Cannabis sativa as a drug began as early as 1619. Increased restrictions and labeling of cannabis as a poison began in many states from 1906 onward, and outright prohibitions began in the 1920s. By the mid-1930s Cannabis was regulated as a drug in every state, including 35 states that adopted the Uniform State Narcotic Drug Act.[1]

    In the 1970s, many places in the United States started to abolish state laws and other local regulations that banned possession or sale of cannabis. The same thing happened with cannabis sold as medical cannabis in the 1990s. All this is in conflict with federal laws; cannabis is a Schedule I drug according to the Controlled Substances Act of 1970, which classified cannabis as having high potential for abuse, no medical use, and not safe to use without medical supervision. Multiple efforts to reschedule cannabis under the Act have failed, and the United States Supreme Court has ruled in United States v. Oakland Cannabis Buyers’ Cooperative and Gonzales v. Raich that the federal government has a right to regulate and criminalize cannabis, even for medical purposes

  238. Deletion notice: Scott Supak, I have once again had to delete comments by you. This are not close questions but uncivil and name-calling posts. If there is a comment that you believe violates the civility rule, feel free to contact me. However, I ask you again to comply with our civility or move on to another site. You have stated before that you do not agree with the civility rule. I understand. However, you continue to engage in personal attacks directed at particular posters. Your cooperation would be appreciated.

  239. Something that has gotten missed in all of this discussion in that it was an INTRAMURAL contest of teams, lots of teams, playing European handball. The black students involved would have gone to the same school as the whites.
    I think the students were thoughtless to have worn the Confederate flag to a sporting event, however, I know high school kids are thoughtless by nature. It goes with the territory. I thought the original ten days was too strong, but it was a judgment call. Permanent suspension is too much. That is just a power play. It it PC out of control.

  240. Censorship Notice: Jonathan Turley, supporter of the Citizens United Decision, thinks free speech ends at his blog…

    Look, Jonathan, I’ve reined it in. The posts you deleted went out of my way to not call people names. IN place of calling someone a BSer, I actually detailed what the person is lying about.

    Also, I didn’t say I disagree with your civility policy, I said civility is overrated. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

    Finally, this: “If there is a comment that you believe violates the civility rule, feel free to contact me.”

    I have stated many times now, as have others, that the comments by Nick toward me, like calling me a Shiite Liberal, or the comment above that anon pointed out wasn’t civil, are still there… It seems you’ve focused on me for some reason.

    I wonder why that is?

  241. Scott wrote: “… as if the last 50 years, and the Southern Strategy from the GOP never happened. As if Ronnie Raygun never kicked off his Presidential campaign in Philadelphia MS. As if Lee Atwater never said “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” ”

    I’m not saying these events never happened. I just process them a little differently. Reagan’s kick off speech was actually in New Jersey, but if you want to know more about his Neshoba speech 7 miles from Philadelphia, MS, then read the following from another legal blog, the Volokh Conspiracy:
    http://www.volokh.com/2011/08/16/reagans-infamous-speech-in-philadelphia-mississippi/

    In regards to Lee Atwater, his interview in 1981 had been wrongly edited to foster hatred toward Republicans. That speech actually argued that the Southern Strategy was no longer relevant and that Reagan had no need to use it because racism was no longer an issue in the South. By that time, many Democrats had either left the Democratic party to create the Dixiecrats, or later switched to the Republican party because their fight for racism somewhat ended with Johnson’s signing of the Civil Rights Act. The problem is that to characterize the Republican party as a racist party because of Lee Atwater’s statement is like trying to characterize the Republican party as the party of gays and same sex marriage because Ken Mehlman also was the RNC chairman and supports these things. Such is a fallacious argument.

  242. Paul Schulte I’m well aware of the history of drug laws, thank you. What you avoided is that the current crop of marijuana laws, as they were laid down in the early 20th century, were racist and targeted Mexicans. Are you denying this fact?

    And the point of bringing that up is to refute the idea that the most racist law ever passed in this country was Reagan’s 1986 law that was wrongly attributed to Tip O’Neil (as if darn near everyone in congress didn’t vote for it).

    I’m also well aware of the black unemployment rate, and the piece you’ve linked to does not refute what I said about minimum wage laws not causing unemployment. Did you even read the Bloomberg piece I linked to that points out that the State of Washington has had the nation’s highest minimum wage for years, and their job growth rate is way higher than the national average? Or that their poverty rate is very low compared to the rest of the country?

    The idea that increasing the minimum wage causes unemployment is a lie.

    As for this: “Permanent suspension is too much.” Well, now, that depends on what other trouble those kids had been in before, eh? Kind of hard to make a judgement when you don’t have all the facts.

  243. Jonathan,

    I think you need to take a look at this ….. I think it’s really contrary to your view on civility….:

    on 1, April 18, 2014 at 12:20 pmNick Spinelli
    Where’s the white knight, Scott? As I suspected, he was just a drive-by hater looking for hits. But, he was a short-lived hero for some of his ilk here.

  244. Scott Supak wrote: “All kinds of research, as if you cared about facts, shows that a higher minimum wage has a very minimal impact on unemployment.”

    Research is conclusive that minimum wage creates higher unemployment among UNSKILLED workers. You can raise minimum wage all you like among skilled workers, and you are right, it will not have an effect or in many cases it benefits the skilled workers. The issue is what effect does raising the minimum wage have on unskilled workers, like teenage blacks.

    The problem is that young blacks, generally speaking, are not skilled workers. In South Africa, they implemented the minimum wage admittedly as a racist policy, to cause people to hire more whites than blacks.

    Take a look at this article by Walter Williams:

    Politics and Minimum Wage
    http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2014/01/08/politics-and-minimum-wage-n1772533/page/full

    “Economics textbooks that mention the minimum wage say that it increases unemployment for the least skilled worker. The only significant debate about the minimum wage is the magnitude of its effect.”

    “… Republican politicians have long resisted increases in the minimum wage, but that makes no political sense. The reason is the beneficiaries of preventing increases in the minimum wage don’t vote Republican no matter what; where’s the political quid pro quo?”

    “Our nation’s first minimum wage law, the Davis-Bacon Act of 1931, had racist motivation.”

  245. davidm2575, after quoting from a now deleted comment of mine: “I’m not saying these events never happened. I just process them a little differently.”

    Yeah, I bet you do. Because Republicans know they have people in their party who’ve been caught passing pictures of our President around dressed as a witch doctor, eating watermelon, etc… You know that most of the racist attacks toward blacks in this country come from your party. You desperately want to call the Democrats the real racists, using twisted “facts” like your argument against the minimum wage, but it just doesn’t fly. Minorities have been running from your party for years now.

    As for your link to your fellow conservative at volokh, here’s a little hint: You guys might think it’s not racist to stand in front of a Bunch of Mississippi Republicans 7 miles from Philadelphia MS and talk about state’s rights, but those who are fluent in dog whistles know what it was about.

    You can try to lie away these basic facts all you want, but the more people hear you talk about these issues, the less they believe you.

    So, keep talking.

    As for Lee Atwater, the quote I put up, which has since been deleted, is a DIRECT quote. It was not “wrongly edited.” HE was not, as Jonathan Chait has been trying to argue from his nowhere land, Atwater saying the southern strategy was dead. It was Atwater talking about the code, about the dog whistles, which continue to this day with the likes of “food stamp president” or Paul Ryan’s BS about a culture of dependency in the inner cities when 2/3rds of the poor in this country are rural whites….

    Here’s another example. The new Progressive Mayor of NYC is getting rid of stop and frisk. Thank goodness. He’s opposed by Republicans who support the law.

    But I wonder if those who support stop and frisk know the results of their policy…

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/05/22/2046451/white-people-stopped-by-new-york-police-are-more-likely-to-have-guns-or-drugs-than-minorities/

    “The likelihood a stop of an African American New Yorker yielded a weapon was half that of white New Yorkers stopped. The NYPD uncovered a weapon in one out every 49 stops of white New Yorkers. By contrast, it took the Department 71 stops of Latinos and 93 stops of African Americans to find a weapon.
    • The likelihood a stop of an African American New Yorker yielded contraband was one-third less than that of white New Yorkers stopped. The NYPD uncovered contraband in one out every 43 stops of white New Yorkers. By contrast, it took the Department 57 stops of Latinos and 61 stops of African Americans to find contraband.”

    I could go on all day with examples of racist policies supported mostly by Republicans, and opposed mostly by Democrats. But you wouldn’t care.

    Now, why don’t you count up all the Democrats who were birthers, who sent racist emails of Obama, who called him a food stamp president, or said he was doing a “shuck and jive” act… I’ll do the same for Republicans who’ve done that.

    And then we’ll compare lists. OK?

  246. Scott,

    Just so you have a heads up…. Someone is most likely complaining directly to the professor about you….. You see that way they keep you from keeping the eye on the ball…. It’s a shell game or three card Monty…. Take your choice….

