Sandusky’s Apologist: Child Abuse Victims “Seduce” Their Tormentors According To Catholic Monk

By Mark Esposito, Guest Blogger

Fr. Benedict Groeschel is a prominent member of the ultra-right Franciscan Friars of the Renewal with his own religious column and a programming spot on EWTN, the ominous sounding Global Catholic Channel. In a recent article in the Catholic Register, Groeschel takes aim at the Sandusky scandal at Penn State and the objects of his ire are the child abuse victims. Because, to the learned friar, it is Sandusky, and not his prey, that is the rightful recipient of sympathy. Calling Sandusky “this poor guy” he says:

“People have this picture in their minds of a person planning to — a psychopath. But that’s not the case. Suppose you have a man having a nervous breakdown, and a youngster comes after him. A lot of the cases, the youngster — 14, 16, 18 — is the seducer.”

Groeschel also went on to explain that, based on his take on history, sexual relationships between men and young boys are not matters of legal concern:

“If you go back 10 or 15 years ago with different sexual difficulties — except for rape or violence — it was very rarely brought as a civil crime. Nobody thought of it that way. Sometimes statutory rape would be — but only if the girl pushed her case. Parents wouldn’t touch it. People backed off, for years, on sexual cases. I’m not sure why. . .

At this point, (when) any priest, any clergyman, any social worker, any teacher, any responsible person in society would become involved in a single sexual act — not necessarily intercourse — they’re done.

And I’m inclined to think, on their first offense, they should not go to jail because their intention was not committing a crime.”

It’s easy to dismiss this as the ramblings of a crazy old man who has since apologized and blamed his age and the lingering effects of an  automobile accident for the inexplicable sentiments.  But what is frightening is the absolute silence from Rome or any other Catholic authority decrying the madness. Oh, the Catholic Register hurriedly pulled the piece and apologized but not until the backblast became overwhelming. The CR  added that it published the story based on Fr. Groeschel’s “stellar history,” and without the publication’s “usual screening and oversight.”   The Franciscan Friars of  Renewal went into damage-control and stated the obvious that, ” A child is never responsible for abuse. Any abuser of a child is always responsible, especially a priest. Sexual abuse of a minor is a terrible crime and should always be treated as such.”

But the troubling aspect of the scandal hasn’t been explored. What if Fr. Groeschel’s words aren’t the product of a month-long coma and  failing “health, memory and cognitive ability” as the hierarchy suggests? (After all he still has his TV show explaining Catholic dogma). What if the editors of the Catholic Register actually did do the jobs they are paid for and approved the article?  And finally, what if these sentiments, far from being on the periphery of  Catholic thought, are in the mainstream attitude of Catholic clergy?


No more so than the myriad of child sexual abuse scandals that have rocked the church and made Sandusky an amateur by comparison.

~Mark Esposito, Guest Blogger

65 thoughts on “Sandusky’s Apologist: Child Abuse Victims “Seduce” Their Tormentors According To Catholic Monk

  1. Excellent find Mark, because it brings focus on psychopathology masking as wisdom.

    This adds to what George Monbiot wrote about denialism and the leaders of the world literally going mad:

    Yesterday was August 28th 2012. Remember that date. It marks the day when the world went raving mad.

    Three things of note happened. The first is that a record Arctic ice melt had just been announced by the scientists studying the region. The 2012 figure has not only beaten the previous record, established in 2007. It has beaten it three weeks before the sea ice is likely to reach its minimum extent. It reveals that global climate breakdown is proceeding more rapidly than most climate scientists expected. But you could be forgiven for missing it, as it scarcely made the news at all.

    When your children ask how and why it all went so wrong, point them to yesterday’s date, and explain that the world is not led by rational people

    (The Peak of Sanity – 5, quoting Monbiot). It is getting scary out there … but we have been warned for a long time to closely watch out for and beware of those who are exposed to power.

    It doesn’t matter whether they are secularists or religionists.

  2. Mark,

    “But the troubling aspect of the scandal hasn’t been explored. What if Fr. Groeschel’s words aren’t the product of a month-long coma and failing “health, memory and cognitive ability” as the hierarchy suggests?”

    “And finally, what if these sentiments, far from being on the periphery of Catholic thought, are in the mainstream attitude of Catholic clergy?”


    Glad you wrote a post about this. I had read this story the other day–and just shook my head. One has to wonder why the interview was published. One has to question the judgment of the editors of the Catholic Register. I think Groeschel may believe what many other child sex abusers believe. I think this type of mentality may be more common among the clergy than we’d like to believe.

