To the delight of civil libertarians and libertarians alike, the Canadian courts have been leading the world in dealing with conflicts between privacy principles and morality legislation. I am serving as an expert in the review of Canadian polygamy laws in British Columbia. In the meantime, the Ontario Superior Court may allow three prostitution laws to die this Saturday.
In September, the Court struck down the laws. The federal government is charging that this is nothing short of a “social experiment unprecedented in this country.” However, it is also a frank acknowledgment that consenting adults came engage in sex for money as a consensual choice. Currently, an individual can have sex with any number of partners but can be arrested if they accept anything of value in exchange for sex. They can receive gifts as part of a “relationship” no matter how fleeting but not as payment.
The Court previously noted that criminal laws force prostitutes in the shadows where they are easy prey for abuse and even homicides. Once legal, protections and regulations can apply to the world’s oldest profession. With the demise of the laws, street walking will be legal.
Source: Star
Jonathan Turley
kay I have read more on prostitution the last few days than I ever have. The one thing that seems consistent is that there is an increase in under age prostitutes, drugs and violence in the areas where it is allowed like the red light district in Amsterdam.
Someone emailed me that in Costa Rico prostitution is legal but pimping is not.
Tony C,
Sorry … I meant to include the post date and time of the anon nurse posting to which I was referring
anon nurse November 26, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Tony C
Interesting thought process and I certainly know quite a few women who have “sold” themselves to men through the marriage contract and men who have willingly paid to cement that contract. I also can see the correlation between male preening in other species and the human male’s similar behavior in attracting the female.
However, my concern is for those women, girls/boys, tricked into, sold into, or by other means and circumstances forced into prostitution.
So … “Raised in that culture, it is not surprising that some men and some women take the mutual logical short-cut of sex for pay, and I don’t think those willing to do that should be considered criminals at all.” I question the premise you have presented based on one word within your last statement … the word “willing”. And I ask, “How do we address the fact that many are in prostitution unwillingly?
In asking that question I am not attempting to start an argument but genuinely asking you if, based on your thought process, there is a role for criminal law for those who are unwilling prostitutes; Those who have been victimized by the sex trade. In other words, what do you think of the Swedish plan that anon nurse mentioned?
Dear James
I called a woman with a good resume that seemed like she could write text about computer systems. She said she doesn’t represent plaintiffs ever and knows no one in DC who does. She referred me to the website of the DC Bar. I searched there on the term “plaintiffs” and found no one that does federal cases. A law professor referred me to a legal clinic. I called them and they said they don’t take federal cases at all ever.
In the meantime, I decided to write a draft complaint so I could see if I could get a lawyer based on that or alternately file it PRO SE. I read USDOJ.gov and I figured out that every time a person is taken into custody or transferred to a different agency they are supposed to be “booked”. Booking procedure requires both the taking of finger prints and the identification of criminal charges. DOJ published on the Federal Register that people are only “booked” if and only if there are criminal charges against them. My fingerprints were taken and I was brought into custody without identification of criminal charges against me. They did this by ignoring Justice/USM 005, Justice/USM 006 and Justice/USM 007, the modern systems, and instead using the offense codes that are in the Prisoner Tracking System. I got the offense codes for the PTS and found that they have no correlation at all to the Federal Code. They list as federal offenses receipt of an abortion “Submission Abortional Act”, failure to move on, “Frequent House Ill Fame”, “Liquor –Possess” , “obscenity”, “sedition”, and code “0099” — description “unknown” offense. I’m surprised they don’t list runaway slave. So these show claims under 5 USC 552a for violation of subsections e(9), e(10) and /or e(11). So if you know a lawyer in any location who might be interested in billing the government to write about their computer systems by quoting the government, tell them to contact me. I don’t want just any old lawyer either. I want one who is smart and honest. A Privacy Act claim under e(11) should be cut and dried because there was no publication on the Federal Register that what I did might be a basis for a criminal charge. In fact there is a federal misdemeanor violation for failure to appear but only if they were subpoanaed, which I was not. Anyway, if there is a criminal charge they have to file a written document telling you what it is but they didn’t do that and the U.S. Attorney said they didn’t participate and weren’t involved. So that was unpublished procedure and the U.S. code prohibits DOJ from disadvantaging citizens based on unpublished procedure.