    I don’t do tit for tat… But just thought I’d give you a heads up…….

  247. David defending the Cornerstone speech…

    “You seem to ignore the bulk of the CSA. Most of the speech was not about white supremacy.”

    Um, THE CORNERSTONE of the CSA was white Supremacy. Hence the name of the speech? Their whole new nation was based on the idea that whites are superior and you want to reject that by saying, well, the rest of the speech wasn’t about that? Hilarious.

    ” You also ignore that his racist remarks did not encapsulate the sentiments of all Southerners”

    Now where did I say that ALL southerners were racists? Many southerners were blacks. OK, they were really only 3/5ths southerners, but…

    “How many other speeches can you find that expresses such racism? ”

    Tons. You should know. You’re a smart guy. You’re familiar with the racist terrorist Nathan Bedford Forrest?

    “Achilles Clark, a soldier with the 20th Tennessee cavalry, wrote to his sister immediately after the battle: “The slaughter was awful. Words cannot describe the scene. The poor, deluded, negroes would run up to our men, fall upon their knees, and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. I, with several others, tried to stop the butchery, and at one time had partially succeeded, but General Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased.””

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest#Fort_Pillow

    Not exactly white supremacy, but pretty damning testimony against the first grand dragon of the KKK, eh?

    And, of course, he was probably a Democrat, so that means the Democrats of today, 50 years after LBJ signed the CVA are the real racists who still blow the god whistles and use the Southern Strategy.

    I could waste my day teaching you the history of the racist traitors who attacked the United States in order to continue slavery. But it wouldn’t matter, because you don’t care about facts.

  248. David:

    “Research is conclusive that minimum wage creates higher unemployment among UNSKILLED workers.”

    Because you say so? Research by biased freshwater economists says what you want it to say, doesn’t it? Show me the research. I just showed you how the state of Washington has shown, in the REAL WORLD, how having the highest minimum wage in the US actually helped LOW SKILL workers.

    “Payrolls at Washington’s restaurants and bars, portrayed as particularly vulnerable to higher wage costs, expanded by 21 percent. ”

    I don’t need to go read more “discussions” from people like you that simple deny basic facts while you claim the opposite of the truth is true.

    And I want to get back to another particular erroneous statement by you:

    “The problem is that to characterize the Republican party as a racist party because of Lee Atwater’s statement is like trying to characterize the Republican party as the party of gays and same sex marriage because Ken Mehlman also was the RNC chairman and supports these things. Such is a fallacious argument.”

    The ENTIRE Republican party practices the Southern Strategy. What Atwater, one of your chief strategists was saying was that this was HOW THE PARTY did these things. This was how you won elections.

    Ken Melman wasn’t going around blowing dog whistles about gay haters. Ken Melman didn’t build an entire strategy out of pro-gay propoganda in order to get pro gay people to vote for Republicans.

    Lee Atwater ADMITTED that the party developed just such a strategy to get racists to vote for them.

    So, please, don’t tell me about MY argument be fallacious.

  249. Scott Supak wrote: “I could go on all day with examples of racist policies supported mostly by Republicans, and opposed mostly by Democrats. But you wouldn’t care.”

    Based upon these statistics that you shared, I do not support the stop and frisk policy.

  250. I read the rules, Paul. And I also joked that someone would say Nathan Bedford was a Democrat. 150 YEARS AGO! When Republicans were liberals.

    HOW many times do I have to point out that the racial attitudes of the parties switched after LBJ signed the CRA? Do you not know what the Southern Strategy is?

  251. David: “Based upon these statistics that you shared, I do not support the stop and frisk policy.”

    But you supported it before I showed you the statistics? So, you’re OK with stop and frisk, as long as minorities, who are targeted MORE, actually have more weapons and drugs? Or, maybe we should target whites, since they have the most drugs and weapons?

    Oh, and Paul: “We know from self-reporting that Annie was/is narcing Nick out to Prof. Turley.”

    Um, apparently Annie isn’t doing it enough, because Nick gets to call me a “Shiite liberal” but if I call him a BSer, my comment gets deleted.

    Maybe the Professor just likes Nick… Who knows. But the policy is certainly not being enforced fairly or equally. Not that it has to. It’s his place. He can delete whatever he wants, and leave whatever he wants.

  252. Scott – do you not know who all the racists were during the 1960s? Do you not know what party they belonged to. Do you not know it was the Republicans who got the CRA passed, not the Democrats, but they took credit for it.

    BTW, do you not know the amount of racism in the black community, both inside and out?

    And Scott, if you read the rules, follow them. Life will be much easier.

  253. Scott – maybe she did and Turley did not see it rose to the level he needed to see. I had the happen one time.

  254. AY: “I don’t do tit for tat”

    Me either, but I did tell the professor, multiple times in these comments, as did others, about Nick calling me names, and yet all those comments are still there.

    I suppose that unless you actually send Jonathan an email you don’t get what you want.

    I have not, and will not, report anyone to him. I don’t care if I’m called names. I have thick skin from years of being physically attacked by racist Republicans that I called out for their racism.

    Heck, I don’t even care if the rules are enforced fairly. What I do care about is that this supposed dedication to civility, as unevenly enforced as it is, is actually taking away from my replies to what is a particularly sad bunch of arguments, as per usual for conservatives these days…

    Honestly, to suggest that because over 50 years ago most of the racists were Democrats means it’s still the same is just hilariously… um… uninformed.

  255. Tip O’Neil was Speaker of the House. As Mr. Supak should have learned in 6th grade civics ALL LEGISLATION ORIGINATES IN CONGRESS. Tip O’Neil, was getting a lot of pressure when the #1 pick of the Celtics, Len Bias, blew up his heart smoking crack. Tip O’Neil is famous for the quote, “All politics are local.” This glad handing, whiskey drinking, red nosed politician was correct, and he was a master politician. He saw a tough election coming. The Republicans were running TV ads w/ a caricature of O’Neil driving around in a limo and laughing @ raising taxes. So, w/ the local pressure[Celtics are God in Tip’s district] and the upcoming national election, Tip decided the Dems needed to buck up. HE INTRODUCED THE DRACONIAN RACISTlaws. Of course Regan was on board, but it COULD NOT HAPPEN unless Tip wanted the racist law passed. The other dirty little secret is Boston Irish hate blacks, and virtually all Irish in Boston are hard core Dems. Remember the Irish DEMOCRATS hate when blacks were bussed into Southie. The Irish threatened to kill the Federal judge who ordered the bussing. This is the history. It is not spin.

  256. Partly correct….. All revenue measures must originate in the House….. But the president has Veto power if they do not get what they want….. So, tell me in this fairy world where all the bad guys are democrats and all the good guys are republican…. Where do we go….. The president suggests the agenda….

  257. Paul, “narcing out Nick”? This isn’t a playground. If I ever contact Professor Turley about Nick it’s about something that isn’t known here on this blog and have explained to Professor Turley in detail. I think perhaps you shouldn’t involve yourself in something you know nothing about. Professor Turley has stated that we should contact him regarding serious abuses of the civility rules. I have and I will continue to do so for reasons you aren’t privy to. Sometimes you need to mind your own business.

  258. Paul: “do you not know who all the racists were during the 1960s?”

    Do you not know that that was over 50 years ago and that a lot has happened since then, like the Southern Strategy?

    “Do you not know what party they belonged to.”

    DO you not know which party they switched to?

    “Do you not know it was the Republicans who got the CRA passed, not the Democrats”

    DO you not know that this is horribly wrong, that LBJ pushed the Civil Rights Act, twisted lots of Dixiecrat arms, SIGNED THE BILL (you are aware the Presidents have to sign bills to make them law, and that LBJ was a Democrat)?

    Here’s the vote total on the CRA. Democrats held majorities in both houses. ERGO, it could not have passed with ONLY Republican votes.

    House of Representatives:
    Democrats for: 152
    Democrats against: 96
    Republicans for: 138
    Republicans against: 34

    Senate:
    Democrats for: 46
    Democrats against: 21
    Republicans for: 27
    Republicans against: 6

    And you look at that and say “it was the Republicans who got the CRA passed”?

    OK, then.

    “do you not know the amount of racism in the black community, both inside and out?”

    I’m not sure what you mean. Perhaps you should provide a link to something that proves your point, if you can figure out what it is? Are there blacks who are upset at how their race has been treated by whites, who see stories of kids wearing confederate flags specifically to anger black kids, and get mad about that? You bet! I’m sure there are even black people who have racist attitudes toward whites. Somewhere up there, if it didn’t get deleted, is a link to the Harvard implicit racism test. You should take it.

    But be sure to look at the study. Very few among us don’t have some racial bias. Most of the time, we’re not even aware of it. The question we should be looking at isn’t who are the racists, but who has the power to institutionalize racism? When I look around red states and see how minority districts have many fewer voting machines and polling places than white neighborhoods, I know what’s going on. Do you?

    ” if you read the rules, follow them. Life will be much easier.”