  3. Die already, Groeshel, you 90 year old Piece of Crap. You sound like Bill Donahue, that other pathetic Catholickass apologist. Both of you have kept Geebus waiting for far too long…. Go ahead, both of you, disappear… make this a better Planet

  4. Zarathustra,

    Speaking of Bill Donohue:

    Catholic League’s Bill Donohue Defends Priest Who Blamed Children For Their Abuse
    AUGUST 31, 2012

    Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League, issued a statement yesterday defending Father Benedict Groeschel, who earlier this week blamed child victims of pedophile priests for their rapes. Calling Groeschel’s service “heroic,” and his record “impressive,” Donohue claims Father Groeschel merely “hypothesized how a young person (14, 16 or 18, as he put it) could conceivably take advantage of a priest who was having a nervous breakdown.” Groeschel told the National Catholic Register that in a “lot of the cases, the youngster — 14, 16, 18 — is the seducer.”

  5. Age and infirmity are no excuse for this kind of belief system. I have been evaluating sex offenders for almost a half century and have heard this kind of mental gymnastic before. Almost to a man (most are men, a smaller percentage are women) sex offenders either blame the victim, or try to place blame outside themselves. This guy did not come up with this overnight. He sounds just like a lot of guys we had on the Protective Custody unit of the prison. We had to keep them in PC because even the hardened lifers and gang bangers wanted to kill them.

  6. The Church has always viewed the child abuse scandal as a PR problem to be managed in order to protect the institution. One Cardinal argued it was a scandal created by an Anti catholic media. This man is not alone in his blame the victim mentality look no further than the Republican Party platform.

  7. Sadly it seem there are many people that believe that it’s ok to molest children because “It never used to be a crime”.
    Well it is now you sickos!

  8. I wish there were a link to the full article. I know it got pulled, but since the author is quoting from it, I assume he has access to the full article.

  9. Waldo,

    Here’s an excerpt from the interview that I found on Commonweal:

    What happened to NCRegister’s controversial interview with Fr. Benedict Groeschel?
    August 30, 2012,

    From the interview:
    Part of your work here at Trinity has been working with priests involved in abuse, no?

    A little bit, yes; but you know, in those cases, they have to leave. And some of them profoundly — profoundly — penitential, horrified. People have this picture in their minds of a person planning to — a psychopath. But that’s not the case. Suppose you have a man having a nervous breakdown, and a youngster comes after him. A lot of the cases, the youngster — 14, 16, 18 — is the seducer.

    Why would that be?

    Well, it’s not so hard to see — a kid looking for a father and didn’t have his own — and they won’t be planning to get into heavy-duty sex, but almost romantic, embracing, kissing, perhaps sleeping but not having intercourse or anything like that. It’s an understandable thing, and you know where you find it, among other clergy or important people; you look at teachers, attorneys, judges, social workers. Generally, if they get involved, it’s heterosexually, and if it’s a priest, he leaves and gets married — that’s the usual thing — and gets a dispensation. A lot of priests leave quickly, get civilly married and then apply for the dispensation, which takes about three years. But there are the relatively rare cases where a priest is involved in a homosexual way with a minor. I think the statistic I read recently in a secular psychology review was about 2%.

    Would that be true of other clergy? Would it be true of doctors, lawyers, coaches?

    Here’s this poor guy — [Penn State football coach Jerry] Sandusky — it went on for years. Interesting: Why didn’t anyone say anything? Apparently, a number of kids knew about it and didn’t break the ice. Well, you know, until recent years, people did not register in their minds that it was a crime. It was a moral failure, scandalous; but they didn’t think of it in terms of legal things. If you go back 10 or 15 years ago with different sexual difficulties — except for rape or violence — it was very rarely brought as a civil crime. Nobody thought of it that way. Sometimes statutory rape would be — but only if the girl pushed her case. Parents wouldn’t touch it. People backed off, for years, on sexual cases. I’m not sure why. I think perhaps part of the reason would be an embarrassment, that it brings the case out into the open, and the girl’s name is there, or people will figure out what’s there, or the youngster involved — you know, it’s not put in the paper, but everybody knows; they’re talking about it. At this point, (when) any priest, any clergyman, any social worker, any teacher, any responsible person in society would become involved in a single sexual act — not necessarily intercourse — they’re done. And I’m inclined to think, on their first offense, they should not go to jail because their intention was not committing a crime. What has the Church learned in terms of preventing this? We’ve been screening seminarians for decades. That’s nothing new. I’ve been doing it for 40 years, for our old community — the Capuchins — for the diocese, for our small religious community. … It takes a lot of time — four or five hours — to do a psychological screening, and I don’t have a lot of time. There were times in the past when I’d do 30 of them. I’d do it for our community and our sisters. Also, it’s very expensive. Now, I never got a nickel, but it costs between $800 and $1,200 for a psychological battery. I used to teach psychological evaluations. You know, we’ve reduced considerably the number of seminarians, and the Church is going to be in plenty of trouble as time goes on — one pastor for two or three parishes. So permanent deacons, laypeople, deaconesses — if you don’t want to call them that — you’re going to need a lot of people helping to keep the parish going. And that may not be a bad thing at all. Years ago, in the New York Archdiocese, you were an assistant for about 25 or 30 years before you became a pastor. We’re making men pastors with five years’ experience. It was too long before, and it’s too short at present. There have been a number of high-profile priests in recent years who have gone astray.

