The evidence for the trial of George Zimmerman is slowly taking form. Yesterday, a medical report was disclosed by the family physician of George Zimmerman where the doctor found a “closed fracture” of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Trayvon Martin. While this is the family physician, it would still constitute important evidence in claiming self-defense, particularly when combined with accounts from the paramedics that found injuries to Zimmerman. An autopsy report released today also revealed bruises on Martin’s knuckles, consistent with a fight (though they could be bruises sustained in self-defense). In the meantime, the Justice Department has indicated that it may bring hate crime charges against Zimmerman — charges that would be questionable on the current evidence that has been made public in the case.
The prosecution is likely to explore any differences between the paramedics and the doctor. Some issues are likely to be raise such as whether the paramedics saw a broken nose and whether such “closed fractures” can be easily missed by a paramedic on an street at night. Moreover, such injuries could be sustained by Zimmerman as a result of Martin defending himself.
The leak of possible civil rights charges may be designed to try to get Zimmerman to accept a plea with prosecutors. I have reservations about such a charge based on the evidence that is available — as I have expressed over the overcharging in the case as second degree murder. This case has already raised serious questions of the influence of public pressure on the prosecutors. While there may be additional evidence that would support such a hate crime charge, the current evidence, in my view, falls short of the threshold showing needed for such a charge. The crime is defined as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.” The “in part” component gives some wiggle room for prosecutors but you need to still show clear intent on the race issue. While state courts have rejected the need under state law for race to be the “primary” factor, there remains unease in cases where race appears a secondary issue. The Justice Department has sometimes moved against defendants who were acquitted of the same offense under state law as in the Pennsylvania case involving the death of a hispanic man. These cases raise serious questions of when trash talk reflects racial motivations.
We have seen the same type of claim under “Stand Your Ground” in mixed-race shootings without such hate crime allegations. I have previously express unease over the standard used for hate crime charges and the decision to pursue some cases while refusing to move on others with similar or stronger facts. This is a case that could be explained as a crime-obsessed as opposed to a race-obsessed neighborhood watch captain. Indeed, Zimmerman’s past violent record may indicate that he is prone to violence generally. There has been no new evidence revealed that shows that Zimmerman’s shooting was race motivated. His own mixed race background and injuries from the fight militate against such a charge. They certainly do not rule out such a charge, but more has to be shown in my view.
The case is already over-charged as second degree murder. If the Justice Department is going to bring a hate crime charge, it better have stronger evidence than we have seen from Angela Corey to support a second-degree murder charge. Corey was in my view clearly affected by the public pressure in the case in charging the case as second degree murder rather than manslaughter. I am equally troubled by Attorney General Eric Holder discussing the case in public speeches when his department is supposed to be conducting an unbiased review of the facts involving a man who has not been convicted of a crime.
The combination of the leak on the civil rights charges and Holder’s public statements leave the impression that the DOJ will not accept acquittal as an answer in the case if Zimmerman does prevail. The impression, in my view, diminishes the appearance of due process and fair trial for the accused.
What do you think?
Source: ABC
Malisha – Why do you assume that Zimmerman followed Martin when you can’t produce a cite of a witness report or police report or video or anything…and whats worse there is even contrary evidence of Zimmerman verbally agreeing to not follow him on the 911 call?
Your entire previous post is based on this unproven uncitable premise. I know you are reasonable, but why do you continue to assume this is an incontrovertible fact in light of literally zero citable data beyond others equally as baseless impassioned opinions?
manny o
My wife was the one that made the statement about mj making her paranoid. It’s totally true. She was never a big smoker and doesn’t smoke anything now, but I have to tell you, we had some laughs at her expense. Thanks for talking civil to me, I have offended others and I’ve been called, accused of just about everything. I was even called the village idiot. They are so ignorant they believe each and every post is directed towards them personally and that I’m a hater and a racist. Don’t they realize lawyers of every ilk pay certain ppl big money to blog. It’s a great investigative tool for the whole firm. I was just wondering what your opinion was of the girlfriends deposition. Did you conclude what might be ANY factual evidence from it?.
Can Martin do no wrong in spite of the data that has come forth on the nature of who he really was?
Its just hard to believe he was wearing his halo that night while wandering the complex looking at various houses when his own school reported the stolen womens jewlery with no reasonable explanation:
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/school-report-trayvon-martin-found-jewelry-and-burglary-tool
And Trayvon Martin’s own twitter account (@NO_LIMIT_NIGxA) has him self-reporting on Feb 21 that he “swung on the bus driver” as his buddies are “amazed”. Did the bus driver look/say something wrong to him to “deserve” that as so many imply with Zimmerman “deserving” to be attacked just a few nights later?
