The evidence for the trial of George Zimmerman is slowly taking form. Yesterday, a medical report was disclosed by the family physician of George Zimmerman where the doctor found a “closed fracture” of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Trayvon Martin. While this is the family physician, it would still constitute important evidence in claiming self-defense, particularly when combined with accounts from the paramedics that found injuries to Zimmerman. An autopsy report released today also revealed bruises on Martin’s knuckles, consistent with a fight (though they could be bruises sustained in self-defense). In the meantime, the Justice Department has indicated that it may bring hate crime charges against Zimmerman — charges that would be questionable on the current evidence that has been made public in the case.
The prosecution is likely to explore any differences between the paramedics and the doctor. Some issues are likely to be raise such as whether the paramedics saw a broken nose and whether such “closed fractures” can be easily missed by a paramedic on an street at night. Moreover, such injuries could be sustained by Zimmerman as a result of Martin defending himself.
The leak of possible civil rights charges may be designed to try to get Zimmerman to accept a plea with prosecutors. I have reservations about such a charge based on the evidence that is available — as I have expressed over the overcharging in the case as second degree murder. This case has already raised serious questions of the influence of public pressure on the prosecutors. While there may be additional evidence that would support such a hate crime charge, the current evidence, in my view, falls short of the threshold showing needed for such a charge. The crime is defined as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.” The “in part” component gives some wiggle room for prosecutors but you need to still show clear intent on the race issue. While state courts have rejected the need under state law for race to be the “primary” factor, there remains unease in cases where race appears a secondary issue. The Justice Department has sometimes moved against defendants who were acquitted of the same offense under state law as in the Pennsylvania case involving the death of a hispanic man. These cases raise serious questions of when trash talk reflects racial motivations.
We have seen the same type of claim under “Stand Your Ground” in mixed-race shootings without such hate crime allegations. I have previously express unease over the standard used for hate crime charges and the decision to pursue some cases while refusing to move on others with similar or stronger facts. This is a case that could be explained as a crime-obsessed as opposed to a race-obsessed neighborhood watch captain. Indeed, Zimmerman’s past violent record may indicate that he is prone to violence generally. There has been no new evidence revealed that shows that Zimmerman’s shooting was race motivated. His own mixed race background and injuries from the fight militate against such a charge. They certainly do not rule out such a charge, but more has to be shown in my view.
The case is already over-charged as second degree murder. If the Justice Department is going to bring a hate crime charge, it better have stronger evidence than we have seen from Angela Corey to support a second-degree murder charge. Corey was in my view clearly affected by the public pressure in the case in charging the case as second degree murder rather than manslaughter. I am equally troubled by Attorney General Eric Holder discussing the case in public speeches when his department is supposed to be conducting an unbiased review of the facts involving a man who has not been convicted of a crime.
The combination of the leak on the civil rights charges and Holder’s public statements leave the impression that the DOJ will not accept acquittal as an answer in the case if Zimmerman does prevail. The impression, in my view, diminishes the appearance of due process and fair trial for the accused.
What do you think?
Source: ABC
Manny, someone just estimated by the sounds on the 911 call that Gweorgie walked 60 feet past where he said OK. H edid not give the police his location. If he was going back to his truck why not say he would meet the police there?
Oh yea, super criminal Trayvon had snuck up on George -out of sight- with a listening device so he could hear what George was saying.
If Trayvon could hear George he would have KNOWN George was talking to the police, maybe thinking he was being followed by an undercover agent would have changed Trayvons behavior. I know it would mine- just a bit.
Manny O, the cite will come in court if Zimmerman takes the stand.
The witness statements did not see anybody unleash violence. they saw a fight but no “unleashing” —
I get to repeat myself as much as I like.
Print this thread and send a copy to O’Mara.