    As a prominent priest yourself, would you say there’s something about fame that goes to the heads of priests like this?

    It could. I wouldn’t want to say about any particular person, but people could be foolish enough to take themselves too seriously. It’s true: I’m reasonably well known, and that’s because I broadcast and I write. I don’t write and broadcast to be well known. It’s the opposite. For many years, I was happy as the chaplain of Children’s Village. I’ve written 45 books, but the vast majority of my books are written for devout people [holding up a copy of a recent book, he continues]: Now, this annoys me, when they put my picture on the cover. But it’s also very good to be coming close to death. I just passed, three years ago, the average age of when a man in the United States dies: 75. I’m pushing 79. … When you start getting close to the age where you start thinking about where you’d like to be buried … you do think about the Church’s, the Christian belief — and largely the belief of many other religions — that the individual, as a person, goes through death, and they have to some degree memory and will. What’s missing when you have a dead body? That’s what’s there. The whole personality is gone. That’s on the other side. The Christian belief of the saints … they’re on the other side. I’m looking forward. I’m fascinated by what’s coming next. We’re passing through this valley, and, for a great many people, life has been difficult. Not just for the poor. There’s a sign I put up there on the wall: Be calm and carry on. I am immensely grateful to God that I knew when I was 6 or 7 years old that I was supposed to be a priest — and a friar or a monk when I was 13 or 14. A poem that we had by Longfellow, called The Legend — beautiful — about a monk who had seen a vision of Christ; and he had to leave the vision because the bell was ringing, and the poor people were there to be fed. And he didn’t know — Should I go or should I stay? Should I go to the ragged people at the gate? And he goes, and he feeds the poor for several hours. And he comes back and opens the door, and Christ is standing (there), and Christ said to him, “If thou had stayed, I must have fled.” The nuns taught it to us in the eighth grade. It put it in my mind to be a monk. And I look back — and I didn’t know much about priests. We had very nice priests in the parish. I knew nothing about priests not getting married. Father O’Donnell, a big Irishman who walked up and down every street in the parish every day — one of the great old priests, in Our Lady of Victory in beautiful Jersey City. I was there and very happy.

  10. Actually, thanks to the miracle of the Internet google can provide you with several links to the whole thing Wally. What the church has taken away technology will reveal. Thank Yahweh the church no longer control the means of communications.

    Back in the middle ages when prelates slipped up and told the truth about their organization they would often put on rough garments made of sackcloth (burlap really) smear ashes on themselves and agree to be flogged on the church steps as a sign of penance and devotion to the church.

    At 90 this creep is probably too old to withstand the abuse but he certainly could take a vow of silence. While that might save the church from further exposure of its sickness it would have the benefit of sparing us from witnessing their diseased minds.

  11. It has to be either the devil or the children because, heaven forbid, it is actually the grown-ups and , gulp, priests (and monks)

  12. I have always said that God made rifles for a good purpose. More humans need to put them to good use. I wanna know what that monk is doing under the robes with the missing arm and hand.

  13. “You want to know what’s really scary? This pervert has been screening candidates for admission to the priesthood for 40 years.” (mespo)

    That explains how pedophiles gained such a prominent position within the Catholic priesthood. And he’s still there … merely hypothesizing my eyebrow.

  14. Mark, I’ve ranted about the depravity of the Catholic Church, this is exhibit# 2455. Elaine, good link..Donahue is a buffoon and always good for idiotic quotes. It’s like having Joe Biden as your spokeman.

  15. Folks, The Catholic priesthood evolved into the world’s largest pedophile club many decades ago. I have personal and professional stories that made it clear to me long ago.

  16. Blaming the victims, a classic sign of a molester. I agree with Mark, one has to wonder if people who make such outlandish claims as to generalizations about victims encouraging their own raping often points to the speaker being one of the offenders.

    A friend of mine at the Sheriff’s Office had a case where a man about 25 years old was accused of molesting his 8 year old god-son. The evidence was good. During the interview, he admitted to having sex with the boy but was professing strongly he was raped.

