The evidence for the trial of George Zimmerman is slowly taking form. Yesterday, a medical report was disclosed by the family physician of George Zimmerman where the doctor found a “closed fracture” of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Trayvon Martin. While this is the family physician, it would still constitute important evidence in claiming self-defense, particularly when combined with accounts from the paramedics that found injuries to Zimmerman. An autopsy report released today also revealed bruises on Martin’s knuckles, consistent with a fight (though they could be bruises sustained in self-defense). In the meantime, the Justice Department has indicated that it may bring hate crime charges against Zimmerman — charges that would be questionable on the current evidence that has been made public in the case.
The prosecution is likely to explore any differences between the paramedics and the doctor. Some issues are likely to be raise such as whether the paramedics saw a broken nose and whether such “closed fractures” can be easily missed by a paramedic on an street at night. Moreover, such injuries could be sustained by Zimmerman as a result of Martin defending himself.
The leak of possible civil rights charges may be designed to try to get Zimmerman to accept a plea with prosecutors. I have reservations about such a charge based on the evidence that is available — as I have expressed over the overcharging in the case as second degree murder. This case has already raised serious questions of the influence of public pressure on the prosecutors. While there may be additional evidence that would support such a hate crime charge, the current evidence, in my view, falls short of the threshold showing needed for such a charge. The crime is defined as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.” The “in part” component gives some wiggle room for prosecutors but you need to still show clear intent on the race issue. While state courts have rejected the need under state law for race to be the “primary” factor, there remains unease in cases where race appears a secondary issue. The Justice Department has sometimes moved against defendants who were acquitted of the same offense under state law as in the Pennsylvania case involving the death of a hispanic man. These cases raise serious questions of when trash talk reflects racial motivations.
We have seen the same type of claim under “Stand Your Ground” in mixed-race shootings without such hate crime allegations. I have previously express unease over the standard used for hate crime charges and the decision to pursue some cases while refusing to move on others with similar or stronger facts. This is a case that could be explained as a crime-obsessed as opposed to a race-obsessed neighborhood watch captain. Indeed, Zimmerman’s past violent record may indicate that he is prone to violence generally. There has been no new evidence revealed that shows that Zimmerman’s shooting was race motivated. His own mixed race background and injuries from the fight militate against such a charge. They certainly do not rule out such a charge, but more has to be shown in my view.
The case is already over-charged as second degree murder. If the Justice Department is going to bring a hate crime charge, it better have stronger evidence than we have seen from Angela Corey to support a second-degree murder charge. Corey was in my view clearly affected by the public pressure in the case in charging the case as second degree murder rather than manslaughter. I am equally troubled by Attorney General Eric Holder discussing the case in public speeches when his department is supposed to be conducting an unbiased review of the facts involving a man who has not been convicted of a crime.
The combination of the leak on the civil rights charges and Holder’s public statements leave the impression that the DOJ will not accept acquittal as an answer in the case if Zimmerman does prevail. The impression, in my view, diminishes the appearance of due process and fair trial for the accused.
What do you think?
Source: ABC
I do not know enough about the voice forensics on the second 911 tape (from the neighbor) with the cries for “help” on it, but I believe those cries are too long and clear to be made while engaged in a physical wrestling match or fight. I think those cries are made by a person physically at rest, specifically, I think that AFTER a fight Trayvon was being held at gunpoint for several seconds and yelling for help when Zimmerman shot him in anger.
That would make sense of the intermediate range; close enough that he cannot miss, far enough away that Trayvon could not reach him and Zimmerman could shoot if Trayvon tried to rush him or run away.
Trayvon did the only thing he could do in that circumstance, start calling for help.
I think that, when that was happening and Zimmerman had a chance to think, he realized police would be arriving soon, and Trayvon’s story would make him guilty of assault with a deadly weapon.
(Hey lawyers, aren’t you guilty of assault just by showing people your gun to coerce cooperation?)
A conviction like that would end his wannabe a police bully career. I think he struck upon the idea that he could save himself if he claimed self-defense, and he was so enraged and in pain already he pulled the trigger to silence Trayvon and save himself.
