Video Shows Maryland Police Beating Student After Maryland-Duke Basketball Game

A new video appears to support brutality claims against three Prince George’s County police officers shown beating of a Maryland student after the Maryland-Duke basketball game.

Prosecutors are investigating the matter and this video is likely to be the central feature of any trial.

The video shows the student taunting and then talking to police. However, beyond being perhaps a bit obnoxious, the student does not appear to be doing anything warranting arrest let alone such a beating.

115 thoughts on “Video Shows Maryland Police Beating Student After Maryland-Duke Basketball Game

  1. Are we sure this video was taken on a U.S. city street. The video seems to be from a foreign country not the good ol U.S.A.

  2. That is a disgusting display of police arrogance and abuse. These guys should be in jail and should also be ashamed of themselves. 3 and 4 of them with riot sticks and full riot geat, attacking an unarmed individual. Such brave guys!

  3. A clear case of a young, aggressive, and poorly equipped, provocateur placing the scores of both mounted and heavily armed officers of the crown in reasonable apprehension of bodily harm, and the application of reasonable force to subdue him.

    Ooops … sorry, wrong system of government!

  4. If anyone has been Googling around for just this kind of thing, they wouldn’t be as shocked by this video.

    Police abuse is rampant across our whole country. Usually around big cities it really gets out of control, but sometimes smaller, close knit police forces will try cover-ups too.

    Alex Svoboda, Lisa Tanner, Abner Louima, Channette Carpenter, Kathryn Johnston, Mace Hutchinson and of course a couple of the most famous (infamous?) cases, Angie Garbarino & Hope Steffey.

    These are just a few I have run across, but according to evidence I have run across there are actually MILLIONS of cases per year!

  5. Bdaman said:

    “Dr Slarti is going to be very upset about this.”


    “By the reaction of the police I take it Duke won the game”

    I was very upset – Maryland won the game. But winning the national championship takes the edge off and the police actions are inexcusable no matter what the results of any game. I hope all of the officers at the scene are fired, the ones who actually did the beating are jailed and the city faces a large civil suit.


    If your statistics are correct (and I have no reason to think they’re not), thats very disturbing and depressing.

  6. Bdaman,

    I’m guessing that the fan was probably rowdy and obnoxious because Maryland won (Duke fans wouldn’t think that beating Maryland was a big deal – Carolina, even when they suck like this year, is a different matter ;-)), but police should be able to tolerate ANY verbal abuse (not that I think people should verbally abuse the police, but it’s their job to know the difference between verbal abuse and physical violence and they should never instigate it either).

  7. It is long past time that Americans rise up against the criminal gangs of armed police thugs roaming the streets of our cities and towns.

  8. @Buddy – I pass on that bet. (Without reading the original article) What do YOU want to make a bet that they actually charged the victim with ‘assaulting a police officer’ and/or ‘resisting arrest’?

    @ Chris – My presumption is that he is referring to how ‘militarized’ the police forces are as a result of a number of things, including aggressive direct recruitment of combat experienced veterans. Of which there are an abundance as a result of 9 years of ongiong active war. While I support our troops and am grateful of thier service, I don’t necessarily want my police to emulate our military…

  9. What makes someone in the military more likely to do something like this? Do you believe that veterans are overly aggressive or can you reference some study that would validate this argument? Wouldn’t veterans be better able to handle situations such as this being that they have had much experience in such situations. I served in the Marine Corps for five years and belive it or not I’m not some crazed idiot out hurting people for looking at me cross.

  10. Chris,

    I’d certainly be more willing to believe that, say, Blackwater types that had been in Iraq would be prone to this kind of thing than members of the USMC (all of the Marines that I know are outstanding individuals). Unfortunately things like the video released recently by Wikileaks raises doubts about the behavior of our military.

    Thank you for your service.

  11. You really can’t judge the military as a whole based on the actions of a few idiots. Or would you also be willing to judge all lawyers based on the actions of the gambling lady on another thread? Every profession has idiots right?

  12. AY,

    Yup, they’d have tear gassed the whole crowd!

    I still remember my ex-wife calling me from Brazil and asking me about the EL cops marching down Grand River firing tear gas (she had seen it on CNN international).

