To the delight of civil libertarians and libertarians alike, the Canadian courts have been leading the world in dealing with conflicts between privacy principles and morality legislation. I am serving as an expert in the review of Canadian polygamy laws in British Columbia. In the meantime, the Ontario Superior Court may allow three prostitution laws to die this Saturday.
In September, the Court struck down the laws. The federal government is charging that this is nothing short of a “social experiment unprecedented in this country.” However, it is also a frank acknowledgment that consenting adults came engage in sex for money as a consensual choice. Currently, an individual can have sex with any number of partners but can be arrested if they accept anything of value in exchange for sex. They can receive gifts as part of a “relationship” no matter how fleeting but not as payment.
The Court previously noted that criminal laws force prostitutes in the shadows where they are easy prey for abuse and even homicides. Once legal, protections and regulations can apply to the world’s oldest profession. With the demise of the laws, street walking will be legal.
Source: Star
Jonathan Turley
@Ay….Hello, and thank-you.
” The state doesn’t pass laws to make sure doctors are “happy,” in fact some have committed suicide. The state has no right to control somebody’s life to ensure somebody else’s idea of “happy,” or “productive,” or whatever is enforced. Society doesn’t own me or you, their control over us is (at least theoretically) limited to stopping us from harming others. ”
TonyC.
@ TonyC,
The difficulty that I continue to have with this argument is that of ” choice of action “. I do not believe that anyone could argue that there is an occupation on this planet that does not hold some element of danger. I sustained a permanent back injury when I was side rear ended in my car by a drunk driver while I was travelling from one client’s home to another ( thank goodness for seatbelt laws as I have no doubt that I would not have been wearing one in this accident if that law did not exsist ). Still, I choose to return to my place of employment every day, risk the increased chance of another car accident
( due to the frequent travel required ) and the increased chance of being physically injured by people who may be experiencing symptoms of psychosis. If, at any time, I feel that I may be walking into a dangerous situation I have choice of action still. I can choose not to walk into that situation alone or at all. If I unknowingly walk into a dangerous situation there are other staff aware of where I am and when I should be returning, I carry an agency paid cell phone, and, if possible, I can walk out of the situation the moment my ” danger detectors ” go off. A sex woeker, more times than not, does not have these choices available to him/her.
All that being said, I have little doubt that the prostitution laws, here in Ontario, will be decriminalized in spring ’11. My hope is that the people working in he trade will get the protection that they believe they will. Unfortunately, given the current economic situation, they will likely get nothing more than a false sense of safety.
{ I also do not believe that ” Hookers are Us ” is really a hooker }.
Just like you didn’t find a judge’s order legal authority either, did you, kay?
How’d that work out for you again?
@Tony C
No offense but I don’t find that website to be a legal authority. I am looking for a federal law. Federal law says that U.S. Citizens cannot be imprisoned by their government without a statute passed by Congress. Otherwise judges could imprison men and women who refused to have sex with them (since we are on this prostitution blog). Got Law?
@Buddha: That’s a pretty cool website (FindLaw). Thanks, Buddha!
@Kay: As I said I was pretty sure it had to be or the system would be overwhelmed. Whether it is a ‘crime’ or not, it is punishable by fines and prison, and that is enough for me.
http://public.findlaw.com/library/legal-system/civil-contempt-of-court.html
It doesn’t matter what Tony thinks, kay. No offense, Tony.
@Tony
Do you think it is a crime to disobey a direct order of a judge?
Same thing with helmet laws.
It’s stupid to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. It’s well established that it’s not against the law to be stupid. A ticket for the fool who chooses to ride without a helmet is simply taxation without representation.
@Kay: I will take your refusal to answer as an affirmative, on disobeying a direct order from a judge. End of story.
@Kay: You have to get a license to drive a regular car too, but at least the state can claim that the INTENT of the law is to protect other drivers, and the same for the tat artist, or a nurse that puts a needle into you, or a doctor. There is no penalty in the law, no fine or prison time or even required report (that I am aware of), if a tat artist accidentally sticks himself. You cannot hold yourself liable and sue yourself for hurting yourself.
Businesses aren’t allowed to harm their employees, either, or complete strangers, or society (pollution laws, nuisance laws). How is any of that inconsistent with the right of the state to prevent one person (or entity) from harming another?
The state doesn’t pass laws to make sure doctors are “happy,” in fact some have committed suicide. The state has no right to control somebody’s life to ensure somebody else’s idea of “happy,” or “productive,” or whatever is enforced. Society doesn’t own me or you, their control over us is (at least theoretically) limited to stopping us from harming others.
There are exceptions in existing law that I disagree with; like seat belt laws (for adults). I don’t think the state has any valid reason to force me to protect myself from harm. I wear my seat belt because it does protect me, my argument is that I don’t see how the state can fine me if I do not, I think that is an overreach of government.
@Tony C
You have to prove competence to get a commercial driver’s license or to give tatoos. Those competency exams protect the drivers of the rig as well as the public from the greater difficulty of safely driving a big rig as compared to an automobile. Competency protects the person using the needles to give tatoos from giving themselves AIDS.
