The evidence continues to roll in on the Zimmerman case. While the new evidence is not entirely bad for the prosecution, it does contain some evidence that will likely bolster the defense of George Zimmerman in the second degree murder trial over the killing of Trayvon Martin. Regardless of the ultimate impact, the evidence again shows (in my opinion) that prosecutor Angela Corey over-charged the case in Florida.
Some of the new evidence shows that Martin had traces of THC (the active ingredient of marijuana) in his blood stream and urine. Martin was suspended from school due to a marijuana offense (though it involved an empty marijuana baggie). Another benefit to the defense is that Martin father is shown denying that the voice calling out for help was his son — though he later changed that view when he says he was given a better recording. Other witnesses have indicated that it Zimmerman who was calling for help.
Generally, the existence of drugs in the system of a victim or defendant is admissible. The suspension would appear inadmissible under standard evidentiary rules.
There is also evidence that some neighbors described Zimmerman as a bully and a racist. That would help bolster the reported hate crimes prosecution being considered by the Obama Administration, though I still have reservations based on the evidence as it currently stands. Also the police viewed the shooting as “avoidable” — if Zimmerman had left the matter to the police.
I am not sure how much of the neighbor’s view of Zimmerman as a bully or racist could come into evidence. Such accounts, however, can have the benefit of further discouraging Zimmerman from taking the stand as a witness — always a benefit to the prosecution because (while they are told that a defendant has a right not to testify (jurors expect to hear from defendants).
On the whole, however, I would view the evidence as more positive to the defense. First, I have previously said that I was most interested in the distance of the shot and forensics. It now appears that Martin was shot from an intermediate range (no more than 18 inches and as little as an inch away). That would support the claim of Zimmerman that they were in a wrestling fight when the gun was fired. The greater the distance the stronger the case for the prosecution. The defense will likely present expert testimony to try to reduce the range further on the stand. Also, the report does have people at the scene saying that Zimmerman’s nose appeared broken — supporting the later medical report of the family doctor (though such injuries could occur from Martin defending himself).
Moreover, at least two witnesses appear to support Zimmerman in describing the man in the hoodie at straddling the other man and throwing punches. The report state that the man in the “‘hoodie’ [was] on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches ‘MMA (mixed martial arts) style.’ He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass.” One report also says that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight.
While the reports blame Zimmerman for getting out of his vehicle (he says that he was trying to get a house number for the police), that is not itself a crime. Of course, none of this means that Zimmerman was not the aggressor. Given the presumption of innocence and the need to prove the elements beyond a reasonable doubt, this evidence presents an added problem for the prosecution in my view. I have expressed skepticism over the way the case has developed and how it has been charged from the outset. As a criminal defense attorney, I would view this as a strong defense case even on the manslaughter charge, particularly given the poor police work at the scene.
What do you think?
Here is the police report.
Source: ABC and NY Daily News
Manny O, you can find a way that it could have happened so long as you START with the idea that bad thug Trayvon hunted down and tried to kill good George. But any number of ideas like that will not have the virtue of agreeing with the stories George initially told the cops. Nor is it logical for any fact-finder (judge or jury) to start where you started, with the firm belief that Martin was the aggressor that night.
my last comment, surprise or question was based on this:
Try to explain why he has exited, that is runs out of the gate community, and then enters again. And where exactly does he enter again, and why first leave and then return. Motives? Intentions? Reasons, for this behavior?
And of those 420 calls Zimmerman was responsible for less than ONE THIRD OF ONE PERCENT of those calls.
I am sorry, Manny, this is dividing apples by bananas, if you ask me, or days with Zimmerman’s calls.
But you are, correct, I misread what you wrote, you use dot’s in the US, were we use commas, and occasionally I forget. OK you meant a call a day. For 8 burglaries in the same time limit? Did these calls prevent another 412? In other words, if there hadn’t been 402 calls, there would have been a burglary every day?
OK, let’s keep out larger Sanford, let’s concentrate on the households,
Above you give us the number of 264 households, or houses, I honestly appreciated that, I was trying to look for the number. If we distribute these 402 calls on all the 264 houses, then George would get 1,5 a year, or the 420 days if you prefer. Although that is not correct since the first burglary report is of ’01/27/11, and it is one of the most “successful” burglaries, considering “loot”.
I surely give Zimmerman the credit as the leader, the commander of the neighborhood block captains to lead by calling 911.