    I’m not interested in making my life easier. I’m interested in making yours harder.

  259. Please folks, there is a substantive discussion going on here. let’s respect the blog and stay on topic. Does anyone have any substantive information about how the racist crack cocaine laws became law? My wife had had to deal w/ these racist laws initiated and passed by Tip’s House. She saw on a daily basis It was the most racist law passed in our lifetime. It was a case handled by my wife’s office in Madison, Booker v US, that the Supreme Court found this law unconstitutional. I REALLY know this law.

  260. Nick:

    “Tip O’Neil was Speaker of the House.”

    I know who Tip O’Neil was.

    “HE INTRODUCED THE DRACONIAN RACISTlaws”

    And a whole bunch of people from both parties were behind writing the law before he introduced it. Just look at all the co-sponsors. Just look at the final vote tally I posted (if you didn’t get that deleted when you ran and tattled to the teacher).

    “Of course Regan was on board”

    Well, yeah, it was HIS Drug war, part of the southern strategy, designed to go after minorities. The fact that some spineless Democrats went along is shameful to me as a Democrat.

    “but it COULD NOT HAPPEN unless Tip wanted the racist law passed.”

    Yes, it could have. Some other Democrat could have introduced it. Or some Republican could have put up a discharge petition. It would have easily passed that way too. I guess my civics class wasn’t so bad, eh?

    “The other dirty little secret is Boston Irish hate blacks, and virtually all Irish in Boston are hard core Dems.”

    So? I can find non-racist Republicans, and I can find racist Democrats. In fact, there’s research out there that showed that many Democrats, especially in, say, WV, did not vote for this President while they did vote for the other Democrats on the ticket.

    So, what’s your point? Lots of racists in both parties. But you don’t see Democrats going around blaming inner city blacks for a culture of dependency and being lazy because most Democrats these days know that 2/3rds of this nations poor are rural whites.

    “Remember the Irish DEMOCRATS hate when blacks were bussed into Southie. The Irish threatened to kill the Federal judge who ordered the bussing. This is the history. It is not spin.”

    And you know what? A whole bunch of those Irish in Boston vote Republican now. That’s how Mitt Romney managed to become another of your one term governors. But, hey, at least he finished his term.

  261. Also Paul, Professor Turley does read these threads. There are any number of people who could and would “narc” you out. Following basic rules of human decency should keep you ‘safe’. :)

  262. Annie,

    Don’t get caught in the delusion……

    Man a really good topic getting dumped on…. I have it on good authority that Annie is not the only one contacting Jonathan….. So, Paul… Nick…. Get a life and stay out of the gutter…. Follow the civility rules and you won’t have issues….. And know if I have an issue I will contact Jonathan directly….

  263. I have 2 siblings in Boston. Irish vote Dem, PERIOD!! It was poor Irish turnout and yuppies voting Rep. who got Romney and Scott Brown elected. Keep them coming Mr. Supak, you’re just throwing batting practice fastballs. And, I’m half Irish and spent many nights drinking in the Combat Zone, Fenway, The Garden, etc. St. Patty’s I would go to NYC.

  264. Nick: “there is a substantive discussion going on here.”

    Yeah, it involves you calling me a Shiite Liberal.

    I posted the fact that the crack law was passed by HUGE majorities in both house. More Democrats voted against it than republicans, but that was only like 15 Democrats and one repub voting against it.

    Reagan’s War on Drugs was huge at the time. Everyone wanted on board.

    And when it comes to overturning that old law, HUGE majorities voted for the 2010 Fair Sentencing Act. The one notably person against it was Lamar Alexander who argued we should keep them. Lamar is a Republican.

    And go look at polling on making medicinal or recreational pot legal.

    It’s not the Democrats who like to punch hippies.

  265. Scott, it will be exceedingly evident how blacks will vote, how women will vote and how Asians and Hispanics will vote. And then there will be another “autopsy” to try to figure out what happened.

  266. Supak – even you have to be amazed at the voting pattern on the CRA. Without the Republican (racist though they are according to you) it would not have gotten passed. By percentage, a higher percentage of Republicans voted for the Bill than Democrats. Damn, those racist Republicans.

    Now, I contended early on, that just like only Nixon could go to China, only Johnson could have passed the CRA. I give him a lot of credit for doing it, even if it took extortion. I don’t like Johnson as a person, but I think he is a hell of a politician, he knew where all the bodies were buried.

    Studies like the one you have mentioned on implicit racism or the other one are designed to show that everyone is a racist. That is how they are designed. That is why psychology is coming more and more into disrepute. First homosexuality is a mental disorder, now it is not. Bipolar was a mental disorder, now it is chemical imbalance. Narcissism has disappeared as a disorder in the new DSM, since so many people thought Obama had it. It will probably come back once he is out of office. I am not a fan of Scientology, but I am beginning to think they are right about psychology and psychologists.

  267. Annie – I am grown up. I am not getting a denial from you, but I am getting some running around the subject. ;) Should I take that as an implicit yes?

  268. Scott Supak wrote: “Lee Atwater ADMITTED that the party developed just such a strategy to get racists to vote for them. So, please, don’t tell me about MY argument be fallacious.”

    Lee Atwater described the Harry Dent Southern Strategy in the wake of the Civil Rights Act that President Johnson signed. Previously, the vote in the South was won by fighting against Civil Rights. Now that the Civil Rights Act became law, the strategy was to use coded words to gain votes from racist people on the sidelines. Yes, this was used by Strom Thurmond, a racist Democrat turned Dixiecrat, then turned Republican. It was used with Barry Goldwater and Nixon. But Lee Atwater was very clear that it was not necessary by Reagan’s time. Basically, it was a strategy used to garner voters from the South in the wake of Republicans winning on the Civil Rights issue. But your take on it is blown way out of proportion. Here’s a link to an analysis that is much more balanced in truth:

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/06/what-did-lee-atwater-really-say.php

  269. Party registration[edit]
    As of August 25, 2010, voter registration in Massachusetts is as follows:

    Voter Registration and Party Enrollment as of October 13, 2010[5]
    Party Number of Voters Percentage
    Democratic 1,528,974 36.48%
    Republican 474,798 11.33%
    Unaffiliated 2,162,840 51.61%
    Minor Parties 24,295 0.58%
    Total 4,190,907 100%
    See also[edit]

  270. Just as a point of no interest, Barry Goldwater was a founding member of the Phoenix Chapter of the NAACP and all of his department stores were integrated.

  271. Paul, this is getting tiresome. Someone says “Republicans were the ones who passed the CRA” I show that that in fact, Republicans ALONE could not have passed it, that large majorities of BOTH parties voted for it, and you’re argument is that, well MORE republicans voted for it as a percent.

    You know what all that leaves out? IT’s HISTORY! 50 years ago. A lot has happened since then. The liberal Republicans of the North East are gone, and had more in common with my progressive politics than you do. On many issues, not just race, I might add.

    I also should add that only one party has people now who go around saying they would repeal parts of it, in order to allow private business owners to discriminate if they wanted.

    Your argument leaves out the last 50 years for good reason. It’s full of shameful pandering by the Republican party to the Dixiecrats in the south. And it worked. Very well. That’s why, despite protestations to the contrary, Ronnie went to Philadelphia Miss and gave a speech about states rights. It’s the mother of all dog whistles, with some hippie punching to boot.

  272. Paul, this is meaningless, and now you’re just trying to Gish Gallop away from all my many points. To you, this is a forum to post one meaningless out of context piece of evidence after another, while ignoring all the (edited) attempts to have a meaningful back and forth.

    I lived in one of the most liberal sections of Hollywood California for years. I had a UNION brother who lived very closeby who was and is a rabid Republican. You can no more say that every Boston Southy Irish is a Democrat any more than I can say that every white guy in Alabama is a Republican.

  273. Deletion notice: I have again deleted comments that are continuing a rather juvenile tit-for-tat by a couple of posters. I understand that some people feel that the rule is being applied unfairly. I do not have a dog in any of these fights. I virtually never delete criticism of me or the blog. However, the constant juvenile attacks on individual posters has to stop. For those complaining about their deletions, these were not close calls. Despite repeated (if not a record) number of deletions tonight, this thread continues unabated. It is truly becoming creepy. We get it. You do not like how the policy is being enforced. You don’t like particular posters. Time to move on. Please stop the personal attacks or just go on to the great variety of sites that reject civility rules and even relish this type of commentary. We do not. I would seriously like to enjoy the Passover and Easter weekend with my family. This is a site reserved for people who want to discuss the issues and not personalities with other posters.

  274. I need to constantly remind ideologues that I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT. I voted for Obama once, wised up after that. I have never voted for a Republican for president. This does not compute for lovers of steak tartare.

  275. Hi Dredd:

    “Exit polls in the last presidential election show that Obama won the female vote (55%), Romney won the male vote (52%); Romney won the white vote (59%), Obama won the Black (93%), Hispanic (71%), and Asian (73%) vote. In the age categories Obama won the 18-29 (60%), 30-44 (52%), while Romney won the 45-64 (51%) and 65+ (56%).

