The evidence continues to roll in on the Zimmerman case. While the new evidence is not entirely bad for the prosecution, it does contain some evidence that will likely bolster the defense of George Zimmerman in the second degree murder trial over the killing of Trayvon Martin. Regardless of the ultimate impact, the evidence again shows (in my opinion) that prosecutor Angela Corey over-charged the case in Florida.
Some of the new evidence shows that Martin had traces of THC (the active ingredient of marijuana) in his blood stream and urine. Martin was suspended from school due to a marijuana offense (though it involved an empty marijuana baggie). Another benefit to the defense is that Martin father is shown denying that the voice calling out for help was his son — though he later changed that view when he says he was given a better recording. Other witnesses have indicated that it Zimmerman who was calling for help.
Generally, the existence of drugs in the system of a victim or defendant is admissible. The suspension would appear inadmissible under standard evidentiary rules.
There is also evidence that some neighbors described Zimmerman as a bully and a racist. That would help bolster the reported hate crimes prosecution being considered by the Obama Administration, though I still have reservations based on the evidence as it currently stands. Also the police viewed the shooting as “avoidable” — if Zimmerman had left the matter to the police.
I am not sure how much of the neighbor’s view of Zimmerman as a bully or racist could come into evidence. Such accounts, however, can have the benefit of further discouraging Zimmerman from taking the stand as a witness — always a benefit to the prosecution because (while they are told that a defendant has a right not to testify (jurors expect to hear from defendants).
On the whole, however, I would view the evidence as more positive to the defense. First, I have previously said that I was most interested in the distance of the shot and forensics. It now appears that Martin was shot from an intermediate range (no more than 18 inches and as little as an inch away). That would support the claim of Zimmerman that they were in a wrestling fight when the gun was fired. The greater the distance the stronger the case for the prosecution. The defense will likely present expert testimony to try to reduce the range further on the stand. Also, the report does have people at the scene saying that Zimmerman’s nose appeared broken — supporting the later medical report of the family doctor (though such injuries could occur from Martin defending himself).
Moreover, at least two witnesses appear to support Zimmerman in describing the man in the hoodie at straddling the other man and throwing punches. The report state that the man in the “‘hoodie’ [was] on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches ‘MMA (mixed martial arts) style.’ He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass.” One report also says that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight.
While the reports blame Zimmerman for getting out of his vehicle (he says that he was trying to get a house number for the police), that is not itself a crime. Of course, none of this means that Zimmerman was not the aggressor. Given the presumption of innocence and the need to prove the elements beyond a reasonable doubt, this evidence presents an added problem for the prosecution in my view. I have expressed skepticism over the way the case has developed and how it has been charged from the outset. As a criminal defense attorney, I would view this as a strong defense case even on the manslaughter charge, particularly given the poor police work at the scene.
What do you think?
Here is the police report.
Source: ABC and NY Daily News
@Manny-great response for a re-post!
If only Martin had called the police at ANY point that night to report the allegedly “creepy” Zimmerman…then Martin would not be dead
If only Martin had not beaten the shit out of Zimmerman…then Martin would not be dead
If only Martin had identified himself as a resident and his house number…then Martin would not be dead
If only Martin had chosen to run home after knocking Zimmerman to the ground, instead of pinning him on the ground and continuing to beat the shit out of him…then Martin would not be dead
If only Martin’s parents had taught him it is ALWAYS better to avoid resorting to violence….then Martin would not be dead
If only Martin had not been a drug dealer/user and gotten suspended from his school to where he got shipped to his Dad’s fiancee’s house at The Retreat…then Martin would not be dead
“Hey I know many of you are recoiling and scowling at these, but realize, many on the other side feel the SAME WAY when the same drivel is stated about Zimmerman woulda/should/coulda done or not done not one person will respect ”
Manny,,you do know that not one person who hangs out in this playground of racist conjectures will respect or consider this opinion of yours. Not one.
No one would want to be fair-minded enough to consider other possibilities that would conflict with their narrowed point of view here.