Dear Tony C
Why don’t you find a non eloquent happy former hooker from Nevada to bolster your theory that prostitution should be legal? According to Wikipedia there are about 300 licensed prostitutes operating in Nevada at any given time. This has been going on for over 30 years. So there must be at least several thousand former licensed Nevada prostitutes and the state has a list of their names. So why don’t you find a few to testify as to their great experiences as licensed prostitutes in Nevada?
Prostitution is just one extreme in a spectrum of behaviors our culture encourages, that both men and women encourage. There is, in fact, a biological basis for that behavior, the disparity in the consequences of mating and reproduction.
But the biological basis aside, men bring gifts of flowers, food, clothing and jewelry to women, men flash cash and prestige and wear expensive clothing and spend tons of money on dates to demonstrate they are worthy mates.
Zales commercials work because we are wired (by culture or genetics) to accept the premise: Male brings a diamond, women swoons or cries in happiness and embraces or kisses him (initiates mating).
That is our culture, like it or not. It is reflected in nearly every print ad, TV ad, movie and radio ad, women are courted and men do the courting with gifts and dates and meals, preferably while demonstrating they are rich, famous and fit.
Prostitution is just a short cut distillation of that culture; the “gifts” are converted into cash and the reward is immediate intercourse. In my opinion it isn’t that much different, I know many a male has spent over $500 courting a (not rich, not famous) female before achieving intercourse.
I suspect the number of males that have done that outnumber the heterosexual females that have done that about 100 to 1.
That culture is there and isn’t going to change, it is reflected in virtually every society around the world. Exceptions may exist, but the general expectation of *both* men and women is that it is the men that pay to play, not the women.
Raised in that culture, it is not surprising that some men and some women take the mutual logical short-cut of sex for pay, and I don’t think those willing to do that should be considered criminals at all.
@Kay: FYI, a “spokesmodel” is a kind word for the profession of eye candy. A spokesmodel is the pretty girl that stands next to the car. At a trade show, they are the girls in the string bikinis handing out cards to visit the condo-share booth, or otherwise luring middle-aged men to take a survey or enter a drawing for a sports car.
They aren’t authorized to do anything but flirt, smile, and say some canned lines, the whole point is to deliver the mark to a real salesman that isn’t pretty enough to get people to the booth.
It pays better now than it once did; my daughter mentioned several years ago that a former employee of ours (I funded a business my daughter ran) was earning $250/day for a boat show weekend.
Spokesmodel isn’t the kind of gig where the girls are expected to be eloquent.
kay,
One more point, getting back to “why it’s a bad idea for non-specialists to provide legal advice” is this:
That’s not a lawsuit.
In terms of the unauthorized practice of law? Still counts.
Pardon.
“condescending and blatantly ignorant ‘anyone can do it’ bullshit”
Just to be clear.
Run along now.
kay,
I don’t appreciate your condescending “anyone can do it” bullshit. So I guess that makes us even.
Run along now.
kay,
I’ll add my own two cents, in the vein of “get a lawyer”: even if you have some legitimate claims somewhere, the way you’re going about pursuing them is pissing off judges. A lawyer could help you figure out which claims are non-starters, which have enough merit to possibly pursue, and how to go about presenting them cogently to the court.
kay,
I think BIL has already answered you in this thread:
Because I’ve told you numerous times, I am not going to be your attorney. What I know about your suits is what you’ve told me and based on what you’ve told me, I’ve repeatedly advised you to seek out an attorney. Just like the other lawyers here who have addressed you have advised you to do.
PS BIL
I didn’t get a judgement as defined in here:
A treatise on the law of judgments: Including all final determinations of … By Abraham Clark Freeman
Bil
I don’t appreciate your condescending “run along now”. That is rude.
Since you are so smart, why don’t you advise me on a pending appeal of a judicial misconduct complaint in the 8th Circuit? That’s not a lawsuit.
I complained that the partner of a lawfirm engaged in a conspiracy of witness intimidation with the stated purpose of affecting a federal civil lawsuit. I stated 42 section 1985(2) as a cause of action.
The Supreme Court has already ruled,
“The gist of the wrong at which § 1985(2) is directed is not deprivation of property, but intimidation or retaliation against witnesses in federal-court proceedings. The terms “injured in his person or property” define the harm that the victim may suffer as a result of the conspiracy to intimidate or retaliate.” Haddle v. Garrison, 525 U.S. 121, 119 S.Ct. 489, 142 L.Ed.2d 502 (U.S. 12/14/1998).
