The evidence continues to roll in on the Zimmerman case. While the new evidence is not entirely bad for the prosecution, it does contain some evidence that will likely bolster the defense of George Zimmerman in the second degree murder trial over the killing of Trayvon Martin. Regardless of the ultimate impact, the evidence again shows (in my opinion) that prosecutor Angela Corey over-charged the case in Florida.
Some of the new evidence shows that Martin had traces of THC (the active ingredient of marijuana) in his blood stream and urine. Martin was suspended from school due to a marijuana offense (though it involved an empty marijuana baggie). Another benefit to the defense is that Martin father is shown denying that the voice calling out for help was his son — though he later changed that view when he says he was given a better recording. Other witnesses have indicated that it Zimmerman who was calling for help.
Generally, the existence of drugs in the system of a victim or defendant is admissible. The suspension would appear inadmissible under standard evidentiary rules.
There is also evidence that some neighbors described Zimmerman as a bully and a racist. That would help bolster the reported hate crimes prosecution being considered by the Obama Administration, though I still have reservations based on the evidence as it currently stands. Also the police viewed the shooting as “avoidable” — if Zimmerman had left the matter to the police.
I am not sure how much of the neighbor’s view of Zimmerman as a bully or racist could come into evidence. Such accounts, however, can have the benefit of further discouraging Zimmerman from taking the stand as a witness — always a benefit to the prosecution because (while they are told that a defendant has a right not to testify (jurors expect to hear from defendants).
On the whole, however, I would view the evidence as more positive to the defense. First, I have previously said that I was most interested in the distance of the shot and forensics. It now appears that Martin was shot from an intermediate range (no more than 18 inches and as little as an inch away). That would support the claim of Zimmerman that they were in a wrestling fight when the gun was fired. The greater the distance the stronger the case for the prosecution. The defense will likely present expert testimony to try to reduce the range further on the stand. Also, the report does have people at the scene saying that Zimmerman’s nose appeared broken — supporting the later medical report of the family doctor (though such injuries could occur from Martin defending himself).
Moreover, at least two witnesses appear to support Zimmerman in describing the man in the hoodie at straddling the other man and throwing punches. The report state that the man in the “‘hoodie’ [was] on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches ‘MMA (mixed martial arts) style.’ He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass.” One report also says that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight.
While the reports blame Zimmerman for getting out of his vehicle (he says that he was trying to get a house number for the police), that is not itself a crime. Of course, none of this means that Zimmerman was not the aggressor. Given the presumption of innocence and the need to prove the elements beyond a reasonable doubt, this evidence presents an added problem for the prosecution in my view. I have expressed skepticism over the way the case has developed and how it has been charged from the outset. As a criminal defense attorney, I would view this as a strong defense case even on the manslaughter charge, particularly given the poor police work at the scene.
What do you think?
Here is the police report.
Source: ABC and NY Daily News
Manny knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.
No judge can dismiss the case unless Zimmerman gets up there and testifies about alleged self-defense. I’m not holding my breath.
If the judge dismisses the case, then Zimmerman will be immune to any civil case brought against him and I think the HOA will not have much trouble having a lawsuit thrown out as well if Zimmerman is exonerated
You take for granted that Zimmerman caused the whole thing, but if its proven he didn’t and Z was the victim and the case is thrown out, then thats that
I did check where the training’s are held, but none are local to Florida. Someone would have to pay/fund the travel…for a small community its doubtful there is a budget. There also appears to be multiple “national” crime watch organizations. Guess its a bit of a business….and there is no central overseeing entity
Why join Neighborhood Watch? So the captains can get specific training that would have prevented all the tragedy and strife and ruined lives that George Zimmerman caused that evening.
It would have been a fantastic value considering what that HOA may be facing right now.
Hi Betty Kath – Yeah I dont know about the non-emergency number…all the stats I got are on 911 emergency number
Hi bettykath,
Z was actually the Neighborhood Watch captain of The Retreat at Twin Lakes. You can read the 183 page discovery document that has a number of Newsletter’s issued by The Retreat Management that repeatedly identify him as the Watch captain…advise residents to contact him if they see something suspicious, etc
There is no “legal standing” period with any Neighborhood Watch program. Its just a grassroots idea to help residents be aware of crime in their community and coordinate. Sure there is a national watch organization that will take a communities money while getting nothing of value in return, but no community needs to register and why would they…for what?
The only people that have the authority to bequeath the title/role of watch captain is the residents of the community itself…in this case The Retreat at Twin Lakes
That is exactly what happened. Z got his commision to act as watch on behalf of the gated community from:
1) The Management
2) Himself as a resident
3) The other co-residents that participated in the monthly community meetings.