It has been reported that Zimmerman and his wife had helped to tutor minority youths before this incident.
“Now we find out that Zimmerman went out of his way to defend the rights of a black homeless man that was attacked by the police back in 2010. The cop was the police lieutenant’s son and wasn’t put up on charges until Zimmerman pushed the issue in the community.
George Zimmerman printed and distributed copies of fliers on bright fluorescent-colored paper demanding that the community “hold accountable” officers responsible for any misconduct.
The DC has obtained a copy of one of those fliers.”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87840105/Zimmerman-Letter-to-Sanford-Churches
(Oh My ,Zimmerman MIGHT NOT be a racist!!!)
No one here will give this any credence nor would research it to see if it has validity. Why?
Because then it might poke holes into their claims that Zimmerman ‘hunted down’ and murdered Martin because he was a black kid that ‘didn’t belong’ in that neighborhood.
Shano’s ignorant claim-
“if you are being attacked by a ‘criminal’ most criminals will run away when you tell them the cops are coming. In fact this is a very good way get rid of criminals before you have to shoot them..”
The resident who is a key witness to this shooting stated that–
“..the guy on the bottom who i believe had a red sweater on was yelling to me ‘HELP HELP’ I told him (Martin) to STOP and that I was CALLING 911..”
If Shano were correct then Martin should have got up very quickly after hearing that witness’ threat and started to run away instead of CONTINUING to beat Zimmerman. (If that is what happened)
@leander: My core problem besides more ethical ones is indeed that you can’t reverse it in the case of misjudgments.
I agree, and I think a higher standard would be needed to impose it. As it stands, for example, several people (predominately black) have been put to death that are later exonerated by DNA evidence, or at least DNA evidence casts serious doubt on their guilt.
Some convictions for murder involve a lot of circumstantial evidence. I know of cases in which no weapon was found, but there are records of the defendant purchasing the exact description of the weapon a few days before, and he cannot produce it. (and there is no proof the weapon he bought was the murder weapon).
Cases where the defendant was placed at the scene (like his ex-wife’s apartment door fiddling with his keys, when there was a protective order against him) by eyewitness testimony; but an HOUR before the crime was committed.
It is up to the jury to determine what a “reasonable doubt” is, and for whatever reason, they were confident those men were guilty.
Some convictions for murder are far more straightforward; we have videotape, from security cameras, pedestrians, etc. The standard is “beyond a reasonable doubt,” which means the jury can think of no reason to doubt the guilt of the defendant, but I think there is a difference between not having any doubt and being completely certain.
I am not certain everybody on death row is guilty, in fact I am pretty damn convinced some are probably innocent. But in my mind some convictions are FAR more certain than others, the evidence is incontrovertible.
There is a lesser standard of guilt than “beyond a reasonable doubt” called “clear and convincing evidence”, I would call this higher standard something like “Compelling and overwhelming evidence of guilt.”
A possibly additional route to such certainty is to have one jury’s conclusion of “compelling and overwhelming evidence” be certified by a SECOND jury, with a new judge. If the evidence really is compelling and overwhelming, then it should not be a problem for the state to prove it twice in a row. I would say this is not double-jeopardy; the defendant is already convicted and sentenced to death, the second jury is there for HIS benefit, and after re-hearing all the evidence, can only reduce his sentence to life in prison without parole, or concur with the first jury. If the defense wants to change their tactic (or the defendant wants new representation or a new public defender) that is fine with me too.
Keeping murderers alive lets them write letters, books, and give interviews, consult on movies about their exploits, and they can even inspire copycat murderers.
They can terrorize other prisoners serving time for non-violent crimes, maim them or kill them, without real punishment: They are already serving life in prison, and if there is no death penalty the only further punishment is solitary confinement, which has been equated to torture. I consider that possibility cruel and unusual punishment for a non-violent offfender.