Malisha – You repeated your assertions, but where is the CITE? Where is the report/data/witness statement ANYTHING that contradicts the 911 recording or Zimmermans statements? Any witness statements that state they saw Zimmerman feverishly pursuing Martin? Please CITE
On the unleashing of violence by martin, THERE IS WITNESS STATEMENTS where people saw Martin on top of Zimmerman landing MMA/UFC style punches on Zimmerman while he straddled Zimmerman and Zimmerman cried for help. The broken nose, the head lacerations…multiple reports confirm all of it. This level of violence most people would consider “unusual”. What would not be unusual? If Martin sucker punched him and then ran away once he was off his feet…but no, because the data we have (911 call and Zimmerman’s statement) has Martin as the producer of confrontation, Martin had no reason to leave, he just wanted to continue his onslaught even as neighbors saw and went to call the police (eye-witness statement)
So can you point to even a single witness statement in the discovery or reports that show Zimmerman pursuing and producing a confrontation with Martin? That’s the difference here
THERE IS WITNESS STATEMENTS where people saw Martin on top of Zimmerman landing MMA/UFC style punches on Zimmerman while he straddled Zimmerman and Zimmerman cried for help.
This is such unmitigated BS I am surprised you have the gall to make it. LOOK at Zimmerman’s face! All I see is that he was being slapped at best. There is NO broken nose, since his doctor said possible nose break and NO x-rays confirming even a hairline fracture as was initially reported He sure as hell did not get a fist jammed into his mouth. There is NO swelling on the lips, NO cuts, NO broken or dislodged teeth, NO swelling above the eyes, no NOTHING! To say that Martin was landing MMA blows is absurd and you must be hallucinating. Ever see a boxing match? They are hit with padded gloves, NOT bare knuckles.
The best evidence that Martin was NOT doing life threatening blows or even great bodily harm is Z’s face. There is one small cut on the bridge of Z’s nose which was probably the one blow Martin threw and landed. The nose hit was not enough to even require any major medical atttention. I have hit my nose that bled more than what Z had. I also had lots of blood on the front of my shirt too. I see NO such evidence of that anywhere on Z.. So WHERE is your evidence?
We know for a FACT that they were facing each other when the fight started since Z got his head scratches most likely when he fell backwards onto the concrete. I am allowing your assumption that Martin did confront Zimmerman. As to who threw the first blow, or initiated physical contact, we have the written record of both. Martin was not suspended for fighting. Zimmerman has a RECORD of physically assaulting or resisting a COP. Zimmerman worked as a bouncer and had problems with anger management as reported by others. Martin had NO such record. Given those FACTS, I DO have a damn good idea of who started the physical confronation.
My best guess is that given Zimmerman’s experience as a fighter and bouncer, he came up behind Martin, and either grabbed his arm to pull him around, and Martin spun and hit him. The unexpected twist is what threw Z off balance and he fell backwards. Even assuming Martin confronted Z and threw the first blow, how does a guy like Zimmerman get onto his back? The only way I can see for Zimmerman to get in that position, is to be taken by surprise when he tried to apprehend Martin.
Manny O,
Zimmerman pursued Martin against dispatch instructions, against Neighborhood Watch policy, and against reason and common sense, and against normal human decency, and produced a confrontation, and used that as an excuse to murder an unarmed kid.
All your denial about that notwithstanding.
When you said, “You gave all these scenarios where it would not be okay for Martin to unleash his tirade of violence on a stranger coming up to them, but give him a pass if its “dark” and his escape is blocked” — you assumed a fact not in evidence, your “fact” was:
“Martin…unleash[ed] his tirade of violence on a stranger…”
You will only be able to get that allegation into evidence as a proposed “fact” if Zimmerman testifies.
You can believe it, others can believe it, but it can’t get into court unless Zimmerman says it under oath, and THEN he gets cross-examined.
Print up this thread a send a copy to O’Mara.
Hi All,
Those that still doubt that the drugs Martin had been taking can do anything but turn him into a calm pansy, just look at the anecdotal comment of one of the posters…they said “I can’t smoke weed, it makes me paranoid”. Paranoia can make people do crazy things
Malisha – You gave all these scenarios where it would not be okay for Martin to unleash his tirade of violence on a stranger coming up to them, but give him a pass if its “dark” and his escape is blocked. First, its pretty unlikely his escape was blocked, there aren’t any dead end alleys in a living community, just a grid system with houses and decorative brush
We already know Martin wasn’t interested in merely “escaping” or he would have after he floored Zimmerman…that actually further supports that Martin was the one that produced the confrontation. Second the whole basis of the argument that you have maintained that Martin essentially gets a pass on “any” level of violence just by his own state of mind is totally without merit.
His state of mind could have been anything, just because he has some whacked out state of mind doesn’t give him license to commit violence.
