New York City health officials are investigating the death of a baby boy who died of herpes after a circumcision by Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer. Fischer carries the herpes virus and is believed to have infected two other infants while serving as a mohel. Under the Orthodox practice followed by Fischer, he actually uses his mouth to suck the blood from the infant’s penis when he cuts the foreskin.
Infants are particularly susceptible to the virus given their reduced immunity systems. Within ten days of the circumcision, one of twin boys died from the virus and another was infected.
The Book of Genesis stipulates circumcision as a defining mark for the descendants of Abraham: “Throughout all generations, every male shall be circumcised when he is eight days old…This shall be my covenant in your flesh, an eternal covenant. The uncircumcised male whose foreskin has not been circumcised, shall have his soul cut off from his people; he has broken my Covenant.” (Genesis 17:1-14)
Metzitzah b’peh (“suction by mouth”) is rarely used outside of the Haredi and Hasidic communities. Under this practice, the mohel spits the blood into a receptacle provided. While most mohelim rinse their mouths out with alcohol to sanitize them, alcohol may not kill the herpes virus.
This will make for some novel criminal and tort litigation. It is difficult to see how this shocking practice can be allowed as a public health matter. As a matter of torts, the families can clearly sue this rabbi for negligence with punitive damage potential. Indeed, I believe that there could would be a strong case for battery. The question will be reckless homicide and other criminal charges. Presumably, this rabbi knew he was a carrier and yet proceeded to use his mouth rather than the more common suction device.
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GWL,
No you did not read them or you wouldn’t have said what you did. You seem very threatened by almost anything I write. I plan to ignore your posts from now on and think that it would be a good idea for you to ignore mine as well.
jill writes: Would you please read my post before you go off the deep end?
jeez jill. I did read your post — all of it.
you should lighten up.
Domino is a woman with a military work history, if I recall
– a ‘WAC’, perhaps…? Dunno.
GWL,
Would you please read my post before you go off the deep end?
Jill asks; So what about leaving circumcision until a man is an adult?
you are kidding right?
Jill, honey, go find a man, any man will do, ask him. I’ll wait here.
(me…waiting….dee dee dee … still waiting)
okay then. what did he say? sure, Jill. let me schedule that circumcision for next week? I don’t think so.
the point of Jewish ritual circumcision is that it brings the new born Jewish male into the covenant. I’ve been present at countless bris ceremonies and the most uncomfortable person there isn’t the infant…. it’s the mother. it may seem barbaric to whose who don’t live and grow up with the expectation that their sons will be circumcised just like their fathers and grandfathers and every male in their family. and none of them were damaged by this ritual.
I get it now. Thank you for explaining it- GWlawSchoolMom
swarthmore mom writes: if a non Jew lives in a city where there are Orthodox communities, he or she will get it. I think this Domino person could be involved in a lawsuit involving circumcision. That could be what is feeding the obsession.
me: I don’t think domino is all there. I dont really care what feeds his obsession. it’s unattractive and won’t win him many friends here or elsewhere.
Mike S writes: GWLSM,
A very good point which I agree with, but do you think non-Jews get what the Orthodox “Fence” notion is all about?
me: I know Jews who don’t get the “fence” thing — the fence notion is that newer and more stringent laws have been amplified and applied to protect certain torah laws so that there can be no unintentional slip-up which might cause a law to be broken. what I don’t get is that if a commandment is broken we have a vehicle for repair of that — several in fact…. but adherence to arcane ritual is what separates the ultra observant from whose of us whose appreciation of ritual is more, uh, casual.
what an interesting thread. Serious discussion about the benefits and deleterious effects of circumcision. One never knows what one will learn on this blog, a veritable cornucopia of intellectual stimulation.
Mike S.,
I didn’t know of these risks to adults. Now that I do, that seems like a bad idea. You know I’m an atheist so personally, religious laws of any kind have no intrinsic meaning to me and I would not follow them.
I didn’t mean that people living in larger cities had anything to do with circumcision. I meant that people living in larger cities are more aware of Jewish communities and different practices among them. I married into a non religious Jewish family.
Jill,
That would be barbaric. check out the difficulties of adult male circumcision. Secondly, by Jewish law the male must be circumcised in the eighth day of life.
Swarthmore Mom,
I don’t think whether or not a non-Jew is circumcised has anything at all to do with the Jewish communities, or their size in a given City. By the way all practicing and some non-practicing Jews believe in circumcision. My nephews were circumcised by a mohel and they are not being brought up Jewish.