The case was not over-charged, it was under-charged. I think it was premeditated murder. Premeditated for 30 seconds, but premeditated nonetheless.
Malisha, below the comment I tried to post yesterday, it didn’t work, and it doesn’t work today. What if I try to delete the two links?
Slightly late since one of today’s articles (was it Elaine’s Miami Herald link?) provide a more specific figure, maybe based on the documents. Maybe the specific would can tell us about if it is more likely the lower or higher end.
The most interesting of course would be GZ’s narrative and a video of the reenactment.
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Arthur, That is the nail in Zimmerman’s coffin. & Dredd, not so fast Arthur, this doesn’t seem to tell us anything definitive.
My question would be, how close exactly to how far off?
Zimmerman was also working as a bouncer in private parties before, and Martin had no such experience. Zimmerman tended to “go off” when he was angry — that’s on record. Martin had no such reputation. All the odds are in favor of people thinking the chances of Martin “attacking” Zimmerman are no greater than 50/50 no matter how you look at it. For self-defense, that would not be a great number to play with.
I think the police work is interesting. If you look at what those Hiller Armaments folks from Virginia said in their advertising, “Of course we support George Zimmerman. We think he is innocent. He shot a thug.” you can see what probably motivated the police on 2/26/2012, when real cops doing their real job properly and without racist motivations or even corrupt motivations would have collected all the evidence and charged Zimmerman with at least manslaughter RIGHT THEN: They thought, very easily, “He is innocent; he shot a thug,” and their attitude toward the deceased dominated their thinking about whether their suspect was supposed to be investigated properly or arrested according to law. That stuff about self-defense was just window dressing. You can tell because they did not do any part of their job properly that night.
After all, just checking out some innocent guy who shot a thug. It was his perfect right to shoot thugs; that’s what his gun was for!
Wait a minute, wait a minute. We’re discussing Zimmerman’s wounds? Why? Autopsy report says single bullet, entered chest, INTERMEDIATE RANGE, angle = straight through.
Zimmerman was not on the ground being pummeled, finally pulling out his gun and squeezing off a shot while Trayvon Martin struggled to get control of the fire-arm.
Intermediate range, angle STRAIGHT into the chest.
Intermediate range. I don’t have to measure that. It means Zimmerman’s version of the events do not match the physical evidence. O’Mara has to be working hard to earn his fee right now.
But if the doctor says otherwise, and if as the witness says that Trayvon really had the upper hand and was going after him with MMA punches, then maybe not.
anon, Teeslaw commented on the 911 calls on you tube, plus adding a time stamps. I seem to remember that he considered it worth a comment at the point flashlights appear and the witness now seems to be able to really see much better.
Although our eyes adapt to darkness, if we give them a little time, I occasionally wonder what people really could see, and if they were able to differentiate the people, discern red or white, were simply guessing colors or in “John’s” case added them to their narratives after.
Sanford Florida: 02/26/2012 Sunset 18:22
If I may enter a caveat:
this is exactly why I would like to take a look at the court files. Initially it was a resisting arrest with force, then it was downgraded to resisting arrest without force. One version suggests aggression the other not necessarily. Although the downgrading may be related to the process of opening up a chance for the Pretrial Diversion Program.
Arguments can escalate, something even the most dovish will acknowledge. My main interest is really: why and how exactly (?), with the tragic results we all know.
concerning this:
Maybe we are facing another problem in this context. Am I correct you have much experience with alcohol but none at all with Cannabis or Marijuana? Besides being aware that consumption is a criminal activity?
Well I think that most people can recall the Woodstock festival in which over half a million young people were in a grim situation with very few violent incidients. The cops were pleasantly surprised that there were so few such things, and attributed that to the great use of dope, rather than alcohol. So we have an excellent mass experiment on how marijuana affects masses of people. Even if Martin had been high, which he wasn’t, it would tend to make him more peaceful than aggresive.
Arthur, were you around in Woodstock?
There seems to be quite a bit of effort in the more politicized research, at least that is what I assume, to connect marijuana and aggression. Maybe it would be interesting to look at the study designs. But I guess, we all have to live with the fact that there are much, much more things we do not know than know.
I have no idea how this WordPress feature work. is this a private comment or will it show up on the thread?
