After holding a large public ceremony for the signing of the health care bill, President Barack Obama is barring cameras when he signs the executive order needed to secure the votes for the narrow passage: a ban on federal funding of abortion.
Rep. Bart Stupak and his colleagues will attend the signing but no cameras are going to be allowed by the White House. The thirteen members are all pro-life Democrats and the White House has decided that the public should not witness the event.
By the way, Stupak was suddenly given an over $720,000 grant for airports in this district shortly before his vote, here. This has led some to question whether the pro-life order was the only condition of his support.
For the full story, click here.
and lest we forget what rape looks like:http://www.businessinsider.com/al-franken-gets-alleged-kbr-rape-victim-her-day-in-court-2010-3
Byron
Blouise:
I would do it if I were him, good PR on the right to life side of the aisle, he can “wink” at the pro-choice side as he does it.
===============================================================
Exactly!
Firstly, Thank you Buddha
Duh,
“By 1965, all fifty states banned abortion, with some exceptions which varied by state: to save the life of the mother, in cases of rape or incest, or if the fetus was deformed.”
I don’t see where the societal pressures that screamed for the passage of Roe v. Wade have abated…they are still there.
The affordability issue brought to light that abortions were being denied to those in poverty,who needed them most,and that disproportion made it an equity issue (am I remembering correctly here?). Procurement of illegal abortions was wreaking more damage by way of infections, increasing black market and other gross things which added danger to the dilemma.
Rape and Incest are extremes just as ‘convenience’ is an extreme…and these are probably the least likely scenarios. Once a woman is pregnant the choices are not simply to have or not to have. Much depends on the father of the child, the extended family, $$$resources, impact on existing family units, the extended societal norms and so on, so on.
One of my favorite movies…”Juno” is what can happen when a young woman can make a decision based on EDUCATED choice. Unfortunately, the right to that very education is often a part and parcel of the extreme rights argument against abortion. I will never understand that.
Blouise:
I would do it if I were him, good PR on the right to life side of the aisle, he can “wink” at the pro-choice side as he does it.
Peter Singer thinks “abortion” is acceptable up to about 2 years. Apparently 2 years is around the time children start being able to understand they are an autonomous human being and are becoming self aware.
I am just wondering what the difference is between a child 1 week before birth and 1 week after birth, both need the mother to survive.
It is ok to suck the brains out of one but not ok to leave the other in the trash. I don’t understand.
That’s our faint-of-heart leader!
“He can run but he can’t hide … ” (Joe Louis)
Come on President Obama … round up all the dems you’re placating, grab Joe Biden, and stage another “beer-fest” photo op for the pro-lifers. Fox News can run the pool-camera.
Emotional immaturity is how you end up with horrific stories like these:
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/12/nyregion/girl-held-in-death-of-abandoned-baby.html
And even worse, if that is possible . . .
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/03/nyregion/mother-is-charged-in-abandoned-baby-s-death.html
People who cannot care for children should not have them. If that requires an abortion, which is the greater “evil”? Why killing the living is the greater evil and any answer other than that is simply insane. Removing what is essentially a growth biologically speaking? Not so much.
Duh,
“If Soranus would have recommended abortion whenever the birth of a child was “inconvenient”, I’d find that to be much more persuasive.”
There is nothing more inconvenient that emotional immaturity.
“Soranus was a 2nd century Greek physician who recommended abortion in cases involving health complications and emotional immaturity.”
Buddha,
I don’t dispute that abortions took place long ago. Historical records demonstrating that the act and the procedures for doing so existed long ago does not mean that such acts were considered to be acceptable by any of those societies as a whole. Quickening was an accepted indication that a woman was going to have a baby. The recommendation by Soranus in cases where health and emotional immaturity is a good indicator of the respect given to the unborn life. If Soranus would have recommended abortion whenever the birth of a child was “inconvenient”, I’d find that to be much more persuasive.
Duh,
Let’s do the math, shall we?
Starting with 1820 as a base.
Proto-symbolic communication has been around for approximately 30,000 years with symbolic language developing roughly in the last 7,000 years when is arose roughly concurrently in Sumer, China, Mesoamerica and Egypt.
Soooo . . .
2010 to 1973 (the date of the Roe v Wade decision) means abortion has be legal in these United States for 37 years. This means that if you are taking the 1820 restriction (NOT prohibition), it was either restricted or illegal for 153 years. Taking into the account the time before 1820 to the origination of written language (7,000 years ago) that leaves you with 6,847 years unaccounted for and if you go to the proto-symbolic range, it’s 29,847 years unaccounted for.