Do you realize there are people in prison doing 20 years to life because they were in a bar with their wife playing pool and some guy comes over and pinches his wife’s but them slaps her across the face when she recoils…the husband comes over and decks the guy and it just so happened the guy had some kind of jaw problem where the one punch to the face ends up killing him. The husband got put away!. But by your logic the husband’s state of mind should have given him a pass on beating the hell out of the scumbag because in the husbands mind he and his wife “felt threatened”.
To the person who said: But we DO know that it was not Trayvon Martin’s fault. We know that because he didn’t look for any fight, he didn’t look for any confrontation, and he was not committing any crime.
Au contraire…we don’t know “he didn’t look for any fight or that we wasn’t thwarted in crime by Zimmerman”
The ONLY data we have his Zimmerman’s verbal agreement not to follow Martin and Zimmermans statement that Martin, after initially leaving sight came up behind Zimmerman’s flank and attacked him after talking smack to him
Its certainly plausible that Martin was paranoid at this guy watching him, and decided to beat him up to teach him a lesson about watching him. Heck, criminals in prison kill other inmates just for looking at them….
To patricparamedic: Your point about kids saying one thing and then disobeying parents once they are out of sight…sure…but
But what would zimmerman have to have said to satisfy you that he wasn’t just lying to the dispatcher when he said “Ok” [i won’t try to find him]
What else could he have said? Ok mr dispatcher,,I swear on my grandmothers grave I won’t
It would have been one thing if he just said nothing sullenly…sure it would make sense he probably just ignored the dispatch, but no, without hesitation, he simply said “ok”…no guile there.
At this point all evidence points to Martin producing the confrontation with Zimmerman. I agree that evidence is just the 911 calls “ok” and Zimmerman’s own statement, but its all there is.
So please, stop declaring the pseudo-fact that “Zimmerman pursued Martin against dispatch instruction and produced a confrontation” There is simply no data to directly support that and if there is then CITE IT
Thanks
Manny
Tony C, I agree with you that the case was under-charged, and I believe that was done to avoid the Grand Jury so there couldn’t be a “grand jury nullification” in Sanford, which would have been more fodder for the feds to investigate. Corey was in a tough situation, and I think she chose wisely to use the evidence she had (bullet went in at no angle at all, straight in, at intermediate range) so as to keep this from getting completely out of control for her county (read “for her career”).
Shano, I listened to the tape over and over and over again. I made myself deliberately callous to do so. I came to the point of a certain ability to identify with the screams (right before the shot) so that I could hear them, and still, couldn’t hear them. I don’t think there will be a trial; if O’Mara is as smart as he seems, there will be no trial. But the publicity now, with poor George’s head all over the place and all the boo hoo for Georgie, is designed to make it possible for him to negotiate a shorter, rather than longer, incarceration for his client.
This is theater. If I were Trayvon’s mother, I would feel offended by it. If I were Zimmerman’s mother, I would probably feel conflicted but relieved (because the more there is, the more chance my son will be enabled to escape serious punishment). As I am Daniel’s mother (someone who has never been to Sanford, Florida), I want to let this case make its mark on me and on his memory of me by analyzing every bit of it as well as I can so that he can understand what happened to his country because of this case.
leander, I cannot listen to that tape. It is too emotional for me. Cannot do it.
My lawyer told me to never, ever tell anyone if you smoke marijuana. That is the surealism of having this plant classified as a Schedule 1 Drug. It is a very effective for pain relief & is an anti tumor agent.
We know these things even though governments around the world with the help of the US have been making any research on pot ridiculously difficult.
Humans have cannabinoid receptors all over their body, in every organ. Medicine should be able to take advantage of this biological fact.
returning to the documents.
Message to Tony, to make me join Shano’s assessment, I would need to hear continued cries, to accept, that yes, there is no “interference by body movement” or changing patterns suggestive of punches, but they aren’t continued. At least they don’t feel like that to me. I don’t hear anything anything that suggests they couldn’t be related to a struggle. But of course in this case I know what I am hearing, and I can’t get the knowledge out of my interpretation.
I can’t smoke pot, I get freakishly paranoid. Which proves nothing about this case. I read all the things that M. was involved in.
full disclosure, marijuana would be my favorite recreational drug, ideally sativa, if it was legal. I do not have the slightest interest in looking for someone selling it to me, although people tell me it is almost before my door.