    I was a MSU grad student for the second EL riot (after losing to Duke in the final four in ’98) and a friend and I wanted to make T-shirts saying ‘I got gassed at Michigan State’.

  13. “You really can’t judge the military as a whole based on the actions of a few idiots. Or would you also be willing to judge all lawyers based on the actions of the gambling lady on another thread? Every profession has idiots right?”

    I think there is a systemic problem with combat veterans becoming domestic police. I think this vid is symbolic of that. Do you think it is not?

  14. Slarti,

    That I understand, I was there at the time. Hey, do you know if PinBall Pete’s is still in business? What a great place. But you are probably a gamer as opposed to a baller….

  15. AY,

    Pete’s was still there last I knew (I drove by it last summer). In high school me and my friends would go to 7/11 and get a candy bar and big gulp for lunch and then go to Pete’s to play video games – I generally played elevator action until I got too good to finish before lunch was over. And I’ve been known to play the sliver ball from time to time…

  16. Yeah man, that happened to a friend of mine. The officer said he just fell after he shot the guy. He was promoted after that little incident to desk sergeant. Of course, not the guy that got shot because he is dead. The cop dude.

  17. Buddy,

    What jobs would you approve of for combat veterans? Can they be doctors or lawyers? The answer is yes, as long as they meet the criteria to fill those positions. Should be no different for law enforcement.

    Also, nobody ever said the guy in this video was a veteran. So how is this video symbolic of anything having to do with veterans?

  18. @Slartibartfast

    My numbers would have to be close, not too long ago they had a NY cop that spilled the beans about quotas. In that story they admitted to a half a million people a year stopped & rousted around for no good reason other than them having to fill a quota.

    And that is just in New York. I think Chicago may even be worse. And when you add in every major city in the rest of the country, it starts looking REALLY scary! Plus for every story that actually reaches the news media, I would have to think there are more that never do. (I know that has happened around here.)

  19. What jobs would you approve of for combat veterans? Can they be doctors or lawyers? The answer is yes, as long as they meet the criteria to fill those positions. Should be no different for law enforcement.

    This is a fair question. My answer:

    If a veteran’s job in the military involved doing, or training to do, things that would be considered excessive force or police brutality or unConstitutional police behavior, then that person should never be a police.

    If a veteran’s job in the military involved doing, or training to do, things that would be considered medical malpractice or unConstitutional doctor behavior, then that person should never be a doctor.

    If a veteran’s job in the military involved doing, or training to do, things that would be considered legal malpractice or unConstitutional attorney behavior, then that person should never be a lawyer.

    So how does this play out?

    well, we know that the combat troops are trained to do (or at least not to avoid) collateral damage and collateral indignities to Iraqis that would not be considered acceptable in the USA. Hence, combat veterans should not become policemen in the USA. There are plenty of other careers out there.

    Are US military medics, or other military soldiers trained to commit medical malpractice. Probably not. Most presumably aren’t trained to give medical treatment, outside of first aid, at all. Presumably the medics are trained to practice good medicine and not bad. Doctors are good to go.

    As far as US soldiers who get legal training, I don’t know. Are they systematically trained to lie when possible to avoid delicate situations involving potential violations of the Rules Of Engagement? Did they write the torture memo? If the answers to either of these questions are yes, then they shouldn’t be lawyers in the USA.

  20. Buddy,

    So then show me all these instances of combat veterans using excessive force. Show me something that shows that you aren’t just making assumptions about combat veterans being cops. I highly doubt that you can prove that a combat veteran is more likely to do such things than say a college graduate.

    You have to have some rational for cases such as the one above, so you assume it must be a combat veteran. When you find out that he was not a veteran then he must be the exception. My guess is that you know very little about being a combat veteran, or many veterans themselves.

