The evidence continues to roll in on the Zimmerman case. While the new evidence is not entirely bad for the prosecution, it does contain some evidence that will likely bolster the defense of George Zimmerman in the second degree murder trial over the killing of Trayvon Martin. Regardless of the ultimate impact, the evidence again shows (in my opinion) that prosecutor Angela Corey over-charged the case in Florida.
Some of the new evidence shows that Martin had traces of THC (the active ingredient of marijuana) in his blood stream and urine. Martin was suspended from school due to a marijuana offense (though it involved an empty marijuana baggie). Another benefit to the defense is that Martin father is shown denying that the voice calling out for help was his son — though he later changed that view when he says he was given a better recording. Other witnesses have indicated that it Zimmerman who was calling for help.
Generally, the existence of drugs in the system of a victim or defendant is admissible. The suspension would appear inadmissible under standard evidentiary rules.
There is also evidence that some neighbors described Zimmerman as a bully and a racist. That would help bolster the reported hate crimes prosecution being considered by the Obama Administration, though I still have reservations based on the evidence as it currently stands. Also the police viewed the shooting as “avoidable” — if Zimmerman had left the matter to the police.
I am not sure how much of the neighbor’s view of Zimmerman as a bully or racist could come into evidence. Such accounts, however, can have the benefit of further discouraging Zimmerman from taking the stand as a witness — always a benefit to the prosecution because (while they are told that a defendant has a right not to testify (jurors expect to hear from defendants).
On the whole, however, I would view the evidence as more positive to the defense. First, I have previously said that I was most interested in the distance of the shot and forensics. It now appears that Martin was shot from an intermediate range (no more than 18 inches and as little as an inch away). That would support the claim of Zimmerman that they were in a wrestling fight when the gun was fired. The greater the distance the stronger the case for the prosecution. The defense will likely present expert testimony to try to reduce the range further on the stand. Also, the report does have people at the scene saying that Zimmerman’s nose appeared broken — supporting the later medical report of the family doctor (though such injuries could occur from Martin defending himself).
Moreover, at least two witnesses appear to support Zimmerman in describing the man in the hoodie at straddling the other man and throwing punches. The report state that the man in the “‘hoodie’ [was] on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches ‘MMA (mixed martial arts) style.’ He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass.” One report also says that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight.
While the reports blame Zimmerman for getting out of his vehicle (he says that he was trying to get a house number for the police), that is not itself a crime. Of course, none of this means that Zimmerman was not the aggressor. Given the presumption of innocence and the need to prove the elements beyond a reasonable doubt, this evidence presents an added problem for the prosecution in my view. I have expressed skepticism over the way the case has developed and how it has been charged from the outset. As a criminal defense attorney, I would view this as a strong defense case even on the manslaughter charge, particularly given the poor police work at the scene.
What do you think?
Here is the police report.
Source: ABC and NY Daily News
The difference in this cases was MARTIN WAS SUSPICIOUS. Martin called attention to himself with his 4 suspicious behaviors
Manny, your number one “suspicious behavior” isn’t related to Trayvon Martin beyond the fact that he was a teenager and black and happened to be in the wrong place at Zimmerman’s “right” time. It’s called profiling in the crime community. True, two black guys arrested and two watched committing the burglary in Olivia Bertalan’s house. How can we be sure the rests was black too? Since Frank Taaffe, the righteous tell us so?
I noticed you even suggested somewhere up that Trayvon hit his “loot” somewhere. Somewhere outside the back gate and it was stolen by another black kid by now, I expect. Right? Or did I get the one suggesting this wrong?
It is not really soothing that you, Don Quixote, and legions of righteous American consider themselves altruistic, or good versus evil. Even the Nazis and their followers considered themselves thus. They had block captains too– did you know?–taking care of deviant/suspicious behavior, by the way.
But don’t you worry, Zimmerman will go free. Not that you don’t know this already as a righteous citizen. It surely was helpful to not only know police work but also law, after a 14 week law enforcement training and his studies of criminal law. I am sure his brain worked on high speed before police arrived.
But I guess, I am cynical, today. Your evidence is overwhelming, if Trayvon wasn’t dead by now, he should be immediately executed without further discussion.
Malisha, I did not waste time reading all of your long winded rambling. The first paragraph pretty much says it all. Yes your character and Tony’s character certainly are shining bright .
You have already declared that in the past as well as present time ,you have been labeled as a racist based upon your statements. You have said that you embrace that claim.
I guess it is easier for you to accept the title of a racist rather than second guess your personal stance on issues. (maybe it is more to do with arrogance, who knows,)
You and others here had decided to ignore in particulars related to Martin but would want to embrace in particulars related to Zimmerman.