As a matter of fact, I wanted to go to Woodstock, but I had to work that weekend so I missed it. I was living in CT at the time, so it would have been normally a short drive. Of course, had I tried, to go, it would have taken me all weekend to get there if I ever did. The reason I mention that is it proved that marijuana does NOT cause any aggression, and in fact does the opposite. That was a mass experiment conducted on over a half a million young people. As the cops said at the time, if there had been as much alcohol around, that crowd would have been UGLY and they would have had a MUCH harder time.
So to posit that Martin was aggressive because of a trace of THC in his system, is absurd since dope does the OPPOSITE as PROVED by over half a million young folks at Woodstock.
The discovery documents in the article Elaine cites can be seen here in .pdf form. All 184 pages are redacted in to hide addresses and names of witnesses although there are some large blocks of text blacked out as well.
In following this whole soap opera, I have come to two conclusions:
1. Speculate and argue all you want, but no one is going to know the extent of the forensic evidence until it is presented in court. I am a very patient person and am willing to let the story play out to its fullest extent. I think I will be disappointed if GZ takes a plea and we do not get to hear a presentation of exhibits and testimony.
2. Zimmerman has been watching too many movies, methinks. Most likely too many Charles Bronson movies.
Evidence is released in the Trayvon Martin homicide
BY FRANCES ROBLES, MARC CAPUTO AND AUDRA D.S. BURCH
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/17/2804442/law-officers-set-to-release-evidence.html
Excerpts:
A trove of evidence collected for George Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial was made public Thursday, including the report that shows the lead detective originally wanted to file manslaughter charges because he said the whole encounter could have been avoided with better judgment and a little dialogue.
But the cache of forensic evidence, autopsy results, documents, audio tapes and police reports also paints a murky portrait of a fight between two people that left a teenager dead, a man facing life in prison, and a community shaken.
Some witnesses contradicted each other and others were flat wrong. Some heard two shots, when only one was fired. A few people saw the man with a red shirt — Zimmerman — on top during the fight, while others saw Trayvon Martin straddling Zimmerman and throwing punches. Still others were convinced it was Trayvon who cried for help, although police disagreed.
Ultimately, police, medical and witness accounts verify that Zimmerman’s nose was broken and that he was punched repeatedly by a scrawny unarmed teenager who straddled him as terrified neighbors called police. Records released by State Attorney Angela B. Corey on Thursday show the lead Sanford police investigator believed it was the neighborhood watch volunteer who was recorded screaming the word “help” 14 times in 38 seconds.
Other witnesses described Zimmerman as nonchalant after the killing. Two people who said they knew him told police that he was a racist and a bully, once fired from a job for complaining so much about co-workers and bosses.
In mid-March, the Sanford police chief announced that no probable cause existed to make an arrest. In a document dated the next day, the lead detective swore otherwise.
*****
The evidence included statements from nearly two dozen witnesses, such as leaders of the homeowners association and other residents at the Retreat at Twin Lakes townhouse development.
“I feel in my heart … I honestly do believe … that he intended for this kid to die,” one witness said.
One statement came from a Middle Eastern man who said Zimmerman taunted him at work by acting out ventriloquist Jeff Dunham’s “Achmed the Dead Terrorist” character, played by his dummy puppet.
FIRED FROM JOB
He said Zimmerman was fired in 2008 for filing too many complaints about managers and co-workers. Another woman called police to say Zimmerman was confrontational and “does not like black people.”
Manny O:
You make some good points, I think. But . . .
“If Dad says to Child, Dont you ever do X again, and then Child says “ok” that means the child agrees and will not do it again.”
From my corner of the playground, what the kid says to dad is one thing, and what the kid does when dad is out of sight, is quite another.
New Details Are Released in Shooting of Trayvon Martin
By SERGE F. KOVALESKI and CAMPBELL ROBERTSON
Published: May 17, 2012
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/us/new-details-are-released-in-shooting-of-teenager.html
Excerpt:
According to a report by another officer, Timothy Smith, the police offered Mr. Zimmerman the chance to be taken to hospital at least three times — at the scene, during the ride to the police station and after arriving at the station — and he declined each time.