    Additional statistics at that site can be viewed here.

    The tea-leaves in those statistics indicate which way the wind is blowing.”

    You keep turning a discussion about censorship into a partisan attack. I really don’t want to quarrel personally. Instead I would like to address some points you have raised.

    I find it ironic that your exit poll breakdown followed your excerpts from studies on self-deception, and how it can affect internet searches.

    1) Democratic politicians and the mainstream media have declared that the Republican Party is racist. The Democratic voters (which include a large proportion of minorities) believe it, ignoring any evidence to the contrary, or failing to research for themselves. (Your study excerpts are really apropos.) For example, when Democratics were asked what they thought of the Tea Party, they universally declared that it was racist. When they were asked for a single example of racism, not a single one could come up with ONE example. They deceived themselves into believe it was racist, and did not bother to research the issue for themselves.
    2) “Show me a young Conservative and I’ll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I’ll show you someone with no brains.” (There is some controversy as to whether or not it was Churchill who coined this phrase.) The young typically pay little to no taxes, and typically vote for higher taxes. Democratic candidates and measures typically call for higher taxes and more “free stuff” (that they never can seem to pay for and always end up calling for more money). By the time those same people are in their forties, they’ve held a job, paid taxes, and struggled to make ends meet with what’s left of their paycheck after Uncle Sam takes its cut. Some have started businesses. They understand there is no “free stuff”. We all end up paying for it, and the bill can be expensive. By that time, more have switched to conservative leanings, especially fiscal conservatism.
    3) Do minorities vote Democrat because the Republican Party is racist? Or is it because the Democrats tell them Republicans are racist, and, more importantly, offer them lots and lots of stuff?

    Anyone who has worked in a research environment understands the difficulty of interpreting data. Are conservatives aging out, a dying breed? Or do the young become conservative as they grow older?

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/309602/letter-young-voters-dennis-prager

  276. Scott wrote: “Paul, this is getting tiresome. Someone says “Republicans were the ones who passed the CRA” I show that that in fact, Republicans ALONE could not have passed it, that large majorities of BOTH parties voted for it, and you’re argument is that, well MORE republicans voted for it as a percent.”

    If I remember right, the CRA actually started with Kennedy. He approached Republicans about his desire to secure a civil rights act. Republicans then drafted the bill. A racist Democrat on the Rules Committee worked to keep the bill bottled up indefinitely. After Kennedy’s assassination, Johnson followed through to get the bill passed into law. The bottomline is that both Republicans and Democrats worked together to get the CRA passed into law. Why can’t we just all agree on that? And if this is true, then we should all agree that neither the Republican party nor the Democratic party are racist. There are some racists in both parties, but neither party has a racist platform.

  277. Karen, I am an avid reader on Churchill and I’m certain the quote is Any person who is not liberal when young, does not have a heart. Any person not conservative when they grow old does not have a brain. I am not aware of any doubts he said it.

  278. David:

    It’s true – racism is thinking ill of someone solely on the basis of race or ethnicity. Which means that the Reverend Wright is a racist. Jesse Jackson has made racist comments. Any jokes about whites are racist. Not voting for someone because he or she was white is racist.

    People say it is OK to be racist against anyone who is not black, but I cry foul. Racism is wrong, and there is no excuse on this planet Earth that will make it right. We can go back to the Stone Age with great ills humanity has done against each other. The sins of the ancestors does not excuse wrongs against descendants today. Many, many white people died to free the slaves. Widows and children were left without financial support when the breadwinner were lost. Whites were willing to pay with their lives and the ruination of their families to force the South to give up slavery. They paid the freight on correcting the wrongs of others. If Lincoln had not been assassinated, I have no doubt that Civil Rights would have come about much sooner.

    So, if anyone makes broad statements about who “the racists” are voting for, I think we unfortunately have a large pool of citizens for whom judgements on people are still made based on race and ethnicity. There is racism in Mexicans against South Americans, in blacks against whites, Latinos, and Asians, as well as in Caucasians against other races. It’s sad. Culture and ethnicity are interesting, and skin color is an evolutionary balance between optimizing vitamin D production and protection from UV rays. It’s time we stop making every issue about race, and just focus on people instead.

  279. jonathanturley wrote: “I would seriously like to enjoy the Passover and Easter weekend with my family. This is a site reserved for people who want to discuss the issues and not personalities with other posters.”

    The professor’s comment here resonates with me. It is holiday time, so I’m planning on taking a break for a few days. Happy Holidays everyone.

  280. Just to remind everyone again – I am a registered Independent, have been for 30 years or more. In the last two Presidential elections I voted for my favorite write-in candidate, Mickey Mouse, who I thought would do a much better job than anyone running.

  281. David, Happy Easter. Nobody likes ham or lamb in my family, I am cursed w/ picky eaters. So, we’re having steak. I spent Easter in Vegas once. I felt like a true sinner,

  282. Yes I agree with the professor…. Stay with the theme of the thread…. Don’t make it personal… Now if we could just stop the hatin……

  283. Paul wrote: “… I am a registered Independent… In the last two Presidential elections I voted for my favorite write-in candidate, Mickey Mouse, who I thought would do a much better job than anyone running.”

    ROTFLOL! Well, I am unsurprisingly a member of both the Tea Party and the GOP. I voted for Republican candidates for President in every election since Jimmy Carter, starting with Ronald Reagan.

  284. “It always interests me when people say it was a Southern strategy. The fact is that folks in the North, the South, the East and the West sometimes did this.”-Ken Mellman

    Yep.

    David:

    “CRA actually started with Kennedy.”

    Yep.

    “A racist Democrat”

    Yep.

    All over a half a century ago. Seems like just yesterday.

    “Johnson followed through to get the bill passed into law”

    Way understated. Johnson was probably the best arm twister ever in the oval office. He was Senate Majority leader. He worked hard to get those big majorities. Twisted arms in both parties.

    “The bottomline is that both Republicans and Democrats worked together to get the CRA passed into law.”

    Well, this is quite a different statement from what was implied before.

    “Why can’t we just all agree on that?”

    Because you, and others, were implying that it was the Republicans who got it passed. It wasn’t. In fact, you just admitted that it originated with a good ol’ Taxachusettes Democrat.

    Did most folks do the right thing at the time? Yes.

    Did the Republican party turn the south to Republicans in almost every national election since? You bet.

    Is it a coincidince that the regions of the country most heavily associated with racism historically, for ONE BIG OBVIOUS reason, have voted for Republicans ever since Johnson turned to Bill Moyers and said “We’ve lost the south for a generation”?

    Happy Holiday.

    And thank you, Professor, for helping me out and being patient. I’m not a lawyer. I take civil rights very personally, as I believe everyone should.

  285. David, Then you obviously hate women, minorities, and like to pee on the homeless when they are asleep on the street.

  286. The increased incarceration of black youth has been brought up as an example of Racist Republican Agendas.

    There is a legitimate debate on what to do with drug addicts. Incarceration doesn’t cure them. Forced drug rehab does not cure them. Should laws become stricter to make drugs less available, drugs which ruin lives and tear apart families as users succumb to addiction? Should laws become milder, to keep addicts out of prison? Whether an addict is in prison, rehab, or on the street, life as a crack or meth addict is bleak. It is not much of a life at all until or unless the user achieves sobriety, and even then, addiction can return at any time.

    What decimates the black community? From what I have read, the two highest risk factors for incarceration are single motherhood and the foster care system. When a woman becomes a single mom, especially at a very young age, it typically spells the end of her education. It becomes a lifelong struggle, and her child or children fare worse in school, get less help with homework, live in poorer circumstances, are more prone to use drugs and abuse alcohol, more prone to join a gang, get into foster care, and go to jail. There is just no way around the statistics. Being a single mom puts up immense obstacles for her children to overcome.

    The US has invested billions of dollars in Welfare, after-school programs, Head Start Programs, Food Stamps, and all sorts of benefits systems. But the Government makes a poor husband and father. And outsiders cannot lecture on change. At some point, the black community has to decide that it wants better for its daughters. And those young women have to want better for themselves and their future families. One of my favorite authors, Pearl Cleage, often incorporates black women deliberately becoming single moms into her stories.

    I don’t believe that Republicans frame black men to put them in prison. And anti-drug laws are intended to help Americans avoid the wreck of a life that an addict ekes out.

  287. We do know that David does care for homosexuals….. That they are pretty much degenerates…… As far as peeing on homeless folks…. I’m sure that there are some that would….. Tsk, tsk…..

  288. I gotta get going, but I see Karen S has some exit polls for Dredd. Funny.

    Who’s the latest target group of the GOP hate mongers? You know, the guys who say all the horrible things about gay people being child rapists and bestiality enthusiasts? The sodomite stoners? You know who I’m talking about Karen?

