A Kansas man, Scott Roeder, has been arrested for the murder of Dr. George Tiller (left), 67, who was shot while serving as an usher at his Wichita church Sunday morning. Tiller was one of the few U.S. doctors performing late-term abortions in the country and had previously survived a 1993 shooting outside of his clinic when he was shot in both arms. I discussed this case on this segment of Rachel Maddow Show.
Tiller died Sunday morning in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church, where he served as an usher. Witnesses were able to identify the gunman’s car and give police its license plate.
Tiller practiced for 40 years and was the target of fierce criticism and anger. This anger was fueled by commentators like Bill O’Reilly who repeatedly attacked Tiller by name as guilty of “Nazi stuff” and described him as “Tiller the Baby Killer.” For a description of the Fox statements about Tiller, click here.
He is only the latest victim of such an attack. In 1998, Dr. Barnett Slepian was killed by a sniper in his Amherst, New York, home.
In 1994, Dr. John Bayard Britton and a volunteer escort were shot and killed outside an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida.
In 1993, Dr. David Gunn, was shot to death outside his Pensacola clinic.
Eric Rudolph also attacked clinics, maimed a nurse, and killed an off-duty police in a spasm of violence in 1998. ,
For the full story, click here.
I’m a scuba diver. I would love to go to Cuba because I understand it has some of the best remaining virgin reefs in the Caribbean.
PS Mike A,
Are you going on the Gulf Stream 350 that Mespo is charting to Cuba and golly geeze I do think that Carl is getting stuck with the bill.
Mike A,
I bet that was before the IBM Selectric. I was lucky I had a SelecticIII. I was popular with the girls I tell you.
As you are aware I kinda walked away from life and now I am getting some of it back together, at the present time the deal is NO COURTROOM so it has been nice where I can read, sit, think, walk around, write and get paid well for it.
I have written a number of letter recently and I am amazed that the issues are coming back. It is nicer for me than a lot of other folks I retain what I read and almost certainly what I write. The point I am trying to make is I have had settlements after the first letter. Just kind of get it out there and then wring up in with the last two or three sentences. So I think I know how you recall things.
One in particular, I merely inquired as to what part of a Federal Judgment they did not understand. “Judgment” for my client. In that Judgment it states, if such and such is not paid by such and such date that the prevailing party may apply to this court for a turnover order or a writ of execution. So I am going for the writ and explained nicely to other attorney that is by the way representing anther attorney to pay. She stated that she needs to get her clients approval. Well ok, a writ for money is a garnishment, unlike cabbage or a slice of orange. I merely stated go ahead, the Marshal will explain what is exempt and not. No reason to argue.
I will say it again your post is and was artful.
AY, thanks for your gracious words, but I have to confess that I have a slight advantage. The district court decision in Roe v. Wade came out while I was in law school and I wrote a case note on the decision for the law review. I still have the research after all these years, so I wasn’t just speaking off the cuff.
mespo, as usual, you and I had the same reaction about Billo’s role in this violent outcome. He and Fox may as well have put a bullseye on Dr. Tiller’s back by repeatedly broadcasting his name in the contexts of their personally biased interpretation of what this legally practicing physician agreed to do in caring for his patients.
In the last couple of days I have meandered across a few gems in the diamond ruff after watching the HBO film ‘Recount’ with Kevin Spacey starring as, ‘Ron Klain’, former chief of staff to vice president Al Gore and one of the lead attorneys who challenged the voting results in Florida.
Not surprisingly, there was stuff going on most of us were not aware of, in part because it wasn’t reported, and, of course, that got me fired up all over again. I stayed up very late watching the 2000 presidential elections results. Just as surely as I remember where I was when Kennedy was shot or when the first, and then the second, planes hit the WTC Towers on 9/11/2001, I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing.
These two Scalia gems appear relevant under a few of JT’s recent posts.
“God assumed from the beginning that the wise of the world would view Christians as fools … and He has not been disappointed.”
This insight was voiced by Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, a staunch Catholic, while addressing a Knights of Columbus gathering in 2005.
Scalia again:
“If I have brought any message today, it is this: Have the courage to have your wisdom regarded as stupidity. Be fools for Christ. And have the courage to suffer the contempt of the sophisticated world.”
I’ve decided, he’s channeling Columbus, ‘The Great Admiral of the Ocean Seas’. When circumnavigating the trade winds he was right even though still pretty wrong by most other accounts.
Good thing he’s not driving a ladder truck! In that situation, you kinda want somebody who knows where their going
Mike A.,
Well said and remind me never, evah get into a pissing match with you and words. Wow, I am deeply impressed.
Jim Byrne, your vituperation should probably have been directed at me rather than at Domino because I first used the KKK analogy in an earlier post on this thread commenting on Bill O’Reilly’s penchant for mindless appeals to vigilantism. But, to get to your questions:
1. When does human life begin? I don’t know and neither do you. You assert a biological definition in support of your position that Dr. Tiller was a murderer. Others assert a religious definition in support of the same conclusion. In each instance the reliance is ill-placed because the inquiry is improperly framed. The question is when life should be given legal recognition. In addition to biological and theological views, some writers have proposed that a fetus should receive legal recognition at the time of viability. Some writers have suggested that the law should equate the beginning of human life with the transmission of the unique genetic code to the conceptus. And, contrary to your views, there are scientists who argue that a zygote represents only “potential” human life. As of today we have not reached a consensus in this country on the question. Instead, we preach to each other in different languages drawn from different ideologies and disciplines, and each side then expresses amazement at the intransigence of the other.
