In a discovery that is being called “the smoking gun,” Irish media is reporting that they have a 1997 letter from the Vatican warning Ireland’s Catholic bishops not to report all suspected child-abuse cases to police. This was from 1997 — less then 13 years ago in the midst of the scandal. This occurred during the tenure of Pope John Paul II.
The letter appears to contradict denials from Vatican officials that they ever discouraged reporting child abuse to the police.
The letter is from the late Archbishop Luciano Storero, who served as Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic Nuncio to Ireland (his top diplomat to that country). Storero warns that the policy of Irish bishops to report such crimes “gives rise to serious reservations of both a moral and canonical nature.” He reminds them that both allegations and punishment must be handled within the church and that this canon “must be meticulously followed.”
Source: Yahoo
Jonathan Turley
Chris,
thanks for the history lesson, but where is the action by the current Church to actually live the live of Christ? Would Christ continue to hide the identities of the priests who the Bishops know were/are pedophiles? When the Pope and Bishops actually start to report pedophiles to the police as they should, then let me know. You wanted to discuss reality, so when does the Vatican turn its own people in and why the decades long delay in many cases?
These recent posts bring to mind the story of Joan of Arc. In an apparently inexplicable historical mystery, she rose from complete obscurity to become in 1429 the Commander in Chief of the French Armies. She then defeated the English on the battlefield and installed the young King on his throne. Yet, on May 30, 1431, she was condemned to die on the stake by two ecclesiastical judges, Bishop Pierre Cauchon and the inquisitor Jean le Maistre. To this day, Cauchon’s name is a curse word in French and no one would dare to argue that his sins somehow canceled the good works of St. Joan in saving the French nation and the Church. By the way, if you are looking for a good book to read, I recommend Mark Twain’s Joan of Arc by Mark Twain. Very few people know about this book but he considered it one of his best. It was the fruit of 12 years of work, including extensive time in the French National Archives…Not known for his Catholic sympathies, Twain actually considered in the book the possibility that God might have intervened in human history through the works of Joan.
My point is that I agree with those who have said that the mystery of the Church is that it is at the same time holy and always in need of being purified. Through all of the events mentioned in the posts above, the Church was in need of purification. Yet, her good works also abounded. All too often, the history is caricatured to the point that the errors are magnified beyond all proportions and the good works essentially denied. For example, contrary to the implications in some of the postings above, the Crusades and the Inquisition were not responses to calls from the Pope to Catholics to kill everyone who disagreed with the Church. The Crusades were originally launched in response to a call from the Byzantine Empire for help against the expansion of the Muslim Turks into Anatolia. Furthermore, as mentioned above, the Inquisition had a political dimension that concerned social order in the Europe of several hundred years ago. Indeed, many people do not know that the infamous Spanish Inquisition, although staffed with clerics, was run under the authority of the Spanish government, not the Church. Concerning the Church’s role in WWII, I mentioned above the statements of the Rabbi of Rome thanking the Pope for his help and the statements of Pius XII condemning the Nazis. To disregard this evidence is to disregard the truth. I am not a student of the history of the “ratline”, but if Bishop Hudal did help ex-Nazis flee to South America (as claimed by Wikipedia), I would consider him no more than a “Cauchon” and I would not even be tempted to suggest that his evil cancels out the good work of the nuns in Rome who risked their lives hiding Jews during the war. I would say the same about the crusading butchers of Constantinople, Inquisitors who tortured prisoners and pederast priests – they are all Cauchons – but they can never erase or overshadow the good works of the Church in our civilization. Of course we can debate whether the Church took the proper stance in any number of historical events but let’s debate on a platform of reality, not a cartoon version of history.