They can infect other felons serving time, that will get out, by passing on their mistakes, and educating them, so when they get out they can murder with a higher probability of getting away with it: About 2/3 of murders result in an arrest, but less than 50% of murders result in a conviction. That is at least partly due to “Crime University,” the education received by prisoners serving short sentences from career criminals putting their notes together.
I really do not understand the motivation to keep known murderers alive. It sounds like dangerously sentimental or mystical thinking to me. The ones I am talking about are NEVER going to be free; and can only do us more damage, either directly or indirectly. Once the chance of them being innocent is LESS than the chance of them doing more harm, by deed or by word, they should be humanely put to death.
Manny O, here’s a very bad form of “protesteth too much” on your part:
“If only Martin had not beaten the shit out of Zimmerman…then Martin would not be dead”
You have adopted and promulgated this idea by having assumed, a priori, that Zimmerman killed in self-defense. It is quite an assumption!
That is an affirmative defense, and if O’Mara feels like it will fly, he might try it. He might not. But you have ADOPTED it. How come?
Here’s my educated guess: You like that theory.
Well, Zimmerman does too. We shall see whether it sells.
Leander, I always appreciate your comments. Don’t feel like I’m demanding a response if I post with your name — free country, free thread!
Whenever you come on-line, I read as carefully and thoughtfully as possible. If I get you wrong, set me right.
[Smiley Face]
Ooops, another interesting mistake: the wetting, of course I meant vetting.
Does his wife
hashave her own carbe so kind and correct the rest while reading.
Manny, nothing in the larger scenario suggest one outrunning the other, except for a very short time interval shortly before the struggle. It feels you simply insist, since in that scenario Martin would have had an advantage in doing so. What exactly happened before?
What you aren’t worried about is that Martin generally had no motive to run. A real burglar might have, that’s why you never quite leave it out of your scenarios that he actually was one. If nothing was found on him, couldn’t he have hidden it somewhere, if it wasn’t found couldn’t have somebody picked it up? I accept that as speculative thinking but we do not have evidence for it. With a little more time on hand, I’ll look at the peculiar jewelery scenario. …
But considering the above. Why should Martin go in the opposite direction, why should he go to Long Oak Rd? You only want him to get out of sight of Zimmerman, correct? But can you tell us, why he should do that?
Zimmerman assumed “the suspect” would leave via the back entrance, something you picked up eagerly by letting Martin leave via the back gate to return again into the RTL premises from somewhere else, hide his loot somewhere and then attack Zimmerman. Correct? Again, why should he, if he in fact isn’t a burglar from somewhere outside? Besides given the time stamp on the 711 shop, would he have had the time to commit a burglary on his way, given Z seems to have discovered him somewhere around the front entrance on his way home.
Personally, I think, and no I do not have time to look more closely at the latest debate, that Zimmerman after finishing his call with the dispatcher walked, run or drove into the direction of the back entrance, since he assumed that was were Martin intended to go, and than suddenly discovered Martin again. Remember, strictly we do not know were he parked his car. Does his wife has her own car as a student, or did she in fact use it when she brought Zimmerman new clothes the same night?
On 03/08/11 Z. reports a black male at the back entrance (p.38), on 08/06/11 Z. reports two black teens at back entrance (p.39). Both these reports are entered with 1111 Retreat View Circle. Thus back entrance and front entrance surface in two of his four calls concerning black males. On 10/01/11
he reports another two black males sitting in a car at the front gate at 00:53:35
Thus back and front gate are at the center of his observational interests. Two of four calls concerning black males with both back and front gate entered, one with only the front gate.
We surely have a problem, since we cannot listen to all his calls, and in the case of the white Chevy, car at front gate, don’t know about the resulting police work. The personal information is blanked out, would it be according to Florida’s sunshine law if they had been in fact arrested at the time the documents were released?
Sanford police confirms that this is not true:
Considering the date, at least theoretically, it could be possible that the wetting of the two in the Chevy led to an arrest for something not committed inside the community. But although the sergeant that answered me after a while, may be slightly tired to waste all his time on public inquiries? Maybe only Leland Management got matters wrong, but how and why? Whose information was misunderstood? Strictly that suggests to me Zimmerman, who else would give them this information?