Then there is the popularize facebook posting on Feb 5 where his buddy asks “Trayvon Slimm Martin”
Martin buddy:Yeoo happy birthday! but pik up the fone or hmu we got business to talk!
Martin: NO PHON
Martin buddy: damn where you at nigxa needa plant
this all goes to Martin’s recent character…not something he did years prior, but literally days prior.
Manny O, it would be OK to attribute Trayvon Martin’s probable suspicion that Zimmerman was “up to no good” to “paranoia” if, and only if, that were not in fact the case. Very obviously, that WAS in fact the case. He did not imagine that Zimmerman was spotting him and “marking” him while he was in the car; he told the police he spotted a “suspicious looking” guy. He did not imagine that Zimmerman got out of the car and followed him; in fact, Zimmerman got OUT of the car and followed him; He did not imagine that there was something not OK about what Zimmerman was doing. All rational police and all rational neighborhood watch people agree that he should not have followed Martin and that he especially should not have carried a loaded gun and followed Martin. Nothing about what Martin thought about Zimmerman was paranoid; it was all correct.
Should Martin have thought himself in danger?
Damn right; four minutes later he was dead. That was pretty dangerous!
Nothing about Martin’s reactions of that night is attributable to marijuana or THC; everything about that night is attributable to Zimmerman and his completely unwarranted, unreasonable, inappropriate, paranoid (HE thought Trayvon Martin was a criminal when he had no reason to think that) and homicidal conduct.
The point about marijuana is that in people it can certainly cause paranoia (is someone watching me? do they know I am high/doing something I shouldnt?, etc) not just when high but for habitual chronic users it can make them paranoid even when not immediately high as long term use affects brain chemistry. Its common enough that people on this board have self-reported themselves becoming paranoid from its use so its not just some infinitesimally small percentage that have that reaction so we can’t just sweep it under the rug. The paranoia is what can become dangerous, just like with alcohol except in the case of alchohol it lowers the social inhibitions and indirectly results in amplifying whatever you already were (a mean person/drunk or a lovey-dovey person/drunk).
Take someone who is already a loose cannon, full of hormones, angry/unstable, add in some fear/paranoia and watch the fireworks
Another factor noone has mentioned is the types of marijuana, there’s sativa which acts as a stimulant and appetite increaser (cancer patients take this for energy to get our of bed) and there is indica which acts as a downer and decreases your appetite. The sativa is far more popular these days and that is what gives people the “munchies”. Indica is what mellows someone out and makes them veg…but both can still cause extreme paranoia
keep in mind im not talking about urine or hair follicle test here…those can detect thc months after the intoxication. Blood is totally different
Whenever there is any non-zero trace of THC in the blood found at X point in time it specifically indicates 1 of two possibilities:
1) the person was high at some point within the last 0-4 hours from when the test was done and is possibly a somewhat casual user (not an every day user)
or
2) the person had to be high multiple times within the last 24 hours (but not necessarily the last 4 hours however they are definitely a chronic longterm multiple time a day user
Either way its bad news if its found in your blood and implicates very recent intoxication whereas urine/hair doesnt really provide any reasonably time-limited implication of intoxication
we were out cruising one night and she was driving. she turns on her blinker, turns on a side street, stops, puts it in park. after about 10 min. of just sitting there, i was in no pain either, i finally said, why are we sitting here. she said, didn’t you see the cop turn his cherries on. long story short. she looked in her rear view mirror, saw brake lights from a car we had just met. and thought she was being pulled over by the cops. you can’t drive over 20 mph. she starts screaming, crying, telling you to slow down or let her out. needless to say, she hasn’t smoked in a while. her sister was the same way. just one more thing, she sat and listened attentively to the radio one night, which would have been perfectly normal, had the radio been playing something besides static. for over two hours she listened to static on the radio. that marijuana paranoia.
TS Wife: “name calling and such is not my style but i’ve lowered myself to that point on here.”
So it’s the fault of the Turley blog that you have had to lower yourself? “It’s the blog speaking?”
Well maybe there’s a lesson in that. Maybe physical self-defense was not Trayvon Martin’s style but he had to lower himself to that when he was in Twin Oaks on 2/26/2012. Some of us get choice, others have to lower ourselves based on the environmental factors presented.
