We have been following the investigation into the death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Florida. The shooter, George Zimmerman, 28, has not been charged and reported a suspicious character to 911. Martin was returning from a 7-11 after buying Skittles. He was carrying the candy, a small amount of cash, and an iced tea. The family and many others have called for the arrest of Zimmerman, though the accounts of the shooting have been murky. Previously, we discussed the need to hear the 911 tapes, which have now been released and are linked below.
Zimmerman is reportedly a habitual caller into the police and is heard on one of the tapes complaining that ““These a**holes always get away.” Zimmerman states on the call that Martin appeared “up to no good . . . It’s raining. He’s just walking around, looking about . . . He’s just staring looking at all the houses.” Zimmerman says on the call that it is Martin who confronts him: “Something’s wrong with him. He’s coming to check me out.” However, he later admits that he is following Martin, which the police dispatcher discourages.
Police Chief Bill Lee said the 911 calls show that the incident was not a case of racial profiling. He said Zimmerman could not say whether the suspect was black or white. However, on the tape you hear Zimmerman say “He looks black” and then a few moments later, “He’s a black male.” While he is at first equivocal, he does identify his race. That does not mean that this is a case of profiling, of course.
However, family member have been critical of the handling of the case by the police and what they view as the police bending over backward to defend Zimmerman. The family had to file a lawsuit to get these tapes. After a hearing, the police finally relented.
The tapes certainly contradict some statements by the police. However, I am not sure that they substantially alter the status in the case. The evidence still is largely based on Zimmerman’s account, though such contemporary records are generally admissible. The tapes both help and hurt Zimmerman.
The statement by Zimmerman that “these a**holes always get away” certainly shows animus and he clearly follows the youth. However, that does not translate into evidence of intent to kill. I am more interested in the level of force used by Zimmerman and the two gunshots heard on the tape. It is possible that audio creates a misleading impression of two shots but that would seem an important forensic question. It is hard to believe that Martin would allegedly continue any confrontation of Zimmerman after a warning shot unless the shot was fired in the midst of a struggle over the gun. Zimmerman can cite the tape for his statement that he believed that Martin had something in his waistband and appeared on drugs. He can also cite his contemporary description of Martin approaching him.
Putting aside the complaints regarding the handling of the case by the police and the conflicting statements given by officials, there remains the question of whether there is sufficient evidence to base a charge against Zimmerman. I would like to see the coroner’s report on the trajectory and distance of the gunshot wound as well as audio analysis of the gun shot or shots. I would also like to see evidence of the abrasions on both men. Zimmerman was reportedly bleeding from the struggle but we have not heard many details on Martin’s other injuries.
Zimmerman would be wise to secure criminal counsel. There is probably enough here for an indictment. The most salient facts against him are (1) the statement on the 911 tape showing animus, (2) the disregarded instructions not to follow Martin, (3) the advantage in weight and possession of a firearm in the struggle, and (4) the lack of any weapon or proof of criminal conduct by Martin.
What do you think about the state of the evidence?
Here is the Zimmerman tape: 911 Tape (Zimmerman)
Here is a witness tape: 911 Tape (1)
Here is a witness tape: 911 Tape (2)
Source: CNN
@Bron – “…special macros…” OMG I almost spit OJ all over my Thinkpad ROTFLMAO!!! Your going to have to clean it up for me now! God one! 🙂
@Bron – Correct me if I’m wrong. Please look up the word “puerile” in your dictionary. When I used it so profusely here do you think I was referring to “alleged objective proofs” about some subject matter here or was I talking about the childish act of silly and wanton personal attacks on people like some Internet troll moron? You be the judge – no Daubert Challenge required my friend 🙂
No Malisha I’m not going there again baby girl. Remember that old Jamaican proverb President Dubya Bush could never get right due to his intellectual deficits? Something about “shame on me”, etc.
Sotb:
I thought it was interesting. In my opinion the tangents are the best or the threads where there is some intellectual “meat” to dig into.
You seem like a very interesting guy and Malisha too.
Sotb:
Dont mind Gene, he says that to everyone with whom he disagrees. Sometimes I wonder if he has special macros available for certain situations and just does a quick edit.
@Bron – OK I see your point. However, the nose cartilage of GZ was not soft-tissue and would have definitively left some sort of bruising on Trayvon’s hands. Also that close to the pavement, Trayvon’s knuckles would have undoubtedly hit it doing his alleged “shaken-baby” routine on GZ. Trayvon was never an aggressive kid. How do you think he got caught with that basically empty (i.e. all smoked up) bag of weed yet his tox-screen showed no signs of cannabis in last 30-days? He was obviously set up by HS bullies he was too scared to deny being the fall-guy for. GZ has a documented propensity for physical violence. It doesn’t take a NASA scientist to see that that Clash of the Titans only involved ONE Titan – George.