But strictly the larger factual basis somehow supports Tony C’s scenario, that Zimmerman’s intend was to cause this guy real troubles, in the hope once they checked him police would find something surely.
Manny, I respect you, but what factual evidence do you have for Martin dealing drugs? What do you think the percentage of dealers versus users is, to return to statistics, how likely is it?
Adderall and Temazepan seem to be regularly prescribed in combination for daytime and sleep respectively. One for getting “high” the other to “calm down”, relax, sleep. The Adderall experience doesn’t look that different to the Sativa marijuana experience to me. Do you have the slightest idea about the extend of misuse of legal drugs? Painkillers swallowed regularly for no other reasons than for similar “lightening up” effects?
******************************************************************************
Malisha, I didn’t want to suggest that Trayvon was on a suicide mission, quite the opposite, but can’t deny that I am struggling with Tony C’s support of the death penalty. My core problem besides more ethical ones is indeed that you can’t reverse it in the case of misjudgments. I noticed your comment yesterday, but decided I cannot escape my work endlessly.
and now I have to shut up, I will have to read a lot on the weekend, admittedly I only glimpsed at comments today.
Manny, George is an excellent liar.
Lets see how well his story to the police is supported by the real evidence.
1. Martin was talking to his girlfirend on the phone when George attacked him.
2. George was not hurt in this fight. I see no real injuries, just some scratches , no deep cuts, no lacerations, no big bruises, no broken bones that have been verified by x-ray. I have been hurt worse falling off a horse and I did not shoot the horse afterward.
3.Why should a teen give out his house number to any stranger who refuses to identify himself? How could Martin know George even lived in this complex? This is the problem with George not identifying himself!
4. When when George fell, (did he trip after knocking the phone out of Martins hand?) Martin saw the gun and decided he might get shot if he ran.
5. Martin had very good parents, they taught him well, he was a good kid- a smart kid with his whole life ahed of him until a speed addict decided to profile him.
6. A plastic baggie with no marijuana in it is what caused the school suspension. No other charges have been brought, he has never been in trouble with the law or been arrested or in juvenile hall. Trayvon is an honor student. That takes some brains and ambition and obedience to society. He was a popular kid.
7. George murdered this teen. MURDER.
Manny: “The whole Zimmerman was a smartass/got cutsy simply has no merrit. Its just more utterly baseless bias like translating a “no” into an “Eff you”
Tell that to the police who were highly critical of Georges dialogue.
The Neighborhood Watch rules are pretty well known on this thread. they are Do not confront, only watch, do not go out armed with a gun. George broke all the rules, he either never bothered to study them or he had no ambition to be good in this position.
The dispatcher also told him not to follow, George chose to ignore this very good advice. He is a fool.
Martin did not need to call the police until he saw George the 2nd time. He was still talking to his girlfriend until George knocked the phone out of his hand or pushed Trayvon to cause him to drop the phone.
“Get off, get off” is what DeeDee heard Trayvon say before the phone went dead. That sounds like George was assaulting Trayvon and caused him to drop the phone.
By the time Martin knew he needed the police he didn’t have his phone at all……………
Too bad George did not tell him the police were on the way isn’t it?
