ABC has a truly bizarre and disturbing story. Brian Ross reports that a military contractor has encoded hidden New Testament Bible passages on high-powered rifle sites. The contractor is Trijicon, which apparently confirmed the practice.
The biblical references appear as, in one case, 2COR4:6 — an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament, which reads: “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
The company received $660 million under a contract to supply 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps. It has other contracts with the Army.
U.S. regulations prohibits proselytizing of any religion. Moreover, such additions to military equipment should violate the contract which presumably did not ask for biblical citations with gun sights.
The use of biblical citations will only reaffirm the view of many that the U.S. went into Iraq and Afghanistan on a “crusade.” This view was magnified by Bush calling its a crusade and later citing Biblical passages to convince other leaders that this was a worthy, if not divinely ordained, effort. His subordinates appeared to keep Bush in a Biblical mindset by adding prominent quotations from the Bible in reports on the war, here.
In my view, this raises serious legal questions that should result in a review of this contract. As a minimum, the contractor should have to pay for the removal of the citations. We have to able to trust contractors not to carry out their hidden or religious agenda as part of a contract with the American people. Just imagine if these were citation to the Koran. If the company wishes to proselytize it should do so with theocratic governments. Perhaps the Swiss Guards that the Vatican need a few sights and citations.
For the full story, click here.
I don’t start wars, or join totalitarian movements, intractable one.
Mike Spindell
1, January 20, 2010 at 11:32 am
Bravo, Brava, Bravi, Brave!
May I add one small clarification (note … not a correction) … perhaps, shall I call it an expansion:
Constantine does not, technically, convert to Christianity. He becomes a “patron” of ONE of the MANY existing Christian sects. This sect had the Old Testament as well as the New Testament as part of its canon. This sect included the story of historical Israel as part of its history, and thus had an entire language for articulating the relationship of government and piety. It had the model of King David. Constantine also appreciated the hierarchy, a government within a government, which this sect had created through its use of elders, deacons, and bishops.
Mike, I wanted to take a moment and thank you for your comment. (wish it had come a few hours earlier but no complaint). It’s well said and is clear and concise.
But you may have missed the part where I pointed out I was not going to linger any further here. I stopped in this afternoon to see if any other sincere questions were posed for me, which I see none were, but other than that I’m going to look for another blog where a little less religious bigotry exists.
Now you’re a Druid did you say? (lol). Just kidding. Being a Deist\Jewish you probably don’t feel the direct point of the knife as each day in these blogs the Christian faith is decimated, ridiculed and outright condemned. Page after page of would be arm chair scholars expound countless hours on how the actions of a few albeit vocal group of Christians, defines us all.
Its therefore vexing to me to see the only group of people left in this country who claim to support tolerance and condemn intolerance, so wantonly bigoted as to label all Christians and their beliefs evil, because of the actions of some.
This is the very soul of bigotry. The very heart of it. Defining an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. Given the majority of the country is Christian I wonder who these people think were standing alongside them for 8 years protesting the Bush regime and the corruption of our democracy?
Did they not know we were Christians too?
Do they not realize that Christians, particularly independent Christians are leaving the democrats in droves?
Yesterday a Democrat lost in Mass. because she offended the independents with a dismissive and apathetic campaign. She did not reach out and thus the independents left her in droves. Some did not vote. Others voted against her. And the result is the republicans now have shifted the balance of power in the Senate. Soon the same will happen with the House, and then the White House.
And it will happen not because of policies as much as the majority of Christians in this country who are not evangelicals and neoconservatives, but moderates and independents who value their beliefs and who are afraid of these new, pro-atheist anti-Christian democrats.
Here, let me say that again. They are AFRAID of these new pro-atheist, anti-Christian democrats.
As much as we fear the corruption of our beliefs by the neoconservative right, many of us fear as much and some even more the idea of being ruled by anti-Christians (anti-Christs lol). See what I’m saying?
Now I myself don’t believe that the democrats will be rounding any of us up any time soon to shove into cattle cars or something. Although I have heard the following in liberal and progressive blogs over the past year.
1. Make Christians wear name tags to identify them.
2. Christians should be compelled to seek psychiatric treatment to cure them of their hallucinations
3. Christians should be taxed for being a burden to our system of government
4. Christians should be lined up and shot
5. Christians should be moved to the south and the north be made a free atheist nation
And in here?
Religion is a Pox. We believe in fairy tales and story books. We support Hitler.
And those are just samples. From the moment I started reading this blog I’ve seen nothing but anti Christian sentiment. Now obviously Antisemitism is not tolerated but AntiChristianism is. Other than you I’ve not seen anyone step up and condemn this sort of hateful prejudice against a group of people.
