Submitted by: Mike Spindell, guest blogger
Most people who regularly visit this blog know that I am Jewish. While I am not what one would call a pious Jew, being a Deist in outlook, I have always been very proud of my ethnicity and of the religion, which plays a central part in it. From their infancy, my children were immersed in Judaism both through education and by our family regularly taking part in Jewish Rituals, including regular Synagogue attendance. Where I part personally from normative Judaism is that I view the Torah, The Five Books of Moses, as primarily allegory with some real history thrown in. To me it is a work of some wise and some not so wise men, not the writings of God. I believe and have seen demonstrated in many families though, that the Torah and its 613 Commandments can serve as blueprint for living a fulfilling life.
The issue becomes complicated when it comes to my feelings about Israel. To me the existence ofI srael is a necessity for Jews to have a future in this world and if it comes to it, a final haven to make our last stand. I am an American first, so I would not willingly emigrate away from the country of my birth, unless those who hate Jews come to power. Contrary to the opinion of many, Jews are far from being a homogeneous ethnicity/religion. One cannot for instance refer to being an Orthodox Jew with any precision of description since that movement is in itself splintered on many details of interpretation. This is true of the other main branches of Judaism: Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionism. Perhaps it is because there is no central Jewish religious authority speaking for all Jews, as much as organizations like ADL, AIPAC, et. al. would claim to, that the range of Jewish opinion is so wide on so many subjects.
This brings me to an article I read at the PublicEye.org titled: “The New Christian Zionism and the Jews”. Its’ thesis is that many Jewish supporters of Israel and the current Israeli government have allied themselves with Christian Fundamentalists whose “love” for Israel and Jews come from the wish to fulfill the prophecies of The Book of Revelations, where in fact Jews not willing to accept Jesus, will die in a horrid holocaust. This trend has been one disturbing me for a long time. I have watched Jews and Israeli’s embrace Fundamentalist Christian support, in what to me is a shortsighted and irrational policy. This could be justified by saying that a country takes its allies where one can get them. Sometimes what seems an example of realpolitik is merely an instance of dangerously narrow opportunism, as I will elaborate.
“In late October, Holocaust survivor and Nobel Peace laureate Elie Wiesel spoke at a Christians United for Israel (CUFI) event hosted by the controversial Christian Zionist John Hagee at hisCornerstoneChurchinSan Antonio,Texas. Internationally broadcast on GodTV, Hagee presented $9 million in donations to 29 Israeli andU.S.Jewish organizations. Hagee is one of the world’s most successful televangelists and a prolific author who prophesizes that apocalyptic wars and the migration of Jews to the holy land will help trigger the return of Jesus and his thousand-year reign on earth.
Wiesel joins a long list of Jews and Israelis who show no discomfort at being in the center of someone else’s apocalyptic religious vision. Making common cause with Christian Zionists are the lobby group American Israel Political Action Committee, which hosted Hagee as a conference keynote speaker in 2007, and Israeli ambassador Michael Oren, who attended a CUFI summit last July.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the country, a very different kind of “pro-Israel” gathering was taking place.J Street, the “pro-peace, pro-Israel” lobby group, was holding its first national conference with panels featuring American, Israeli and Palestinian speakers. Hundreds gathered in the ballroom of the Washington D.C. Grand e wayHyatt for the conference, whose program explicitly stated thatJ Streetaims to challenge “right-wing Christian Zionists” – the very people Wiesel was addressing.”
http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v24n4/jews-new-christian-zionism.html
The above was the opening of the article I linked below it and it is the centerpiece of this post. My assumption is that you would read it, so I am writing this as if the full discussion has been laid out, in the interests of brevity. The current Israeli Government headed by Bibi Netanyahu is I believe wrong in its approach to the settlement of the ongoing conflict. Their power base is an amalgam of Orthodox Jews and settlers on the West Bank, which is pretty much the same thing. The aims of this government date back to the founding of the Likud Party and Menachem Begin. This party skewed Israel away from its original heritage and moved it towards a more nationalistic stance, which also was one embracing a philosophy that was economically/politically conservative. They actively sought and received the support of the more extreme elements of Jewish Orthodoxy, that except for the crucial issue of Jesus, are philosophically akin to Christian Fundamentalists. In my opinion, Likud’s rise to power reflects the same kind of public attitude that also brings Republican’s to power in the U.S.. That is a false perception of strength through militancy and an economic system favoring Corporate interests disguised as freedom.
Begin, in the 70’s began building settlements in the West Bank as a means of justifying the perpetual occupation of these areas. Through the years this policy has continued, despite the fact that world opinion sees the only viable solution being a “two state” result. Two discrete states represent to me the only viable answer to this ongoing conflict and the only one that really coincides with I believe to be Jewish values. I further feel that it is the only way to ensure Israel’s future viability, since no characteristically Jewish State can exist with apartheid.