    Yeah, gay people are the latest target for the denial of civil rights. And guess what?

    Of non-gay voters, Romney and Obama were tied. Yep. Tied. 49% of straight people voted for Romney, and 49% voted for Obama.

    76% of gay people voted for Obama.

    So, please, tell me about gay people, Karen. What kind of rights should they have?

    http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/15/gay-vote-seen-as-crucial-in-obamas-victory/

  289. Nick – technically the War on Poverty continues, it is America’s longest running war. And we are not winning. More are in poverty now then when the program started.

  290. Scott, the interview was not with Bob Herbert. It was with Alexander Lamis. Herbert was an obsessive who simply quoted the interview like six times over four year period.

    You can listen to the entire interview here:
    http://www.thenation.com/article/170841/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy#

    Prior to that quote you gave is when Atwater says that racism was not an issue in Reagan’s election.

    Quoting Lee Atwater:
    =================
    So what you have is two things happening that totally washed away the Southern strategy, the Harry Dent type Southern strategy, and that is, that whole strategy was based, although it was more sophisticated than a Bilbo or a George Wallace, it was nevertheless based on coded racism. The whole thing, busing, we want a Supreme Court judge that won’t have busing, anything you look at can be traced back to the issue [of race], in the old southern strategy. It was not done in a blatantly discriminatory way.

    But Reagan did not have to do a southern strategy for two reasons. Number one, race was was not a dominant issue. And number two, the mainstream issues in this campaign had been, quote, southern issues since way back in the sixties. So Reagan goes out and campaigns on the issues of economics and of national defense. The whole campaign was devoid of any kind of racism, any kind of reference. And I’ll tell you another thing you all need to think about, that even surprised me, is the lack of interest, really, the lack of knowledge right now in the South among white voters about the Voting Rights Act.
    =================

    If you notice in the quote you offer, he places the date as 1968 for when this “Southern Strategy” of Harry Dent was used. It was used from the mid 1960’s and into the 1970’s. By Reagan’s time, racism was no longer an issue in elections according to Atwater. Listen to the entire interview of visit the link that I offered you previously.

    Now I really am going to take a break. I think we all need it. I really don’t want to add to Jonathan’s policing job over a holiday weekend.

  291. David: “I am unsurprisingly a member of both the Tea Party and the GOP.”

    Those are different things?

    Seriously. Gotta go guys. Keep talking. Tell us about lazy black drug addicts and what not Karen. Be sure to avoid casting aspersions on the asparagus of 2/3rds of America’s poor, the rural whites.

  292. “Scott, the interview was not with Bob Herbert. It was with Alexander Lamis. ”

    Fair enough, David, I stand corrected. Working fast off memory at this point.

    I do have time to say, however, that I look forward to you addressing all the points I’ve made which you have, so far, ignored.

    If I’m going to take the trouble to go through Gish Gallops, I should at least be given acknowledgement for my work.

    Happy Holiday.

  293. Scott, the Tea Party has a lot of libertarians and independents. Not too many Democrats.

    I may have a falling out with the Republican party based upon some recent dust ups over immigration. I will stay with the Tea Party though.

  294. Hi Scott:

    My husband is a small business owner, and we have other business owners in the family. Let me explain, from our perspective, the pros and cons of increasing minimum wage beyond inflation.

    Let’s hypothetically increase minimum wage to $10/hour. Well, now the people who already made $10/hour are being paid minimum wage. And they say, wait, how come I have more experience and I’m being paid the same as the entry level guy? Now EVERYONE else needs a commensurate raise, by the same amount, to keep it a fair meritocracy. (Typically, people get raises based on skill set, experience, and performance.)

    Now, no magic money tree has sprung up overnight for the employer. His budget is the same. And now his employee costs just went up significantly. He only has these choices – lay off employees, reduce hours, contract his business to a smaller size, increase the costs of his goods and services, or take a pay cut himself. For some businesses, especially small businesses, the owner does not have a very big profit margin already.

    For every action, there is a reaction . . . an effect.

    For those who got a raise to $10/hour and KEPT their job, they are better off. For those who got laid off or had their hours reduced, they are worse off.

    Now here is where Democrats and Republicans fundamentally diverge. Democrats want to reduce income inequality through redistribution. Work hard, don’t work hard, make good choices and stay in school, make bad choices and drop out of school . . . it’s all the same. Everyone should make the same amount of money no matter how hard they work. What they fail to do is measure the net result of their efforts. How many times has the minimum wage significantly increased? And yet we still have poverty.

    Republicans state the obvious: minimum wage was never intended to support a family of 5 in a middle class lifestyle. It is intended to be the first rung on the ladder of success, a chance to learn job skills. The vast majority of minimum wage earners get a raise within the first year. The kid frying burgers is supposed to make less than the manager.

    An employer gives a teenager with zero job skills a chance with a minimum wage job, from which he can work his way up.

    The best way to lower income inequality is to give people a job and a chance for upward mobility. It is exciting to be able to work hard and achieve prosperity, something that was impossible in caste and class societies.

    Think about it. If minimum wage increased to $100 an hour, how many employees could you afford to hire? $1,000 an hour? These large hypothetical increases make it obvious what too large a jump will cause.

  295. Just when I think I’m out, they drag me back in.

    “Kind of unheard of these days.”

    Really? How disingenuous. Clinton cut taxes. Obama extending, making a big chunk of the stimulus lower end tax cuts… I guess tax cuts only count if they’re for the rich, though, eh? And taxes were really high when Kennedy took office. Much easier to lower them when they’re up high to pay off a war.

    Another novel idea that your party apparently is not familiar with.

    But, gee, if the Progressive’s Better Off Budget and it’s tax increases on the rich (supported by big majorities) scares you that much, after 33 years of trickle down economics stealing the productivity increases from the median wage, then you’re just going to have to be scared.

  296. Scott – I’m not a hater. I don’t wish ill on anyone. I’m pretty new to following the blog, too.

    It’s interesting to hear everyone’s point of view.

    Happy Easter and Passover everyone. Enjoy the weekend.

  297. Scott – I didn’t talk about “lazy black drug addicts.” It was proposed that the racist Republican Party destroyed black communities and incarcerated young black men. I addressed the statistically significant highest risk factors for incarceration – having a single mom and/or foster care.

    Skin color is an evolutionary balance between optimal Vitamin D production and protection from UV rays.

  298. Karen:

    You are correct in your observations regarding small business. Plus, it often doesn’t end with some political movements.

    Washington has the highest statutory minimum wage of all the states. As of January 2014 it was raised to $9.32 an hour. There began a movement now that despite the minimum raise being the highest, now it is claimed that is not enough. Sea-tac passed a $15.00 minimum wage. Seattle is looking at it. After the Sea-tac ordinance passed two large hotel chains decided to halt their plans to construct two large hotels in the city. That prevented the hiring of a few hundred workers for the staffing of those hotels, not to mention the loss of construction jobs. Prices have increased in Sea-Tac for consumers. In fact, there are other businesses that are a block or two outside the city and have, if employees are paid $10.00 per hour, a 50% lower labor cost than their Sea-Tac competitors. Existing businesses where this has happened do have to chose how to mitigate labor costs, they will use the combination of layoffs and efficiency requirements (more work for existing workers) to make up for the cost difference. Lower wage jobs are typcially those where there is a need for many workers so labor becomes a large part of their total cost of doing business. Those will be the ones that will get hit hard. Also large corporations will have an even greater comparative advantage to small or family owned businesses because the corporation can derive cost cuts elsewhere or spread the cost of labor to other cost centers in other states.

    I also find it a little irritating on how businesses are regarded as being evil because they want profit but ordinary workers are understandably lauded for having income. Profit is to companies what earned income is to private citizens. Extremely few numbers of individuals would work their entire lives for no income. But the same is expected by many of companies. Without an income for companies there is no incentive whatever to do business. If companies do not make a profit or forsee one the consider acceptable in the future, they close shop.

    Simple solutions are usually not simple or solutions.

  299. Karen, do you really think low wage workers don’t work hard? As a nurse I worked with inner city, grown women with children who routinely worked double shifts as CNAs just to get by. It was difficult backbreaking, often thankless work. They were willing to work hard, yet because the wage was so low never got ahead as every penny was spent for the necessities of life. No trips to Europe, no second vacation home, no expensive tuition for either themselves or their children. My son in law, the manufacturer who uses cheap China labor to be able to afford two homes, one of which was paid for in cash and who can afford multiple family vacations to numerous foreign countries, told me once In a discussion about poverty, that folks have a choice, “work smart or work hard”. Working smart must entail using very low wage workers.