The main fact is the Zimmerman DID shoot and kill Martin.
That does not negate the need to explore ALL of the in particulars.
The life of an American individual hinges on many factors now.
Extenuating circumstances are important to this case.
Last year when i followed that hooded individual while calling 911 (at a distance) hypothetically, if he had noticed me and then turned around ran back to me and shot me dead, would i be the one who committed a crime by taking notice of him and “hunting him down”?
Ill answer that for you >NO<.
You refuse to focus on Martin…why?
Were you there,,did you know Martin personally?
I had noticed Van Jones on Maher's show make an unfair blanket statement in March,the same show in which Maher called Zimmerman
"a fucking liar"
Jones said-
"If the shoe were on the other foot and you had a black kid who said
'I was just wandering around my neighborhood with a gun,I saw a white guy, I didn't think he belonged here so i shot him!'
There is no way that kid would be walking around ,he would be in jail".
If the shoe were on the other foot???????
So he is stating as a fact that Zimmerman said(thought)–'I saw a black guy, I didn't think he belonged here so i shot him!'
Obviously decided not to accept other possibilities and without ALL of the facts on the table he decided this -that 'Zimmerman hunted down Martin'.
You and others are also going with that BIASED view.
Were you on the OJ Simpson Jury panel?
Seems like it.
@Bosco: Tony , you are of a self-acclaimed high minded character.
I have never claimed to be of high minded character, you must be reading some other thread in an alternate universe.
I inform people I am a research scientist for the same reason I inform them I am an atheist and the same reason I inform them I am not a lawyer: So they know in general where my training is, where my biases are, and where my opinions are those of a layman.
Do not get hung up on jobs. The first clock I ever punched was as a dishwasher in a large restaurant. I’ve cleaned toilets to pay the rent, maybe that will make you feel better. I am not arguing from a position of authority or superiority, but a position of what makes sense to me and why.
I am fair-minded, I am not biased against Zimmerman or for Martin because of race or age. I am fully aware that seventeen year olds of any race can be ruthless killers.
I am biased based on their actions, and to me their actions show Zimmerman wanted a confrontation and Martin tried to avoid one. Because of that, the details of the fight fade into irrelevancy: MMA style, on-top, with intent or without it, first punch or not, are all irrelevant.
Because Zimmerman’s actions, whether aggressive pursuit or just plain dimwitted ignorance of the effects of his following on Martin, resulted in Martin’s death by his hand and I consider that manslaughter, not self-defense.
My bias is toward simple logic and fairness: You do not get to provoke a fight, to frighten somebody into fighting you, and then kill them in “self-defense.” That makes zero sense to me. Aggressive bullies do not get to walk away scot free and leave a trail of dead bodies in their wake because they managed to provoke people into a fight response and then pull a concealed weapon on them. (and that is being generous; if Zimmerman’s weapon was NOT concealed, anything Martin does when confronted by Zimmerman is in fear for his life).
I do not care much about the details of the fight because Zimmerman’s bullying was already evident when he was close enough to physically attack Martin and demanded, “What are you doing here?”
By approaching that close, after following Martin, Zimmerman was Assaulting Martin and in my view lost all rights to claim self-defense no matter WHAT happens next; his actions produced the fight, he pulled the trigger, he is guilty of at least manslaughter.
So if you want to talk, talk about the logic of the case. If you just want to call me names, eh, we can do that for awhile.
Leander, here is the url to go to so you can listen to the audio clip of the interview with the coworker.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/05/18/486523/audio-witness-says-george-zimmerman-repeatedly-bullied-him-at-work-targeted-him-with-racist-jokes/
I think you just click on the triangle and they play the whole interview. It is very revealing, and the ME guy being interviewed is very well-spoken and clear. Nothing really surprising in there, of course. All of it could be presumed from extrapolating from the things George Zimmerman has been saying since that night.
Manny O, here’s my answer: no.
If you think you can provide plenty of reasons for you to think as you do, and even if you think you can provide plenty of reasons for Zimmerman to think as you do or as he does or whatever, fine.
Your four “reasons” had nothing to do with the crime of murder.
There’s someone on this thread who is posting brilliantly from the Federal Republic of Germany. I have all kinds of conditioned and preconceived notions and prejudices about Germans. Yet none of these ideas, or even firmly held beliefs, that I have, relate in any way to Leander. They are there, I admit them, I deal with them, and I recognize them, but I do not imagine they guide my actions when I relate to another human being in the world with me. Leander has enriched my life and contributed to my understanding of an important current event.
Who knows? If Zimmerman had not killed Trayvon Martin, the same thing might have happened to either Zimmerman or someone else in Twin Oaks by their having met and gotten to know the young man as he reached his 18th birthday. We shouldn’t kill each other, for this very reason.