RE: Alcohol vs. Marijuana (neither of which is relevant to what Trayvon Martin allegedly did as he was trying to avoid being murdered):
My son went to University of Virginia. He came from a fairly “sheltered” background and had not seen much violence except on TV or in the movies (and I screened for violence in movies and so forth but his father did not, so I’d say his exposure was average for late 1990s when he started college and went off to live on his own).
He went to a party and there was a lot of drinking there and a guy started “beating up his girlfriend” and Danny and three of his friends intervened and pulled the guy off a couple of times. But the guy started up again and this time the girl was screaming and being seriously hurt and Danny and his buddies restrained the attacker, phoned 911, and were (idiotically!) told to bring the guy in THEMSELVES (to the ER, not to the police station) because the cops were too busy with other drunken parties right then to send someone. Danny and the others forced the guy into the car and drove him to the ER, where he proceeded to destroy a crash cart and threaten two hospital employees until he was restrained and sedated. Danny waited for the police to show up and he and his friends gave witness statements and waited around to see what would happen and whether they would need to drive the guy back home.
An officer started a friendly conversation with my son about his experience, because my son was totally amazed, shocked, horrified, etc., not only about the guy’s behavior but also abut the police response. The cop told him: “I wish the kids would go back to smoking pot around here. The campus was so mellow back then; we never had these kinds of things. We’d play board games on Saturday nights because the kids were all sitting around getting high and playing music! Now that they’re drinking, we have the jails full, the hospital E.R. full, the kids falling down stairs and breaking their damn necks, it’s just ridiculous.”
shano
i hate to see you go. but i think we’ll go with you. name calling and such is not my style but i’ve lowered myself to that point on here. i’m going to find out where z. was a bouncer at. and i want to know if there were x rays done. no matter how valid your statement, it will be of no difference here. i read m. had his hands over both z. nose and mouth. add to that being straddled by him. and h’es a big man, just look at the video, i can’t imagine z. was able to breathe. if anything, m. should have gotten off and ran, that’s what i would have done.that is if i were scared and not wanting to beat the shit out of someone. that’s another way it could have been avoided. but no matter. z. has been judged and found guilty here. and if you want any info about z. check out the reuters inv. that was done on him .maybe they will do one on m. hubby says to judge any injury, especially a head injury just by looks is totally stupid. i’m sure there was an x ray done at one time. he also says hitting someone in the mouth is stupid, hit where you can do some damage, not just where it will show the most. that’s one area he knows about. mma is damaging and not bad to show a large amount of visible proof. the interview heard someone bump trayvon, then she heard the grass. how did she hear the wet grass and how does she know it was m. that was bumped. i want to see O’mara’s cross on that one. I thought that phone call would be something conclusive maybe. not so. it adds more doubt then anything.
Anybody hear the interview of the guy who worked with Zimmerman in 2008 and described him as a bully? The interesting thing in that interview, to me, came toward the end. George Zimmerman was ultimately fired, it seems, for calling HR over and over and over with his pestiferous complaints about everybody and everything. He was an attention-getter and he got attention by complaining about the conduct of those around him, with bogus complaints, and he made it impossible for people to just get along and do their jobs. The interesting thing is that he bullied the fellow he worked with because he was Middle Eastern, but the guy thought that Zimmerman would just bully whomever he could “target” — and that is a very interesting thought. Whomever he could “target.”
ARE, you can chase your dogs through the woods, but if you catch them, they’re allowed to stand their ground. (Talkindog, back me up here.)
I catch them all the time, but only after they have worn me out. They think it is a great game to see who can run the farthest and they prove that every time. The game of chase is only good as long as somebody is chasing you.
Shano, furthermore, if Martin is shot THROUGH THE HEART while Zimmerman is under him, no way there are a few drops of splatter blood on Zimmerman’s clothes; Zimmerman is FLOODED with Martin’s blood.
AND he has to throw the body OFF him and onto the ground and push it over face down to have it where the police find it. I don’t think it can be worked out. I can envision a couple of jointed figurines to work out the various physical possibilities — surely the prosecution can show that the various scenarios suggested by Zimmerman won’t work but that’s not really important unless O’Mara wants to risk putting him up as a witness.
I am fascinated by it, though. We have Zimmerman’s imagination about what Martin did compounded by Zimmerman’s overactive imagination about what he himself did (Can you imagine anyone saying to the police as he is being cuffed, having killed someone, “I was calling for help but nobody would help me”?) (Can you imagine “You got me”?) (etc.)
In one way I would hate to contribute to a NCR plea, but on the other hand… some of this stuff doesn’t sound very sane to me.