I must close by returning to the apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary at Guadalupe. There is no logic in the statement above that because some people in the Middle Ages fraudulently sold pieces of wood as the True Cross, the apparition of Mary must also be a fraud. As mentioned, in 1979 the Church commissioned a scientific study of the image of the apparition left on the tilma (cactus cloak) of the peasant Juan Diego. Using infrared photography, the scientists concluded that, although many elements were added to the image at some later date, the composition of the original form was “inexplicable.” An ophthalmologist, Dr. Jose Aste Tonsmann, later enlarged an image of the Virgin’s eyes by 2500x and claimed to have found not only the aforementioned single figure, but images of all the witnesses present when the tilma as first revealed to the local Bishop in 1531, plus a small family group of mother, father, and a group of children, in the center of the Virgin’s eyes, fourteen persons in all. Don’t believe me-look it up for yourself. It is more evidence that God does intervene in human history to show us His love for us. When He did so personally and walked this earth he gave us a Church and He entrusted fallible servants with the power to run the Church. While out of love He left them with their free will (and the ability to choose to love Him or to do wrong), I believe that He also promised the grace of freedom from doctrinal error in matters of faith such as the promulgation of the Nicene Creed. Indeed, He said to Peter, an inveterate screw-up who later would deny his friend, “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the hell shall not prevail against it. “ Matthew 16:18.
No more activity?
I’ll add one last thought…
The fact that the RCC has not unequivocally denounced Hitler, a Catholic [in my understanding], has done much harm in current Jewish-Christian harmony and caused indescribable Jewish pain. Furthermore, all that the RCC may have done for Jews during the Shoah, and both before and after, can never discount all that they/we/I did not do.
It is in my opinion Christianity’s largest failure and blot on it’s history – among many. We made Jewish bondage in Egypt look like child’s play.
There are no words, but if there were… so sorry.
Mr. Spindell,
Your voice is priceless.
It’s time all the hurts and hard feelings come out, along with the facts. Obviously I’m ignorant and way over my head, but I value correction in spite of its sting.
“without any reference to the 50,000 yearly human sacrifices of the Aztecs to Huitzilopochtli”
So your point is that the Conquistadors and the accompanying missionaries were on a “Mission from God” to free those oppressed people?
“no serious historian can argue that the 9 million Mexicans who converted after the apparition of the Virgin Mary at Guadalupe in December 1531 were forced to do so.”
In the Aztecs you had a people that had just been vanquished, soldiers with weaponry that to them was heretofore inconceivable.
Their religion had been destroyed. They were now virtual slaves. I’m sure they would grasp at any straw. As far as knowing my history were you aware of the amount of relics being passed off as authentic in the middle ages, such as pieces of the “tru cross?” I think the Virgin of Guadalupe had the same authenticity as all those slivers of crosses, yet the people believed.
“my understanding is that its creed is completely consistent with the earlier Apostle’s Creed and in no way changed Jesus’ teaching.”
One can find a source citing all manner of things, especially where faith is concerned. your understanding is incorrect and don’t you think that the Council’s giving Jesus the same birthday as Mithra a little suspicious?
“The ‘black legend’ of the Inquisition has been the most successful of all historical propaganda offensives against the Catholic Church”
That you would think of the Inquisition as anything but a hideous desecration of your Faith is incredible. Perhaps though that is how you can rationalize pedophilia and not believe that the RCC was actively involved in covering it up.
“The so-called collaboration of the Church with the Nazis is another of many historical lies about the Church.”
Google “ratline” or Wiki it and then maybe enlighten yourself about the Church and the Nazi’s and what you’ll find by the way is less than half of the problem.
“If you are interested in some truth about the Crusades and the allegations about related persecutions of the Jews”
Of course I should accept a source from catholic.com over the hundreds of other sources that exist detailing the evils of the crusades.
Mr. Bouquet,
Sorry for showing up late to the party, I’m needed elsewhere at times and can’t always drop in.
First of all, thank you for your considered reply. Emotion is easy to give in to, and it sometimes overwhelms reason.
For my part, you bring up interesting points that are well-worth knowing and storing. I plead ignorant to much of what you wrote and I appreciate the correction and enlightenment.
In summation, what was simply unacceptable for me was the nature of the transgressions that took place in an institution that was devoted to the one I love. The emotion was raw and heartfelt, and the correction was long overdue. But I am relieved that it’s finally taking place and I’m sorry for the ugliness that exposes you to.