But isn’t the problem that when we need witnesses there are almost none, and these wouldn’t have noticed anything if there wasn’t a big strife and struggle going on? George Zimmerman reports cars that drive around with extremely loud music emanating from the inside. Does that sound like the typical behavior of a burglar to you? Well he thinks so. Actually the first thing that came to my mind was, it could be a potential buyer of a house looking at larger Retreat at Twin Trees premises.
anyway: 11 of 402 calls are not one third of a percent but I estimate about 2,75. Which a leader should be granted I agree; leading towards the resulting job increase, suggested above, for dispatch and police to close to eight time what Sanford has now.
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But this is much more important.
How do you know were GZ parked his car? And what do you mean by “elbow”, is that the turn right in Twin Trees, after the turn left behind the Clubhouse?
How do you know he runs past him, he surely does not tell us. He doesn’t tell us either that he did pass him. He tells us, as far as I remember, “now he is coming to check me out”, which suggests admittedly TM is approaching towards him, but he never tells us anything about TM passing him.
This is the most extraordinary thing I have read so far, even more considering what you blame others to do.
How do you know? Honestly I am startled. Why should TM do what Zimmerman thinks he does? Remember, Zimmerman thinks he is a potential thief, and a potential thief when watched may well try to get away. But why should TM try to get away from the place when he in fact lives there?
What is your favorite site on Trayvon Martin, and what exactly is you interest in the story. Were do you live? I don’t think, I understand what drives you, but I honestly wish I could.
Sling, Manny is taking the facts and fitting his version of the “murderous-skittles-predator attacks the armed captain-do-gooder” into it. Fortunately, though, the video that the police took of Zimmerman showing THEM what he said happened cannot now be re-figured to conform to a reality that never occurred. Zimmerman’s problem will be that when he figured there would be no negative consequences, he just “said anything.” That “just say anything” response will work if the story doesn’t blow up in your face; when it does, a lot of adjustments have to be made. Some can be made (like witnesses being “led” to give testimony that “agrees”) and some, we will see, cannot.
Manny O: “he made a beeline for the last place he saw Zimmerman”
And that place was ….?
And the distance (without going through somebody’s house) from that place to were the shooting happened is……..?
Are you saying that Zimmerman lied when he said was decked immediately and pinned down?
Have you given up on the ‘Zimmerman attacked at the SUV’ story, or are we still to expect your explanation of how a guy sitting on another guy that he had decked and pinned down managed to move him over 200 feet?
Sling T, very clear, very informative, thank you.
If we could see that video of George telling the police how it happened — before he knew evidence was coming in to show that was a lie — we could really see how improbable his story was all along. That, together with the three witness statements (which are NOT confessions and therefore should NOT be withheld) were in front of Angela Corey when she decided whether and how to charge Zimmerman. I believe she realized that Zimmerman would be “hoist by his own petard” if he tried to testify to self-defense, and she therefore charged it as she saw it. The lengths Zimmerman went to in order to not lose Martin, the frustration he expressed that the “assholes always get away” and the hookey story about his near-death experience add up to one thing: MURDER II. And Martin doesn’t have to be a “bunny rabbit” to be scared of Zimmerman in the dark, in the rain, on 2/26/2012. Any guy that age with an SUV who would be following a young fella all over a residential neighborhood in the dark, in the rain, could be presumed to be up to no good. It would be much easier, in fact, for Martin to conclude that Zimmerman was “up to no good” than vice versa, based on common wisdom.
Manny: 420 divided by 402=1.044 calls to 911 on average per day
And of those 420 calls Zimmerman was responsible for less than ONE THIRD OF ONE PERCENT of those calls.
I am sorry, Manny, this is dividing apples by bananas, if you ask me, or days with Zimmerman’s calls.
But you are, correct, I misread what you wrote, you use dot’s in the US, were we use commas, and occasionally I forget. OK you meant a call a day. For 8 burglaries in the same time limit? Did these calls prevent another 412? In other words, if there hadn’t been 402 calls, there would have been a burglary every day?
OK, let’s keep out larger Sanford, let’s concentrate on the households,
Above you give us the number of 264 households, or houses, I honestly appreciated that, I was trying to look for the number. If we distribute these 402 calls on all the 264 houses, then George would get 1,5 a year, or the 420 days if you prefer. Although that is not correct since the first burglary report is of ’01/27/11, and it is one of the most “successful” burglaries, considering “loot”.
I surely give Zimmerman the credit as the leader, the commander of the neighborhood block captains to lead by calling 911.
But isn’t the problem that when we need witnesses there are almost none, and these wouldn’t have noticed anything if there wasn’t a big strife and struggle going on? George Zimmerman reports cars that drive around with extremely loud music emanating from the inside. Does that sound like the typical behavior of a burglar to you? Well he thinks so. Actually the first thing that came to my mind was, it could be a potential buyer of a house looking at larger Retreat at Twin Trees premises.
anyway: 11 of 402 calls are not one third of a percent but I estimate about 2,75. Which a leader should be granted I agree; leading towards the resulting job increase, suggested above, for dispatch and police to close to eight time what Sanford has now.