  21. Buddy,

    In the absence of evidence to support your position, I have to agree with Chris here. I think your position reflects the attitudes that I think were the problem in the vietnam era. If you want to protest and unjust war (or unethical or criminal actions taken by members of the military not acting under direct orders) I think that’s great (I’ll even join you), but to disrespect our soldiers who are putting their lives on the line out of a sense of duty, honor and a desire to serve our country is wrong. Likewise, making an unsupported generalization about soldiers serving as police is wrong (replace ‘soldiers’ with an ethnic or religious group or some other profession and ask yourself if you would make the same kind of statement. Abuses by our military following the chain of command are heinous and those originating the orders should be rooted out and punished, likewise abuses by individuals acting on their own in the military are heinous and the individuals should be punished, but painting the vast majority of brave men and women with that brush is wrong too.

  22. In the absence of evidence to support your position

    What kind of evidence would you like to see, specifically?

    How much would you accept?

    I am going on common sense, but if you want more what exactly, specifically do you want?

  23. Buddy,

    A higher rate of excessive force complaints against police officers who were veterans than non-veteran officers. Evidence (not just your ‘common sense’ opinion) that combat training involves training soldiers to react in ways that would be inappropriate for law enforcement officers would also suffice. You are making a negative generalization about a group of people – to me this is something you should be able to back it up – if you can’t answer the objections that Chris and I raised, maybe you shouldn’t have said it in the first place.

  24. Slarti,

    Maybe they were pissed off because they could not get into blackwater/Xe and are taking it out on the average US citizen. Things they can do there and get away with and are held accountable here for the same Conduct.

  25. AY,

    Certainly police officers should be held accountable for this sort of behavior (Blackwater/Xe should be held criminally accountable for their actions, too) but are the military contractors/police that are prone to this sort of excess more likely to be combat veterans? Do you think that veterans should be smeared this way without evidence? I don’t.

  26. AY and Buddy,

    Replace ‘veterans’ in your argument with a racial or ethnic or religious group – would you still make the argument without anything more than ‘common sense’ to support it?

  27. But again, I will say, no one beats children as well as the People’s Republic of East Lansing and then have the courts up hold it as necessary. I have never seen any better equipped officers in Riot Gear unless you discount the SS-Waffen because they were tied to the Nazi’s.

    I do not think that the US Armed forces is better prepared than East Lansing’s Police.

  28. AY,

    ELPD prefers to stand off and fire tear gas. Also, if you were ever in East Lansing when they tried to crack down on Cedarfest, they brought in state cops and other out-of-town police. It seemed like ever other car was a police cruiser with 3 or 4 cops in it…

  29. Slarti,

    They have now started firing Rubber Bullets, Bean Bags and Taser Guns. I have talked to some people that were arrested last year and one person got hit by 2 of the three. They won’t have to worry to much as that area has been taken over under the power of ED to put upscale stuff there.

    When I was in Austin, I was at a friends house a coop. She (imagine that) had a room that over looked Frat Row. We were doing what we did do in college and watch one of the Grreks shoot off fireworks under a few of the cars in the parking lot.

    The next thing you know one car get set on fire and before it was over I think 5 or 6 Porsche’s, Alfa Romeo and a Ferrari were toast. It was fun to watch especially if you were toasted too. I am sure daddy bought em all new ones.

  30. Replace ‘veterans’ in your argument with a racial or ethnic or religious group – would you still make the argument without anything more than ‘common sense’ to support it?

    Lousy comparison. Combat veterans are trained to kill the enemy and to not mind doing collateral damage. Racial groups? No. Ethnic groups? Again, no.

    Having a certain set of life experience may make you inappropriate for some jobs. It would probably be easy for, say, Professor Turley to tell the folks at Wal*Mart that he really wanted to be a greeter and would stick with the job and not cause trouble. Still, they would probably not hire him (at least if he was honest on his resume).

    I am not saying that combat totally ruins a person or makes the person a monster. That isn’t true. It just renders the person unsuitable to be doing a highly similar (yet critically and crucially different) job here on the streets of America.

  31. Prove that it makes them unsuitable to do such a job. This is where you have to have evidence that shows that combat veterans are more likely to abuse their powers as a police officer, not just your “common sense”. Show me all your evidence, instead of your assumptions.

  32. Buddy,

    Is it that you believe vets aren’t smart enough to know the difference between the streets of Fallujah and the streets of any other city in America.