Friends,
On this law professor’s blog, I don’t think it is completely out of order to ask if you would be so kind as to provide some support for your statements –eg, 1) Pope Benedict “threatened punishment against those who would have exposed the crimes”; 2) the Pope personally “visited a living Hell on those least able to defend themselves”; 3) that from top to bottom the church had an “unofficial” policy of promoting child abuse. If you have examined the 1997 letter that is the subject of this discussion, you would know that it is NOT from Pope Benedict. Rather, it is from Archbishop Luciano Storero, who served as Apostolic Nuncio to Ireland under Pope John Paul II. Furthermore, it does not threaten punishment against anyone or instruct anyone to promote child abuse. Rather, it is dealing with the interaction of the canon law of that era and the civil law. I think those of us who have read the letter can agree that the words of letter appear to take the wrong approach but let’s not turn it into something it is not.
Furthermore, does it serve the truth to ignore the evidence that I gave above of the Pope’s personal concern for the victims of the crimes and the changes that have been made in official policy concerning abuse cases? Is it logical to conclude that because certain individuals acted badly (eg, Cardinal Law, Caesar Borgia, pedophile priests) the entire institution is rotten from “top to bottom” for all time? Is it appropriate to say that you would have “no remorse” if supportive, pious Catholic communities that are untouched by these depravities (and there are many) would be brought to extinction or that ordinary Catholics who worship God in peace and joy in their parishes are nothing more than “living sacrifices” offered up by the evil Roman Pontiff?
Finally, in response to my assertion that Catholic morality as expressed in the Catechism of the Church does not justify child abuse, Mr. Spindell lists certain alleged historical sins of the church – eg, the Crusades and the Inquisition. To his credit, he acknowledges that the Church has done many good things but he seems to conclude that the bad outweighs the good. I disagree and urge Mr. Spindell to consider the Church’s role in, for example:
1) the preservation of the wisdom of the Greeks and Romans by Catholic monks in the Dark Ages – see e.g., Crocker, Triumph: the Power and Glory of the Catholic Church (Three Rivers Press 2001), p. 90;
2) establishing hospitals to care for the sick – see e.g., the Catholic Encyclopedia at newadvent.org;
3) founding universities – see e.g., Catholic Encyclopedia at newadvent.org;
4) resurgence of scholarship in the Renaissance – see e.g., Carroll, the Glory of Christendom (Christendom Press 1993), pp. 562-563;
5) the development of western legal systems – see e.g., Woods, How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, pp. 198 and 201;
6) the salvation of souls into eternal happiness – see e.g., Matthew 16:19.
I would also urge Mr. Spindell to look a bit further into the depths of the topics on his list. For example:
1) I believe that the shibboleth that the overthrow of the Aztec empire by the conquistadors and their local allies was an act of pure evil “imperialism” is taught in every Junior High School in the nation, without any reference to the 50,000 yearly human sacrifices of the Aztecs to Huitzilopochtli, the Lover of Hearts and Drinker of Blood and Tezcatlipoca, the Lord of the Dark. See Carroll, the Cleaving of Christendom (Christendom Press 2000), p.23.
2) While there no doubt were forced conversions due to the excesses of some individuals, no serious historian can argue that the 9 million Mexicans who converted after the apparition of the Virgin Mary at Guadalupe in December 1531 were forced to do so. Id. at 615-626. (If you are tempted to dismiss this apparition as Catholic hocus pocus, I would urge you to read the 1979 report of Dr. Phillip Callahan, a research biophysicist, on the image Our Lady that was imprinted on the cloak of the Mexican peasant to whom she appeared.) I don’t
3) While I don’t pretend to be a scholar of the Nicene Council, my understanding is that its creed is completely consistent with the earlier Apostle’s Creed and in no way changed Jesus’ teaching. Crocker, Triumph: the Power and Glory of the Catholic Church (Three Rivers Press 2001), p. 56.
4) “The ‘black legend’ of the Inquisition has been the most successful of all historical propaganda offensives against the Catholic Church; and the difficulty of responding to it persuasively is vastly increased by the almost complete inability of modern man to understand how any society could regard a man’s religion as a matter of life and death. But in fact the heretic in Christendom [at that time] was in every sense of the word a revolutionary, as dangerous to public order and personal safety . . . as today’s terrorist. . . Though torture was used, contrary to legend it was infrequent and not lasting in its effects. Many of the accused were acquitted; many others were reconciled with the Church. In the fifty years (1227-1277) required to finally stamp out the Catharist heresy in southern France, there were no more than 5,000 executions, a small proportion of the total executed for crime during this period.” Carroll, The Glory of Christendom, pp. 217-218.
