A new Rasmussen poll reveals that 58% of people polled would like to see Flight 253 bombing suspect Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab tortured for information. It is not just an indictment of our values but another byproduct of President Obama’s blocking of any independent investigation and prosecution of torture under the Bush Administration. By protecting Bush officials, Obama is reinforcing their argument that such measures are merely controversial and not crimes.
The poll asked individuals: “Should waterboarding and other aggressive interrogation techniques be used to gain information from the suspected bomber?” The result was 58% yes, to only 30% who said no. I was asked the same question during this segment of The Situation Room.
What is astonishing is that this poll occurred virtually as people were leaving for churches and synagogues to celebrate the holidays. I guess that walking on water thing was just a prelude to waterboarding the Pharisees.
For the full story, click here.
I think Jill is passionate about certain subjects and that her passion is, sometimes, mis-interrupted. It doesn’t do to skim Jill’s posts … they are worth careful reading.
Bdaman? No drunk driving, no drunk dialing, and certainly no drunk
diatribing. (I don’t think diatribe can be used as a verb but it fits the alliteration.)
From mespo’s post:
“The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we have them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society.
It is in vain to say that enlightened statesmen will be able to adjust these clashing interests and render them all subservient to the public good. Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm.” (Federalist 10)
From Buddha:
” Where our systems are breaking is at the junction of democracy and republicanism. It is breaking because those who are supposed to be representing our interests as citizens are now looking out for 1) themselves and 2) their corporate donors – donors which should not be allowed to participate in electoral processes of government (as they are a fiction) any more than animals are allowed to participate. Had the Congress been doing their job? No one would have EVER been tortured nor would have habeas corpus been suspended. Of course, if they were doing their jobs, Cheney and the Board of Exxon would be in prison right now.”
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I reposted these writings because I believe, together, they educate responsibly.
Shortly after the Underwear(a slick way of dehumanizing him) bomber was caught, I happened to see Pat Buchanan on TV loudly recommending that the government withhold the guys burn/pain medication in order to get information from him. I waited for someone on the program to protest Buchanan’s remarks and no one did, so I called MSNBC and protested … then I wrote an email. Then I wrote a note to my Senator and one to the White House. I did what I could to protest the suggestion that torture was “okay” because the individual was an “enemy”.
I wrote to my Senator and the White House because I believe the Professor is correct … “By protecting Bush officials, Obama is reinforcing their argument that such measures are merely controversial and not crimes.” … and, in my own words, said so.
Which is why mespo’s quote from the Federalist … “Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm.” and Buddha’s response, “Had the Congress been doing their job? No one would have EVER been tortured nor would have habeas corpus been suspended.” … responsibly educate us and point to the core of the problem which is “a lack of enlightened statesmen” at the helm of our government. It is our responsibility to correct that.
There is no reason to attack anyone Personally on this site.
Except for Bdaman
Jill and Patty both attacked the GWU mom and she is gone. I read a blog to get different opinions. I know what Jill and bdaman are going to say. They both hate Obama and will not give him credit if he does do something right and they blame him for things that happen over which he has no control. I do not think they can get together and defeat him though. The muslims I know were very strong Obama supporters and as of yet are not displeased with him.
Jill,
There is no reason to attack anyone Personally on this site. I find you most offensive and yet I do not say anything. I know Swartzmoremom and she has had more life experiences that you will never know and or experience based upon what you have stated.
You have a tendency to classify and label people based upon what they write. If I have that same right and I do, I think you are a fundamental sexist without the requisite knowledge to understand what a sexist is. I further think that you are a bigot and I base this upon you clandestine writings on this site.
Rather than say I disagree and go about your business you make it a point to personally attack and then defend your position much like a 2 year old. You rationalize what you want and then damned be anyone else with a contrary opinion to what you state.
I have seen you attack Mike Spindell this last week and did not say anything. You then lunged after Buddha and then back peddled and mousetrapped apologized without any real meaning. I have said this before to Patty C and I will reiterate this point to you. Attack me all you want I have had the worst things happen to me and I have survived, some of my own making and some at the hands of others.
Lets start this new year out correct and bring peace and harmony rather than discord and anarchy. Someone brought up Bill Ayers today, do you think age has mellowed him or he has a new approach for the same issues?
I personally know a priest that baptized my daughter at my home, while his roommate was serving time for Protesting Dow Chemical and the Military Based in East Michigan. Pick your battles and know which ones are really worth fighting.
Do something to convince me and I presume the others that you are not really a Bigot and a Sexists in the same breath.