    Have you ever been in the military? How is it that you know so much about military training? Have you even read one sitrep, ever?

  33. Do you think that Professor Turley is not smart enough to be a good Wal*Mart greeter? You are not paying attention to my explanations, Chris. It is not a matter of smarts. It is a matter of mental conditioning to playing a certain role. The military conditions mind, and that cannot be turned on or off. What is more, veterans who become policemen do not want to turn it on or off. We do not know who beat McKenna because his compatriots have refused to reveal their identities. That is pure military think. Police departments all over the US are stinky with it. Again, it is fine in Iraq. It is fine in Afghanistan. But, those who are mentally conditioned to kill them over there so we don’t have to kill them over here need not to be lead into temptation over here. Sell cars. Learn tax accounting. Do a landscaping business. Be a dairy farmer. Teach ballet to youngsters. Work for the cable company. Get a PhD in theoretical physics. Just . . . not . . . police.

  34. Buddy,

    You’re saying that Chris shouldn’t be a cop just because you don’t think that he can tell the difference between Iraq and Maryland based on NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER. (Sorry to use you as an example, Chris, but I’m trying to get it through to Buddy that he’s advocating discrimination.) How is that different than saying someone trained as a priest shouldn’t be a scientist because they have been conditioned to accept things on faith? (Full disclosure: I am an atheist and a scientist.)

  35. Buddy,

    How do you know that the training the military recieves can’t be turned off? Can you reference some scientific study that says so? Are you telling me that the training I recieved still dictates my life? You still haven’t proven anything other than your own assumptions concerning our men and women in uniform.

  36. Buddy,

    I spent 2 years of my 5 year enlistment in Iraq. I am now in my junior year at UC Davis as a biochemistry major. I have never had anger problems and have a clean record. Are you telling me that if I pass the extensive backround check and the psyc tests that I shouldn’t be able to become a police officer simply because I volunteered to serve my country?

    I think my experiences would make me well qualified to be a police officer. I believe that my military experience help me handle high stress situations with a level head. At 26 years old, with my life experience up to this point, I would think I would be more qualified than most.

  37. Chris,

    Until Buddy provides evidence that military training conditions soldiers to react in ways inappropriate for police officers, the question of whether or not that training can be turned off is irrelevant. Buddy needs to establish both in order to make his case – I’m betting he can’t do either.

    You said:

    “I think my experiences would make me well qualified to be a police officer. I believe that my military experience help me handle high stress situations with a level head. At 26 years old, with my life experience up to this point, I would think I would be more qualified than most.”

    After thinking about this, I believe that, if anything, combat veterans would be less likely to commit the sort of abuses shown in this video. Buddy’s assertion presupposes that a trained soldier is less likely to care about collateral damage (and inflict it negligently) or more likely to want to cause collateral damage (and inflict it intentionally) than a non-soldier in the same position. Stated this way, the proposition seems ridiculous. I’m sure you would make an excellent police officer, but as a mathematical biologist who does protein-protein interaction modeling, I hope you continue in biochemistry (you can never have too many good biochemists as far as I am concerned…).😉

  38. cHRIS:

    If you have been in combat you have more life experience than most people. You also probably know how to get things done. And the training you had which was to minimize civilian casualties could actually be a detriment (to your safety) if you went into law enforcement.

    Good luck with the biochemistry that is cutting edge and not everyone is good at science, so Slarti is right and let someone else be a police officer.

    Maybe Buddy could be one, once he pulls his head out of a certain orifice.

  39. More of your hard earned federal anti terrorism tax dollars well spent and used by your local constabulary. I have the say the training is good, and the equipment, those ninja turtle outfits they wear are so police state fashionable. But a good beating sends the right message. Don’t ever go out and celebrate anything with more than two friends.