5) The so-called collaboration of the Church with the Nazis is another of many historical lies about the Church. I am interested if anyone might have any citations to sources that refute the scholarship in Jimmy Akin, “How Pius XII Protected the Jews” at catholic.com. This article notes that the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent the Pope a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: “The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world.”
The article notes, further that another Rabbi said that “in Rome we saw a list of 155 convents and monasteries—Italian, French, Spanish, English, American, and also German—mostly extraterritorial property of the Vatican . . . which sheltered throughout the German occupation some 5,000 Jews in Rome. No less than 3,000 Jews found refuge at one time at the Pope’s summer residence at Castel Gandolfo; sixty lived for nine months at the Jesuit Gregorian University, and half a dozen slept in the cellar of the Pontifical Bible Institute.” As the article notes in particular the Pope was not merely allowing Jews to be hidden in different church buildings around Rome. He was hiding them in the Vatican itself and in his own summer home, Castel Gandolfo. His success in protecting Italian Jews against the Nazis was remarkable. Lichten records that after the War was over it was determined that only 8,000 Jews were taken from Italy by the Nazis —far less than in other European countries. In June,1944, Pius XII sent a telegram to Admiral Miklos Horthy, the ruler of Hungary, and was able to halt the planned deportation of 800,000 Jews from that country.”
6) If you are interested in some truth about the Crusades and the allegations about related persecutions of the Jews , see the scholarship in Robert R. Lockwood’s, “Crusading for Truth” at catholic.com. As the article points out “ No serious historian of the Crusades would argue that Pope Innocent brought about or wanted the sack of Constantinople, but this Catholic urban legend remains. The simple fact is that the Pope explicitly begged them not to attack Constantinople; besides, the Crusaders paid little mind to a pope far away when there was plunder nearby. Though some argue that Innocent was privately pleased at Constantinople being brought back under Latin control, there is nothing in his actions that would lend credence to this. Three times he warned the Crusaders not to travel to Constantinople, he incessantly warned against any attack on Christians, and he complained bitterly after the fact about the ruin of the city. Catholic urban legends always have an anti-Catholic moral. The moral of this one is that the Catholic faith promotes zealotry, which leads only to intolerance and violence: ‘Just look at the carnage and bigotry associated with the Crusades.’ No real historian would make that case. Historians have and will disagree in interpreting the Crusades and their impact on European and Islamic life. But they would agree that we could do without the misinformation surrounding them. Like most Catholic urban legends, they are propaganda disguised as history.”
Brother bloggers, do some justice to the Truth! You can do better! Peace.
mespo for Pope!
Chris Bouquet:
The simple fact is that the man who, by “holy” policy, threatened punishment against those who would have exposed the crimes is the same man who shielded the perpetrators and then returned them to prey upon innocents under his care. The same “good man” also elevated Bernard Law to the Curia after he rose to be the leader of your Church by acclamation of the College of Cardinals. Take away the red vestments and you have a scene from Godfather II.
It should surprise no one that Pope Benedict XVI earned his stripes as the Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith before elevation to the throne of St. Peter. In more honest times, we called this secretariat what it is: The Inquisition.
Come talk to me about love, contrition, and forgiveness when you wrest control of the Church away from the man who specifically tried to cover up its horrific transgressions even as he visited a living Hell on those least able to defend themselves, and for whom the founder said “Suffer the little children to come to me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God.”
Suffer, indeed. If I ran that place, I’d triple the order of millstones!
“I think you also know that Catholic Christian morality does not justify or accept in any way the defilement mentioned in the awful report you quote above.”
Chris,
In reply to this and to your overall RCC defense my answers are simple:
The Inquisition which still has an operative office today.
The Crusades
The selling of indulgences as “get out of jail free” cards
Cesare Borgia as Pope
The forced conversions by missionaries accompanying genocidal imperialist soldiers around the world.
The Doctoring of Jesus’ message by Roman pagans at the Council of Nicaea, etc.
The persecution of Jews.