The agenda of the fundamentalist Christians, however, is to encourage no viable solution, but to encourage the ongoing violent struggle. This is of course to bring on the “Glorious End Times” and Jesus return. They are for the existence of Israel only up until Armageddon and then God help those Jews who don’t see the light and convert. As an outsider to Christianity, The Book of Revelations has always seemed to me to be the demented vision of a Christian persecuted by the Romans. Written perhaps 150 years after Jesus it is notable for its’ bloody and turgid style, which is at odds with both the Gospels and other writings of the Christian Canon. It was included in the Canon though at the council of Nicaea, 320 CE, because it serves as a bogeyman tale to keep the faithful in line. It presents a wholly different Jesus than the being presented in the Gospels.
Given the ends these Fundamentalists seek, it is actually suicidal for Jews and Israeli’s to share the same bed with them. It is in the best interests of the Israeli’s, Palestinians, U.S., and world peace to resolve this conflict in a viable fashion. Given the views of these Christian Fundamentalists, a peaceful solution would be a terrible idea and in their minds delay God’s Plan. The inconsistency of believing in an all-powerful God whose “plans” and schedules are affected by Humankind is not apparent to them in their delighted rush to bring on the Rapture and thus bring the “faithful believers” into Heaven.
Submitted by: Mike Spindell, guest blogger
Seriously Gene, you’re going to tell me this statement was ill-reasoned?
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/09/17/the-christian-zionist-movement-and-jewish-confusion/#comment-268451
So, I mostly hear about how my statements are ill-reasoned from the butt-hurt losers of an argument.
Yep. That fits you to a tee.
Note to Gene, as you pound the table and as you pound your lap, instead of constantly refreshing all of us of your butt hurt over how my ill-reasoned posts stomp your arguments into the ground, why don’t you read the post, and actually tell me what it is you disagree with.
But no, I don’t expect anything other than poutrage and butt-hurt from you.
So noted.
Mike,
Excellent post and to the self-destructive heart of the matter.
anon,
That response was as “well reasoned” as the bulk of your posts, including the ones above where you yourself use what you call scare quotes. (The quotes just used in this post were irony quotes, jackass.)
” For those who have “heard that”, I suggest regular reading of Haaretz, for one, whose English-language version is on line. There are many other blogs, websites, etc. that one could turn to as well.”
For those who put “scare quotes” around phrases and then turn honest sincere well meaning comments and inquiries into an opportunity for you to peacock how superior you are, why don’t you stuff it up your ass.
DHMCarver:
From your Haaretz link this is the one that seems to have our country on pins and needles.
“However, officials in both Israel and in Washington have affirmed that the U.S. was hard at work to and prevent itself the possible embarrassment of being forced to use its veto power in order to thwart the Palestinian vote, by attempting to assemble enough council members to either vote against the proposal or abstain as to make the veto unnecessary.”
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-laboring-to-avoid-veto-of-palestinian-statehood-bid-at-un-sources-say-1.385055
I’m going to be left behind come the rapture. Can I have Pat Robertson’s Rolls?
Frankly, thanks for the always-welcome reminder that the debate on these issues in Israel is more robust, more nuanced, and has a wider point of view than is represented in the debate on these shores. For those who have “heard that”, I suggest regular reading of Haaretz, for one, whose English-language version is on line. There are many other blogs, websites, etc. that one could turn to as well.
Mike s
Your post is probably felt by many of Jewish heritage,I remember that HBO had the story of the Israeli and Palestinian mothers on awhile back and they were going back and forth on their views and the Palestinian mother had lost her daughter as she became a suicide bomber and blew herself up in protest.
The thing that got me was one mother was saying how things were in her mind and the other mother was showing how things were just the opposite in hers.
FYI:Menachem Begin-A Brief Biography & QuotesMenachem Begin-A Brief Biography & Quotes
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story703.html
Strictly FYI no more no less.
“Anon – both survived the Warsaw Ghetto, and death camps (Majdanek and Auschwitz,) both lost their families during this time (his mothers first husband dies there).
Although his mother became a pacifist itmightbe possible to understand where bitter and angry came from.”
From my understanding, which is limited only to the paragraph from the Wikipedia, his parent’s experience was not much better or not much worse than many other’s parent’s experiences.
And so I still do not understand why his bitterness is “justifiable” when presumably so many others did not develop this bitterness.
I can see how his mother being a pacifist may have influenced him, and even led him to truly believe (and I assume he does) in his positions, but if so, I would not call that justifiable bitterness. I would call that sincere opposition with perhaps a bit of delusional ignorance and self-denial.
I really just don’t know, I appreciate you and Mike trying to clarify it.
“Tied in to that first thing is my second point – there is a much more open, robust and textured debate about how to deal with Palestine and the future of Israel in Israel than here. In the US only the Likud position is acceptable. Anything that is not full support of the right-wing party is labeled as anti-Israel and often hinted as anti-Semitic. ”
Yes, I’ve heard this too.
“I happen to think that there, like here, the right-wing is leading the nation into a blind canyon from which there will be no escape but it is not acceptable to say that out loud if you want to be viewed as rational for the purposes of politics in America. I think this is poisoning both the US and Israel.”