Shano, they don’t work. Like the first “mark” on the right upper area of Zimmerman’s head (crown) on the police booking video didn’t work. Like the “ambush on the way back to the vehicle” doesn’t work. The distance was not “close range” but “intermediate.” The angle was “straight in” rather than up OR down. I think the inhuman screams we heard on the schoolteacher’s 911 call were Martin pleading with the shooter NOT TO SHOOT when the gun was visible, right in front of his face, and Zimmerman’s face was out of control with rage. No proof, but it makes more sense with the physical evidence than the story (even after it was changed three times) offered by the apologists. We’d need a good stunt man working with a ballistics expert and a talented biomedical physicist to iron it out.
The criminal court papers and the restraining orders are practically information free. In my experience, this only happens when the person’s lawyer makes all the arrangements and therefore, nothing appears in the file. “It happened; it unhappened; here’s the number of its temporary happening; good-bye” is the general tone of the thing.
In 2010 a two-month-old baby in foster care was negligently killed (so far as we know) in Delaware. The person responsible was charged with “endangerment.” Her lawyer worked it out so that she didn’t even have to enter the PLEA in open court; all done in chambers. She did not elocute. Nothing was recorded in the file. She got a year’s inactive probation. No victim impact statement. No pre-sentence report as required by law. A stone dropped in the water. She was advised to be careful and not to drink alcohol for the year she was on probation. She was pregnant at the time of her sentencing. She was not monitored for competency to have sole care, custody and control of that baby, either.
Criminal justice system, anyone?
Malisha, I keep trying to square this with the Trayvon on top, Zimmerman on bottom. I have human figure drawing in my background.
So, do you get a straight line if Martin is hunched over GZ while he is sitting on him? Not really, I think Trayvons torso is too long for that to work…..there are not many positions where you get a direct line from Georges hand through Martins heart.
Strange thing: Autopsy report says the bullet went in at NO ANGLE and at “Intermediate” range. Yet headlines say “close range.” What’s that about?
I purchased the criminal court records on Zimmerman but haven’t read them yet, will report back.
I’m not betting it makes sense to assume Zimmerman shot Martin from underneath him; the bullet went in at NO angle, straight in. Zimmerman’s arm, straight out, would be heart-level in Martin’s chest.
Arthur – Not sure whats more shocking and astounding…the questions you pose as if there is no other explanation or the vehemence with which you write them. As far as “try an answer that one” you might as well ask how someone can eat a PB&J when two different ingredients are required. The question shows your lack of imagination, at best, and to answer it is pointless at is it is to ask it. Sorry, but done with your posts, there are plenty of other posters on this thread that make more sense to discuss real points with. You berated TopShotsWife for being immature, but your behavior and accusations are what screams immaturity and inexperience
No one is accusing Z of a ‘race killing’ here.
Martin had ONE cut on his left ring finger that was 1/4 inch long.
No Manny, we just wish he had gone to the ER to get an objective report, a drug test and an x-ray for that broken nose..
Thank you for the comma offer but typos are just a fact, A FACT of life. And I’m not too swift erb, Now come on, you can do better then that. That’s another judgement call by you, which you can not possibly discern . I would however, like to know where I might find substance to the statement you made that Z. was a bouncer. I find that interesting and something I didn’t know. It would seem that he would have been better at defending himself with that previous employment experience. Of course, M would have been a worthy opponent for most anyone. I’m just stating that no one knows the severity, or lack thereof, of Z injuries. I can not imagine any physician stating on record, a legal document in any situation, that Z. nose was broken when in all reality it can be proved otherwise. Especially knowing that it will be scrutinized to the nth during a trial with a murder 2 charge. In good conscience, I can not agree with anyone that this was a racial homicide. Finding him guilty is one thing, but accusing Z. of a race killing is as unjust as a wrongful conviction. I, like most everyone, accused, cursed, swore the woman had killed her child. I watched the trial, and with utter disbelief, realized that my judgement came from any and everything but the actual facts. The real shame of that case came after the verdict. That the public outrage caused the jurors to live in fear. And I never understood why the public wasn’t celebrating the fact that the system actually worked. That they weren’t swayed in any way by outside influence. Did I think she was guilty? Yes I did and I still do. The state didn’t prove there case and the jury took there jobs seriously and only ruled on the evidence. To me, that jury should have been commended, instead they were afraid for there lives.