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But this is much more important.
How do you know were GZ parked his car? And what do you mean by “elbow”, is that the turn right in Twin Trees, after the turn left behind the Clubhouse?
How do you know he runs past him, he surely does not tell us. He doesn’t tell us either that he did pass him. He tells us, as far as I remember, “now he is coming to check me out”, which suggests admittedly TM is approaching towards him, but he never tells us anything about TM passing him.
This is the most extraordinary thing I have read so far, even more considering what you blame others to do.
How do you know? Honestly I am startled. Why should TM do what Zimmerman thinks he does? Remember, Zimmerman thinks he is a potential thief, and a potential thief when watched may well try to get away. But why should TM try to get away from the place when he in fact lives there?
What is your favorite site on Trayvon Martin, and what exactly is you interest in the story. Were do you live? I don’t think, I understand what drives you, but I honestly wish I could.
Sling – Sure, I can see that its probably more likely that Martin ran down the foot path versus Twin Trees Ln and Zimmerman at first starts to follow to keep him in sight, I called out this scenario above (the footpath versus the Twin Trees Ln scenario)
So if Martin is running down the footpath he may have duck behind one of the houses blocking the distant vision of Zimmerman walking on the footpath to keep him in sight…then dispatch says we dont need you to follow him and I think Zimmerman did stop and would have turned around on the footpath to go back to his SUV, but that while this is happening, Martin has cutover to one of the paralell street/paths to the foot path.
I am betting Zimmermans return course would have been up the footpath to the intersecting footpath and then over to Twin trees ln where his SUV was (and that little crosswalk)
Meanwhile Martin was on the Retreat View Circle road doubling back…he takes a left on the intersecting footpath where they rendevous’d in the vicinity of the footpath T. This would place them right about where Martin lay dead and would not require much fight migration but maybe 20 ft max
Yeah, you have convinced me…it must have been the footpath where Martin ran down and Z started to follow before being advised otherwise by dispatch. Makes much more sense
It also explains why Zimmerman would characterize Martin as having circled around his SUV/him at distance. Clubhouse side of Twin Trees Ln to Rear entrance to T in the footpath
No, Manny, I was not talking about a surveillance video. No such surveillance video exists. I was talking about a video that DOES exist, and that is a police video, taken probably the next day (or so, I have forgotten when exactly) showing Zimmerman doing a reenactment of the event for the police. At the time that he did this reenactment for the police, he had not been charged, and they had not clued him in about witness statements that came in LATER, and there had been no furor over the death of Trayvon Martin. So Zimmerman was giving his version of events, and they filmed him doing it, and now with all the stuff they have released, they have withheld THAT very interesting documentary.
Manny O: “The altercation begins and they migrate from there inland towards the foot path a single house widths away where Martin got Z on the ground and then Martin died”
It doesn’t work Manny.
Try Google Maps to give you a view of the location. That will give you a scale to check the actual distances involved.
The location of the shooting is only “a single house widths away” if they go in the front door of a house and out the back door in the course of a fight.
From any point on the Twin Trees roadway to the location of the shooting is a minimum 150 feet – and that’s only if you go through between the first and second block of houses.
If you think the SUV and Zimmerman were at the bend, then you have about 200 feet. As I understand it, the SUV was back a bit towards the clubhouse, which would make it at least 250 feet.
You are suggesting that Martin accosted Zimmerman and that a fight began on Twin Trees. This fight then moved 200 feet or so.
That doesn’t make any sense.
Zimmerman says that Martin punched him and downed him straight off. He’s pinned down then and beaten until he eventually shoots Martin.
Are you suggesting that Martin dragged Zimmerman 200 feet? and apparently while sitting on him?
If Zimmerman made no move to attack Martin and did not follow him, the only way they get to move 200 feet is Martin dragging Zimmerman.
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As for your theory that Martin went down Twin Trees, that doesn’t make any sense either.
Zimmerman is in his SUV on Twin Trees.
He sees Martin pass him.
If he wants to keep an eye on Martin all he has to do is follow in the SUV.
He doesn’t have to get out at all.
Whereas, from Martin’s viewpoint:
This weird guy in a SUV is eyeballing him.
He tells his girfriend that he’s worried by this. He wants to get away from the weird guy.
The weird guy is in a vehicle.
The obvious thing to do is take the footpath from the road and down between the houses, where he can continue his conversation with the girlfriend as he walks home.