They had a string of recent burglaries and as a community decided to start their own watch program to help cut down on all the crime.
Sorry you dont think the facts add up in my interpretation. What specfiically doesnt add up in your opinion?
Hey All – Don’t think I wouldnt turn on zimmerman as soon as some damning evidence surfaces, seriously I would… but so far I don’t see solid damning evidence for Z all I see are vitriolic hatred of Zimmerman and over the top benefit of the doubts poured on Martin.
I know a lot of us have spent a lot of time noodling this and the RECENT character expressions profiles along with the evidence shown in discovery lead me to my current point of view
In fact, the more data thats released the more it appears that Zimmerman was right all along. We will see if that trend continues with what little data remains to be released. Even the media is starting to see the light on this (as evidenced by the title of the story that started this thread)
Also don’t think that I think that Martin was interested in confronting Zimmerman…until Zimmerman stared hard at him while reporting him to the police. Sure that might have been creepy, but no way that gives Martin the right to go after Zimmerman and pick a fight
Lets not prevent suspicious people from being reported to the police in crime ridden neighborhoods cause the suspected criminals might be creeped out by being reported to the police
Very good point bettykath. I would certainly report George if he hassled my guests.
Manny,
I’ve read all your comments. I like counter arguments because they frequently add to the “truth”. I tried to follow your scenario on the maps. There are facts but your interpretation of them just doesn’t add up. Sorry.
Incidentally,
Z is/was NOT a Neighborhood Watch Captain. Please stop saying that he is/was. He had NO quasi-legal standing whatsoever (except possibly in his own mind).
The call that Z made to the police the night of the altercation was to the direct police line, not 911. How many other calls did Z make to the direct police line during the time frame that he made 11 calls to 911? How many of the additional 390 calls were to report Z prowling the neighborhood? Just asking.
Manny, I used to watch a teen wander about aimlessly talking on the phone to his girlfriend. What does DeeDee say about Martins frame of mind?
That a “creepy guy” is following him, that he finally “lost” him and then, oh crap, there is the creepy guy again. Martin asks him a question.
George gives Trayvon some smart mouth by not answering the question. Really pissy.
George is the hostile one here, no doubt about it. he has already cussed in reference to Trayvon for no reason, labeled him as a criminal with no evidence, and followed him too closely, crowding his space in a menacing way. .
Hey Sling – You said that Martin house was down by the rear entrance. Zimmerman has him running towards the rear entrance
I dont know at exactly what point Z lost sigh of Martin…heck Martin could have been trying to give Z the impression he was headed for the exit but as soon as he got out of Z’s sight he just stopped and started heading back towards Z on a paralell path.
Martin running, he can cover that whole length from Zimmerman to end of the foot path by the rear entrance QUICK. Running by someone fleetfooted..probably 15-20seconds max.
There is no doubt that Martin was running since zimmerman had no reason to lie and we already established that martin was on the foot path so martin was WAY past the point where he was found dead.
Question remains, how did Martin get so far away from zimmerman only to come right back and be found dead so far up the footpath
Why didnt Martin either just go home (if he was truly afraid) or at a minimum head up Long Oak Way AWAY from the direction of Zimmerman or even the foot path paralell to Long Oak way….that would have been the behaviour of someone scared but wanting to keep talking to his girlfriend
Sling – as far as point of confrontation, I dont know for sure, but assuming the footpath was what Martin went down at first towards the exit, then Martin would have had to come up Retreat view circle drive headed North and then cut over to the footpath and/or Twintrees at some point close to the location.
I dont know about how close Zimmerman said he was to his SUV when he got knocked down. Its possible that he was knocked down and got back up and got knocked down
Malisha – Yeah it would be nice to see his reenactment. If its incontrovertibly bogus I will be the first to turn against Zimmerman
as far as Martin being the aggressor…the prosecution is going to have one HELL of a hard time explaining how Martin was free and clear of Zimmerman by at least 500 ft and within mere paces of his own house and then opted to head back towards Zimmerman.
Have you ever seen the nature channel where the gazelle’s are grazing and the cheetah sneaks up to one side of the field? They RUN AWAY and STAY AWAY. They don’t run away and then TURN AROUND and go back!
Prey run away and stay away,
Again, I think Martin was pissed that the “hater” zimmerman was staring at him. How dare he stare at Martin? PLus he is on the phone with his girlfriend and he could have easily thought I need to man up and kick that fools ass I cant have my girfriend thinking im a chump who just runs away
Hey I get that…I was 17 once and learning what it meant to be a man.