Bob,
One for the “clean team!” Just kidding people.
Mike S.
For the record, and for whatever it’s worth, I’m circumcised and I like that way.
I’m asking a genuine question and here is my bias behind it: I think a religous practice (not limited to Judaism) that MAY risk physical/mental/spiritual/emotional harm is best left to the decision of an adult who is practicing that religion. When a person is an adult they can decide if this is the religion they wish to follow and if so, they can proceed with the requirements of that religion or be in a position to challenge the necessity of those requirements. So what about leaving circumcision until a man is an adult?
If a non Jew lives in a city where there are Orthodox communities, he or she will get it. I think this Domino person could be involved in a lawsuit involving circumcision. That could be what is feeding the obsession.
“you kinda gotta know something about these communities and their slavish devotion to creating more ritual around ritual to protect the commandments. what seems insane, ridiculous, unnatural, weird, to non Jews is just embarrassing to those of us who have some scope of Jewish belief and practice.”
GWLSM,
A very good point which I agree with, but do you think non-Jews get what the Orthodox “Fence” notion is all about?
“I’ll see your Catholic priest pedophile and raise you an Orthodox Haredi or Hasidic mohel. Srsly.”
Lottakatz,
Do you really think we are dealing with equivalencies here in terms of numbers and or percentages? Are you merely being flippant and if so why do you deny me the same right when I talk about women not complaining about my penis? I have many arguments with Jewish Orthodoxy and I have been open about them on this site. I also have some problems with the Israeli Government and have also expressed them openly. This despite the fact that it brings some seriously anti-Jewish trolls out of the woodwork and in their limited minds supplies them with ammunition for their prejudice.
Lottakatz,
I’m sincerely really not sure about what point you were making in this post:
“Mike S. “Dare I say it but you seem somewhat obsessed with sexual organs. ”
Bob,Esq. “Domino doth protest too much. Perhaps he’s not as happy with his penis as Mike S.”
Ugly territory guys.”
“Bob, don’t open any doors to posts about Mike’s obvious pride in lil’ Mike,”
Now I think that you are implying that I was being sexist in my remarks and by the way I don’t name my body parts and I think that is unfair.
I am dealing with someone who has called a religious practice I believe in barbarous. Who by extension has then called my children barbarous for circumcising my grandson. I haven’t called her names and actually have been quite courteous in my replies, but really Lotta, how does a circumcised male who has liked the fact, respond to someone who proffers “proofs” of serious psychological harm done to circumcised males? Do you really think I’m that shallow that I’m into bragging about my sexual prowess? If you do I’m sorry you read me that way.
My own view is that the male obsession with penises as the be all and end all of sexual satisfaction is incorrect and immature. This is the view also of the majority of sex therapists both female and male. However, the sob story’s of damaged males, anecdotal of course, that Domino provides are to me the tales of people damaged by far more than their loss of foreskin.
Now as for Domino in particular. She/He is obviously obsessed with this topic as illustrated by the copious amount of posts she has written and his/her choice to use what are deemed to be authoritative links to express the points being made. To argue with someone doing that I would have to pick apart every link and argue with that, only to then get more links to then pick apart. In that way Domino controls the discussion. When Gyges and Patty C actually offered their own evidence disputing a few of Domino’s links, there was either no response or curt dismissiveness. Given all that I believe that I’ve actually been rather fair to Domino and I’m sorry you didn’t see it that way.
I’ll see your Catholic priest pedophile and raise you an Orthodox Haredi or Hasidic mohel. Srsly.
Mike,
That was easy: “When it comes to religion it’s always about looking at the other person’s practice and seeing how wrong it is. Sometimes there is merit in that like for instance Fundamentalist sexism. sometimes with people like spirit and domino there is another agenda afoot.”
Domino,
You’d rather preach than converse. Got it. I’ll leave you to it.
Patty C: “T vaginalis is both a sub-preputial and a urethral pathogen.”
Lady-bits are crevice and moisture rich areas that also can trap unwanted and vagrant pathogens but thorough and frequent washing with soap and water is the best defense against harboring (and passing them along) for both sexes.
—
T. vaginalis is actually a type of very easily sexually trasmissable bacterial infection and is treated with Flagyl, which you may have heard of, or Fasigyn. It causes other problems if left untreated.
Plain soap and water are always a good idea, but won’t cover this overgrowth once it has taken over, any more than it would in the case of a yeast infection.