In the 1960s and 1970s, one of the most feared violent revolutionary groups was the Weathermen. It seemed that they had returned . . . and they are better armed. The National Weather Service has reportedly asked for 16,000 rounds of .40 S&W jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullets. Hollow points — or dum-dum bullets — are illegal under international law in war because they are designed to flattened upon impact and cause massive wounds to targets. Now a spokesman for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has said it is all a mistake. They are not armed weathermen . . . they are arming the Fisheries office personnel.
An additional 6,000 rounds of S&W JHP are to be sent to Wall, New Jersey and another 24,000 rounds to St. Petersburg, Florida. It is not clear why the National Weather Service — part of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) — needs this arsenal. However, it is following the lead of Homeland Security which purchased 450 million rounds of .40-caliber hollow point bullets.
Here is the correction:
Due to a clerical error in the federal business vendor process, a solicitation for ammunition and targets for the NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement mistakenly identified NOAA’s National Weather Service as the requesting office. The error is being fixed and will soon appear correctly in the electronic federal bidding system. The ammunition is standard issue for many law enforcement agencies and it will be used by 63 NOAA enforcement personnel in their firearms qualifications and training.
The question remains why hollow points are standard equipment for domestic federal law enforcement. The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits the use of bullets which easily expand or flatten in the body. This is a provision governing the weapons used in “warfare.” Notably, England fought to keep dum dums legal in the Hague in 1899, but only one country supported it . . . the United States (which wanted to use them in the Philippines). The vote was 22-2.
The question is whether we should be using dum-dums domestically when they are illegal in warfare under international law. While illegal in England and states like New Jersey, they remain common in the United States. Thus, we cannot use them against Al Qaeda insurgents in Iraq but we can used them on a suspect in a fisheries office?
Kraaken, At least they would only have one bullet.
If this wasn’t so frightning, it would be funny. Imagine an entire department made up of Barney Fifes carrying weapons loaded with ammunition that have been prohibited since 1899! The mind boggles.
Multiple agencies getting these bullets. This can’t be a good sign.
Here’s what the govt. is doing in Honduras: “http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/faultlines/2012/08/201281381310569607.html
“Honduras has become the newest front in the US war on drugs in Latin America. The US has provided financial support for both the police and the military there in spite of its deep corruption issues.
Furthermore, members of both institutions have been linked to a range of killings. Political dissidents, human rights workers and members of the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community have all been killed at alarming rates.
In May, a mission in the Moskitia region, which was led by the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), left four innocent civilians killed and four others wounded. It was followed by two more incidents where a US DEA agent shot and killed an alleged drug trafficker. Local communities have demanded a thorough investigation but so far nothing has been done.”
Everything that happens elsewhere is or will happen here. Why are all these agencies getting bullets now? I don’t know. I’d like to know. I’d also like to know why Obama went to court to remove the judicial stay on NDAA last week.
From RT.com
“The mission statement of the US Social Security Administration is to deliver services that meet the changing needs of the public. They are doing that by placing an order for 174,000 rounds of hollow point bullets.
The SSA has published a solicitation on the FedBizOpps website specifically asking for ammo manufactures to provide them with a quote for a massive order of hollow point bullets. The administration is on the lookout for the most affordable lot of 174,000 .357 Duty Carry Sig 125 grain bonded JHP hollow point bullet ammunition, according to a synopsis that accompanies their solicitation for quotes, although the mission statement of the federal agency offers no indication of why they are wanting any ammo, let alone tens of thousands of rounds.”
Teach a man to kill a fish and he will kill the elderly as well?
Thanks Gene,
I needed that.
Social Security Administration To Purchase 174 Thousand Rounds Of Hollow Point Bullets
First it was the Department of Homeland Security, then it was the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and now the Social Security Administration is set to purchase 174,000 rounds of hollow point bullets that will be delivered to 41 locations across the country.
http://www.infowars.com/social-security-administration-to-purchase-174-thousand-rounds-of-hollow-point-bullets/
I just spent the last hour counting the number of separate military, para-military, and quasi-military groups that are entitled to be on my property if the need should arise.
Mind you, I live within spitting distance of a Metropark that receives some funds from the National Parks and close to a border between 2 cities and counties plus one Great Lake.
I stopped counting at 22 because I wasn’t sure where to classify the private investigator who was caught on one of my surveillance cameras a couple weeks ago. (My neighbor is involved in some sort of messy legal action.)
(The surveillance camera system was installed a few years ago for the purpose of catching shots of the wildlife that roams our property. By wildlife I’m referring to the 4 legged, no thumbs critters.)
So I stopped doing anymore research because it just got too depressing. It seems as though every agency, local, state, and federal has to have an armed division.