  40. Are you telling me that the training I recieved still dictates my life?

    I am telling you that it dictates the parts of your life where you decide whether to use force against other people and how much force to use. If you are not a policeman, then this is a very, very, very rare situation and you are fine. If you were a policeman then this will come up a lot and you will tend to make the wrong decisions because your mental conditions and your willingness to “articulate” (that is, prevaricate) after the fact will kick in. I am not saying that you can’t tell the difference between Iraq and Maryland, in the intellectual sense. I am saying that if someone spooks you in a high stress situation then your conditioning then your behavior would look like what we see in the video at the top of the thd and you would expect your brothers to lie to protect you like the brothers in the video at the top of the thread did. This is not an intellectual question. This is a question of training and instinct. Just don’t be a policeman. Be something else.

  41. –then your conditioning would kick in and then your behavior would look like what we see in the video at the top of the thd–

  42. Buddy Hinton:

    so you think the problem is military training and not corruption or lack of integrity?

    Isnt that the myth of the crazy vet? That is BS.

  43. Buddy,

    I would feel a lot better having Chris in any position of trust and authority than I would feel about you having the same position.

  44. I don’t think they are “crazy.” I think they act how they are trained to act. Here is a thought experiment:

    Imagine that the video at the top of the thread took place in Iraq and we were seeing it now courtesy of WikiLeaks. Imagine that the masked policemen are US soldiers and the students are Iraqis. Other wise imagine everything else is the same, including the report writing done afterwards.

    Would you be wanting the US soldiers who beat the hypothetical Iraqi to be punished?

    Would you want the US soldiers who wrote the hypothetical report to be punished?

    For me, the answers are no, and no. Look inside your heart and say what the answer is for you. If it came up on a blog, would you speak out against any of the hypothetical soldiers?

  45. Buddy:

    I think that most military personnel can make the distinction between Maryland and Iraq. A student in Maryland is much different than a “student” in Iraq. I would hazard a guess you need to be much more careful in Iraq when detaining someone than you do in Maryland.

    I assume by your post you think military personnel in Iraq are indiscriminately beating people and engaging in war crimes and other atrocities. And doing it because American military personnel are crazed baby killers. Per your preconceived notions.

    These young men and women were asked to do something that most of us have no idea of what they experienced and endured. It is beyond our comprehension. To think you have some superior knowledge of their psychological make-up and future reactions based on military training is a very large stretch. You diminish their humanity and turn them into automatons acting on pure instinct.
    That is BS.

  46. Byron, my question was a serious one and you ignored it.

    However, I will answer yours. Here is how I think US military is trained to act in Iraq:

    I think they followed all the military rules. I think they did nothing wrong. I don’t think they are crazy people. I don’t think they are deranged killers. I DO NOT WANT THEM BECOMING POLICEMAN HERE. It is the wrong training for that, and I don’t think it can be wished away with a few pretty, selfserving words.

  47. Chris,

    I just wanted to say that I believe most Americans value and respect the honor and integrity of our brave men and women in the military. Thank you again for your service.


    From what I understand the soldiers in the video acted under orders and according to their rules of engagement – i.e. it was a systemic problem, not a problem in how the soldiers were trained to react. Assuming that the individuals involved in this act did not violate the UCMJ, I would have no problem with them serving as police officers when they returned to the US. And to answer your question: If US soldiers beat an unarmed and unthreatening Iraqi without cause and lied about it in their report, I would expect them to be court-martialed and punished.

  48. Just watch the video. Listen to how they talk. Listen to what they say.

    If shooting the children in the blue SUV and their father from a great distance with a missile and machine guns was within the Rules Of Engagement (and I assume it was), then of course (merely) beating a kid who gets to close (that’s right: close) in a tense situation would be within ROE. Your hero worship has taken you through the lookingglass, Slartibartfast.

  49. Buddy,

    How were the police in a ‘tense’ situation? (I admit that a Maryland victory over Duke is unpleasant, but I would hardly characterize it as ‘tense’.) And as for the rules of engagement, I would expect soldiers to understand the concept better, not worse – it they were in a situation where the rules of engagement led them to beat an unarmed and unthreatening person without cause, then any problem is with the ROE, not the soldiers. Why do you think that soldiers would be MORE likely to violate the ROE than non-soldiers? (Whatever those rules happened to be.)