    When my buddy asked him if he thought that others would find it hard to believe a 25 year old man was raped by an 8 year old boy, the man continued to say it could happen, and it did to him.

    I know this is just an individual case but has semblence of many others.

  17. This is not confined to the Catholic Church unfortunately. It is prevelant in many other institutions that deal with children. It is also very often the kind of ideology in conservative, hierarchical organizations that grant near unlimited power to a priest or other such “leader” that fosters such “thinking”. One can see the same thing in the military as witness the recent court-martials in the USAF.

  18. Molestering kids, and blame them too !
    Guess he will blame all the human race, male or female to be seducers, maybe he was one, once when he was 14 16 18 years of age.
    Doesn’t he know the Scriptures, God made mankind one of each and animals, one you satisfy your hunger with, and one you satisfy your needs with….. oh did he mix them up !
    The seed of the problems have been and will always be, the fact that they believe in marrying the church, not the God- made other pair, to love and produce offsprings with.


    Most child molesters are able to molest dozens of children before they are caught. Boys and girls are at nearly equal risk to be abused and almost a quarter will be molested sometime before their 18th birthday. Most children do not tell anyone, and those who do often have to tell multiple people before someone calls the police or child welfare services. The overwhelming majority of child sexual abuse victims are abused by someone they know and trust, someone most parents would never suspect. Females are estimated to account for less than 20% of child molesters.

    Most child molesters are in a position of trust and are often able to undermine the child’s ability to accurately perceive the behavior as abusive. Most molesters are also able to convince other adults that it never happened or that the child misunderstood.

    Molesters abuse children they are sexually and emotionally attracted to, children they feel are vulnerable and needy, and children they feel that they can control and manipulate into keeping the abuse a secret.

    Child molesters may lead up to the abuse by forming a friendship or paying special attention to the child, taking them places, buying them gifts or giving them extra support and encouragement. They may offer to “help out” with babysitting or transportation. They may exploit children who are neglected or verbally abused by their parents by positioning themselves as the one who is “nice” while the parents are “mean”. If the child’s relationship with the parents is basically sound, the offender may try to start conflicts within the family in order to alienate the child from the family.

    Molesters also test and desensitize children by telling dirty jokes, talking about sexual things and engaging in non-sexual physical contact like back-rubs, wrestling, hugging and horseplay. This behavior generally starts long before the sexual touching starts and serves to normalize contact and trust. The increased physical relationship and intimate talk between the child and offender makes it easier for the offender to introduce sexual behavior into the relationship. If the child’s parent has been present when some of the close physical contact or joking has occurred, it also makes the child think it must be ok.

    Some offenders are so good at developing dependent relationships that their victims feel obligated and may even feel protective of the offender, especially when the offender is a parent, relative, admired family friend, teacher, coach or priest.

    Many molesters work just as hard to seduce and manipulate adults as they do children. They may work very hard to present themselves as a moral and upright person. They think about and plan lies and excuses to talk people out of reporting them to law enforcement if caught or suspected.

  20. Darren, sad thing is he may well have convinced himself that the child did, indeed, rape him. (I have to wonder if that is how some of them rationjalize it to themselves – at least those with some sembleance of a conscience.)

  21. Excellent article Mark. This wingnut is not the extreme of the Catholic Church. I think he is the mainstream. For decades the RCC has hid and still hides the identities of most priest abusers and in many cases the predators were sent to other parishes to continue their pedophilia. There are Bishops, Cardinals and maybe even Popes who should be doing time.

  22. The latest on the sexual abuse of a child by a priest from my neck of the woods:

    Priest accused of rape
    McCormick pleads not guilty to assaults on boy at summer camp

    IPSWICH — A former high-ranking Catholic priest repeatedly raped a boy at a summer camp in Ipswich 30 years ago, forcing the frightened victim to seek safety in the woods, on a fire escape and under a bunk, prosecutors said yesterday.

    The Rev. Richard J. McCormick, 71, pleaded not guilty to five counts of child rape and was released on $1,000 cash bail to the custody of a fellow Salesian Brothers priest.

    Ipswich police arrested McCormick on Thursday in New Rochelle, N.Y., where he lives at the Salesians’ eastern U.S. headquarters. Standing in handcuffs yesterday in Salem Superior Court, McCormick said “not guilty” five times in a strong voice as a clerk read each of the five counts.

    The victim came forward a year and a half ago, said Mitchell Garabedian, a Boston lawyer who has represented hundreds of victims of clergy abuse.

    Garabedian said he has reached financial settlements on behalf of nine other victims of McCormick, but this is the first time that McCormick has been charged criminally.

    “My client should be proud of himself for pursuing this criminal matter,” Garabedian said. “It takes a lot of strength and courage.”