Police report: Trayvon Martin’s shooting was ‘avoidable’
By William M. Welch, Yamiche Alcindor and Donna Leinwand Leger
USA TODAY
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-17/zimmerman-trayvon-shooting-report/55046944/1
Excerpt:
Trayvon Martin’s fatal encounter with George Zimmerman was “avoidable,” and the teen was not doing anything criminal at the time of their confrontation on Feb. 26, a report by Sanford, Fla., police says.
The report, dated March 13, came nearly a month before a special prosecutor brought second-degree-murder charges against Zimmerman, 28, in the death of 17-year-old Trayvon. He has pleaded not guilty and said he acted in self-defense.
“The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely, if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party’s concern,” the report says. “There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter.”
A large cache of reports, documents, photos and other descriptions of evidence in the case were released to the public Thursday evening after being disclosed previously to defense attorneys. The case has attracted worldwide attention with accusations by Trayvon’s family and civil rights leaders that Zimmerman, who is Hispanic, targeted Trayvon because he was black and said he appeared to be “up to no good.”
The report says a single bullet perforated Trayvon’s heart.
Other police investigative reports said that Trayvon had been staying in the gated residential complex for a week before the shooting and that he had been sent to the home of a friend by his father after the teen had been suspended from school for 10 days for marijuana possession. A toxicology report on his body found a small amount of THC, the psychoactive chemical in marijuana, in his blood.
A police report concluded that at the time he was confronted by Zimmerman, Trayvon “was in fact generally running in the direction of where he was staying as a guest in the neighborhood.”
Zimmerman had reported “suspicious persons, all young black males” to police on three previous occasions in 2011, the reports said.
“According to record checks, all of Zimmerman’s suspicious person calls while residing in the Retreat neighborhood have identified Black males as the subjects,” the report said.
Anon, we do NOT know exactly what happened. But we DO know that it was not Trayvon Martin’s fault. We know that because he didn’t look for any fight, he didn’t look for any confrontation, and he was not committing any crime.
Zimmerman was a person who was already very much identified within the community and even within the police community as being obsessed with the idea that he was going to be a crime-fighter. He had an emotional problem with that. He felt “fed up” and irritated that he had not been able to “clean up the Wild West” as any proper Clint Eastwood (or Wyatt Earp or whoever those other heroes were) would have been able to do. He had anger management problems. He had all sorts of issues that were not dealt with, and he had a history of violent behavior and some weirdness. He had been going around handing out leaflets to residents who were just not as gung ho as he was to “catch bad guys.”
We do know THIS about what happened that night: Zimmerman expressed his frustration and negativity TOWARDS MARTIN right on the recording to the police, as he got out of the car to follow Martin. He said:
“These assholes always get away.”
This is an extremely important sentence. He had already decided that Martin was appropriately the object of his scorn and anger. An “asshole.”
Zimmerman had decided Martin was a “bad guy.”
HE DID FOLLOW MARTIN. We do know that.
They asked, “Are you following him?” “Yeah.”
Could it be possible that right after he admitted following Martin, he suddenly became docile and non-hostile, abandoned his prior position of regarding Martin as a “bad guy” deserving of punishment, and just figured he’d go peacefully back to his car and let the asshole get away?
Right here we cannot say that we can rule that out absolutely, no, but it doesn’t make sense, not with what we already DO know about both George Zimmerman (he goes too far, he thinks he will get away with things, he fancies himself the right person to teach others a lesson if they’re out of line, he’s easily moved to anger) and the general situation (Zimmerman got OUT of his car although he did not have to do that).
So whereas we do not absolutely know that Zimmerman struck first, or made the hostile move that ignited the situation, or did whatever it took to make Martin fear him enough to defend himself by any means necessary, we can probably get to a point I would put beyond “reasonable doubt.”
I think if I’m a director of a movie and I have a guy like Zimmerman all pumped up to catch and apprehend Martin, and I have the scene halfway there, and then the workshop actors suggest, “I think right here Zimmerman has the motivation to return to his truck without finishing the job of apprehending the criminal,” the director has to say, “No, guys, that won’t work. The audience won’t go for that.”