Also Bron (et al – means and others)? Are you the only folks here that see why I post stuff (i.e. Chris Langan)? Is it to challenge some benighted theories of whatever or is it just simply information sharing on what SotB finds interesting in the world? I didn’t think I was here to prove or disprove Evolution. I thought I was here to debate the incident in Sanford FL. The evolution thing was just a sidebar past time – RIGHT? Correct me if I’m wrong – please!
@Otteray Scribe – I don’t challenge what you said about molecules and stuff. I believe you are absolutely right about that. I only pose the question WHO or WHAT caused it’s origins and by what method? I just have trouble believing that it was only by chaos in the presence of ostensible evidence to the contrary. Christopher Langan, I believe, is not a Creationist. But neither him nor I could pass the Daubert Challenge as neither of us are “expert witnesses”. We are ostensibly “polymath autodidacts”. However, Chris is WAAAY smarter than me. My IQ only barely tops Charles Darwin’s. Chris is up there with Marilyn vos Savant and Malisha! Marilyn is married to Dr. Jarvic of the Jarvic heart fame?
Sotb:
Langan seems rather interesting.
SoTB,
Either you own your statements and assertions or you do not. If you do not want them challenged? Keep them to youself. A matter being open for discussion means exactly that. It does not mean you are free to preach unchallenged. If that upsets you? Too bad. Grow up. That’s the price of free speech.
And please, stop using words you don’t know the meaning of. It only reenfoces your ignorance. Just because you are challenged (and successfully) does not mean that challenge is puerile. What’s puerile is someone who willfully ignores evidence. Ignoring evidence is the act of a child, a fool or an idiot. An assertion you cannot adequately defend? It only means you’re unable to argue and/or your premises/assertions were shit to begin with. Or as in your case, both. Repeating your fallacious and irrelevant appeal to authority will not make it any less fallacious or irrelevant.
Fail? The only failure here is in your ability to back your contentions with any kind of proof whatsoever. The lady doth project too much, methinks.
*********
Malisha,
Jaynes book is indeed quite a “wow” moment.
Malisha, analyzing internal dialogue is the basis for most forms of psychotherapy. Albert Ellis used it when he formulated the concept of the nutty things we tell ourselves about what is going on around us and which in turn make us a bit nutty. Fritz Perls raised confronting our “other” selves to a fine art, which resulted in the “Aha!” experience as we integrated that other into a whole. He called his technique Gestalt Therapy, because it exemplifies the German concept which has no equivalent term in English.
OS, have you read Julian Jaynes’ THE ORIGINS OF CONSCIOUSNESS IN THE BREAKDOWN OF THE BICAMERAL MIND?
That book had me in a meditation (interrupted by real life of course) for two years, and I had read the ILIAD in Greek long long before picking it up. While reading the book it snapped into my mind that the constant subvocalized “dialogue” I carry on with myself was made of me on both sides; it gave me a “WOW moment.” (Of course the WOW moment lasted, as I said, for years.)
THere’s a Julian Jaynes Society, dues are $25 for lifetime membership. It’s one of only two organizations I ever joined! (American Constitution Society the other, but dues got too expensive and I only “audit” now.)
Woosty,
You’re not thinking of the Torah, but the Taurus, not the car but the mythology. 🙂
@All (explicitly) – I posted this at 0935 hours today 16Feb:
“Is it logically plausible that scientists great and small could possibly believe in God or a Super-Sentient-Architect? Without even considering Astronaut Buzz Aldrin and the late JPL-NASA scientist Robert Jastrow look who else in history does/did: Google Results – just click that”
Food for thought:
1) Why did I, SoTB, do that?
2) What were my ulterior motives?
3) Was I trying to prove or disprove something?
4) Did I think, like a benighted soul might, that simply stating minutiae of gestalt (like my posting here) would be the be all/end all solution to the discussion on a Super-Sentient-Architecture (SSA)?
(Gestalt is a German word – type define:gestalt at Google.com)
5) Am I a proponent of Intelligent Design (ID) or some other Fundamentalist or Creationist pablum?
6) Do I believe that multimillion year old NatSel was the SSA’s method of operation for creation?
The answer to some of these things are open for discussion here. However, some of them I simply respond to the dissenters here like the puerile Internet kids do: FAIL!
“What I believe is not science.”
Then to attempt to frame them as fact is at best disingenuous. There is no proof for either the “Gestalt” theory or ID. There is plenty of proof – your willful ignornace of said proof notwithstanding – for evolution and natural selection. Believe whatever you wish, that is your right, but I’ll stick with empirical fact. A truth one can prove far outweighs an unknown one cannot prove but would simply believe to be true for whatever reason.
Sotb:
your rendition is why I said might. I dont know all the facts.
#2’s hands might not be lacerated if he only hit the guy in soft tissue or he just grabbed his head.
So you make a good case. And hopefully the truth will come out at trial.
The weight of the oponent and his size have very little to do with the outcome of a fight. I am 6′-6″ and weighed around 200 lbs in high school and college. I stayed away from little guys who wanted to fight me because when I was in high school I used to wrestle [outside of school] with one of the wrestlers who did wrestle at school, he used to beat me everytime. I had at least 8″ and 40 lbs on him but he would get me around the legs and I would go down like a sack of potatoes from there he was so fast I couldnt do shit.