Bob K.,
Just for you . . .
Darren,
“Again, I think it is more important to determine the true intentions of any government agency rather than only focusing on instrumentalities they possess. It would be time better spent on ascertaining the former.”
Although stated function is relevant, I’m going to have to disagree and I think Jefferson would as well. Intentions are nebulous and change with administrations and personnel. The way to prevent abuses of militaristic instrumentalities is to limit their creation and use at the onset.
You guys are making my second amendment remedy tingle, with all this macho talk about firepower, killing, and penetration.
Oh, my, as George Takei would say.
This thread provides a fascinating overview of the U.S.A. mindset.
Most people probably are not aware, but jacketed hollow point ammo has been used for well over thirty years in civilian LE in this country. So the selection of the JHP .40 cal ammo is not in itself out of the ordinary.
There is an aspect of this purchase which most people I speculate are unaware of. The NOAA actually has a small uniformed service named the NOAA Commissioned Officer Corps; one of the seven uniformed services of the United States (the others are the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, and Public Health Service of which the Surgeon General is the agency head). This service has only just over 300 personnel, but they are subject to the same rules of war or POW status as any soldier or sailor would.
While most military services have their civilian LE investigative arm, the personnel in these must be civilians and not members of the military itself due to various jursidictional issues with civilians.
Again, I think it is more important to determine the true intentions of any government agency rather than only focusing on instrumentalities they possess. It would be time better spent on ascertaining the former.
Wow, feemeister, did you notice that the overwhelming majority of supply bidders were small companies operated by disabled Vets!…I guess it’s true that for many, the War never ends….
Startin to read like Alex Jones.
HOLLOW
It doesn’t stop there. Now the Social Security Administration has apparently just put out a bid also. Chee, they need it to blast the old people? 174,000 rounds of hooow point bullets delivered to 41 locations across the country
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=6c39a2a9f00a10187a1432388a3301e5&tab=core&_cview=0&fb_source=message
Creeper is that you and a Snow Goose???
I think it’s because they are responsible for this area: ‘NOAA’s National Marine Fisheries Service is the federal agency, a division of the Department of Commerce, responsible for the stewardship of the nation’s living marine resources and their habitat. NOAA’s National Marine Fisheries Service is responsible for the management, conservation and protection of living marine resources within the United States’ Exclusive Economic Zone (water three to 200 mile offshore). ‘
What I’d like to know is will they be keeping an eye on the BP’s and their buds in the Gulf? Also, all those pipelines and stuff out there could be a nasty target for eco-terrorists….
No, the question that remains is why the hell people charged with managing our FISH population are being armed.
It’s bad enough that our state armed the DNS. Now I can anchor out there on the big river in my little boat and wonder if it’ll be the feds or the state guys who shoot me for sitting in my boat wrong.
You think that’s crazy? Some locals were stopped a few weeks ago by the DNR because they weren’t “sitting properly” in their boat.
These communists want total control of the population and they will kill to get it.
So this is where Michael Brown ( “Brownie, you’re doing a heckuva job”) ended up.
“I’m not a gun rights guy at all, but the better question seems to me to be why is hollow point ammo illegal in warfare? ”
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So to me the even bigger question would be….who is currently playing by the rules anyway?
I trust our Wildlife and Natural resource people (the ones on the ground anyway….), why did they say they needed them?
“The question is whether we should be using dum-dums domestically when they are illegal in warfare under international law. While illegal in England and states like New Jersey, they remain common in the United States. Thus, we cannot use them against Al Qaeda insurgents in Iraq but we can used them on a suspect in a fisheries office?”
I’m not a gun rights guy at all, but the better question seems to me to be why is hollow point ammo illegal in warfare? The answer given that it is too deadly doesn’t make sense to me. That or otherwise disabling them seems to be the point of shooting someone in warfare (or self-defense). So, my take is that the prohibition of hollow points in warfare is nonsensical (and probably a result of it being somewhat novel and offending to the sensibilities of the time). Thus, I don’t have a problem with cops (or citizens as long as we’re gonna allow them to be armed) to use hollow points. If it’s right to shoot a gun at someone, then it’s right to be effective in that shooting.
Black helicopters aren’t the issue.
Inefficiency and arming units of government unnecessarily is though.
The FWS has a 2.3 billion dollar budget and their mandate clearly covers coastal fisheries.
Why the duplication of effort?
This isn’t about Woods Hole or NOAA’s scientific functions. This is about why do they need police functions in the first place when the FWS already has/had jurisdiction over coastal water fisheries? If they have safety concerns for scientists in the field, it seems a lot more efficient to send an FWS officer or two out with them rather than give the agency its own police force even if that means expanding the FWS budget to cover the man-hours.