Rev. Pat Robertson often attributes horrific events to God’s wrath as when he explained that the 9-11 attacks and the Katrina disaster were punishments for our sins. Now, Robertson has proclaimed that the earthquake in Haiti was sent by God to punish Haitians for a “pact with the Devil” made to overthrow the French.
Robertson favors that Old Testament God filled with anger and wrathful impulses. On this occasion, in Robertson’s mind, God wanted to kill over 100,000 people because of something that some of their ancestors allegedly did. Makes perfect sense. Here is what the good Reverend said “happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it”:
You know, Christie, something happened a long time ago in Haiti. And the people might not want to talk about it. They were under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon the third or whatever, and they got together and swore a pact to the Devil. They said, ‘We will serve you if you get us free from the French. True story. And so, the Devil said, Ok, it’s a deal. And they kicked the French out. You know, the Haitians revolted and got themselves free. But ever since they have been cursed by one thing after another — desperately poor. That island of Hispaniola is one island. It’s cut down the middle. On the one side is Haiti on the other is the Dominican Republic. The Dominican Republic is prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, etc. Haiti is in desperate poverty. Same island. They need to have, and we need to pray for them, a great turning to God, that out of this tragedy, I’m optimistic something good may come, but right now we’re helping the suffering people — and the suffering is unimaginable.
He may be taking Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s reference to “Biblical damage” a bit too literally. However, President Obama seem to be offering a rebuttal by promising the Haitians that they “will not be forsaken.”
Native Haitians defeated French colonists in 1804 and declared independence. If only they had stayed virtual slaves under French rule, God would have been pleased and they would have been earthquake free.
This is line in with Robertson’s prior explanations of God’s wrath in terms of killing people in New Orleans and New York as God’s way of “vomiting” us out:
My only question is why we want to spend eternity with God if he is this horrible being filled with rage and wrath who speaks to guys like Pat Robertson? Isn’t God supposed to be better than us? Even my four-year-old does not hope that her classmates are wiped out in earthquakes when she is mad at them. If this were true, God would be in serious need for intense therapy over his anger issues and violent disposition. It is a bit hard to imagine Jesus saying “serve’s em right, Pop, for that stuff that their ancestors did over two hundred years ago.”
By the way, I missed that history lesson about how all of the Haitians swore a pact with the Devil. There are sacrificial and voodoo practices certainly on that island, but I was unaware that the whole revolution was one big Satanic movement.
There is no such “true story” about a nationwide pact with the devil. There were various revolutions by people like Padrejean in 1676 and François Mackandal in 1757. Robertson seems to be referring to Dutty Boukman who helped led the uprising in August 1791. He was a houngan, or Haitian priest, who held a traditional ceremony in which a pig (symbolizing the power of nature) was sacrificed and an oath administered to the fighters to be fearless in battle. However, accounts of his words notably omit Robertson’s alleged pact:
h! Eh! Bomba! Heu! Heu!
Canga, bafio té!
Canga, mouné de lé!
Canga, do ki la!
Canga, do ki la!
Canga, li!We swear to destroy the whites
and all they possess.
Let us die rather than fail
to keep this vow.
Indeed accounts have him referring to God not Satan for some old-fashioned wrathful justice (which would seem to appeal to Robertson:
“The god who created the sun which gives us light, who rouses the waves and rules the storm, though hidden in the clouds, he watches us. He sees all that the white man does. The god of the white man inspires him with crime, but our god calls upon us to do good works. Our god who is good to us orders us to revenge our wrongs. He will direct our arms and aid us. Throw away the symbol of the god of the whites who has so often caused us to weep, and listen to the voice of liberty, which speaks in the hearts of us all.”
For more on this oath, click here.
Of course, even if there was a pact with the Devil, God can really keep a grudge. Over two hundred years later, he kills over one hundred thousand people to teach their long-dead ancestors a lesson. I find that hard to believe, though I am warming to the idea of God sending Pat Robertson to punish us for our sins.
“silly neoconservative nonsensical”
“silly charlatans”
Yesterday I asked if you were a scientist. You asked why I asked but never really answered the question. If this is an area that is outside of your expertise, you must have arrived at your conclusion based on your reliance on the expert(s) of your choice. You put your FAITH in someone else. You BELIEVE and consider others who do not believe to be “silly”. I won’t go into “neoconservative” because that is just a silly political tool.”
Duh, I never answered because the question is erroneous. Are YOU a scientist? Do you study global warming for a living? I highly doubt it.