If he stays on the street, the weird guy can kerb-crawl him all the way.
He takes the footpath that leads to the t-junction at the top of the path leading down between the houses. That’s his obvious route to get off the street.
Zimmerman had to get out of the SUV to keep him in view. He can’t drive in there.
Martin turns right to go down the path.
Zimmerman, who is behind, loses sight of Martin as he’s now hidden by the first house.
Zimmerman now assumes that he’s heading in the direction of the back gate to get away as these punks always do get away.
What to do?
He could go back to the SUV and drive to the gate, but the SUV is back a bit towards the Clubhouse.(According to any report that I’ve seen).
In any case, if he goes for the SUV, he rally won’t know for sure where Martin is.
However, he’s familiar with the layout of the place. if he heads down Twin Trees on foot and cuts between the houses onto the path, he can catch up with the fugitive.
He’s really keen to stay with him because “they always get away”.
He does. Martin tells his girfriend that the weird guy has appeared again.
“Why are you following me?”
Shano – Have you looked at the photo in conjunction with the addresses in google maps? Of all the different places Martin could have continued his GF conversation he chose to make a beeline back to “the creepy guy”
How does that make sense? He could have walked west on Long Oak Way but no, he made a beeline for the last place he saw Zimmerman
Again, not the actions of an afraid guy just trying to get away from a creepy guy.
it would have been one thing if Martin was found dead down by the rear entrance. I’d pick up a zimmerman pitchfork in a heartbeat and say off with his head, because it would have meant that Zimmerman did pursued Martin down to his house 500-600 feet away from where Zimmerman first reported it…but thats not what happened.
He was talking to his girlfriend! That is the reason! No matter how many times you say it, your scenario is not likely. Martin did everything he could to get away from that “creepy guy”.
But that creepy guy kept creeping up on Trayvon. Why would this unarmed teen attack a creepy guy? It makes no sense at all. He just wanted to talk to his girl friend in private but George would not leave him alone.
I punched a creepy guy like George once too. he would not leave me alone either. I was well within my legal rights.
Zimmerman is the one with 3-4 assaults under his belt and an arrest record because of them.
I have never assaulted anyone,never been arrested for it. Neither had Treyvon.
Z hunted M down? not even close. I think it boils down to Martin being pissed that Zimmerman was staring at him for a prolonged period of time and he wanted to teach that “hater” about not staring and disrespecting him by that hard stare
there is just no good reason, if Martin was scared/fearful, why he would go all the way down to where his house was and instead of going inside (at least for awhile) and then think “hmm…I am so terrified right now, but how about I just go ahead and walk right back (about 600 feet) in the direction of where I saw that scaywee guy staring at me”
The problem is the picture of Martin as a meek, harmless, and scared bunny rabbit doesn’t reconcile with the eye witness account of Martin having no interest in fleeing and instead bludgeoning a pinned man
It also doesnt reconcile with why he didnt just go into the safety of his him
His known/witnessed actions just don’t exude “fear” on any level.
When Martin chose to head back towards zimmerman to instigate a violent confrontation…its too bad he didnt realise he was marching towards his own death. Its also too bad he failed to imagine that his prey may be armed
Ex police chief Joseph McNamara addressed this dynamic in this op-ed:
Simply put, the police culture in our country has changed. An emphasis on “officer safety” and paramilitary training pervades today’s policing, in contrast to the older culture, which held that cops didn’t shoot until they were about to be shot or stabbed. Police in large cities formerly carried revolvers holding six .38-caliber rounds. Nowadays, police carry semi-automatic pistols with 16 high-caliber rounds, shotguns and military assault rifles, weapons once relegated to SWAT teams facing extraordinary circumstances. Concern about such firepower in densely populated areas hitting innocent citizens has given way to an attitude that the police are fighting a war against drugs and crime and must be heavily armed.
Yes, police work is dangerous, and the police see a lot of violence. On the other hand, 51 officers were slain in the line of duty last year, out of some 700,000 to 800,000 American cops. That is far fewer than the police fatalities occurring when I patrolled New York’s highest crime precincts, when the total number of cops in the country was half that of today. Each of these police deaths and numerous other police injuries is a tragedy and we owe support to those who protect us. On the other hand, this isn’t Iraq. The need to give our officers what they require to protect themselves and us has to be balanced against the fact that the fundamental duty of the police is to protect human life and that law officers are only justified in taking a life as a last resort.”
Maybe this is what George was learning. so he shot when he did not need to, thought only of his own skin, was armed to the teeth with a modern weapon.
Too bad he missed the real lesson of police work- the duty to protect human life.
No one would say that Martin was any danger whatsoever to any human life before George profiled and hunted him down.