    Garabedian said McCormick abused nine victims from 1963 to 1982 in Massachusetts, New York and, in one case, in a convent in Rome.

    McCormick is the former head of the Salesian Brothers of Don Bosco for the eastern United States, which includes thousands of members east of the Mississippi and in eastern Canada. Garabedian said the position is the equivalent of a bishop in an archdiocese.

    The abuse of the current victim took place in the summers of 1981 and 1982 when the boy was 9 and 10 years old, prosecutor Kate MacDougall said. It happened at a summer camp run by the Salesian Brothers at the Sacred Heart retreat center on County Road in Ipswich, where the Salesian Brothers once had a seminary. The property is now the home of New England Biolabs.

    McCormick’s arrest came after a yearlong investigation by the Essex County district attorney’s office and the Ipswich Police Department after the victim approached the district attorney’s office.

    MacDougall said McCormick singled out the victim because the boy did not have a father who was active in his life. She said the abuse took place both in the camp’s office and in the boy’s dorm room.

    The victim was so afraid of McCormick that he would hide in the woods, on a fire escape or under his older brother’s bunk during the night, MacDougall said.

  23. Having the normal collection of hormones (they don’t end at taking your vows), it must be tempting to a fully hetero priest to listen to the confessions. I don’t knowa about any of it, but like all things listful there are ones which must be resisted, should they ARISE.

    I will leave the matter of priest and the RCC to those more familiar. If priest candidates are so to say pre-selected by their own inclinations and by selection by priests, then that is an institutional problem.

    Thank goodness I took a vow of agnosticism at 10 years.

    I think the golden rule must encompass that one should never use/abuse others for your own pleasure. And no claims of rape or seduction please.

  24. Elaine,
    Amazing article. It is telling that 9 other victims were abused by this so-called man of god and this is the first time he has been charged criminally. Where are the Bishops who moved this guy around for years?

  25. rafflaw,

    Cardinal Law–who had been head of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston–was given a position in Rome. (Law has since left that job.)

    Cardinal Law Given Post In Rome
    By AL BAKER; Laurie Goodstein and Daniel J. Wakin contributed reporting from New York
    Published: May 28, 2004

    Cardinal Bernard F. Law, who was forced to resign as leader of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston after a long and painful sexual abuse scandal involving clergy members, was chosen by Pope John Paul II on Thursday to head a basilica in Rome.

    A statement released in the Vatican’s daily bulletin announced that Cardinal Law, who resigned in 2002, would become the archpriest of St. Mary Major Basilica, a church in a downtown neighborhood of Rome that is under direct Vatican jurisdiction.

    The statement said that Cardinal Law, 72, would succeed the 82-year-old Italian Cardinal Carlo Furno, but it did not say when. It made no mention of Cardinal Law’s new responsibilities, but a Vatican official said that ”now he will be responsible for one of the four most important basilicas” in Rome. ”He will be in charge of the administration of the priests and anything related to the basilica,” the official said of Cardinal Law. He added that the post ”is not a position of power.”

    The appointment angered the cardinal’s critics and others who see it as a reward.

    David G. Clohessy, the national director of Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, a nonprofit support group based in Chicago, chided church leaders in Rome for what he called insensitivity to abuse victims.

    ”Why can’t the Vatican officials see that any position of honor afforded to Law will inevitably and needlessly cause more pain to hundreds who have been abused and have already suffered enough?” Mr. Clohessy said. He added, ”It just rubs salt into already deep wounds for parishioners, victims and their families.”

  26. Because I am not a professional anything, I have been able to actually speak with child molesters (more than most, because of some of my volunteer activism) and get their own descriptions of whose fault everything is. I’m not sure these are listed in the exact order of prevalence (I did not do any formal tabulation, contemporaneous or historical) but:

    1. The child’s mother made me do it by being [crazy][bad][denying me sex][suggesting to the child that I was dirty].

    2. The child seduced me [because I’m so attractive][because she’s so needy][because he’s so depraved].

    3. Society made me do it because it is so obscene and hates sex.

    4. Society made me do it because people look down on me.

    5. Society made me do it because they misinterpret real affection.

    All this means is that the defender of pedophiles identifies more with THEM than with their VICTIMS. Naturally, if you see a man who has molested children and you identify more with HIM than with THEM, you don’t say, “poor kids,” you say “poor guy.” OF COURSE this monk is a pedophile, I’d lay odds on it. If he weren’t, he would be seeing things differently.

    The Talmud says, “We do not see things as they are, we see things AS WE ARE.”

  27. Do I have to read all 150,000 pages (estimated) of the various versions of the Talmud to get these nuggets?

    Or do you promise a weekly supply for the hungry.