    For many those low wage jobs, DESPITE hard work does not move them along in a meritocrtous system. Very few of the CNAs I worked with went on to nursing school because they were already swamped working long hours as CNAs, again to have the necessities, not the luxuries. Where I live I see many people who have never really associated socially or in an employment situation with other people that are black or Hispanic. They are cocooned in their suburban homes. Their children don’t have a clue about the lives of children in the inner city unless their parents or church encourages them to volunteer in some feeding program, womens shelter, etc. My own grandchildren were told by myself (and minimally by my daughter and son in law) how some other children live and just how privileged and lucky they really are. I love my daughter and son in law, but like so many of their socioeconomic circle they think they work harder, work smarter and are mor ‘desrving’. I’ve seen it with my own eyes for many years now and it’s not the ‘American way’, there simply is not a system in place that makes hard work meritorious to all.

    Democrats recognize and do encourage hard work and education, Republicans seem to think they have the market on this notion, which is fallacious.

  300. If Democrats were so hot to encourage hard work, they would cut off the extension of unemployment and welfare, plus they would push for charter schools. I see neither of these happening. Democrats talk the talk, but they do not walk the walk. They want the system to be fair, but life is not fair and there is no reason the system should be fair.
    I started my second life with no job, no place to stay, $2 in my pants pocket and just the clothes on my back (and the jeans were two sizes too big). I went from there to the comfortable retirement I have now. I have lived through Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. However, I did learn to work very hard to get ahead at each job and sometimes it was both working harder and working smarter that got me up the next rung of the ladder. Last job I had, they hired me during the phone interview. Never saw them in person until I showed up. At that job I ended up with two jobs because of my hard work and the high quality of my work. One during regular business hours and one I worked on in the car during the commute (my wife was driving).
    So, paying the CNAs more as a minimum wage will mean, since they are on the bottom rung, that at least one of them or more, depending on the rise in minimum wage, will be looking for another job.
    Now, if the nurses had been willing to take a pay cut that would have been given to the CNAs, then there would have been a fairness in your system, but you expect someone else to pay for them, the hospital (and ultimately the patient and their insurance carrier) it is not coming out of your pocket.
    Here, in Maricopa County, AZ, we have part-time nursing colleges, designed for people who work full-time. It takes twice as long to get through, but you can work a 40 hour week and still get your nursing degree. So, Arizona thinks about the fairness you are talking about.

  301. Paul,

    Your rant scares me….. I suppose the old and infirm should be taken care of by family or put to death……

  302. People come to this country from all over the world. They risk their lives to come to this country. Because they KNOW if you work hard and smart you can prosper. As my immigrant Uncle Charlie would always say to me, “The harder you work the luckier you get.”

  303. Paul,

    It just part of the mantra you speak….. Just because it’s not said does not mean you don’t think it….. And btw how exactly am I off topic when the thread is about a flag, school function and racism….. Explain please?

  304. Paul,

    You’re talking about eliminating worker unemoyment and dumbing down the children….. Just part of the mantra in which you speak…. You see Karl Rove has already stated that his party can’t compete with educated folks……

  305. Hi Annie:

    “Karen, do you really think low wage workers don’t work hard? As a nurse I worked with inner city, grown women with children who routinely worked double shifts as CNAs just to get by.”

    I’ve read and re-read my posts, and cannot figure out how you came to the conclusion that I think low wage workers don’t work hard. I have had periods in my life where I was struggling and poor, surviving on Mac N Cheese and carrots. At one point I worked 3 jobs. What I said was that minimum wage jobs are supposed to be entry level, where unskilled workers gain experience. It was never intended to be able to support a family of 5 in a middle class lifestyle.

  306. KarenS, We have a few weavers of straw men and women here. It’s tedious dealing w/ it so I usually just ignore that low rent attack.

  307. KarenS, Great point. There are many stepping stones in all professions. A CNA works to be an LPN. Then they go to school and get a bachelors and/or masters becoming and RN. Then PA. Bookkeepers become accountants then CPA’s.

  308. Annie,

    You can ignore the low rent attack…. Not worth responding to it….

    Paul,

    You speak words of wisdom when it comes to logic escaping (some) you….. I could not agree more….

  309. Paul:

    You make a good point. There are two ways to give CNA’s a raise – increase minimum wage, which will cause a raise in all wages, accordingly, or the hospital can increase the starting wages for CNAs in recognition of the skill set and requirements of the job.

    Both options have to be paid for. I do not know the profit margin of the hospital you work at. There are only a fixed number of options to give one set of employees a non-meritorious raise: layoff other employees and make the remaining work harder, give pay cuts or freeze raises for all the other employees, increase the costs of hospital services for patients, or take an income cut in profits. Mathematically, there are no other options.

    But I can never get proponents of massive minimum wage increases to review these options with me. Which one do they want to happen? Would you be willing to take a pay cut so that the lower wage staff like cafeteria workers and CNA’s can all get a raise?

  310. Why can’t I get people who call for higher wages for everyone to answer which option they would choose to make it happen?

  311. AY – Karen S is offering an excellent opportunity to show your economic skill set. Which option would you select for increasing the minimum wage for CNAs?

  312. AY – I sincerely want to hear a point of view on how wage increases for everyone are to be accomplished. My own husband earns a few thousand less than his highest-paid employee. Giving raises to everyone would make him earn LESS than his employees. And he has problems with some of his workers not showing up on time or blowing off work. Giving them all mandated raises until they make more than he does . . .you can see the problem.

  313. Karen,
    Your premise starts out with a fallacy. You consider people being able to work 40 hours and make a living wage is not a meritorious raise. Yet there are no screams or wails of agony when CEO’s make 300-500 times more than their workers, even when the company is losing money. Raising the minimum wage will lift all boats in the economy.

  314. When I hear the debate on how unfair it is for minimum wage to not support families with a single wage earner, it reminds me of a Far Side cartoon. A scientist had part of a math proof on the black board, underneath it said “Then a Miracle Happens”, and then wrote his conclusion.

  315. Folks, Just a tip. I’ve been here longer than you. If you notice there are some folks to whom I don’t respond. It’s tough, I know!! But, it’s the only way.

  316. Hi Rafflaw:

    In the old days, a company was run by a Board of Directors which also invested their own money in the company. They would have all had to pay to give someone a Golden Parachute. They ran their companies in fiscally conservative ways, always mindful that it was their own money they were risking.

    Once companies became openly traded on the stock market, it allowed “the little guy” to make money trading, but it also gave companies “other people’s money” to play with. I think I’ve been consistent in my opinion of how we treat “other people’s money” in spending.

  317. Rafflaw – if my husband makes a matter of thousands more a year than his employee, how will he pay to give them all raises, especially those who have trouble making it in to work on Monday, and taking off early? He does not make 400 to 500 more than his employees. What are we supposed to do?

  318. Since I was an employer of numerous folks….. I always paid better than minimum wage…. In my opinion it should just be a starter wage and increase after that…. So I’m probably not a good person to ask….

  319. Karen, I am only speaking for myself, but comparing a small biz to a major corporation is apples and oranges. Big biz gets all types of perks from the govt. because they bribe..err, lobby. So, I dismiss comparisons out of hand.

  320. Hi Rafflaw:

    I am against Golden Parachutes and board members looting publicly held companies. Not sure yet what I think is the best way to do that.

    Your article said that increasing minimum wage leads to business success. I have to question the study parameters. How, exactly, are we small business owners supposed to do that? Again, we have the same options I’ve stated before: lay other employees off, raise prices on customers, or make less (in our case we would be taking all the risk of owning the company but making less than our employees). There ARE no other options for us. We are in a highly competitive industry. There is NO way we could compete raising prices unless everyone else raised theirs and chose not to layoff.

    Rafflaw – which option would you choose to increase wages for everyone?

  321. rafflaw – there are no statistics behind your claim. Tom Cruise makes a boatload more than I do, but I do not care. Minimum wage is for entry level positions. The average entry level person EARNS a raise within 3 months. At the end of a year, most entry level people are earning 24% more than minimum wage. Flipping burgers at McDonald’s in NOT a profession. The job of McDonald’s is to take unskilled workers, give them some skills and work ethic and move them on. This is part of the corporate model.

  322. Karen,
    your response suggests that many of his employees don’t work as hard as the boss. Of course, that is not borne out by the facts. Are you suggesting that if your husband is not making 400 to 500 times what his employees are making, CEO’s at thousands of companies are not? As a sidelight, If you husband has employees that are not coming to work as scheduled, why isn’t he firing them and hiring people who will work as scheduled? A bad employee is a bad employee at any salary.

  323. Folks you in case you haven’t figured out I’m a relic and so is raff …. We have been here longer than most….. If you notice raff is quite good at not responding to known errant ones… Just so you know…. The professor is in charge of the blog… Not nick…..

  324. rafflaw – also part of the corporate model is the scarcity of labor resources. When unemployment was really low, entry level paid roughly $1/hr more than minimum wage in Arizona because of the competition for a scarce labor force. Now labor is at a surplus, ideally 5 unemployment is considered optimal, so why pay more than you have to. You can pass the savings on to the customer. Increased labor costs will certainly be passed on to the customer.