But of course, it’s not just the right wing. All over this blog, all over many “progressive” blogs, there is all sorts of bullying and name calling and other tactics that go on to ensure there is no debate and that all must hew to the one true progressive line. As an example in the Solyndra thread, we see excerpts of Kevin Drum, and Think Progress doing exactly this. Instead of examining the issue realistically as Professor Turley does, Drum’s take, Think Progress’ take, the take of the commenters here is: “How to spin it.”
That’s the problem when we see one side as a locomotive to be stopped by aiming our locomotive dead on into their’s. Nothing happens and no one wins.
Anon – both survived the Warsaw Ghetto, and death camps (Majdanek and Auschwitz,) both lost their families during this time (his mothers first husband dies there).
Although his mother became a pacifist itmightbe possible to understand where bitter and angry came from.
Two things surprise me about Jews & Israel. You have hit one of them very well here and I appreciate your post. Short sighted is putting it mildly I’m afraid.
Tied in to that first thing is my second point – there is a much more open, robust and textured debate about how to deal with Palestine and the future of Israel in Israel than here. In the US only the Likud position is acceptable. Anything that is not full support of the right-wing party is labeled as anti-Israel and often hinted as anti-Semitic.
I happen to think that there, like here, the right-wing is leading the nation into a blind canyon from which there will be no escape but it is not acceptable to say that out loud if you want to be viewed as rational for the purposes of politics in America. I think this is poisoning both the US and Israel.
“a shortsighted and irrational policy … Bibi Netanyahu is I believe wrong in its approach to the settlement of the ongoing conflict … Given the ends these Fundamentalists seek, it is actually suicidal for Jews and Israeli’s to share the same bed with them”
Practically the exact words of Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski upon being interviewed after returning from several nations that invited him to speak.
He says that current US policy, both at home and abroad, approaches lunacy and will lead to the demise of Israel.
Primarily because that policy is scripted by warmongers who think peace is a toy for weak people.
“I think Finkelstein is a man justifiably bitter, given what happened to his parents,”
Can you elaborate on this? What happened to his parents that leave him justifiably bitter?
On the one hand it is disappointing to see Wiesel participate with CUFI, but then given his own personal background, I can also see understanding why he would do so, based on your own offered justification: take friends where he can. And Israel often doesn’t have many friends.
That said, I’ve long wanted more positive statements out of Israel about dismantling the settlements.
My naive, optimistic, hopeful view, is that as in Gaza, when it gets down to it, settlements will be dismantled. And that they serve as security, as negotiating points, and to help present the point that land for peace can mean something in addition to Israel alone giving up the land. It can also mean that Palestinians and other Arab lands recognize Israel’s need for borders that can be secured and defended, and that this might be done by their giving up land as well. (I am referring to the 14 mile width of Israel.)
At another forum, I heard one view of the settlements that corresponded to what I said above, but then said, that given the experience of what happened in Gaza after Israel pulled out, it would be much more difficult to convince Israel to abandon settlements or land. Which was understandable, and depressing.
And I also know, that I don’t know enough about the situation and so I give much more deference to the parties on the ground than to pundits and know nothings pixellating on my screen.
One issue I have with the settlements pertains to this: “Through the years this policy has continued, despite the fact that world opinion sees the only viable solution being a “two state” result.” Sadly, I think world opinion is changing, and turning back to a one state solution, which I believe would mean the end of Israel.
“What do you think of Norman Finkelstein?”
Martin,
I think Finkelstein is a man justifiably bitter, given what happened to his parents, who uses hyperbolic overstatement in his claims. I think his personal politics infuse his scholarship to its detriment. the Shoah was real and it is in Jewish interests to use that reality as a means of self-protection in what has for 2,000 years been a hostile world. I am not slavishly devoted to Elie Wiesel for instance, indeed he has profited by his retelling his experiences, but that doesn’t diminish the horrors he saw. That Finkelstein is heavily supported by people like Chomsky and Cockburn doesn’t surprise me. I am fans of neither, though like a stopped clock they get things right about twice a day.
However, Martin: What do you think of Norman Finkelstein? This will be the last time I respond to you if you keep playing your asking questions game.The honest thing to do would be to state: “I think Norman Finkelstein is………, what do you think? You consistently throw in leading questions while not revealing your reason for asking them. You did this on a previous thread. Keep doing it now, or in the future and I simply will ignore you as someone who acts in bad faith.
What do you think of Norman Finkelstein?
Yes, excellent post…..
Now exactly how can you be Jewish and believe in the Books of Revelations….when it is written about 60 years after the “Messiahs” death….Makes about as much sense as Jews for Jesus….
Thank you for laying this out so neatly. I have argued with my inlaws for a while that the political alliance between the Israeli right and evangelical/apocalyptic Christianity is fraught with danger.
A most thought provoking post … thank you
Excellent post. I have frequently wondered why Isrealis would want to associate with christian fundamentalists. It seems very shortsighted.