Concerning paranoia, well that may be due to the awareness you are doing something forbidden, no? I vividly remember my brother’s reaction ages, and ages ago. He was expecting to see white mice or something and waited for something extraordinary. In end nothing of what he expected happened, so he had two questions. What is the big fuss about this, and why do you like it?
Concerning all the things M. was involved in, I am getting more and more interested in the facts around these stories. Just as in the exact details in who exactly hacked his site. I surely hope some experts will look into this.
“I Know He Was Scared”: Trayvon Martin’s Girlfriend Recounts Phone Call Right Before Fatal Shooting
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/18/i_know_he_was_scared_trayvon
“Florida prosecutors have released a trove of documents, photographs and audio recordings revealing new details about the night George Zimmerman shot dead the unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Florida. We broadcast excerpts of the chilling recording of the police interview with Trayvon’s girlfriend. She and Trayvon were talking on the phone in the moments leading up to his death. “I know he was scared,” the girl recounts. “I told him, ‘Keep running!’ … He told me the guy was getting real close to him. And the next I hear is [Trayvon saying], ‘Why are you following me for?’ … I heard this man… say, ‘What are you doing around here?’ … And I call Trayvon, ‘Trayon, what’s going on? What’s going on?’ … Then, I am calling him and he didn’t answer…You could hear someone had bumped Trayvon…I was still screaming, I was saying, ‘Trayvon! Trayvon!’…And then the next thing the phone just shut off.””
Ben Jealous on DemocracyNow! earlier today:
Ben Jealous: “Heartbreaking” Trayvon Tapes Capture Experience of Millions Racially Profiled in U.S.
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/18/ben_jealous_heartbreaking_trayvon_tapes_capture
download: Video/Audio
“Benjamin Jealous, the president and CEO of the NAACP, joins us to react to the new audio recordings and documents released in the investigation of Trayvon Martin’s killing. The evidence indicates a fight occurred between Martin and his alleged killed George Zimmerman, but police determined the deadly encounter was “ultimately avoidable” if Zimmerman had not pursued Martin. An autopsy also shows Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range.” Reacting to a recording of Martin’s girlfriend recounting her phone call with Martin moments before his death, Jealous says: “It’s heartbreaking to listen to his childhood girlfriend talk about the experience of listening to him be hunted on the street just before he was killed. It dramatizes for people the experience of millions of young people across this country every year when they are racially profiled, whether it’s by community watch volunteers or by cops.””
malisha
where did the compromised mental state come from or is that just your assumption? it sure isn’t on the 911 call. i haven’t seen or heard that and i want to know where you got it. you can prove to everyone that your not just spewing hate or you ccan prove that you know any facts about this case at all. so where is the report that z had a compromised mental state.? put up or shut up. it’s that simple
Tony C. Yes, I completely agree with your brilliant observations here. The sociopath George Zimmerman thinks for a spit second that Trayvon will wreck his career before it starts if he is allowed to talk to the cops, and shoots him in cold blood.
The physical damage done to Zimmerman by Martin was too humiliating to bear if he was not “fighting for my life”. After all he is the former bouncer getting his ass kicked by a slim reed of a teenager.
We may be on the more radical side of opinion, but it is a very logical grassy knoll.
to aouthern bell
top shot here. i think you are absolutly right. that makes much more since then all this lies and one sided, blind sided notions about what happened that night. people refuse to listen to, or they twist facts to suit there apinions. grand jurys don’t do that. i read the twitter pages that they copyed of martins before they took it down. you actually have to clickon a thing befoer you can go to the pager.it states that it was made only for adults and might be offensive to some people. i;m a grown man and i can’t believe some of the stuff this kid says. it’s unnecessarily vulgur. just plain grose. he talks to women like they were dogs. he obviously no respect for anything.or anyone.l
southernell
It should be a law that every case involving a homicide should go to a grand jury. I heard Corey state that not one of her cases had went to a g.j. Well, I don’t necessarily think that’s a good thing. Especially in light of another case that she was involved in. I can’t smoke pot, I get freakishly paranoid. Which proves nothing about this case. I read all the things that M. was involved in. No wonder his mom sent him to his dad’s. I would have too. A grand jury would have been the best thing for everyone involved. Now, go ahead everyone, tell me how ignorant I am for even thinking that.