2. Was abortion illegal before Roe v. Wade? It depends. At common law, abortions performed prior to “quickening” (i.e., evidence of fetal movement in the womb) were not subject to any criminal sanctions. The states gradually adopted varying statutory prohibitions. Most prohibited abortions beyond the first trimester except in the case of rape, incest or endangerment to the life of the mother. Some statutes listed rape as the sole exception to the prohibition. Prior to the decision in Roe v. Wade, a number of statutes had been declared unconstitutional and many state laws were undergoing substantial revision.
The decision in Roe created a legal quagmire because it was predicated upon a right of privacy, without any delineation of the scope of that right and without an analysis of the impact of an already established body of state law recognizing fetal rights in a number of legal contexts. Over the years the debate has become more complicated due to advances in biology and medicine, and more divisive for reasons already mentioned.
It is absolutely essential that we reach agreement as a society on the legal definition of human life. That definition will have a profound impact on the law. For example, if the law adopts your biological definition, does that entirely eliminate the mother’s right of privacy as to the fetus? Will statutes that permit abortion in cases of rape or incest be constitutional? After all, why should the right to life be conditioned upon whether its commencement resulted from rape or incest? If a pregnant woman requires surgery that creates an unreasonable risk of death or permanent injury to the fetus, should the fetus have standing to sue to stop the surgery? Should a fetus have the right to legally compel a woman to undergo a procedure medically recommended to assure the fetus’ safe delivery (e.g., a caesarean section)? When does the mother’s right to life trump that of the fetus? Should it ever? When do medical decisions affecting both the mother and the fetus warrant intervention and advocacy on behalf of the fetus? I don’t even pretend to have answers to these questions.
3. In my opinion, the abortion debate has absolutely no bearing on the murder of Dr. Tiller. Civil disobedience to a law one perceives as unjust can be an act of courage. The killing of a person who has acted lawfully is an act of terrorism. Anyone who doesn’t understand the distinction is hardly competent to lecture others on issues of law and morality.
Matthew N 1, June 1, 2009 at 5:15 pm
I clicked on this solely to prove to myself that even here there would be someone arguing that this murder was justified and “morally” right. I’ve reconfirmed my cynicism for at least another day.
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Well not that I agree with them at all, but I will gladly support their right to disagree with me as I expect them to agree to disagree with me. That’s what this list/blawg is all about. But then again we do have some that disagree with it just for the hell of it to get you to prove what you say.
I clicked on this solely to prove to myself that even here there would be someone arguing that this murder was justified and “morally” right. I’ve reconfirmed my cynicism for at least another day.
Jim,
In retrospect, forget the first one, I just wanted you to admit that “this is what I believe” rather than “This is a fact.” I’m pretty sure that won’t happen.
So let’s just boil it down to what I really want to know: How do defend vigilante justice?
Jim:
Feminist support and advocate for the rights of women.
Why is that horrible or remotely negative? Is your expectation of women to be completely subimissive to men with no ability to exercise personal beliefs? You must believe that women have smaller brain than men?
“The unborn child..as a zygote…is a human life.”
NOT!!!
excuse me “…paper morally equivalent with killing…”
Jim,
O.k. I’m willing to listen to your claims. Prove a human zygote is a human. By the way, religious arguments don’t work, and I’d prefer that your cite your sources. Go!
Once you get that far, I want you explain who’s life was in emanate danger from Dr. Tiller at the time he was shot.
Next, I’d love to hear how you justify calling the signing of a piece of paper with killing another human being.
I don’t know why you are calling me “resident feminist” when the poem on my page is criticizing feminism for not representing my interests and I haven’t made any statement about my stance on the abortion issue one way or another.
But, if you mean to say I’m a “feminist” simply because I don’t resort to murdering people who threaten my beliefs — then okay, fine.
Gyges… Sorry. It really irritates me whan people (like Domino) paint with such a ridiculously broad brush.
To compare those who take a stand for the life of the unborn with the demonstrated ignorance of the KKK is a statement deserving of the most vituperous response.
The unborn child..as a zygote…is a human life. The DNA is human..and scientifically proven to be. In addition, the zygote meets the criteria of biological life. As such, abortion is clearly a determination of the value of one life in relation to the value of another life.
Why is this important and relevant to the killing of Tiller? -If the person that killed Tiller did so to protect the life of another; it may be morally justified.
Not everything that is moral is also legal.
Breaking the law to do the right thing???? Maybe we should talk to Samuel Chase -He signed the Declaration of Independence (an act of treason) and was a future Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court.
More insight of the doctor:
http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5554#more-40504
Jim,
Also, why does any of that matter to this case?
Jim,
While I can’t answer for Domino, to me the answers are: Depends on how far along the pregnancy is; No, (I don’t think her comparison is accurate either though); Does it matter? Being a witch has been a crime, helping a run away slave has been a crime, etc. (just because something has been criminal in the past doesn’t mean it should be criminal).
Oh goody! Our resident feminist has weighed in with a profound and original conclusion.
Domino,
Why don’t you tell us? -Is the unborn child, whose life is terminated during an abortion, a human life?
Isn’t it you, who has made a determination that the life of one is more valuable than the life of the other; just like the KKK?
Was abortion a crime before Roe v. Wade? Did the law books consider abortion to be a crime? When did abortion become a crime?