There is a big section in the Idaho revised statutes about various licensing and as we discussed earlier, prostitution and brothels weren’t included in that section.
Other businesses are regulated and inspected to ensure the safety of employees, not just customers.
@Kay:
Did you or did you not disobey a direct order from a judge? Any order of any kind.
And don’t pretend you are a lawyer and give me all kinds of sections of statutes and paragraphs and sub-paragraphs about why you had the right, I don’t care. Just answer the question:
Did you or did you not disobey a direct order from a judge? Any order of any kind.
@Kay: Our government does not conduct competency tests for people’s professions. When the conduct tests for a profession it is to ensure the candidate will not endanger the public; thus STD testing.
When a restaurant is inspected, it is to make sure the cooks will not make customers sick, won’t start fires, have sufficient ventilation for coooking, that there is an escape route for customers and employees in case of fire, and for other safety concerns.
It is the government’s job to prevent a business from harming the public, it is not the government’s job to make sure a restaurant is prosperous and the owners will be financially successful and happy. The inspectors do not sample the menu and advise the owners on what will sell, or outlaw the sale of skimpy sandwiches or tasteless soup.
For a legal prostitute in Nevada it is not the government’s job to make any determination as to whether she would be happier as a limo driver or cashier. The government has no mandate to ensure people are happy with their choices; in fact the opposite. It has a mandate to prevent one person from harming another. In the case of prostitutes harming others, a unique way they may do that (i.e. not assault or robbery) is through sexually transmitted disease, and that is why they are tested for that.
Citizens are given a presumption of competence. Choosing a legal job (like prostitution in Nevada) does not give the government cause to suspect or test for incompetency; they have no right to do so. It is a free country, anybody can work any legal job for which they can get themselves hired, and why they do it or whether they could do something else is none of anybody’s business, and in particular none of the government’s business.
@Annie: I imagine that may be true. Voluntary painful sex is not a crime. Assault or rape (meaning involuntary) is already a crime and should be prosecuted. Legalizing prostitution would pave the way for prostitutes to get such crimes prosecuted and to recover monetary damages in civil suits, which it is difficult for them to do now without either perjuring themselves or admitting to committing a crime (prostitution) themselves.
@Tony C
The House of Representatives has a word search. There is a boolean search too. For instance “Civil contempt” appears as a phrase when entered as “Civil ADJ contempt”. Since Nottingham wrote that I was imprisoned for filing papers in other federal courts, please find a statute allowing “punish” AND “imprison”, related to that sort of behavior.
One thing I don’t understand about the Nevada procedure is that it doesn’t seem that there is any verification about anything about the prostitute other than whether she has been tested for Std and is not a minor. It sounds like they are perfectly able to require the prostitutes to actually show up for a government health evaluation that would show whether or not they can read, whether or not they have broken bones, whether they have knocked out teeth, whether they have urgent unmet medical needs such as glasses or repair of cavities, whether they can hear, whether they have a safe place to keep their money, whether their children are aware of and /or exposed to the trade and the Johns, whether they meet Johns in other locations besides licensed brothels but that the State has apparently chosen not to collect data related to these factors.
I do have a pending open records request w State of Nevada though so maybe they will send a report filled with tables of statistics. Maybe they will have analyzed the compensation of the licensed prostitutes and prove that on average they earn “x” amount more than they would have in “y” profession.
Maybe the State of Nevada will have evaluated licensed prostitutes as to their fitness in other jobs. A smart person with good eyesight and good hearing could be a valuable asset as a casino doing some sort of gaming function — dealing, running cash counters etc., couldn’t they? They could also drive a limo, right? Or take tourists on hot air balloon rides, right? How much do those jobs pay in Nevada? More or less than licensed prostitution?
@Kay: What’s the point? You are not convinced by either facts or logic. Whatever gets locked in your head is there to stay no matter what reality might be. I think it is entirely possible you have a mental disability.
@AY: Just based on what she has said, I think Kay was trying to cash in on the 15-minutes-of-fame celebrity culture by filing some crazy lawsuit and hoping for publicity. I think she was aiming for her Joe the Plumber moment. Her lawsuit was about some crazy conspiracy scheme, she disobeyed some kind of direct order from a judge based on her own conclusion that she’s just as good as any lawyer and by her reading she was entitled to ignore a direct court order, and then it all backfired on her.
I think we’ve all done stupid shit that cost us a lot; at least I have. I also think Kay just can’t get over hers.
Prostitutes do get their fair share of injuries both from the pimps and the clients whose fix is violent sex.
They published on-line that [their] CEO, since inception, was a D.C. Attorney.
where is the grammar corrector?
His name was Jerome C. Schaefer. I filed printouts of the Mutual Insurance of Bermuda web site referring to Schaefer in PACER in Colorado. Should I find the document number?
I don’t think this insurance company is actively doing business under that name anymore. I looked for them on-line in Bermuda just recently and didn’t find them.
Sorry, more posts while I was responding.
@Tony C you write “Canadian hookers earn an average of $125 a trick.” please support w evidence