Thus you, like me, must rely on the consensus of the experts on the matter. Just like neither you nor me is a aviation engineer, yet we still trust them to build aircraft that we fly in. Just like neither of us are dentists so we must rely on the guy with the doctorate to operate on our teeth.
Obviously one does not have to be a watchmaker, to rely on a watch. We have experts who do that for us and we trust them because that’s what they’re trained to do.
Thus with global warming, you, I and the rest of the population must rely on the information provided to us by scientists trained in the field.
So when the bulk of the scientific community comes out and says to me the earth is round, I don’t need a partisan political opportunist to counter their information for me. When NASA says something is something, then I don’t need to go to the RNC to explain it for me. The jury’s in.
“silly neoconservative nonsensical”
“silly charlatans”
Yesterday I asked if you were a scientist. You asked why I asked but never really answered the question. If this is an area that is outside of your expertise, you must have arrived at your conclusion based on your reliance on the expert(s) of your choice. You put your FAITH in someone else. You BELIEVE and consider others who do not believe to be “silly”. I won’t go into “neoconservative” because that is just a silly political tool.
This isn’t as much about global warming as it is about FAITH and BELIEF. When we don’t have the time or knowledge to do our own investigation we rely on that of others. Much like organized religion. To call someone “silly” because they disagree, you must also provide conclusive evidence that you have personally gathered.
What was the CO2 content of our atmosphere 150 years ago? What is it today? Did you measure it 150 years ago? Did you even measure it today?
The only thing I find silly is for you to require me to accept your faith as fact.
I’m not trying to be snarky. I just want to point out that facts, much like reality, are based on personal acceptance.
Wow Mike, thanks. I appreciate your kind words. And I’m glad someone else sees what these men really are. Not the prophets or priests they “play on TV”. But slicksters. Snake oil salesman who push hate and fear because for some reason in certain geographic locations, that stuff sells.
I think a clean example of this besides Pat Robertson would be the Rev Ted Haggard, who’s mega church based its cornerstone on the hatred of gay and lesbian people. Think about it. Jesus never mentioned the sin once during his 3 year ministry. Yet Haggard built a church on teaching people to hate these people.
Yet does anyone think for a moment that Haggard really believed what he was saying on Sunday, when on Monday he was out sleeping with male hookers and snorting their drugs? He did it for the money. He sold what sold easy. If Christ’s message of peace really sold with the masses then I’m sure he’d have been teaching that. But he found that the majority of the people who came to his church were motivated by other emotions. Hate. Fear. Spite. Prejudice. So that’s what he sold.
Pat Robertson does the same thing. Gets old ladies all worked up that the gays are going to get them, and that God punishes people constantly with pain, suffering and death, (like the Haiti earthquake) and people respond. A certain demograph is motivated by such nonsense and that’s why Robertson says the things he does. Of course Jesus warned of these false prophets which he indicated would be rampant in the future. And he had some choice words for the “Pat Robertson’s” of his day;
– Matt 23:15 “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
And …
– Matt 23:27 ” Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.”
Looks like Jesus had his own Ted Haggards, Pat Robertson’s, Jerry Falwell’s, Jim Bakers, and the rest. It never fails to amaze me how many people would rather listen to these men preach hate rather than simply reading the words of the man they profess to follow.
“Knowledge of gospels? incredible and outstanding.
Global Warming and Climate Change? not so much.
Question, why is Greenland called Greenland when 80% is white.” -bdaman
I think a better question would be why you’re asking me questions that are silly neoconservative nonsensical talking points?
First of all, Greenland doesn’t not mean the land is Green. The name comes from “Grønland” which means “Land of the People”. So you might want to do a little research before pushing out the anti-global warming talking points someone fed you.
And of course lets not forget the irony that apparently escapes you of mentioning Greenland in regards to global warming. Much of Greenlands ice is melting, and if this happens since its bedrock is an ice sheet, would put much of the Island under water.
It makes no sense in this day and age to listen to silly charlatans who are backed by big oil to deny a science that if the public embraces, would lead to their eventual extinction (unless they learn to adapt like T Boone Pickens). You really should stop listening to partisan politics for a change and try a little science. I’d start with NASA. You know, the guys who walked on the Moon. If you have a problem trusting NASA then try loosening the tin foil a bit.
“Jesus’ words appear in the 4 Gospels and not in any other portion of the canonized Bible. Thus what John The Revelator said is not particularly binding in any way as far as being a Christian.’