    BTW, that pretty well sums it all up, including Plato’s cave.

  28. Why can’t the Vatican Officials see ……….. because they don’t want to see, they believe that with their vow to God and Church, everything is excusable
    because they are above the sin, because they ” sacrificed ” their life to God !
    Idiots, criminals ! just act like normal human beings ! there are enough challenges in that to please any God and rewards to collect. They jeopardized all that with their blurred minds.

  29. The things we build, from images we create.
    Block our vision, by the shadows they make.
    Then the darkness of shadow, engulf the man.
    And that is all he sees.
    And all he sees he believes.
    Beware the bars of this cage called life,
    …..And the shadows they cast. DB

    A little ditty from my pot smoking days, …many a while ago

  30. Cardinal this, Cardinal that, Cardinal sin. The only Cardinals that matter are the Saint Louis Baseball Cardinals.

  31. Professor Turley, I want you to know that it’s pure torture to me to keep finding articles about the fanatics of the Catholic faith, including the pope!! As an ex-Catholic I would rather just not seem anything which reminds me of that authoritative, misogynist and patriarchal entity. I will admit to reading them anyway and while it is a torturous experience it is also always a good reminder of why I left that religion and never replaced it with another one. Yes, people didn’t used to complain about rape for the simple reason that the church, aided often by the government, held absolute power over so many. I say this man is a disgusting pig.

  32. Something some of you may want to check involving the Catholic Church in my homeland: This week, the ex-wife of Belgium’s most notorious child killer was released. Ms.Martin, ex-wife of Marc Dutroux, who is accused of helping to lure two of the children later killed by Mr. Dutroux will go to a, get THIS, CONVENT in France; yes, the kind of place where pious nuns live, pray and work.

  33. Elaine,
    I am unfortunately familiar with the Cardinal Law case. Disgusting.
    that is an amazing story about Ms. Martin being released to a convent!

  34. Folks re Ms Martin.

    There are young nuns there! And sister nuns with the same tastes and inclinations as she has demonstrated.
    He/they let the girls starve alone in their cells. What can one say. There are no words for it.

  35. Well Idealist, I never studied Talmud. I was taught a few things from the Talmud by an American lawyer/economist, non-Jew, whose lineage is Scandinavian; that quote was one of the things HE taught me. Also:

    If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
    If I am for myself alone, what am I?
    If not now, when?

    So I figured non-Jewish lawyer/economists are pretty smart and I try to remember the stuff he teaches me when I want to look clever in company.

  36. Thanks Elaine. I don’t see anything to make the comments better, but I am a little more sympathetic to the senility excuse.

  37. I choose this one, no ranking. Just have a short tale on it.

    “If I am for myself alone, what am I?”

    A small group of humans had spotted one of the dwindling number of Neandertals in their vicinity. The youngest one, not yet recognized as a full man, was sent to “take care of the problem”.
    He did. He came back with the hungry Neandetal to the campfire to feed him.

    He was then recognized as having passed the test of being human. Empathy.

    Do we still pass the test?

  38. Malisha,

    How about their secret baby delivery department.
    Her skill in thanasia (did not say euthanasia) would be appreciated.

    Ever hear the tales of small graves in the cellar. Now if they were the nuns abouted or the villages is not clear. The first anti-Catholic tale I ever heared.

    Have since avoided listening to such tales. Although you can’t avoid them if you are in Madrid, and visit the square where the blasphemers were killed in the auto-da-fé torchings and quarterings.

    Or if you are interested in rellgious history, then you read of the Cathars when you pass through the area in France. What they did with the gnostics I am not sure. The ones in Alexandria were murdered by monks at the instigation of the bishop.

    Nice church. Lots of good deeds.

  39. Ah, the ‘Forking church is using its influence to again Polute society. Time to burn this stinking church down, I’d say…… Starting with the Vatican’t

  40. Why has the ‘Ghodly’ ediface of the church had such a negative influence on the world???? It’s almost like everything it touches…. Immediately turns to SHIT!!!!

  41. is beating a pedophile monk/priest with a baseball bat a venial or a mortal sin?

    if an 18 y/o boy wants to have an affair with a priest or monk that’s their business. a 10 or 12y/o can’t seduce anyone.

  42. Father Benedict ”Arnold” Groeschel, a Priest at the age of 17, without any foreknowledge in sexual matters, and having only the teachings of the twisted Catholickass Church from which to draw his knowledge, has lived way beyond his usefulness. My hope is that someone will jam a Louisville Slugger up his ass before he dies…… to complete his education, and before they then use that same bat to beat him to death….. He well deserves it, and I’m sure, being a Catholickass for 73 years, he will revel in the punishment.