People keep saying if only Zimmerman had done X or if only Zimmerman would not have done Y, then Martin would not be dead today
Well here are the Martin versions of those same “if only’s” so we have more balance on this issue
If only Martin had called the police at ANY point that night to report the allegedly “creepy” Zimmerman…then Martin would not be dead
If only Martin had not beaten the shit out of Zimmerman…then Martin would not be dead
If only Martin had identified himself as a resident and his house number…then Martin would not be dead
If only Martin had chosen to run home after knocking Zimmerman to the ground, instead of pinning him on the ground and continuing to beat the shit out of him…then Martin would not be dead
If only Martin’s parents had taught him it is ALWAYS better to avoid resorting to violence….then Martin would not be dead
If only Martin had not been a drug dealer/user and gotten suspended from his school to where he got shipped to his Dad’s fiancee’s house at The Retreat…then Martin would not be dead
Hey I know many of you are recoiling and scowling at these, but realize, many on the other side feel the SAME WAY when the same drivel is stated about Zimmerman woulda/should/coulda done or not done
Shano – Why did Zimmerman only beg/plead for help 14-20 times…instead of saying hey I called the cops? Maybe he was distracted by the fact he was getting the shit beat out of him and could only manage some primal desperate yelping. Hindsight is 20/20 aint it?
The whole Zimmerman was a smartass/got cutsy simply has no merrit. Its just more utterly baseless bias like translating a “no” into an “Eff you”.
Zimmerman didn’t lie…once again you are going over the top by overspeaking in saying “directly conflicted” what he said on the 911 call….
No actually it doesn’t directly conflict.
18 and 19 years old is late teens and is considered a legal adult. Zimmerman did not know he was a minor at 17…thats was what he was trying to say
Its lame to spell this out and it probably won’t matter to you anyway, but there are only 7 ages that are “teen years” 2 in the early, 3 in the middle, and 2 in the late. The 2 in the late are legal adults
13-14 is early teens
15-17 is mid teens
18-19 is late teens
What NW “rules”?, Which of the many different national NW rules should now be binding? There are no binding “rules” anymore than there are binding rules on how you should raise your kids or how you should practice personal hygiene. There are guidelines and opinions, but no laws and no rules.
Where is the dispute on Zimmerman calling for help when we have an eyewitness saying he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman pinned while Zimmerman called for help?
He saw Martin punching him MMA style. It doesn’t make sense that Martin would be yelling for help while viciously beating Zimmerman. Martin wasn’t even responsive to people yelling at him to stop beating that guy…that is the only thing that smacks of psychopathy and really scary.
Martin literally lost touch with the reality around him while in the throes of his violent onslaught to the point he couldn’t even hear third parties!
But it sure makes sense for the guy getting the shit beat out of him to be yelling for help. Don’t need to write a lot of words or do mental backflips to figure that one out.
So tell me Shano…why didn’t Martin call the police at any point?
Manny, as of right now the person calling for help is in dispute. It is not certain that it was George. It could very well have been Trayvon Martin calling for help.
We have to wait for this one to be settled.
Zimmerman has a couple of head bumps. I am still waiting for the photo of George with two black eyes.
So tell me Manny, if Zimmerman had time to shout for help 14 to 20 times, why didn’t he say, “I called the cops” or “the cops are on the way” or “get off I called 911”.?
Because if you are being attacked by a ‘criminal’ most criminals will run away when you tell them the cops are coming. In fact this is a very good way get rid of criminals before you have to shoot them..
Martin was the one using the SYG law. He was defending himself against a much older stalker who not only refuses to identify himself, but is a smart ass about it too. And he turned out to be armed with a deadly weapon.
All the responsibility lies with Zimmerman. He is the adult in this situation.
Zimmerman lied to Trayvon Martins parents when he said he did not know Martin was a kid. What nerve. It is psychopathy.
This directly conflicted with his statement to the dispatcher that night that Martin was a male in his late teens. Zimmerman is a practiced liar, a very good liar as the Middle Eastern co worker describes in his taped statement.
He has had not only gun training, but police training and he claims to be a neighborhood watch captain. If he can claim to be a NW captain, he must know the rules of NW- otherwise he is a phoney, a poseur…. Someone playing at being a neighborhood watch captain who did not even bother to investigate the responsibilities of this title.
To say nothing of his prescription drugs. Did he snort Adderal that night? Was it one line or two?