Human history is not solely American history.
The Ebers Papyrus from Egypt dated at 1550 BCE mentioned forced abortion. The Chinese have records indicating abortions as long ago as 515 BCE. In addition, Chinese legend says that the Emperor Shennong used mercury to induce abortions for unwanted children produced through concubines. You want a Western example? How about the Greeks. Soranus was a 2nd century Greek physician who recommended abortion in cases involving health complications and emotional immaturity. He did this in his scholarly work titled, of all things, Gynecology.
Fetus worship is a relatively new phenomena in human history, tracing it’s roots to both Catholicism (gots to have more of them Catholics sez the Pope) and Fundamentalist Christianity (which is likely a form of mental illness considering the history of the religion proper – which NEVER considered the Bible as the literal “word of God” – Jesus taught by parable, not edict and the Jews had a long tradition of not treating the Old Testament, which they call the Torah, as being literal either).
“If DNA and potential are the factors that make a human fetus a full-fledged human”
If the natural chain of events would not produce a human baby, I have no desire to consider a need to protect it. We can take almost anything to the point of being ridiculous in an attempt to avoid recognizing the basic topic of discussion.
With current technology a cancer cell could potentially be a baby.
In fact, a human blastocyst is more like a tumor than a sentient human in almost all respects. Both, cancer and blastocyst cells, are undergoing rapid cell mutation and division but also hold the DNA to create a human.
I know you said you didn’t want to pursue this line of discussion and I’ll drop it after one more question.
If DNA and potential are the factors that make a human fetus a full-fledged human then why shouldn’t all other cells that meet that criteria be valued in the same way?
Buddha said “Tootles,
Prove that until recent history abortion has been illegal.”
I’m sure “Tootles” must have been a type-o. Buddha would not use childish games to provoke incivility. 🙂
In the United States, abortion laws began to appear in the 1820s, forbidding abortion after the fourth month of pregnancy.
Through the efforts primarily of physicians, the American Medical Association, and legislators, most abortions in the US had been outlawed by 1900.
By 1965, all fifty states banned abortion, with some exceptions which varied by state: to save the life of the mother, in cases of rape or incest, or if the fetus was deformed.
If we look at Black’s (First Edition), we find the definition of abortion to be;
“In criminal law. The miscarriage or premature delivery of a woman who is quick with child. When this is brought about with a malicious design, or for un unlawful purpose, it is a crime in law. The act of bringing forth what is yet imperfect; and particularly the delivery or expulsion of the human fetus prematurely, or before it is yet capable of sustaining life.”
Woosty’s still a Cat,
I’ve been watching your posts and I must say that not only do I approve and appreciate, but the two resident cats here do as well even though only one of them can read. The second one finds out what’s going on here from the first. Cats can be terrible gossips.
Blind,
Cases like that of Terri Schiavo are far too involved. I don’t want to appear like I’m avoiding the question, I just think it would be too far off topic.
I believe that all human life deserves respect. We know that a cancer cell, following a normal cycle of events, will never become a baby. When we push the envelope, and attempt to confuse the issue by discussing whether or not a mole can be ethically removed, we miss the whole point of the discussion.
the fact that some people actually think obama is a leftist shows how lack of perspective and lack of education has harmed america.
Yes, I see your intelligence reeks. Do you know anything about education or is this your normal genocide self?
Tootles,
Prove that until recent history abortion has been illegal.
Show your work.
It’ll be funnier than Hell watching you try.
” http://www.ffrf.org/publications/nontracts/What-Does-The-Bible-Say-About-Abortion/
The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.
When Does Life Begin?
According to the bible, life begins at birth–when a baby draws its first breath.”
As far as murder is concerned…Rabbinical thought equates theft with murder as a persons loss of resource quarantees that they will not be able to live the life they had before the theft.
We should be very careful about equating religeous belief with earthly law. There are some places in this world where women and young(very young) girls have no rights over thier bodies and functions. They can be stoned if raped. They can be killed if molested by a member of thier own family. They cannot leave thier houses. They can be divorced if they don’t provide male ‘issue’. They can be sold. Here in this Country the line in the sand against this base ideology and treatment of women, is the womens right to have a say in how her body is used. Period.
the fact that some people actually think obama is a leftist shows how lack of perspective and lack of education has harmed america.
Thanks, BIL. I accept responsibility and have a clearer understanding of what is expected here. JT has a great place here to exchange ideas and proper decorum is an important aspect.