  50. The students in the Maryland video were much more of a threat (which is not to say a large threat) to the riot police then the people in the SUV trying to rescue the shot journalist were to the US military. Listen to how badly the military gunmen want to shoot the SUV, the pleading tone. There might have been children in the SUV. It didn’t matter. When it turned out there were children in there and they were hurt by the missile it still didn’t matter. You don’t just turn those attitudes off like a switch. Even if the returning veterans can tell apart Maryland and Iraq blindfolded, that really is not the issue here.

  51. Buddy,

    Again I ask, do you know if the person in this video was a veteran? Can you show me some videos of police officers abusing their powers, who were vets?

    In your opinion veterans are unintelligent bots who cannot think for themselves. You’ve probably seen half a dozen military movies so you assume that what you saw in Hurt Locker is how life in the military is. But you’ve never served in the military. You have no first hand experience of the training we recieve or how much we value human life.

  52. Again I ask, do you know if the person in this video was a veteran?

    Their conduct would indicate that they are veterans. The fact that their identities have not been released to the public suggests that the Prince Georges police department is lousy with veterans and their beloved opsec. Until and unless more information is released, that is the best clue we have, and our tentative judgements must be based upon that. There is certainly no good evidence that they were not veterans who were trained for military combat.

  53. You have no first hand experience of the training we recieve or how much we value human life.

    Sure I do.

  54. That video is business as usual. Again, listen to the way they talk and what they say. That video has been repeating itself in Iraq and Afghanistan for many years now I am sure. The only difference is that we usually don’t get to see it.

    And that is fine. That is what war (or at least occupation) looks like. That is what is permissible.

    I just don’t want those men to be making the decisions about who to shoot and who not to shoot inside the US. Unless the Canadians invade.

  55. Guess what Buddy “You can’t always get what you want”.

    The actions of MSgt Wert are bussiness as usual.

  56. Budahmed:

    That was a helicopter gunship that made a mistake from a fairly long distance. Not a situation that would come up much in police work.

  57. Budahmed:

    “The actions of MSgt Wert are bussiness as usual.”
    From the Marines I know I would say that is a true statement.

  58. That was a helicopter gunship that made a mistake from a fairly long distance.

    They made that mistake from a position of relative safety. I would hate to have them making a similar determination at close quarters. Speaking of quarters:

    I wish I had a quarter for everytime a policeman said “I thought I saw a [insert weapon here] and there turned out to be no [insert weapon here] there.”

    I wish I had a quarter for evertime a policeman said “I thought I saw a [insert weapon here]” and then his comrade in arms made it happen.

  59. bUDDY:

    I wish I had a quarter for every policeman who died because a criminal had a weapon and the officer didn’t see it.

    I wish I had a quarter for every child that received the folded flag from their fathers or mothers coffin and was thanked for their parent’s sacrifice.

    When you are in a war zone like Iraq there is no relative safety. Easy for you to sit back in your comfy chair and second guess motives and method from 10,000 miles away.

  60. second guess motives and method from 10,000 miles away

    I said that what the soldiers did in Iraq was fine. But if they police here they are going to bring the methods and motives here. It has already happening. Not only do they bring the methods and motives here on their own behalf, but they have a profound affect on policemen who have never trained for combat.

    You know, if veterans with combat training made up the proportion of police that they make up as a fraction of the population at large, there would not be much of a problem. The problem is that these people become policeman in wildly disproportionate numbers. I think we both know why that is.

    If they want to be lifeguards or firefighters, great. Just not police.

  61. Well if they want to become police thats ok too Buddy. Its just not okay with you, and that’s okay with me. No matter what anyone tells you, you are always going to have these unfounded, preconcieved notions about veterans becoming police officers, with no evidence to back it up. You have made numerous assumptions, with not one shred of evidence to prove that veterans make bad police officers. That’s no different than assuming women make bad soldiers, or gays shouldn’t be able to serve.

  62. Buddy,

    I notice that the deputy has been a member of the sheriff’s office since 2001, so he’s obviously not a combat veteran (unless he was in the 1st Gulf War…

  63. Im not sure what an 11 mos is.

    He couldn’t have been in the first gulf war because he is 33. And even if he were a combat veteran 1 instance wouldn’t consitute a trend.