The degree of the Martin attack is relevant in my opinion. If he had only shoved zimmerman or poked him hard Z would not have been able to use justifiable force in defense
Florida chapter 776
However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or GREAT BODILY HARM to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
No way did Martin think he was in GREAT BODILY HARM if you wont grant that Zimmerman thought he was in GREAT BODILY HARM
Sure, in hindsight 20/20 you minimize Zimmerman’s extensive injuries but Zimmerman didn’t have that hindsight. He couldn’t stop time and then peruse his situation out of his body to guage the degree with which he was acquiring damage at the hands of Martin
He had no idea when he was going to lose consciousness…
Any jury is going to hear the witness statement about Martin having this guy pinned doing his MMA thing and they are going to easily see that Zimmerman was using this florida statute appropriately and that Z had no doubt he was at great risk for GREAT BODILY HARM
He didn’t have to call for help…he could have just shot without trying to call for help first
It just shows how reluctant he was to shoot this guy…not the frothing at the mouth redneck kkk member that so many make Z out to be.
Sling
Regarding #5
I said
5) Martin is witnessed viciously beating Zimmerman in a pinned position and Zimmerman shoots him after crying for help 14-20 times for SOMEONE ANYONE to intervene so he would not have to shoot Martin.
You said:
5) Your description is not informed by witness statements available. It is also ‘creative’.
Actually it is supported by the witness statements. No creativity AT ALL
There are two reports of the person calling for help 14 or 20 times, so 14-20 times seems fair
Page 38 and 86 of the discovery 183 page PDF
But I wont lambast you : )
I’ll say it again just because I like to say it: No amount of beating delivered from Martin to Zimmerman that night justified the killing. I don’t believe there was very MUCH beating, and if there had been, clearly the police would have insisted on a trip to the ER for their suspect (to cover their behinds in case he later accused them of brutality, at the very least) if there were serious damage of any sort, but assuming arguendo that Martin gave Zimmerman the thumping of his life, that was his absolute right to defend himself when stepped into by a thug. No, make that “stepped into by an armed thug.”
Malisha – regarding your previous response to the 4 suspcious activities
Regarding your comment about profiling
STARTQUOTE
Sorry, Manny, but that is just wrong and even worse, it is senseless. People (cops or others) do not “profile” people where they are NOT; they profile people where they ARE. Being of the same race as someone who was previously in the same place, and being thought of as a criminal for that reason, is being PROFILED. Geography doesn’t change that. What you’re saying is that Zimmerman was RIGHT to profile Martin because there had been a Black criminal in that neighborhood before!
ENDQUOtE
Its not that there had been a black criminal before…as in ANY time in the last 100 years of this latitude and longitude
It was that there were MULTIPLE burglaries, thefts, breakins committed by young black males IN THAT COMPLEX RECENTLY. Thats the kicker that means its not profiling…its something else called common sense.
Just like if there was a crime and the police see someone who fits the description walking around the crime scene who witnesses say they saw leaving the crime scene…the cops will detain that guy. Not because they are profiling them, but because IT MAKES SENSE. Calling this “profiling” is just race baiting
lets be reasonable. Malisha, if your house was burglarized two times and two times you saw young black males running away from your house, as you came home, carrying your valuables.
Tell me…would you be “profiling” when a few nights later you see a young black male wandering around the perimeter of your property? NO!
Same with Zimmerman..he was not profiling
Please stop using that baseless insipid word…it is not applicable here given the RECENT context of crime in the same GATED COMMUNITY.
Was that those plural eyewitnesses or that single eyewitness who also took the picture of Zimmerman’s head (maybe Frank Taafe?)?
Because I saw a news interview with a witness who was behind a screen with voice-camouflage technology so you couldn’t even tell the gender of the person interviewed, and he or she told quite a different story. Of course, you might have spoken with the witness you prefer…that might not, however, be the witness whose story Corey preferred.
BettKath
Witnesses saw z shoot m while m was on top of z. Also the forensics showed he was shot between 1in and 18in. (aka intermiediate range) I remember ther being a follow up report that it was actually in the single digit range or about 2-3 inch from gun tip to martin skin.
It matches zimmeran story and the eyewitness