Sling – I don’t see how Zimmerman could have seen him running towards the rear exit if Martin wasn’t on the Twin Trees Ln, but sure its not known if Martin ran down on Twin Trees or the footpath or if Zimmerman began is shortlived following of Martin on the Twin Trees Lane road or the footpath
Sure Martin told his girfriend he wasnt going to run…probably to seem tough. Zimmerman has no reason to purposely lie about Martin running at this point
I interpret that call is meaning Zimmerman had sight of him on Twin Trees Ln road until Martin turned left towards the rear exit, where he would have lost sight of him while Zimmerman walked towards him on Twin Trees Lane…until Dispatcher had him stop
We don’t know that Zimmerman crossed onto the footpath, but its possible if Martin ran into the footpath that Zimmerman used his 10 seconds to get onto the footpath and see Martin at distance running down the foot path and towards the exit before Zimmerman turned back
If Martin ran down Twin Trees Ln he could would have doubled back on the foot path (and out of sight of Zimmerman still on Twin Trees). Come to the top where that first foot path intersects with the other footpath, come around the house and BOOM, theres Zimmerman by his SUV on Twin Trees
Zimmerman would have been quite shocked to see the same guy emerge from behind him when he just saw him running the other direction away from him…hence the outflanking. The altercation begins and they migrate from there inland towards the foot path a single house widths away where Martin got Z on the ground and then Martin died
If Martin ran down the footpath then he would have doubled back on either Retreat View Circle drive paralell to the foot path or possibly Twin Trees Ln. (also paralell to the foot path) If Martin was running he could have beat Zimmerman back to the SUV if Zimmerman was walking back on the footpath.
The only place I see that Martin would have imposed on Zimmerman and the SUV after Zimmerman lost sight of him is from the side of the building that is in the corner of where the two footpaths intersect with Martin walking onto Twin Trees Ln road (assuming Zimmerman was on Twin Trees Ln)
Martin could reach that from either the footpath or Retreat View Circle drive
Yes, Malisha a darn surveillance video would be helpful
Leander
The crime scene address in discovery was listed as
Between Twin Trees Ln and 2821 Retreat View circle (houses in between)
Leander – Broadening the sample size to the entire city of sanfrod is just going to obscure the results
The issue is The Retreat at Twin Lakes
The time-frame is 420 days ago from the night of the incident (14 months x 30 days)
The total calls that came into 911 from The Retreat at Twin Lakes was 402 calls in the last 420 days. Of those 402 calls a paltry 11 came from Zimmerman
420 divided by 402=1.044 calls to 911 on average per day
And of those 420 calls Zimmerman was responsible for less than ONE THIRD OF ONE PERCENT of those calls.
For a neighborhood watch captain, he showed profound restraint in engaging 911. BUT
what is more telling is the sheer volume of calls that The Retreat at Twin Lakes generated (even without Zimmermans calls).
It was clearly a cesspool of crime for whatever reason. The residents under attack from a criminal element on a regular basis.
leander, I think Malisha is on to something when she says that cut on his ring finger could be from Zimmerman knocking the cell phone out of Trayvons hand.
Great post on the ‘Reasonable Doubt’ thread Malisha. I do get the email but not patient enough to post there
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Tony C, I am sorry about your brothers. I wish you long life.
I probably would want to personally kill anyone who had murdered a brother of mine. I oppose the death penalty nevertheless, and I just wanted to explain to you what (about the Grossman case) I was using as a comparison to the Zimmerman case. Two issues really: (1) That under Florida law, intent could be formed very quickly right before the killing; and (2) That a person who started a wrongful act of aggression, while armed (Grossman in the one case, Zimmerman in the other) could get as frightened as all get-out by the time the situation deteriorated, but could not avail himself of the claim of “self-defense” at all, based on the fact that he initiated the entire violent confrontation.
Not knuckles, either. Palms, fingers, nails.
Malisha, they did only take samples from Trayvon’s nails. I think the left had blood on it, it was ruled out that there were minor parts of Zimmerman’s DNA among it. I wondered a bit about that. But strictly what the paramedic described as “a small laceration to the back of his head” page 182, could be a scratch too. It’s really unfortunate he doesn’t give us the size.
Although after I had translated this item in centimeters for myself, to understand better what we are talking about, I really wondered how this could be worth mentioning. This is the stuff I occasionally notice and wonder how, and when it happened:
There is a 1/4 x 1/8 inch small abrasion on the left fourth finger.
I have no idea about medicine, but what signs would a really hard fist fight leave? There must be a reason people wear boxing cloves. Bruises, can there be bruises on the hands? But anyway that is a tiny abrasion.