In the 1960s and 1970s, one of the most feared violent revolutionary groups was the Weathermen. It seemed that they had returned . . . and they are better armed. The National Weather Service has reportedly asked for 16,000 rounds of .40 S&W jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullets. Hollow points — or dum-dum bullets — are illegal under international law in war because they are designed to flattened upon impact and cause massive wounds to targets. Now a spokesman for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has said it is all a mistake. They are not armed weathermen . . . they are arming the Fisheries office personnel.
An additional 6,000 rounds of S&W JHP are to be sent to Wall, New Jersey and another 24,000 rounds to St. Petersburg, Florida. It is not clear why the National Weather Service — part of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) — needs this arsenal. However, it is following the lead of Homeland Security which purchased 450 million rounds of .40-caliber hollow point bullets.
Here is the correction:
Due to a clerical error in the federal business vendor process, a solicitation for ammunition and targets for the NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement mistakenly identified NOAA’s National Weather Service as the requesting office. The error is being fixed and will soon appear correctly in the electronic federal bidding system. The ammunition is standard issue for many law enforcement agencies and it will be used by 63 NOAA enforcement personnel in their firearms qualifications and training.
The question remains why hollow points are standard equipment for domestic federal law enforcement. The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits the use of bullets which easily expand or flatten in the body. This is a provision governing the weapons used in “warfare.” Notably, England fought to keep dum dums legal in the Hague in 1899, but only one country supported it . . . the United States (which wanted to use them in the Philippines). The vote was 22-2.
The question is whether we should be using dum-dums domestically when they are illegal in warfare under international law. While illegal in England and states like New Jersey, they remain common in the United States. Thus, we cannot use them against Al Qaeda insurgents in Iraq but we can used them on a suspect in a fisheries office?
NOAA is the agency who runs those weather alert radio systems a lot of people depend on. I have a weather alert radio on my computer desk at the office. They are very good at what they do, and their accurate weather alerts have been a lifesaver for untold numbers of people.
I was unaware they had anything to do with fisheries and wildlife, but I can see the need for those officers carrying sidearms. I don’t care for handgun ammo smaller than a .45. However, for stopping power by small arms in a life or death situation, I want hollowpoints or wadcutters. A jacketed 9mm will go through an animal or person without stopping them. A big heavy subsonic .45 ACP has a lot of knockdown power regardless of the point on the round. That is why the 1911 Colt is one of my favored weapons for self defense, even if the magazine does not hold many rounds. There was one shooting incident a few years ago in the middle of a street. The coked-up armed perp was shot over ten times with copper jacketed 9mm rounds, yet kept shooting at the officers before he was finally killed.
I have worked on several cases where game wardens and surveyors, both State and Federal, have been shot at. Some poachers do not want to go to jail, and then there are people who do not want agents on their property, so will shoot first and ask questions later. I have also been chased up a tree by a wild pig, and I only had a little .410 shotgun loaded with squirrel shot. If there had not been a tree handy that I could climb, she would have killed me. I had inadvertently gotten between her and her several little piglets.
When I lived in an apartment is a not so nice area, I had hollow points for my .38 Special so that if I had to shoot a burglar or attacker, my bullet would not hit a person three doors down. Even if I missed the attacker, the bullets would stay in my wall rather than continuing down through other apartments. Even if the bullet made it through my wall, it would be so deformed it would not go much further or do little damage to my neighbor. Hollow points are good for those gun owners who care what is behind what they are shooting at. It is not just for gutting the person you are shooting at.
JCTheBigTree, Thanks for the informative comment. However, it will not soothe the hand wringing folks who are constantly looking out for black helicopters.
The Norway mass murderer used hollow points.
The NOAA is far more than the Atmospheric portion of the name. They are charged with the researching/science necessary to help sustain the oceanic resources surrounding our country… The Dept. of Wildlife & Fisheries is an internally focused department and the NOAA is the organization with the necessary knowledge & understanding of the ocean that is required to protect those species beyond fish.
My assumption is the bulk of the ammo is going to Florida because I’m sure there is a lot more non-American boat traffic in the area and I’d be shocked if there wasn’t rampant poaching. Not to mention the NOAA individuals are probably fairly likely to have run in’s with drug runners.
I’m okay with them having ammo.
Do they need hollow point? Eh. Personally, I find a sick humor in the idea that a type of bullet is banned in warfare, but fragment grenades & mines are ‘OK’. A bullet is a bullet.
Typically, the hollow points sold at your local retailer is sold as ‘home defense’ rounds… Particularily, I assume, because it will gut out an intruder…
What I really don’t like about it? They’re far more expensive and if their qualifications and training, they should just be using the cheaper full metal jackets.