  43. I’m no student of history, comparative religion, or hagiography (which is just a word that means something and makes people look like they know something when they use it in a sentence) but here is my pet theory on the Catholic Church. (No offense meant to anybody; I believe in universal love and all that sh*t but sometimes I get fed up.)

    I think Rome was running around the world dominating everyone and taking everything from them and pushing them around and declaring itself the ALPHA OF EVERYTHING and crucifying folks who looked like they might be able to put a stop to any of that or even significantly slow it down in any way, shape or form.

    They ran into the Jews in a certain area of the Middle East and this bunch had a religion based openly on a SLAVE REBELLION — in which their own private god (who was so powerful to them that he CHOSE them and then he announced to them that they were not to sacrifice to anybody ELSE’S gods no matter where they went, ever in life!) had reached forth his mighty arm and pulled them the Hell out of Egypt where they had been slaves. This was their RELIGION for Chrissake.

    So Rome had a particular little problem with them. It had to be very careful there, so as not to end up with a rebellion on the part of a little group of weirdo a55holes that could damage their reputation for being unassailable, and that could create “reputation problems” for them in the long run.

    Things came to a head as they usually do. Jesus was one of the problems that popped up and gave the Romans in charge there a bad hair day. There was plenty of dissension and plenty of reason for them to be able to just crucify him and make done with it, scaring his supporters into a situation they wouldn’t be able to exit from, so they crucified him on a date certain and so forth, thinking well hell, that should do it.

    Of course, a bunch of other folks got crucified too, and then some rolled over and some ran and some this and some that. I don’t know the details. I do know that James (Jesus’ brother) was supposed to be the one who would take over after him, but he got betrayed. Anyway…

    The Romans then got a bad surprise. Jesus got killed and didn’t stay dead. Somehow the guy survived death (if you’re a religious Christian, you believe he survived death by resurrection; if not, you can just go with the theory that the guy’s influence was so great that his followers incorporated his “presence” in such a way that his real effect as a human being with a transcendant message could not be destroyed even after his physical death) and then, the Romans ran out of ways to deal with the problem.

    THEY COULDN’T KILL A DEAD MAN who survived his own death!

    Their technology was a simple, brutal, dumb one: KILL FOLKS AND PUT YOUR FOOT ON THE NECKS OF THE FOLKS YOU DON’T KILL.

    Years and years later, Rome kept having trouble dominating folks as a result of not having been able to kill a guy they killed; eventually they wised up: “If you can’t beat them, join them and become the boss of them,” and when they got it, they stole the dead Jesus right out from under the people who “owned” him — the so-called Christians.

    They turned from unsuccessful Rome, trying to dominate everyone by killing them, to successful Vatican, or “The Church,” that dominated folks by various means, including NOT KILLING them whenever it was the better way to go.

    In my admittedly primitive analysis, The Church began to dominate folks by various means, and one of them was by the Priesthood being the center of awe rather than just of fear. Becoming the Center of Awe put you in a position that could be just as exploitive as being the murdering dictator, so long as you had people’s “hearts and minds.”

    Thus The Holy Church, replacing ROME. Not much of a change; just prettier clothes, more priests, different talky talk. It worked.

  44. Malisha,

    Here is an alternate version, based upon facts that the German historians who got pipi for “what is the life of Jesus the man, and did he exist” in about 1880.
    They were then aided by historians from many countries who had money and not much else to study for the moment.

    The jews were kinda nutty in their we are the chosen people with a pact with God, particularly after Joshua in 400 BC “let the high priests” discovered “old documents”, in the temple recesses, telling of their warlike history to convince them to follow him into war. They lost and got a new king.

    He also had them give up their foreign wives with foreign religions, for the umpteenth time.

    (Typical problem in patriarchites: Kill girl babies and keep the boys as old age insurance and you end up with a shortage of women. Witness Pakistan, India and Bangladesh.)

    Thereafter they became zealots and hard business dealers. writers of clsssical music (came later), etc.

    Meanwhile enter stupid Romans, with their martial arts specialities. Well, one jew in particular led a group, a city acgtually, not in Jerusalm, down to the last group of 10 men in a well.
    They made a suicide pact, but suicide being forbidden, the leader took it upon himself to take the onus of putting the others to death by sword and then to kill himself.

    All the while, the Romans were listening outside the well.
    Well, they all lived happily ever after (but vague on that), but Josephus who was the leader, was pulled up, was declared brother by the Roman leader (Caesar candidate), and declared a Roman citizen (hard to come by then).