  64. So that is what you got to prove your point? Weak. You realize that millions of people have served in the military since 2001 and you can show me one instance of bad behavior, if what you say is true.

  65. Don’t know if the Deputy was a veteran or not, but his story is pretty weak.
    Paper says there is a witness, but something is still funny about the story, and it wouldn’t be the first time papers have printed something and left out facts.

    And it looks like there is a lot left out of this story.

  66. So that is what you got to prove your point?

    This is onlt the first clear example of military training gone awry since we started this sub-discussion about popovets. Actually what reallt stinks of misplaced military tactics here is that this popovet’s department is covering for him. Automatically trying to make the case that he was within the “Rules Of Engagement.” That is fine in Iraq. It is evil to do in the USA.

  67. Buddy:

    I say lets just eliminate the ability of anyone but an EST trainer to become a cop and be done with it.

  68. err, military out of the police. I want to be clear that I applaud the efforts of policeman who decide to join the military, especially when they decide to do so because they realize that they are to aggressive and fearful to be a good policemen and want some more favorable rules of engagement.

  69. Buddy:

    “because they realize that they are to aggressive and fearful to be a good policemen and want some more favorable rules of engagement.”

    just admit that you think our military is full of blood crazed baby killers and be done with it. Catharsis is good for the soul and you wont have to obfuscate.

  70. serious speculation and aspersion casting on the military guys!

    there are psych elements that can play out for those who have PTSD etc…but who knows what about those cops? I would feel comfortable saying they behave like mercenaries….regardless of legitimate military history.

    oh yeah…..and I didn’t like seeing horses dressed up like pork.

  71. Sometimes their job involves killing babies, but not on purpose. This does not make them babykillers. It does make them unsuitable for police work here in the USA. They should be something else. Maybe assembly line work or be the CEO of a Fortune 500 Co. Plenty of other jobs out there that don’t involve taking pains to avoid creating situations where babies end up dead.

    When one of the soldiers finds out that they have shot two children with a missile (but didn’t manage to quite kill them) he says that the injuries to the children is the (now dead) parent’s fault for bringing them into the zone where a shooting has previously occurred. The other soldiers agree. At first, the soldiers on the ground are going to take the injured children to the US military medical facility for treatment, but then they decide that it will be okay to wait for an Iraqi ambulance to take the children to an Iraqi hospital. These attitudes about collateral damage, as calloused as they may seem (and they do seem calloused) are fine and dandy in Iraq. This is exactly how soldiers are supposed to think. They are terrible attitudes for a policeman in th US to have, and I don’t think that the attitudes in this paragraph can be or are unlearned (de-programmed, really) when the soldier redeploys as domestic police. The soldier should redeploy as a gear jammer or a bakerman instead.

  72. “In January 2000, he joined the U.S. Army. He married in June of that year, but his wife “had difficulties adjusting to the military life” and he was honorably discharged in November.

    The couple divorced in September 2001 and Verdoni returned from an Army base in Oklahoma to enroll in the criminal justice program at Manatee Community College.”

  73. Buddy,

    Please provide a link for that information. In any case, a single incident (in which the officer in question may or may not have done anything improper) does not make a pattern.

  74. Buddy,

    I checked out your links and any evidence they provide for your argument is pretty pathetic. Assuming that the officer acted improperly (which might never be conclusively determined), you have no evidence that his actions were a result of military training rather than police training. In fact, from statements and comments by other police officers, it seems that the law enforcement community feels that he acted properly according to police procedure (which may be a problem – I would argue it is, but, if true, blows your argument out of the water).

  75. the law enforcement community

    The law enforcement community is full of military veterans and they think anything goes.

    Did you see how the shooter’s own department is investigating the shooting. The lead investigator is (or was til yesterday) a “Facebook friend” of the gunman. On what planet are these things not a clear and direct conflict of interest? Answer: planet military think.

  76. Buddy,

    I see, so anyone who holds a view of law enforcement that you disagree with holds that opinion because of military training? It couldn’t possibly be an attitude born of police training? And it’s nice to know that you have such close, personal relationships with all of your Facebook friends. I have Facebook friends that I knew only causally and haven’t seen since high school over 20 years ago… Sorry, but your entire argument is pathetic and lacks any meaningful support.

  77. One shouldn’t be investigating one’s own friends to see whether they committed murder. This is true for both close/personal friends and more distant ones.

  78. Buddy,

    The fact the the investigating officer is a facebook friend of the deputy should be disclosed (which it was), but it is not an immediately disqualifying fact. And this has absolutely no bearing on your argument.

  79. You are so far out there this is ridiculous. There is no way this own guy’s department should be investigating him at all. You are so acclimated to this military driven police nonsense that you can’t even see it right in front of you.

  80. Buddy,

    I’m not defending the police, I’m staying that the problems are not due to police officers being former members of the military and that you haven’t provided any evidence to the contrary. I would agree that police rules of engagement allow for excessive force (especially with regard to tasers as Professor Turley has documented) I just don’t agree that excessive force has anything to do with military veterans being police officers and I believe that your argument is illogical (specifically, you seem to believe that military training to follow rules of engagement make a police officer LESS likely to follow police rules of engagement).

  81. No, I believe that military training to “follow” “rules” of engagement make a police officer LESS likely to follow police rules of engagement

  82. What if they were MP’s and not combat veterans?

    The key issue is whether the individual has been trained for combat.

    If the MP has never been trained for combat he might still be a good policeman. If all MPs are combat trained then they all should not be policemen.

    The problem with combat are that the “rules” are extremely permissive in the first place and second they do not need to be scrupulously followed. Most potential violations of the rules are kept secret and are not scrutinized in any detail. Any (secret) scrutiny that ROE rules violations get is heavily tilted in favor of the soldier. Nobody is in jail for killing Pat Tillman. That is just how it is over there and that it a fine way for it to be over there.

    However, these fighting men get used to this idea of permissive rules and lax, secretive enforcement. More to the point, the fighting men are brainwashed into believing that the permissive rules are restrictive. They are brainwashed not to understand or admit, even in their own minds, that the Iraq / Afghanistan occupation rules (where anything goes but outright malice aforethought) are a virtual straightjacket. They are further brainwashed into believing that the scrutiny they receive there is very rigorous oversight and extremely impartial. They lose the ability to understand what the word impartial really means. They learn the word, but are trained and experienced to attach the wrong concept to it.

    So then they get to Maryland or Arizona or wherever. It is different here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. The Rules of Engagement are much stricter here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. You will be more closely watched for overaggressiveness here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. If you are accused of brutality then your fellow officers and department won’t “have your back” the way they did in Iraq. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Congratulations — you’re a policeman.

    This might not be bad if one percent of the department is combat trained. However, as that number gets over 50% the cynicism and partiality will become the order of the day and has. Instead of training away unsuitable combat training previously received, the unsuitable combat training will end up infecting even the policemen who haven’t had that.

  83. Correction:

    –They are brainwashed not to understand or admit, even in their own minds, that the Iraq / Afghanistan occupation rules (where anything goes but outright malice aforethought) are PERMISSIVE rules.

  84. Buddy,

    What war college did you attend? Do you have a PhD in socialogy, psychiatry or psychology? Have you experienced military training or perhaps conducted research on those who have? I’m just courious, with this wealth of knowledge you have about military training and the effects on the human psyche what your backround is.

  85. Buddy,

    The link you posted provides no evidence for your point – the soldier interviewed is not, as far as I can tell, a police officer much less one accused of excessive force (in the performance of his duty as a police officer). You need to provide some evidence of military veteran police officers being MORE prone to excessive force than non-veteran police officers, until then you are making knee-jerk inflammatory conclusions based on your own prejudices, nothing more.

  86. Yeah, it would be nice if they collected all excessive force incidents and all alleged excessive force incidents and all police coverups and all alleged policice cover-ups into a central database with stats on the officers.

    Until that happens we just have to go with common sense, and what common sense tells me is that the bad things police do here look like things that are acceptable for soldiers in Iraq. That coupled with all the soldiers flooding into the ranks of US police tells me what to believe unless and until meaningful data starts getting collected.

    The burden of proof here belongs with the persons with access to the data and that is the police.

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