The blog owner seems content to tolerate it. The other bloggers show no outrage and voice no condemnation of it. Were the things that are said in this and other blogs said about Gay and Lesbian people, African Americans, etc, the outrage would be swift and sure.
But when they mock, ridicule and condemn an entire group of people, millions and millions of people, for the actions of a few, few if any speak up.
Now I vote (or don’t vote) based on my conscience and I am old enough and hopefully smart enough to know that the vocal bloggers who seem to dominate these blogs are not necessarily voicing the opinions of the leaders they elect. And that’s good. But the fact is there is an ever growing movement of progressives, democrats and independents who are Christian in faith who have had enough with the new progressive movement and their rampant hatred and reviling of what is sacred to them. It is difficult if not impossible for those who embrace the Christian faith to find any sort of fellowship in liberal or progressive blogs, websites chat rooms etc and even many public venues.
And no doubt my voicing these concerns will be met with a barrage of insults about my whining and complaining but the fact is I am doing neither.
I’m trying to educate.
Because like it or not, accept it or not, face up to it or not, what happened last night in Massachusetts is just the tip of the iceberg.
Believe it or not but a big fall out is coming. Moderates. Independents. Christian progressives and liberals. All falling by the wayside as it were, who will either not vote, or will vote republican or independent ticket. Thus democrats will lose seats in droves.
Of course there are many factors involved. President Obama’s failure to follow through on his campaign promises and ideals. The democrats cow towing to the republicans on health care and other issues. All of these things play a huge role.
But the fact is at the end of the day it was the independents and the moderates who shored up the democratic votes in states across the nation to help shoe in democrats in both houses and in the White House. And those people are by and large Christians. And those people see the democrats, these new democrats, progressives, etc with their Bill Maher movies, their mocking of Christianity as fairy tales and Christians as stupid, deceived, etc, and they are afraid. Afraid of the bigots on the left as much as they are the bigots on the right.
So when election times come, they just will not show. And if they do, it won’t be to vote for the democrats.
See this. Don’t see this. Believe it. Don’t believe it. But its a fact nonetheless and one that’s going to be made quite evident over the coming months and years.
Presenting itself as the erudite party of tolerance and inclusiveness, then proceeding to offend and drive off the largest single demographic in the country is counterproductive to winning elections. It is however a sure way to lose them.
Tolerance means tolerance. Not intolerance. And religious intolerance has become the new badge of progressivism with Bill Maher leading the way. Mocking the faith of everyone who’s votes you need to win neither points to the progressive party as progressive, tolerant or even smart.
It just doesn’t make sense.
Anyway I wanted to respond to your excellent comment and point out to you that the religious argument has ended. As I said I will not tarry long in a blog like this where the religious intolerance and bigotry is the rule of the majority, which clearly in this blog it is. (Although the minority does seem to at least exist). Not that I cannot defend my beliefs against the onslaught of uninformed attacks. I can. But to what end?
When clearly the overwhelming majority of people in here rally to shout down and drive off Christians then what good would I accomplish? Whom would my presence benefit? These sort of attacks bring out the worst in people, myself not excluded.
And that is not going to help anyone.
So the religious argument shall not continue. Not with me at least. I’m sure I’ll hear more laughter and ridicule for bothering to respond to your comment but I made it clear last night that any sincere comments I would still make an effort to respond to, and yours was the most sincere comment I’ve read in a long long time.
Shibboleth my friend. Shibboleth.
Nice thread you all have going here, even if it has gone of topic. Given the subject though, off topic is where it was inevitably heading.
As a Jewish Deist I really don’t have a dog in this fight, but it does seem like 30% is being piled on by both uber-Christians and atheists.
Unfortunately, though I understand the reasons given the amount of opposition he is facing, he seems to feel persecuted. A lot of back and forth has been bandied around and much of it kind of misses the real underlying issues. This is partly due to anti-religious prejudice and partly to do with pro-religious prejudice, so in that vein I would like to make a few observations.
1. The Torah is a holy Book written by Jews and for Jews.
2. The Gospels are testimony of Jesus life and mission, written from between 70CE and 120 CE. Near as anyone can figure Jesus died between 30 and 40CE. so the likelihood is that the Gospels were written not by Jesus disciples, but by a next generation of Christians, who might have known the Apostles (or not)and were writing after the sacking of the Temple and fall of Israel.
3. Jesus was undoubtedly a Jew and most probably according to many historians a Pharisee Rabbi. The Golden Rule for instance is a Pharisee teaching that texts show predate Jesus.