30%’er,
I totally agree with that but may not have been clear in exposition. In fact that is why I have enjoyed the bulk of what you’ve written because this truth is lost on so many. As a non-Christian, nevertheless familiar with Christian writing and thought, I have always been puzzled by how the voice of Jesus in the Gospels has almost been obliterated by many Christian religious leaders (i.e. Robertson)in favor of a belief that isn’t even consonant with the non Gospel part of the Christian Canon. My surmise therefore is that the truth of most prophets and their philosophy gets subsumed by those seeking power and motivated by greed.
In any event you are far ahead on points, but most importantly you are providing educable information as you take on all comers. My butting in further would not replace your erudition, but I just wanted you to know that so far this regular supports your effort and enjoys your information.
Seems like everyone is coming out of the wood work:
“In an exclusive email to The Daily Beast, Jean-Claude Duvalier, who fled Haiti for France in 1986, offered quake victims comfort and an $8 million pledge of support. ”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-01-15/baby-doc-speaks/?cid=hp:mainpromo1
Knowledge of gospels? incredible and outstanding.
Global Warming and Climate Change? not so much.
Question, why is Greenland called Greenland when 80% is white.
“I was born and raised a Catholic. I received a Catholic education all the way thru 12th grade. It wasn’t until I was willing to do some serious questioning that I decided that the words could not be supported. I believe that we have a being know as our Creator, but anything beyond that is subject to question.” – Duh
I can appreciate your comment. I like you turned from the faith of my parents. Most people turn from the faith of their parents. Its pretty common. But have you ever heard the expression “don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater”? Just because of the obvious flaws of the Catholic church doesn’t mean that the gospels are wrong. The words of Christ still hold true for me regardless of how rotten the churches become. Do unto others, let him without sin cast the first stone, turn the other cheek, these lessons are timeless.
Regardless of whether one believes Christ was divine his words still ring true and have for 2000 years. I’d much rather be friends with someone who doesn’t believe in Christ as divine yet embraces his message within their own life, than to be with a pious hypocrite who claims to believe in him but doesn’t practice or preach his message. Remember what the apostle James said.
– James 2:19 “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble”
“Did you ever ask yourself; if it is so important for us to believe in God, why doesn’t Jesus appear during a football game, where his words and image could be transmitted all over the world?” Duh
Well think about what you’re saying for a moment. Faith and belief indicate not knowing. If you know something you don’t need faith and you don’t need belief. I know that if I put down this keyboard right now and walk out my balcony window, that I’ll fall to the ground and injure myself. I don’t need faith or belief for that.
Thus if Jesus appeared during a football game where his words and image could be transmitted all over the world, then he would have no more “believers”. He’d have “knowers”. Not believers.
“30%er,
Most of the scientific community don’t possess the knowledge to challenge what has been presented. Only a limited number of them are experts in the field. The fact that a growing number are questioning the findings is a good indicator that they are questionable.” – Duh
That’s a complete fabrication. There is no growing number of scientists questioning the findings. The only ones pushing such nonsense are the far right neoconservative loons.
You don’t have to be a scientist to understand the process of heat from the sun being trapped by our atmosphere. That’s why the moon is either too cold or too hot for life. No atmosphere. Same with Mars which has atmosphere but not one capable of retaining heat. Thus the planets cool and get hot but never retain an even heat. Our earth however is able to retain heat thanks to our atmosphere. It traps heat from the sun and releases it gradually into space, thus the planets temperatures remain temperate enough to sustain life. That’s 3rd grade science.
Thus it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if that blanket of atmosphere becomes too dense then heat won’t escape the atmosphere and hence the planet won’t cool. And it doesn’t take a scientist to figure out that if you can’t breath it, pumping it into the air we breath 24 hours a day, 7 days a week probably isn’t too smart either.
This countries sucked for far too long on the oil teat. Our kids are dying over it in foreign countries to satisfy a bunch of right wing parasites living off the public dole in a public shelter we call Congress. This isn’t the America I grew up in. This “can’t do” cling to the past nonsense. This country was built over the years by innovation and radical thinkers. Not this new neoconservative nonsense that worships ignorance over knowledge and retardation rather than innovation.
This country needs a few new Thomas Alva Edison’s right now. A couple of Orville and Wilbur Wrights. And definitely a Ben Franklin or two.
I wasn’t trying to get you off topic but you brought the subject up in your discussion. It no longer is a consensus, the tide has turned. Bdaman
I didn’t bring up the subject, I used it as a comparison example.
And just because you say there’s not a consensus doesn’t change the fact that every leading scientific group in the world says there is. Even NASA, the only organization in the world to ever place a living human being on a foreign planet says there is so if you’re trying to seed the notion that somethings changed don’t bother. I have little time for neoconservative nonsense.
bdaman has a visitor?