  325. Paul,
    Since at least the recession started, if not earlier, minimum wage jobs are not just entry level jobs. Flipping burgers at Macs is a profession for many. The job of McDonalds is not to take unskilled workers and give them skills. It’s job is to make money at all costs. And if the lawsuits filed recently are any clue, Mac’s job may be to withhold earned wages from employees.

  326. AY – you’re not a “relic”. Don’t be silly. I want to hear Rafflaw’s and your point of view on which choice you think is best in order to give wage earners everywhere a large raise, regardless of how well they do their jobs. I am sincere.

  327. It’s true that a business is out to make money just like we all took jobs to make money.

    Minimum wage is the first rung on the ladder for unskilled workers. This rotten economy has forced many who lost their jobs to take lower level jobs. It’s been rough. The answer is not to cost more people their jobs, as the CBO has predicted. The answer is to create more jobs. What creates jobs? Business expansion. Government can only increase government jobs, but they are paid for on the backs of taxpayers.

  328. First of all Paul,
    Arizona is not a model for the country. Secondly, Yes some labor costs are passed on to the customer, but well paid employees work more efficiently. Once again where are you getting your claim that entry level workers are paid $1.00 more than minimum wage in Arizona during low unemployment times? The reason you pay more and provide a living wage is that those people spend most of what they earn in the economy. Finally, shouldn’t everyone who works 40 hours be able to live above poverty? WWJD?
    Karen,
    We are not talking about part time jobs here. We are talking about people working full time and we are talking about the entire economy, not your husbands business alone.

  329. rafflaw – although there have been lawsuit aplent, as we both know anyone with $125 (the cost to file in Arizona) can file suit. As an attorney friend used to tell me, if you gave the clerk of the court $125 he would file your hat.
    Like many franchises, some franchisees are better than others. I do not think withholding earned wages is part of the corporate model, but training unskilled labor is. A classmate of mine owned three franchisees in southern Oregon and explained his hiring and training methodology (put forward from the corporate office) to me. It really was fascinating.
    BTW, how about those lawsuits regarding unpaid legal internships. Or the underpaid document reviewers, some even paying less than minimum wage?

  330. Hi Rafflaw:

    What do you think about the CBO study indicating this will cost 500,000 jobs and hurt businesses? The part-time job was an example.

    “Shouldn’t everyone who works 40 hours be able to live above poverty?” Should a paper delivery route support a family of 5 in a middle class lifestyle? Should picking up horse manure? A baby-sitter? You could cobble together 40 hours a week in any combination of those jobs. How many middle class people pay people in those jobs?

    I understand you are not talking about my husband’s business alone. I am not talking about only my husband’s business either. We are typical small business owners.

    Again, which choice do you think is best for small business owners to give wage increases to everyone, regardless of how well they do their job? Please can someone answer this math question?

  331. rafflaw – my claim is based on the signs in the windows of the fast food places looking for unskilled labor.

  332. Which choice should small business owners choose in order to give everyone a raise – layoff employees and make the remaining work harder, raise prices on customers, or take a pay cut themselves?

    Rafflaw: “well paid employees work more efficiently.” Where is your proof that a raise makes a worker do more output than he did previously?

  333. Karen,
    you keep coming back to an underlying theme that some workers are not working very hard or well. Fire them and hire someone who will do the job well and get their on time.
    Employees around the country receiving more money will spend that money in the economy, helping all business. Once again, minimum wage is not the starting rung on the ladder for millions. For millions of people it is what their full time job is paying and they can’t earn enough to live and pay their bills and end up costing us all money in social services.
    It does surprise me when conservatives use CBO figures when they won’t accept CBO figures when it states Obamacare will reduce our debt and save us billions on health care expenses.
    AY,
    While some days I feel like a “relic”, I have a few years left…God willing! :)

  334. Karen,
    Why does your husband pay a worker more when he/she performs better on the job? Is that not an incentive to work harder or smarter or more efficiently?

  335. All labor costs and all taxes are passed on to consumers ALL!! That is economics 101 and known to a guy running a hot dog wagon or majoe corporation.

  336. I have yet to have a comment retrieved in 2014. Gee. I’m beginning to think this might be personal!!!

  337. Rafflaw:

    My husband gives raises based on performance. He also gives more complex responsibilities. For him, entry level jobs are “grunt work” jobs. He does not expect an employee to do the work of 2 men in exchange for a raise. He expects him to do his job well, and challenges him with different responsibilities.

  338. But I’m pretty sure we could give the guy who won’t come in to work on time on Monday, or shows up hung over, a raise and we would get no sudden change from him.

  339. Rafflaw:

    “Karen,
    you keep coming back to an underlying theme that some workers are not working very hard or well. Fire them and hire someone who will do the job well and get their on time.” Well, what I’m saying is that giving everyone a raise means that every kind of worker gets a raise – those who are doing a great job and those who are not. It’s not meritorious, it’s just across the board.

    My husband hates to fire anyone. He’ll give chance after chance until he’s done.

  340. YES, Spinelli, some LPNs do go on to get a BSN and a MSN, as I DID. Now do you have something you would like to say here? Don’t be shy, say it. You seem to think you know something, what IS IT Spinelli?

  341. Annie,

    Please… Don’t encourage the ….. Peanut crowd as one suggested….. Sometimes they can’t see through the sarcasm and really want to engage in negatative attack….

  342. Which choice should small business owners choose in order to give everyone a raise – layoff employees and make the remaining work harder, raise prices on customers, or take a pay cut themselves?

    The reason why I have concerns about pushing an enormous minimum wage increase is that I have never been able to get anyone to answer this question. Not just here. Anywhere. As a small business owner, I have real concerns about this.

  343. Annie – you have been very testy the last couple of days. That is unlike you. Holiday stress getting to you?
    ====
    AY – you need to keep up with the conversation.

  344. Annie,

    Don’t engage in the negatative attacks….. I see it’s threefold now….. Makes one wonder…..

    Paul,

    Thank you for your feint concern….

  345. Paul, I could ask you what your issue was a daily basis, but I won’t. Perhaps you should keep your personal observations to yourself regarding my ‘mood’.

  346. Annie – perhaps, perhaps not. But you could answer my question on taking a pay cut. BTW, congrats on your MSN. :)

  347. Elaine, Could you please try and retrieve some lost comments on this and the pot smoking Jesus thread. I’m 0 for 17 now this year and hope you can end my slump. Thanks!

  348. So . . . no one who supports massive pay increases will answer my question, either? I’m disappointed. Because in order for me to judge the validity of a proposal like this, I have to understand how the promoting side expects it to work, logistically. I’ve been clear about the choices small business owners face, but I never get a response from here or anywhere else.

    So I’m left to assume that they’re going with the “something will just work out” approach.

    Because my family actually does own a small business, built on the blood and sweat, literally, of my husband, how this will pan out will affect me personally. Actually, it will affect everyone, personally, through job losses and rising cost of goods and services that are anticipated.

  349. It’s frustrating, because how am I supposed to judge the ability of a plan to work if the logistics are completely ignored? There is an emphasis of the emotion and intent behind the plan, “helping the poor”, while ignoring how it will mathematically come about.

  350. Karen – it is an old argument trick, when you have the facts, argue the facts, When the facts are against you, argue emotion.

  351. Karen, perhaps those like my son in law could’ve kept his manufacturing here in the states, granted he would have to pay the Hmongs he hired a bit more than the Chinese workers, in his factories in China. He and my daughter wouldn’t be able to take two trips to Europe in a year, or pay cash for a $750,000 vacation home, but he could have the satisfaction of knowing he was contributing to the health of the nation he is a citizen of. It would be sort of patriotic even.

  352. Let me explain further: 52 weeks X 40 hours = 2,080. Every $1/hour increase in pay correlates to a $2,080 cost per employee. If you bump up minimum wage, everyone needs to have a raise of the same amount, or it’s not fair. Because then you would have people who already earned a raise now making minimum wage, and so on. The federal minimum wage is $7.25/hour. Increasing it to $10 costs $5,720 per employee.

  353. Annie:

    A global work force presents a difficult problem. I buy American whenever I can afford it, such as with toys. Items made with cheap foreign labor typically cost less but have lower quality. In some markets, the quality of American-made goods is sought after. But not in other markets. American-made solar panel manufacturing companies routinely go out of business because they cannot compete with foreign-made.

    When I looked at American-made cribs, they were outrageously expensive. The expense was significant. A great many families simply cannot afford American-made children’s furniture.

    I would love for manufacturing to come back home to the US. But to be honest, I’m not sure how we could do it unless we imposed tariffs on imports to drive their costs up enough that domestic products can be competitive.

  354. Annie – if the $750k vacation home is in the USA, then a lot of people profited from their purchase. If not, then people in the country where it is located profited from its purchase. Would you rather he hid it in an account in the Caymans?

  355. And there are other, legitimate concerns about cheap foreign labor. We often hear about the plight of workers in Chinese labor camps. Fair Trade tries to address worker exploitation, but it comes at Whole Foods prices.