4. Paul claimed to be a Pharisee(or was edited later to claim so), but many biblical scholars (Hyam Maccovy for instance)have many citations that belie Paul’s claim to be Pharisee trained and knowledgeable.
5. Digressing to the Torah for a second there are many bloodthirsty verses in it that when viewed out of the context of the whole document seem damning. What is missed is that the literary style of the time was one of metaphor. The Torah is not the History of the Jews per se, it is a recipe for living a good life and discussing human foibles. This is easily seen if one looks at the Jewish Patriarchs and great leaders (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Soloman, David and Moses) and see how each of them was portrayed as a flawed human being, rather than a super person. This is a consistent theme throughout the Torah and its message is that even the best of us including God have foibles, but by following the 613 Commandments one can live a good life. By Jewish standards this is all, since we really don’t believe in an afterlife, or heaven and hell.
6. Now where the Jews were seen as a small and problemmatic people, the ancient world did recognize and respect that they were the only ones with a book and that book went back a least a millenium (see latest archaelogical findings) and that gave them a measure of respect and legitimacy.
7. Christianity, which was really the invention of Paul(Saul)someone who never knew Jesus (peculiarly)who had a vision on his way to Damascus. While he was changing Jesus into a diving being, he needed to coopt the Torah to give his new faith added weight, because Jesus clearly lived the life of a pious Jew.
8. This was not met with gratitude by the remaining disciples and their leader James (Jesus brother)and although it is downplayed in the Christian Canon, James group continued on separately until around 600BCE.
9. Jesus was not killed by Jews. He was killed by the Romans and for a very specific reason that is written in the Gospels and displayed on the Cross. He claimed to be “King of the Jews.” This was considered by the Romans as treason and cruxifiction was the punishment. The Gospels record of Pilate washing his hands is fabricated and belied by the documents of Roman history which show Pilate soon recalled because his methods were too brutal even for the Romans.
10. The Jews were hated by the Romans because they were one of the few conquered people who refused to accede to the “Pax Romana” and kept rebelling, inflicting some punishment. The Gospels are incorrect in their portrayal of the Pharisees on many counts and I see even intelligent people I respect on this site, who still don’t understand the miscasting. The Sadducees were the functional/hereditary Priesthood who ran the temple and were for strict adherance to everything in the Torah. Why? Because this gave them their reason for being the Priesthood, as descendants of Aaron. The Pharisees were the actual religious teachers of the Jews and creators of modern Judaism.
They worked in regular professions, like carpentry, making no money out of their Rabbinic status. They preferred a more liberal, less harsh interpretation of the Torah. They also were the leaders of the resistance to the Romans.
11. Moving right along to Constantine’s time Christianity, though at times outlawed, had made significant headway in the Roman Empire. Constantine was one of two or three fighting for the title Emperor. He made a deal with the Christians in order to gain their support. He got it and became Emperor to boot. He was solidifying his power and didn’t want another revolt by Christians thinking he reneged. Smart man that he was he declared Christianity the religion of the Empire and called together the council of Nicea in 320 BCE in order to create the Christian Canon. There was a problem though because Christianity had Jesus, who was executed for treason and probably a leader in revolt against Romans. I believe a deal was worked out, rivalries ended by various Christian Bishop’s seeking power in favor of the “pliable” ones and documents were edited to make Jesus into an ethereal character having nothing against the Romans and Emperor. The problem was there were texts and tradition going back centuries that belied this and some of them had to be included, other more favorable ones (like “render unto Caesar…)added. Since Constantine was either a sun worshipper/follower of Mithra, or both certain traditions were adapted like having Jesus born on 12/25, the same date curiously that Mithra was born. There were later Councils, some repression of beliefs called
“heretic” (Arian for instance)and the making the Bishop of Rome supreme Christian leader.
12. The Torah part of the Christian bible is incidentally a translated version of the Septaguint (written in 2,000 year old Greek)and not what is written in the original Aramaic. Mistranslations abound, not so curiously, to the favor of Christians.
Part of my being a Deist is that I suspect there is a creative force in the Universe, but understand that all religions are vain attempts to understand and define that force, by creatures such as we incapable of doing so. I therefore respect the attempts of all religions and approve of them to the extent that they believe in “That which is hateful to you, do not do to others” or some version thereof. I use Judaism as a meditation of my beliefs and because I’ve always been proud and happy to be a part of such a “problemmatic people.”