Say hello to Mr. Cheney for us. :>)
30%er,
Most of the scientific community don’t possess the knowledge to challenge what has been presented. Only a limited number of them are experts in the field. The fact that a growing number are questioning the findings is a good indicator that they are questionable.
For the most part, people just go with the flow. If a source that they consider to be reliable tells them something, they are not likely to challenge it.
Did Jesus, the Son of God, walk the earth? Maybe. Did somebody named Jesus walk the earth, and the New Testament is directly related to his life? There’s a greater chance of that being reliable. Can I get a bunch of scholars to believe it based on their interpretation of data? I’m sure I could.
Acceptance without verification is faith. You can choose to have faith in what you’re told, or not. That’s a personal choice.
Did you ever ask yourself; if it is so important for us to believe in God, why doesn’t Jesus appear during a football game, where his words and image could be transmitted all over the world? Something tells me, God won’t be appearing too much in the “cell phone camera” age. God has likely seen the trouble it has caused for police officers.
I was born and raised a Catholic. I received a Catholic education all the way thru 12th grade. It wasn’t until I was willing to do some serious questioning that I decided that the words could not be supported. I believe that we have a being know as our Creator, but anything beyond that is subject to question.
I wasn’t trying to get you off topic but you brought the subject up in your discussion. It no longer is a consensus, the tide has turned. We can get into that discussion at a later time. Anyone here will tell you that is a subject that I like and would be happy to discuss at a moments notice, however this discussion is quite more interesting because I don’t know enough about it.
I thank you for taking the time to spread the word. Please continue. I may not comment but I have read everyone of your post. Also I will be leaving for the airport shortly for an arrival so if a question is asked of me I may not respond until tomorrow. Again many thanks.
“30%er,
The reason I was asking was to be able to demonstrate that just because someone doesn’t question something that does not mean that they concur with the findings. Most people just accept the published report. They don’t have the time or the inclination to do the research, evaluate the data, and arrive at their own conclusions. To consider them to be in agreement is unfounded.”
Thank you for rephrasing that. I see what you’re trying to say.
I do disagree with you however. You are misrepresenting the consensus I presented as being a “lay” consensus when in fact I made it clear it was scientific and scholarly consensus I was speaking about. Just as the overwhelming majority of the scientific community has collectively acknowledged the science of global warming, so too has the overwhelming consensus of the scholarly community acknowledged the existence of the historical Jesus.
Here’s what I wrote.
-“Much like the Global Warming deniers in the scientific community they merely represent a handful of the overall scholarly community. Both believeing and non believing scholars alike unamiously have laid to rest the “mythers” as they’re known and their arguments. The fact is we know more about Jesus of Nazerth (except for perhaps Saul of Tarsus) than any other preacher or religious leader of the time.” – ME
Responding to my statements on the overwhelming consensus of the “scientific” community and the “scholarly” community by addressing it as if I had been talking about the average citizen is misleading as to my statements. I was clear on the consensus of the scientific community and the scholarly community. Not the lay person.
I do agree however with you that most Christians don’t seem to know much about their own religion. But that’s another topic.
30%er,
The reason I was asking was to be able to demonstrate that just because someone doesn’t question something that does not mean that they concur with the findings. Most people just accept the published report. They don’t have the time or the inclination to do the research, evaluate the data, and arrive at their own conclusions. To consider them to be in agreement is unfounded.
Much the same can be said about religion. How many Christians have really questioned the historical accuracy of the bible? Most people 95+% don’t ever consider questioning what they are taught to believe.
“Ah But 30%er,
St Germain was a great alchemist. He could turn base metals ubto gold. Water into wine as well. Why haven’t you heard of him….” -Anon Yours
Who said I haven’t heard of St Germain? You’re not making any sense. I’m not sure what the points are here but from now on I’m only responding to coherent questions that make sense.
“I don’t want you to get off topic but” – Bdaman
Then don’t try to get me off topic. I’m not discussing global warming. That’s for another time, another thread.
Ah But 30%er,
St Germain was a great alchemist. He could turn base metals ubto gold. Water into wine as well. Why haven’t you heard of him….
I don’t want you to get off topic but the tide has changed on a small handful of scientists who call Global Warming a myth.
The evidence is clear on the fabrication of data and manipulation of others. Yes the globe has warmed and it’s cooled and it’s warmed and it is again cooling. We’ve been able to learn more about jesus over 2000 years. The idea of Global Warming, not that much.