    There are real concerns with a global labor force.

    I try to buy local or Fair Trade when I can, but I have to be honest with the fact that I can look around my house right now and spot a great many things made overseas. The mug I’m drinking out of right now is stamped “Made in China.”

  356. Thank you very much, Elaine. I went from a season long slump to a hitting streak. Earlier today I offered $10. I will honor that. The easiest way would be to give $10 to a charity of your choice. You name it!

  357. Annie – is your problem with your brother-in-law that he’s a bad person? Or is it that he enjoys and is proud of his success? Is your only problem that his products are made in China? Does he not inspect the factories there? How much money would he lose if he made his products here but sold them for the same price as the foreign-made ones? Would he make anything at all or lose money?

    I’ve known business people who thrive on the challenge of growing a successful business.

  358. Remember that if we increase minimum wage, and hence everyone’s wage to make it fair, the cost of manufacturing goods in America just went up.

  359. I’m not sure how the cost of gasoline or rent is supposed to figure into these minimum wages jobs…. You think you could live off of that amount?

  360. Karen, it’s my son in law and I have no problem with him personally. I love him dearly as well as my daughter, hey have provided me with three wonderful grandchildren. I’m disappointed in him and my daughter’s lack of social responsibility toward their own country and it’s citizens to pursue great wealth on the backs of cheap laborers and at the harm it does to the economy of this country to offshore so much industry and manufacturing. As I stated, wealth is great. Great wealth is unnecessary when the pursuit of it harms others. I know it’s old and worn out but I still believe in a social conscience. I know that doesn’t fit with the rugged individual model of libertarians, whom I consider selfish. Go figure I’m a liberal whose politics actually matches my personal philosophy.

  361. AY – for a year I lived on a minimum wage job, then I got a raise, then they raised to minimum wage to match my raise. I did not get a new raise for 3 months, back at minimum wage again.

  362. Annie – I am unsure about how your son-in-law’s wealth harms others. It seems he is allowing others to purchase goods at a lower cost. That sounds positive to me.

  363. KarenS, This “income inequality” meme of Dem politicians hits on one of the seven deadly sins, envy. This is a destructive, cynical, political manipulation. If it succeeds, we are screwed. When I see someone work hard and be successful I’m happy for them, even if I don’t particularly like them. Not everyone has that positive mindset. I made my living because of the seven deadly sins, envy being one of the biggest destroyers of lives.

  364. Envy? Such utter nonsense. I’m happy for my daughter and son in law and grandchildren. I would be even happier if their wealth was made here in the States. Some folks who have much less wealth than my children see themselves as on the same level as m wealthy children, they don’t have the self awareness to know that they would be rejected in that social circle UNLESS they were related, such as a mother and mother in law for instance.

  365. I once asked my son in law what would happen if there were so much unemployment and people became so poor they could no longer afford the cheap goods he manufactures in China and sells at Walmart. He answered, “Well then I’d be screwed”.

  366. Although not one of the Seven Deadly Sims, being judgmental is a cousin of Pride, which is a deadly sin. Pride is a double edged sword, it can be positive and destructive. We have all seen it’s double edged dynamic in people. We’re all human and flawed. We’re all sinners.

  367. Some average wage earners actually even became jealous of those other wage earners who were union represented, because they may have earned a bit more money and had better benefits. Such jealousy among the working class is disgusting.

  368. Annie:

    You should be proud of having a social conscience. We all should think about how our actions affect others.

    Could you answer my question on whether making his products in America is an option at the price he sells them? Could he conceivably make them here and keep the price the same? If so, I hope he considers it.

  369. Annie:

    You say that you are happy that your daughter and her husband are wealthy. But you also said if they made their products here “He and my daughter wouldn’t be able to take two trips to Europe in a year, or pay cash for a $750,000 vacation home, but he could have the satisfaction of knowing he was contributing to the health of the nation he is a citizen of.”

    So, it sounds like you are not pleased that they live a luxurious lifestyle, and that such excess is perhaps shameful or wrong in some way.

    I agree with you that it’s better to keep jobs here if possible. But remember that there are some markets for which American made just can’t compete.

  370. Karen,
    Yes of course it’s an option. He would make less profit, yes indeed he would, but he and my grandchildren and my daughter would STILL have a very comfortable lifestyle.

  371. Karen – I have to agree with your take on Annie and her daughter and her husband. Somehow she has stigmatized them as not patriotic, not contributing to their country, etc.
    I have a former student whose mother was a crack addict, maybe still is. She and her husband just moved into their new $750k house in Washington. I am not the least bit jealous, I am happy as a clam she, her husband and her kids are doing well. I keep up with her, and other students, on Facebook.

  372. Annie,

    It seems one or more has cast the line…. Some trawling others baiting…. Be wise in answering….

  373. Paul,
    I won’t give my son in law, or even my own daughter a pass on what is wrong, just because I love them. It’s because I love them I would like to see them do what was is right. They understand this and seem to love me back, go figure. People can disagree on fundamental issues and still love one another.

  374. My wise and patient mother would often say to us kids when appropriate, “Judge not lest ye be judged.”

  375. Nick Spinelli

    My wise and patient mother would often say to us kids when appropriate, “Judge not lest ye be judged.”
    ===============
    Which means “condemn not” because that is bad judgment.

    Splains a lot Nick, splains a lot.

    You need to understand what yo momma is sayin’, even if you don’t know what she is sayin’ … capice?

  376. We are all sinners. But as a libertarian, it is a live and let live philosophy, the antithesis of progressives, the most judgmental people out there.

  377. Elaine,

    You’re getting moved to to the head of the list for dispairing and causing one unnamed individual stress and grief…… You may get reported and have your post deleted…. You know that’s the risk…right…

  378. Karen,
    Now that I am back, I would like to respond that we can compete in any field if the tariffs for our competitors are enough to level the playing field.

  379. Tariffs are certainly an option. Some companies were delighted at a global economy because of the cheap labor force. Others thought it would be a means to finally get some income into poor villages. But that fact remains that it spelled the end of most American manufacturing.

  380. Raff,

    What lots of folks don’t realize is that tariffs paid for the operation of the entire US government operation…. Hmmmm I wonder…. If customs should go back to just collections……

  381. Dredd – what ever in the world are you referring to. I am going to take a wild guess and say that there is not one person commenting on this thread who is a virgin.

  382. Annie – I think if you really hold to your principles you should not visit them or have them visit you. They can ship the grandchildren by airplane.

  383. AY – the Sgt Major is correct in what he is saying. If you read the entire article he is not the only one, the service chiefs are making the same recommendations. He does not want to become a healthcare provider.

  384. Paul…a lesson in loving one’s family, love is unconditional. And my daughter and son in law live ten minutes away from me, no need for an airplane ride.

  385. I lived 10 minutes from my grandmother and they cut me and my sibling off from contact with her for 5 years. For some it is conditional.

  386. AY,
    You are right that tariffs were our sole income as a country for a long time. Now, I just want tariffs to even the playing field. With a level playing field we can compete with anyone. The free trade deals have to go along with corporate welfare and tax benefits to moving jobs overseas.

  387. Annie – I’m so glad your family has unconditional love for each other. It is a gift to cherish. No party “is better” at loving their families.

    Paul – I’m sorry about your grandmother. That must have hurt. It’s true that not every family is perfect, or how we wish them to be.

  388. The only negative I have heard about tariffs is that they can lead to trade wars, where other countries impose their own tariffs on our exported goods. But my position is to start taking care of our own first. I am unfamiliar with the extent of our exports, and how great an effect it would have if our exports decreased.

    http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tariff.asp

  389. Different strokes for different folks. At least that is what they say here in the nursing home. But in terms of nations that has some provenance. In Germany today they should continue to outlaw the swastika and the Nazi flag. Why? Because there is a German hate noodle in there that needs to be contained. The Confederate Flag was adopted by the Ku Klux Klan as one of its primary symbols. The White Citizens Councils of various places in the South could not be at home without it. Many in the South will say that the Civil War was not about slavery. They mimic the phrase or rant: StatesRights! That is one word with an exclamation point at all times. This thing has been spawned along by the RepubliCon Party since the adoption of the Southern Strategy. The goal was successful. The white bigots were swayed away from the Democratic Party to the former Party of Lincoln. Turnabout is fair play. Google Search: The Southern Strategy. The Confederate Flag is part and parcel of it.

    Here we have a private Catholic School. They can rightfully tell the students not to wear the Klan Hood, wear the Confederate Flag, or the Nazi emblems for that matter. If the kids had spit on the cross there would not be this debate. If someone bearing the Confederate Flag merely states that its his “heritage” then look up his heritage to see if his ancestors came over to Georgia as convicts to serve time in the penal colony.

  390. Al Zheimer, Has anyone castigated you for such a non PC moniker? If so, let me know. I do counter surveillance on the PC Police. I got you back, bro. And welcome, you are a thoughtful commenter,

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