Bosco, on this thread, as in other ways and other situations, we all judge each others’ characters and we all display our own. I, for instance, do not know Tony C but I have learned a lot about his character from reading his comments. I even learned about a couple of tragedies he had in his own family. I wouldn’t know him if I saw him walking down the path as I drove to the store on a rainy evening in February, but I do know him a little, and inevitably I do judge him a little. That would not give me a right to kill him, of course. It would not provide a defense for me if I DID kill him, either.
Throughout your comments you show that you are very defensive of Zimmerman’s character, not just his actions. But he will not be on trial for his character, and NEITHER IS TRAYVON MARTIN. Regardless of your — or anybody’s — opinion about the relative good character (or relative bad character) of Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman, and regardless of how much Zimmerman may have considered his own life more important than the life of the man he called an “asshole,” the law did not give him the right to kill Martin, and he DID KILL MARTIN.
Now, to most people who post here, the idea that Zimmerman HAD TO KILL MARTIN is absurd. You may cling to that belief. But how that gives you any standing to derogate the character of Tony C or of anybody else who does not see it your way is a mystery to me, and I think would be a mystery to any logical, rational person.
If there were a question on a psychological test that said:
“I often think people who disagree with my version of an event I did not personally witness have low-minded characters,”
your honest answer would probably have to be, “VERY TRUE.”
And that’s a lot more important than Duke, Brawley, OJ, Michael Jackson or any of the other media circuses you have tried to reference in your attempts to show some of us that we’re just plain wrong-thinkers.
Tony ,this statement applies to you too, –
“Ill spend time reading the words of people who are demonstrative in FAIR MINDEDNESS … You are obviously not one of those.”
even though ,Tony , you are of a self-acclaimed high minded character.
Manny O,
“Zimmerman could have been killed. Onc more head slam o the pavement could have been all it took.”
Martin *was* killed. It didn’t take one more shot to do it.
You give me the impression that you consider Zimmerman’s life to be more important than Martin’s.
“Dont take lightly head injuries. They are the most dangerous kind of injury there is. Head injuries cause disoreintation, confusion, memory loss, loss of motor skill and death in many cases”
Don’t take death lightly. Martin may have experienced “disoreintation, confusion, memory loss, loss of motor skill” for a seconds, but he undeniably died.
“They werent “shoving” each other around and sumo slapping each other
The witness described Martin as pummeling him MMA style
Have you seen MMA/UFC? It is not only serious shit its LETHAL”
It seems that MMA-syle is not actually ‘serious shit’ or lethal, but just dance moves for posing pussies.
Well, either that is the case or the witness description of the manner of fighting was fanciful.
MMA involves straddling the opposition and slapping their head? It has specific moves for that? It does sound dangerous.
However, if the result of all that fighting was Zimmerman not needing any medical attention other than a wipe, either MMA is indeed for pussies or Martin was not skilled at it.
There are martial arts in which the very first blow can kill or at least cause very serious injuries.
So the optimistic, oh boys will be boys, Zimmerman would have been fine is total rubbish. Zimmerman could EASILY have been dead or a vegetable
Zimmerman could perhaps have been killed immediately, with seconds, within a minute or permanently disabled.
Martin was permanent dead.
You give me the impression that you consider Zimmerman’s safety and life to be more important than Martin’s life.
Again, the only reason that fight could take place was that (1) Zimmerman went down a dark path looking for Martin and (2) when they met, Zimmerman did not explain what he was doing, even when challenged. This is by both his own account and by the girlfriend’s account.
How are you getting on with the question ““When did he lose his right to inquire as to the intent of any other human?””
I gave my answer to that.
What’s yours?
Do you not think that, whatever about following in the dark, that Zimmerman would have been well advised to state his business?.
You know, like real cops do – for a good reason.
bettykath: “Sling, Do you think Z would have left his SUV is he wasn’t carrying?”
I don’t know.
It doesn’t really matter.
Neither does it matter exactly why he decided Martin was a punk.
All that matters is that he made two major stupid blunders (as I’ve noted above) that resulted in a death.
Malisha
Please tell me which of these 4 reasons “do not hold water” (as you said) for Zimmerman to find Martin suspicious and report him to 911?
Here is what I posted previously
How come it was ok for Zimmerman to suspect Martin of criminal activity?
The reasons
1) Because other “young black males” had committed burglaries in recent time and Martin was a young black male that fit the description
2) Martin was looking at all the houses according to the 911 calls
3) He was “acting like he was on drugs” (teetering in step I assume, but he may have been c-walking while holding his nuts and talking to his girlfriend. Yes I know it sounds gross but teen boys its all the rage and it would TOTALLY look like he is on drugs and “have his hand in his waist band”
4) He was walking all around, not like someone simply trying to get somewhere
None of that is “profiling”. Just because young black males had been committing burglaries and Martin was a young black male in the SAME area…thats not profiling. Its just matching facts. Those 4 things are DOWNRIGHT suspicious when coupled with the other three witnessed behaviors.