    Josenphus went on to write of the wars and a few other historical tomes. His mention of Jesus in one of the books, has been shown to be a later forgery by aome monk copier (inspired by some vision?). Analysis show several semantic and other factual errors, including too much information, not too little.

    At any rate there discredits the only contemporary

    written mention of Christ. Instead, by comparison, there were many mentions in both roman and other surviving literature of others practicing similar deeds as those of Jesus. One had a very widespread practice of similar mirables, although not Jewish.

    One Jewish one was called the Egyptian, who even organized a largr force to evict the Romans from Jerusalem.
    They were slaughtered, his manner of death not recorded.

    So there remained a cult claiming an imminent coming of the Messiah who would free them from the Romans and instigate a world dominance for Jews, and a righteous one after defeating all foes to solve the world’s problems. It was felt that the time to act and produce a Messiah, predicted in he Scriptures, if they were not to be forgotten and lose their engaged followers.

    Enter the JESUS legend.

    Thus began what became Christianity. And it is all Paul/Saul of Tarsus fault. He divided things up with Peter, who had made it to the top, and took upon himself to evangelize the gentiles; ie the Hellenistic and eventually Roman world, although Rome is disputed as to his presence there.

    Peter failed with the Jews, Paul succeeded with some synagogues in the Hellenistic disposra, and with the gentile handarounds who dug it all, but not the circumsision and all the rules bit.

    Then came Constantine, but that was much later.

  45. Dear idealist707, glad to see your imagination is still fully functional…. And that your inability to accept reality is still functional too…. FACE it,,, There is no god-damn Ghod guiding the hands of man, Man is still the primitive animal he was when he evolved 200,000 years ago, and started creating imaginary ghods he did, to explain all of nature’s furies, because he, as yet, hadn’t the science to do so…. The EVIL Catholickass church has since taken full advantage of the situation to beat its adherants into submission, through fear and lies, and finally through sexual battery, both mentally and physically. Let the punishment begin….. ”TRUCK” THE CATHOLIC CHURCH…. violently!!!! and with fierce retribution

  46. Zara,

    I see you are still impervious and unable to see humor even when it bites you on the toe.

    “The hand of God guides the hand of man?” is to me a quite clear ironic dig in the ribs of those who believe in such crap as God guiding anything. I would hope that the article itself would have prepared you for that.

    OBVIOUSLY, the hand of God did not, nor anyone else, guide my hand. Only I did, which shows this invisible spirit’s indifference or his impotence. Considering the anti-religious views expressed in my aricle, he should have burnt it to a cinder and me with it.

    Ho hum, will you ever see past your hatreds?

    Doubt it.

    Thanks for giving me another lesson in the difficulty of imparting humor without the assistance of facial expression and body language.

  47. Zara,

    Your remedies remind of those employed by your enemy.
    Would you join them on the inquisition square, the massacre of blasphemers, the charnel house solutions so often used by mankind? Unfortunate.

  48. idealist707…. Revenge is the sweetest fruit…. The Katholickass church has skated by, immune to punishment, well deserved, for 2,000 years… Yes, let the RETRIBUTION begin….

  49. Let’s dose Bill Donahue Intraveneously and permanently with VIAGRA, then bend ‘Father Groeshel over the alter of his church, and have Donahue ‘Pork’ him till they both die…. And then, and only then, bury them together, in that position, in the church’s crypt, under the Vatican’t. I’d pay to see that one…………. ;-O I’m LMFAO!!!!

  50. And on the Eighth Day God created Dog. To watch over the humans and lead them not into temptation. And on the Twentieth Day He created the Temptations and a bit later the Four Tops. Monks were an afterthought, after He created rifles. Put them to good use.

  51. {Music]
    We went to the animal fair..
    The birds and beasts were there..
    The Old Babboon, by the light of the moon,
    was combing his auburn hair.

    The Monkey, he got drunk..
    And fell on the elephant’s trunk.
    The elephant sneezed, and fell on his knees and
    That was the end of the Monk….
    The Monk, the Monk, the Monk.!

    So what was the Monk doing to the elephant ?

  52. I like the comments of Zara on this blog on this particular topic. It is fun to read this topic and to talk about these self righteous pervs. When Sandusky goes up to the Pearly Gates old Saint Peter will have a stand-in that day. There is a special place in Hell for Sandusky and it aint some town on Lake Erie bearing his last name. I think Zara could better describe it for us and what it should entail for Jerry when he gets his assignment there.

  53. Thank you itchinbayDog….. but that’s not why I write what I write. I write what I write, because I believe in what I say…. As for the Katholickass Apologists who claim that the child Abuse Victims ”seduce” their tormentors…well then, I guess you can also say, Forking Geebus ”seduced” the Romans into Nailing his droopy ass to that cross!!!!

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