Sorry TS wife, I don’t have the source on the bouncer job, but it was reported in many media outlets along with Zimmerman’s arrest for assaulting a cop which was plead down for a plea deal. That shows a propensity for violence in my view. In all my wild days, I never tried or even thought of hitting a cop. I Knew better since my ass would have been really whipped BAD. I would NOT look as good as Zimmerman did by a long shot.
I just heard Martin’s girl friend telling a cop what she heard. She stated that she heard a voice ask “What are you doing here?” and repeat it. I did not hear her statement on Martins reply if there was one. Then she heard Martin say “GET OFF” a couple of times, then the phone went dead. That gives me a better idea of what happened.
Zimmerman confronted Martin aggressively, Martin did not respond or turned away, Zimmerman grabbed his arm to keep him there, Martin said get off. Then when Zimmerman did not let go, spun, hit Zimmerman and pushed him down. He then got on top and tried to hit Zimmerman a number of times. I don’t know if he stopped, or if Zimmerman could ward off the multiple blows with one arm. In any case, Z got an arm free, to get his gun, and shot Martin. That scenario agrees with all the facts in evidence now. There may be more surprises or new evidence coming out later, but for now, that is my take on this.
Mr. Erb
The only information I have is that Z got into an altercation with two plain clothes policemen. He stated that he didn’t realize at the time that they were cops because of the plain clothes. It was stated that he was helping a friend. Whether any of this is true or not I have no idea. Are there other altercations with authorities that I haven’t read about yet?
thank you
Arthur – Get a grip…you are missing the forest for the trees. You call someone out as posting BS and then when shown your error through several links to reports you just can’t leave it alone. The whole point of what I guess I will call the “mma” point is that martin was in fact straddling him and beating him up, not the flavor of fighting used, but feel free to glom onto an insignifant detail when the main point as been entirely overturned, but most wont listen any further.
The paramedics cleaned/addressed his wounds. bandaids or no bandaids, it takes a significant amount of force to split a head open in two different places. one was a 1 inch laceration. Head injuries are ALWAYS serious, period. Just look it up. The amount of blood or persistence of bleeding is in now way a reliable measure of seriousness, but to an amateur i can understand how they might think that…without looking/researching any further
So now you doubt the medical report or the competence of the Dr issuing it? They are all in cahoots with the bad ole police and all those other bad ole people that aren’t zimmerman accusers ehh? Obviously you are out of gas and grasping at straws here…
now to answer your just posted questions then Im done with this nonsense
He has cuts (picture link posted previously)
He has swelling(see b/w picture posted of broken nose)
He has abrasions( see picture link posted previously)
Broken teeth/split-swollen lip? Is that a requirement for it be a real “beating”? According to who? Just because he may not have taken hits directly to the mouth doesn’t mean the rest of his head wasn’t beaten as the pictures clearly show. And by the way anyone who knows fighting knows that hitting in the mouth is a bad idea as the teeth can tear up your fists and lodge bacteria in the hands of the one throwing blows causing terrible infection. But if you got beat up by an idiot I can see how they might have hit you in the mouth not knowing any better
He has plenty of indications of being beat…and you know what else?
Martin only had abrasions/scratchs on his knuckles…because he was beating Zimmerman. He was the one with no scratch on him aside from what he gave his own knuckes while viciously beating zimmerman in a pinned state.
Thats it, for your ‘points’. Please spare us the conspiracy theory filler it just undermines your credibility/seriousness
Manny O, then when shown your error through several links to reports you just can’t leave it alone.
The reason I will not leave the report linked alone is that the one who posted is was WRONG in what it said.
I am glad to see that you are dropping the MMA thing since I PROVED it was the COP who said that and that is was impossible to see such a thing and you cannot tell anybody else what a MMA hit is.
I see that you have not been in a fist fight. I never knew that I should be able to call my shots so well. Let me see, this blow should be to the right eye, and the next one will be to the nose, etc..In fact most of my swings MISSED! in fact, even professional boxers miss most of their shots too or have them blocked. If Martin had made a solid hit anywhere on Zimmerman’s head, it would have showed up on his face in SOME way. The only way to avoid that is if a small child is doing the hitting. Martin was a LONG way from that. In fact, Zimmerman blocked all of Martin’s hits which is why he is virtually unmarked except for the first nose hit.
Then we have an even more pressing question which is in the flurry of blows, how was Zimmerman able to get his gun out without getting hit by Martin? I guess Z was simply using one arm, or Martin had stopped. If Martin had kept up thowing punches. Zimmerman would have gotten a hit on his face that would show up, or Martin was incredibly inept and Z could defend himself with one arm. Try answering that question.