Some teen guys think if they back down/walk away they they are pansies and so they psyche themselves up to prove to themselves they are “men” and dont take not shit from anyone. His very recent swing on the bus driver that same month is yet more evidence of this driving mindset in Martin.
Its really not that hard of a case to make…
Manny O: The location of death requires an explanation for how Martin went 600ft to the rear entrance and then somehow returned that same 600ft to his place of death.
I hate to bother you with niggly little points, but…..
What is you basis for saying that he went to the rear entrance?
I think you’ve lost sight of any sort of sense here.
——————
“It makes sense that the Watch guy would be parked at the elbow so he had full view down both sides of the street covering a huge swath of area.”
It would be a good spot to sit and keep a look out if he were on duty, BUT … Zimmerman was not On Watch. He was on his way to the store when he noticed Martin.
On your photograph above, Zimmerman’s house is on the top left. His obvious route to the store is clockwise around that road to the gate, which is the obvious area for him to notice Martin – who would have been heading down into Twin Trees.
What would seem to have happened is that he would have turned from his journey out the gate to the store and gone down Twin Trees after Martin.
He eyeballs Martin as he passes him, then stops a little up the road past the mailboxes and short of the bend.
He makes the call while keeping an eye on Martin.
Martin has noticed him crawling past and then stopping.
Martin has to pass the SUV to continue on his journey.
Zimmerman describes this as Martin coming to check him out.
No doubt Martin is indeed staring at the SUV by now, because this is very creepy behaviour he has seen from the driver.
Well said shano. The propaganda about Trayvon Martin is massive.
Another thing, my S.O. has a son who used to pace back and forth in front of the house and garden when he talked to his girlfriend. this teenage behavior is so familiar to me…….
Manny O: “Zimmerman walking on the footpath to keep him in sight…then dispatch says we dont need you to follow him and I think Zimmerman did stop and would have turned around on the footpath to go back to his SUV,”
No. It still doesn’t work.
Up above, you listen to the recording and you say you have Zimmerman getting out of the SUV and walking for 10 seconds.
Dispatch says “We don’t need you to do that”
So he turns back
As on the recording we have Zimmerman making the very same walking sounds for 10 seconds.
This places him back at the SUV. This is what you said.
—–
You have another problem.
Zimmerman is walking from the SUV for 10 seconds.
How far did he get?
60 feet or so at a good walking pace.
Look at a map with a scale.
It doesn’t even get him half-way to the tee-junction of the paths.
It gets him still on the Twin Trees side of the houses, and unable to see Martin who he last saw heading down the path – presumably to get away via the back gate.
Leander – regarding the other questions, you gotta look at the high rez aerial pic I posted and a google maps of the locations.
There is no way for Martin to be approaching Zimmerman from the clubhouse and to then be running towards the rear exit without him passing Zimmerman. The location of death requires an explanation for how Martin went 600ft to the rear entrance and then somehow returned that same 600ft to his place of death.
Zimmerman told the cops to turn left from the clubhouse onto Twin Trees ln, go past the mailboxes and then they would see his truck. It makes sense that the Watch guy would be parked at the elbow so he had full view down both sides of the street covering a huge swath of area.
As Malisha already remarked, Rashomon. That was a real Rashomon effect, I almost missed it.
Leander – Ah, yes I equally was confused by your use of commas : )
And yes, I was wrong, I meant to write less than 3% not less than a third of 1%…darn decimal point and my old eyes
sorry, I am tired, I thought I had already posted it, instead I seem to have added something above. If I had realized, I would have simply corrected the last passage, or tried to make it more clear.
No idea, how that could happen. But yes, I am startled by the scenario, I was hoping for something like that.
From ‘nine’ at DU.: Thing we ‘learned ‘ from the George Zimmerman case:
“Presumption of innocence is exactly the same thing as presumption of truthfulness. Whatever an accused person says must be believed, no matter how implausible it is or how disconnected it is from known facts.
A teenager wearing a hooded sweatshirt in the rain is a cause for suspicion, but a strange man following you in his car, then on foot, then chasing after you is wholly unremarkable and not at all a justification for self defense.
A high school kid who has drawn graffiti, skipped school, and smoked a joint but has no criminal record is a thug, but a grown man with a history of violent assault against women and police officers is “squeaky clean.”
And I will add to this, many teens going through a divorce have some troubles. I smoked marijuana in high school and knew many kids who did and we all had normal careers, went to college, had good relationships, etc. No matter what you think of this, it does not make Trayvon Martin a “thug”.