“Fisheries
NOAA is dedicated to protecting and preserving the nation’s living marine resources through scientific research, fisheries management, enforcement and habitat conservation. NOAA’s National Marine Fisheries Service (NOAA Fisheries) is the lead federal agency responsible for the stewardship of the nation’s offshore living marine resources and their habitat. NOAA Fisheries manages, conserves and protects fish, whales, dolphins, sea turtles and other living creatures in the ocean.
NOAA Fisheries works within the Magnuson-Stevens Act, the Marine Mammal Protection Act and the Endangered Species Act to fulfill its mission of promoting healthy ecosystems. Federally-managed living marine resources provide an important source of food and recreation for the nation, as well as thousands of jobs and a traditional way of life for many coastal communities. As a world class science agency that serves the entire country, the mission of NOAA Fisheries is to ensure healthy fisheries and habitat for the benefit of all Americans.
NOAA Fisheries works closely with other NOAA offices to protect and conserve marine resources. Specifically, NOAA’s Office of Oceanic and Atmospheric Research explores and investigates ocean habitats and resources. NOAA’s National Ocean Service provides maps and other data to help fishers and managers and also maintains a network of Marine Sanctuaries and Estuarine Research Reserves to help protect important resources. NOAA’s Office of Marine and Aviation Operations provides a fleet of ships and boats to support the agency’s fisheries operations.”
The O in NOAA is for Oceanic. NOAA has responsibility for managing the marine environment within 3 to 200 miles offshore the US. I guess part of that mission is to shoot people who catch an extra shrimp.
NOAA is a spy organization; they have a cartography cover.
Stormfront?
Another thing to keep in mind is that standard pistol rounds – including 44 magnum – are like a pop gun compared to centerfire rifle ammo.
A military rifle round is more than sufficient to drop a person without need for a hollowpoint bullet – there is simply way more energy to a rifle round, and this energy is retained much further downfield than typical pistol rounds, which tend to have non aerodynamic shapes and much lower initial velocities.
Coincidence? I think not!
Gene, you missed a couple of related stories on HuffPo:
“Scrabble Player Caught Cheating At National Championship Tournament”
Csanad Szegedi, Hungarian far right antisemitic politician discovers he is Jewish. There is a career ender for a neo-Nazi if there ever was one.
“Bulwer-Lytton 2012: Cathy Bryant Wins Worst Opening Sentence Competition” with this forgettable line:
This is totally OT . . . or maybe not if you consider the phrase “dumb and dumber”. As I was reading the Huff Po this morning, I noticed these were the top 5 headlines. Coincidence?
Lede: ROCK BOTTOM: CONGRESS HITS ALL-TIME LOW
Second: Ryan More Harm Than Good For Romney, Say Insiders
Third: WATCH: McCain Weighs In On Romney’s Tax Returns
Fourth: Why Does Everyone Keep Calling Paul Ryan ‘Serious’?
Fifth: NSFW: Are Anal Tattoos The Next Big Thing?
I just can’t shake the feeling these stories are connected.
I now return you to wondering why a section of the Department of Commerce responsible for weather forecasting has police powers over fisheries.
I’m with Gene — why exactly does NOAA’s Fisheries Office have law enforcement? Sounds dumb, to wit:
Frankly,
I wasn’t questioning arming game wardens. I was questioning why the Hell NOAA has game wardens in the first place when we already have the Dept. of Wildlife & Fisheries. Couldn’t that money be better spent on, oh I don’t know, predicting and monitoring the weather?
BTW – fish and game enforcement officers are often confronted with armed citizens (not surprising since they are often hunting) and a surprising number of them do get shot so their being armed shouldn’t surprise anyone either.
The reason you law enforcement would want hollow points is two-fold. They tend to ricochet less and penetrate objects less, which is nice when you are firing into unknowable backgrounds because you are less likely to hit someone you didn’t intend to hit. Thats a good thing. Then there is the other thing. Unlike combat where you might have a dozen rifles at your side in a law confrontation it might just be you & the bad guy, when you hit him or her you want them to go down and stay down.
Now, for that second point, the .40 is less than ideal but I guess everyone makes compromises.
Truly, it make me wonder what other agencies that have no rational need to being militarized are being militarized.
Uh oh, a new “turrisstttt” organization has replaced “The Weathermen … look out look out it is The Fishermen coming to getcha … good thing the TSA was there feeling us good.
Don’t underestimate the danger of a bass when cornered, but I’d like to know exactly how this came under NOAA’s purview? It’s a redundant function to the Department of Wildlife and Fisheries. Why do weathermen have any say in fisheries policy let alone have police powers?
It all smells fishy to me.
Well, raff, when you have dumb and dumber in charge….. They thought they were just helping out a family enterprise…..dumb dums….. From what I understand is when the bullet hits….. It flattens out and basically will clean guts out…..they are used solely to kill and immobilize the target….
It doesn’t make sense. Are hollow point bullets cheaper? If they are too deadly for war, how in the hell can our policeman use them?