@leander22: I have in mind the 911 call I heard, by a woman, about somebody crying for help behind her house. What else is said on that call may or may not be important, what I am focusing on is the long drawn out nature of the yell; it sounds typical to me of a full yell that expels as much air as possible from the lungs in trying to achieve maximum volume, without interference by body movement or alteration of breathing by exertion, twisting, or being hit or pushed. When people fight their breath is in short chops, sometimes held and sometimes expelled explosively or taken in gasps.
This series of yells for help does not sound like a person fighting: I believe the length of the “sustained note” in those yells is not possible during a struggle; and I believe somebody more expert in voice mechanics than me could put some authority behind that.
I do not believe the person yelling for help on that tape was engaged in a fight.
I agree with Tony C. A person being hit repeatedly in the head, would not have an uninterupted cry. There would be interuptions at each hit, and I wonder how Zimmerman had the chance to get his gun out with one hand while simultaneously warding off the rain of blows that were life threatening.
If I were the prosecutor, I would love to get Z on the stand and cross examine him. There are so many questions that could blow holes in his story, that it would leave him bleeding worse than he was on that night.
I think those cries are made by a person physically at rest, specifically
do you have the female witness in mind, Tony? The one who immediate thinks about an elder man a couple of houses away from her? It would be an enormous coincidence, if someone else cried at the same time. I am not suggesting it’s impossible. But the cries are clearly out in the open and don’t come from inside a house, it feels.
But strictly I asked myself too, if it could be two different voices, the last before the shot seems slightly more pitched and terrified, different to the ones before. It’s a pity that we cannot hear the whole scene acoustically because of the long blank, they could blank out the details for us. 😉
Can you understand, what exactly the man in the background says shortly before the shot and what the lady is answers? I don’t trust myself completely at that point. Also I wonder, from the little we hear, if in the early shouts something is articulated, but I don’t seem to get that either, no matter how often I listen to it.
It surely makes no sense to accept both Zimmerman’s statement that Trayvon had his hand over his mouth and he is still able to articulate these kind of cries. It’s either or.
Elaine: I have read that Trayvon’s mother also identified the voice on the tape as Trayvon’s.
For those unfamiliar with the law, recognizing somebody’s voice can be sworn testimony and it has contributed to convictions in the past.
I think Zimmerman’s voice (for example, from the 911 tapes) can be examined and we can electronically get a probability that was HIS voice yelling for help. I think it was Trayvon and Zimmerman will not match, and that will add another lie to his story.
to manny o
I find your comments very unbiased and accurate. I recorded the bond hearing and Omara had the lead detective sworn in to testify. Omara. do you have any evidence that z. pursued M. answer. no. Omara, I mean to this day, right now, do you have any evidence that Z pursued M. answer, no. Omara, do you have physicians report of Z injuries. answer No. Omara, have you requested injury reports of Z injuries that night. answer. no. They charged z without looking or reading any reports on Z injuries. I just heard the state att. question M. girlfriend, the ear witness. Please take the time to find it and listen. I can’t believe that this is the states star witness. She proves nothing. She does try to get M. to run, he said, no, I;m not running. She heard ‘the grass’ what the hell. the grass?, she does say that m was close to his dads house and that z. was getting closer. Depending where z started walking towards M. it’s impossible to tell how close, could be any distance away. No way to tell how close Z was. She says T was hollering, but before that she states she could barely hear anything but the grass. She was hearing this from a blue tooth headset that was probably been knocked off and no telling where it way laying. .. Just wanted to say manny o that it’s really nice to hear from someone that considers all facts. comments he made on twitter have been dl and saved before site was shut down. You can read his tweets and form your own opinion as to M. You hear everything bad about Z on here. nothing about M. check out his background according to school officials, not pleasant.
Cops, Witnesses Back Up George Zimmerman’s Version of Trayvon Martin Shooting
http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-witnesses-back-george-zimmermans-version/story?id=16371852#.T7ZDRhzFH1E
Excerpt:
It has been such a contentious case that even the evidence is being disputed.
The police report states that Trayvon Martin’s father told an investigator after listening to 911 tapes that captured a man’s voice frantically callling for help that it was not his son calling for help.
But Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s father, claims that is not true. The Martin family lawyer Ben Crump told ABC News that Tracy Martin initially listened to a distorted version of the 911 calls and said he could not identify the voice. But when he listened to a second tape that had been “cleaned,” “He immediately broke down in tears because he knew it was his son calling for help,” Crump said.