I’m just saying.
OMG OMG, this is a symptom of something so sick that there simply MUST be a phrase coined for it and a book written about it, MUST, RIGHT NOW!
Malisha
It may be the ‘Dead Men Tell No Tales’ doctrine.
I just don’t know what happened that night. No one seems to have provided enough evidence of what actually took place, and lots of people seem to want to call speculation evidence. And I’m not a lawyer, perhaps that’s what lawyers are taught to do.
Maybe I just suck as a human, because it’s clear there are many people here that seem to know exactly what happened.
There can be “two humans in a rotten situation,” but in this case, one of the humans PUT the other human into that rotten situation.
Martin was trying to get out of what he already perceived to be a rotten situation when Zimmerman said to the cops, “Shit, he’s running.”
Anon, you’re perhaps thinking that when Martin saw Zimmerman “spot” him in the car, and then told his girlfriend, “someone’s following me” or “a guy’s following me,” that he just thought, “oh some guy.” Perhaps you’re thinking that THEN, when he sees Zimmerman is OUT of his car and still in pursuit, he’s still thinking, “Oh some guy.”
Had I been there that night, and a “guy” was following me and then showed up again, on foot, I would not have thought, “oh some guy.” I would have thought, “OMG, OMG, either a rapist [yes, there are rapists who target teen-aged boys, not just frail pretty ladies] or a kidnapper or a crazed murderer or a pervert of some sort or a serial murderer or something like that.” Why would I have thought that?
Alone, at night, in the rain, not a cop, coming at me, having followed me, here again, no clear reason for this, don’t like the look of this, do not like the look of this.
If you’re in a situation of danger, the LAST thing you want to do is engage in a friendly conversation. You can end up carved into pieces, body parts never found, shortly thereafter. If you think there is “no reason” for a physical act on the FOLLOWED PERSON’s part, you’ve got the staging wrong.
If someone comes up to you on a public street in broad daylight, you have no reason for physical confrontation.
If someone comes up to you in a fast food restaurant, you have no reason for physical confrontation.
If someone comes up to you in the hallway of a hospital, you have no reason for physical confrontation.
If someone who was following you in their car then comes up to you on foot, in a dark place where you have no exit, without calling out to you in a friendly way to make you aware that he is non-threatening, without giving you a good reason for him to follow you (“Hey you dropped your wallet”), you do NOT assume he is friendly. You very well MAY assume he is dangerous. Much of that has to do with what you instinctively feel when you see the person approach. Eyebrows up and together? Brow furrowed? Face flushed or tensed? Lips pressed together? Scowling?
There may have been a hundred good reasons for Martin to try to physically defend himself. After all, Zimmerman WAS armed and dangerous. We are ASSUMING that he did not have his gun out early on, but that assumption may not even be true.
anon, Just because you started a fight and are losing, does NOT mean you are entitled to use deadly force.
Absolutely!
Absent any weapon in Martin’s hand, Zimmerman had NO legal right to pull a gun on him and shoot him dead.
That’s not as clear to me. Your points regarding what the paramedics describe as minor injuries are salient. But if the doctor says otherwise, and if as the witness says that Trayvon really had the upper hand and was going after him with MMA punches, then maybe not. Maybe Zimmerman can make the case he really did fear for his life. Especially if his claim is that he didn’t throw the first punch and was even heading back to his car.
It is clear that they had to be face to face when the fight started otherwise Z would NOT have wound up on his back, and scratches to the back of his head. That said, I have no idea of what MMA punches would look like nor do I think ANY witness would since it was dark. If Martin had been making life threatening moves, Z would look a HELL of a lot worse than he did!
For me, I would have to see an eye hanging down out of its socket, a nose torn off or loose, lips severly bruised and swollen or any one of those things to convince a reasonable person Z was in imminent danger of severe bodily harm or death. A 140lbs kid hitting on a 200+ guy does NOT make for an imminent threat of death. Now if Martin were a certified or trained martial arts master, then you might have a point. Absent that and the physical evidence I have seen. Z had NO right to use deadly force in that situation.,
Ah, but the skittles! That’s where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, and with geometric logic, that time to smoke a joint had existed!