The Collaboration with Nazi war criminals via the “Rat Line” at the end of and after WWII.
Need I go further? While I do acknowledge that the RCC has indeed done many good things, in the end it has throughout history done much evil and acted in a manner opposite the teachings of their savior.
“I think you also know that Catholic Christian morality does not justify or accept in any way the defilement mentioned in the awful report you quote above.”
Except for when it does. All the way from the top. Not what has been stated as “official” policy, but what has been practiced (everyone makes mistakes) and protected (the rage inside will not subside).
My god Mr. Bouquet, the anger inside of me is such that if the Catholic “church” were to be brought to the verge of extinction, I would feel no pity or remorse. That’s because I’ve already given all of it to the victims and just don’t have any left for the perps and atmosphere that allowed it.
Furthermore, the 1,000’s and more that make up the body shouldn’t be vested in the trappings of any institution. And the notable ones among the clergy certainly didn’t become living sacrifices because of what an institution did for them, but rather in spite of it.
You find value in your institution. I find value in justice for the transgressions it committed.
In your own life, you might be surprised with the revelation that you’ll have to choose between the beautiful Nazarene and the “church”.
Welcome to the blog.
Your anger against the injustice of these unspeakable crimes is righteous and justified but I think you already know that the “good people” I was referring to above are the millions of Catholic bishops, priests and religious who never once in their lives even thought of committing such horrible crimes or of condoning them in any way. I am sure you would not argue that EVERY Catholic bishop, priest or religious who ever took vows in the past 2000 + years is guilty of these crimes. Further, you could not possibly argue that each and every one of 1 billion + Catholics that make up the Church are excusing this behavior! I think you also know that Catholic Christian morality does not justify or accept in any way the defilement mentioned in the awful report you quote above. See Catechism of the Catholic Church Secs. 2351-2356. Peace.
Chris Bouquet:
“The Good News is that He redeemed us and we are not doomed to eternal condemnation for our bad acts as long as we ask for His forgiveness and the forgiveness of those we harm, firmly resolve to sin no more and make proper reparations. For the reasons mentioned above, I think the Bishops are now doing this, albeit late. How depressing life would be if there was no redemption!”
*******************
Prepare to be depressed by the continuing cover-up of church sponsored crime and indecency. Here are the eyewitness accounts of the abused describing the harm inflicted by these “good” people. It’s from the Irish Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse (CICA)(2009):
7.129 In relation to one School, four witnesses gave detailed accounts of sexual abuse, including rape in all instances, by two or more Brothers and on one occasion along with an older resident. A witness from the second School, from which there were several reports, described being raped by three Brothers: ‘I was brought to the infirmary…they held me over the bed, they were animals….They penetrated me, I was bleeding’. Another witness reported he was abused twice weekly on particular days by two Brothers in the toilets off the dormitory:
One Brother kept watch while the other abused me …(sexually)… then they changed over. Every time it ended with a severe beating. When I told the priest in Confession, he called me a liar. I never spoke about it again.
I would have to go into his …(Br X’s)… room every time he wanted. You’d get a hiding if you didn’t, and he’d make me do it …(masturbate)… to him. One night I didn’t …(masturbate him)… and there was another Brother there who held me down and they hit me with a hurley and they burst my fingers …displayed scar….
…
7.232 Witnesses reported being particularly fearful at night as they listened to residents screaming in cloakrooms, dormitories or in a staff member’s bedroom while they were being abused. Witnesses were conscious that co-residents whom they described as orphans had a particularly difficult time:
The orphan children, they had it bad. I knew …(who they were)… by the size of them, I’d ask them and they’d say they come from …named institution…. They were there from an early age. You’d hear the screams from the room where Br …X… would be abusing them.
There was one night, I wasn’t long there and I seen one of the Brothers on the bed with one of the young boys … and I heard the young lad screaming crying and Br …X… said to me “if you don’t mind your own business you’ll get the same”. … I heard kids screaming and you know they are getting abused and that’s a nightmare in anybody’s mind. You are going to try and break out. … So there was no way I was going to let that happen to me…. I remember one boy and he was bleeding from the back passage and I made up my mind, there was no way it …(anal rape)… was going to happen to me. … That used to play on my mind.