Glenn Greenwald writes: “political leaders possess an inherent interest in maximizing fear levels, as that is what maximizes their power. For a variety of reasons, nobody aids this process more than our establishment media, motivated by their own interests in ratcheting up fear and Terrorism melodrama as high as possible. The result is a citizenry far more terrorized by our own institutions than foreign Terrorists could ever dream of achieving on their own. For that reason, a risk that is completely dwarfed by numerous others — the risk of death from Islamic Terrorism — dominates our discourse, paralyzes us with fear, leads us to destroy our economic security and eradicate countless lives in more and more foreign wars, and causes us to beg and plead and demand that our political leaders invade more of our privacy, seize more of our freedom, and radically alter the system of government we were supposed to have. The one thing we don’t do is ask whether we ourselves are doing anything to fuel this problem and whether we should stop doing it. As Adams said: fear “renders men in whose breasts it predominates so stupid and miserable.”
Huka
1, January 2, 2010 at 1:40 pm
“If we have good reason to believe the underwear bomber has information that would save numerous lives, waterboard him.
The U.S. Constitution provides protection for U.S. Citizens and visitors. It does not apply to hostile foreign occupants.”
The basic laws of humanity do that. Its called being a human being.
And there are international laws against torture, if you actually need a law to tell you that it is wrong to torture people.
Professor Turely noted that those responding to the polls were on their way to the Church’s and Synagogues. No one picked up on that, but I did. You see there are absolutes in this world. Moral absolutes that do not require laws to understand. And in noting the poll respondents championing of torturing a human being while simultaneously heading off to religious worship, he was drawing a stark and poignant contrast to the polarity of those principles, i.e. presuming to worship in churches which teach humanity while concurrently abandoning their own humanity.
There are absolutes in this world. Things that for normal, sane people just have no question. If you entered an insane asylum and saw a patient sitting in a corner smearing feces on themselves, you’d not try to reason with them. You’d just sort of shake your head and walk away. Because you are aware that any individual needing to be told that smearing fecal matter on themselves is wrong, clearly isn’t capable of comprehending anything you have to say. If he needs to be told, then he cannot be told.
And it is the same with those who can glibly call for the torture of another human being while simultaneously heading off to somewhere to display their piety. If you have to tell a grown adult that torturing another human is wrong, then you cannot tell that grown adult that torturing another human is wrong. You can never tell him as he cannot comprehend the message. He is lacking the tools to do so.
All you can do is shake your head in shame, and walk away.
“we are seeing the really ugly, bare face of the govt.” – Jill
Actually if this poll is correct, we are seeing the really ugly, bare face of ourselves.
Jill wrote: “…we are seeing the really ugly, bare face of the govt. It is why we cannot excuse the loss of our civil liberties and refuse to stay silent.”
I agree and feel that it bears repeating…
Well said, Buddha.
And though they’ve been repeated too often, perhaps, two of my favorite quotes are as follows:
“In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” -George Orwell
“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”
-An excerpt from a letter written in 1755 from the Assembly to the Governor of Pennsylvania sometimes misattributed to Ben Franklin or Thomas Jefferson. (source Wikipedia)
swarthmore mom,
I feel your posts are often condescending towards people who have a different opinion than you do. When you wrote: “anon nurse We have always had harassment in this country. It is obvious you are not a member of minority group or you would not think this is something new. This is not the McCarthy era politically either.” I thought it was unnecessary to put in the part about being a member of minority group.
While I agree with you that we have always had harassment in this country, I’m not certain why that would make harassment t occurring either in the past or the present, acceptable. As to minority groups, one big one under direct attack by our govt. is the Muslim population, of which you are not a member. It therefore might be easier for you to ignore what happens to the Muslim population, if we are to follow your argument’s logic in your post to anon nurse. I submit to you that you may truly be unaware of the level of govt. intrusion on all our lives, especially those who are minorities picked up by ICE and Muslims who loose their civil liberties in ways that those of us who are native born, non-Muslims seldom encounter. I might further add that if you joined a counter-recruitment group, and were really active in it, you might find this govt. to be quite intrusive, even as a native born, non-Muslim person. Those of us who have lived different experiences with this govt. are not in la-la land, we are seeing the really ugly, bare face of the govt. It is why we cannot excuse the loss of our civil liberties and refuse to stay silent.
Its a sad day in America when 58 percent of us aren’t worth saving.
That’s all well and good until you realize that YOU TOO, AMERICAN CITIZEN can be declared an enemy combatant.
Just because some douchebag at DHS wants to sleep with your wife. Never mind that you aren’t a terrorist. Someone in government has decided you are inconvenient to their plans so they’ll ship you off to be tortured. And don’t worry about the truth getting out at trial. You won’t get one. Or you’ll get a show trial.
Don’t think that’s possible? Jose Padilla is an American citizen who was tortured. He was only charged after being held for 3 1/2 years – the detention itself a multiple Constitutional violation. Whether he did anything or not is now irrelevant as he’d walk . . . if Obama wasn’t still violating citizen’s rights in the name of protecting Cheney and his pack of fascist scum. You remember him. The guy who is business partners with the country that DID attack us, Saudi Arabia. The guy whose company stole a palette full of cash and then fled to Dubai to avoid prosecution. With Dick’s blessing and help in fleeing justice.