So physics wise I should have kicked his little scrawny butt, but it never happened. Maybe if I had been a trained wrestler it would have worked out differently but Butch was pretty good. So there is more than just physics and hormones at work. At least in my opinion.
“Why did I bring up Christopher Langan?”
Straw man. The question wasn’t asked. Other than your man crush, you obviously brought him and his suppositions up as some kind of proof for your contentions. I’m still not impressed with his manifestly logically flawed and evidence deficient idea. He has not met the burden of proof. When he can prove a rock is conscious by repeatable experimentation? Get back to me. Otherwise, his metaphysics remain metaphysics and not proof or science in any valid applications of the terms.
Gene, I firmly believe a lot of things, but absolutely none of those belief systems would withstand even a half-hearted Daubert challenge. What I believe is not science. You are spot-on with that observations.
What I do know is that we are all an aggregation of elemental molecules that evolved and learned to stand erect and develop a sense of self-awareness, as well as awareness of both past and future possiblites. That does not detract from the fact we are an organized mess/mass of carbon and other chemicals.
Why did I bring up Christopher Langan? He is NOT me I assure you. He lives near me and I would like to debate with him on stuff. He is arguably the SMARTEST MAN IN THE WORLD. Guess what that says about Stephen Hawkin? Watch this video about him:
“Is it logically plausible that scientists great and small could possibly believe in God or a Super-Sentient-Architect? ”
Irrelevant and the logical fallacy of appealing to authority. The reason it is irrelevant is that belief is not science. It is logically plausible that scienctists believe any number of unprovable or irrational things. It does not make those beliefs true, proof or scientific empirical fact. However, no competent scienctist would assert their beliefs as proof without evidence. They might use their beliefs to form hypotheses for later testing, but that is a different issue that detracts nothing from the nature of the practice of science and the application of the scientific method requiring observation and verifiable repeatable experimentation.
Try again.
@W=^..^ – OK here is your profile*. I too love cats over dogs. Fortunately, I know how to deal with them.
Case in point I was approached by 3 small pit-bulls during a job related field op in a town recently known in my state as a epidemic for this. I just walked away unscathed. The owner said “Do you need any help?” I said “No I’m fine…” and climbed back into the vehicle. What did I do? No chemicals or food used. Discussion?
*I am NOT endorsing this profile W=^..^! Unless you agree with it… (LOL)
@All (explicitly) – Is it logically plausible that scientists great and small could possibly believe in God or a Super-Sentient-Architect? Without even considering Astronaut Buzz Aldrin and the late JPL-NASA scientist Robert Jastrow look who else in history does/did: Google Results – just click that
Woosty,
Pootie was the name of the beloved cat of Phillygirl. Pootie crossed the rainbow bridge several years ago, so her name lives on in blogostan. Woozle, IIRC, was a German Shepherd, also beloved pet of a popular blooger. Woozle passed on and his name lives on as well.
@Bron – YES! Finally back on topic… As much as I like you Bron my friend I can not agree with you about this. Try and put your PHYSICS hat on.
1) A 5′ 8″ 185 lb stocky 28 year old male with his adrenaline and testosterone arguably flowing heavy.
2) A 6′ 0″ 140 lb lanky 17 year old child with cortisol arguably flowing heavily.
It’s dark as approx.19:30 hours on Sunday 26Feb-2012 in pre-spring is pretty low in ambient light. The precipitation was negligible but was chilly (see weather that area here on 26Feb) .
In your scenario #1 has no pistol or it jams upon firing. #2 is armed with a recycled thin aluminum beverage can which crushes easily in your hand and a bag of candy. And of course his hands which the mortician said was without any bruising or lacerations indicative of trauma from a fight.
Now #2’s adrenaline MIGHT have been flowing too (fight or flight?). But since everyone knew #1 to be the looney-tunes wannabe Watch Captain who lives at the southwest corner of RATL in a rented apartment, #2 may have had a lot of angst and was very upset with #1’s perceived racism (i.e. “Why is this **** messing with me?” like his Principle at School? Dede said Trayvon said something like this too.). So my adrenal-secretion vote is cortisol due to stress for #2.
Under these conditions I can not see your scenario as being at all plausible. Also eyewitnesses Mary Cuthcher and Selma Mora say that they witnessed the entire scenario (in low ambient light) and also saw #1 tamper with evidence. There was also NO BLOOD on the walkway where #1 said his head was being bashed “shaken-baby-syndrome”-like.
#1’s friend at the security guard company #1 was just fired from said that #1 is a JEKYLL and HYDE personality type and believes that #2 was in jeopardy from #1’s uncontrolled rage. Gun or no gun, #1 would have hurt the object of his rage which he had done recently to a defenseless woman, 2005 to an ARMED cop, and his defenseless girlfriend WITH NO GUN!