“This is the kind of abuse that the Church has practiced and concealed since time out of memory. Even the CICA report declined to name the offending priests due to pressure from the Vatican. The cover-up of these atrocities continues.” (from Sam Harris piece, Vatican Justice).
What morality could justify this defilement? What religion excuse these excesses? What person with a soul accept confraternity with this depravity?
Chris Bouquet:
“Where would we be without these good and faithful servants? It is disappointing that the life work of these good people, who look with as much repugnance on the sins of the bad actors as we do, is disrespected in many of these discussions.”
*********************
Well, respect is a complex topic. It involves admiration for deeds done and the motives for those deeds. Giving money to the poor to insure their fealty to some nefarious purpose, as Hamas does, is deserving of no respect, while doing the same thing for reasons of compassion deserve total respect.
One wonders if the “good” people you refer to performed their “good” acts out of innate altruim or simply out of fear of eternal damnation. If for reasons of the former what need had they of their religion; if, on account of the latter, isn’t it merely self-protection? And if mere self-protection are they “good” or merely self-serving?
One of the problems with religion is that it gives good people silly reasons for good deeds when better and more noble ones already exist. Another problem is that it renders doers of good deeds suspect.
Yep. Nate once again is spot on. Jesus was a wise teacher and there are lessons to be learned if you consider the Bible in its proper context as a book of parables.
However, what his followers have done in his name or done and used his name for cover?
History shows “wise” is not the appropriate adjective for their actions.
“Reprehensible”, “self-serving” and “vile” do leap to mind though.
Mr. Bouquet,
“Yet, I fear that some may have an agenda to use this scandal and tragedy as a weapon to destroy the Church or an opportunity to indulge a personal prejudice against her teachings.”
2,000 years after the beautiful Nazarene lived his life, his legend only continues to grow. Your fears are unfounded.
The amount and level of penance that justice requires in this particular situation, and the loathing and fear that that instills in your institution and its members, is another matter altogether.
I couldn’t agree more about applying the WWJD test to this matter and I don’t think it is too late for any of us, inside or outside of the Church, to reform our ways and act in the manner that He would want us to act. The Good News is that He redeemed us and we are not doomed to eternal condemnation for our bad acts as long as we ask for His forgiveness and the forgiveness of those we harm, firmly resolve to sin no more and make proper reparations. For the reasons mentioned above, I think the Bishops are now doing this, albeit late. How depressing life would be if there was no redemption! Another piece of Good News that is often lost in discussions like this is the fruits of the work of millions of good and dedicated priests and religious who have given their lives to and for us, from the martyrs of the early church to our own St. Elizabeth Ann Seton to our parish priests who spend countless hours hearing our confessions, listening to our problems baptizing our children, ministering to the poor. Where would we be without these good and faithful servants? It is disappointing that the life work of these good people, who look with as much repugnance on the sins of the bad actors as we do, is disrespected in many of these discussions.
PS- For those interested in understanding the truth of the historical record, here is a link concerning the Vatican’s explanation of the 1997 letter:
http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/new.php?id=2472
Ah, who cares…
It’s probably close enough to a miracle for the pope, declare him wholy already.
Chris Bouquet:
Laudable sentiments indeed, Chris, but too little, too late. The problem is not merely the cover-up of abuse but the culture of submission that made these crimes an on-going enterprise. The Church has clothed itself with notions of omniscience and infallibility and cowled these victims into silence. This was institutional corruption at the highest levels and nothing short of a purge from the top will clean the mess. That Bernard Law still enjoys the protection of the Vatican for his transgressions and does so from a post of high importance mitigates against any notion of contrition by the Church. The words “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” should cause everyone in the Curia to shudder every time they pass the former Cardinal of Boston in the hallways.
Chris B.,
How many decades did it take for the Bishops to “take a stand”? How many of the perps did they turn in from the past once they decided to “take a stand”? It isn’t brave or moral to do the right thing when you have been lying to your congregation for decades. How many Bishops have been prosecuted for hiding felons or for withholding information on felons in their employ prior to this decision to cooperate with authorities? Doesn’t charity begin at home? When the Pope and the US Bishops actually turn in the past abusers, then maybe their charitable works will count for something. One more thing, WWJD?