It also shows your incredible ignorance of the Constitution. Parts of it do apply to EVERYONE. Only some of it is reserved for citizens. The right to be free from torture is one of those parts that apply to everyone, your ignorance notwithstanding. And it’s that type of ignorance that allows EVERYONE’S rights to be abused.
And I’m sure glad you bought up that informant issue.
Because it was one GIANT FAILURE at DHS and CIA and FBI that this butt head could get anywhere NEAR a plane without an agent on him – being groomed or not. He was being groomed BECAUSE HE ASSOCIATED WITH ACTUAL TERRORISTS. Duh. So the fact that he was being groomed is irrelevant other than it highlights how pathetic Napaletano was when she clownishly said “the system worked!” Pollyanna CYA bullshit it “worked”. What happened was a bomb DIDN’T WORK. We got LUCKY. Period. But the “system” didn’t have shit to do with it . . . other than “the system” let a known associate of terrorists on a plane – WITH A BOMB – when CHILDREN unlucky enough to have a name like actual terrorists are hassled by the no-fly list and grandmothers with walkers are subject to strip searches. What it showed is more incompetent morons in government, but it didn’t show the “system worked”.
Any one else care to defend the failure that is the American Federal Government? Any more sage advice from the fascism crowd? Any more CYA horse crap from Napelatano’s office?
Because no one paying attention is buying that for a minute.
If we have good reason to believe the underwear bomber has information that would save numerous lives, waterboard him.
The U.S. Constitution provides protection for U.S. Citizens and visitors. It does not apply to hostile foreign occupants.
“When I mention these rights of an alien, I must be understood of alien friends only, or such whose countries are in peace with ours; for alien-enemies have no rights, no privileges, unless by the king’s special favor, during the time of war.”
(1765) Book I page 356
Our “King” is the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. Constitution grants no rights to “alien-enemies”.
I think he’s the brightest most wonderful person who has come across the starting line and I was introduced to him by a friend who was raising money for him. The friends name is Dr. Khalid al-Mansour, from Texas. He is the principal adviser to one of the worlds richest men. He told me about Obama.
He wrote to me about him. And his introduction was “there is a young man that has applied to Harvard. I know that you have a few friends up there because you used to go up there to speak. Would you please write a letter in support of him?”
Dr. Khalid al-Mansour is the principal adviser to one of the worlds richest men.
I let you figure out who and where he resides.
Everybody is a friend to Saudi Arabia, Obama got a .9999 percent pure gold necklace to prove it.
Bow wow wow yippe yo yippe yea, nuttin but the Dog in meh
Bdaman,
I would gladly suffer in a debate with Bill Ayers than engage in any appearance of rationality with you.
Read what you have posted. Does any of this make sense. I am not a Obama fan, never have never will be. Bill Ayers smart enough to take a stand about something that was paralyzing this country. He did something. Attention is what he wanted and Attention is what he got.
Bush put us in war with the rest of the world to protect Oil Dollars and the American Banker. Now that Haliburton has moved to Saudi Araba what do we need to do about it? Oh yeah, they have a long term contract with the US DOD and CIA to provide support services. Do you have any ideal of who was CEO, President, and a Resident of Montana?
Pictures are worth a thousand words, What Humanitarian Crisis.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/12/muslim-jewish-blood-libel-exposed-starving-palestinians-look-pretty-fat-and-happy.html
Jodie Evans and her terrorist sympathizing group Code Pink have provoked a violent crisis in Egypt over an attempt to deliver ‘humanitarian aid’ to Hamas-run Gaza to mark the one-year anniversary of Israel’s response to repeated provocations by Hamas terrorists. Evans was joined in Cairo by Obama friend Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dorhn, both former terrorists with the Weather Underground.
Members of the Gaza Freedom March are being forcibly detained in hotels around town (Lotus, Liala) as well as violently forced into pens in Tahir Square by Egyptian police and additional security forces. Reports of police brutality are flooding a delegate legal hotline faster than the legal support team can answer the calls. The reports span from women being kicked, beaten to the ground and dragged into pens, at least one confirmed account of broken ribs, and many left bloody.
The press release went on to describe the activists’ purpose for being in Egypt.
The marchers had planned to enter Gaza through Egypt’s Rafah Crossing on Dec. 27, then to join with an estimated 50,000 Palestinian residents to march to Erez Crossing into Israel to peacefully demand an end to the siege. However, the government of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak announced just days before the hundreds of delegates began arriving in Cairo that the march would not be allowed to go forward. It cited ongoing tensions at the border. When marchers demonstrated against the decision, the government cracked down, often using heavily armed riot police to encircle and intimidate the nonviolent marchers.
I am a self proclaimed sufferer of bigotry. I don’t like bigots. So by definition I am guilty of Bigotry.
bigotry – the intolerance and prejudice of a bigot
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn