A new video appears to support brutality claims against three Prince George’s County police officers shown beating of a Maryland student after the Maryland-Duke basketball game.
Prosecutors are investigating the matter and this video is likely to be the central feature of any trial.
The video shows the student taunting and then talking to police. However, beyond being perhaps a bit obnoxious, the student does not appear to be doing anything warranting arrest let alone such a beating.
Just watch the video. Listen to how they talk. Listen to what they say.
If shooting the children in the blue SUV and their father from a great distance with a missile and machine guns was within the Rules Of Engagement (and I assume it was), then of course (merely) beating a kid who gets to close (that’s right: close) in a tense situation would be within ROE. Your hero worship has taken you through the lookingglass, Slartibartfast.
Chris,
I just wanted to say that I believe most Americans value and respect the honor and integrity of our brave men and women in the military. Thank you again for your service.
Buddy,
From what I understand the soldiers in the video acted under orders and according to their rules of engagement – i.e. it was a systemic problem, not a problem in how the soldiers were trained to react. Assuming that the individuals involved in this act did not violate the UCMJ, I would have no problem with them serving as police officers when they returned to the US. And to answer your question: If US soldiers beat an unarmed and unthreatening Iraqi without cause and lied about it in their report, I would expect them to be court-martialed and punished.
Byron, my question was a serious one and you ignored it.
However, I will answer yours. Here is how I think US military is trained to act in Iraq:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sxRfU-ik
I think they followed all the military rules. I think they did nothing wrong. I don’t think they are crazy people. I don’t think they are deranged killers. I DO NOT WANT THEM BECOMING POLICEMAN HERE. It is the wrong training for that, and I don’t think it can be wished away with a few pretty, selfserving words.
Buddy:
I think that most military personnel can make the distinction between Maryland and Iraq. A student in Maryland is much different than a “student” in Iraq. I would hazard a guess you need to be much more careful in Iraq when detaining someone than you do in Maryland.
I assume by your post you think military personnel in Iraq are indiscriminately beating people and engaging in war crimes and other atrocities. And doing it because American military personnel are crazed baby killers. Per your preconceived notions.
These young men and women were asked to do something that most of us have no idea of what they experienced and endured. It is beyond our comprehension. To think you have some superior knowledge of their psychological make-up and future reactions based on military training is a very large stretch. You diminish their humanity and turn them into automatons acting on pure instinct.
That is BS.
I don’t think they are “crazy.” I think they act how they are trained to act. Here is a thought experiment:
Imagine that the video at the top of the thread took place in Iraq and we were seeing it now courtesy of WikiLeaks. Imagine that the masked policemen are US soldiers and the students are Iraqis. Other wise imagine everything else is the same, including the report writing done afterwards.
Would you be wanting the US soldiers who beat the hypothetical Iraqi to be punished?
Would you want the US soldiers who wrote the hypothetical report to be punished?
For me, the answers are no, and no. Look inside your heart and say what the answer is for you. If it came up on a blog, would you speak out against any of the hypothetical soldiers?
Buddy,
I would feel a lot better having Chris in any position of trust and authority than I would feel about you having the same position.
Buddy Hinton:
so you think the problem is military training and not corruption or lack of integrity?
Isnt that the myth of the crazy vet? That is BS.
–then your conditioning would kick in and then your behavior would look like what we see in the video at the top of the thd–
Are you telling me that the training I recieved still dictates my life?
I am telling you that it dictates the parts of your life where you decide whether to use force against other people and how much force to use. If you are not a policeman, then this is a very, very, very rare situation and you are fine. If you were a policeman then this will come up a lot and you will tend to make the wrong decisions because your mental conditions and your willingness to “articulate” (that is, prevaricate) after the fact will kick in. I am not saying that you can’t tell the difference between Iraq and Maryland, in the intellectual sense. I am saying that if someone spooks you in a high stress situation then your conditioning then your behavior would look like what we see in the video at the top of the thd and you would expect your brothers to lie to protect you like the brothers in the video at the top of the thread did. This is not an intellectual question. This is a question of training and instinct. Just don’t be a policeman. Be something else.
More of your hard earned federal anti terrorism tax dollars well spent and used by your local constabulary. I have the say the training is good, and the equipment, those ninja turtle outfits they wear are so police state fashionable. But a good beating sends the right message. Don’t ever go out and celebrate anything with more than two friends.
cHRIS:
If you have been in combat you have more life experience than most people. You also probably know how to get things done. And the training you had which was to minimize civilian casualties could actually be a detriment (to your safety) if you went into law enforcement.
Good luck with the biochemistry that is cutting edge and not everyone is good at science, so Slarti is right and let someone else be a police officer.
Maybe Buddy could be one, once he pulls his head out of a certain orifice.
Chris,
Until Buddy provides evidence that military training conditions soldiers to react in ways inappropriate for police officers, the question of whether or not that training can be turned off is irrelevant. Buddy needs to establish both in order to make his case – I’m betting he can’t do either.
You said:
“I think my experiences would make me well qualified to be a police officer. I believe that my military experience help me handle high stress situations with a level head. At 26 years old, with my life experience up to this point, I would think I would be more qualified than most.”
After thinking about this, I believe that, if anything, combat veterans would be less likely to commit the sort of abuses shown in this video. Buddy’s assertion presupposes that a trained soldier is less likely to care about collateral damage (and inflict it negligently) or more likely to want to cause collateral damage (and inflict it intentionally) than a non-soldier in the same position. Stated this way, the proposition seems ridiculous. I’m sure you would make an excellent police officer, but as a mathematical biologist who does protein-protein interaction modeling, I hope you continue in biochemistry (you can never have too many good biochemists as far as I am concerned…). 😉
Buddy,
I spent 2 years of my 5 year enlistment in Iraq. I am now in my junior year at UC Davis as a biochemistry major. I have never had anger problems and have a clean record. Are you telling me that if I pass the extensive backround check and the psyc tests that I shouldn’t be able to become a police officer simply because I volunteered to serve my country?
I think my experiences would make me well qualified to be a police officer. I believe that my military experience help me handle high stress situations with a level head. At 26 years old, with my life experience up to this point, I would think I would be more qualified than most.
Buddy,
How do you know that the training the military recieves can’t be turned off? Can you reference some scientific study that says so? Are you telling me that the training I recieved still dictates my life? You still haven’t proven anything other than your own assumptions concerning our men and women in uniform.
Buddy,
You’re saying that Chris shouldn’t be a cop just because you don’t think that he can tell the difference between Iraq and Maryland based on NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER. (Sorry to use you as an example, Chris, but I’m trying to get it through to Buddy that he’s advocating discrimination.) How is that different than saying someone trained as a priest shouldn’t be a scientist because they have been conditioned to accept things on faith? (Full disclosure: I am an atheist and a scientist.)
Do you think that Professor Turley is not smart enough to be a good Wal*Mart greeter? You are not paying attention to my explanations, Chris. It is not a matter of smarts. It is a matter of mental conditioning to playing a certain role. The military conditions mind, and that cannot be turned on or off. What is more, veterans who become policemen do not want to turn it on or off. We do not know who beat McKenna because his compatriots have refused to reveal their identities. That is pure military think. Police departments all over the US are stinky with it. Again, it is fine in Iraq. It is fine in Afghanistan. But, those who are mentally conditioned to kill them over there so we don’t have to kill them over here need not to be lead into temptation over here. Sell cars. Learn tax accounting. Do a landscaping business. Be a dairy farmer. Teach ballet to youngsters. Work for the cable company. Get a PhD in theoretical physics. Just . . . not . . . police.
Buddy,
Is it that you believe vets aren’t smart enough to know the difference between the streets of Fallujah and the streets of any other city in America.
Have you ever been in the military? How is it that you know so much about military training? Have you even read one sitrep, ever?
Prove that it makes them unsuitable to do such a job. This is where you have to have evidence that shows that combat veterans are more likely to abuse their powers as a police officer, not just your “common sense”. Show me all your evidence, instead of your assumptions.
Replace ‘veterans’ in your argument with a racial or ethnic or religious group – would you still make the argument without anything more than ‘common sense’ to support it?
Lousy comparison. Combat veterans are trained to kill the enemy and to not mind doing collateral damage. Racial groups? No. Ethnic groups? Again, no.
Having a certain set of life experience may make you inappropriate for some jobs. It would probably be easy for, say, Professor Turley to tell the folks at Wal*Mart that he really wanted to be a greeter and would stick with the job and not cause trouble. Still, they would probably not hire him (at least if he was honest on his resume).
I am not saying that combat totally ruins a person or makes the person a monster. That isn’t true. It just renders the person unsuitable to be doing a highly similar (yet critically and crucially different) job here on the streets of America.
Slarti,
They have now started firing Rubber Bullets, Bean Bags and Taser Guns. I have talked to some people that were arrested last year and one person got hit by 2 of the three. They won’t have to worry to much as that area has been taken over under the power of ED to put upscale stuff there.
When I was in Austin, I was at a friends house a coop. She (imagine that) had a room that over looked Frat Row. We were doing what we did do in college and watch one of the Grreks shoot off fireworks under a few of the cars in the parking lot.
The next thing you know one car get set on fire and before it was over I think 5 or 6 Porsche’s, Alfa Romeo and a Ferrari were toast. It was fun to watch especially if you were toasted too. I am sure daddy bought em all new ones.