Return to your religious arguments now if you will, but please do so with a more clarified attitude of what is being discussed. It is too easy for the Atheists to take “cheap shots” and frankly religious Fundamentalism, of all stripes, leaves religion wide open for heavy critique. There are, however, people with religious beliefs who do work for a better world and we will all need to join together if we are to keep humanity from falling again into the morass of ignorance that fundamentalism and Corporatism demand.
Mespo,
I must have missed the C. Daniels’ reference.
______________________
30%r’
I am a very conservative Republican who simply wants religiously insane fools removed from my Republican Party so that I can once again vote Republican.
Saving Private Ryan?
No one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition. But of course, the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman.
ThirtyPercenter
“No we can’t troll.
Now that you’ve indicated that your goal is just to play silly games to derail the thread I’ll wish you luck on your medication and bid you adieu.
Bye bye troll. Enjoy your romp”
Thank you, I have.
Flights of angels and all that.
ThiryPercenter
“Wow that hurts.
Now did you have anything of value to add or are you just going to continue with your juvenile taunts?”
I’m still waiting for the house lights to come up.
ThirtyPercenter
“Well I’m sure that thought will comfort you and the rest of your bigoted friends in here when they swear in your new republican congressional leaders and President.
Heck of a job”
Seeing as how the democratic president and congress haven’t passed a health care bill, ended a war or closed Gitmo I would think you would hardly notice.
ThirtyPercenter
“If you didn’t want my responses to your questions and comments to and about me, one would think you’d stop making them.”
I got behind during dinner so I’m trying to catch up. I watched the ACOG video too.
So when did it go from inquisition to questions and comments? Are we at Orange level now?
No we can’t troll.
Now that you’ve indicated that your goal is just to play silly games to derail the thread I’ll wish you luck on your medication and bid you adieu.
Bye bye troll. Enjoy your romp.
ThirtyPercenter
“Once again the dishonest technique of criticizing someone, then when they respond criticize them for responding.”
I never claimed I was leaving.
We can do the headcutting scene from Crossroads all night buddy.
Now, do you have anything of value to add or are you just going to keep trying to think of that cool comeback line you wished you had said back when it was pertinent?
“I don’t remember anything about trolls and whether being one is a sin.” Pinandpuller
I don’t remember saying it was.
ThirtyPercenter
“And I don’t recall Jesus hesitating to call a hypocrite a hypocrite, nor Paul, nor Phillip..nor the Baptist, nor any of the apostles.”
I don’t remember anything about trolls and whether being one is a sin.
“You want to dish it out then hide behind the skirts of my beliefs.”
“I took you for a kneeler.” Maddy Ross
“Well sometimes you’ll find that not everyone’s going to roll over every time you say boo.”
And sometimes they come back.
“Perhaps you need to reread the bible you think you know.”
I will study to show my self approved unto ThirtyPercenter-which is my reasonable service.
Wow that hurts.
Now did you have anything of value to add or are you just going to continue with your juvenile taunts?
ThirtyPercenter
“You started with me”.
You sound like Walter Mattheau in The Sunshine Boys.
ThirtyPercenter
“ThirtyPercenter
Well, let’s just get the ball rolling here…
“And the fact that at no time during the early church did Paul ever call for a single person to be killed”…,
No, he just held the jackets of the other guys who were killing Christians.
“The fact is most of those out there condemning Christianity don’t have the knowledge about the topic, to be doing so. Like the Neoconservatives who twist the scriptures for their own purposes, and misquote and turn to the Torah to condemn the Christians, so to do we see people in blogs across the web twisting the scriptures, misquoting them (as we saw Mespo do the other day, something he’s yet to offer an explanation for) and reading from the Torah to condemn that which they do not understand.”
I’m just gonna take a guess here, but I think that people are saying that since Jesus said “I and my Father are one”, and John says,”The Word was with God and the Word was God,” that the I AM from the Torah is also Jesus of the Gospels.
“The only 4 books in the Bible which contain the instructions of the man who started Christianity, Christ, …. are found in Matthew, Mark Luke and John.”
You know, my aunt converted to Judaeism and at the wedding, in deference to my family, they stomped on a beer can.
I would be interested to know your views about Christians serving in the military. I don’t remember Jesus telling the centurion to quit his day job but I might have missed that part.
If you consider this mocking and abuse then you should consider yourself fortunate-but then again that’s Paul in Acts and I haven’t nailed down your stance there yet, so to speak.” Me
And your point is?
“I’m pretty sure that’s part of the deal when you take up your cross.” -Pinandpuller
Well I’m sure that thought will comfort you and the rest of your bigoted friends in here when they swear in your new republican congressional leaders and President.
Heck of a job.