The judge dismissed the case on the sole stated basis that I didn’t have a law degree and he also declined to appoint counsel for us. The law-firm was the largest law-firm in the metropolitan area and it is safe to say that they weren’t exactly bending over backwards to make sure that that didn’t intimidate anyone.
I filed a judicial misconduct complaint. The chief judge ruled that dismissing a case on the basis on who the complaining party is or what they studied in school is a decision on the merits.
So the issue goes to the law of judgments. Is a judgment valid if it dismisses a case but doesn’t cite one of the categories of Rule 12? But, is even asking about what a valid judgment consists of addressing the merits of the case? Will I win this appeal if I quote Black on Judgments?
http://www.amazon.com/Treatise-Law-Judgments-Set/dp/1575882108
Maybe saying less is actually more and I should just point out that a judgment that doesn’t reference the law is a violation of the Rules Enabling Act…. what do you think or is that a secret? Or do you want to claim that you can’t give your opinion on a legal matter but that you can make blind swipes at me?
kay,
You represented yourself – without adequate training and knowledge – and you saw how well that worked out.
Klang!
Like I said, you’re entitled to your opinion no matter how ill informed and ignorant. Just don’t expect people who are informed and competent to take you seriously because they won’t.
I suggest you try your “anybody can do it” shtick next time you’re in hospital.
See how well that works out for you.
Run along now.
lottakatz,
I’ll raise you a How I Met Your Mother quotation:
Barney: What, you have some puritanical hang-up about prostitution? Dude, it’s the world’s oldest profession!
Marshall: You really think that’s true?
Barney: Ohh, yeah. I bet even Cro-Magnons used to give cave hookers like, an extra fish for putting out
Marshall: Uh huh, so then the oldest profession would be fisherman. Kaboom! You’ve been lawyered.
Dear BIL
Actually in all sorts of endeavors one thing that helps is different perspectives. I have a different perspective because of my experience as a USCourts User. That is completely different than your experience as a vendor of legal services. Plus my background seems to be different than yours, although we don’t know much about you except that you are a lawyer who has never been to a prostitute. Did I get that right?
If lawyers are doing such a great job of running USCourts, then why don’t they do satisfaction surveys and exit interviews and prove it?
Personally, I think court systems would benefit from hiring a lot of non lawyers with special expertise. The Courts are important especially when there are as many transitions in society as are going on now. They should staff up to meet the needs of the population. They should have computer experts, survey designers, language specialists, etc. They should use the technology available. They could bring in unusual expertise by video conference.
I think they should do cold-case work too.
Jim Charlton: “I fail to see what all the fuss is about here. The ” oldest profession ” should be legalized, and regulated,…”
I agree but phrasing it that way takes me back to Cincinnati, WKRP in Cincinnati in fact, and this quote which never fails to make me laugh:
“I’ll Take Romance” [4.15]
Les: Are you trying to tell me that I’m not worthy of Lorraine?
Jennifer: No, I’m trying to tell you that Lorraine is not worthy of you.
Les: She cost $200.
Jennifer: No, she charges $200. Les, I’m talking about the oldest profession.
Les: Lorraine’s a farmer?
Law is a big area that’s for sure. I tried buying legal advice on-line and when I was asking them questions they said they didn’t know. Doctors don’t know all medicine either.
Another thing that surprised me is looking at documents. I am supposed to be a smart observant person but I found going back and looking at documents that I had looked at before, I noticed new points.
For the reasons you expressed, though, I love dicta and block quotes. I like to go from one to the next with as little of my speech as possible.
I can paraphrase though: how does this sound?
Both the Supreme Court and the Circuit of the District of Columbia have ruled that governments have liability for the actions of their subordinates when there is informal policymaking or deliberate indifference.
See Monell v. Department of Social Services 436 U.S. 658 and Josiah Haynesworth and Fred Hancock v. Frank P. Miller 820 F.2d 1245.
The idea that an untrained person could represent themselves as capable of giving legal advice is even more revolting.
The job requires specialized training, not just your opine of linguistics and semantics, kay. You are no more qualified to give someone legal advice than you are to pilot the space shuttle. The very idea that you think you are says a whole lot more about you than you realize and it’s not very flattering. Even being jailed didn’t teach you that you don’t know what you are talking about in re the law. That requires a special kind of density.