To the majority of residents at The Retreat, Martins behavior would have been just as suspicious as it was to Zimmerman. The only difference was Zimmerman was the one watching that night.
You really think Martin was the first blak person to EVERY walk through the community that Zimmerman was just waiting to spy?
With an almost 2 year Watch history he had surely seen many many black people walking through the community and it was uneventful
The difference in this cases was MARTIN WAS SUSPICIOUS. Martin called attention to himself with his 4 suspicious behaviors
This ain’t rocket science…
Stop trying to turn the tables and say Zimmerman was the one acting suspicious. How many times had someone reported Zimmerman to 911 (remember there were a whopping 402 calls so plenty of opportunity) for.suspicious behavior
Why didnt Martin call 911 if he thought Zimerman was suspicious and he wass in danger? How about that?
How often does the racist meth head murderer call 911 BEFORE the murder? 0%
How often does the victim call 911 because they are afraid. Everytime
I think if you really wanted to, you could see the light here. The circumstantial data is truly compelling in Zimmermans favor
Sling
You wrote:
If Zimmerman did not have a gun,
1) The cops, already on their way, would have arrived moments later and stopped things.
2) Zimmerman might or might not have been unconscious.
3) Martin would not be dead
4) Each would tell their story and a court might decide a balance of culpability.
Simple.
Perhaps in a Road Runner cartoon! Where Wiley Coyote can fall off a thousand foot cliff and he is fine. Or he gets blown up with ballistic missile and he is good as new in the next scene
Zimmerman could have been killed. Onc more head slam o the pavement could have been all it took.
Dont take lightly head injuries. They are the most dangerous kind of injury there is. Head injuries cause disoreintation, confusion, memory loss, loss of motor skill and death in many cases
They werent “shoving” each other around and sumo slapping eachother
The witness described Martin as pummeling him MMA style
Have you seen MMA/UFC? It is not only serious shit its LETHAL
So the optimistic, oh boys will be boys, Zimmerman would have been fine is total rubbish. Zimmerman could EASILY have been dead or a vegetable
Here’s Jennifer Eberhardt’s article.
But you might have to be a member to get a print-out or to read the whole thing; the abstract seems to be available.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/8132051_Seeing_black_race_crime_and_visual_processing
Her work is very interesting; I don’t know if any of the news sources have asked her for an interview on this case, though; I wish they would.
Shano, oh, one more thing. I’m long-winded and you’re probably apeshit.
Shano, I think it was just that we (you, Sling T and I) all wanted to lynch George Zimmerman. We profiled him and we had a racist agenda and we were biased so we were excusing Trayvon Martin’s vicious unprovoked attack against him and wanted to punish him for simply trying to protect himself from a murderous megalomanaical thug. Or something.
And I think we also parked at an expired meter. 39″ and 150 pounds tall. Which could outrun a short Hispanic guy who was worried about his neighborhood, what with all the crime and all. Or something.
Well, whatever it is, I’m in good company.
Bosco and Manny: since I live in one of the white trash meth head capitals of the world, which person do you think the police would rather have to confront and arrest?
A meth head or a pot head?
Which one? Tell the truth or I am going to look up Darren who is a real cop.
Malisha, we are a bunch of racists? idiots? I cant remember all our qualities according to Manny.
Shano, equivalency is great. I was flattered that Manny (or Bosco, can’t remember) grouped me with you and Sling. [Smiley Face]
“So what would the scenario be if Zimmerman did not have a gun and Martin had beat him unconscious? Should Martin not have to go to jail merely because Zimmerman got out of his car and stared at Martin?”
The scenario would be, if Zimmerman did not have a gun, that Martin would still be alive. Which of them would have been charged with a crime? Who knows? Who cares? If my grandmother had wheels, she’d be a bus.
Bosco: Did you like my film ‘White Trash Meth Head Walking’? It is excellent except for the absence of a shaved head.
Malisha, thank you for putting into words what I try to show in equivalency.
@Bosco: Your insecurity is showing, dude. You cannot answer to any of my posts, so you choose to attack me instead. My sympathies on your logical disability.
Malisha,
I’m sure you have people here that read your long-winded racist diatribe because i most certainly wont waste my time to read it all.
Ill spend time reading the words of people who are demonstrative in
FAIR MINDEDNESS and fair play. You are not one of those. You have openly stated that you are a RACIST so your view is slanted to the nth degree.